Jay needs extreme makeover

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Jay needs extreme makeover

Something Jake Plummer said to The Denver Post's Mike Klis last week jumped out at me.

No, it wasn't what Plummer said about ousted Broncos coach Mike Shanahan.

It was Plummer's assessment of his one-time teammate and quarterback successor, Jay Cutler.

"He's a great quarterback, don't get me wrong," Plummer said. "I'm not saying anything to disrespect him. I think he's a hell of a player. But Jeff George was a hell of a player. There's a lot of guys who have been great players."

It's a given: Great players and great talents are not necessarily great quarterbacks.

One of the reasons I winced when reading Plummer's comments, however, was that in a previous professional stop, I wrote a magazine story in 1995 that tackled the issue of whether a certain much-maligned, widely despised, and unquestionably highly talented NFL quarterback had — at long last — grown up.

While unrepentant and defiant about his earlier actions in college, and at Indianapolis, Jeff George — the top overall pick in the 1990 draft — persuaded me that he had matured, and he would become both a great quarterback and a leader in his second season with the Falcons.

So did his head coach, June Jones, and his position coach, Mouse Davis. The two run-and-shoot gurus were convincing, both on and off the record. I didn't have enough tape for all of Davis' raves about George's awe-inspiring talent.

What happened? George had a solid 1995 season for Atlanta, but in September 1996 he imploded on the sideline after being pulled in the third game of the season. He was suspended and never played for the Falcons again. I was left thinking that if he couldn't get along with the affable and respected Jones, who had staked his job and reputation on George, he couldn't get along with anybody. In 1997, he led the league in passing yards for a 4-12 Raiders team, but he never shook the image of an underachieving rockhead — and loser, in more ways than one — as he moved along from Oakland to Minnesota and Washington.

Unlike George, Cutler never will be accused of having a million-dollar arm, a dime-store attitude and a scarecrow's brain. He's not that bad, but being compared to George, even if it was done by a deposed quarterback who carries an ax with him in the Idaho woods, should give Cutler — and those around him — pause for additional thought.

How Cutler acts away from Dove Valley is his business, although one of the realities of his business is that tongues wag. Beyond that, and more important, he too often seems unconcerned about attempting to project the aura of class and leadership that the great quarterbacks have, both in the dressing and meeting rooms, and so many other places.

They have "it." Their teammates spot it. Their coaches feel it. The fans know it. Cutler doesn't yet have "it" and, even worse, doesn't seem to much care.

He deserves praise and perhaps occasional leeway for his battle with diabetes, and this is a guy who made it through four years at Vanderbilt, so he's not intellectually deficient. Yet that only goes so far.

I'm not into dress codes or mandatory use of hair spray and a brush, but it's all part of a package, and if you look like, well, a slob while doing interviews at the Super Bowl while the next young quarterback on the set looks as if he just stepped off the pages of Esquire, that doesn't help.

Eyes half-closed and an attitude of disinterest at the interview podium that makes it look as if you just awakened five minutes ago — even if you've been at Dove Valley for six hours — doesn't bolster the image, either.

Does any of that matter? Absolutely. The quarterback's unmatched responsibility as a leader, and his need to inspire and envelop others in that winner's aura, makes the ancillary issues important too. And that includes being likable, both by his teammates and everyone he comes in contact with.

Any quarterback's world is far different, also, in 2009 than it was in, say, 1985. The spotlight is brighter, the attention more relentless, the secrets fewer.

It's time for Cutler to be a great quarterback, and all that goes along with it. Or Plummer will be remembered not for being out of line, but for being the first to publicly note that George and Cutler have more in common than being native Hoosiers.

Terry Frei: 303-954-1895 or tfrei@denverpost.com

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_11613652

[claymore]

Terrible article IMO..... a bunch of unfounded Cutler bashing IMO.

[NightTrainLayne]

What a hatchet job.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Who is Terry Frei? Give me ~G Money.

[BroncoJoe]

Frei is a moron. The local media has been coming down hard on the kid because he doesn't enjoy interviews. BFD. He presents himself as very funny and likeable during his 1/2 hour show during the season on TV.

[NightTrainLayne]

Frei is a moron. The local media has been coming down hard on the kid because he doesn't enjoy interviews. BFD. He presents himself as very funny and likeable during his 1/2 hour show during the season on TV.

And while he's not GQ, he's certainly not a slob either. Ridiculous. Since when did off-season wardrobe become a factor in QB performance.

[BroncoJoe]

Elway had a mop-top when he first arrived here too. The media was frustrated with him because expectations were so high, and when not met, they threw him to the fire.

Hell, they even criticized the kind of candy he gave out at Halloween one year!

[LRtagger]

That article needs an extreme makeover

[topscribe]

Elway had a mop-top when he first arrived here too. The media was frustrated with him because expectations were so high, and when not met, they threw him to the fire.

Hell, they even criticized the kind of candy he gave out at Halloween one year!

At one point a lot of people wanted Elway clear out of Denver . . . and he nearly gave them their wish.

I haven't seen much criticism of players with dreadlocks halfway down to their butts.

Jay is a football player, not a fashion model, which is the genre in which Frei probably ought to be writing . . .

But thank you, Carol, for posting it.

-----

[TXBRONC]

Why would listen to Frei or Plummer on his assessment of Jay?

[Grover]

Just give 'em a day and Jay will be wowing them at the press conferences.

http://web.fineliving.com/fine/showPages/QueerEye/images/lg_header.jpg

[G_Money]

Seriously, that's an atrocious article.


How Cutler acts away from Dove Valley is his business, although one of the realities of his business is that tongues wag. Beyond that, and more important, he too often seems unconcerned about attempting to project the aura of class and leadership that the great quarterbacks have, both in the dressing and meeting rooms, and so many other places.

They have "it." Their teammates spot it. Their coaches feel it. The fans know it. Cutler doesn't yet have "it" and, even worse, doesn't seem to much care.

He deserves praise and perhaps occasional leeway for his battle with diabetes, and this is a guy who made it through four years at Vanderbilt, so he's not intellectually deficient. Yet that only goes so far.

I'm not into dress codes or mandatory use of hair spray and a brush, but it's all part of a package, and if you look like, well, a slob while doing interviews at the Super Bowl while the next young quarterback on the set looks as if he just stepped off the pages of Esquire, that doesn't help.

Bret Favre: Hard drinker, can't be bothered to shave, dresses like a good-ol-boy slob all the time, gets GOAT attention.

Dan Fouts: "Who's the greatest living quarterback? I am." Another slob.

Rich Gannon: Anger issues all the time, spouted off at the drop of a hat, had some of the best QB seasons ever at the end of his career once he found the right coach and they let him start.

There are various levels of Outsider Rebel QBs you can be. Some guys are George, and they never connect with their teammates or coaches. Some guys CAN - and all of Cutler's offensive teammates and coaches have seemed to love him thus far. The only times I've seen a real smile on Shanny's face the last two years are when he's talking about Cutler in a press conference. And the guys on defense he may have thrown under the bus pretty much deserved to be there and shouldn't be on the team next year.

If you want a GQ Pretty Boy QB, Terry, then no - Cutler is not your guy.

BUT THERE IS MORE THAN ONE TYPE OF QB WHO CAN BE SUCCESSFUL.

Some guys have weak arms. Some have laser, rocket-arms. Some guys are pocket passers, some are scramblers.

Some are GQ, some aren't. Elway WASN'T, by the way - he hated interviews, said he couldn't really like a teammate unless that teammate went drinking with him, told a team to buzz off when they drafted him, feuded with his head coach and barely knew what a tie looked like, let alone how to put it on. He wasn't a talker, or a locker-room leader - the Broncos had other guys for that, as you should KNOW, Terry.

And in a town dominated by the Legend of Elway you're knocking Cutler for not being a GQ quarterback? :rolleyes:

I know hockey's your sport, man, but I still expect better. There are things I think Cutler still has to work on. Shutting his trap more would be a good start. But he's been saying most of the right things this offseason. His work ethic is unquestioned. He listens to his coaches. His teammates don't seem to be sharpening shanks behind his back.

You were around George. If the comparisons to George don't hold water, because none of those things were true of George, then why would you not refute them? Saying "Oh, he'll never been a scarecrow brain like George, but still, someone compared them and it fits in with the smear article I'm writing so I'll repeat the comparison anyway" is lazy and beneath you.

Leave these articles for Kizla. They're his bag. He's the Jeff George of the Rocky Mountain region, after all.

~G

[Zweems56]

Seriously, that's an atrocious article.



Bret Favre: Hard drinker, can't be bothered to shave, dresses like a good-ol-boy slob all the time, gets GOAT attention.

Dan Fouts: "Who's the greatest living quarterback? I am." Another slob.

Rich Gannon: Anger issues all the time, spouted off at the drop of a hat, had some of the best QB seasons ever at the end of his career once he found the right coach and they let him start.

There are various levels of Outsider Rebel QBs you can be. Some guys are George, and they never connect with their teammates or coaches. Some guys CAN - and all of Cutler's offensive teammates and coaches have seemed to love him thus far. The only times I've seen a real smile on Shanny's face the last two years are when he's talking about Cutler in a press conference. And the guys on defense he may have thrown under the bus pretty much deserved to be there and shouldn't be on the team next year.

If you want a GQ Pretty Boy QB, Terry, then no - Cutler is not your guy.

BUT THERE IS MORE THAN ONE TYPE OF QB WHO CAN BE SUCCESSFUL.

Some guys have weak arms. Some have laser, rocket-arms. Some guys are pocket passers, some are scramblers.

Some are GQ, some aren't. Elway WASN'T, by the way - he hated interviews, said he couldn't really like a teammate unless that teammate went drinking with him, told a team to buzz off when they drafted him, feuded with his head coach and barely knew what a tie looked like, let alone how to put it on. He wasn't a talker, or a locker-room leader - the Broncos had other guys for that, as you should KNOW, Terry.

And in a town dominated by the Legend of Elway you're knocking Cutler for not being a GQ quarterback? :rolleyes:

I know hockey's your sport, man, but I still expect better. There are things I think Cutler still has to work on. Shutting his trap more would be a good start. But he's been saying most of the right things this offseason. His work ethic is unquestioned. He listens to his coaches. His teammates don't seem to be sharpening shanks behind his back.

You were around George. If the comparisons to George don't hold water, because none of those things were true of George, then why would you not refute them? Saying "Oh, he'll never been a scarecrow brain like George, but still, someone compared them and it fits in with the smear article I'm writing so I'll repeat the comparison anyway" is lazy and beneath you.

