Armstrong: "Broncos Worst Defensive Team In NFL?"

[Cugel]

Jim Armstrong has a tough piece, but it's hard to argue much:


Broncos in the Bowl? Not even close (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_11590869)
By Jim Armstrong
The Denver Post
Posted: 01/30/2009 10:42:36 AM MST
Updated: 01/30/2009 10:53:32 AM MST

Usually, I'm writing the copy from the Super Bowl, but this year I'm a reader, just like you.

And so it was that I read two stories in this morning's Post that, to say the least, caught my attention.

First, there was the piece from Mike Klis that quotes Jake Plummer as saying Mike Shanahan wasn't motivating the Broncos' players anymore. Then there was the story by Lindsay Jones in which Brandon Marshall says "it's just a matter of time" before the Broncos are in the Super Bowl.

Really? When? How? Is it written down somewhere that the Broncos will play in the Super Bowl every few years? Is it carved in stone somewhere? I know. Maybe it's up there, high atop Mount Evans, on some rock.

Or not.

With a new coach must come a new sense of reality for the Broncos and their fans. This team isn't close to being a Super Bowl contender. It isn't about a coach being able to motivate the players. It's all about not having enough players.

The Broncos are the worst defensive team in the NFL. They ranked 29th, but the teams below them — Seattle, Detroit and Kansas City — had horrendous offenses, too. They couldn't control the ball, leaving their already-shaky defenses to wilt on the field.

Not the Broncos. They had the second-ranked offense in the league. It isn't easy being No. 2 in offense and No. 29 in defense, but the Broncos pulled it off. Stuff happens when you blow draft choice after draft choice on the defensive side of the ball.

Josh McDaniels is an offensive kind of guy, but I sure hope he has a clear view of the forest. Because the Broncos' problems — and they are many — have little to do with that side of the ball. Only if or when McDaniels and his staff fix this defense should Broncos players be talking about being Super Bowl contenders.

Until then, it's all just wishful thinking.

The point isn't to attack Armstrong, so let's keep on track, here.

Is the Broncos defense REALLY the "worst in the NFL" because the offensive strength hid some of their flaws?

It's hard to argue that the defense has a lot of talent. Shanahan tried to get by with FA rejects and never-where's for years and it showed.

But, you'd like to think there's at least some guys on the defensive side of the ball who you could use and I think there are.

Bad Players or Bad Coaching, or a Combination of Both? So, Slowik's coaching certainly didn't help. But, it's tough to blame him when the talent level was so low. At best we can hope that the defensive struggles were a combination of bad or ineffective coaching and poor talent, but the possibility exists that there was NOTHING WRONG with the coaching talent, the players just sucked in reality just as badly as they looked in games!

IN short, that they really are a bunch of stiffs and rejects who will shortly be out of the NFL and NO coach can make an omelet out of such rotten eggs. :coffee:

I don't insist this is necessarily true, but we have to face the fact that it may well be true!

Denver normally managed a number of long drives in most of their games, which should have allowed the defense to catch their breath and taken some of the pressure off them. But, they never responded. Opposing teams routinely drove 5 or 6 minutes on them and scored TDs, even after the offense had provided some spark by scoring a TD.

Games where the offense struggled were simply blowouts (at KC/Patriots/Chargers) because the defense simply couldn't stop anybody (when you can't slow down the Chiefs and Raiders offense, there's not much to say). :coffee:

I don't know how you'd compare the Broncos defense with the Rams or Chiefs. The Chiefs for instance just used a top 10 pick on Glenn Dorsey, a dominating DT, but like all rookie DL he didn't make an impact. (Mario Williams is a dominant young DE right now with 26 sacks in his last 2 seasons, but everybody was talking about him as if he were a bust after his rookie year -- it takes a while). So they have some future promise, although their trade of Jared Allen doesn't look like a great deal right now. He was just the monster pass-rusher they currently need.

The Pressure On McDaniels: There might be the real problem because McDaniels is on a pretty short time-line. He has about 3 years to turn the Broncos into a SB contender --- or else the pressure on Bowlen from the fans and media to fire him will be white hot! Getting rid of the long-time SB winning coach might buy you a season or two, but not more. IF the offense struggles, and the defense appears no better there will be a LOT of booing and negativity even THIS season.

