It's not Tebow, it's Coincidental Winning. It's the ONLY real explanation #CoincidentalWinning

[Tned]

Ok, those of you on Twitter need to get my phrase trending. We need to do this to show the absurdity of those that continue to say:


It's a coincidence that Broncos running game went from 22nd to 1st since Tebow took over -- Coincidental Winning

It's a coincidence that Broncos defense is giving up something like 8 points less a game since Tebow took over -- Coincidental Winning

It's a coincidence that Broncos have virtually stopped turning over the ball since Tebow took over -- Coincidental Winning

It's a coincidence that Broncos have dominated time of possession since Tebow took over -- Coincidental Winning

It's a coincidence that Broncos are something like 6-22 in last 28 starts without Tebow, and 1-4 this year, but 8-3 in Tebows first 11 CAREER starts and 7-1 this year -- Coincidental Winning

So, if you post Tweets about the Broncos & Tebow, be sure to add the #CoincidentalWinning hashtag at the end to call out the hypocrisy of refusing to give Tebow credit for the turn around.

[MOtorboat]

No offense, but you've turned into a complete fan boi.

Tebow has inspired a lot of the team, but to say he's the sole reason for the better defensive play and the lucky breaks is a little out there. Von Miller and Dennis Allen deserve much more credit for this stretch than Tebow.

This is fun as shit, but let's not get unreasonable. Let's leave that to the irrational Gator fans.

[hotcarl]

no offense, but shove it tned, this is getting gay

[wayninja]

How quickly we forget that Tebow died for your football sins.

[Davii]

No offense, but you've turned into a complete fan boi.

Tebow has inspired a lot of the team, but to say he's the sole reason for the better defensive play and the lucky breaks is a little out there. Von Miller and Dennis Allen deserve much more credit for this stretch than Tebow.

This is fun as shit, but let's not get unreasonable. Let's leave that to the irrational Gator fans.

All good points, but to not give Tebow credit where due is equally as bad.

[hotcarl]

Hey do you guys want to talk about tebow? I'll start a few threads iyw ( if you want)

I'm going to check out some avs for a sec but I'll be back I registered tebownonstopeverysecond.com for later if anyone knows anything about making a web page (I just need one page)

[MOtorboat]

All good points, but to not give Tebow credit where due is equally as bad.

Certainly Tebow gets some credit, and I never not afforded him that. I feel I've been extremely rational about his abilities, actually.

He has changed the attitude in Denver, and there's something to say about a winning attitude.

But he will never be responsible for made field goals and idiot running backs running out of bounce or fumbling inexplicably.

[wayninja]

I'd actually like to get to know a bit more about you, hotcarl. What's your sign?

[hotcarl]

I'd actually like to get to know a bit more about you, hotcarl. What's your sign?

tebow

[SM19]

Splits happen.

[TXBRONC]

Certainly Tebow gets some credit, and I never not afforded him that. I feel I've been extremely rational about his abilities, actually.

He has changed the attitude in Denver, and there's something to say about a winning attitude.

But he will never be responsible for made field goals and idiot running backs running out of bounce or fumbling inexplicably.

Barber didn't run out of bounds he was forced out.

[TimHippo]

It's a coincidence that Broncos running game went from 22nd to 1st since Tebow took over -- Coincidental Winning

It's a coincidence that Broncos defense is giving up something like 8 points less a game since Tebow took over -- Coincidental Winning

It's a coincidence that Broncos have virtually stopped turning over the ball since Tebow took over -- Coincidental Winning

It's a coincidence that Broncos have dominated time of possession since Tebow took over -- Coincidental Winning

It's a coincidence that Broncos are something like 6-22 in last 28 starts without Tebow, and 1-4 this year, but 8-3 in Tebows first 11 CAREER starts and 7-1 this year -- Coincidental Winning
[/LIST] .

I agree. It is all a coincidence.
http://www.dolfansnyc.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/qb-orton.jpg

[MOtorboat]

Barber didn't run out of bounds he was forced out.

Tebow still didn't cause that.

And I completely disagree, Barber screwed up by epic proportions. Ironically, he broke two tackles on his way out of bounds....

[Canmore]

All good points, but to not give Tebow credit where due is equally as bad.

This team plays harder with Tebow at quarterback. Offense, defense, special teams play better with Tim Tebow under center. It doesn't make sense to me but it is the reality of the situation. Did you see Champ Bailey going nuts when Prater hit that 59 yard field goal. He knew the were going to win the game. So did I. To not give Tebow his due is ludicrous. What is the difference in the Denver Broncos from being 1-4 and left for road kill on the NFL playing field and being 8-5? Tim Tebow. Like him or hate him, no ones indifferent, give the man the credit he is due. I'm not a Tebowner, just ask my brother, but I wanted to see him play. It is worth the price of admission and then some. He is the difference in the Broncos. Congratulations to the Denver Broncos in turning their season around with Tebow at the helm.

[BORDERLINE]

Tebow still didn't cause that.

And I completely disagree, Barber screwed up by epic proportions. Ironically, he broke two tackles on his way out of bounds....

He was forced out sorry the tape don't lie. It's not like he casually ran out of bounds. Sorry that did not happen. It looked like he was gonna fall in bounds but i believe DJ or one of the backers gave him a nudge that sent him going out of bounds.

He did screw up he did not need to bounce it to the outside. If that was the playcall than that was the BIG MISTAKE. No one, well at least i'm not saying Tebow caused that but come on Barber did not walk out of bounds like Matthew Willis did in the closing minute to save time.

[wayninja]

He was forced out sorry the tape don't lie. It's not like he casually ran out of bounds. Sorry that did not happen. It looked like he was gonna fall in bounds but i believe DJ or one of the backers gave him a nudge that sent him going out of bounds.

He did screw up he did not need to bounce it to the outside. If that was the playcall than that was the BIG MISTAKE. No one, well at least i'm not saying Tebow caused that but come on Barber did not walk out of bounds like Matthew Willis did in the closing minute to save time.

Both sides of this argument are right. Barber clearly didn't have his head in the game in terms of the clock... He was clearly interested in positive yardage and had no concern for staying in or going out of bounds.

Having said that, he didn't run out, he was attempting to run forward down the line when DJ came from the side and pushed/hit him out.

[Tned]

No offense, but you've turned into a complete fan boi.

Tebow has inspired a lot of the team, but to say he's the sole reason for the better defensive play and the lucky breaks is a little out there. Von Miller and Dennis Allen deserve much more credit for this stretch than Tebow.

This is fun as shit, but let's not get unreasonable. Let's leave that to the irrational Gator fans.

Well, you meant it in an offensive manner, so why shouldn't I take offense.

If you use a term like fan boi, you need to back it up. Show me where i"ve been posting "fan boi" stuff on here.

I didn't say he was the "sole" reason, what I did was call out those that are saying he's had nothing to do with it, and the wins have been a combination of the Broncos getting lucky, and everyone but Tebow playing great (O-line, running backs, defense, special teams, etc.).

Any objective person that's watched this team knows that the massive jump in the running game is largely due to both Tebow's own yards, but more importantly the thread of him running opening up the field for McGahee.

Tebow has far fewer turnovers than Orton, which takes pressure off the defense.

The combination of fewer turnovers and better running game has improved time of possession in most of the game since Tebow's taken over, which according to the defensive players themselves has gone a long way to helping the defense.

Are there other factors, like Dumervil and DJ (who was wrongly trashed by many on this board pre-season)? Sure has. Did time together, gelling in the new defensive scheme WITH the healthy players help? Sure did.

The "team" is playing great, and all three phases are contributing to the wins, which I have stated repeatedly on here and Twitter. However, those people whether on here or in the local and national media that say it's everything but Tebow, aren't looking at the facts.

Back to you "fan boi" crack, why don't you back that up with showing me my posts where I acted as such, rather than pulling BS out of your ass?

[Tned]

I'm not a Tebowner, just ask my brother, but I wanted to see him play. It is worth the price of admission and then some. He is the difference in the Broncos. Congratulations to the Denver Broncos in turning their season around with Tebow at the helm.

I'm not a Tebowner either. Probably 20% of my Tweets the last two months have been responding to Tebow fanatics giving him all the credit and pointing out he has a long way to go. My posting history on here is similar.

Today I was on the phone with a lawyer in Chicago, and we spent a few minutes talking football, and he asked me what I thought about Tebow, and I said I"m still a jury's still out guy. There are times he plays great, but he still has a long way to go. I'm not convinced he can be the Broncos long term answer at QB.

If I'm a fan boi, I have no idea what you would call the people that have been posting and Tweeting for months and months about how Tebow is the next coming of Elway, Marino, Young, Manning & Aikmen all in one.

Always amazes me why people can't have discussions without trying to insult people they disagree with. Sad, sad.

[wayninja]

It's a coincidence that Broncos have dominated time of possession since Tebow took over -- Coincidental Winning



I don't have a problem with the rest, but this one just isn't true. We've remained pretty close with other teams in TOP, but our 3 and outs have really hurt our ability to dominate TOP. Here's a breakdown.


DEN 34:17, MIA 33:19
DEN 30:26, DET 29:34
DEN 31:51, OAK 28:09
DEN 33:28, KC 26:22
DEN 27:48, NYJ 32:12
DEN 37:08, SD 37:23
DEN 22:09, MIN 37:51
DEN 34:39, CHI 31:47
4:11:46, 4:16:37


We have 5 games were we won the TOP battle and 3 where we lost since Tebow has started. The only game I would think were we really dominated TOP was the KC game, but that's overshadowed by how much longer Minnesota had the ball than us. Hardly 'dominating'. In total, opponents have had the ball for almost 5 more minutes over the stretch of 8 games than the broncos.

With the kind of offense we run, we really SHOULD be winning this battle much more conclusively, but again 3rd down conversion and amount of 3-and-outs are just killing this for us. I think if we DID have dominating TOP, we would also be scoring much more than just the 4th quarter.

[Joel]

Barber didn't run out of bounds he was forced out.
By Tebow. Who made the strip in OT (he just put on Woodyards jersey first.) Part of the conspiracy. We'll actually trade Tebow and our first day picks to move up for Luck, then switch THEIR jerseys at the last minute. ;)

[bcbronc]

I agree, it's not coincidence. When you have one of the youngest OLs in the league, you're installing a new offense and a new blocking scheme, and you don't get an offseason, it's going to take some time to gel. Tebow certainly has provided the team with a spark, but imo it has as much to do with the OL getting all on the same page.

That coupled with Orton no longer dropping balls when we're in a position to win games, our defense getting healthy and used to the new system (we were missing Doom, Champ, DJ during the losing days), our kicking game being unconscious, and Lady Luck apparently having a crush on Tebow.

I mean Tebow can only be given so much of the credit when in 5 of the 7 wins we've put up 18 or less points (18, 17, 17, 16, 13). To put that in perspective, with Orton at the helm for our 1-4 start, we put up 20, 24, 14, 23, 24. Tebow has played a part in turning the season around, no doubt. But there's more going on here than just #15 taking the field.

[Tned]

I don't have a problem with the rest, but this one just isn't true. We've remained pretty close with other teams in TOP, but our 3 and outs have really hurt our ability to dominate TOP. Here's a breakdown.


DEN 34:17, MIA 33:19
DEN 30:26, DET 29:34
DEN 31:51, OAK 28:09
DEN 33:28, KC 26:22
DEN 27:48, NYJ 32:12
DEN 37:08, SD 37:23
DEN 22:09, MIN 37:51
DEN 34:39, CHI 31:47
4:11:46, 4:16:37


We have 5 games were we won the TOP battle and 3 where we lost since Tebow has started. The only game I would think were we really dominated TOP was the KC game, but that's overshadowed by how much longer Minnesota had the ball than us. Hardly 'dominating'. In total, opponents have had the ball for almost 5 more minutes over the stretch of 8 games than the broncos.

With the kind of offense we run, we really SHOULD be winning this battle much more conclusively, but again 3rd down conversion and amount of 3-and-outs are just killing this for us. I think if we DID have dominating TOP, we would also be scoring much more than just the 4th quarter.

Dominated was a poor choice of words on my part. However, the Broncos have improved the TOP, which players like Bailey have said helps the defense.

Here are the five games with Orton:

Oak 32:35 Den 27:25
Cincy 29:45 Den 30:15
Ten 30:54 Den 29:06
GB 33:01 Den 26:59
SD 40:08 Den 19:52

Cincy was the only game we won TOP, and it was barely. Three of the games we lost by 3+ minutes, with a fourth almost a 2 minute deficit.

[wayninja]

Dominated was a poor choice of words on my part. However, the Broncos have improved the TOP, which players like Bailey have said helps the defense.

Here are the five games with Orton:

Oak 32:35 Den 27:25
Cincy 29:45 Den 30:15
Ten 30:54 Den 29:06
GB 33:01 Den 26:59
SD 40:08 Den 19:52

Cincy was the only game we won TOP, and it was barely. Three of the games we lost by 3+ minutes, with a fourth almost a 2 minute deficit.

Ok, I have no problem saying it's better instead of dominating, but Tebow is really a symptom of this rather than a cause. When we started Tebow, we shifted to a much heavier run attack than we had with Orton (especially in the first few games) which almost necessitates a higher TOP. My point is that WITH that attack, we should be doing much better than we are in the possession battle.

I just don't like the argument at all in favor of Tebow. To me, seeing these numbers makes me feel like even though it's better than Orton, doesn't speak well of Tebow.

[Tned]

Ok, I have no problem saying it's better instead of dominating, but Tebow is really a symptom of this rather than a cause. When we started Tebow, we shifted to a much heavier run attack than we had with Orton (especially in the first few games) which almost necessitates a higher TOP. My point is that WITH that attack, we should be doing much better than we are in the possession battle.

I just don't like the argument at all in favor of Tebow. To me, seeing these numbers makes me feel like even though it's better than Orton, doesn't speak well of Tebow.

Yes, the team moved to a more run heavy offense, no doubt about it. However, it's also completely clear that much of the success in the running game has been the threat of Tebow running and teams focusing on containing him, not to mention the 500+ yards rushing Tebow has.

While I have seen improvement in his passing game from Miami to now, criticism of his passing and him being a big part early in the season, and a part now, of the struggles in the passing game are valid, but at the same time you have to acknowledge the major impact he's had in the Broncos going from 22nd in the league in rushing to 1st in the league in rushing.

[wayninja]

Yes, the team moved to a more run heavy offense, no doubt about it. However, it's also completely clear that much of the success in the running game has been the threat of Tebow running and teams focusing on containing him, not to mention the 500+ yards rushing Tebow has.

Yes, that was a bullet point of yours and as I stated, I have no problem with that line. If you try to tie that to TOP, though, it doesn't look as good for us. Our rushing numbers have gone way up, which is obviously a good thing, but our TOP has not matched proportionately that rise in rushing output. I think that's directly attributed to our low 3rd down conversion and 3 and outs (as I think I've repeated, so sorry for that).


While I have seen improvement in his passing game from Miami to now, criticism of his passing and him being a big part early in the season, and a part now, of the struggles in the passing game are valid, but at the same time you have to acknowledge the major impact he's had in the Broncos going from 22nd in the league in rushing to 1st in the league in rushing.

Meh, I've never worried about his ability to pass as much as some. While I didn't watch his college career, I did see the stats and notice he has a few yards passing. The guy CAN throw, it's only been a matter of how consistently. I have complete faith that with more games, more practice, more chemistry with receivers, this will sort itself out. The threat of his legs is just gravy and has undoubtedly opened up the zone blocking scheme. In short, no argument here.

[Northman]

No offense, but you've turned into a complete fan boi.

Tebow has inspired a lot of the team, but to say he's the sole reason for the better defensive play and the lucky breaks is a little out there. Von Miller and Dennis Allen deserve much more credit for this stretch than Tebow.

This is fun as shit, but let's not get unreasonable. Let's leave that to the irrational Gator fans.

Well, lets not be on the totally other end of the spectrum either though MO. The defense had actually been playing good regardless of the 1-4 start. The bigger problem was Orton and his 13 turnovers. Turnovers will kill any defense especially when it gets to be that high of a ratio. While Tim isnt the sole reason for the success down the stretch he does play a major factor in it. Defense does their job, and then that allows Timmy to do his.

[Dapper Dan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7QIUXNgqMI

[pikkiwoki]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7QIUXNgqMI

:laugh: @ the comment by IceCube88

[nflfan]

One thing Tebow has in spades is situational awareness. It's the reason why he makes very few mental mistakes, and usually makes good decisions, and that's key in clutch situations.

The Bear's gameplan was to not allow the Hanie led offense to lose the game, and to rely heavily on the defense and special teams to give them a shot. It worked perfectly. It was a great game by both teams.

In the end, though, it was poor situational awareness that plagued Bears players. The corner that left his responsibility wide open for the Tebow TD pass; the corner(s?) giving away the sidelines that stopped the clock; Barber going out of bounds, when the Bears all but had the game won; Barber allowing himself to get stripped of the ball, while the Bears were in FG range in overtime; the corner giving up too much of a cushion, basically giving up FG range. All mental mistakes, because of a lack of fundamental situational awareness.

You can knock Tebow for his shortcomings in passing, but he has great situational awareness, and that's key to winning games. Bad loss for the Bears, and great win for the Broncos.

[Dapper Dan]

Interesting stat. To me, anyways.

The last time Tebow lost back to back games?
2007 as a Sophomore at Florida.

[Canmore]

Well, lets not be on the totally other end of the spectrum either though MO. The defense had actually been playing good regardless of the 1-4 start. The bigger problem was Orton and his 13 turnovers. Turnovers will kill any defense especially when it gets to be that high of a ratio. While Tim isnt the sole reason for the success down the stretch he does play a major factor in it. Defense does their job, and then that allows Timmy to do his.

I agree. The defense for the most part (Green Bay, Detroit, Minny?) has played well. Orton turned the ball over, something a game manager absolutely can't do and we went 1-4. Insert Tebow who hasn't turned the ball over (2 interceptions and a fumble in 8 games) and is money in crunch time and we are 7-1. The defense is keeping us in games as is special teams. I feel we are winning the field position battle or at the least breaking even. That is a huge change from the Orton era. Offensively we are running the ball with authority most of the time. Passing is improving. Drops are killers. We don't throw the ball a lot. Every pass is important. We can't have six drops this week and win. To win the defense has to be on and Tebow must be Tebow.

[blamkin86]

Orton turned the ball over, something a game manager absolutely can't do and we went 1-4.