Leave these articles for Kizla. They're his bag. He's the Jeff George of the Rocky Mountain region, after all.

~G

I just want you to know that I follow you like a dog. When I see that you posted, i put every other thread aside to read it. I have a man crush. I'm sorry.

[Foochacho]

As long as he's not an Emo I don't care what he looks like.

[SR]

I have a man crush.

Back the **** off Zweems. I spotted him first! :lol:

Terrible article. I don't even like Frei's hockey articles.

[LRtagger]

I'll take Cutler over pretty-boy Leinart any day.

[dogfish]

these george comparisons are a complete crock of shit! jay's already a FAR better QB than that hack ever was. . . . this junk needs to stop. . . .

[TXBRONC]

these george comparisons are a complete crock of shit! jay's already a FAR better QB than that hack ever was. . . . this junk needs to stop. . . .

Well it's like I tell my 5 year-old, you flush turds down the toilet.

[Watchthemiddle]

Oh man, you guys are such hypocrites. Remember the Plummer bashing when he had his long hair and beard by all of you on here? Huh, my how the times have changed and YOU don't like it.

You guys don't like the fact that your precious Cutler is not really well liked by people in Denver. As I said in another thread, the local sports talk shows all agree with ME. Turn on FM 104.3 the fan right now and listen. I am not alone in this....there are some of us who aren't drinking the Cutler Koolaid

[BroncoJoe]

Oh man, you guys are such hypocrites. Remember the Plummer bashing when he had his long hair and beard by all of you on here? Huh, my how the times have changed and YOU don't like it.

You guys don't like the fact that your precious Cutler is not really well liked by people in Denver. As I said in another thread, the local sports talk shows all agree with ME. Turn on FM 104.3 the fan right now and listen. I am not alone in this....there are some of us who aren't drinking the Cutler Koolaid

You're in the minority. The "local sports talk shows" are throwing gas on smoldering coals hoping for a story. Nothing more, nothing less.

[dogfish]

Oh man, you guys are such hypocrites. Remember the Plummer bashing when he had his long hair and beard by all of you on here? Huh, my how the times have changed and YOU don't like it.

huh? i never said one thing about jake's appearance-- didn't mean a thing to me, all i cared about was his performance on the field, which provided more than enough basis for criticism in its own right. . . .



You guys don't like the fact that your precious Cutler is not really well liked by people in Denver. As I said in another thread, the local sports talk shows all agree with ME. Turn on FM 104.3 the fan right now and listen. I am not alone in this....there are some of us who aren't drinking the Cutler Koolaid

let me know when anyone actually gives a shit what those talking heads have to say. . . . ;)

[NightTrainLayne]

huh? i never said one thing about jake's appearance-- didn't mean a thing to me, all i cared about was his performance on the field, which provided more than enough basis for criticism in its own right. . . .




let me know when anyone actually gives a shit what those talking heads have to say. . . . ;)

Exactly. I would have said the same thing if anyone criticized Plummer for his appearance. It just doesn't have a damn thing to do with someone's performance on the field.

I don't like the way Bellichick dresses, but he sure does coach pretty well in those bum-like outfits, so more power to him.

[Watchthemiddle]

All i'm saying is guys like Alfred Williams and myself know what we are talking about. We live in the real world, not some fantasy message board life. Until Jeff errr Jay gets better on the Field and off, he will be highly scrutinized by fans and the local media.

[G_Money]

Oh man, you guys are such hypocrites. Remember the Plummer bashing when he had his long hair and beard by all of you on here? Huh, my how the times have changed and YOU don't like it.

You guys don't like the fact that your precious Cutler is not really well liked by people in Denver. As I said in another thread, the local sports talk shows all agree with ME. Turn on FM 104.3 the fan right now and listen. I am not alone in this....there are some of us who aren't drinking the Cutler Koolaid

*blinks* Fans don't have to like players.

Players don't win because fans like them. You won't find any people NOW who admit they were all for Dan Reeves and his Tommy Maddox decision, when he decided John would never win him the big one and was too much trouble. But there were a lot. Elway was a bum before he was the greatest QB of all time.

Cutler just went to a Pro Bowl, with a top-5 passing offense...and had another playoff-less season while his team struggled to run the ball or play even adequate defense.

Know what that sounds like? 1994. We fired Wade Phillips after that year because he was turning a HOF QB into a mediocre producer of wins, and hired offensive genius Shanahan to fix the issue.

And then the Elway-haters had to pretend like they'd always been on Elway's side, screw that Maddox thing and that "can't win the big one" thing and that "second-rate, too-turnover-prone" thing.

Here's hoping McDaniels can bring similar results and turn Cutler haters into "I never said that" backpedallers.

I was one of the people who said we'd never win it all with Plummer, btw. And his subsequent actions and the stories that came out later proved those feelings to be correct. I believe Cutler is not Plummer. Does he have issues to overcome? Yes. Anyone who was on these boards during the season knows I can be as hard on Cutler as anyone.

Is it a LITTLE early to call him Jeff George, the man who blew through more teams than tubs of Kleenex? Yeah...just a LITTLE.:rolleyes:

But don't worry - Cutler will get his chance to prove people right or wrong about him. One of us will get our chance to eat crow in the next decade.

Have a feeling it's gonna be you, though. ;)

~G

[Kapaibro]

The guy has not said that George is a better QB. No one has. The article seems to me, to be more about the air that Cutler projects, off field.

Hair cut aside, which I hate with a fiery passion as it makes him look even chubbier in the face, Cutler should TRY to project a slightly more professional attitude. Especially if he is giving an interview at the SuperBowl.

Would it really hurt him to look somewhat enthused to be the leader of this team? Surely at least trying to look like a leader would be a step towards actual leadership?

No one here wants a Leinart, for sure, but Leinart doesn't really have the skills to match his looks. But lets look at another couple of young QB's, Rothlisberger and Manning, when they give interviews, they are clear spoken and articulate. Yes, Ben did go 'Plummer' one season, but he always looked awake under that beard (as did Plummer).

Keep the hair or whatever Jay, just stand up straight, speak clearly, and look like you actually care about being the QB for Denver.

[G_Money]

The guy has not said that George is a better QB. No one has. The article seems to me, to be more about the air that Cutler projects, off field.

Hair cut aside, which I hate with a fiery passion as it makes him look even chubbier in the face, Cutler should TRY to project a slightly more professional attitude. Especially if he is giving an interview at the SuperBowl.

Would it really hurt him to look somewhat enthused to be the leader of this team? Surely at least trying to look like a leader would be a step towards actual leadership?

No one here wants a Leinart, for sure, but Leinart doesn't really have the skills to match his looks. But lets look at another couple of young QB's, Rothlisberger and Manning, when they give interviews, they are clear spoken and articulate. Yes, Ben did go 'Plummer' one season, but he always looked awake under that beard (as did Plummer).

Keep the hair or whatever Jay, just stand up straight, speak clearly, and look like you actually care about being the QB for Denver.

You must mean P. Manning, because E. Manning looks and sounds a lot like Cutler. And P. Manning threw his OL under the bus a couple years ago after a loss, IIRC.

Ben crashed his motorcycle that he wasn't supposed to have and nearly killed himself or ended his career.

Giving a bad interview is not the end of the universe for a QB. My current concern about Cutler is that he reminds me of Marino, yelling at his guys and blaming them when things don't go his way. But Marshall, Royal, the OL...none of those guys are bailing on him. None of them seem to have any issues whatsoever with Cutler.

So I'm more inclined to say that the issues with Cutler are of a press-relations nature and not an on-the-field nature.

Which is good. Cutler can keep saying stupid things about Elway's arm strength if his field generalship is good and keeps improving.

Because every QB says stupid things. The microphone's in their faces too often for it to be any other way.

~G

[TXBRONC]

Oh man, you guys are such hypocrites. Remember the Plummer bashing when he had his long hair and beard by all of you on here? Huh, my how the times have changed and YOU don't like it.

You guys don't like the fact that your precious Cutler is not really well liked by people in Denver. As I said in another thread, the local sports talk shows all agree with ME. Turn on FM 104.3 the fan right now and listen. I am not alone in this....there are some of us who aren't drinking the Cutler Koolaid

I had my criticisms of Plummer but I didn't give a rat's ass that he went around looking unkempt.

You want to talk about being hypocritical look no further than the man you see in mirror. You were one of those over on Broncomania that ranted about how Jake's appears shouldn't have been an issue and now you're doing the exact opposit here.

Big freakin deal if you and a minority of people don't like Jay. John and Jake both went the same thing, so get off your high horse.

[BroncoJoe]

All i'm saying is guys like Alfred Williams and myself know what we are talking about. We live in the real world, not some fantasy message board life. Until Jeff errr Jay gets better on the Field and off, he will be highly scrutinized by fans and the local media.

Nealy 5,000 posts and you don't live "some fansasy message board life" ?

Give me a break.

[JKcatch724]

Oh man, you guys are such hypocrites. Remember the Plummer bashing when he had his long hair and beard by all of you on here? Huh, my how the times have changed and YOU don't like it.

That's because Plummer sucked on top of looking like a bum.

And let's talk about hypocrisy for a second... Cutler doesn't care??? Cutler's the one who puts in the offseason workouts in Atlanta with teammates to create better chemistry, and the one chatting up the Mannings about Cover 2 defenses, and on and on. Sorry he's not a hyperactive kissass like the majority of the QBs in the league...

Plummer cared so little that he actually left the NFL to play handball in Idaho.

And since when are some talking heads' opinions on the radio any better than ours on here?

[TXBRONC]

All i'm saying is guys like Alfred Williams and myself know what we are talking about. We live in the real world, not some fantasy message board life. Until Jeff errr Jay gets better on the Field and off, he will be highly scrutinized by fans and the local media.

Right you know what you're talking about. Me thinks not.

[Lonestar]

these george comparisons are a complete crock of shit! jay's already a FAR better QB than that hack ever was. . . . this junk needs to stop. . . .


http://www.nfl.com/players/jeffgeorge/profile?id=GEO276861

perhaps not..


Season Team Passing Rushing Fumbles
G GS Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rate Att Yds Avg TD FUM Lost
1995 Falcons 16 16 336 557 60.3 4,143 7.4 24 11 43 270 89.5 27 17 0.6 0 6 2
1994 Falcons 16 16 322 524 61.5 3,734 7.1 23 18 32 206 83.3 30 66 2.2 0 12 4
vs.

