Teee-eeeeBOW. WHOOOAAOOOH!

[WARHORSE]

For me, it started when Barber went out of bounds.

Id been thinking we were probably going to lose this game.

When Barber stepped out, I said to myself, "No way thats supposed to happen."

Another unexplained circumstance, come the end of a game against Tim Tebow in which the ball bounces his way.

Im starting to think its kinda like the "Final Destination" movies.......you can escape a moment when youre supposed to die, but ultimately fate comes calling and in the end it always seems to get ya.


The plays made on the sidelines. The runs. The 59 yarder. Unreal. Then the coin toss, a drive into FG territory, then a fumble.

Couple of plays where a usually sound Chicago defense all of a sudden forgets to defend the sideline against an opponent with no timeouts and only seconds on the clock?

Just BELEIVE.

It makes things a lot easier.


TEEE-EEEE BOW. WHOOOAAAOOOH!


Unreal.:beer:

Im just happy. Just sayin. Im happy.

I want have the need to punch Merrill Hodge as hard as I can in the upper arm right about now too, and then slap him on the back of the head.:coffee:

[sneakers]

Doulble thread post = 1 is for kittens.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7153/6483652645_8bd7e61e50_o.jpg

[karnage]

Tebow had more yards than the Bears entire offense.

[WARHORSE]

Thats just inexcuseable.

The mods will clean the cats out hopefully.:D


I dont know how that happened.

hic

[Skacorica]

I admit to liking it when the NFLN does that chant.

[Shazam!]

TEEE-EEEE BOW. WHOOOAAAOOOH!

I LOL whenever the analysts on NFL Network chant this too.

[Traveler]

I LOL whenever the analysts on NFL Network chant this too.

Oh-e-oh-e-oh, TEE-BOW! Cracked up the first time I heard them co it.

[HammeredOut]

We own the best defense in the League. This is like the 01', 03', 04' New England Patriots Defense. Infact, I don't ever believe I have seen the Broncos Defense this good, the close to 3 decades I have been watching them.

I don't get why Sanchaz, and Roth didn't get the same kind of coverage, and the credit went mostly to the defenses when they were making big runs. In Denver, they forgot about the defense, and solely focused those wins on Tebow. Look at all the times Kyle Orton put up 13 points or more for Denver, and never could get any wins. It was because the defense gave up an average of 28 points a game. Nobody could have won with that type of defense. Now we have a QB who averages more Rushes then Completions, a 19% third down rate, less then 50% of passes completed, and is averaging around 8 completions a game. Im wondering what the Broncos could do with a real quarterback.

[vandammage13]

We own the best defense in the League. This is like the 01', 03', 04' New England Patriots Defense. Infact, I don't ever believe I have seen the Broncos Defense this good, the close to 3 decades I have been watching them.

I don't get why Sanchaz, and Roth didn't get the same kind of coverage, and the credit went mostly to the defenses when they were making big runs. In Denver, they forgot about the defense, and solely focused those wins on Tebow. Look at all the times Kyle Orton put up 13 points or more for Denver, and never could get any wins. It was because the defense gave up an average of 28 points a game. Nobody could have won with that type of defense. Now we have a QB who averages more Rushes then Completions, a 19% third down rate, less then 50% of passes completed, and is averaging around 8 completions a game. Im wondering what the Broncos could do with a real quarterback.

The difference between Orton and Tebow is clutch play....Orton may have been able to get that first TD to make it 10-7, but once we got the ball back Orton would have turned it over on downs for sure.

Also, part of this defensive turnaround can be attributed to the ball control offense and the fact that we are now leading the league in rushing. Controlling the clock and not turning the ball over is protecting our defense just as much as our D's good play is protecting Tebow.

Both units are complementary of eachother and are equally contributing to this run we are currently on.

[HammeredOut]

The difference between Orton and Tebow is clutch play....Orton may have been able to get that first TD to make it 10-7, but once we got the ball back Orton would have turned it over on downs for sure.

Also, part of this defensive turnaround can be attributed to the ball control offense and the fact that we are now leading the league in rushing. Controlling the clock and not turning the ball over is protecting our defense just as much as our D's good play is protecting Tebow.

Both units are complementary of eachother and are equally contributing to this run we are currently on.

A great run game, and defense has won Superbowls for years.

[wayninja]

We own the best defense in the League. This is like the 01', 03', 04' New England Patriots Defense. Infact, I don't ever believe I have seen the Broncos Defense this good, the close to 3 decades I have been watching them.

I don't get why Sanchaz, and Roth didn't get the same kind of coverage, and the credit went mostly to the defenses when they were making big runs. In Denver, they forgot about the defense, and solely focused those wins on Tebow. Look at all the times Kyle Orton put up 13 points or more for Denver, and never could get any wins. It was because the defense gave up an average of 28 points a game. Nobody could have won with that type of defense. Now we have a QB who averages more Rushes then Completions, a 19% third down rate, less then 50% of passes completed, and is averaging around 8 completions a game. Im wondering what the Broncos could do with a real quarterback.

Go 1-4 maybe? The bottom line is that you have no idea how a 'real' quarterback as you call it would have done in that situation. He may have gotten shut down in clutch time. The threat of the legs may not have opened up the defense when necessary.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The 'stats' just don't mean much here. If we were comparing two prototypical passers it might mean a lot, but we aren't. Defenses simply aren't playing Tebow the same way they'd play someone more traditional so trying to compare apples to apples just doesn't work right. The wins are proof.

[wayninja]

A great run game, and defense has won Superbowls for years.

A great run game did not help us vs. Chicago. At all. McGahee was invisible yesterday.

[HammeredOut]

Im a strong believer that if the WildCat could be figured out after just one year. The TebowCat Offense could be figured out. I don't want to spill the beans, but if you watch the Detroit game it was a ton of delayed blitzes, and Tebow was trying to figure out which side to run the ball on, at which point the front 4 was getting to him. Tebow did take a few chances and ran the ball a for 63 yards, and the run game did have 195 on the ground. But the one variance in the game, we only averaged 3.0 yards per passing play.