Didn't Tebow have a pick and a fumble last game? Did Orton have anything worse this year (I can't allow myself to remember those games). Why don't you mention Tebow's effort against the Lions, or stats from the other quarters? Oh I forgot, that was Fox's fault because he didn't adjust the game to suit Tebow. If we do good, Tebow. If we do bad, the coach or some other crappy player. Got it.

Look, there's no denying Tebow has clearly done something beyond his playing abilities that has inspired this team -- I get that. I'm on the Tebow Train.

I also, although I find the first three quarters downright boring, am much much happier as a broncos fan now than I was at the beginning of the season. Hell last week, my wife gave up at 10-0, and I said "Honey, it's like a book where you know the ending but you don't see how the characters are going to ever get there. Just watch it unfold and marvel at the show."

However, when we do have a loss, and we will this year (unless you think we're going to win the SB), I'd bet my last sawbuck that the FanBois will be blaming Demarius, or Goodman, or someone else, instead of Tebow.

Look, you can't have it both ways. If Tebow is the ONLY reason we are winning now, then if we lose, he will also be the reason at that point.

A far more likely scenario is that Tebow has the team believing they can win. They are excited to play and are playing better knowing that they have a chance to win. But THE OTHER PLAYERS ARE MAKING THESE PLAYS!!!

You rightfully argue that you can't find TT's will in the stats.

So, stop quoting stats. Just stop it.

Maybe appreciate that Demarius had a crappy game going, got his crap together, and caught some "relatively important :lol:" passes. Maybe say, "hm... Barber kinda screwed the pooch on that out of bounds play. And look - Woodyard got a strip at a very opportune time"

Praise Tebow. But to dismiss the other players is just, I don't know. I don't know what that means.

Tebow is improving as a passer. He deserves another shot next year. He also sucks in the first three quarters. Do you see that? Do you see that the other players are not sucking in those quarters?

[catfish]

Didn't Tebow have a pick and a fumble last game? Did Orton have anything worse this year (I can't allow myself to remember those games). Why don't you mention Tebow's effort against the Lions, or stats from the other quarters? Oh I forgot, that was Fox's fault because he didn't adjust the game to suit Tebow. If we do good, Tebow. If we do bad, the coach or some other crappy player. Got it.

Look, there's no denying Tebow has clearly done something beyond his playing abilities that has inspired this team -- I get that. I'm on the Tebow Train.

I also, although I find the first three quarters downright boring, am much much happier as a broncos fan now than I was at the beginning of the season. Hell last week, my wife gave up at 10-0, and I said "Honey, it's like a book where you know the ending but you don't see how the characters are going to ever get there. Just watch it unfold and marvel at the show."

However, when we do have a loss, and we will this year (unless you think we're going to win the SB), I'd bet my last sawbuck that the FanBois will be blaming Demarius, or Goodman, or someone else, instead of Tebow.

Look, you can't have it both ways. If Tebow is the ONLY reason we are winning now, then if we lose, he will also be the reason at that point.

A far more likely scenario is that Tebow has the team believing they can win. They are excited to play and are playing better knowing that they have a chance to win. But THE OTHER PLAYERS ARE MAKING THESE PLAYS!!!

You rightfully argue that you can't find TT's will in the stats.

So, stop quoting stats. Just stop it.

Maybe appreciate that Demarius had a crappy game going, got his crap together, and caught some "relatively important :lol:" passes. Maybe say, "hm... Barber kinda screwed the pooch on that out of bounds play. And look - Woodyard got a strip at a very opportune time"

Praise Tebow. But to dismiss the other players is just, I don't know. I don't know what that means.

Tebow is improving as a passer. He deserves another shot next year. He also sucks in the first three quarters. Do you see that? Do you see that the other players are not sucking in those quarters?

I would agree that the defense is playing lights out the whole game, but on the flip side the offense has been sucking as a whole for the first 3 quarters, not just Tebow. I don't know if it is a result of the playcalling or what but noone on offense is doing anything in the first 3 quarters. I write it off to the fact that Denver has no real weapons on offense more than anything else. Anyone who wants to give all the credit to Tebow for the wins is nuts, anyone who wants to say the offense isn't producing solely because of Tebow is also nuts

[Canmore]

Didn't Tebow have a pick and a fumble last game? Did Orton have anything worse this year (I can't allow myself to remember those games). Why don't you mention Tebow's effort against the Lions, or stats from the other quarters? Oh I forgot, that was Fox's fault because he didn't adjust the game to suit Tebow. If we do good, Tebow. If we do bad, the coach or some other crappy player. Got it.

Look, there's no denying Tebow has clearly done something beyond his playing abilities that has inspired this team -- I get that. I'm on the Tebow Train.

I also, although I find the first three quarters downright boring, am much much happier as a broncos fan now than I was at the beginning of the season. Hell last week, my wife gave up at 10-0, and I said "Honey, it's like a book where you know the ending but you don't see how the characters are going to ever get there. Just watch it unfold and marvel at the show."

However, when we do have a loss, and we will this year (unless you think we're going to win the SB), I'd bet my last sawbuck that the FanBois will be blaming Demarius, or Goodman, or someone else, instead of Tebow.

Look, you can't have it both ways. If Tebow is the ONLY reason we are winning now, then if we lose, he will also be the reason at that point.

A far more likely scenario is that Tebow has the team believing they can win. They are excited to play and are playing better knowing that they have a chance to win. But THE OTHER PLAYERS ARE MAKING THESE PLAYS!!!

You rightfully argue that you can't find TT's will in the stats.

So, stop quoting stats. Just stop it.

Maybe appreciate that Demarius had a crappy game going, got his crap together, and caught some "relatively important :lol:" passes. Maybe say, "hm... Barber kinda screwed the pooch on that out of bounds play. And look - Woodyard got a strip at a very opportune time"

Praise Tebow. But to dismiss the other players is just, I don't know. I don't know what that means.

Tebow is improving as a passer. He deserves another shot next year. He also sucks in the first three quarters. Do you see that? Do you see that the other players are not sucking in those quarters?

This I have said, The team plays harder for Tebow. It shouldn't matter, but it does. Everyone is stepping up to the plate and giving it their best shot.

There is a lot that goes into the first three quarters. I would like to see some more points. I don't think we survive against New England not scoring in the first half.

[HammeredOut]

Ok, those of you on Twitter need to get my phrase trending. We need to do this to show the absurdity of those that continue to say:


It's a coincidence that Broncos running game went from 22nd to 1st since Tebow took over -- Coincidental Winning

It's a coincidence that Broncos defense is giving up something like 8 points less a game since Tebow took over -- Coincidental Winning

It's a coincidence that Broncos have virtually stopped turning over the ball since Tebow took over -- Coincidental Winning

It's a coincidence that Broncos have dominated time of possession since Tebow took over -- Coincidental Winning

It's a coincidence that Broncos are something like 6-22 in last 28 starts without Tebow, and 1-4 this year, but 8-3 in Tebows first 11 CAREER starts and 7-1 this year -- Coincidental Winning

So, if you post Tweets about the Broncos & Tebow, be sure to add the #CoincidentalWinning hashtag at the end to call out the hypocrisy of refusing to give Tebow credit for the turn around.

Coincidental Tebow Quarterback Rating is 19.3 for the first 3 quarters of the football game. And the Defense kept the team in the game.

[catfish]

Coincidental Tebow Quarterback Rating is 19.3 for the first 3 quarters of the football game. And the Defense kept the team in the game.

how did the receivers score out?

[Jsteve01]

Didn't Tebow have a pick and a fumble last game? Did Orton have anything worse this year (I can't allow myself to remember those games). Why don't you mention Tebow's effort against the Lions, or stats from the other quarters? Oh I forgot, that was Fox's fault because he didn't adjust the game to suit Tebow. If we do good, Tebow. If we do bad, the coach or some other crappy player. Got it.

Look, there's no denying Tebow has clearly done something beyond his playing abilities that has inspired this team -- I get that. I'm on the Tebow Train.

I also, although I find the first three quarters downright boring, am much much happier as a broncos fan now than I was at the beginning of the season. Hell last week, my wife gave up at 10-0, and I said "Honey, it's like a book where you know the ending but you don't see how the characters are going to ever get there. Just watch it unfold and marvel at the show."

However, when we do have a loss, and we will this year (unless you think we're going to win the SB), I'd bet my last sawbuck that the FanBois will be blaming Demarius, or Goodman, or someone else, instead of Tebow.

Look, you can't have it both ways. If Tebow is the ONLY reason we are winning now, then if we lose, he will also be the reason at that point.

A far more likely scenario is that Tebow has the team believing they can win. They are excited to play and are playing better knowing that they have a chance to win. But THE OTHER PLAYERS ARE MAKING THESE PLAYS!!!

You rightfully argue that you can't find TT's will in the stats.

So, stop quoting stats. Just stop it.

Maybe appreciate that Demarius had a crappy game going, got his crap together, and caught some "relatively important :lol:" passes. Maybe say, "hm... Barber kinda screwed the pooch on that out of bounds play. And look - Woodyard got a strip at a very opportune time"

Praise Tebow. But to dismiss the other players is just, I don't know. I don't know what that means.

Tebow is improving as a passer. He deserves another shot next year. He also sucks in the first three quarters. Do you see that? Do you see that the other players are not sucking in those quarters?


I saw guys sucking in the first three quarters besides Tebow. There were six catchable balls that were dropped in that game. Missed tackles as well. I think all in all a middle of the road approach is best. Tim has a charisma and fire that helps guys to play up to their abilities. You can't put a value on that. Fox is similar. When guys buy in this kind of stuff happens. Nobody bought in with Orton at the helm

[Mike]

Maybe one of these days the HC and OC will come out earlier in the game and call a more up-tempo, spread out offense. You know something we see at the end of games and in the two-minute drill? Tebow looks a lot more confident and comfortable in those scenarios and the production can't be disputed. I understand wanting to limit Tebow because you doubt his ability and don't want to put the defense in a bad position early. But I think Tebow has shown solid judgement and warrants a little more trust.

Either way, Tebow ain't the reason the sole reason they are winning. Very good defensive play, solid special teams (excellent play by Prater and Colquitt), and clutch offensive play are all coming together. The team believes that they will win when they are in a position to win (even when down more than a score) because the coaches put them in position to do it and they have a QB that doesn't blink when put in those situations. All 3 aspects of the team feed off of each other and it is resulting in some of the best football we have seen in a while.

I think some QBs could succeed here, though maybe not exactly in the same way Tebow is, but not many and the ones that can are solid QBs. And to think that how many games he has under his belt, combined with the offense as a whole having limited practice/experience with each other, and youthful growing pains...things are definitely looking better for the Broncos than I would have imagined possible a few months ago.

[OrangeHoof]

#CoincidentalWinning = #GlobalWarming, a lot of hot gas that ultimately doesn't prove anything.

[catfish]

Maybe one of these days the HC and OC will come out earlier in the game and call a more up-tempo, spread out offense. You know something we see at the end of games and in the two-minute drill? Tebow looks a lot more confident and comfortable in those scenarios and the production can't be disputed. I understand wanting to limit Tebow because you doubt his ability and don't want to put the defense in a bad position early. But I think Tebow has shown solid judgement and warrants a little more trust.

Either way, Tebow ain't the reason the sole reason they are winning. Very good defensive play, solid special teams (excellent play by Prater and Colquitt), and clutch offensive play are all coming together. The team believes that they will win when they are in a position to win (even when down more than a score) because the coaches put them in position to do it and they have a QB that doesn't blink when put in those situations. All 3 aspects of the team feed off of each other and it is resulting in some of the best football we have seen in a while.

I think some QBs could succeed here, though maybe not exactly in the same way Tebow is, but not many and the ones that can are solid QBs. And to think that how many games he has under his belt, combined with the offense as a whole having limited practice/experience with each other, and youthful growing pains...things are definitely looking better for the Broncos than I would have imagined possible a few months ago.


I wish they would...it would be more exciting for sure, however with Fox being a ball control, run first coach I wouldn't hold my breath unless the defense isn't getting it done...like vs Minnesota

[claymore]

Alot of balls had to bounce our way for these wins. Give Tebow and the team credit for making plays when they HAD to, but luck played an equally large part in the majority of our wins.

I dont care what offense, style or throwing motion Tebow uses. He will HAVE to score points early and often in order to continue at this pace.

Unless God is working thru him.

[Canmore]

Coincidental Tebow Quarterback Rating is 19.3 for the first 3 quarters of the football game. And the Defense kept the team in the game.

No doubt the defense kept the Broncos in the game versus the Bears and has kept us in many games this season. Still Tebow's rating after the third quarter is 110.2. Not bad for the fourth quarter and overtime. We need to see more consistent production earlier in the game. I'll take the wins any way they come.

[Jsteve01]

Alot of balls had to bounce our way for these wins. Give Tebow and the team credit for making plays when they HAD to, but luck played an equally large part in the majority of our wins.

I dont care what offense, style or throwing motion Tebow uses. He will HAVE to score points early and often in order to continue at this pace.

Unless God is working thru him.


Eff you clay

[claymore]

Eff you clay

Steve, I saw your pick. I cant be mean to a man with such kind eyes.

<3

Clayton

[Dreadnought]

Maybe one of these days the HC and OC will come out earlier in the game and call a more up-tempo, spread out offense. You know something we see at the end of games and in the two-minute drill? Tebow looks a lot more confident and comfortable in those scenarios and the production can't be disputed. I understand wanting to limit Tebow because you doubt his ability and don't want to put the defense in a bad position early. But I think Tebow has shown solid judgement and warrants a little more trust.

Either way, Tebow ain't the reason the sole reason they are winning. Very good defensive play, solid special teams (excellent play by Prater and Colquitt), and clutch offensive play are all coming together. The team believes that they will win when they are in a position to win (even when down more than a score) because the coaches put them in position to do it and they have a QB that doesn't blink when put in those situations. All 3 aspects of the team feed off of each other and it is resulting in some of the best football we have seen in a while.

I think some QBs could succeed here, though maybe not exactly in the same way Tebow is, but not many and the ones that can are solid QBs. And to think that how many games he has under his belt, combined with the offense as a whole having limited practice/experience with each other, and youthful growing pains...things are definitely looking better for the Broncos than I would have imagined possible a few months ago.

Ain't that the truth. A couple of months ago I felt like I was a starry eyed optimist because I was sure we weren't one on the worst five teams in the NFL, merely one of the worst ten :lol:

This is to me easily the most exciting Bronco season ever*. Not the best by any stretch, just the most exciting and pleasantly surprising. I doubt it ends with even a single playoff win, but I already feel like we are playing with House Money and that this team won't suck for the next five years whole we un-**** what was done to this team by McDouche.


*My most exciting Bronco seasons, in no particular order

1973, 1977, 1981, 1984, 1986, 1991, 1996, 97, 98, 2000, and 2005. Now add 2011

[catfish]

Alot of balls had to bounce our way for these wins. Give Tebow and the team credit for making plays when they HAD to, but luck played an equally large part in the majority of our wins.

I dont care what offense, style or throwing motion Tebow uses. He will HAVE to score points early and often in order to continue at this pace.

Unless God is working thru him.

I agree Denver needs to score more points in the long run. As far as luck goes...these things happen in games every week. They seemed to happen at the end of the game in Denver, I think it has more to do with the conditioning of Denver being better leading to less mental errors late in the game. Thee was IIRC 1 turnover by the bears for the whole game, not an abnormally high number it just happened to come at a vital time....at the end of the game from a RB that the Bears had been running into the ground all day I think Brabers errors, were a result of mental exhaustion from carrying the load for his team. You get tired you make mistakes.

Tebow threw a pick to end a drive unlucky, a blocked chip shot FG unlucky, 6 dropped passes in a half unlucky, not reviewing an OT dropped pass(IMO) that put the Bears in position for a FG in OT unlucky . I'm not trying to call you out or anything just saying that "luck" will always play a role in any game but in reality it is usually the result of better execution in clutch positions rather than more than a roll of the dice. No one wins 7 games through nothing but luck

[Mike]

Ain't that the truth. A couple of months ago I felt like I was a starry eyed optimist because I was sure we weren't one on the worst five teams in the NFL, merely one of the worst ten :lol:

This is to me easily the most exciting Bronco season ever*. Not the best by any stretch, just the most exciting and pleasantly surprising. I doubt it ends with even a single playoff win, but I already feel like we are playing with House Money and that this team won't suck for the next five years whole we un-**** what was done to this team by McDouche.


*My most exciting Bronco seasons, in no particular order

1973, 1977, 1981, 1984, 1986, 1991, 1996, 97, 98, 2000, and 2005. Now add 2011

The mere thought of competing for a playoff spot, not to mention a divisional title would earn you a spot as Chief King of the Orange-Colored Glass wearers if not simply bat-crap crazy.

I seriously thought this team would win no more than 4 games this year.

[catfish]

I saw guys sucking in the first three quarters besides Tebow. There were six catchable balls that were dropped in that game. Missed tackles as well. I think all in all a middle of the road approach is best. Tim has a charisma and fire that helps guys to play up to their abilities. You can't put a value on that. Fox is similar. When guys buy in this kind of stuff happens. Nobody bought in with Orton at the helm

don't want to nitpick, but just to clarify there were six ruled drops, there were more catchable balls that were not caught. Drops mean the receiver does not need to adjust signifigantly to the ball, catchable ball means the receiver got hands on it but did not make the play. Missing a catchable ball is not a receiver downgrade due to degree of difficulty, a drop is.

When most people talk about drops they usually mean a receiver got hands on it but didn't get it(catchable ball). That is why NFL stats for drops are so much lower than what people often see on TV

[claymore]

I agree Denver needs to score more points in the long run. As far as luck goes...these things happen in games every week. They seemed to happen at the end of the game in Denver, I think it has more to do with the conditioning of Denver being better leading to less mental errors late in the game. Thee was IIRC 1 turnover by the bears for the whole game, not an abnormally high number it just happened to come at a vital time....at the end of the game from a RB that the Bears had been running into the ground all day I think Brabers errors, were a result of mental exhaustion from carrying the load for his team. You get tired you make mistakes.

Tebow threw a pick to end a drive unlucky, a blocked chip shot FG unlucky, 6 dropped passes in a half unlucky, not reviewing an OT dropped pass(IMO) that put the Bears in position for a FG in OT unlucky . I'm not trying to call you out or anything just saying that "luck" will always play a role in any game but in reality it is usually the result of better execution in clutch positions rather than more than a roll of the dice. No one wins 7 games through nothing but luck
You are discounting the amount of luck it has taken to win the majority of those games.