2008 Broncos 16 16 384 616 62.3 4,526 7.3 25 18 11 69 86.0 57 200 3.5 2 5 2
2007 Broncos 16 16 297 467 63.6 3,497 7.5 20 14 27 153 88.1 44 205 4.7 1 11 4


http://www.nfl.com/players/jaycutler/profile?id=CUT288111

look alot alike to me if you compare the first two back to back 16 games seasons..

[Broncos Mtnman]

I'm not into dress codes or mandatory use of hair spray and a brush, but it's all part of a package, and if you look like, well, a slob while doing interviews at the Super Bowl while the next young quarterback on the set looks as if he just stepped off the pages of Esquire, that doesn't help.

Yeah, Jake was a "real" GQ......

http://thefeed.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/jake.jpg

[JKcatch724]

http://www.nfl.com/players/jeffgeorge/profile?id=GEO276861

perhaps not..


Season Team Passing Rushing Fumbles
G GS Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rate Att Yds Avg TD FUM Lost
1995 Falcons 16 16 336 557 60.3 4,143 7.4 24 11 43 270 89.5 27 17 0.6 0 6 2
1994 Falcons 16 16 322 524 61.5 3,734 7.1 23 18 32 206 83.3 30 66 2.2 0 12 4
vs.

2008 Broncos 16 16 384 616 62.3 4,526 7.3 25 18 11 69 86.0 57 200 3.5 2 5 2
2007 Broncos 16 16 297 467 63.6 3,497 7.5 20 14 27 153 88.1 44 205 4.7 1 11 4


http://www.nfl.com/players/jaycutler/profile?id=CUT288111

look alot alike to me if you compare the first two back to back 16 games seasons..

Those aren't Jeff George's first two years as a starter.

[Broncos Mtnman]

All i'm saying is guys like Alfred Williams and myself know what we are talking about. We live in the real world, not some fantasy message board life. Until Jeff errr Jay gets better on the Field and off, he will be highly scrutinized by fans and the local media.

Wow, Alfred Williams agrees with YOU?

:coffee:

[Lonestar]

Those aren't Jeff George's first two years as a starter.

did not say they were I said their first two years playing 16 games about the only way one can show apples and apples..

[G_Money]

Those were his 5th and 6th seasons, Jr, for his 2nd team.

And he got thrown off that team the next year.

And then bounced around pissing off teammates and coaches until he was unemployable, even WITH one of the greatest arms the league had ever seen.

George is a good comparison only if you consider that George had a great arm and was unpleasant in interviews.

So was Dan Fouts. He was an okay QB.

There are other comparisons out there. The comparison you choose says more about you than it does about Jay at this point in his career. We're all myopic in our dissection of his strengths and weaknesses, and prone to bias.

~G

[Fan in Exile]

did not say they were I said their first two years playing 16 games about the only way one can show apples and apples..

That is both not true and misleading. George started 16 games in 1991, when he went 1-15. By 1994 he had started 49 games which is far higher than Jay Cutler's 7 before his first full year as a starter.

The other glaring problem with it is that the comparison isn't about their skills it's about their attitudes so posting stats isn't going to in anyway show that their attitudes are the same.

[Lonestar]

Those were his 5th and 6th seasons, Jr, for his 2nd team.

And he got thrown off that team the next year.

And then bounced around pissing off teammates and coaches until he was unemployable, even WITH one of the greatest arms the league had ever seen.

George is a good comparison only if you consider that George had a great arm and was unpleasant in interviews.

So was Dan Fouts. He was an okay QB.

There are other comparisons out there. The comparison you choose says more about you than it does about Jay at this point in his career. We're all myopic in our dissection of his strengths and weaknesses, and prone to bias.

~G

some one said they had nothing in common I merely pointed out that he does have a strong arm, he was known to be a coach killer and his numbers were about the same comparing two full seasons.. that is all..

I like Jay hope he does great here and knowing that he has a few flaws hope he corrects them..

I hope that corrects my "myopic" view in your eyes..

[honz]

Dear lord. This thread will go on for a few weeks I'm sure.

Jay is a human being and he has a personality just like everyone else. His personality, at least in interviews, seems to be a guy with a sorta sarcastic, dry sense of humor. The dude is pretty funny in some of his interviews. IMO, he shouldn't have to pretend to be some outgoing guy that is chipper all the time. So what if the guy is soft spoken and has a monotone voice...I do too, but people don't dislike me for it. Well not most, at least. :D

As for his play, yeah he makes mistakes, but he also had defenses loading up to stop the pass almost the entire season since our running game was totally inconsistent. He still took a team with a sub-par running game, and possibly the worst defense in the league to the verge of a playoff berth. He needs to improve in some areas, but hell I'd say he did alright for his 2nd season as a full time starter. I understand that he will never be good enough to some until he wins a Super Bowl, but this article and some of the comments in this thread are ridiculous.

Just win a damn Super Bowl, Jay, and shut these fools up please!

[honz]

some one said they had nothing in common I merely pointed out that he does have a strong arm, he was known to be a coach killer and his numbers were about the same comparing two full seasons.. that is all..

I like Jay hope he does great here and knowing that he has a few flaws hope he corrects them..

I hope that corrects my "myopic" view in your eyes..

Jay is a coach killer? I don't think Jay's performance had anything to do with Shanny's firing...

[Lonestar]

Originally Posted by dogfish
these george comparisons are a complete crock of shit! jay's already a FAR better QB than that hack ever was.


http://www.nfl.com/players/jeffgeorge/profile?id=GEO276861

perhaps not..


Season Team Passing Rushing Fumbles
G GS Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rate Att Yds Avg TD FUM Lost
1995 Falcons 16 16 336 557 60.3 4,143 7.4 24 11 43 270 89.5 27 17 0.6 0 6 2
1994 Falcons 16 16 322 524 61.5 3,734 7.1 23 18 32 206 83.3 30 66 2.2 0 12 4
vs.

2008 Broncos 16 16 384 616 62.3 4,526 7.3 25 18 11 69 86.0 57 200 3.5 2 5 2
2007 Broncos 16 16 297 467 63.6 3,497 7.5 20 14 27 153 88.1 44 205 4.7 1 11 4


http://www.nfl.com/players/jaycutler/profile?id=CUT288111

look alot alike to me if you compare the first two back to back 16 games seasons..


That is both not true and misleading. George started 16 games in 1991, when he went 1-15. By 1994 he had started 49 games which is far higher than Jay Cutler's 7 before his first full year as a starter.

The other glaring problem with it is that the comparison isn't about their skills it's about their attitudes so posting stats isn't going to in anyway show that their attitudes are the same.

I was doing nothing but showing some numbers and said nothing in the post about attitudes..

Dog said they were not comparable and thought I'd dispel that they were.

[Lonestar]

Jay is a coach killer? I don't think Jay's performance had anything to do with Shanny's firing...

Is mikey still here?

Did mikey place all his trust in Jay saving his job?

Did mikey do anything the past two years to really improve the defense? opposed to beef up the O under Jay?

Looks to me that mikeys thought he could weather the Storm that was a brewing by trying to out score everyone.. instead of taking REAL action on the other side of the ball..

Sorry if that hurts Y'alls feeling but the fact is Jay is here and mikey is not..

[Watchthemiddle]

This is by far my all time favorite thread.

I love seeing all the Jay Crushler fans squirming because their wonder boy is getting called out.

And yes, Alfred two time Super Bowl Champ All Pro Williams agrees with me.

THanks for playing.

Next.

:coffee:

[Watchthemiddle]

Dear lord. This thread will go on for a few weeks I'm sure.

Jay is a human being and he has a personality just like everyone else. His personality, at least in interviews, seems to be a guy with a sorta sarcastic, dry sense of humor. The dude is pretty funny in some of his interviews. IMO, he shouldn't have to pretend to be some outgoing guy that is chipper all the time. So what if the guy is soft spoken and has a monotone voice...I do too, but people don't dislike me for it. Well not most, at least. :D

As for his play, yeah he makes mistakes, but he also had defenses loading up to stop the pass almost the entire season since our running game was totally inconsistent. He still took a team with a sub-par running game, and possibly the worst defense in the league to the verge of a playoff berth. He needs to improve in some areas, but hell I'd say he did alright for his 2nd season as a full time starter. I understand that he will never be good enough to some until he wins a Super Bowl, but this article and some of the comments in this thread are ridiculous.

Just win a damn Super Bowl, Jay, and shut these fools up please!

My my my....how the shoe is on the other foot now....

ROFL


:laugh::laugh:

[Watchthemiddle]

Yeah, Jake was a "real" GQ......

http://thefeed.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/jake.jpg

You seemed to like to bash him on his beard and long hair. Are you now changing your tune for your Jay Crushler man crush?

Ha ha ha ahaha


thanks for playing

Next

:coffee:

[omac]

I just want you to know that I follow you like a dog. When I see that you posted, i put every other thread aside to read it. I have a man crush. I'm sorry.

LOL :D Yeah, I like G_Money's posts too, but that was funny.

[Fan in Exile]

I was doing nothing but showing some numbers and said nothing in the post about attitudes..

Dog said they were not comparable and thought I'd dispel that they were.

You did dispel the thought that they were comparable. Face it Jr you were wrong the numbers don't compare and their attitudes don't either.

[Lonestar]

You did dispel the thought that they were comparable. Face it Jr you were wrong the numbers don't compare and their attitudes don't either.

if you say so I'll believe you.. :laugh::laugh:

[JKcatch724]

This is by far my all time favorite thread.

I love seeing all the Jay Crushler fans squirming because their wonder boy is getting called out.

And yes, Alfred two time Super Bowl Champ All Pro Williams agrees with me.

THanks for playing.

Next.

:coffee:

lol... first of all, did you just high-five yourself?

second, congrats on Alfred Williams agreeing with you. I bow down to your superiority. :rolleyes:

[TXBRONC]

You did dispel the thought that they were comparable. Face it Jr you were wrong the numbers don't compare and their attitudes don't either.

Jr and WTM have proven something. They each have an axe to grind.

[TXBRONC]

lol... first of all, did you just high-five yourself?

second, congrats on Alfred Williams agreeing with you. I bow down to your superiority. :rolleyes:

He high-fived himself three times.

[JKcatch724]

Is mikey still here?

Did mikey place all his trust in Jay saving his job?

Did mikey do anything the past two years to really improve the defense? opposed to beef up the O under Jay?

Looks to me that mikeys thought he could weather the Storm that was a brewing by trying to out score everyone.. instead of taking REAL action on the other side of the ball..

Sorry if that hurts Y'alls feeling but the fact is Jay is here and mikey is not..