[wayninja]

Im a strong believer that if the WildCat could be figured out after just one year. The TebowCat Offense could be figured out. I don't want to spill the beans, but if you watch the Detroit game it was a ton of delayed blitzes, and Tebow was trying to figure out which side to run the ball on, at which point the front 4 was getting to him. Tebow did take a few chances and ran the ball a for 63 yards, and the run game did have 195 on the ground. But the one variance in the game, we only averaged 3.0 yards per passing play.

The wildcat was figured out because Ronnie Brown couldn't throw the ball. Tebow can throw. Also, we aren't running a wildcat/wildhorses.

I'm not saying we would win the detroit game if we played today, but that was his second game starting this season and we only let him throw it in Miami because we had to. It takes a bit of time to get comfortable with a team and with the passing game. That was Tebow's second start, might be a bit harsh to judge him too much on this game against a really good, high pressure defense.

Again, I'm not trying to make excuses for him, but there are some legitimately valid reasons why the performance was what it was.

[broncobryce]

Im a strong believer that if the WildCat could be figured out after just one year. The TebowCat Offense could be figured out. I don't want to spill the beans, but if you watch the Detroit game it was a ton of delayed blitzes, and Tebow was trying to figure out which side to run the ball on, at which point the front 4 was getting to him. Tebow did take a few chances and ran the ball a for 63 yards, and the run game did have 195 on the ground. But the one variance in the game, we only averaged 3.0 yards per passing play.

So you want to focus on the 1 loss? Yeah that's logical.

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[HammeredOut]

The wildcat was figured out because Ronnie Brown couldn't throw the ball. Tebow can throw. Also, we aren't running a wildcat/wildhorses.

I'm not saying we would win the detroit game if we played today, but that was his second game starting this season and we only let him throw it in Miami because we had to. It takes a bit of time to get comfortable with a team and with the passing game. That was Tebow's second start, might be a bit harsh to judge him too much on this game against a really good, high pressure defense.

Again, I'm not trying to make excuses for him, but there are some legitimately valid reasons why the performance was what it was.

You can call it what you want wildcat/wildhorses or the TebowCat Offense. When you have more rushes then completions as a QB, im not sure that we really do have a QB. If anything, we have a RB with limited passing ability. Historically back to college, he was the same type of player, a guy who could run the ball 15-20 times a game, and get 10-15 completions.

Im all for the TebowCat Offense. We are winning, and one thing that can't be replaced right now is the inspired Defense. This is a few categories for play, its either playing good, or playing inspired football. When Defenses play this way, the Offense only needs 13 points or 2 completions to win a game. Thus, is why it is the TebowCat Offense.

[broncobryce]

Here let me focus on one game. The defense played like shit against the vikings.

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[wayninja]

You can call it what you want wildcat/wildhorses or the TebowCat Offense. When you have more rushes then completions as a QB, im not sure that we really do have a QB. If anything, we have a RB with limited passing ability. Historically back to college, he was the same type of player, a guy who could run the ball 15-20 times a game, and get 10-15 completions.

And you can call a QB whatever you want. What does it matter as long as we win? Our 'limited passer' threw over 200 yards in the last 2 games. Sorry, but you are understating it. I'm not claiming Tebow is Eli Manning, but he doesn't have to be to be successful as long as his other strengths can be played to.


Im all for the TebowCat Offense. We are winning, and one thing that can't be replaced right now is the inspired Defense. This is a few categories for play, its either playing good, or playing inspired football. When Defenses play this way, the Offense only needs 13 points or 2 completions to win a game. Thus, is why it is the TebowCat Offense.

I'm not discounting the defense, but it seems to me that it's not ALL the defense. The defense has definitely been stepping up more than most, but in almost all of these games someone on every side of the ball has stepped up. The defense got carved up last week and the offense responded. This is a very 'what do we need right NOW' team. And they are are doing well when a unit has to step up.

[HammeredOut]

And you can call a QB whatever you want. What does it matter as long as we win? Our 'limited passer' threw over 200 yards in the last 2 games. Sorry, but you are understating it. I'm not claiming Tebow is Eli Manning, but he doesn't have to be to be successful as long as his other strengths can be played to.



I'm not discounting the defense, but it seems to me that it's not ALL the defense. The defense has definitely been stepping up more than most, but in almost all of these games someone on every side of the ball has stepped up. The defense got carved up last week and the offense responded. This is a very 'what do we need right NOW' team. And they are are doing well when a unit has to step up.


Sure, Tebow averages about 95 yards in the air per game for the season, So you are right, he is not an Eli Manning, he is Tim Tebow. His first 4 wins he was only completed 20 passes or so. It wasn't pretty, and his 3rd down conversion rate is really bad. Tebow is a lucky QB who has had the benefit of playing teams with injured and new QBs.

Tebow has 5 wins with 18 points or less put up on offense. I don't think it would matter if we had Jamarcus Russell throwing the ball to put up 18 points and still get the same result.

I like that we are winning, but the fact, only 18 points of total offense or less for 5 wins. This team was fortunate to play teams with new QBs like Matt Moore, I believe that was his first game of the year aswell, Carson Palmer his first game of the year and fresh of the couch, KC Cassell was injured and KO'd of the game only 2 completions to win, the Jets Mark Sanchaz did his thing put up between 13-17 points but it didn't get him the win and Sanchaz is aweful this year, only needed 9 completions to beat SD Chargers who were struggling at the time, Minnisota playing a rookie QB Ponder who had exposed Denver oddly enough this was to the credit a Tebow win, and then a back up QB in Chicago. We have had the benefit of some easy scheduling and likely the easiest in the NFL.

[wayninja]

Sure, Tebow averages about 95 yards in the air per game for the season, So you are right, he is not an Eli Manning, he is Tim Tebow.

That's BS. He's only had 1 game that he's started under 95 yards this season. Where are you getting that number from?


His first 4 wins he was only completed 20 passes or so. It wasn't pretty, and his 3rd down conversion rate is really bad. Tebow is a lucky QB who has had the benefit of playing teams with injured and new QBs.

So lucky he happens to be throwing to one of the worst WR corps in the NFL with I believe only Willis catching more than 50% of his passes according to Football Outsiders. That's a bad corp. I'm not making excuses, but you can't just look at one side of the ball and exclude all context.

Yeah, I get it, we are just lucky, blah, blah, same story of the last 5 weeks.