Lucky bounces happen every Sunday. But they dont happen every game to every team every week.

Our luck will run out. Unless God is willing this. At that point Tebow/Broncos will need to perform a hell of alot better in the first 55 minutes.

[Canmore]

Ain't that the truth. A couple of months ago I felt like I was a starry eyed optimist because I was sure we weren't one on the worst five teams in the NFL, merely one of the worst ten :lol:

This is to me easily the most exciting Bronco season ever*. Not the best by any stretch, just the most exciting and pleasantly surprising. I doubt it ends with even a single playoff win, but I already feel like we are playing with House Money and that this team won't suck for the next five years whole we un-**** what was done to this team by McDouche.


*My most exciting Bronco seasons, in no particular order

1973, 1977, 1981, 1984, 1986, 1991, 1996, 97, 98, 2000, and 2005. Now add 2011

Nice List. I too feel we are playing with house money. Anything can happen in the playoffs, especially if you have a defense and a running game. I'm not expecting more miracles but I will take one if it shows up. :lol:

[HammeredOut]

how did the receivers score out?

The scored out in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounds mainly. (Thomas, Royal, and Decker).

I heard this quote once from Mike Vick when he played for the Falcons on a question asked about his recieving core.. "The sky is the limit for those guys"..

In other words, it doesn't matter who is playing wide reciever if the only play is to run the ball..

[BroncoJoe]

1973 - the forgotten year. I was just a kid, but it was sweet to finally see the Broncos get over the hump!

1962 was important too - our first non-losing season, and the year I was born. Interestingly enough, we went 7-7 that year. Good number.

[catfish]

You are discounting the amount of luck it has taken to win the majority of those games.

Lucky bounces happen every Sunday. But they dont happen every game to every team every week.

Our luck will run out. Unless God is willing this. At that point Tebow/Broncos will need to perform a hell of alot better in the first 55 minutes.

I guess I just don't see a whole lot that I would classify as lucky that wasn't balanced out by equally bad luck in any game, or what I would classify as out of the ordinary amounts of luck....I think the bears are lucky that this game was as close as it was as there are 2 plays that I can think of as unlucky that would have led to an additional 10 points. To each his own it is all opinion based so no need to argue I suppose

[claymore]

I guess I just don't see a whole lot that I would classify as lucky that wasn't balanced out by equally bad luck in any game, or what I would classify as out of the ordinary amounts of luck....I think the bears are lucky that this game was as close as it was as there are 2 plays that I can think of as unlucky that would have led to an additional 10 points. To each his own it is all opinion based so no need to argue I suppose

I see the fact that they didnt have their starting QB and RB as luck. I see the Out of bounds run, and fumble by Barber as an absolute freakin miracle.

Im not even throwing the 2 field goals in there. If you count those 2 things, it took 6 major ball bounces/luck in our favor to beat a team that only scored 10 points.

[catfish]

The scored out in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounds mainly. (Thomas, Royal, and Decker).

I heard this quote once from Mike Vick when he played for the Falcons on a question asked about his recieving core.. "The sky is the limit for those guys"..

In other words, it doesn't matter who is playing wide reciever if the only play is to run the ball..

how does a quote on the falcons affect this team? if you think that there is a top 40 receiver on this team you are kidding yourself. The fact that they may be great at some point down the road doesn't change the fact that this team has one of the lowest yds after catch percentages in the NFL has two receivers in the top 15 total number of drops despite having the least amount of thrown passes in the nfl.

The fact that they have potential doesn't mean anything. Ryan leaf had great potential it is a matter of reaching that potential. I take how they performed in the fourth quarter and see that they can be great some day, that day has not yet come. It isn't a condemnation of the core, but a realistic look at the talent on the team. There are also problems with pass and rush protection, QB play, and RB consistency if it makes you feel better, the fact remains that last game Tebow is one of the few on offense that wasn't a liability

edit: here is where I get my stats for reference

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFL&type=Passing&rank=033&year=

[rcsodak]

This I have said, The team plays harder for Tebow. It shouldn't matter, but it does. Everyone is stepping up to the plate and giving it their best shot.

There is a lot that goes into the first three quarters. I would like to see some more points. I don't think we survive against New England not scoring in the first half.
I'd say itexplainable why the D/ST's seem to play harder.
How about the fact that they simply know the offense isnt going to be scoring more than 10-17 pts/gm, that field position could determine the offensive points.

It doesnt take much to see that denver has been lucky, of late.
Teams forced to play 2nd/3rd string qb's/rb's/ol's/s's.
And yes, that is a part of the nfl. But whereas it might happen a couple times a season, its almost weekly, of late.

There's T's "coincidence". :lol:

Either that, or all of the calls for Luck earlier have been answered in a different way? (Coincidence?)

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[wayninja]

how does a quote on the falcons affect this team? if you think that there is a top 40 receiver on this team you are kidding yourself. The fact that they may be great at some point down the road doesn't change the fact that this team has one of the lowest yds after catch percentages in the NFL has two receivers in the top 15 total number of drops despite having the least amount of thrown passes in the nfl.

The fact that they have potential doesn't mean anything. Ryan leaf had great potential it is a matter of reaching that potential. I take how they performed in the fourth quarter and see that they can be great some day, that day has not yet come. It isn't a condemnation of the core, but a realistic look at the talent on the team. There are also problems with pass and rush protection, QB play, and RB consistency if it makes you feel better, the fact remains that last game Tebow is one of the few on offense that wasn't a liability

I don't know why it's so hard for folks to see it like it is and just admit that our entire offense is mediocre at best. Not just one player, but the entire unit. The only thing that is grabbing headlines and wins is that despite all the sub-par play, they really step up and come through when it's crunch time like almost no other team.

If you try to pin all of the success or failure on one guy, it's clear there's an ax and a grindstone involved.

[blamkin86]

You know I must admit I wasn't expecting these sort of logical replies.

Although some folks seem to point out flaws in receivers or coaches, and none in quarterbacks, the vast majority of you seem to have an enthusiastic yet realistic view of what (in my opinion) is actually transpiring.

If you don't see how lucky we were vs the bears, well that's a different topic. Watch Tony Dungy's review of the game last Sunday night. Tony goes to church too :)

Anyway thanks for the banter. I was afraid the entire ship had gone mad hatter on me.

I am really loving watching the games. I do wish we could get something going earlier... but I'll take what we have, over what we had.

[wayninja]

You know I must admit I wasn't expecting these sort of logical replies.

Although some folks seem to point out flaws in receivers or coaches, and none in quarterbacks, the vast majority of you seem to have an enthusiastic yet realistic view of what (in my opinion) is actually transpiring.

If you don't see how lucky we were vs the bears, well that's a different topic. Watch Tony Dungy's review of the game last Sunday night. Tony goes to church too :)

Anyway thanks for the banter. I was afraid the entire ship had gone mad hatter on me.

I am really loving watching the games. I do wish we could get something going earlier... but I'll take what we have, over what we had.


There is no doubt we were insanely lucky, but it takes more than just pure luck to win. We took supreme advantage of every one of their mistakes. We've done that in every win so far. So yes, the luck factor is huge, but equally huge is the clutch-iosityness.

[TXBRONC]

Tebow still didn't cause that.

And I completely disagree, Barber screwed up by epic proportions. Ironically, he broke two tackles on his way out of bounds....

Without a little help doesn't go out a bound.

[claymore]

You know I must admit I wasn't expecting these sort of logical replies.

Although some folks seem to point out flaws in receivers or coaches, and none in quarterbacks, the vast majority of you seem to have an enthusiastic yet realistic view of what (in my opinion) is actually transpiring.

If you don't see how lucky we were vs the bears, well that's a different topic. Watch Tony Dungy's review of the game last Sunday night. Tony goes to church too :)

Anyway thanks for the banter. I was afraid the entire ship had gone mad hatter on me.

I am really loving watching the games. I do wish we could get something going earlier... but I'll take what we have, over what we had.

I enjoy seeing the heart. More than anything I want the Broncos to want to win as much as I do.

[Dzone]

Second Tebow SI cover in 3 weeks
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/malibubluff/tebowcover-1.jpg

[catfish]

You know I must admit I wasn't expecting these sort of logical replies.

Although some folks seem to point out flaws in receivers or coaches, and none in quarterbacks, the vast majority of you seem to have an enthusiastic yet realistic view of what (in my opinion) is actually transpiring.

If you don't see how lucky we were vs the bears, well that's a different topic. Watch Tony Dungy's review of the game last Sunday night. Tony goes to church too :)

Anyway thanks for the banter. I was afraid the entire ship had gone mad hatter on me.

I am really loving watching the games. I do wish we could get something going earlier... but I'll take what we have, over what we had.


As far as my point of view, don't misunderstand me as being blind...I just don't believe in luck at all, in any sense. I find that luck is too often used as an excuse to explain things people don't understand(poker pro's must be extremely lucky because they win so much). So it isn't that I don't think the team has been lucky, I just don't think luck exists. My engineering brain won't let me. I try to always look behind the luck description to see what is going on to cause the luck

[BroncoJoe]

Interesting comments on the radio Monday talking about "luck".

If you acknowledge the lucky aspects, you have to also consider the unlucky, which we've had some ourselves, i.e. the "TD" pass to Thomas that was dropped.

[weazel]

This team plays harder with Tebow at quarterback. Offense, defense, special teams play better with Tim Tebow under center. It doesn't make sense to me but it is the reality of the situation. Did you see Champ Bailey going nuts when Prater hit that 59 yard field goal. He knew the were going to win the game. So did I. To not give Tebow his due is ludicrous. What is the difference in the Denver Broncos from being 1-4 and left for road kill on the NFL playing field and being 8-5? Tim Tebow. Like him or hate him, no ones indifferent, give the man the credit he is due. I'm not a Tebowner, just ask my brother, but I wanted to see him play. It is worth the price of admission and then some. He is the difference in the Broncos. Congratulations to the Denver Broncos in turning their season around with Tebow at the helm.

if that is true, that doesnt say much for the players on this team.

[wayninja]

if that is true, that doesnt say much for the players on this team.

Explain, please.

Also, what's with the avatar?

[claymore]

Interesting comments on the radio Monday talking about "luck".

If you acknowledge the lucky aspects, you have to also consider the unlucky, which we've had some ourselves, i.e. the "TD" pass to Thomas that was dropped.

Dropping a pass isnt unlucky, I feel it is a part of the game. There is bad luck, injuries etc...

I would like to add, that our recievers catching the ball on a more consistent basis would reduce the amount of luck required to win against mediocre/bad teams.

[HammeredOut]

how does a quote on the falcons affect this team? if you think that there is a top 40 receiver on this team you are kidding yourself. The fact that they may be great at some point down the road doesn't change the fact that this team has one of the lowest yds after catch percentages in the NFL has two receivers in the top 15 total number of drops despite having the least amount of thrown passes in the nfl.

The fact that they have potential doesn't mean anything. Ryan leaf had great potential it is a matter of reaching that potential. I take how they performed in the fourth quarter and see that they can be great some day, that day has not yet come. It isn't a condemnation of the core, but a realistic look at the talent on the team. There are also problems with pass and rush protection, QB play, and RB consistency if it makes you feel better,
the fact remains that last game Tebow is one of the few on offense that wasn't a liability

edit: here is where I get my stats for reference

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFL&type=Passing&rank=033&year=

Ok, Objectivity.

Tim Tebow number crunching time, it is not pretty, but I will give you an update.

19.3 QBR for the first 3 quarters of all his games.---- Anybody playing this bad shouldn't really be playing. We need to play Brady Quinn for 3 quarters, then by the looks of it, bring out Tebow for the 4th, we would be blowing teams out.

48% Completion rate. Worst in the League

He has a total of 43 completions in the first 3 quarters of every game we watched him this year which is 8. So we have witnessed an average of 1.79 Completions a quarter per game for the first 8 games with Tim Tebow. In other words, he isn't even completing 2 passes per quarter if you didnt get that.

39% completion rate in the first half, if you want to turn the TV on about half time to see if things are interesting, this would be the time to do it.

The first 20 attempts in a game, Tebow is around 44% completion rate.

33% completion rate in the 2nd quarter.

50% first and second down. All last statistically in the league, every stat.

30% completion rate when winning.

33% CR when passing to the left sideline

41% CR when passing to the right sideline. Passing to the sidelines is one of the most important passes in football period. This just means not enough arm strength and zip on the ball.

25% of all his completions are from behind the line of scrimmage.

40% CR when passing more then 11 yards.

41% CR when on the opponents 49-20

48% CR inside the opponents 20

47% CR when passing the ball out doors.

Compared to Aaron Rodgers who has been sacked 31 times in 438 Attempts. Tim Tebow has been sacked 23 times in 198 attempts. If Tebow had the same attempts as Aaron Rodgers, he would have been on pace to be sacked over 50 times this season.

The 3rd down conversion rate is the worst by a country mile.

If a QB doesn't have the skill to do special things with the ball like pass it. Then it doesn't happen. As you can see according to the numbers, Tim Tebow doesn't have the numbers to support anything really good.

The Denver Broncos have good wide recievers, Eddie Royal who was probowl I believe his rookie season, and had over a 1000 yards total offense his first 2 seasons. Also Eddie was drafted in the 2nd round.

D.Thomas who nobody really seen until this year is a first round talent, and showing us why he was drafted that high. Was the highest rated WR on most draft boards his draft year.

Decker is a good turn out, and for some odd reason, that seems to be Tebows main target most nights. I think the kid is tough, and takes big time hits. He is a keeper, and better then most taken in the 3rd round of any draft.

Again, the question is not about making excuses for lack of talent around Tebow, its more a question of Tebows lack of talent to get them the ball through the air. If Tebow can't pass the ball to the sidelines, or if any QB couldn't pass the ball to the sidelines, this league would have never had Randy Moss's, Cris Carters, Herman Moore, Marvin Harrison, Lynn Swann and those types of WRs in the NFL. Could you imagine the NFL without a Jerry Rice on the Go Route?? Thats how limited our Recieving core has been reduced too.

I believe we have the talent offensively to get it done with any team. How that talent is used, is another issue.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/13200/tim-tebow

[catfish]

if that is true, that doesnt say much for the players on this team.

as a folow up I don't think the level of effort has changed. I think they offense even with the three and outs is performing better in the field position battle.(only positive for this offense is lack of turnovers)Many more drives end in kicks rather than picks than did earlier in the season putting the D in a bad position a lower % of the time

[blamkin86]

I enjoy seeing the heart. More than anything I want the Broncos to want to win as much as I do.

Pretty much where I'm at Clay.

[wayninja]

Ok, Objectivity.

Tim Tebow number crunching time, it is not pretty, but I will give you an update.

19.3 QBR for the first 3 quarters of all his games.---- Anybody playing this bad shouldn't really be playing. We need to play Brady Quinn for 3 quarters, then by the looks of it, bring out Tebow for the 4th, we would be blowing teams out.

48% Completion rate. Worst in the League

He has a total of 43 completions in the first 3 quarters of every game we watched him this year which is 8. So we have witnessed an average of 1.79 Completions a quarter per game for the first 8 games with Tim Tebow. In other words, he isn't even completing 2 passes per quarter if you didnt get that.

39% completion rate in the first half, if you want to turn the TV on about half time to see if things are interesting, this would be the time to do it.

The first 20 attempts in a game, Tebow is around 44% completion rate.

33% completion rate in the 2nd quarter.

50% first and second down. All last statistically in the league, every stat.

30% completion rate when winning.

33% CR when passing to the left sideline

41% CR when passing to the right sideline. Passing to the sidelines is one of the most important passes in football period. This just means not enough arm strength and zip on the ball.

25% of all his completions are from behind the line of scrimmage.

40% CR when passing more then 11 yards.

41% CR when on the opponents 49-20

48% CR inside the opponents 20

47% CR when passing the ball out doors.

Compared to Aaron Rodgers who has been sacked 31 times in 438 Attempts. Tim Tebow has been sacked 23 times in 198 attempts. If Tebow had the same attempts as Aaron Rodgers, he would have been on pace to be sacked over 50 times this season.

The 3rd down conversion rate is the worst by a country mile.

If a QB doesn't have the skill to do special things with the ball like pass it. Then it doesn't happen. As you can see according to the numbers, Tim Tebow doesn't have the numbers to support anything really good.

The Denver Broncos have good wide recievers, Eddie Royal who was probowl I believe his rookie season, and had over a 1000 yards total offense his first 2 seasons. Also Eddie was drafted in the 2nd round.

D.Thomas who nobody really seen until this year is a first round talent, and showing us why he was drafted that high. Was the highest rated WR on most draft boards his draft year.

Decker is a good turn out, and for some odd reason, that seems to be Tebows main target most nights. I think the kid is tough, and takes big time hits. He is a keeper, and better then most taken in the 3rd round of any draft.

Again, the question is not about making excuses for lack of talent around Tebow, its more a question of Tebows lack of talent to get them the ball through the air. If Tebow can't pass the ball to the sidelines, or if any QB couldn't pass the ball to the sidelines, this league would have never had Randy Moss's, Cris Carters, Herman Moore, Marvin Harrison, Lynn Swann and those types of WRs in the NFL. Could you imagine the NFL without a Jerry Rice on the Go Route?? Thats how limited our Recieving core has been reduced too.

I believe we have the talent offensively to get it done with any team. How that talent is used, is another issue.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/13200/tim-tebow

Thank you. This the most one-sided, biased analysis I have ever seen. Not only do you talk about players performance years ago and draft projections that have not panned out, but you've also managed to completely ignore any of the good statistics while claiming to be 'objective'. Beyond silly.

[BroncoJoe]

Dropping a pass isnt unlucky, I feel it is a part of the game. There is bad luck, injuries etc...

I would like to add, that our recievers catching the ball on a more consistent basis would reduce the amount of luck required to win against mediocre/bad teams.

With that logic, you can't claim a fumble to be lucky.

[Canmore]

if that is true, that doesnt say much for the players on this team.

This is a team game and just that, a game. Maybe it's human nature to try just a little harder when you believe you can win versus being road kill at 1-4. I know these are professional athletes and it shouldn't matter but it sure appears that it does. A lot goes into the Broncos better play but Tim Tebow clearly plays a role.

[catfish]

Ok, Objectivity.

Tim Tebow number crunching time, it is not pretty, but I will give you an update.

19.3 QBR for the first 3 quarters of all his games.---- Anybody playing this bad shouldn't really be playing. We need to play Brady Quinn for 3 quarters, then by the looks of it, bring out Tebow for the 4th, we would be blowing teams out.