You just answered your first question with the rest of this post, Jr. It's Shanahan's own fault he's gone given those exact reasons. It's not Jay's job to revamp the defense.

[JKcatch724]

He high-fived himself three times.

I didn't think that was possible :laugh:

[honz]

Is mikey still here?

Did mikey place all his trust in Jay saving his job?

Did mikey do anything the past two years to really improve the defense? opposed to beef up the O under Jay?

Looks to me that mikeys thought he could weather the Storm that was a brewing by trying to out score everyone.. instead of taking REAL action on the other side of the ball..

Sorry if that hurts Y'alls feeling but the fact is Jay is here and mikey is not..

How is Jay to blame for Shanny totally neglecting the defense and blowing numerous draft picks on the D side of the ball?

[Fan in Exile]

lol... first of all, did you just high-five yourself?

second, congrats on Alfred Williams agreeing with you. I bow down to your superiority. :rolleyes:

Some how I never figured out that you could high five yourself.

[TXBRONC]

I didn't think that was possible :laugh:

There was wrestler who used to high-five himself all the time. :lol:

[omac]

*blinks* Fans don't have to like players.

Players don't win because fans like them. You won't find any people NOW who admit they were all for Dan Reeves and his Tommy Maddox decision, when he decided John would never win him the big one and was too much trouble. But there were a lot. Elway was a bum before he was the greatest QB of all time.

Cutler just went to a Pro Bowl, with a top-5 passing offense...and had another playoff-less season while his team struggled to run the ball or play even adequate defense.

Know what that sounds like? 1994. We fired Wade Phillips after that year because he was turning a HOF QB into a mediocre producer of wins, and hired offensive genius Shanahan to fix the issue.

And then the Elway-haters had to pretend like they'd always been on Elway's side, screw that Maddox thing and that "can't win the big one" thing and that "second-rate, too-turnover-prone" thing.

Here's hoping McDaniels can bring similar results and turn Cutler haters into "I never said that" backpedallers.

I was one of the people who said we'd never win it all with Plummer, btw. And his subsequent actions and the stories that came out later proved those feelings to be correct. I believe Cutler is not Plummer. Does he have issues to overcome? Yes. Anyone who was on these boards during the season knows I can be as hard on Cutler as anyone.

Is it a LITTLE early to call him Jeff George, the man who blew through more teams than tubs of Kleenex? Yeah...just a LITTLE.:rolleyes:

But don't worry - Cutler will get his chance to prove people right or wrong about him. One of us will get our chance to eat crow in the next decade.

Have a feeling it's gonna be you, though. ;)

~G

Great post as usual.

Analysts, coaches, players, other teams fans ... all of them can see what a special player Cutler is. Only die hard Plummer fans can make their bitterness blind them to what is so obvious to everyone else. :coffee:

[omac]

He high-fived himself three times.

What an excellent idea! :D

[Slick]

to me all that matters is performance on the field, be it Jay Cutler, Jake Plummer or Michael Phelps. ;)

I doubt any of us could be as gracious if we had to do so many interviews, have microphones shoved in out faces constantly, get bugged for autographs while out to dinner, etc.

He's still a kid, he's growing every day, same as we all did.

[JKcatch724]

to me all that matters is performance on the field, be it Jay Cutler, Jake Plummer or Michael Phelps. ;)

I doubt any of us could be as gracious if we had to do so many interviews, have microphones shoved in out faces constantly, get bugged for autographs while out to dinner, etc.

He's still a kid, he's growing every day, same as we all did.

That deserves a self-five, Slick.

[Broncos Mtnman]

He high-fived himself three times.

If he doesn't, no one else will.....

Well, except for JR.... :laugh:

[Broncos Mtnman]

You seemed to like to bash him on his beard and long hair. Are you now changing your tune for your Jay Crushler man crush?

Ha ha ha ahaha


thanks for playing

Next

:coffee:

Jay Crushler? How long did it take you to come up with that one? Or, did Alfred Williams and you come up with that one together?

Yep, I had a problem with Jake's hippie look. The reason I brought it up was in response to the article that made a big deal about Jay not looking like he just stepped out of Esquire. As the picture shows, the writer demonstrated a clear double standard calling out Cutler when St. Jake looked like an extra from the musical Hair.

I don't have a "man-crush," but Jay is my adopted Bronco.

:coffee:

[Simple Jaded]

Give credit where credit is due, it's hard to whine about the QB not being SEXY enough for you without sounding like a total fag, Frei almost pulls it off.......

[Simple Jaded]

He high-fived himself three times.

Shit, I didn't know we could high five ourself.......game one, dude.......

[TXBRONC]

With all the self high-fives I wonder Diamond Dallas Page is in the house? :laugh:

[Simple Jaded]

This is by far my all time favorite thread.

I love seeing all the Jay Crushler fans squirming because their wonder boy is getting called out.

And yes, Alfred two time Super Bowl Champ All Pro Williams agrees with me.

THanks for playing.

Next.

:coffee:

Alfred Williams is a Jake Plummer fan, much like yourself, objective he is not.

Btw, he also thinks Keith Burns should still be playing.......Mike Pioli he is not.

Thanks for playin.......

[TXBRONC]

Give credit where credit is due, it's hard to whine about the QB not being SEXY enough for you without sounding like a total fag, Frei almost pulls it off.......

Either that or he has sever man crush on Jake.

[Simple Jaded]

Either that or he has sever man crush on Jake.

There is a lot of that going around, hope it's not contagious.

While we're on the subject of Plummer, what exactly has Cutler done wrong since coming to Denver?

If the Plummer Groupies could clear that one up I'd appreciate it.......

[dogfish]

There is a lot of that going around, hope it's not contagious.

While we're on the subject of Plummer, what exactly has Cutler done wrong since coming to Denver?

If the Plummer Groupies could clear that one up I'd appreciate it.......


got drafted to replace a QB that a few people really seemed to like for some mysterious reason. . . if mtnman hadn't spent so much time ripping jake to shreds over on mania, they probably wouldn't hold such a grudge against jay. . . :laugh:

[BroncoJoe]

LMAO at some of the statements in here.

[Simple Jaded]

Tony Romo: Great personality + GQ good looks + Great defense + Great offense + Smokin hot piece = No playoffs.......

[Lonestar]

How is Jay to blame for Shanny totally neglecting the defense and blowing numerous draft picks on the D side of the ball?

If you have not figured this one out by yourself. What ever I say will be not enough.. We will have to agree to disagree..

[Simple Jaded]

got drafted to replace a QB that a few people really seemed to like for some mysterious reason. . . if mtnman hadn't spent so much time ripping jake to shreds over on mania, they probably wouldn't hold such a grudge against jay. . . :laugh:

That's exactly what it is.......

[BroncoJoe]

This is by far my all time favorite thread.

I love seeing all the Jay Crushler fans squirming because their wonder boy is getting called out.

And yes, Alfred two time Super Bowl Champ All Pro Williams agrees with me.

THanks for playing.

Next.

:coffee:


My my my....how the shoe is on the other foot now....

ROFL


:laugh::laugh:


You seemed to like to bash him on his beard and long hair. Are you now changing your tune for your Jay Crushler man crush?

Ha ha ha ahaha


thanks for playing

Next

:coffee:

How about posting something substantiative?

[Slick]

got drafted to replace a QB that a few people really seemed to like for some mysterious reason. . . if mtnman hadn't spent so much time ripping jake to shreds over on mania, they probably wouldn't hold such a grudge against jay. . . :laugh:

mtnman was relentless, but others we're almost just as...I'm still suprised at all the passion this topic brings.

The argument used to always boil down to "we win as a team, lose as a team"

Funny how that gets thrown out the window to meet certain posters needs.

[Foochacho]

Tony Romo: Great personality + GQ good looks + Great defense + Great offense + Smokin hot piece = No playoffs.......

Fag













lol

[Watchthemiddle]

Wow now i have a watchcrush! Thanks

[Simple Jaded]

Fag













lol

Not that there's anything wrong with that.......

[Broncospsycho77]

LOL at the article.

Let him friggin' develop a career before he's subject to criticism. If this is going to be the offseason-quality of articles... it's gonna suck hard this offseason.

New coach. New scheme. Certainly new personnel here and there. Let's let Jay be Jay until Jay becomes the problem. Right now... he's gonna play in the Pro Bowl after a pretty decent year stat-wise and growth-wise. A journey of a thousand miles...

[TXBRONC]

LOL at the article.

Let him friggin' develop a career before he's subject to criticism. If this is going to be the offseason-quality of articles... it's gonna suck hard this offseason.

New coach. New scheme. Certainly new personnel here and there. Let's let Jay be Jay until Jay becomes the problem. Right now... he's gonna play in the Pro Bowl after a pretty decent year stat-wise and growth-wise. A journey of a thousand miles...

I have no problem with this.

[Broncos Mtnman]

got drafted to replace a QB that a few people really seemed to like for some mysterious reason. . . if mtnman hadn't spent so much time ripping jake to shreds over on mania, they probably wouldn't hold such a grudge against jay. . . :laugh:


http://avatarfarm.com/avatarimages/movies/drevilpinkeyavatar.jpg
Ladies and Gentlemen welcome to my underground lair. MWAHAHAHAHAHA....

[Slick]

http://avatarfarm.com/avatarimages/movies/drevilpinkeyavatar.jpg
Ladies and Gentlemen welcome to my underground lair. MWAHAHAHAHAHA....

You were good man. No doubt. If it weren't for rules on cp's, you'd have gotten all of mine.

[Simple Jaded]

LOL at the article.

Let him friggin' develop a career before he's subject to criticism. If this is going to be the offseason-quality of articles... it's gonna suck hard this offseason.

New coach. New scheme. Certainly new personnel here and there. Let's let Jay be Jay until Jay becomes the problem. Right now... he's gonna play in the Pro Bowl after a pretty decent year stat-wise and growth-wise. A journey of a thousand miles...

Yeah but.......but.......but.......Alfred Williams agrees.......Yes! THAT Alfred Williams! :cool:.......

[Watchthemiddle]

When you guys have actually put on a helmet, won 2 Super Bowls, is an All pro, and has played with a QB that KNOWS what it takes to WIN and LEAD let me know. Until then...thanks for playing... Next

[G_Money]

So we should keep track of Alfred Williams and his statements, and whatever he says you'll agree with, since he won 2 Super Bowls, is an All Pro, and has played with a QB that KNOWS what it takes to WIN and LEAD?

That's great!