Tebow has 5 wins with 18 points or less put up on offense. I don't think it would matter if we had Jamarcus Russell throwing the ball to put up 18 points and still get the same result.

This same flawed argument is still flawed. We tried a typical passer and did worse. Tebow's mere presence dictates a different defensive scheme which means the outcomes cannot be predicted with this type of what if substitution.


I like that we are winning, but the fact, only 18 points of total offense or less for 5 wins. This team was fortunate to play teams with new QBs like Matt Moore, I believe that was his first game of the year aswell, Carson Palmer his first game of the year and fresh of the couch, KC Cassell was injured and KO'd of the game only 2 completions to win, the Jets Mark Sanchaz did his thing put up between 13-17 points but it didn't get him the win and Sanchaz is aweful this year, only needed 9 completions to beat SD Chargers who were struggling at the time, Minnisota playing a rookie QB Ponder who had exposed Denver oddly enough this was to the credit a Tebow win, and then a back up QB in Chicago. We have had the benefit of some easy scheduling and likely the easiest in the NFL.

I agree. Our offense needs more points. But our offense isn't only Tim Tebow. He needs to improve, but so do Receivers. The analysis is really lopsided on this. You can't ask a guy to throw it 10-20 times per game and then harp on his completion/3rd down conversion percentage when 20-30% of his throws are flat out dropped. That's just biased analysis.

[Skacorica]

Im a strong believer that if the WildCat could be figured out after just one year. The TebowCat Offense could be figured out. I don't want to spill the beans, but if you watch the Detroit game it was a ton of delayed blitzes, and Tebow was trying to figure out which side to run the ball on, at which point the front 4 was getting to him. Tebow did take a few chances and ran the ball a for 63 yards, and the run game did have 195 on the ground. But the one variance in the game, we only averaged 3.0 yards per passing play.

I love when people talk out of their a$$.

We are running a fairly old school Ron Erhardt - Ray Perkins offensive system with some added wrinkles since our QB can run the ball as well. Throw to score, run to win. There is nothing gimmicky about that, other than the fact that it changes the dynamic from 10 on 11 on some run plays to 11 on 11. It still comes down to one thing: execution.

[NightTerror218]

I love when people talk about of their a$$.

We are running a fairly old school Ron Erhardt - Ray Perkins offensive system with some added wrinkles since our QB can run the ball as well. Throw to score, run to win. There is nothing gimmicky about that, other than the fact that it changes the dynamic from 10 on 11 on some run plays to 11 on 11. It still comes down to one thing: execution.

I loved the TD pass to Thomas, Tebow ran outside pocket and the CB ran towards Tebow to stop a scramble leaving DT open and TT threw it. talk about running with eyes downfield and not tucking it and trying to plow.

[Joel]

Tebows numbers only looked bad against a good Bears D because of at least have a dozen drops, one of them an easy sure TD on a beautiful throw. For those who care about PR, that play alone would have increased it about 5 points. He had great numbers against a good Vikings D DESPITE a fair number of drops.

He's not a great passer, but he's not a bad one either, and he's getting better weekly. He's not dumb or lazy enough that he won't be mentally and physically quicker next season than he was after a rookie offseason and a handful of late starts last year, and the only thing his game's really missing now is that he takes a bit too long to get through progressions/throw away the ball on sacks and doesn't always see open receivers because he's locked in on his primary targets. That's the kind of stuff you see in nearly all young QBs, and he'll grow out of it because he has the desire, will, ability and mentoring to do so.

Meanwhile, he's still a quick powerful runner; I don't see how that's anymore a liability in him than it was in Young or Elway. Personally, I like the idea of a '40s style QB who's equally likely to get first downs with his feet or throw TD bombs; we might actually be able to keep a star running back healthy AND be a run oriented team if we don't have one guy running 40 times a game. If you come into a game against Denver knowing McGahee will run 20 times, Tebow will run 20 times and Tebow will throw 20 times, you have some challenging decisions to make on every down, especially if most of those throws are 20+ yards downfield. Do you stop the first down, or the touchdown, and which one will we pursue on any given down? We'll have to block MLBs well every time (and OLBs against 3-4s) but that was really always true, and if we do that job we'll have a very scary offense once Tebow matures and we get hime some guards and WRs worthy of the name.

[bcbronc]

Now we have a QB who averages more Rushes then Completions, a 19% third down rate, less then 50% of passes completed, and is averaging around 8 completions a game. Im wondering what the Broncos could do with a real quarterback.

don't forget leading the league in 3 and outs on offense.


Tebows numbers only looked bad against a good Bears D because of at least have a dozen drops, one of them an easy sure TD on a beautiful throw. For those who care about PR, that play alone would have increased it about 5 points. He had great numbers against a good Vikings D DESPITE a fair number of drops.


I don't agree with that description of the play. It wasn't an easy catch at all...it was behind DT's head and off his finger tips. Sure, it was catchable, but as Moose said a couple of times during the broadcast "it would have been a tough catch".

When you consider how wide open DT was on that play, it was a missed opportunity by both QB and WR. If it was any of the top 15 or so QBs in the league, I'd call it a missed throw. You simply can't miss a wide open receiver behind him...put the ball in front and let him make the adjustment. Imo the blame on that particular play goes 50-50 QB-WR (maybe a bit more to the QB), and as they get more and more reps together (and both improve their game) they'll capitalize on those opportunities.

Also felt both more than made up for it as the game went on, especially the catch by Thomas that got the team into field goal range in OT, great catch on a off-target throw.

[wayninja]

If we had a real quarterback, we probably would be 8-0 over the last 8 instead of a paltry 7-1. We suck.

Our completion percentage would be so much better if we went to corner store and picked us up a mutant Rodgers-Unitas for a 20 spot along with a 6pack of Rice/Carter/Brown/Reed/Monk/Fryar.

Our 3rd down conversion would probably be better if we had Walter Payton and O-line of the '73 dolphins... why don't we have that already?

We suck and our teacher's karate shit!

[TT15Superman]

don't forget leading the league in 3 and outs on offense.



I don't agree with that description of the play. It wasn't an easy catch at all...it was behind DT's head and off his finger tips. Sure, it was catchable, but as Moose said a couple of times during the broadcast "it would have been a tough catch".