48% Completion rate. Worst in the League

He has a total of 43 completions in the first 3 quarters of every game we watched him this year which is 8. So we have witnessed an average of 1.79 Completions a quarter per game for the first 8 games with Tim Tebow. In other words, he isn't even completing 2 passes per quarter if you didnt get that.

39% completion rate in the first half, if you want to turn the TV on about half time to see if things are interesting, this would be the time to do it.

The first 20 attempts in a game, Tebow is around 44% completion rate.

33% completion rate in the 2nd quarter.

50% first and second down. All last statistically in the league, every stat.

30% completion rate when winning.

33% CR when passing to the left sideline

41% CR when passing to the right sideline. Passing to the sidelines is one of the most important passes in football period. This just means not enough arm strength and zip on the ball.

25% of all his completions are from behind the line of scrimmage.

40% CR when passing more then 11 yards.

41% CR when on the opponents 49-20

48% CR inside the opponents 20

47% CR when passing the ball out doors.

Compared to Aaron Rodgers who has been sacked 31 times in 438 Attempts. Tim Tebow has been sacked 23 times in 198 attempts. If Tebow had the same attempts as Aaron Rodgers, he would have been on pace to be sacked over 50 times this season.

The 3rd down conversion rate is the worst by a country mile.

If a QB doesn't have the skill to do special things with the ball like pass it. Then it doesn't happen. As you can see according to the numbers, Tim Tebow doesn't have the numbers to support anything really good.

The Denver Broncos have good wide recievers, Eddie Royal who was probowl I believe his rookie season, and had over a 1000 yards total offense his first 2 seasons. Also Eddie was drafted in the 2nd round.

D.Thomas who nobody really seen until this year is a first round talent, and showing us why he was drafted that high. Was the highest rated WR on most draft boards his draft year.

Decker is a good turn out, and for some odd reason, that seems to be Tebows main target most nights. I think the kid is tough, and takes big time hits. He is a keeper, and better then most taken in the 3rd round of any draft.

Again, the question is not about making excuses for lack of talent around Tebow, its more a question of Tebows lack of talent to get them the ball through the air. If Tebow can't pass the ball to the sidelines, or if any QB couldn't pass the ball to the sidelines, this league would have never had Randy Moss's, Cris Carters, Herman Moore, Marvin Harrison, Lynn Swann and those types of WRs in the NFL. Could you imagine the NFL without a Jerry Rice on the Go Route?? Thats how limited our Recieving core has been reduced too.

I believe we have the talent offensively to get it done with any team. How that talent is used, is another issue.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/13200/tim-tebow

now seperate those stats from the players around him. Arguing completinon % also argues receiver skill...which I have stated is not great, not just in drops, but ability to seperate and adjust to throws or fight for the completion. arguing sacks also argues pass protection which is ranked between bottom 6 and worst in the league depending on where you look.

You throw these stats out as if Tebow is the sole person responsible for the numbers, and in the first 2 games you may have had a case, but the fact remains that in the past few games Tebow has performed better than the rest of the offense, he has an above average QB rating which takes into account such unimportant things as TD passes and more importantly interceptions. Interceptions are the 1 stat that could be argued is under sole control of the QB as it is a function of decision making not skill at another position. He is also averaging more yards per carry than any RB on the team.

I am not going to come in here and say Tebow doesn't need any work, or that he would be lighting up the world with a better squad around him, but some people seem to think you could plug any QB into the offense you have here and he would be great, where more likely he would have a higher completion% balanced by more int and less rushing yards with more sacks

[BroncoJoe]

This is a team game and just that, a game. Maybe it's human nature to try just a little harder when you believe you can win versus being road kill at 1-4. I know these are professional athletes and it shouldn't matter but it sure appears that it does. A lot goes into the Broncos better play but Tim Tebow clearly plays a role.

Of course it matters! Professionals or not, if you don't have a clear-cut leader on the team, you're just not going to play as well or as hard.

[wayninja]

now seperate those stats from the players around him. Arguing completinon % also argues receiver skill...which I have stated is not great, not just in drops, but ability to seperate and adjust to throws or fight for the completion. arguing sacks also argues pass protection which is ranked between bottom 6 and worst in the league depending on where you look.

You throw these stats out as if Tebow is the sole person responsible for the numbers, and in the first 2 games you may have had a case, but the fact remains that in the past few games Tebow has performed better than the rest of the offense, he has an above average QB rating which takes into account such unimportant things as TD passes and more importantly interceptions. Interceptions are the 1 stat that could be argued is under sole control of the QB as it is a function of decision making not skill at another position. He is also averaging more yards per carry than any RB on the team.

I am not going to come in here and say Tebow doesn't need any work, or that he would be lighting up the world with a better squad around him, but some people seem to think you could plug any QB into the offense you have here and he would be great, where more likely he would have a higher completion% balanced by more int and less rushing yards with more sacks

LOL, if you can't manage to find anything complimentary about a QB who is 7-1 as a starter this season, it's because you don't want to find anything.

[vhatever]

Ok, Objectivity.



I believe we have the talent offensively to get it done with any team. How that talent is used, is another issue.



I hope they start using that talent to catch balls that keep hitting them in the hands.

[HammeredOut]

Thank you. This the most one-sided, biased analysis I have ever seen. Not only do you talk about players performance years ago and draft projections that have not panned out, but you've also managed to completely ignore any of the good statistics while claiming to be 'objective'. Beyond silly.

Don't shoot the messenger, I just provided the statistics. Its not me throwing the ball.

[blamkin86]

some people seem to think you could plug any QB into the offense you have here and he would be great, where more likely he would have a higher completion% balanced by more int and less rushing yards with more sacks

Well, technically I'm saying that you shouldn't be quoting any Tebow stats about completions without quoting the entire game.

How would you feel if I said DT was perfect in the 4th quarter? Kinda skewed narrative on his entire game result, right?

I'm just suggesting, if you are going to pull out stats, don't pull out some that favor a player and leave out the others.

I'm not a stats guy... which ultimately is why I like Tebow. It's not because he has a special something. It's because he has heart and wants the team to win. Stats are for losers, which Tim is not. You can also paint any picture you like with stats, which is why they're just a reflection of the game, and not the game itself. Which again, is why I like Tebow.

What you're suggesting is that everyone else is responsible for the drops. I disagree. I also think it's odd to expect perfection from receivers, but not expect it from a quarterback. Makes no sense.

Go back and look at his first couple games this year. Whoa those were some incredibly piss poor passes.

Repeating - take Tebow, and all the players, with a full-frame picture. Don't zone in on the parts you like and say isn't he great, without using the same positively-biased glasses on his receivers. Doing so is incongruous.

Also repeating, what we have now is so many light years above what I thought we'd have this year. I'm a happy fan; I'll take the (very) boring first three quarters for the wins.

[wayninja]

Don't shoot the messenger, I just provided the statistics. Its not me throwing the ball.

Oh? Those are all the statistics eh?

I guess this makes the story that the Broncos are 7-1 while starting at 1-4 with a far superior QB all the more fascinating. :coffee:

[MOtorboat]

Well, technically I'm saying that you shouldn't be quoting any Tebow stats about completions without quoting the entire game.

How would you feel if I said DT was perfect in the 4th quarter? Kinda skewed narrative on his entire game result, right?

I'm just suggesting, if you are going to pull out stats, don't pull out some that favor a player and leave out the others.

I'm not a stats guy... which ultimately is why I like Tebow. It's not because he has a special something. It's because he has heart and wants the team to win. Stats are for losers, which Tim is not. You can also paint any picture you like with stats, which is why they're just a reflection of the game, and not the game itself. Which again, is why I like Tebow.

What you're suggesting is that everyone else is responsible for the drops. I disagree. I also think it's odd to expect perfection from receivers, but not expect it from a quarterback. Makes no sense.

Go back and look at his first couple games this year. Whoa those were some incredibly piss poor passes.

Repeating - take Tebow, and all the players, with a full-frame picture. Don't zone in on the parts you like and say isn't he great, without using the same positively-biased glasses on his receivers. Doing so is incongruous.

Also repeating, what we have now is so many light years above what I thought we'd have this year. I'm a happy fan; I'll take the (very) boring first three quarters for the wins.

Said better than me.

:salute:

[MOtorboat]

Oh? Those are all the statistics eh?

I guess this makes the story that the Broncos are 7-1 while starting at 1-4 with a far superior QB all the more fascinating. :coffee:

Did he mention the left-handed thing? I didn't read all of it.

[slim]

I see the fact that they didnt have their starting QB and RB as luck. I see the Out of bounds run, and fumble by Barber as an absolute freakin miracle.

Im not even throwing the 2 field goals in there. If you count those 2 things, it took 6 major ball bounces/luck in our favor to beat a team that only scored 10 points.

Was the dropped TD by DT luck?

How about the blocked FG....who's luck was that?

How about all of the other dropped passes....luck for the Bears?

It all evens out, Clayton.

[HammeredOut]

Did he mention the left-handed thing? I didn't read all of it.

lol..

[catfish]

Well, technically I'm saying that you shouldn't be quoting any Tebow stats about completions without quoting the entire game.

How would you feel if I said DT was perfect in the 4th quarter? Kinda skewed narrative on his entire game result, right?

I'm just suggesting, if you are going to pull out stats, don't pull out some that favor a player and leave out the others.

I'm not a stats guy... which ultimately is why I like Tebow. It's not because he has a special something. It's because he has heart and wants the team to win. Stats are for losers, which Tim is not. You can also paint any picture you like with stats, which is why they're just a reflection of the game, and not the game itself. Which again, is why I like Tebow.

What you're suggesting is that everyone else is responsible for the drops. I disagree. I also think it's odd to expect perfection from receivers, but not expect it from a quarterback. Makes no sense.

Go back and look at his first couple games this year. Whoa those were some incredibly piss poor passes.

Repeating - take Tebow, and all the players, with a full-frame picture. Don't zone in on the parts you like and say isn't he great, without using the same positively-biased glasses on his receivers. Doing so is incongruous.

Also repeating, what we have now is so many light years above what I thought we'd have this year. I'm a happy fan; I'll take the (very) boring first three quarters for the wins.


My argument is actually very similar to yours. I think the game should be taken as a whole, and as a whole it was decent/below average all around.
I don't expect perfection from receivers, drops are part of the game it happens. I am not killing them for that. I understand they are young and have a lot of room to grow(same with the QB) 6 drops in a game is a ridiculously high number, and when you consider the number of passes thrown in total the drops have been happening at a higher rate than other teams overall, but this game is the abberation not the norm, plus they won so it all comes out in the wash. I was pulling out stats to counter the selective stats in the previous post, not because I think it is indicative of future performance.

I don't take any offense to people saying that Tebow is a work in progress(I agree) or when people say he needs to perform better in the first 3 quarters(I agree) what I take offense to is the insinuation that the offense is not producing because Tebow is the QB when in reality there are many variables that affect the offenses production overall.

I counter the selective Tebow stats with selective team stats to highlight how ridiculous the arguments often are. I'm not trying to excuse Tebows play, all I have stated is that I want to see constant improvement from him...and the eye test says he is improving(the fact that they are winning has me just as suprised as anyone). You can use stats to make any qb in the NFL look great or look like crap same with any other position on the field

[jhildebrand]

I posted the run game would improve with Tebow under center as opposed to Orton. Teams would have to respect Tebows ability to run. If they stack 8 he would find a way to make the pass. If they dont stack he can imropvise: CHECK.

Running more would lead to better TOP and a fresher D-as it did last year which resulted in the Houston win:check

I said conversions would improve: NOT A CHECK :lol:

The bottom line is this team wasn't nearly as bad as it appeared to be with Orton as the QB and McD the coach. Orton was severely limited and his limitations happened to exacerbate this team's weaknesses.

McD was just a terrible coach (as he is in St Louis as was on full display Monday Night). He was a square peg into a round hole kind of guy. He forced his scheme on to the players while Fox is taking the players and adjusting the scheme.

At what point does this not happen to be coincidence anymore! In fact when was the last time the Broncos won 7 out of 8? :confused:

Coincidence was McDaniels going 6-0. There was no real substance or identity to it.

Tebow gives this team an identity!

[BroncoNut]

no offense, but shove it tned, this is getting gay

no offense Tned, but I saluted this thread. time to man up and become a real man. A fanboi of Hotcarl.

[slim]

Dropping a pass isnt unlucky, I feel it is a part of the game. There is bad luck, injuries etc...

I would like to add, that our recievers catching the ball on a more consistent basis would reduce the amount of luck required to win against mediocre/bad teams.

If dropping a pass is "part of the game", then so are injuries.

[NightTerror218]

I think the offense is playing better with Tebow, just because of his work ethic and his drive. He gives 100% and does not let down. He has severe passion. I have no doubt that the defense sees this and feeds off him. He does not play on defense but the defense believes he can do it and is doing it. Why else was Carter "Tebowing" at Chargers midfield, it did it for Tebow. I think the whole team is playing better since TT is at the helm. The offense is no longer passing the ball because the run is horrid, but they are playing Fox football by running the ball. They may have added spread and option but we are a running team which is what Fox wanted this team to be.

[blamkin86]

I counter the selective Tebow stats with selective team stats to highlight how ridiculous the arguments often are. I'm not trying to excuse Tebows play, all I have stated is that I want to see constant improvement from him...and the eye test says he is improving(the fact that they are winning has me just as suprised as anyone). You can use stats to make any qb in the NFL look great or look like crap same with any other position on the field

Yes, point taken, and well said.

And, honestly the game after the Lions game, you could see the kid improving.

Guess I've moved on and personally see and expect the improvement from TT every game. The upside with this kid is huge.

[claymore]

With that logic, you can't claim a fumble to be lucky.

If a dropped pass is considered unlucky, then it is a way lesser form of bad luck then a fumble in the waning moments of a game.

On any given sunday, I would bet that there are far more dropped passes than fumbles recoverd by the opposing team.

[Cugel]

Barber didn't run out of bounds he was forced out.

Yeah, right! And he couldn't have taken a KNEE when all he needed to do was hold onto the ball and stay in bounds? :rolleyes:

He didn't need to gain a yard. Yardage didn't matter a damn. The Broncos had ZERO time outs and couldn't stop the clock. They were just trying to run a few extra seconds off the clock by running the ball instead of just having the QB take a knee. And it backfired because the RB is a complete and total moron. :coffee:

The Broncos are in a streak similar to the streak of amazing luck they had in the first 6 games of 2009 where teams just implode and do insanely stupid things at the end of games to lose when they have the game won. Going for a 2 point conversion and losing by 1 point. Running out of bounds. Touching the ball before it's traveled 10 yards on an on-side kickoff -- thus allowing the Broncos to recover.

Teams are self-destructing. Well that can't happen forever. Tebow had nothing to do with that.

In realism as opposed to Tebow worship Tim has done a good job. He's improved his passing accuracy which is the most important thing. The team has rallied around him which is nice, but is more a product of the team winning than anything else. They rallied around Kyle Orton in 2009 too for all the good it did them.

The Broncos are playing a last place schedule and all the teams on that schedule have been beating themselves in totally amazing ways through insane coaching decisions, incomprehensible, stupid player mistakes, fumbles and unforced errors.

What would the opinion of Tim Tebow be if he'd played exactly as he has -- except that they lost 3 more games because teams did NOT self-destruct and hand him the game?

His progress would still be encouraging for next season, but the ridiculous Tebow-worship would stop. And that is exactly what is going to happen as soon as the Broncos lose a couple of games. Which WILL happen.

At that point we can get rid of the absurd hype about Tebow and admit he's a young QB who has made some strides towards being an acceptable pocket passing QB in the NFL. And that is more than I thought he could make during the season. He certainly deserves some credit and the coaching staff deserves more for creating an offensive scheme he can handle.

[HammeredOut]

If a dropped pass is considered unlucky, then it is a way lesser form of bad luck then a fumble in the waning moments of a game.

On any given sunday, I would bet that there are far more dropped passes than fumbles recoverd by the opposing team.

People have to consider that if we just scored 2 touchdowns in the first half, we wouldnt need any 4th quarter comebacks, would could just sit on the defense to win us games.

[slim]

People have to consider that if we just scored 2 touchdowns in the first half, we wouldnt need any 4th quarter comebacks, would could just sit on the defense to win us games.

I think you have to consider that without all the bad luck we have been having, Denver would have lead 10-0 at halftime.

[NightTerror218]

Ok Barber had a mistake, but in his defense. He thought he could have gotten the first down and was pushing for it. He was close too. He had a good run going. He was forced out of bounds, if he was not, he could have just dropped to the ground before going out of bounds.

If Barber got the 1st down the game would have been sealed. 2 knees and the game was over.

[Mike]

Ifs, ifs, ifs.

Bottom line, the Broncos have been placed in the situations they were in and captilized on it....again and again. Lesser men and lesser teams have failed to take advantage of such situations. The Broncos rise to the occassion and that in itself is a good thing. With better players and growth from our youngsters this core group will develop into something special.

[Cugel]

If a dropped pass is considered unlucky, then it is a way lesser form of bad luck then a fumble in the waning moments of a game.

On any given sunday, I would bet that there are far more dropped passes than fumbles recoverd by the opposing team.

A dropped pass is NOT "unlucky." That's just idiotic. Dropping a pass that hits you square on the hands is just a stupid play by a player. That's incompetence, not bad luck! Luck had ZERO to do with Decker and Thomas being incapable of doing their damn jobs for 3 quarters!

[slim]

A dropped pass is NOT "unlucky." That's just idiotic. Dropping a pass that hits you square on the hands is just a stupid play by a player. That's incompetence, not bad luck! Luck had ZERO to do with Decker and Thomas being incapable of doing their damn jobs for 3 quarters!

So, then fumbling and/or running out of bounds is incompetence and has nothing to do with luck.

[Cugel]

Ifs, ifs, ifs.

Bottom line, the Broncos have been placed in the situations they were in and captilized on it....again and again. Lesser men and lesser teams have failed to take advantage of such situations. The Broncos rise to the occassion and that in itself is a good thing. With better players and growth from our youngsters this core group will develop into something special.

This is true, but it sidesteps the question. "What will this team do when, inevitably, opponents STOP shooting themselves in the foot? What will they do when every bounce DOESN'T go their way? When they have a few bad breaks and lose a couple of games?"

You saw that last season with the Packers who lost about 15 players to injury during the season and yet found a way to overcome adversity and win a championship.

Well the Broncos have not been tested yet. Everything has gone their way. TEams are self-destructing right and left. It's a wild ride but like winning at roulette it ain't going to last forever.