We'll just post Alfred's thoughts on all things, put you down for a ditto, and you don't even have to post. Win-win there, since you're adding less than nothing to any discussion.

I'm just curious why Alfred's opinion is the only one that matters. Elway seems to think Cutler will be fine, and he was sort of that QB that Alfred is basing his assessment off of, according to you.

Schlereth thinks Cutler'll be okay, and he was on the OL that kept that QB that KNOWS what it takes to WIN and LEAD alive.

Is the reason Williams is more right because he talks more about the Broncos? Because he played on the other side of the ball? Because he agrees with you?

Because if I don't have the right to disagree with Williams and his assessment, do other guys who played have the right?

~G

[slim]

Luckily, I was on the crapper when I read this story...so I had something to wipe with.

[Fan in Exile]

When you guys have actually put on a helmet, won 2 Super Bowls, is an All pro, and has played with a QB that KNOWS what it takes to WIN and LEAD let me know. Until then...thanks for playing... Next

Please just stop saying thanks for playing. This has been a pretty stupid discussion all in all but that's really just driving me nuts.

[dogfish]

When you guys have actually put on a helmet, won 2 Super Bowls, is an All pro, and has played with a QB that KNOWS what it takes to WIN and LEAD let me know. Until then...thanks for playing... Next


steve young always has great things to say about cutler. . .


steve young >>>>> alfred williams



:cool:

[Broncos Mtnman]

steve young always has great things to say about cutler. . .


steve young >>>>> alfred williams



:cool:

You know, I was going to post that Steve Young agrees with me about Jay, but I didn't want to show up Alfred.....

:coffee:

[TXBRONC]

steve young always has great things to say about cutler. . .


steve young >>>>> alfred williams



:cool:

Ron Jaworski agrees with you as well.

Ron Jaworski > Alfred Williams

[rcsodak]

Oh man, you guys are such hypocrites. Remember the Plummer bashing when he had his long hair and beard by all of you on here? Huh, my how the times have changed and YOU don't like it.

You guys don't like the fact that your precious Cutler is not really well liked by people in Denver. As I said in another thread, the local sports talk shows all agree with ME. Turn on FM 104.3 the fan right now and listen. I am not alone in this....there are some of us who aren't drinking the Cutler Koolaid

WTM, they can post their jake-hating articles, and ridicule/demean him, but the same cannot be said for cutler articles that aren't glimmering with accolades.

Can you say, insecure? :coffee:

[claymore]

WTM, they can post their jake-hating articles, and ridicule/demean him, but the same cannot be said for cutler articles that aren't glimmering with accolades.

Can you say, insecure? :coffee:

Are you the mother of Jakes child or something? The guy was a total Douche bag. He was terrible, he was a cancer.

He had his chance, he stunk so bad that Shannahan had to pull him. He lost his starting Job to a kid.

[rcsodak]

I had my criticisms of Plummer but I didn't give a rat's ass that he went around looking unkempt.

You want to talk about being hypocritical look no further than the man you see in mirror. You were one of those over on Broncomania that ranted about how Jake's appears shouldn't have been an issue and now you're doing the exact opposit here.

Big freakin deal if you and a minority of people don't like Jay. John and Jake both went the same thing, so get off your high horse.

Huh?

I won't be childish and go back and pull up names of those that bashed jake on his beard/hair/mustache. But let's just say....THERE'S A FEW!

As far as WTM being hypocritical....it's called "using their own words". Throwing back at those that used them, to make a point. Figured you'd understand that, tx.

And I don't believe WTM, or anybody else here, unlike you jake-haters, has EVER come out and said they didn't like jay.

But like Hillary said: it's patriotic to criticize people in leadership.

:salute:

[G_Money]

WTM, they can post their jake-hating articles, and ridicule/demean him, but the same cannot be said for cutler articles that aren't glimmering with accolades.

Can you say, insecure? :coffee:

Jake was demeaned for things that were true, and proven to be more true as the years went on. They're still true.

I don't have any problem with Jay being demeaned for things that are also true.

Jay = Jeff George is demonstrably not true at this point in the way he relates to players and coaches, and things would have to go completely to pieces for it to EVER be a valid comparison.

Brandon Marshall = Rae Carruth would be a similarly horrible comparison for their off-the-field issues. I mean, both guys blocked their girlfriend's car in, right?

:rolleyes:

Jay has weaknesses. I happen to prefer articles that provide insight into those weaknesses, and not ones that make up weaknesses he doesn't have just to prove a point that isn't valid.

~G

[Shazam!]

Jake looked like a crackhead who lived under a bridge with the hair. He was at press conferences looking like a hippy in his potato-sack sweaters which I thought was disgraceful. He's filthy and an embarassment to the Franchise.

The Mannings and Brady wear suits. Cutler too in most PC's I saw looked professional.

That's one area I agree with the NY Yankess (who I HATE.) They have a strict appearance policy on hair and clothes as they represent the Organization. You're supposed to be a professional. Look professional.

I think it's even worse with some other players doing PC's with doo-rags and sunglasses and stuff like that. More worried more about being street than being a professional. The League should od something about that.

[rcsodak]

Those were his 5th and 6th seasons, Jr, for his 2nd team.

And he got thrown off that team the next year.

And then bounced around pissing off teammates and coaches until he was unemployable, even WITH one of the greatest arms the league had ever seen.

George is a good comparison only if you consider that George had a great arm and was unpleasant in interviews.

So was Dan Fouts. He was an okay QB.

There are other comparisons out there. The comparison you choose says more about you than it does about Jay at this point in his career. We're all myopic in our dissection of his strengths and weaknesses, and prone to bias.

~G

Coulda swore he was wearing a yellow jacket..... :confused:

[rcsodak]

Dear lord. This thread will go on for a few weeks I'm sure.

Jay is a human being and he has a personality just like everyone else. His personality, at least in interviews, seems to be a guy with a sorta sarcastic, dry sense of humor. The dude is pretty funny in some of his interviews. IMO, he shouldn't have to pretend to be some outgoing guy that is chipper all the time. So what if the guy is soft spoken and has a monotone voice...I do too, but people don't dislike me for it. Well not most, at least. :D

As for his play, yeah he makes mistakes, but he also had defenses loading up to stop the pass almost the entire season since our running game was totally inconsistent. He still took a team with a sub-par running game, and possibly the worst defense in the league to the verge of a playoff berth. He needs to improve in some areas, but hell I'd say he did alright for his 2nd season as a full time starter. I understand that he will never be good enough to some until he wins a Super Bowl, but this article and some of the comments in this thread are ridiculous.

Just win a damn Super Bowl, Jay, and shut these fools up please!

I keep seeing this "no running game". Hey, guess what! 4.8ypc avg., which was second in the entire league!

Just because they chose NOT to run, doesn't mean they couldn't.

[rcsodak]

He high-fived himself three times.

And you actually made a post about it. :tsk::lol:

[G_Money]

Coulda swore he was wearing a yellow jacket..... :confused:

That's sorta the point. I guess I needed to use the sarcasm font.

Jeff George isn't the only strong-armed QB with bad hair and the ability to say dumb things who can be comped to Jay.

Some of em are HOFers.

~G

[rcsodak]

Jay Crushler? How long did it take you to come up with that one? Or, did Alfred Williams and you come up with that one together?

Yep, I had a problem with Jake's hippie look. The reason I brought it up was in response to the article that made a big deal about Jay not looking like he just stepped out of Esquire. As the picture shows, the writer demonstrated a clear double standard calling out Cutler when St. Jake looked like an extra from the musical Hair.

I don't have a "man-crush," but Jay is my adopted Bronco.

:coffee:

You had a problem with his 'look' WWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY before the article, mtn.

Just sayin......:coffee:

[rcsodak]

Are you the mother of Jakes child or something? Not physically possible.

The guy was a total Douche bag. He was terrible, he was a cancer. Says who? YOU? lmao
He was terrible? Howso? He helped win more games they lost! He was the qb on playoff teams every year.
He was a cancer? Howso? Where are the quotes of players saying this? Coaches?


He had his chance, he stunk so bad that Shannahan had to pull him. He lost his starting Job to a kid.
This statement is sad. 7-2 when he was pulled. That stinks?
And he lost his starting job to a 1st rd pick when the HC had prolly already decided it was going to happen before the season started.

[rcsodak]

Jake was demeaned for things that were true, and proven to be more true as the years went on. They're still true.

I don't have any problem with Jay being demeaned for things that are also true.

Jay = Jeff George is demonstrably not true at this point in the way he relates to players and coaches, and things would have to go completely to pieces for it to EVER be a valid comparison.

Brandon Marshall = Rae Carruth would be a similarly horrible comparison for their off-the-field issues. I mean, both guys blocked their girlfriend's car in, right?

:rolleyes:

Jay has weaknesses. I happen to prefer articles that provide insight into those weaknesses, and not ones that make up weaknesses he doesn't have just to prove a point that isn't valid.

~G
So everything was just 'made up'?
What weren't valid?

[Superchop 7]

Look,

If John Elway comes out and publicly criticizes Jay.......

Theres a few issues going on that he needs to work on.

Maybe the best thing for him will be Josh McDaniels.

As for his appearance.......I just can't stand that haircut.....it makes him look like a retard.

The comparison to George ? Probably a bad one, George was a locker room cancer to the n'th degree. Jay is the type that needs his teamates support.

[TXBRONC]

Look,

If John Elway comes out and publicly criticizes Jay.......

Theres a few issues going on that he needs to work on.

Maybe the best thing for him will be Josh McDaniels.

As for his appearance.......I just can't stand that haircut.....it makes him look like a retard.

The comparison to George ? Probably a bad one, George was a locker room cancer to the n'th degree. Jay is the type that needs his teamates support.


What player doesn't need his teammates support? :confused:

[rcsodak]

Look,

If John Elway comes out and publicly criticizes Jay.......

Theres a few issues going on that he needs to work on.

Maybe the best thing for him will be Josh McDaniels.

As for his appearance.......I just can't stand that haircut.....it makes him look like a retard.

The comparison to George ? Probably a bad one, George was a locker room cancer to the n'th degree. Jay is the type that needs his teamates support.

I just spewed Coke out my nose...... :lol:

And I agree. :D

[Watchthemiddle]

How Cutler acts away from Dove Valley is his business, although one of the realities of his business is that tongues wag. Beyond that, and more important, he too often seems unconcerned about attempting to project the aura of class and leadership that the great quarterbacks have, both in the dressing and meeting rooms, and so many other places.

They have "it." Their teammates spot it. Their coaches feel it. The fans know it. Cutler doesn't yet have "it" and, even worse, doesn't seem to much care.