When you consider how wide open DT was on that play, it was a missed opportunity by both QB and WR. If it was any of the top 15 or so QBs in the league, I'd call it a missed throw. You simply can't miss a wide open receiver behind him...put the ball in front and let him make the adjustment. Imo the blame on that particular play goes 50-50 QB-WR (maybe a bit more to the QB), and as they get more and more reps together (and both improve their game) they'll capitalize on those opportunities.

Also felt both more than made up for it as the game went on, especially the catch by Thomas that got the team into field goal range in OT, great catch on a off-target throw.imo, dt missed that. Either he slowed down a step or misjudged the ball. Lefties balls move right to left as opposed to righties. If you watch the ball, it bounced off his left glove moving left as he was moving right. Moral: either throw more right to left patterns or adjust for the tailing ball vs. Hook.

[Joel]

Throw to score, run to win.
That used to and still should be the rule; it changed only because the '9ers won 5 Super Bowls with dink and dunk West Coast garbage while a Passer Rating System practically designed to glorify it did just that, and people said it "proved" the West was the best. Yet isn't it an odd coincidence no one ever heard the phrase "pick six" before throwing "safe, high percentage" quick outs a dozen times a game became common? ;)

I'd love to see Tebow bring football back to the "T Renaissance," when running by commitee was the norm and primary backs ran about as often as quarterbacks who threw every bit as often. 60+% of plays are were safe, high percentage runs getting 4 YPC, reliably gaining field position and first downs, but at least a third of plays were devastating deep passes for first downs, often TDs, because teams didn't expect them and DID expect runs they stacked the line to stop. Run to establish the pass, then kill them with it. That doesn't mean only pass on third and long, but does mean play action people actually take seriously. All the while the best runners stay pretty healthy because the "vice president of the running commitee" is a quarterback who prevents them carrying the ball 40 times a game and getting the snot pounded out of them.

Passing is a risky proposition that should carry proportionately higher rewards. Short passes are (arguably) less risky but proportionately less rewarding; they trade most of passings advantages (first downs and scoring) for reduced turnover risk still far greater than running. That's only worth it if the former still exceeds the latter--but does it? Let's look at 2011 through week 13 (not counting the Rams/Seahawks game still in progress) and see:

Passing has so far yielded 6.4 YPA, a 4.3 TD%, a 34 1st% and a 2.9 Int%. Rushing has yielded 4.2 YPA, a 2.8 TD%, a 22 1st% and a 1.6 Fum%

So on any given pass, you'll get half again as many yards and are half again as likely to score or get a first down, but nearly twice as likely to lose the ball.

That's the AVERAGE pass, 5 yard quick outs to 50 yard bombs. Short passes obviously lower turnover risk--along with yardage and chances of TDs or first downs, none of which need drop much to make running optimal. Without a first down or TD it's just not worth passing more than the bare minimum necessary to keep defences honest. That doesn't mean passing's bad; the expected points are nearly twice as great as running.

It just means don't roll those dice for penny ante stakes.

[Joel]

don't forget leading the league in 3 and outs on offense.

I don't agree with that description of the play. It wasn't an easy catch at all...it was behind DT's head and off his finger tips. Sure, it was catchable, but as Moose said a couple of times during the broadcast "it would have been a tough catch".

When you consider how wide open DT was on that play, it was a missed opportunity by both QB and WR. If it was any of the top 15 or so QBs in the league, I'd call it a missed throw. You simply can't miss a wide open receiver behind him...put the ball in front and let him make the adjustment. Imo the blame on that particular play goes 50-50 QB-WR (maybe a bit more to the QB), and as they get more and more reps together (and both improve their game) they'll capitalize on those opportunities.

Also felt both more than made up for it as the game went on, especially the catch by Thomas that got the team into field goal range in OT, great catch on a off-target throw.
How on target do you want him to be on a pass 40 yards downfield? Maybe we're talking about a different pass, but the one I'm thinking of was a deep post where the ball dropped in over his head and the defenders before hitting Thomas on the fingertips--and the fingers, and the top half of the palms. Of both hands.

That is a DROP, plain and simple, bad enough he slunk back to the huddle and Tebow had to tell him to get his head up because he was going to catch the game winning TD. At least, that's how Thomas tells the story, and he was closer than anyone else to it. Close enough he should make that TD grab. ;)

[bcbronc]

How on target do you want him to be on a pass 40 yards downfield? Maybe we're talking about a different pass, but the one I'm thinking of was a deep post where the ball dropped in over his head and the defenders before hitting Thomas on the fingertips--and the fingers, and the top half of the palms. Of both hands.

That is a DROP, plain and simple, bad enough he slunk back to the huddle and Tebow had to tell him to get his head up because he was going to catch the game winning TD. At least, that's how Thomas tells the story, and he was closer than anyone else to it. Close enough he should make that TD grab. ;)

all I want is for him to be as accurate as an NFL QB needs to be. 40 yards downfield isn't that far at this level. He doesn't have to drop it on a dime, but he has to put it where his receiver has the best chance to make the adjustments.

Joel, you need to rewatch the replay. The ball doesn't touch DT's palms. Top two knuckles of the fingers at most. It was also a bit behind and over DT's back shoulder, which is a hard adjustment to make. I mean Daryl "Moose" Johnston, a more credible expert than either of us, said at least twice it would have been a "tough catch". Catchable? Yes. But it wasn't this perfect ball landing softly in DT's hands without him having to break a stride like you're making it out to be.

Every WR should expect to catch 100% of the balls they get a hand on. Of course that's not really realistic. And every football player should want to make a big play when there's an opportunity for it. DThomas is no different, it was certainly a ball he had a chance to catch. If that ball is two more feet in front of the receiver, it's an easy catch and a touchdown. And when a receiver is that wide open, the ball SHOULD be in front of him. But of course DThomas expected to make the catch and was disappointed in himself for not bringing it in. That still doesn't make it a perfect pass and I'm sure Tebow will be a bit disappointed watching the film that he didn't put the ball in front of his WR.

I'm not making excuses for DT, three drops in a game is unacceptable even if one would have been a "tough catch". And I'm not hating on Tebow, it's one throw that missed by a foot or two and his WR still was able to make a play on the ball. As I said in the previous post, both made amends before the game ended, both are playing better each week, and their chemistry is improving. I expect next time the two of them have an opportunity like that, it'll be 6.