So, the question is: "what type of team do the Broncos have in adversity?" We don't know that yet. So, it's appropriate to point out that the current winning streak is NOT the result of amazing play, but more the result of insane luck that isn't going to last. They lost 3 games but their opponents simply handed the game away turning certain victory into defeat in ridiculous ways. That can't last forever.

[vhatever]

A dropped pass is NOT "unlucky." That's just idiotic. Dropping a pass that hits you square on the hands is just a stupid play by a player. That's incompetence, not bad luck! Luck had ZERO to do with Decker and Thomas being incapable of doing their damn jobs for 3 quarters!

That's kinda of the problem qualifying "luck". I think the only thing that truly qualifies as luck is the coin flips and officials' bias/ineptitude.

[Northman]

So, then fumbling and/or running out of bounds is incompetence and has nothing to do with luck.


:lol::lol:

Ouch, nice one Slim.

[catfish]

This is true, but it sidesteps the question. "What will this team do when, inevitably, opponents STOP shooting themselves in the foot? What will they do when every bounce DOESN'T go their way? When they have a few bad breaks and lose a couple of games?"

You saw that last season with the Packers who lost about 15 players to injury during the season and yet found a way to overcome adversity and win a championship.

Well the Broncos have not been tested yet. Everything has gone their way. TEams are self-destructing right and left. It's a wild ride but like winning at roulette it ain't going to last forever.

So, the question is: "what type of team do the Broncos have in adversity?" We don't know that yet. So, it's appropriate to point out that the current winning streak is NOT the result of amazing play, but more the result of insane luck that isn't going to last. They lost 3 games but their opponents simply handed the game away turning certain victory into defeat in ridiculous ways. That can't last forever.


What is going to happen is the same thing that happens any time 1 team makes more costly mistakes than the other team...they will lose.

Its the reason for the saying more games are lost than are won.

All games are a combination of Great, average and bad plays. The team with the most great plays, or the fewest bad play wins. Green Bay play Great plays football, Denver plays to limit the bad plays. It's all where the strengths lie

[Cugel]

Ok Barber had a mistake, but in his defense. He thought he could have gotten the first down and was pushing for it. He was close too. He had a good run going. He was forced out of bounds, if he was not, he could have just dropped to the ground before going out of bounds.

If Barber got the 1st down the game would have been sealed. 2 knees and the game was over.

Wrong. Barber didn't NEED a 1st down. Two plays runs 1 minute 20 seconds off the clock. All he had to do was run with the ball and not fumble and stay in bounds. Teams practice that every week. It is NOT an unfamiliar situation. He's just a complete moron who "forgot" his coaching in a key situation.

The only reason they ran the ball instead of the QB taking a knee was to run a few extra seconds off the clock, because as soon as the play's over they start the 40 second clock. So, run and take 5 or 6 seconds off the clock, then take a knee and start the 40 second clock. Total time elapsed after 2 plays? One minute and 30 seconds. Game over. That way they don't have to risk punting the ball with 10 or 15 seconds left on the clock and give the Broncos a chance of making a hail mary pass and setting up the tying FG.

And then after he ran out of bounds he hit himself on the head. "Duh. I KNEW there was something I was supposed to do! Not run out of bounds!" :rolleyes:

[Mike]

This is true, but it sidesteps the question. "What will this team do when, inevitably, opponents STOP shooting themselves in the foot? What will they do when every bounce DOESN'T go their way? When they have a few bad breaks and lose a couple of games?"

You saw that last season with the Packers who lost about 15 players to injury during the season and yet found a way to overcome adversity and win a championship.

Well the Broncos have not been tested yet. Everything has gone their way. TEams are self-destructing right and left. It's a wild ride but like winning at roulette it ain't going to last forever.

So, the question is: "what type of team do the Broncos have in adversity?" We don't know that yet. So, it's appropriate to point out that the current winning streak is NOT the result of amazing play, but more the result of insane luck that isn't going to last. They lost 3 games but their opponents simply handed the game away turning certain victory into defeat in ridiculous ways. That can't last forever.

I think the Broncos have been tested, personally. They face adversity virtually every Sunday.

Personally, the question I ask is what is this offense capable of when the coaches aren't shooting themselves in the foot.

[NightTerror218]

Ifs, ifs, ifs.

Bottom line, the Broncos have been placed in the situations they were in and captilized on it....again and again. Lesser men and lesser teams have failed to take advantage of such situations. The Broncos rise to the occassion and that in itself is a good thing. With better players and growth from our youngsters this core group will develop into something special.

That is exactly what I have been reading this week. Broncos playing very sound fundamental football right now. Low mistakes (turn overs) and old school traditional running. In the games where a play must be made, either they make one or capitalize off a mistake. Both offense and defense do this in the dire moments. AND I LOVE IT!!!!

[NightTerror218]

Wrong. Barber didn't NEED a 1st down. Two plays runs 1 minute 20 seconds off the clock. All he had to do was run with the ball and not fumble and stay in bounds. Teams practice that every week. It is NOT an unfamiliar situation. He's just a complete moron who "forgot" his coaching in a key situation.

The only reason they ran the ball instead of the QB taking a knee was to run a few extra seconds off the clock, because as soon as the play's over they start the 40 second clock. So, run and take 5 or 6 seconds off the clock, then take a knee and start the 40 second clock. Total time elapsed after 2 plays? One minute and 30 seconds. Game over.

And then after he ran out of bounds he hit himself on the head. "Duh. I KNEW there was something I was supposed to do! Not run out of bounds!" :rolleyes:

I never said he NEEDED a first down but he WANTED to get one to seal the game. Because they were going to have to punt no matter what, but Broncos would have only had like 10 seconds.

[Cugel]

What is going to happen is the same thing that happens any time 1 team makes more costly mistakes than the other team...they will lose.

Its the reason for the saying more games are lost than are won.

All games are a combination of Great, average and bad plays. The team with the most great plays, or the fewest bad play wins. Green Bay play Great plays football, Denver plays to limit the bad plays. It's all where the strengths lie

Yes, but none of that is at all relevant! The Broncos aren't going anywhere THIS season, so how many games they win THIS year isn't going to matter. They might host a playoff game but they are NOT going to be able to beat the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots on the road to go to the SB.

The only thing that matters is building for the future. And to do that they need to strengthen their player roster, gain depth and learn how to deal with adversity. A nice run of luck is great, but it's not going to continue like this next year any more than it lasted in 2009.

[vhatever]

Wrong. Barber didn't NEED a 1st down. Two plays runs 1 minute 20 seconds off the clock. All he had to do was run with the ball and not fumble and stay in bounds. Teams practice that every week. It is NOT an unfamiliar situation. He's just a complete moron who "forgot" his coaching in a key situation.


Why not just victory formation it and not risk a fumble? Coaching decision. The coach must be aware or not barber is a "moron" and call plays accordingly.

[Jsteve01]

Yes, but none of that is at all relevant! The Broncos aren't going anywhere THIS season, so how many games they win THIS year isn't going to matter. They might host a playoff game but they are NOT going to be able to beat the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots on the road to go to the SB.

The only thing that matters is building for the future. And to do that they need to strengthen their player roster, gain depth and learn how to deal with adversity. A nice run of luck is great, but it's not going to continue like this next year any more than it lasted in 2009.

poop on people's parades much?

[Cugel]

I never said he NEEDED a first down but he WANTED to get one to seal the game. Because they were going to have to punt no matter what, but Broncos would have only had like 10 seconds.

You're mistaken. They were NOT going to have to punt. THAT was the entire point! Run the ball twice, take 10-15 seconds off the clock, then the 40 second clock starts between plays. 120 seconds plus 15 seconds runs out the clock before they have to punt.

[wayninja]

People have to consider that if we just scored 2 touchdowns in the first half, we wouldnt need any 4th quarter comebacks, would could just sit on the defense to win us games.

Or if we scored 1 in the first half and 1 in the second half. Or 2 in the 3rd quarter. Or just about any other permutation that ultimately ends up in the same result.

Deep.

[NightTerror218]

Yes, but none of that is at all relevant! The Broncos aren't going anywhere THIS season, so how many games they win THIS year isn't going to matter. They might host a playoff game but they are NOT going to be able to beat the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots on the road to go to the SB.

The only thing that matters is building for the future. And to do that they need to strengthen their player roster, gain depth and learn how to deal with adversity. A nice run of luck is great, but it's not going to continue like this next year any more than it lasted in 2009.

I love how much you eat crow for all your asinine comments and speculations. You have been wrong 100% of the time this season. You said TT is gone after the season, will not win a game, will not pass, we will have top 10 draft pick, we will get Barkley/Jones/Luck no questions and will only have 3 wins maybe.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::Cry::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[vhatever]

You're mistaken. They were NOT going to have to punt. THAT was the entire point! Run the ball twice, take 10-15 seconds off the clock, then the 40 second clock starts between plays. 120 seconds plus 15 seconds runs out the clock before they have to punt.

Would have had enough time left for a couple plays no matter what the bears did if they didn't convert. Also the possibility of a FG/TD punt return. All we needed to do was get in FG range... very doable with prater at mile high.

[wayninja]

What will they do when every bounce DOESN'T go their way? When they have a few bad breaks and lose a couple of games?"

Like the onside kick for instance?

Or the officiating (or lack thereof) in Minnesota or the 2 challenges won by Minnesota?

We definitely do not have 'everything go our way', but we take advantage more often than not when we have an opportunity to answer a score or win the game.

[NightTerror218]

You're mistaken. They were NOT going to have to punt. THAT was the entire point! Run the ball twice, take 10-15 seconds off the clock, then the 40 second clock starts between plays. 120 seconds plus 15 seconds runs out the clock before they have to punt.


After 1st play, 2 min warning auto clock stop. 2nd play Baber out of bounds. 3rd play run. 4th punt.

Most time that could have came off the clock after 2nd play...40 seconds, after 3rd play 40 seconds. that is 80 seconds. The play would be extra 5 seconds. That is 10 seconds. so a total of 90 seconds off the clock in 2 plays. The clock was around 1:50 (110 seconds). That would have given us 20 seconds with the ball punted to us and maybe 12 seconds after the punt. Barber going out of bounds saved us 40 seconds. We got the ball back with 53 seconds. that just shows that the plays were short and barber saved 40 seconds.

[catfish]

You're mistaken. They were NOT going to have to punt. THAT was the entire point! Run the ball twice, take 10-15 seconds off the clock, then the 40 second clock starts between plays. 120 seconds plus 15 seconds runs out the clock before they have to punt.

I think it was 2nd down at the 2:00 warning. they were looking at giving the ball back with approximately 30 seconds left, with a good punt return, or 1 big play and proof that Prater can hit a 59 yarder they tried to get the first to run out the clock

[NightTerror218]

Like the onside kick for instance?

Or the officiating (or lack thereof) in Minnesota or the 2 challenges won by Minnesota?

We definitely do not have 'everything go our way', but we take advantage more often than not when we have an opportunity to answer a score or win the game.

Or a blocked FG.

[NightTerror218]

I think it was 2nd down at the 2:00 warning. they were looking at giving the ball back with approximately 30 seconds left, with a good punt return, or 1 big play and proof that Prater can hit a 59 yarder they tried to get the first to run out the clock

I did a break down. But you are correct. they ran 1st play at 2:08 left on clock and then 2 min warning hit.

[wayninja]

Yes, but none of that is at all relevant! The Broncos aren't going anywhere THIS season, so how many games they win THIS year isn't going to matter. They might host a playoff game but they are NOT going to be able to beat the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots on the road to go to the SB.

The only thing that matters is building for the future. And to do that they need to strengthen their player roster, gain depth and learn how to deal with adversity. A nice run of luck is great, but it's not going to continue like this next year any more than it lasted in 2009.

By this logic, only Green Bay should continue putting forth effort at this point. No one else (statistically) is going to win, so they may as well put in 3rd stringers and keep their good players healthy and lose as many games as possible in order to build for the future.

[catfish]

After 1st play, 2 min warning auto clock stop. 2nd play Baber out of bounds. 3rd play run. 4th punt.

Most time that could have came off the clock after 2nd play...40 seconds, after 3rd play 40 seconds. that is 80 seconds. The play would be extra 5 seconds. That is 10 seconds. so a total of 90 seconds off the clock in 2 plays. The clock was around 1:50 (110 seconds). That would have given us 20 seconds with the ball punted to us and maybe 12 seconds after the punt. Barber going out of bounds saved us 40 seconds. We got the ball back with 58 seconds. that just shows that the plays were short and barber saved 40 seconds.

they moved the ball to where the FG was kicked in 26 seconds. plus the return time.

[NightTerror218]

they moved the ball to where the FG was kicked in 26 seconds. plus the return time.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=311211007&period=4

I wish they had the time of possession for each play.

[wayninja]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=311211007&period=4

I wish they had the time of possession for each play.

It really doesn't need to be proved any more. Either Barber didn't have his head in the game, or he was trying to be a hero and convert the first down to seal it. Either way, he screwed up.

[catfish]

Yes, but none of that is at all relevant! The Broncos aren't going anywhere THIS season, so how many games they win THIS year isn't going to matter. They might host a playoff game but they are NOT going to be able to beat the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots on the road to go to the SB.

The only thing that matters is building for the future. And to do that they need to strengthen their player roster, gain depth and learn how to deal with adversity. A nice run of luck is great, but it's not going to continue like this next year any more than it lasted in 2009.

the Broncos are very likely going to the playoffs this year which is a damn sight further than a lot of teams, and a hell of a lot better than I would have expected from a team with 4 wins last year. I don't really undertand how you can say they arent going anywhere. the Colts aren't going anywhere or carolina or the Vikings...Denver at least has a shot.

What are you saying should happen people should bitch about the season because you most likely wont win a superbowl? IIRC this team hasn't been to the playoffs since '05. I would be excited that even though there are glaring holes on the roster and the team is young overall this team is trending up instead of constantly circling the bowl

[NightTerror218]

It really doesn't need to be proved any more. Either Barber didn't have his head in the game, or he was trying to be a hero and convert the first down to seal it. Either way, he screwed up.

That link was just for reference to Cat.

[catfish]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=311211007&period=4

I wish they had the time of possession for each play.

here you go, has time on clock when play started...subraction and tadaa!

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011121111/2011/REG14/bears@broncos#menu=highlights&tab=analyze&analyze=playbyplay

[TXBRONC]

I don't have a problem with the rest, but this one just isn't true. We've remained pretty close with other teams in TOP, but our 3 and outs have really hurt our ability to dominate TOP. Here's a breakdown.


DEN 34:17, MIA 33:19
DEN 30:26, DET 29:34
DEN 31:51, OAK 28:09
DEN 33:28, KC 26:22
DEN 27:48, NYJ 32:12
DEN 37:08, SD 37:23
DEN 22:09, MIN 37:51
DEN 34:39, CHI 31:47
4:11:46, 4:16:37


We have 5 games were we won the TOP battle and 3 where we lost since Tebow has started. The only game I would think were we really dominated TOP was the KC game, but that's overshadowed by how much longer Minnesota had the ball than us. Hardly 'dominating'. In total, opponents have had the ball for almost 5 more minutes over the stretch of 8 games than the broncos.

With the kind of offense we run, we really SHOULD be winning this battle much more conclusively, but again 3rd down conversion and amount of 3-and-outs are just killing this for us. I think if we DID have dominating TOP, we would also be scoring much more than just the 4th quarter.

The low 3rd down conversion rate a big problem that cuts into time of possession but when you're offense is still holding onto the ball for 30 or more minutes a game it means your defense is getting plenty rest. Now I could very easily be wrong about this but I don't think Fox and McCoy are worried if they don't win time of possession battle by five minutes or more per game. I think what would like to do is get more points our the t.o.p. that they are getting.

[Jsteve01]

at least least he's laid off the coffee drinking icons recently. That smug little icon doesn't play so well when you're just flat wrong. :shocked:

[Ravage!!!]

Well, I know I was calling it "coincidental winning" when Orton won 6 in a row due to our Defense playing lights out in '09. Right now, our defense is playing lights out. :salute: to our defense and special teams for keeping us in the games! Way to go boys! :salute:

[Tned]

Coincidental Tebow Quarterback Rating is 19.3 for the first 3 quarters of the football game. And the Defense kept the team in the game.

In Orton's 4 1/2 games his passer rating was 75.2 and he had 8 TD's vs. 7 INT's. In Tebow's 8 1/2 games, his passer rating is 83.9 and he has 11 TD's vs. 2 INT's.

There is no doubt the defense is playing well and a BIG part of the Broncos turn around, but the defense was also the reason we won the Cincy game, and in Ten and Oak where it was a close loss.

The point was not that Tebow is great and doing it all. I certainly have never said that in this thread or anyplace, but instead to take the position that some people are that the winning is in spite of Tebow or that he has little to do with the turn around, is the coincidental winning BS.

[rcsodak]

Was the dropped TD by DT luck?

How about the blocked FG....who's luck was that?

How about all of the other dropped passes....luck for the Bears?

It all evens out, Clayton.

I'd still like to know when this "droppes sure td pass" was.

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[Tned]

The Broncos are playing a last place schedule and all the teams on that schedule have been beating themselves in totally amazing ways through insane coaching decisions, incomprehensible, stupid player mistakes, fumbles and unforced errors.


You do realize that a "last place schedule" is only two games different than a "first place schedule." Right?

The difference between the Chief's "first place schedule" and Broncos "last place schedule" is KC played Indy and Pitt, Broncos played Titans and Cincy.

Not a whole lot different. It's very easy to argue that KC's first place schedule is easier than the Broncos last place schedule.

[Tned]

Yes, but none of that is at all relevant! The Broncos aren't going anywhere THIS season, so how many games they win THIS year isn't going to matter. They might host a playoff game but they are NOT going to be able to beat the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots on the road to go to the SB.

The only thing that matters is building for the future. And to do that they need to strengthen their player roster, gain depth and learn how to deal with adversity. A nice run of luck is great, but it's not going to continue like this next year any more than it lasted in 2009.

Quoted for future reference.

While the odds are against the Broncos being able to make a deep playoff run, I always find it amusing when people post absolutes like this.

[wayninja]

The low 3rd down conversion rate a big problem that cuts into time of possession but when you're offense is still holding onto the ball for 30 or more minutes a game it means your defense is getting plenty rest. Now I could very easily be wrong about this but I don't think Fox and McCoy are worried if they don't win time of possession battle by five minutes or more per game. I think what would like to do is get more points our the t.o.p. that they are getting.