Yup....."IT". Crushler might have "it" to some of you based off of having a strong arm, but to those of us who want to win, having a strong arm isn't good enough. It takes more than a strong arm in the NFL to be a winner....ask Jeff George....ooops. Other than Elway and Farve, how many stron armed QB's have ever won the SB?

[Lonestar]

Jake looked like a crackhead who lived under a bridge with the hair. He was at press conferences looking like a hippy in his potato-sack sweaters which I thought was disgraceful. He's filthy and an embarassment to the Franchise.

The Mannings and Brady wear suits. Cutler too in most PC's I saw looked professional.

That's one area I agree with the NY Yankess (who I HATE.) They have a strict appearance policy on hair and clothes as they represent the Organization. You're supposed to be a professional. Look professional.

I think it's even worse with some other players doing PC's with doo-rags and sunglasses and stuff like that. More worried more about being street than being a professional. The League should od something about that.

funny I did not care for the long hair eihter but then you have to also include the Polamalu to that also..

But to call him filthy and an embarrassment to the franchise is a bit a a stretch IMHO.. I can't ever say any of the appearances I saw Jake in that he appeared to have lice or bugs crawling around in his hair or beard..

Can't we all be friends and get along afterall Jake is living the high life right now..

Or is it that maybe the Jake haters are pissed he got the babe?

[Broncos Mtnman]

Or is it that maybe the Jake haters are pissed he got the babe?

That's weak even for you, JR.

I could care less that Jake boinks a cheerleader. Elam married a cheerleader too, but you didn't see people upset with him, did you?

Why?

Because Elam, unlike Plummer, was a complete class act. He was always working on his craft, and he NEVER took a dump on the fans like Jake did.

Back on topic, for this joker of a reporter to claim that Jay needs a makeover when Jake was involved in a road rage incident, flipped off the fans AT INVESCO, cursed out a reporter for bringing his cheerleader babe up in the papers and stated that DENVER FANS ARE NOT THE GREATEST, is proof that this guy is off track.

:coffee:

[Lonestar]

That's weak even for you, JR.

I could care less that Jake boinks a cheerleader. Elam married a cheerleader too, but you didn't see people upset with him, did you?

Why?

Because Elam, unlike Plummer, was a complete class act. He was always working on his craft, and he NEVER took a dump on the fans like Jake did.

Back on topic, for this joker of a reporter to claim that Jay needs a makeover when Jake was involved in a road rage incident, flipped off the fans AT INVESCO, cursed out a reporter for bringing his cheerleader babe up in the papers and stated that DENVER FANS ARE NOT THE GREATEST, is proof that this guy is off track.

:coffee:

hey I see no logical reason for the hate he is gone, played well when he was here got better each year till the change in playbook his last year, and his retirement instead of taking a beating each weekend.

the hot babe had to be the only reason that made sense..


Now can't we all be Bronco friends again..

And wish everyone good things for the upcoming year..

[Fan in Exile]

Yup....."IT". Crushler might have "it" to some of you based off of having a strong arm, but to those of us who want to win, having a strong arm isn't good enough. It takes more than a strong arm in the NFL to be a winner....ask Jeff George....ooops. Other than Elway and Farve, how many stron armed QB's have ever won the SB?

I've come across many people who talk about "it". I've also throoughly been convinced that anytime you're talking about something that you can't define it's something you don't understand.

Just three days ago we saw a strong armed QB win the SB. It's always good to check on these things before posting because it keeps you from looking silly.

[Kapaibro]

Push comes to shove, arm strength blah blah blah and all that hoo ha aside...

Jay has a hair cut that looks like crap, and makes him look like a retarded puffer fish. (and that's not just my opinion)

So southern girls might dig it? Ooooooooooooo well that makes all the difference.

He's had the same cut for years, so would it really kill him to try something different?

[rcsodak]

I've come across many people who talk about "it". I've also throoughly been convinced that anytime you're talking about something that you can't define it's something you don't understand.

Just three days ago we saw a strong armed QB win the SB. It's always good to check on these things before posting because it keeps you from looking silly.

Ben isn't known in the league as being a "strong armed QB". Sorry.

And I'd say Pitt won despite him.

It's called defense..


...and refs.

[rcsodak]

Push comes to shove, arm strength blah blah blah and all that hoo ha aside...

Jay has a hair cut that looks like crap, and makes him look like a retarded puffer fish. (and that's not just my opinion)

So southern girls might dig it? Ooooooooooooo well that makes all the difference.

He's had the same cut for years, so would it really kill him to try something different?

And that's coming from a hot chick in her own right! :laugh:

[WARHORSE]

Ok, so Cutlers haircut is sorry.



Could be worse..........Rivers could be our QB.:coffee:



Just a thought.

*grass isnt always greener on the other side of fence thoughts race through everyones mind as they picture Rivers with a gay smile on his face and a bowl cut*


Is it coincidence that Rivers and Cutler both have crappy haircuts?:confused:

[sneakers]

I'll take Cutler over pretty-boy Leinart any day.

Leinard's eyes are way to close together.

[Kapaibro]

Leinard's eyes are way to close together.

Could be worse....

Andy Roddick looks like a guinea pig. Thems is rully close eyes!

[JKcatch724]

Yup....."IT". Crushler might have "it" to some of you based off of having a strong arm, but to those of us who want to win, having a strong arm isn't good enough. It takes more than a strong arm in the NFL to be a winner....ask Jeff George....ooops. Other than Elway and Farve, how many stron armed QB's have ever won the SB?

Dude you're more than welcome to root for another team... Take that "Crushler" crap to a Charger board. Nobody wants to listen to that here.

[Fan in Exile]

Ben isn't known in the league as being a "strong armed QB". Sorry.

And I'd say Pitt won despite him.

It's called defense..


...and refs.


"He's so much more athletic than me. He's got a big, strong arm, he has an ability to make plays in and out of the pocket that's so different from me," Warner said.

You are just wrong on this, try googling Ben Roethlisberger and strong arm and see all the results that you get.

As far as him needing his defense, did you even see the game? Do you remember the last second game winning drive? That wasn't defense at all that was Ben and his receivers.

[sneakers]

Could be worse....

Andy Roddick looks like a guinea pig. Thems is rully close eyes!

I think he looks like Stiffler from American Pie.

[omac]

So ....

For Jake Plummer, he has that "it" that Cutler doesn't have, and that's why he just wins ... except for his first 6 seasons in Arizona when he didn't have "it" and during that time, he "just loses" (30-52, 5 losing seasons in 6, only 1 season with more TDs than INTs, 4 seasons with 20 or more INTs). "It" had nothing to do with the poor defenses in Arizona, nor the top 10 defenses in Denver.

For Ben Roethlisberger, the Steelers win "despite" him, because of their defense, in effect, because of their team. So for Ben Roethlisberger's sake, his win-loss doesn't reflect on his quarterbacking, but more on how solid his team is .... yet for Plummer, it's all about win-loss, except for when he was in Arizona. Ben Roethlisberger doesn't qualify for "it", since he has a solid team around him that gets him the wins.

How about when the Broncos went 7-4 with Plummer going 11 TDs and 13 INTs, and a league 28th ranked QB rating of 68.8 ... did the Broncos win despite Jake Plummer. Or that doesn't count, he just wins, because he's got that "it"?

And did the Steelers win "despite" the clutch, tough, perfect TD pass from Ben Roethlisberger to Santonio Holmes to put them ahead? So the Steelers won the superbowl, despite that game winning TD by Ben, and despite a 92.3 QB rating by Ben, which was higher than any of Jake's seasonal QB ratings? Does that then mean the Broncos won despite Jake Plummer, just like the Steelers won despite Ben Roethlisberger? Or Jake Plummer just wins, because he has "it" ... except in poor defensive teams in Arizona, then the team has to be taken into consideration.

[rcsodak]

You are just wrong on this, try googling Ben Roethlisberger and strong arm and see all the results that you get.

As far as him needing his defense, did you even see the game? Do you remember the last second game winning drive? That wasn't defense at all that was Ben and his receivers.

So Warner is the guage for strong arms?

And no...you're the only one in the world that watched the game. :rolleyes:

He's a big guy.....so he has a 'big arm'...but it isn't a strong arm. How many wr's have talked about him putting the "x" in their chests....jamming their fingers, etc. The things you do hear from wr's that catch strong armed qb's.

And maybe you didn't notice, but the Cards just fired their DCoordinator. Gee....wonder why! :coffee:

Put him on a team without that D, and he's not the talk of the town, imho. But go ahead and continue to think he's 'all that'.

[rcsodak]

So ....

For Jake Plummer, he has that "it" that Cutler doesn't have, and that's why he just wins ... except for his first 6 seasons in Arizona when he didn't have "it" and during that time, he "just loses" (30-52, 5 losing seasons in 6, only 1 season with more TDs than INTs, 4 seasons with 20 or more INTs). "It" had nothing to do with the poor defenses in Arizona, nor the top 10 defenses in Denver.

For Ben Roethlisberger, the Steelers win "despite" him, because of their defense, in effect, because of their team. So for Ben Roethlisberger's sake, his win-loss doesn't reflect on his quarterbacking, but more on how solid his team is .... yet for Plummer, it's all about win-loss, except for when he was in Arizona. Ben Roethlisberger doesn't qualify for "it", since he has a solid team around him that gets him the wins.

How about when the Broncos went 7-4 with Plummer going 11 TDs and 13 INTs, and a league 28th ranked QB rating of 68.8 ... did the Broncos win despite Jake Plummer. Or that doesn't count, he just wins, because he's got that "it"?

And did the Steelers win "despite" the clutch, tough, perfect TD pass from Ben Roethlisberger to Santonio Holmes to put them ahead? So the Steelers won the superbowl, despite that game winning TD by Ben, and despite a 92.3 QB rating by Ben, which was higher than any of Jake's seasonal QB ratings? Does that then mean the Broncos won despite Jake Plummer, just like the Steelers won despite Ben Roethlisberger? Or Jake Plummer just wins, because he has "it" ... except in poor defensive teams in Arizona, then the team has to be taken into consideration.

Never seen a poster on here say Jake had "it". Ravage used to throw that around...and that Elway had "it"...as did Marino....as does Manning....Brady...et al.

Frankly, if you can't see the humor/hypocrisy in the fact that what Jake was criticized for, and cutler isn't, then you're blind.
And if you can't admit that the team was better off, BEFORE cutler was instilled in the starting lineup, with Jake, again, you're blind.