[catfish]

all I want is for him to be as accurate as an NFL QB needs to be. 40 yards downfield isn't that far at this level. He doesn't have to drop it on a dime, but he has to put it where his receiver has the best chance to make the adjustments.

Joel, you need to rewatch the replay. The ball doesn't touch DT's palms. Top two knuckles of the fingers at most. It was also a bit behind and over DT's back shoulder, which is a hard adjustment to make. I mean Daryl "Moose" Johnston, a more credible expert than either of us, said at least twice it would have been a "tough catch". Catchable? Yes. But it wasn't this perfect ball landing softly in DT's hands without him having to break a stride like you're making it out to be.

Every WR should expect to catch 100% of the balls they get a hand on. Of course that's not really realistic. And every football player should want to make a big play when there's an opportunity for it. DThomas is no different, it was certainly a ball he had a chance to catch. If that ball is two more feet in front of the receiver, it's an easy catch and a touchdown. And when a receiver is that wide open, the ball SHOULD be in front of him. But of course DThomas expected to make the catch and was disappointed in himself for not bringing it in. That still doesn't make it a perfect pass and I'm sure Tebow will be a bit disappointed watching the film that he didn't put the ball in front of his WR.

I'm not making excuses for DT, three drops in a game is unacceptable even if one would have been a "tough catch". And I'm not hating on Tebow, it's one throw that missed by a foot or two and his WR still was able to make a play on the ball. As I said in the previous post, both made amends before the game ended, both are playing better each week, and their chemistry is improving. I expect next time the two of them have an opportunity like that, it'll be 6.

I didn't watch the game, it wasn't televisd here. However if you are talking about the pass I think you are they showed it on the aftergame analysis on NFL network and Sanders Mariuchi and Irving were ripping DT for not catching that pass. Said it was as well a thrown ball as they had ever seen and showed slow mo close up of it going thru his hands hitting his palms. I don't clain to be an expert, but those are HOF guys, if they say it is a drop I take their word for it.

Final stats at ESPN say there were 6 drops as defined by the NFL as a drop(hit reciever in stride, receiver did not need to adjust body position to catch ball,not defended by defense). I am sure there were other catchable balls that weren't caught(another of my complaints) but definately not 12 drops

edit:

article regarding DT fundamentals

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19533196?source=bb

[catfish]

"We were on the same page. I just dropped it," Thomas said. "I short-armed it. That was on me."

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19535107

I'm not suggesting he be stoned..just trying to end the argument

[slim]

I can't believe their was actually an argument about it...pure idiocy.

[vandammage13]

Im a strong believer that if the WildCat could be figured out after just one year. The TebowCat Offense could be figured out. I don't want to spill the beans, but if you watch the Detroit game it was a ton of delayed blitzes, and Tebow was trying to figure out which side to run the ball on, at which point the front 4 was getting to him. Tebow did take a few chances and ran the ball a for 63 yards, and the run game did have 195 on the ground. But the one variance in the game, we only averaged 3.0 yards per passing play.

I don't know if you noticed, but the offense the Broncos were running against Miami and Detroit is not the same offense they have been running since.

And as another poster pointed out, the wildcat is not a valid comparison considering there was never a threat of the pass coming out of that formation when the Dolphins were running it.

[catfish]

I don't know if you noticed, but the offense the Broncos were running against Miami and Detroit is not the same offense they have been running since.

And as another poster pointed out, the wildcat is not a valid comparison considering there was never a threat of the pass coming out of that formation when the Dolphins were running it.

also the last few games they have been running a fairly standard pro offense, with maybe a few(3-5) option plays a game....far from a wildcat

[vandammage13]

also the last few games they have been running a fairly standard pro offense, with maybe a few(3-5) option plays a game....far from a wildcat

Yep...bcbronc was also talking about our QB having more rushing att then pass completions...

Against the Vikes TT had 4 rushes vs 10 completions...And against the Bears he had 12 rushes vs 21 completions.

It's almost like people refuse to see that he is (or even can) get better. They base their judgements as if what he was in his first start is what he will always be his entire career.

Amusing really....

[catfish]

Yep...bcbronc was also talking about our QB having more rushing att then pass completions...

Against the Vikes TT had 4 rushes vs 10 completions...And against the Bears he had 12 rushes vs 21 completions.

It's almost like people refuse to see that he is (or even can) get better. They base their judgements as if what he was in his first start is what he will always be his entire career.

Amusing really....

It really seems the media is driving it, whether the start is bad(Tebow) or great(Newton) they write a storyline and stick with it for the rest of the year

[wayninja]

Yep...bcbronc was also talking about our QB having more rushing att then pass completions...

Against the Vikes TT had 4 rushes vs 10 completions...And against the Bears he had 12 rushes vs 21 completions.

It's almost like people refuse to see that he is (or even can) get better. They base their judgements as if what he was in his first start is what he will always be his entire career.

Amusing really....

It's not just posters here. Professional analysts are still talking about how Denver runs the 'option offense' and 'how do you defend against it'?

They still are spouting the whole "58 minutes of terrible and 2 minutes of HOF" stuff too even though that's pretty misleading. They want to throw out 'he was 3 of 16 until the 4th quarter' because that supports the argument, but they don't mention that at least 5 of those passes were flat out dropped.

The media is trying to fit Tebow into the story they want rather than what is actually happening week to week.

[Dzone]

hey check it out-ABC news & diane sawyer talking some Tebow:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quBJhSWVjaU

[wayninja]

hey check it out-ABC news & diane sawyer talking some Tebow:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quBJhSWVjaU

Cooperation? Compassion? FBS.

He needs to be a LION in the MOTHER****ING SAFARI!