Possibly, but my point really wan't to say that ToP is the most important thing, just disputing Tned's assertion that we are dominating ToP since Timmy took over.

To your other point though, I think if we did have 5 more mins of ToP, we would ALSO have more points. Prater is money and our redzone offense is actually pretty efficient.

[wayninja]

I'd still like to know when this "droppes sure td pass" was.

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Why? Seems like you will just forget again in a page or two anyway...

[rcsodak]

So, then fumbling and/or running out of bounds is incompetence and has nothing to do with luck.
I'd agree with the oob, but not the fumble.
Barber had nothing but green ahead of him after he cleard the los. Woody came from his blind side and only had a shot at his arm/ball. It was a bangbang play.
Btw, barber had over 300 carries since his last fumble.

That qualifies as luck, to me.

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[catfish]

I'd still like to know when this "droppes sure td pass" was.

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the long pass to DT that hit him in the hands on the run, 2 steps past the nearest defender is the one they are referring to.

DT came out in the media and said he short armed it and should have brought it in in case there is disagreement on if it was a drop

edit: link to quote

http://www.denverpost.com/commented/ci_19535107?source=commented-broncos

[rcsodak]

That is exactly what I have been reading this week. Broncos playing very sound fundamental football right now. Low mistakes (turn overs) and old school traditional running. In the games where a play must be made, either they make one or capitalize off a mistake. Both offense and defense do this in the dire moments. AND I LOVE IT!!!!
Ironically, theyre playing/winnin the identical way KC did last year. Running the ball, good defense, good special teams, smart, limited mistakes.

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[Tned]

I'd agree with the oob, but not the fumble.
Barber had nothing but green ahead of him after he cleard the los. Woody came from his blind side and only had a shot at his arm/ball. It was a bangbang play.
Btw, barber had over 300 carries since his last fumble.

That qualifies as luck, to me.

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Am I reading this right, you are calling the fumble "luck"? So, if a QB throws an INT, it's luck? When Orton fumbles at the end of a game or throws a pick when attempting to lead a game winning drive, it's "luck" by the other team?

I guess in the same light it was "bad luck" that Barber's pass, which on replay appeared to hit the ground, wasn't reviewed on the play prior to the fumble.

This whole line of discussion is beyond silly, to try and parse which events in a football game are luck. Silly.

Now, all of that said, while Cugel is wrong about the fact the Bears could have run the clock out, as the Broncos would have had between 23-30 seconds at the conclusion of fielding the punt, the fact is that a vet running back shouldn't have gone out of bounds and given the Broncos an extra 40 seconds.

[rcsodak]

Why? Seems like you will just forget again in a page or two anyway...
I've yet to see an answer, your highness.

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[catfish]

I've yet to see an answer, your highness.

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see # 136

[rcsodak]

the long pass to DT that hit him in the hands on the run, 2 steps past the nearest defender is the one they are referring to.

DT came out in the media and said he short armed it and should have brought it in in case there is disagreement on if it was a drop
Thx.
But i contend since it barely touched his fingertips, it wasnt a "dropped pass".
Over the shoulder, running wide open.....that wouldve been a highlight reel catch, imo.

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[TXBRONC]

Yeah, right! And he couldn't have taken a KNEE when all he needed to do was hold onto the ball and stay in bounds? :rolleyes:

He didn't need to gain a yard. Yardage didn't matter a damn. The Broncos had ZERO time outs and couldn't stop the clock. They were just trying to run a few extra seconds off the clock by running the ball instead of just having the QB take a knee. And it backfired because the RB is a complete and total moron. :coffee:

The Broncos are in a streak similar to the streak of amazing luck they had in the first 6 games of 2009 where teams just implode and do insanely stupid things at the end of games to lose when they have the game won. Going for a 2 point conversion and losing by 1 point. Running out of bounds. Touching the ball before it's traveled 10 yards on an on-side kickoff -- thus allowing the Broncos to recover.

Teams are self-destructing. Well that can't happen forever. Tebow had nothing to do with that.

In realism as opposed to Tebow worship Tim has done a good job. He's improved his passing accuracy which is the most important thing. The team has rallied around him which is nice, but is more a product of the team winning than anything else. They rallied around Kyle Orton in 2009 too for all the good it did them.

The Broncos are playing a last place schedule and all the teams on that schedule have been beating themselves in totally amazing ways through insane coaching decisions, incomprehensible, stupid player mistakes, fumbles and unforced errors.

What would the opinion of Tim Tebow be if he'd played exactly as he has -- except that they lost 3 more games because teams did NOT self-destruct and hand him the game?

His progress would still be encouraging for next season, but the ridiculous Tebow-worship would stop. And that is exactly what is going to happen as soon as the Broncos lose a couple of games. Which WILL happen.

At that point we can get rid of the absurd hype about Tebow and admit he's a young QB who has made some strides towards being an acceptable pocket passing QB in the NFL. And that is more than I thought he could make during the season. He certainly deserves some credit and the coaching staff deserves more for creating an offensive scheme he can handle.

I'm curious how does saying D.J. Williams forced Barber out of bounds giving all the credit to Tebow? Instead of being sarcastic why don't you read what I actually posted.

I think everyone on the planet who watched game knows what the Bears were trying to do by handing the ball off to Barber.

If you're calling me a Tebow worshiper that's nonsense. Taking one comment that had nothing to do with Tebow and turning it into rant is uncalled for.

It's also complete bullshit that Denver winning game solely because their opponents are self destructing. Mistakes happen in just about every freakin game it how each side handles it that makes a difference.

You mentioned the Miami game and Sprano's mistake of going for two points. I guess you forgot that Prater missed two field goals in that game as well. I guess also forgot that Denver has had their fair share calls that have gone against them in this win streak. Things like pass interference calls that don't get called with a official not more that five feet away from the play. Face masking that didn't called or better yet how about a pass reception that should have been reviewed and didn't.

Finally you should get your facts straight as who is Tebow worshipper. I'm not one of them that says Tebow is the only reason been winning.

[catfish]

Thx.
But i contend since it barely touched his fingertips, it wasnt a "dropped pass".
Over the shoulder, running wide open.....that wouldve been a highlight reel catch, imo.

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if he hadn't short armed it it would have hit him in the hands. If the receiver fails to extend his arms that is on the receiver not the qb. I agree that he was running flat out, but getting your arms fully extensded is part of being an NFL quality receiver. That pass was dropped over the shoulder about as well as any pass I have ever seen. Again they won so water under the bridge. It is just something he needs to work on in the future.

[claymore]

Am I reading this right, you are calling the fumble "luck"? So, if a QB throws an INT, it's luck? When Orton fumbles at the end of a game or throws a pick when attempting to lead a game winning drive, it's "luck" by the other team?

I guess in the same light it was "bad luck" that Barber's pass, which on replay appeared to hit the ground, wasn't reviewed on the play prior to the fumble.

This whole line of discussion is beyond silly, to try and parse which events in a football game are luck. Silly.

Now, all of that said, while Cugel is wrong about the fact the Bears could have run the clock out, as the Broncos would have had between 23-30 seconds at the conclusion of fielding the punt, the fact is that a vet running back shouldn't have gone out of bounds and given the Broncos an extra 40 seconds.
Lets call them Odd events then. We couldnt have won at least 6 games if it wasnt for some very, very fortuitous odd events.

[Jsteve01]

:coffee:
I'm curious how does saying D.J. Williams forced Barber out of bounds giving all the credit to Tebow? Instead of being sarcastic why don't you read what I actually posted.

I think everyone on the planet who watched game knows what the Bears were trying to do by handing the ball off to Barber.

If you're calling me a Tebow worshiper that's nonsense. Taking one comment that had nothing to do with Tebow and turning it into rant is uncalled for.

It's also complete bullshit that Denver winning game solely because their opponents are self destructing. Mistakes happen in just about every freakin game it how each side handles it that makes a difference.

You mentioned the Miami game and Sprano's mistake of going for two points. I guess you forgot that Prater missed two field goals in that game as well. I guess also forgot that Denver has had their fair share calls that have gone against them in this win streak. Things like pass interference calls that don't get called with a official not more that five feet away from the play. Face masking that didn't called or better yet how about a pass reception that should have been reviewed and didn't.

Finally you should get your facts straight as who is Tebow worshipper. I'm not one of them that says Tebow is the only reason been winning.

:coffee:

[rcsodak]

Am I reading this right, you are calling the fumble "luck"? So, if a QB throws an INT, it's luck? When Orton fumbles at the end of a game or throws a pick when attempting to lead a game winning drive, it's "luck" by the other team?

I guess in the same light it was "bad luck" that Barber's pass, which on replay appeared to hit the ground, wasn't reviewed on the play prior to the fumble.

This whole line of discussion is beyond silly, to try and parse which events in a football game are luck. Silly.

Now, all of that said, while Cugel is wrong about the fact the Bears could have run the clock out, as the Broncos would have had between 23-30 seconds at the conclusion of fielding the punt, the fact is that a vet running back shouldn't have gone out of bounds and given the Broncos an extra 40 seconds.
I'm not talking about an int, nor orton, T. Purely woody's last gasp play before barber takes it to the house.
Babrber isnt a fumbler. Woody isnt a TO machine. But on this GAME-SAVING PLAY........

They were already in FG range, correct?
How about lucky that their HC was a greedy moron? ;')

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[Jsteve01]

Lets call them Odd events then. We couldnt have won at least 6 games if it wasnt for some very, very fortuitous odd events.

hey clay how's about you shut your big fat yapper

[TXBRONC]

Am I reading this right, you are calling the fumble "luck"? So, if a QB throws an INT, it's luck? When Orton fumbles at the end of a game or throws a pick when attempting to lead a game winning drive, it's "luck" by the other team?

I guess in the same light it was "bad luck" that Barber's pass, which on replay appeared to hit the ground, wasn't reviewed on the play prior to the fumble.

This whole line of discussion is beyond silly, to try and parse which events in a football game are luck. Silly.

Now, all of that said, while Cugel is wrong about the fact the Bears could have run the clock out, as the Broncos would have had between 23-30 seconds at the conclusion of fielding the punt, the fact is that a vet running back shouldn't have gone out of bounds and given the Broncos an extra 40 seconds.

No. When Orton fumbled it was because of terrible blocking. If he threw an interception it was because of terrible route running by the receivers, a line the leaks like sieve or a great play by the defender.

[claymore]

hey clay how's about you shut your big fat yapper

I thought you were going to quit with post 777?

[catfish]

I'm not talking about an int, nor orton, T. Purely woody's last gasp play before barber takes it to the house.
Babrber isnt a fumbler. Woody isnt a TO machine. But on this GAME-SAVING PLAY........

They were already in FG range, correct?
How about lucky that their HC was a greedy moron? ;')

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I have stated that I don't believe in luck, but I do think it was a combination of a bad call to run outside by the coach and a huge mental error by the RB IMO probably due to exhaustion from carrying the load all day in thin air. you get tired you make mistakes. Same with the fumble, get tired, don't hold the ball right it gets knocked out

edit : quote from woodyard on strip

“He was doing what he did the whole game, stretch us front side and try to cut it back and I just dove out and I saw him running with the ball (shows the ball in one arm) and I just reached out and tried to strip it,” Woodyard said. “I think he was getting confidence in himself and believing they were going to score. In those situations, you’ve got to be smart situationally.”

http://mobile.chicagotribune.com/p.p?m=b&a=rp&id=1323016&postId=1323016&postUserId=54&sessionToken=&catId=5555&curAbsIndex=2&resultsUrl=DID%3D6%26DFCL%3D1000%26DSB%3Drank%2523 desc%26DBFQ%3DuserId%253A54%26DFC%3Dcat1%252Ccat2% 252Ccat3%26DL.w%3D%26DL.d%3D10%26DQ%3DsectionId%25 3A5555%26DPS%3D0%26DPL%3D3&pageNumber=2

[Jsteve01]

I thought you were going to quit with post 777?

I was drinking when I wrote that....can't be taken seriously

[claymore]

I was drinking when I wrote that....can't be taken seriously

Another ambien night huh?

[wayninja]

I've yet to see an answer, your highness.

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http://lmgtfy.com/?q=bears+broncos+thomas+dropped+touchdown+pass

[Jsteve01]

Dear Clay,

Im sorry for trolling your posts. I promise to turn over a new leaf.

My Name Aint Steve

[catfish]

I was drinking when I wrote that....can't be taken seriously

people take things you say seriously? ;)

[Jsteve01]

Another ambien night huh?

lol you remember that?

[claymore]

Dear Clay,

Im sorry for trolling your posts. I promise to turn over a new leaf.

My Name Aint Steve

Well you have a pretty misleading username. :rolleyes:

[TXBRONC]

I was drinking when I wrote that....can't be taken seriously

Don't be to hard on Clay he's good guy and he'll at least listen to what you've go to say.

[claymore]

lol you remember that?

Just from the post. Ive had many drunk nights on here in the past, if we gay pm'ed each other it doesnt count.

[Jsteve01]

Well you have a pretty misleading username. :rolleyes:

do you remember my username on the outsiders or had you already gone into hiding by the time Mo decided to invite me?

[TXBRONC]

Well you have a pretty misleading username. :rolleyes:

It's Jsteve Clay.

[claymore]

do you remember my username on the outsiders or had you already gone into hiding by the time Mo decided to invite me?

I remember something being funny with your name. I didnt spend to much tim eon the outsiders because Rex is a dik.

[Jsteve01]

I remember something being funny with your name. I didnt spend to much tim eon the outsiders because Rex is a dik.

genetic problem...

[Jsteve01]

My name is actually Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo. Jsteve is a username my bank gave me. When I registered at the Freak I was in a wild phase and didn't think I'd remember anything else. Kept it when I moved over here so there'd be no confusion as to just which a hole from the freak I was lol

[TXBRONC]

Lets call them Odd events then. We couldnt have won at least 6 games if it wasnt for some very, very fortuitous odd events.

They happen in every game and not all of the odd events have gone in our favor either.

[claymore]

They happen in every game and not all of the odd events have gone in our favor either.
Thats a true statement. I dont think it fully encompases our situation though.

I want to win with skill and sometimes a little luck. Not mostly luck and a little skill sprinkled in.

[jhns]

I agree tned. It is amazing how everything suddenly started working at halftime in the first SD game. The defense suddenly got better and the team suddenly became competitive. I love that some people try to pretend that it is all a coincidence.

In reality, the defense has played well all season. They were giving this team a ton of chances early. Orton was just screwing the team with horrible decisions, and his anti-clutch play. The defense and special teams are very good. Tebow is the difference between what we saw early and what we see now.

[jhns]

Alot of balls had to bounce our way for these wins. Give Tebow and the team credit for making plays when they HAD to, but luck played an equally large part in the majority of our wins.

I dont care what offense, style or throwing motion Tebow uses. He will HAVE to score points early and often in order to continue at this pace.

Unless God is working thru him.

So you think we are lucky EVERY game? One would think the pattern would tell you something. I would say they are playing great football and our coaches are teaching situational awareness better than the opponents coaches. When the ball bounces your way more times than not, there is a lot more to it than just luck. People make their own luck.

[wayninja]

Thats a true statement. I dont think it fully encompases our situation though.

I want to win with skill and sometimes a little luck. Not mostly luck and a little skill sprinkled in.

Why? You can always train and get more skilled...

[TXBRONC]

Thats a true statement. I dont think it fully encompases our situation though.

I want to win with skill and sometimes a little luck. Not mostly luck and a little skill sprinkled in.

I don't think Denver is winning with mostly luck of course I don't believe in luck.

[Jsteve01]

I don't think Denver is winning with mostly luck of course I don't believe in luck.

I give you

http://www.businessinsider.com/image/4cf32a1bcadcbb6019190000/andrew-luck.jpg

[rcsodak]

Lets call them Odd events then. We couldnt have won at least 6 games if it wasnt for some very, very fortuitous odd events.

I was at the kc game. I cant remember an nfl team having so many dropped passes. I mean ball in hands in stride and just plain dropping it.
Oak. 1st gm for palmer. Missing league leading rb. HC doesnt start best wr (champ was even surprised/glad).
SD, didnt they have like 4/5 backups on the ol? With one being signed off the street THAT WEEK? No floyd? VM tackles rb for loss on their last offensive play, leading to missed fg.
Minn...no AD. Rook qb with less than a handful of starts. No starting S's on already poor secondary.
Chi....no cutler/forte.

Awful lot of luck, which has to do with timing of schedules.

I just have a hard time believing this team has 6gm win streak with healthy rostered teams.

Last i heard, NE is healthy, with a porous pass D.

We were surprised when mcd beat them...and shanny has a winning record vs them.

Maybe Bradys hair will get in his eyes and throw some pik6's. :shrugs:

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[TXBRONC]

I give you

http://www.businessinsider.com/image/4cf32a1bcadcbb6019190000/andrew-luck.jpg

I'm not talking about the incarnate form. :tsk:

[claymore]

I was at the kc game. I cant remember an nfl team having so many dropped passes. I mean ball in hands in stride and just plain dropping it.
Oak. 1st gm for palmer. Missing league leading rb. HC doesnt start best wr (champ was even surprised/glad).
SD, didnt they have like 4/5 backups on the ol? With one being signed off the street THAT WEEK? No floyd? VM tackles rb for loss on their last offensive play, leading to missed fg.
Minn...no AD. Rook qb with less than a handful of starts. No starting S's on already poor secondary.
Chi....no cutler/forte.

Awful lot of luck, which has to do with timing of schedules.

I just have a hard time believing this team has 6gm win streak with healthy rostered teams.

Last i heard, NE is healthy, with a porous pass D.

We were surprised when mcd beat them...and shanny has a winning record vs them.

Maybe Bradys hair will get in his eyes and throw some pik6's. :shrugs:

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

I must be effin crazy because I agree with you 100%. I will add in that Palmer was on the raiders roster for like 3 days.

Im losing my mind.

[wayninja]

I will add in that Palmer was on the raiders roster for like 3 days.

Im losing my mind.

That's strange... They played Denver 3 days after playing KC??? :confused:

[claymore]

That's strange... They played Denver 3 days after playing KC??? :confused:

I was clearly exagerating. But not by a whole lot.

[wayninja]

I was clearly exagerating. But not by a whole lot.

Why though? He's been there a long while now and isn't really any better... He threw 4 picks this sunday...

Not sure his only having been there a week and a half is really reason why Denver won.

[claymore]

So you think we are lucky EVERY game? One would think the pattern would tell you something. I would say they are playing great football and our coaches are teaching situational awareness better than the opponents coaches. When the ball bounces your way more times than not, there is a lot more to it than just luck. People make their own luck.