But that's just our opinions.

[omac]

Never seen a poster on here say Jake had "it". Ravage used to throw that around...and that Elway had "it"...as did Marino....as does Manning....Brady...et al.

Frankly, if you can't see the humor/hypocrisy in the fact that what Jake was criticized for, and cutler isn't, then you're blind.
And if you can't admit that the team was better off, BEFORE cutler was instilled in the starting lineup, than it was with Jake, again, you're blind.

But that's just our opinions.

Actually, Watchthemiddle likes to imply that Jay doesn't have "it", yet Jake had "it".

And if you can't see the difference in the defenses when Jake was starting and when Cutler was starting, then you are the one that's blind.

Again, as I've said several times, Jake was terrible, both in individual stats as well as win-loss when he was in the Arizona teams that had terrible defenses. His stats and win-loss got much better when he got into a Denver team with a much more solid defense.

But that's our opinions. :D

[rcsodak]

Actually, Watchthemiddle likes to imply that Jay doesn't have "it", yet Jake had "it".

And if you can't see the difference in the defenses when Jake was starting and when Cutler was starting, then you are the one that's blind.

Again, as I've said several times, Jake was terrible, both in individual stats as well as win-loss when he was in the Arizona teams that had terrible defenses. His stats and win-loss got much better when he got into a Denver team with a much more solid defense.

But that's our opinions. :D

You mean that 'paper-tiger' D that denver had? The one that couldn't get off the field against Pitt? The one that had to constantly use the all-out blitz?

The one with the heralded 'browncos'?

THAT D?

I'm sorry, but denver hasn't had an actual top-10 D for about 10yrs, imho. When they stopped the run, they'd get eaten up by the pass. Note the games against Indy. When they'd stop the pass, they'd get eaten up by the run. Note the game against Vick.
I won't even bring up non'special teams'. :tsk:

But I find it unbelievable that a fan can actually look themselves in the mirror while stating that Denver had this great Defense in the last decade.

Paper Tiger D! ;)

Now, was it in the lower tier as it was last year? NO! But the skillset on the offense, then, wasn't as proficient as it was last year either. Old or no-name wr's, TE's by committee, for a qb that did damn well by anyone's standards, imo. He broke Elway's records, but that is poo-poo'd.....but when cutler broke them, WOW!!!!! See the hypocrisy of some?

For people to just say "jake sucked", is, imo, someone who simply didn't like him, for whatever reason. Frankly, with cutler's int's in the redzone, or his pick-6's, I shudder everytime he goes back to pass - as did some that did when jake would attempt long passes.

Anyhoo......

....I usually just sit back and, when a point can be made from using other's rebukes against them, I'll do it. But only when it's brought up.

"If you get hit with a bucket of shit, be sure to close your eyes" :D

[omac]

You mean that 'paper-tiger' D that denver had? The one that couldn't get off the field against Pitt? The one that had to constantly use the all-out blitz?

The one with the heralded 'browncos'?

THAT D?

I'm sorry, but denver hasn't had an actual top-10 D for about 10yrs, imho. When they stopped the run, they'd get eaten up by the pass. Note the games against Indy. When they'd stop the pass, they'd get eaten up by the run. Note the game against Vick.
I won't even bring up non'special teams'. :tsk:

But I find it unbelievable that a fan can actually look themselves in the mirror while stating that Denver had this great Defense in the last decade.

Paper Tiger D! ;)

Now, was it in the lower tier as it was last year? NO! But the skillset on the offense, then, wasn't as proficient as it was last year either. Old or no-name wr's, TE's by committee, for a qb that did damn well by anyone's standards, imo. He broke Elway's records, but that is poo-poo'd.....but when cutler broke them, WOW!!!!! See the hypocrisy of some?

For people to just say "jake sucked", is, imo, someone who simply didn't like him, for whatever reason. Frankly, with cutler's int's in the redzone, or his pick-6's, I shudder everytime he goes back to pass - as did some that did when jake would attempt long passes.

Anyhoo......

....I usually just sit back and, when a point can be made from using other's rebukes against them, I'll do it. But only when it's brought up.

"If you get hit with a bucket of shit, be sure to close your eyes" :D

The Arizona Cardinals teams that Jake started in had rushing defenses ranked at 27th, 20st, 30th, 30th, 24th, & 30th. Not surprisingly, Jake Plummer not only had terrible individual QB stats, but a poor 30 win - 52 loss record as a starter too.

The Denver Broncos teams that Jake started in had rushing defenses ranked at 7th, 4th, 2nd, & 12th. With this much better team, Jake had better individual stats and much a much better win - loss record.

The Denver Broncos teams that Cutler had in his first two starting seasons had rushing defenses ranked at 30th and 27th, much like Jake's old Arizona teams.

You can always mention instances where a usually solid defense falters; the Ravens defense this season was very solid, yet the Giants ran all over them in their game. Throughout the season, though, the Cardinals from '97-'02 had consistently poor rushing defenses, the Broncos from '03-'06 had consistently good rushing defenses, while the Broncos from '07-08 had consistently poor rushing defenses.

Football is a team sport. Jake played much better and had more success as a QB when he was surrounded by a better team, than when he was surrounded by a much more inferior team. It was up to Jay to try and carry this team, because of it's porous rushing defense and all the injuries at RB. When he had a good game, the Broncos won; when he had a bad game, the Broncos lost. Sometimes, when he had a good enough game, the Broncos still lost.

There is no denying that the Broncos defense got exponentially worse when Coyer left and Bates then Slowick took over. Ask anyone on this board, and they'll say the same thing. They may say Coyer had weaknesses in making halftime adjustments, but no one with any credibility will say our defense has gotten better since Coyer left. A big part of it may have also been the impact of the loss of Al Wilson. Still, the Broncos defense has only gotten worse since Coyer left.

[Kapaibro]

Well to give Jake his props, he was the first QB to get AZ to the post-season.

God it was painful watching him play in AZ. It was bliss to see him play on a great team in Denver.

[omac]

Well to give Jake his props, he was the first QB to get AZ to the post-season.

God it was painful watching him play in AZ. It was bliss to see him play on a great team in Denver.

Thank you. Exactly my point. That was his only winning season in Arizona, 9-7, and even then, he had 17 TDs to 20 INTs. But when he was surrounded by a better team, he had much better QB numbers as well as a better win-loss record. The team will affect a QBs individual stats, as well as his win-loss record. :cheers:

[fcspikeit]

Thank you. Exactly my point. That was his only winning season in Arizona, 9-7, and even then, he had 17 TDs to 20 INTs. But when he was surrounded by a better team, he had much better QB numbers as well as a better win-loss record. The team will affect a QBs individual stats, as well as his win-loss record. :cheers:

I'm sorry but the fact this even has to be said is ridicules!

There are 22 guys on the field, all of which play a part in winning and losing. I mean, come on!

[TXBRONC]

You mean that 'paper-tiger' D that denver had? The one that couldn't get off the field against Pitt? The one that had to constantly use the all-out blitz?

The one with the heralded 'browncos'?

THAT D?

I'm sorry, but denver hasn't had an actual top-10 D for about 10yrs, imho. When they stopped the run, they'd get eaten up by the pass. Note the games against Indy. When they'd stop the pass, they'd get eaten up by the run. Note the game against Vick.
I won't even bring up non'special teams'. :tsk:

But I find it unbelievable that a fan can actually look themselves in the mirror while stating that Denver had this great Defense in the last decade.

Paper Tiger D! ;)

Now, was it in the lower tier as it was last year? NO! But the skillset on the offense, then, wasn't as proficient as it was last year either. Old or no-name wr's, TE's by committee, for a qb that did damn well by anyone's standards, imo. He broke Elway's records, but that is poo-poo'd.....but when cutler broke them, WOW!!!!! See the hypocrisy of some?

For people to just say "jake sucked", is, imo, someone who simply didn't like him, for whatever reason. Frankly, with cutler's int's in the redzone, or his pick-6's, I shudder everytime he goes back to pass - as did some that did when jake would attempt long passes.

Anyhoo......

....I usually just sit back and, when a point can be made from using other's rebukes against them, I'll do it. But only when it's brought up.

"If you get hit with a bucket of shit, be sure to close your eyes" :D

Yeah you really showed him RC. :coffee:

[omac]

Yeah you really showed him RC. :coffee:

Thanks, man. :cheers:

[TXBRONC]

Thanks, man. :cheers:

No problem. :beer:

[CoachChaz]

So, if a defense is on the field 35 minutes and give up 30 points...17 of which are the result of 2 interceptions and a fumble...and the team loses 30-24. It's not fair to say the QB played a more significant role in that loss than the defense?

[TXBRONC]

So, if a defense is on the field 35 minutes and give up 30 points...17 of which are the result of 2 interceptions and a fumble...and the team loses 30-24. It's not fair to say the QB played a more significant role in that loss than the defense?

I haven't seen anyone say that, but then again we couldn't depend on the defense to change field position or get turnovers when we needed them. If I'm mistaken we were dead last in creating turnovers.

[WARHORSE]

So, if a defense is on the field 35 minutes and give up 30 points...17 of which are the result of 2 interceptions and a fumble...and the team loses 30-24. It's not fair to say the QB played a more significant role in that loss than the defense?


Of course not!


That might make sense or sumthin.............:coffee:


:D

[fcspikeit]

So, if a defense is on the field 35 minutes and give up 30 points...17 of which are the result of 2 interceptions and a fumble...and the team loses 30-24. It's not fair to say the QB played a more significant role in that loss than the defense?

If a lineman got burned that led to the fumble, and a receiver running the wrong rout led to one of the int's, and the other came of a tipped ball, is it still fair to say the QB played more of a significant role in the loss?

No one looks at that. They take the total turnovers at the end of the year and blame the QB. Then they overlook all the good #'s put up, so they can say he sucks. When the good #'s are brought out, they turn to the good'ol fall back. The win loss record of the team :rolleyes: Which proves nothing and surely doesn't show how well a QB played!

There are to many QB's who played worse yet have more wins then losses, there are to many QB's who played better like Breeze who only finished 8-8..

I don't care what anyone says, Collins is not better then Breeze because his team won more games last year! To even suggest that is idiotic...

[TXBRONC]

If a lineman got burned that led to the fumble, and a receiver running the wrong rout led to one of the int's, and the other came of a tipped ball, is it still fair to say the QB played more of a significant role in the loss?