[Dzone]

Damn, my acquaintances in Chicago are livid and raging with anger right now. Their hatred of Tebow is so vile that I wont even respond to their messages. They are blaming the loss on Cutler and Forte being hurt and saying they would have destroyed us with those 2 guys..blah blah blah...its ******* juvenile and I refuse to even participate in their nonsense.
Oh, and they claim that Tebow is proclaiming that God is on the Broncos side..Ya right. Geezo...hell hath no fury like a burned bears fan

[catfish]

Damn, my acquaintances in Chicago are livid and raging with anger right now. Their hatred of Tebow is so vile that I wont even respond to their messages. They are blaming the loss on Cutler and Forte being hurt and saying they would have destroyed us with those 2 guys..blah blah blah...its ******* juvenile and I refuse to even participate in their nonsense.
Oh, and they claim that Tebow is proclaiming that God is on the Broncos side..Ya right. Geezo...hell hath no fury like a burned bears fan

some jackass reporter in Chicago mis-quoted Tebow and wrote an article saying Tebow said God made the RB run out of bounds and is helping Denver win. It is causing a huge uproar

[HammeredOut]

It's not just posters here. Professional analysts are still talking about how Denver runs the 'option offense' and 'how do you defend against it'?

They still are spouting the whole "58 minutes of terrible and 2 minutes of HOF" stuff too even though that's pretty misleading. They want to throw out 'he was 3 of 16 until the 4th quarter' because that supports the argument, but they don't mention that at least 5 of those passes were flat out dropped.

The media is trying to fit Tebow into the story they want rather than what is actually happening week to week.

Here is an honest question that will never be answered in public by somebody like Elway or XD.

What could any QB drafted next season or after, ever learn from a Tim Tebow type of player. How is a rookie player to learn from Tim Tebow about how to throw in the NFL windows, and make the "reads", and "anticipate" the Recievers. TT was never that type of player in college, and nor was he ever thought of as a NFL Passer and being elite and next level, but mainly as a runner if you had to the access to some of the reports at the time, which im sure it wouldn't be hard to dig up, you know exactly what i am talking about. His Mike Alstott ability to pound the ball like Thor smashing a rock, is what I believe is 1st round ability in its own sense.

Another is, do we take the pocket passer and look for the next Marino, Brady, Manning, or Favre if we do draft another QB, or do we go with the flow and take the best Run Option QB in the draft. Maybe get some slice with the dice. Take a sub 4.5 QB and let him learn behind a Tim Tebow. Maybe instead of drafting one really high, slide Dennis Dixon of the Steelers, whom ran it as good as anyone in college back in Oregon. These are some real serious issues that should be answered. What type of players do our scouts look at right now if they don't know if TT is the future or not? Would be a great few questions to get answered.

[wayninja]

Here is an honest question that will never be answered in public by somebody like Elway or XD.

What could any QB drafted next season or after, ever learn from a Tim Tebow type of player. How is a rookie player to learn from Tim Tebow about how to throw in the NFL windows, and make the "reads", and "anticipate" the Recievers. TT was never that type of player in college, and nor was he ever thought of as a NFL Passer and being elite and next level, but mainly as a runner if you had to the access to some of the reports at the time, which im sure it wouldn't be hard to dig up, you know exactly what i am talking about. His Mike Alstott ability to pound the ball like Thor smashing a rock, is what I believe is 1st round ability in its own sense.

Another is, do we take the pocket passer and look for the next Marino, Brady, Manning, or Favre if we do draft another QB, or do we go with the flow and take the best Run Option QB in the draft. Maybe get some slice with the dice. Take a sub 4.5 QB and let him learn behind a Tim Tebow. Maybe instead of drafting one really high, slide Dennis Dixon of the Steelers, whom ran it as good as anyone in college back in Oregon. These are some real serious issues that should be answered. What type of players do our scouts look at right now if they don't know if TT is the future or not? Would be a great few questions to get answered.

Those are fair questions. For the first, I wouldn't expect Tebow, who doesn't even have a season worth of game experience under his belt to be able to pass much on to a rookie other than his attitude and work ethic (which are not unsubstantial things, btw). In a few years? Who knows. He may get to the level of a decent or dare I say it, Good pocket passer that actually things to teach. I didn't follow him in college, but I've heard that his passing numbers were fantastic. So the highlight may be his legs, but I don't think he's as unused to throwing as some people make it out. May have been a different system, but throwing for yardage is throwing for yardage. Tom Brady gets credit on a 5 yard check-down pass to Gronk when he rumbles for 20 after the catch, Tebow shouldn't be treated any differently.

For the second question, I think that's honestly where Elway's sleepless nights are starting to turn. Initially I think he was concerned because he wanted someone other than Tebow. Now that I think he's leaning toward's keeping Tebow, he's got hard choices to make in the draft. This is the biggest downside to going against the traditional grain with a guy like Tebow. I means you have to build around that system and are kind of stuck with it if you want it to flourish.

I'm all for it, personally. I hate seeing the league turn into this pass happy Rodgers/Brady/Manning copy cat system where everyone is licking Luck's nutsack.

[Skacorica]

Here is an honest question that will never be answered in public by somebody like Elway or XD.

What could any QB drafted next season or after, ever learn from a Tim Tebow type of player. How is a rookie player to learn from Tim Tebow about how to throw in the NFL windows, and make the "reads", and "anticipate" the Recievers. TT was never that type of player in college, and nor was he ever thought of as a NFL Passer and being elite and next level, but mainly as a runner if you had to the access to some of the reports at the time, which im sure it wouldn't be hard to dig up, you know exactly what i am talking about. His Mike Alstott ability to pound the ball like Thor smashing a rock, is what I believe is 1st round ability in its own sense.

Another is, do we take the pocket passer and look for the next Marino, Brady, Manning, or Favre if we do draft another QB, or do we go with the flow and take the best Run Option QB in the draft. Maybe get some slice with the dice. Take a sub 4.5 QB and let him learn behind a Tim Tebow. Maybe instead of drafting one really high, slide Dennis Dixon of the Steelers, whom ran it as good as anyone in college back in Oregon. These are some real serious issues that should be answered. What type of players do our scouts look at right now if they don't know if TT is the future or not? Would be a great few questions to get answered.

Considering very little of our offense is run option, despite your insistence in multiple threads, we would take the best backup QB available.

[Joel]

all I want is for him to be as accurate as an NFL QB needs to be. 40 yards downfield isn't that far at this level. He doesn't have to drop it on a dime, but he has to put it where his receiver has the best chance to make the adjustments.