I think the majority of the games luck was involved. If the pattern of luck, and possibly a higher power making this happen I will get behind it. As of now I am very skeptical. It reminds me of McD's 6 game win streak.

[slim]

I think the majority of the games luck was involved. If the pattern of luck, and possibly a higher power making this happen I will get behind it. As of now I am very skeptical. It reminds me of McD's 6 game win streak.

Stop being a buzz kill.

[claymore]

Why though? He's been there a long while now and isn't really any better... He threw 4 picks this sunday...

Not sure his only having been there a week and a half is really reason why Denver won.

Thats the point. He was straight off the street, midseason. No way he's going to do that good. Raiders should have cut their losses.

[claymore]

Stop being a buzz kill.

My fault. Not meaning to be negative.

[slim]

My fault. Not meaning to be negative.

No worries, handsome.

[BroncoJoe]

Get a room you two. :smh:

[Jsteve01]

Get a room you two. :smh:

thanks for the gross visuals Joe. preciate ya

[TXBRONC]

I must be effin crazy because I agree with you 100%. I will add in that Palmer was on the raiders roster for like 3 days.

Im losing my mind.

You lost all your marbles long before now Clay.

[TXBRONC]

Get a room you two. :smh:

Apparently it's been a long time since Clay has had his biscuit buttered.

[OrangeHoof]

By their very nature, miracles are implausible. They defy the statistics. The more ridiculous the odds, the more miraculous the feat. And the crazy thing is that every week seems to top the one before.

Down by 10 with under three minutes to go, one of the wiseacres on ESPN Radio said "let's see him get out of THIS one!" I could just picture someone saying that of Daniel when he took on the Lions.

That's what makes this so fun and so noteworthy. It reminds me of when 43-year-old George Blanda pulled out five straight games in 1970. It's just not supposed to happen, but it did. Kind of like when the Giants upset the Patriots in the Super Bowl a few years ago. A third-string receiver catches a bomb against the side of his helmet?? You could sense right there the Patriots would lose.

[camdisco24]

#differentweeklyexcuses

[BroncoStud]

"Who is your daddy and what does he do..."

[pikkiwoki]

My dad's a gynecologist and he looks at vaginas all day long

didigetthatright?

[Simple Jaded]

I think it's absolutely comical that people think Tebow has anything to do with the way the defense is playing, pure hyperbole. All that mythical/magical/poetic bullshit that people has been spewing about Tebow since birth has crippled some Broncos fans ability to think rationally.

If anything the defense is motivated by the fact that if they don't hold the opponents to 10-13 and/or score a defensive TD and/or put the game tying/winning FG on the opponents 15-35 yard line the Broncos have zero chance of winning.

Faith and hyperbole have obviously weakened and diluted the impact of the relevant.......

[Simple Jaded]

You do realize that a "last place schedule" is only two games different than a "first place schedule." Right?

The difference between the Chief's "first place schedule" and Broncos "last place schedule" is KC played Indy and Pitt, Broncos played Titans and Cincy.

Not a whole lot different. It's very easy to argue that KC's first place schedule is easier than the Broncos last place schedule.

It has more to do than just a 2 game difference, when and where the game is played for both teams in a given game. Like the difference between playing a prime time Sunday night game on the east coast then playing a Thursday night game at altitude and having the game in your back yard.

It's an oversimplification to say there is only a 2 opponent difference between first and last place schedule, especially when you consider the difference it's made for KC in going from last place schedule in '10 to a 1st place schedule in '11.......

[TXBRONC]

In Orton's 4 1/2 games his passer rating was 75.2 and he had 8 TD's vs. 7 INT's. In Tebow's 8 1/2 games, his passer rating is 83.9 and he has 11 TD's vs. 2 INT's.

There is no doubt the defense is playing well and a BIG part of the Broncos turn around, but the defense was also the reason we won the Cincy game, and in Ten and Oak where it was a close loss.

The point was not that Tebow is great and doing it all. I certainly have never said that in this thread or anyplace, but instead to take the position that some people are that the winning is in spite of Tebow or that he has little to do with the turn around, is the coincidental winning BS.

Ok so you haven't actually said it in post, your sending that message subliminally. ;)

[TT15Superman]

Certainly Tebow gets some credit, and I never not afforded him that. I feel I've been extremely rational about his abilities, actually.

He has changed the attitude in Denver, and there's something to say about a winning attitude.

But he will never be responsible for made field goals and idiot running backs running out of bounce or fumbling inexplicably.

actually, he might...

seeing his effort could be contagious. Players seem to be playing harder.

say what you will, but eventually, if you are a real Broncos fan, you'll be drinking the tebow FRS Koolaid. I predict it.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=lc-carpenter_tim_tebow_alex_smith_draft_broncos_12141 1

[Tned]

It has more to do than just a 2 game difference, when and where the game is played for both teams in a given game. Like the difference between playing a prime time Sunday night game on the east coast then playing a Thursday night game at altitude and having the game in your back yard.

It's an oversimplification to say there is only a 2 opponent difference between first and last place schedule, especially when you consider the difference it's made for KC in going from last place schedule in '10 to a 1st place schedule in '11.......

Link, I don't think you understand that since they went to the balanced schedule 7 or 8 years or ago there is very little difference between a first/last schedule.

Most of what you posted, makes no sense. Broncos are going to Buffalo in December, and went to Green Bay. KC plays Buffalo and Green Bay at home, for instance.

Have you even looked at the schedules, or are you making assumptions based on the way the schedules were done in the '80s and '90s, when what you say was actually true -- not anymore.

The Broncos have the 5th toughest AFC schedule based on current strength of schedule (tied for 10th in NFL), and 4th toughest strength of victory.

You and Cugel are simply wrong to try and make a case that the Broncos easy "last place schedule" had led to the record and comebacks.

If you want to make a case for luck (as some did earlier in this thread) and the fact that some of the teams they have played have been missing starting QBs/RBs, that's one thing, but to go to the "last place schedule" has zero merit.

[MOtorboat]

actually, he might...

seeing his effort could be contagious. Players seem to be playing harder.

say what you will, but eventually, if you are a real Broncos fan, you'll be drinking the tebow FRS Koolaid. I predict it.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=lc-carpenter_tim_tebow_alex_smith_draft_broncos_12141 1

Sweet...fanhood declarations if we don't believe Tebow was the reason for Marion Barber being a terrible, unsmart football player and made field goals by kickers who have been kicking clutch, long field goals well before Tebow was playing...

[BroncoJoe]

Sweet...fanhood declarations if we don't believe Tebow was the reason for Marion Barber being a terrible, unsmart football player and made field goals by kickers who have been kicking clutch, long field goals well before Tebow was playing...

While I tend to agree with you, we also can't lose sight of the fact that the Tebow lead offense got our kicker into a position where he could be successful - or at least have a chance.

Barber is a different story all together.

[TXBRONC]

Sweet...fanhood declarations if we don't believe Tebow was the reason for Marion Barber being a terrible, unsmart football player and made field goals by kickers who have been kicking clutch, long field goals well before Tebow was playing...

I don't know if the players are playing harder because of Tebow but I think they are playing harder.

One thing that can be attributed to Tebow is the improvement in the rushing attack.

[catfish]

I don't know if the players are playing harder because of Tebow but I think they are playing harder.

One thing that can be attributed to Tebow is the improvement in the rushing attack.

Tebow has even raised Mo's grumpiness level to new heights...it effects all of us

[TXBRONC]

Tebow has even raised Mo's grumpiness level to new heights...it effects all of us

Are saying it's made him grumpier? If that's the case, I disagree because he's from Missouri so he's genetically a grumpier than your average fan. Just think if he was an Eagles fan? :shocked:

[catfish]

Are saying it's made him grumpier? If that's the case, I disagree because he's from Missouri so he's genetically a grumpier than your average fan. Just think if he was an Eagles fan? :shocked:

I agree he is grumpier than average to start with but now that Tebow is involved it has raised Mo to a new level just an example of Tebow's leadership and intangibles that it has caused Mo to take his game to a new level

[wayninja]

I just wish Tebow would use his powers for larger issues. He shouldn't be using his powers to force fumbles when we have an economic crisis looming.

[catfish]

I just wish Tebow would use his powers for larger issues. He shouldn't be using his powers to force fumbles when we have an economic crisis looming.

maybe he is...just think how bad the economy WOULD be if he wasn't ;)

[TT15Superman]

Sweet...fanhood declarations if we don't believe Tebow was the reason for Marion Barber being a terrible, unsmart football player and made field goals by kickers who have been kicking clutch, long field goals well before Tebow was playing...Believe what you will, but it is PROVEN that the players are playing harder because of Tebow. Vet players (ala Champ) have come out and even SAID so.

Your opine or Champ's? Hmmmm....I think I am leaning towards Champ/Colquitt/Von Miller.

[BroncoJoe]

I just wish Tebow would use his powers for larger issues. He shouldn't be using his powers to force fumbles when we have an economic crisis looming.

Maybe he is? The price for a gallon of gas at the station near my house is $2.98.

[Ravage!!!]

Believe what you will, but it is PROVEN that the players are playing harder because of Tebow. Vet players (ala Champ) have come out and even SAID so.

Your opine or Champ's? Hmmmm....I think I am leaning towards Champ/Colquitt/Von Miller.

Its not a fact, its an opinion, no matter how much you believe it. So its not "proven" at all.

As far as Champ goes, he's a great guy. He also said that Slowik was a great DC when he was here. He said that McD was a great coach, and has complimented everyone on the coaching staff, and the team, everytime he's asked. Thats just what he does and who he is.

So although I love Champ, I take what he says as nothing more than towing the complimentary line for EVERYONE.

[wayninja]

maybe he is...just think how bad the economy WOULD be if he wasn't ;)

Yeah, but why did he wait until the fiscal 4th quarter in order to do anything? Couldn't he have done more in the first part of the year?

[catfish]

Its not a fact, its an opinion, no matter how much you believe it. So its not "proven" at all.

As far as Champ goes, he's a great guy. He also said that Slowik was a great DC when he was here. He said that McD was a great coach, and has complimented everyone on the coaching staff, and the team, everytime he's asked. Thats just what he does and who he is.

So although I love Champ, I take what he says as nothing more than towing the complimentary line for EVERYONE.

I will add on that and say the level of effort may be more because there is no QB controversy anymore hence no locker room split. It is entirely possible that the level of effort could have been raised by any clear cut #1.

[dogfish]

Ok, those of you on Twitter need to get my phrase trending.


you're not a big enough internet celebrity as it is?

:coffee:

[catfish]

Yeah, but why did he wait until the fiscal 4th quarter in order to do anything? Couldn't he have done more in the first part of the year?

Tebow works in mysterious ways:aetsch:

[Ravage!!!]

I will add on that and say the level of effort may be more because there is no QB controversy anymore hence no locker room split. It is entirely possible that the level of effort could have been raised by any clear cut #1.

Exactly. Several things come to mind. For one, he obviously can't speak for anyone else other than himself when it comes to this, so its pure speculation on his part either way.

I could then ask him "harder than what?" Meaning is he playing harder than he was for Orton? PLaying harder than he was last year? Is he playing harder because the defense is playing better and keeping the other team from scoring? When is he exactly playing "harder" in comparison too?

If he is playing harder now, shame on him and shame on everyone else if that were true.

[catfish]

Exactly. Several things come to mind. For one, he obviously can't speak for anyone else other than himself when it comes to this, so its pure speculation on his part either way.

I could then ask him "harder than what?" Meaning is he playing harder than he was for Orton? PLaying harder than he was last year? Is he playing harder because the defense is playing better and keeping the other team from scoring? When is he exactly playing "harder" in comparison too?

If he is playing harder now, shame on him and shame on everyone else if that were true.

I personally don't feel the level of effort has changed...I just think fewer turnovers has led to better field position and less pressure on the D. I don't think it is a coincidence that Denver won the 1 game where Orton didn't have a pick. Again it is all just my opinion

[Ravage!!!]

I personally don't feel the level of effort has changed...I just think fewer turnovers has led to better field position and less pressure on the D. I don't think it is a coincidence that Denver won the 1 game where Orton didn't have a pick. Again it is all just my opinion

Well, Orton won 6 in a row when the defense was allowing so few points. When ORton was the QB, we were throwing the ball a LOT more (and I'm NOT defending ORton nor his play, because I was heavily in favor of trading him off a long time ago). Orton was playing badly, no doubt about it. But we DID ask him to throw the ball 30-50 times a game, and asking Tebow to throw 15. Thats a HUGE difference, and there is a reason we are asking Tim to only throw the ball 15 times a game.

Turnovers are big, but thats not the only difference between the two in the games that are being played.

[wayninja]

I think the level of effort has changed. Or maybe it's just synergy.... hard to say, but they seem to be playing more cohesively and with more explosion. I'm not attributing it to Tebow, but I can't deny what my eyes see either.

[catfish]

Well, Orton won 6 in a row when the defense was allowing so few points. When ORton was the QB, we were throwing the ball a LOT more (and I'm NOT defending ORton nor his play, because I was heavily in favor of trading him off a long time ago). Orton was playing badly, no doubt about it. But we DID ask him to throw the ball 30-50 times a game, and asking Tebow to throw 15. Thats a HUGE difference, and there is a reason we are asking Tim to only throw the ball 15 times a game.

Turnovers are big, but thats not the only difference between the two in the games that are being played.

I'm not arguing any of those points, I think Orton just didn't match this team and the style of play that makes them succesfull. Just as I think that while Tebow matches this style of play had would be screwed on say the Pats

[Ravage!!!]

I think the level of effort has changed. Or maybe it's just synergy.... hard to say, but they seem to be playing more cohesively and with more explosion. I'm not attributing it to Tebow, but I can't deny what my eyes see either.

Well, I think anytime you are in a game, and have been winning... the team's energy level will rise. Absolutely! But I think that happened when we won 6 games in a row in '09. The team was on fire and everyone was SWARMING. The defense lit that team on fire and gamve the team hope. We were ALWAYS in the game.

Much like right now. Our team is winning. The team is feeling the excitment of what they are doing, and the defense is playing incredible football.

So yea.. I think they are definitely a bit more ramped up, but I think thats attributed to the team's success and not just playing harder because of an individual.

[Ravage!!!]

I'm not arguing any of those points, I think Orton just didn't match this team and the style of play that makes them succesfull. Just as I think that while Tebow matches this style of play had would be screwed on say the Pats

McCoy and Fox have done a fantastic job of changing things around, mid season, to fit Tebow. THats the biggest thing that strikes me. We changed everything to keep from having to have Tebow throw the football, and morphed the offense around him. Amazing job by the coaching staff. :salute:

[OrangeHoof]

I don't know if the players are playing harder because of Tebow but I think they are playing harder.

One thing that can be attributed to Tebow is the improvement in the rushing attack.

Tebow sucking for the first 3-1/2 quarters is what makes the miraculous even moreso. I think the players know that if they keep the game close, they believe Tebow will do enough to win the game so they carry that belief into the final stages of the game instead of wondering what excuses they will give teammates and reporters after it's over. They are playing to :00 and beyond EXPECTING the miracle now and it changes their attitude and level of effort.

Had he done this just one or two games, I think most would just dismiss it as a fluke but it is now seven of the last eight games and the belief has become unshakeable. You don't need to believe in God or Jesus. You just need to believe that Tebow carries some sort of supernatural blessing where great things continue to happen in spite of Tebow's limitations.

[wayninja]

Well, I think anytime you are in a game, and have been winning... the team's energy level will rise. Absolutely! But I think that happened when we won 6 games in a row in '09. The team was on fire and everyone was SWARMING. The defense lit that team on fire and gamve the team hope. We were ALWAYS in the game.

Much like right now. Our team is winning. The team is feeling the excitment of what they are doing, and the defense is playing incredible football.

So yea.. I think they are definitely a bit more ramped up, but I think thats attributed to the team's success and not just playing harder because of an individual.

A huge difference you are over looking is that we STARTED on fire in '09 and sputtered out. Here, we didn't start good at all and the sparked to life.

That may not seem like much of a difference, but it is. It tells me that the defense basically 'gave up' in '09 because they just didn't have a lot of faith and nothing was fueling the fire other than whatever they came into the season with.

The fire this year seems be getting brighter, not dimmer.

[wayninja]

McCoy and Fox have done a fantastic job of changing things around, mid season, to fit Tebow. THats the biggest thing that strikes me. We changed everything to keep from having to have Tebow throw the football, and morphed the offense around him. Amazing job by the coaching staff. :salute:

Ironically, the first 3 quarters, when we throw the ball the least, is when we've done the poorest.

[Ravage!!!]

Ironically, the first 3 quarters, when we throw the ball the least, is when we've done the poorest.

Because we've always been behind in the 4th, teams are dropping back into the prevent defense. So its not ironic that we are completing more passes against soft coverages, designed to give up the easy pass.

[Ravage!!!]

A huge difference you are over looking is that we STARTED on fire in '09 and sputtered out. Here, we didn't start good at all and the sparked to life.

That may not seem like much of a difference, but it is. It tells me that the defense basically 'gave up' in '09 because they just didn't have a lot of faith and nothing was fueling the fire other than whatever they came into the season with.

The fire this year seems be getting brighter, not dimmer.

As I said, that comes with winning games. Its the same thing as before, just inverted. The fire isn't brighter now than it was when we were winning 6 in a row with Orton. It may feel different because the new QB came in, but we aren't "playing harder" because of one player. The defense has lit the fire in this team with their outstanding play. That fire has been overshadowed by the large figure that Tebow is, but the PLAY on the field (and the wins) are attributed to our defense/special teams.

Same as it was in '09.

[Dreadnought]

Well, Orton won 6 in a row when the defense was allowing so few points. When ORton was the QB, we were throwing the ball a LOT more (and I'm NOT defending ORton nor his play, because I was heavily in favor of trading him off a long time ago). Orton was playing badly, no doubt about it. But we DID ask him to throw the ball 30-50 times a game, and asking Tebow to throw 15. Thats a HUGE difference, and there is a reason we are asking Tim to only throw the ball 15 times a game.

Turnovers are big, but thats not the only difference between the two in the games that are being played.

I'm not sure Orton wasn't just a bad fit here; I think he is a bad fit for any system and any team in professional American Tackle Football. There is no system ever devised that he could ever thrive in it as a QB. At some point they all demand clutch play, quick thinking, and stalwart leadership, and those aren't in him.