No one looks at that. They take the total turnovers at the end of the year and blame the QB. Then they overlook all the good #'s put up, so they can say he sucks. When the good #'s are brought out, they turn to the good'ol fall back. The win loss record of the team :rolleyes: Which proves nothing and surely doesn't show how well a QB played!

There are to many QB's you played worse yet have more wins then losses, there are to many QB's who played better like Breeze who only finished 8-8..

I don't care what anyone says, Collins is not better then Breeze because his team won more games last year! To even suggest that is idiotic...

Wait a minute it's not like Brees was surrounded by talent FC. ;)

[fcspikeit]

Wait a minute it's not like Brees was surrounded by talent FC. ;)

Wait a minute, we're not talking about the rest of the team! The only way I can blame the win loss record on the QB is by ignoring the rest of the team. ;)

[TXBRONC]

Wait a minute, we're not talking about the rest of the team! The only way I can blame the win loss record on the QB is by ignoring the rest of the team. ;)

Damn. :tsk:

[fcspikeit]

Damn. :tsk:

That's right I win! If you try and argue, I'll repeat it over and over until you get tired of responding and I'll win again because I got the last word..;)

[omac]

So, if a defense is on the field 35 minutes and give up 30 points...17 of which are the result of 2 interceptions and a fumble...and the team loses 30-24. It's not fair to say the QB played a more significant role in that loss than the defense?

That's a very good point, and that happens.

Are you saying, though, that Denver's ineptitude at stopping the run, such that in the final game against SD, the Chargers rushed for 289 yards and Rivers only had to throw the ball 20 times, connecting on 15 of them, was on Cutler?

So if another QB were playing for Denver, our rushing defense would have a much easier time stopping opponents? I know you aren't saying that the lack of discipline with our defenders, causing them to be where they aren't supposed to be, and the general confusion they usually have isn't because of the QB, right? I've seen your posts, and you use a lot of reason in them.

My whole point to bringing up defenses was to show that the make-up of the whole team affects a QB's individual stats as well as win-loss, and I've magnified that by taking into account Plummer's terrible years stats-wise and win-loss wise because of the terrible teams he's had in Arizona, then his much better years with better stats and better win-loss with a better Denver team. I've also shown that Cutler is working with a team that has a defense that's worse than it was during Coyer's tenure here, and that will affect his performance, as he will be prone to trying to do to much to make plays. What's he gonna do? Play more conservative, throw the ball away easily, then let the defense do it's job? He and his offense have had to shoulder the bulk of the load of winning games.

Can anyone say without smirking that Trent Dilfer is a better QB than Dan Marino, because he won the Superbowl?

All I keep saying is the whole team will affect how a QB performs, so that with a QB, you can't just say it's about win-loss. You have to take the whole team into consideration, otherwise, Jake Plummer was a terrible QB for his first 6 seasons for absolutely no reason at all.

We agree, right? :cheers:

[omac]

That's right I win! If you try and argue, I'll repeat it over and over until you get tired of responding and I'll win again because I got the last word..;)

Sorry, I'm actually also guilty of that, hehehe. :behindsofa:

It's just that every time I bring up the one point again and again, the issue is always side-stepped and diverted. :D

[fcspikeit]

Sorry, I'm actually also guilty of that, hehehe. :behindsofa:

It's just that every time I bring up the one point again and again, the issue is always side-stepped and diverted. :D

Right but I know it's a lot more work for you to keep bringing up all those valid points, all I have to do is ignore your argument and restate the win lose record and follow it with, :coffee:

If I keep doing this, before long others will blindly follow my lead and do the same...

Don't you know, it's not about being right, it's about being the last person talking at the end of the conversation... Why else would these meaningless threads keep going and going?

[TXBRONC]

That's a very good point, and that happens.

Are you saying, though, that Denver's ineptitude at stopping the run, such that in the final game against SD, the Chargers rushed for 289 yards and Rivers only had to throw the ball 20 times, connecting on 15 of them, was on Cutler?

So if another QB were playing for Denver, our rushing defense would have a much easier time stopping opponents? I know you aren't saying that the lack of discipline with our defenders, causing them to be where they aren't supposed to be, and the general confusion they usually have isn't because of the QB, right? I've seen your posts, and you use a lot of reason in them.

My whole point to bringing up defenses was to show that the make-up of the whole team affects a QB's individual stats as well as win-loss, and I've magnified that by taking into account Plummer's terrible years stats-wise and win-loss wise because of the terrible teams he's had in Arizona, then his much better years with better stats and better win-loss with a better Denver team. I've also shown that Cutler is working with a team that has a defense that's worse than it was during Coyer's tenure here, and that will affect his performance, as he will be prone to trying to do to much to make plays. What's he gonna do? Play more conservative, throw the ball away easily, then let the defense do it's job? He and his offense have had to shoulder the bulk of the load of winning games.

Can anyone say without smirking that Trent Dilfer is a better QB than Dan Marino, because he won the Superbowl?

All I keep saying is the whole team will affect how a QB performs, so that with a QB, you can't just say it's about win-loss. You have to take the whole team into consideration, otherwise, Jake Plummer was a terrible QB for his first 6 seasons for absolutely no reason at all.

We agree, right? :cheers:

It can make a huge difference on quarterbacks fortunes when he has defense that stop opponents and get turnovers.

[fcspikeit]

It can make a huge difference on quarterbacks fortunes when he has defense that stop opponents and get turnovers.

Look at Joe Flacco, did he play well? He played all right for a rookie. However, if you just look at his #'s, he didn't set the world on fire like some believe.

The only reason everyone believes he played so great is because his team won a lot of games. If he had the same #'s and played on a 6-10 team, people wouldn't be talking about him in such a positive way.

His personal #'s aren't good enough to carry him. He was able to play on a team that could win most games with him only taking what is there and throwing 20 times a game. A QB's #'s almost always look better when they can do that, yet he was still only so so.... Time will tell how good he turns out to be, They could be in for a long season next year if their D drops from 2nd to 15th, which is a good possibility after losing Ryan and a couple of starters to FA..

[CoachChaz]

That's a very good point, and that happens.

Are you saying, though, that Denver's ineptitude at stopping the run, such that in the final game against SD, the Chargers rushed for 289 yards and Rivers only had to throw the ball 20 times, connecting on 15 of them, was on Cutler?

So if another QB were playing for Denver, our rushing defense would have a much easier time stopping opponents? I know you aren't saying that the lack of discipline with our defenders, causing them to be where they aren't supposed to be, and the general confusion they usually have isn't because of the QB, right? I've seen your posts, and you use a lot of reason in them.

My whole point to bringing up defenses was to show that the make-up of the whole team affects a QB's individual stats as well as win-loss, and I've magnified that by taking into account Plummer's terrible years stats-wise and win-loss wise because of the terrible teams he's had in Arizona, then his much better years with better stats and better win-loss with a better Denver team. I've also shown that Cutler is working with a team that has a defense that's worse than it was during Coyer's tenure here, and that will affect his performance, as he will be prone to trying to do to much to make plays. What's he gonna do? Play more conservative, throw the ball away easily, then let the defense do it's job? He and his offense have had to shoulder the bulk of the load of winning games.

Can anyone say without smirking that Trent Dilfer is a better QB than Dan Marino, because he won the Superbowl?

All I keep saying is the whole team will affect how a QB performs, so that with a QB, you can't just say it's about win-loss. You have to take the whole team into consideration, otherwise, Jake Plummer was a terrible QB for his first 6 seasons for absolutely no reason at all.

We agree, right? :cheers:

The point I was leaning towards is that it is possible for a QB to lose a game. Not really being specific towards any game in particular, but Jay had his share of lousy games and usually they occurred in our losses.

Take the Miami game. The run game was nil and the defense bent a little too far. Now, was the run game absent and the defense forced to play longer because of Jay's 3 int's...or did he force alot of bad passes because the run game was absent and the defense was bad.

That's when you have to get inside the game and see what happened, when it happened and why it happened.

[TXBRONC]

Look at Joe Flacco, did he play well? He played all right for a rookie. However, if you just look at his #'s, he didn't set the world on fire like some believe.

The only reason everyone believes he played so great is because his team won a lot of games. If he had the same #'s and played on a 6-10 team, people wouldn't be talking about him in such a positive way.

His personal #'s aren't good enough to carry him. He was able to play on a team that could win most games with him only taking what is there and throwing 20 times a game. A QB's #'s almost always look better when they can do that, yet he was still only so so.... Time will tell how good he turns out to be, They could be in for a long season next year if their D drops from 2nd to 15th, which is a good possibility after losing Ryan and a couple of starters to FA..

The same could be said of Ben Roethlisberger when he was a rookie. He played well but he wasn't setting the world on fire. The Steelers relied on strong running game and their trademark tough defense.

[omac]

The point I was leaning towards is that it is possible for a QB to lose a game. Not really being specific towards any game in particular, but Jay had his share of lousy games and usually they occurred in our losses.

Take the Miami game. The run game was nil and the defense bent a little too far. Now, was the run game absent and the defense forced to play longer because of Jay's 3 int's...or did he force alot of bad passes because the run game was absent and the defense was bad.

That's when you have to get inside the game and see what happened, when it happened and why it happened.

CoachChaz, I've already addressed your point, saying it was a good point. I was not refuting it at all.

You haven't addressed my point, though. Does the overall make-up of a team factor in the individual performance of a QB, both in his individual stats and his win-loss record?

Were Jake Plummer's individual stats as well as win-loss record affected by the overall make-up of the teams he played for, or was he terrible in Arizona through all faults of his own, for 6 seasons?

Does the overall make-up of a team factor in the stats and win-loss record of a QB?

[Watchthemiddle]

Actually, Watchthemiddle likes to imply that Jay doesn't have "it", yet Jake had "it".

:D


I do? :confused:

Your right about me saying Jay doesn't have "it". I am pretty sure I never said Jake had "it" as well. Just because we won a lot of games with Jake and little with Jay, doesn't mean I think Jake had "it".

"It" takes a lot to have "it" as a QB in this league. RIght now there are only a handful of QB's that have "it" in this league IMO....Older Manning, Brady, Brees, Matt Ryan...( yes the rookie from ATL) Warner, and Rivers is starting to get "it"

Oh no, did I say Rivers is starting to get "it"? Yup!! If Cutler can make the maturity strides from last year to this year the way Rivers made, he will be a good QB. RIvers came into the league much like Cutler. He didn't beat out anyone to earn his job, he came in with a punkish attitude, he has some skills, but would pout too much. Cutler is that same player with a stronger arm. If Cutler can grow up like Rivers has, then we will be looking for good things to come for years. If not, don't say I didn't tell you so.