Joel, you need to rewatch the replay. The ball doesn't touch DT's palms. Top two knuckles of the fingers at most. It was also a bit behind and over DT's back shoulder, which is a hard adjustment to make. I mean Daryl "Moose" Johnston, a more credible expert than either of us, said at least twice it would have been a "tough catch". Catchable? Yes. But it wasn't this perfect ball landing softly in DT's hands without him having to break a stride like you're making it out to be.

Every WR should expect to catch 100% of the balls they get a hand on. Of course that's not really realistic. And every football player should want to make a big play when there's an opportunity for it. DThomas is no different, it was certainly a ball he had a chance to catch. If that ball is two more feet in front of the receiver, it's an easy catch and a touchdown. And when a receiver is that wide open, the ball SHOULD be in front of him. But of course DThomas expected to make the catch and was disappointed in himself for not bringing it in. That still doesn't make it a perfect pass and I'm sure Tebow will be a bit disappointed watching the film that he didn't put the ball in front of his WR.

I'm not making excuses for DT, three drops in a game is unacceptable even if one would have been a "tough catch". And I'm not hating on Tebow, it's one throw that missed by a foot or two and his WR still was able to make a play on the ball. As I said in the previous post, both made amends before the game ended, both are playing better each week, and their chemistry is improving. I expect next time the two of them have an opportunity like that, it'll be 6.
I can't list them all, but keep hearing four Thomas drops, which is inexcusable. The easy TD pass was easily the worst, but since our eyes disagree we'll have to agree to do the same. Give Tebow those half dozen drops and his PR is up around 80, which is a good, though not great, day that looks better when you consider the defence he was playing (which I believe sacked him about half a dozen times as well.)

Another is, do we take the pocket passer and look for the next Marino, Brady, Manning, or Favre if we do draft another QB, or do we go with the flow and take the best Run Option QB in the draft. Maybe get some slice with the dice. Take a sub 4.5 QB and let him learn behind a Tim Tebow. Maybe instead of drafting one really high, slide Dennis Dixon of the Steelers, whom ran it as good as anyone in college back in Oregon. These are some real serious issues that should be answered. What type of players do our scouts look at right now if they don't know if TT is the future or not? Would be a great few questions to get answered.
This is the tricky part, and one of many reasons I wouldn't just pounce on a QB in next years draft. We're not looking for a star runner and solid passer, but a star passer and solid runner. That's what we're trying to make Tebow, and with good reason.

Trent Dilfer (who's been one of Tebows harsher critics) wrote an interesting piece along these lines for ESPN. He noted that play action fools linemen less than it does us because while we watch the QB, THEY watch the offensive line to see if it's moving forward (run) or backward (pass.) It's one of several reasons the draw is a mediocre play but the DELAY draw can gash blitzing defences for big yards up the middle right through their heart. When a QB run is as likely as a pass even when the line's pass blocking, it's one more variable for defenders to track, and the more things you make them guess the harder their job becomes. If we're running the QB a third of the time, running a back a third of the time and passing a third of the time, they're chasing all over the field, but neither our QB nor our runner is getting a constant pounding, yet our receivers are open a lot more because they have to respect the run.

For that to work, however, requires access to the whole playbook, whoever's under center. The number of QBs with the physical ability and skill set to be equally dangerous passing and running is very small, and the number available at #20 in the first round even smaller. It will take time to find a suitable backup for Tebow, and more time to develop him, but for at least the next year or two TEBOW is our coaches primary project under center. They can attend the same meetings and watch the same film, but must split a finite number of first team reps, and the more Elway, Fox and the rest focus on analyzing Tebows mechanics and reads to find ways he can improve, the less the can focus on someone else. And vice versa.

I still think the smart move would be to find an established proven vet who runs well but has already made the transition to being an equally accomplished passer, and let him backup Tebow so the leadership, experience and skills are present along with the ability when Tebow misses some games. As an added bonus, having already made the transition we seek in Tebow, he'll be able to give our starter some insights and warnings about the process. Meanwhile, we buy ourselves time to relentlessly search through current and upcoming QB prospects for the most likely candidates to groom as Tebows backup once he no longer needs a lot of mentoring. It took a year and a half to find Tebow when we already had him on the roster; I don't expect to find an adequate rookie backup any sooner, and do think it would inhibit Tebows development to split our coaches attention between two developing QBs.

[wayninja]

The easy TD pass was easily the worst, but since our eyes disagree we'll have to agree to do the same.

I've watched this over and over and while it is true the ball didn't hit DT's palms, DT also doesn't have has his arms completely outstretched (elbows are substantially bent). A fact supported by him saying he 'short armed it' afterwards. Look at the replay. It didn't hit his palms, but it could have. He simply tried to cradle it too much and didn't reach enough for it. Again, nobody is claiming it was a perfect throw, but it was good enough that it should have gotten the job done.

Worst case scenario, DT should have made the adjustment and gone low on it even if he had to go to the ground to complete it.

[Dzone]

In case someone missed the halftime Tebow discussion with Bob Costas
http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2011/12/12/tebow-wrapup-what-theyre-saying-around-the-nation/11089/

[Joel]

"We were on the same page. I just dropped it," Thomas said. "I short-armed it. That was on me."

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19535107

I'm not suggesting he be stoned..just trying to end the argument
Nice find; several other interesting notes in that article. One is the observation that Goodman and Bruton are "significant question marks" after their injuries Sunday, which, coupled with Foxs comment that he expects Dawkins to be fine after treatment, suggests the CB we activated from the PS was due to Goodman. Then there's this Fox comment:

"Here of late, we've kind of started a little bit slower," Fox said. "You don't really know how people are going to attack you. Of course, we add new things every week, and we adjust those things during the game, so some of it is we're in adjustment mode, figuring out how people are playing us."
OK, seriously, wtf? OFFENSES attack; it's their defining quailty: Why are we waiting to react to DEFENCES attacking US? I know Fox is a defensive coach, but he must learn offense is not defence or Sunday(s) will be ugly.

[bcbronc]

"We were on the same page. I just dropped it," Thomas said. "I short-armed it. That was on me."

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19535107

I'm not suggesting he be stoned..just trying to end the argument

yup, fair enough. If he short-armed it, it's 100% on DT. Damn you Moose, you led me astray for the last time! :lol:


Yep...bcbronc was also talking about our QB having more rushing att then pass completions...