Remember the days when a 6 point deficit was almost insurmountable for us? In the Third quarter? That's what I don't miss most of all.

[wayninja]

Because we've always been behind in the 4th, teams are dropping back into the prevent defense. So its not ironic that we are completing more passes against soft coverages, designed to give up the easy pass.


6 dropped passes in the first 3 quarters. 0 dropped passes in the 4th quarter even though more were attempted.

Maybe the receivers were scared of playing a non-prevent defense?

[wayninja]

As I said, that comes with winning games. Its the same thing as before, just inverted. The fire isn't brighter now than it was when we were winning 6 in a row with Orton. It may feel different because the new QB came in, but we aren't "playing harder" because of one player. The defense has lit the fire in this team with their outstanding play. That fire has been overshadowed by the large figure that Tebow is, but the PLAY on the field (and the wins) are attributed to our defense/special teams.

Same as it was in '09.

Ok if you feel that way, but it seems like you are really struggling to find any reason not to give any credit to the QB position. Not specifically for the defensive play, but for any reason at all.

[BroncoJoe]

Evidently Ravage isn't sold yet.

[Thestrategist1]

Its funny that if it was any other QB everyone would give said QB credit but its Tebow so all other facets of the team must be the reason, dont forget there is NO FG attempt w/o Tebow there is NO TD w/o Tebow. As for the fumble that was good defensive play right there but to not give a majority of the credit to Tebow is just blasphemy.Plus all the 3qtr talk is just a joke cmon Decker,Fells and DT hold on to the ball we should have been up 10-0 but ohy well TEBOW saved this team again.

[Thestrategist1]

I'm not a Tebowner either. Probably 20% of my Tweets the last two months have been responding to Tebow fanatics giving him all the credit and pointing out he has a long way to go. My posting history on here is similar.

Today I was on the phone with a lawyer in Chicago, and we spent a few minutes talking football, and he asked me what I thought about Tebow, and I said I"m still a jury's still out guy. There are times he plays great, but he still has a long way to go. I'm not convinced he can be the Broncos long term answer at QB.

If I'm a fan boi, I have no idea what you would call the people that have been posting and Tweeting for months and months about how Tebow is the next coming of Elway, Marino, Young, Manning & Aikmen all in one.

Always amazes me why people can't have discussions without trying to insult people they disagree with. Sad, sad.

Its the way of this forum, no offense but this place sucks sometimes.

[Ravage!!!]

Ok if you feel that way, but it seems like you are really struggling to find any reason not to give any credit to the QB position. Not specifically for the defensive play, but for any reason at all.

Not at all. I've given most of the credit to our defense and special teams because THEY are the ones that have performed to extrodinary levels. Its the defense that is allowing such few points as to keep our slow offense to stay in the game, and NOT force the offense to allow Tebow to throw the ball a lot. Thats exactly what our offense does NOT want, and why we changed the offense to fit Tebow.

Its the special teams and defense that are punting the ball so fantastically, recovering onside kicks, causing fumbles in OT, and taking INTs to the house.

Our offense can't even be described as "average" atm, until the 4th quarter. Those 4th quarter comebacks woudn't be even obtainable if it weren't for our defense performing above and beyond fantastic.

Its not a struggle at all. Tebow has played great in the last 5 minutes of the games, but its the defense that has played fantastic for all 60 minutes of these games.

[Ravage!!!]

Evidently Ravage isn't sold yet.

I'm enjoying the games. I have my Tebow jersey, and scream out the "tebow tebow tebow" at the sports bars. I laugh with my friends, and joke with them about how the man above is a Bronco fan, with proof being RBs running out of bounds to give us time, and mysterious fumbles when they are already in winning FG range. I even put [Tbow] on my MW3 gamertag.

But these games don't change how I feel for the long run. We have benefitted from a LOT of luck and things going our way. Whether its getting one of the toughest teams on our schedule only getting 1 days practice after traveling across the states, RBs and QBs getting hurt just a couple weeks before we play them, getting onside kicks, forcing fumbles IN OT, INTs for TDs, kicking 59 yrd FGs, or RBs running out of bounds to give us time on the clock. These kind of happenings are FUN FUN FUN while they last... but they won't last.

So, for now, I'm just enjoying the ride on the wave. But the ride is a short ride, and it won't change my mind for the long-haul without some more substance behind it.

But that doesn't mean I'm close minded to anything, just means I'm not blinded by anything, either. :beer:

[bcbronc]

Not at all. I've given most of the credit to our defense and special teams because THEY are the ones that have performed to extrodinary levels. Its the defense that is allowing such few points as to keep our slow offense to stay in the game, and NOT force the offense to allow Tebow to throw the ball a lot. Thats exactly what our offense does NOT want, and why we changed the offense to fit Tebow.

Its the special teams and defense that are punting the ball so fantastically, recovering onside kicks, causing fumbles in OT, and taking INTs to the house.

Our offense can't even be described as "average" atm, until the 4th quarter. Those 4th quarter comebacks woudn't be even obtainable if it weren't for our defense performing above and beyond fantastic.

Its not a struggle at all. Tebow has played great in the last 5 minutes of the games, but its the defense that has played fantastic for all 60 minutes of these games.

yeah, it's funny. You don't hear nearly as much about the 4th quarter TD drive vs DET. :lol:

[broncobryce]

All I know is we were 1-4 before Tebow started. That cannot be denied. Credit the whole team as they are all stepping up. Give the QB as much credit as any. Or don't. But that is called being biased.

[wayninja]

Not at all. I've given most of the credit to our defense and special teams because THEY are the ones that have performed to extrodinary levels. Its the defense that is allowing such few points as to keep our slow offense to stay in the game, and NOT force the offense to allow Tebow to throw the ball a lot. Thats exactly what our offense does NOT want, and why we changed the offense to fit Tebow.

Its the special teams and defense that are punting the ball so fantastically, recovering onside kicks, causing fumbles in OT, and taking INTs to the house.

Our offense can't even be described as "average" atm, until the 4th quarter. Those 4th quarter comebacks woudn't be even obtainable if it weren't for our defense performing above and beyond fantastic.

Its not a struggle at all. Tebow has played great in the last 5 minutes of the games, but its the defense that has played fantastic for all 60 minutes of these games.

Special teams are causing fumbles and taking INT's to the house? :confused:

So... when the other team is limited to a low score, it's because our Defense is awesome. When we are limited to a low score, it's because our offense (and let's just cut to the chase, Tebow) sucks. That doesn't seem biased at all.

[wayninja]

yeah, it's funny. You don't hear nearly as much about the 4th quarter TD drive vs DET. :lol:

As funny as how you don't hear nearly as much about how awesome our Defense was in that game or giving up over 30 points against the Vikings. :lol:

I have no problem giving credit to all facets of the team in the wins. Apparently holdouts do.

[Shazam!]

I firmly believe if Orton was starting in Tebow's game, Denver would be headed to 4-12 again.

Tebow has singlehandedly brought a winning mentality, drive, motivation and real leadership to the Denver Broncos, something that has been sorely lacking in many years.

[camdisco24]

I firmly believe if Orton was starting in Tebow's game, Denver would be headed to 4-12 again.

Tebow has singlehandedly brought a winning mentality, drive, motivation and real leadership to the Denver Broncos, something that has been sorely lacking in many years.

I agree 100%. People often forget that there is a certain psychology involved in football. When you have a great leader, the people around you will respond. You see it in sports all the time. I don't understand why it is so hard to understand.

One person CAN make a difference on a team through leadership. After that, it is up to the people to respond. Luckily, this team has responded to Tebow as a leader and it's worked out pretty well. We can sit here all day and make excuses for WHY, but until we see otherwise, its an argument that is losing water each and every week.

[BroncoBJ]

I'm enjoying the games. I have my Tebow jersey, and scream out the "tebow tebow tebow" at the sports bars. I laugh with my friends, and joke with them about how the man above is a Bronco fan, with proof being RBs running out of bounds to give us time, and mysterious fumbles when they are already in winning FG range. I even put [Tbow] on my MW3 gamertag.

But these games don't change how I feel for the long run. We have benefitted from a LOT of luck and things going our way. Whether its getting one of the toughest teams on our schedule only getting 1 days practice after traveling across the states, RBs and QBs getting hurt just a couple weeks before we play them, getting onside kicks, forcing fumbles IN OT, INTs for TDs, kicking 59 yrd FGs, or RBs running out of bounds to give us time on the clock. These kind of happenings are FUN FUN FUN while they last... but they won't last.

So, for now, I'm just enjoying the ride on the wave. But the ride is a short ride, and it won't change my mind for the long-haul without some more substance behind it.

But that doesn't mean I'm close minded to anything, just means I'm not blinded by anything, either. :beer:

Did I read that right? You have a Tebow jersey? :lol: I would have never guessed.

But yea, time to enjoy the ride now and just hope Tebow keeps improving. :elefant:

[Canmore]

Its the way of this forum, no offense but this place sucks sometimes.

I have accounts at a number of Broncos Forums and I spend time at most of them, not all. This place far and away beats the competition. When you have to preface your comments with no offense, it's offensive. :tsk:

[bcbronc]

As funny as how you don't hear nearly as much about how awesome our Defense was in that game or giving up over 30 points against the Vikings. :lol:

Yup.


I have no problem giving credit to all facets of the team in the wins. Apparently holdouts do.

uh-huh.

[sneakers]

Ok, those of you on Twitter need to get my phrase trending. We need to do this to show the absurdity of those that continue to say:


It's a coincidence that Broncos running game went from 22nd to 1st since Tebow took over -- Coincidental Winning

It's a coincidence that Broncos defense is giving up something like 8 points less a game since Tebow took over -- Coincidental Winning

It's a coincidence that Broncos have virtually stopped turning over the ball since Tebow took over -- Coincidental Winning

It's a coincidence that Broncos have dominated time of possession since Tebow took over -- Coincidental Winning

It's a coincidence that Broncos are something like 6-22 in last 28 starts without Tebow, and 1-4 this year, but 8-3 in Tebows first 11 CAREER starts and 7-1 this year -- Coincidental Winning

So, if you post Tweets about the Broncos & Tebow, be sure to add the #CoincidentalWinning hashtag at the end to call out the hypocrisy of refusing to give Tebow credit for the turn around.

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6219/6348786566_9438bfee3c_o.jpg

[wayninja]

Yup.



uh-huh.

I nominate this for post of the year. Brilliant insight and well articulated.

[BroncoStud]

Tebow sucking for the first 3-1/2 quarters is what makes the miraculous even moreso. I think the players know that if they keep the game close, they believe Tebow will do enough to win the game so they carry that belief into the final stages of the game instead of wondering what excuses they will give teammates and reporters after it's over. They are playing to :00 and beyond EXPECTING the miracle now and it changes their attitude and level of effort.

Had he done this just one or two games, I think most would just dismiss it as a fluke but it is now seven of the last eight games and the belief has become unshakeable. You don't need to believe in God or Jesus. You just need to believe that Tebow carries some sort of supernatural blessing where great things continue to happen in spite of Tebow's limitations.

I don't think he sucks that bad in the first 3 quarters. We just don't attempt to do anything until we HAVE to. The offense is so conservative for so long that it reflects poorly on Tebow. Hard to fault him for lack of 3rd down conversions when we are running up the gut on 3rd and 9 in the 2nd quarter...

I think it's obvious we need to open it up a bit, possibly play some no-huddle or quick huddle earlier in the game, get him into a tempo. Tebow is a madman when he plays with urgency, it seems like we should open it up earlier, intelligently, not throwing the ball 50 times, but some rollouts, bootlegs, playactions, throwing on 1st down...

It isn't rocket science.

People talk about Tebow getting too much credit. Mike McCoy can stand right next to him in the overhyped line. McCoy's conservative BS is going to get us beat in a game we have no business losing.

[bcbronc]

I don't think he sucks that bad in the first 3 quarters. We just don't attempt to do anything until we HAVE to. The offense is so conservative for so long that it reflects poorly on Tebow. Hard to fault him for lack of 3rd down conversions when we are running up the gut on 3rd and 9 in the 2nd quarter...

That's Fox ball though. Play it safe, stay committed to the run, have your defense win the field position battle. So far it's been successful 7 of 8 times.


I think it's obvious we need to open it up a bit, possibly play some no-huddle or quick huddle earlier in the game, get him into a tempo. Tebow is a madman when he plays with urgency, it seems like we should open it up earlier, intelligently, not throwing the ball 50 times, but some rollouts, bootlegs, playactions, throwing on 1st down...

the other side of opening it up is increased turnovers. Vs CHI Tebow put up 40+ pass attempts for the first time this season, but he also had two turnovers including a fumble when he took too long in the pocket. That was with about 8:00 minutes to go and us down by 10. A lot of games that would have been the nail in our coffin.

It's not like Tebow is the first young QB to see this conservative strategy. People use the Big Ben comparison a lot, and this is pretty much exactly how Ben got broken in, run the ball, play good defense, win the field position battle, pull it out late.

Tebow's accuracy has become much more consistent and we're starting to see them open up the passing game a bit more. We haven't really seen any WTF?? passes out of Tebow for at least the past couple of games. He'll still miss badly from time to time, but not ten rows up badly.

We do need to get some first downs in the first three quarters. Part of that is the running game, we failed on some 3rd and short runs last Sunday. Part of that is QB/WR connections (whether missed throw or dropped ball). And part of that is play calling. But when it comes to the latter, it's important to remember that while you can't win a game in the first quarter, you can lose it.


It isn't rocket science.

People talk about Tebow getting too much credit. Mike McCoy can stand right next to him in the overhyped line. McCoy's conservative BS is going to get us beat in a game we have no business losing.

I dunno, I was riding shotgun on the McCoy is useless bandwagon at the end of last season and beginning of this one. But I do have to give the man credit, he's completely put his own ego aside for the benefit of the ball club. Does anyone think McDaniels, for example, would have as drastically revamped his offense to fit Tebow's strengths like McCoy has done? McCoy has said he knew nothing about the option when they began this run, from which I infer it's not an offense McCoy found attractive. So kudos to him for having the balls to run an offense he's never had an interest in because it best fit his QB.

As for the conservative BS, it's just what you do with a young QB who has accuracy issues. i do think the coaching staff as a whole (including John Elway) deserve credit for the way they handled Tebow. From resisting the pressure to throw him to the wolves right out of starting gates, allowing him to continue working on his game; to scaling back and then completely revamping the offense when it was apparent after the first two games Tebow wasn't ready to handle the existing playbook; to gradually expanding the passing game as he's shown he's ready.

The coaching staff is doing exactly as they should: playing to win the games first, develop Tebow second. It does mean conservative BS for an offensive gameplan, but that's the way it is with a young, developing QB and a team in the playoff race.

[TXBRONC]

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6219/6348786566_9438bfee3c_o.jpg

Sneaker your picture sucks because it's to big for me to appreciate.

[catfish]

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6219/6348786566_9438bfee3c_o.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/layloww/Funny/cat.jpg

[Ravage!!!]

Did I read that right? You have a Tebow jersey? :lol: I would have never guessed.

But yea, time to enjoy the ride now and just hope Tebow keeps improving. :elefant:

I didn't buy it, it was given to me as a joke by friends :lol:

[Ravage!!!]

Special teams are causing fumbles and taking INT's to the house? :confused:

So... when the other team is limited to a low score, it's because our Defense is awesome. When we are limited to a low score, it's because our offense (and let's just cut to the chase, Tebow) sucks. That doesn't seem biased at all.

Which is why I say "special teams AND defense." Its ok. I didn't say Tebow sucked, YOU did. You put those words in my mouth.

I'm enjoying the season and rooting for Tebow as he is a Bronco. Just because I'm not jumping all in and believing he's our "future" purely based on some great luck, doesn't mean I hate the guy. It means I don't feel that he's necessarily our future QB, because I don't think he'll ever be the passer we need in the NFL.

Doesn't mean I don't root for him, nor does it mean I'm not enjoying the fun wins.

[BroncoBJ]

I didn't buy it, it was given to me as a joke by friends :lol:

:lol: So you still wear it though and support him and cheer him on? Thats whats up. :elefant:

At least you're not like some Bronco fans that just want Tebow to fail bad so they can tell everyone they were right.


Hoping Tebow becomes the guy though. Don't want to go through another learning curve with another rookie QB. :fight:

[jwmann2]

I would agree with this post if the margin of victory were bigger. All wins have been so close. I think a lot of people are waiting for the cinderella story to end abruptly on sunday.

[Joel]

Yes, but none of that is at all relevant! The Broncos aren't going anywhere THIS season, so how many games they win THIS year isn't going to matter. They might host a playoff game but they are NOT going to be able to beat the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots on the road to go to the SB.

The only thing that matters is building for the future. And to do that they need to strengthen their player roster, gain depth and learn how to deal with adversity. A nice run of luck is great, but it's not going to continue like this next year any more than it lasted in 2009.
After posting the worst record in franchise history and starting a QB Pro Bowl players STILL call "a great fullback" I think the 8-5 Broncos could give a clinic in overcoming adversity.

On the subject of luck, mistakes and "wanting it:" The Hidden Game of Football Chapter 8: "The Joy of Sacks, and Other Mistakes." I won't quote the sections relevant to each because it would trample all over the copyright issue, but one of many classic lines does bear quoting and sums up the general idea:

Jones won the hundred-yard dash in 9.6 because the other five men in the race made the mistake of running 9.7.
Luck always plays SOME role, but it's not nearly as big as most folks make it out to be. Especially coaches and players, who often talk about "luck," "mistakes" and "wanting it" as euphemisms for "we didn't do our job in training camp and/or the weight room and/or these guys were 100X better than us to start."

When receivers drop balls, it's usually because they made the "mistake" of not wrapping their fingers around it like they've practiced hundreds of times a week for the past two (or three) decades and/or a DB "wanted" to knock it out loose. Fumbles? 99% of fumbles are due to a careless ball carrier, a ball hawking defender or (more often) both. Another 1% are just dumb luck, but that's rarely enough to change the outcome of a game, let alone a season, and the law of averages says that, yes, in the long run, luck does even out in the end.

True "luck" is nothing more or less than a cluster of statistical outliers on what remains a nicely bell shaped curve. With rare exception, good teams find ways to win games they "shouldn't" just as bad teams find ways to lose them. Football players are ulimately still human beings, so they generally make their own luck to the same great extent the rest of us do. If they're less prepared and/or talented (and a guy who spends 10 hours/week in the weight room is neither luckier NOR more talented than one who only spends 2) their only "mistake" was not doing what they're very well paid to do.