I was? Could you provide a link so I can remember the context? :confused:

Joel, I actually thought the third was the worst (I only remember three blatant drops by Thomas, one really late in the first half, the bomb that would have been a TD, and late in the fourth on what would have been a 1st down when Tebow was really in a groove throwing the ball).

The first one I felt was pretty insignificant...time was running out, he needed to get out of bounds on that play and started running before catching the ball. Pretty common error, and on that play an incomplete was probably better than a catch and tackle in bounds (as I remember it).

Second, I initially viewed as a missed opportunity, but DT's comments change that. Bad drop and an important one, especially considering how our offense had been sputtering at that point. But it was first series of the 3rd quarter and only a one score game at that point, so enough time to make up for it.

The third was tough to swallow. Behind in the game, late in the fourth, Tebow in a groove and the ball hit him between the numbers. It was only 1st down, but I believe we ended up punting 3 plays later. If CHI had been able to get a first down on the next series (iirc they ran three times and punted) there's probably no miracle finish.

Still, there's positives in DT's play. He came through in OT...some young WRs would have let the drops completely take them out of the game. I also like how he owned up in the media. Not wishy washy either, just took ownership for the drop. Him and TT seem to be developing some great chemistry, and the beast mode first down DT picked up in the first half was awesome. Hopefully we'll see more of that and less hot potatoe in weeks to come.

[Joel]

I can't recall each of the specific plays, so I am essentially also taking commentators word for it that he had four drops. I noticed catfish (IIRC) dug up the NFLs stats saying we had 6, and my understanding is it was 2 on Decker and 4 on Thomas. I won't swear to either, though if memory serves Decker had a clone of his short TD pass against the Vikings but let it go through his hands.

If Thomas finishes strong the last three weeks (and he must have a big day Sunday for us to stay in that game) I'll be mollified; if he disappears and we don't see him again till Halloween I'll want a new WR.

[wayninja]

We need to be firing on all cylinders if we want to stay in the game this week. That means even a single dropped pass may very well be the difference in being able to keep up. I'd be very surprised if NE didn't score on at least 66% of their possessions. A few dropped passes/3 and outs and we are going to get buried fast.

[Joel]

We need to be firing on all cylinders if we want to stay in the game this week. That means even a single dropped pass may very well be the difference in being able to keep up. I'd be very surprised if NE didn't score on at least 66% of their possessions. A few dropped passes/3 and outs and we are going to get buried fast.
Talented young guys have stepped up with everything against us all year, and things haven't been this heavily against us since the Lions were up 40 points. Love to see Thomas (or Willis, Fells, Harris) make a statement.

[WARHORSE]

We own the best defense in the League. This is like the 01', 03', 04' New England Patriots Defense. Infact, I don't ever believe I have seen the Broncos Defense this good, the close to 3 decades I have been watching them.

I don't get why Sanchaz, and Roth didn't get the same kind of coverage, and the credit went mostly to the defenses when they were making big runs. In Denver, they forgot about the defense, and solely focused those wins on Tebow. Look at all the times Kyle Orton put up 13 points or more for Denver, and never could get any wins. It was because the defense gave up an average of 28 points a game. Nobody could have won with that type of defense. Now we have a QB who averages more Rushes then Completions, a 19% third down rate, less then 50% of passes completed, and is averaging around 8 completions a game. Im wondering what the Broncos could do with a real quarterback.


ORTON PLAYS FOR THE CHEFS HUMMEREDOUT!!!


Therefore: ORTON SUCKS!

[HammeredOut]

Talented young guys have stepped up with everything against us all year, and things haven't been this heavily against us since the Lions were up 40 points. Love to see Thomas (or Willis, Fells, Harris) make a statement.

People forget that D.Thomas was our first round draft pick, and was one of the top in the draft when taken, so having top talent around him is not a question. Also Eric Decker, is our own version of Jordon Shipley and is a real gamer. The Broncos have good recieving core, with the exception of bad TE's.

Here is the real kicker.. The 19.3 QBR for the first 3 quarters in the football game. That is a real indicator, or defense is one of the best defenses of this decade.

[catfish]

People forget that D.Thomas was our first round draft pick, and was one of the top in the draft when taken, so having top talent around him is not a question. Also Eric Decker, is our own version of Jordon Shipley and is a real gamer. The Broncos have good recieving core, with the exception of bad TE's.

Here is the real kicker.. The 19.3 QBR for the first 3 quarters in the football game. That is a real indicator, or defense is one of the best defenses of this decade.

funny because all the football expert keep referring to Denvers receivers as possibly the worst in the NFL. I personally think they have potential, but having a #2 and a #3 and no threat at TE doesn't make them good. Decker is far from a playmaker. He is a middle of the pack #2 or a top tier #3. This team does not have a single consistent playmaker on offense at any position, including Tebow. It is a young team, they are growing, it is to be expected. However inferring that this is a power packed offense that is being held back by Tebow is ridiculous.

[Skacorica]

funny because all the football expert keep referring to Denvers receivers as possibly the worst in the NFL. I personally think they have potential, but having a #2 and a #3 and no threat at TE doesn't make them good. Decker is far from a playmaker. He is a middle of the pack #2 or a top tier #3. This team does not have a single consistent playmaker on offense at any position, including Tebow. It is a young team, they are growing, it is to be expected. However inferring that this is a power packed offense that is being held back by Tebow is ridiculous.

DT post injury is not the same. He looks about 3 steps slower now than he did in college.

[catfish]

DT post injury is not the same. He looks about 3 steps slower now than he did in college.

I have said in the past, and still believe that if the team gets an established #1 WR in FA they will have an extremely effective #2 and #3 already in place. Also a dangerous pass catching TE would really make them complete. They also need a backup RB to rotate with McGahee I think the Yds/carry would go up if there wasn't so much of a drop off in RB talent from McGahee to his backup

[Dzone]

His throwing mechanics are bad in this pic. Must have been on purpose...lol...
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/malibubluff/tebowcover-1.jpg

[Joel]

His throwing mechanics are bad in this pic. Must have been on purpose...lol...
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/malibubluff/tebowcover-1.jpg
That's surely it; it couldn't have anything to do with Julius Peppers (the number 90 over his right shoulder) being a few steps behind him. ;) That looks like the rollout TD where he took off to run than slung it in the end zone right before he crossed the line.