If things don't really improve by next year, it's going to be very ugly -- similar to the way things were when the Chargers were struggling and tens of thousands of fans were chanting "bring back Marty!" Except the Chargers are essentially a VERY talented team on both offense and defense and eventually got it done, winning a couple playoff games and even going to the AFC Championship.

In Denver there's certainly a long way to go. McDaniels needs to make a splash in FA this year to try and get a couple of starting DTs, some new DEs who can play in a 3-4 (if he intends to run one), at least 1 new starting LB and 2 new starting safeties.

What Do You Do With The Players You've Already Got? He also needs to see if he can get some kind of use out of BUSTS Tim Crowder and Jarvis Moss, the 1st, 3rd and extra 3rd round picks of only two years ago who've done nothing at all so far.

Then there's the question of what to do with Dumervil, his 3rd down sack specialist who has some talent, but is too small to play every down in a 4-3, and can't play as a 3-4 DE at all. Can he, Moss and Crowder make a transition to playing OLB in a 3-4? Do they have the skills?

Or should the team try and trade/cut them and take the salary cap hit this season when they have a lot of room under the cap?

If they're cut, who will replace them? We KNOW they can't do the job in a 4-3 defense, at least by the evidence so far!

Will the Offense Struggle?: Then there's the question of implementing the Patriots offensive scheme. How quickly will Cutler and the offense learn that scheme? How different are the blocking assignments for the O-line? They were great at pass-protection last season, Cutler had all kinds of time to throw, so the question arises: "will the change in offense and change in assistant coaches make the offense sluggish to start the season?"

If McDaniels struggles to get going as a head coach in the NFL, and his assistants don't have the offensive system fine-tuned to start the season this could be a very disastrous year, unless he just works wonders for the defense during the off-season.

And I would imagine that the defense is a multi-year project. They could use at least 3 or 4 first round draft picks on the front seven alone.

Will the fans and Pat Bowlen be patient enough when everybody is expecting to compete for a championship every year?

[spikerman]

I saw that article and I agree 100%. I'm not sure it isn't one of the worst defenses in NFL history. I actually found myself surprised if the other team didn't score a touchdown on a drive. I was actually just rooting for field goals. I have never, in almost 40 years of watching football, seen a defense that helpless to stop anything the other offense was doing.

[Cugel]

I saw that article and I agree 100%. I'm not sure it isn't one of the worst defenses in NFL history. I actually found myself surprised if the other team didn't score a touchdown on a drive. I was actually just rooting for field goals. I have never, in almost 40 years of watching football, seen a defense that helpless to stop anything the other offense was doing.

Well, the defense also has 2 pretty decent players in DJ Williams and Champ, and both were injured this year and severely limited when the DID appear.

So, the lack of depth on defense made a pretty poor defense a lot worse when their best players were lost to injury.

The pass-defense suffered as well from a lack of decent safeties, exposing Bly and Paymah to single-coverage on bigger WRs. That often resulted in big plays.

The complete lack of a pass-rush also combined to make 2008 a long year.

[TXBRONC]

I don't if think that many 1st round picks will have to be added to the defense but it sure will take some mighty good scouting to find players with ability.

[WARHORSE]

Yes, the Broncos had the worst defense.

But that does not mean we are lost next season.

As for defensive draft blunders, Id like to know who the Broncos were supposed to pick at 17 during the 2007 draft besides Moss.

If you say Reggie Nelson, the Id have to tell you to eat yer shorts. We needed Dlinemen in the worst way, and there simply was no one better looking in anyones eyes other than Moss.


Moss is not done imo. He needs to get stronger.

Not saying hes the next Strahan, but Strahan only had a single stat his first year: one sack. No tackles. No assists. Only one sack. His next year, he had 4.5 sacks, but barely two tackles a game. Third season, 7.5 sacks, two Ints, and 60 tackles. Fourth season, 5 sacks, 63 tackles. His fifth season was when he kicked it into gear but good, he had 14 sacks. Thats year five for Strahan for some real output.

Moss has good hand technique. His first two years are one, injured. Two, overcoming the injury, and basically a rookie year.

I really think Moss still has some tremendous upside personally. Im definitely on the Jarvis Moss band wagon, and I'll stay there for at least two, three more years, unless he really deteriorates.

I dont think we had the right personel training the man. Lets see what happens this year.

[spikerman]

Yes, the Broncos had the worst defense.

But that does not mean we are lost next season.

As for defensive draft blunders, Id like to know who the Broncos were supposed to pick at 17 during the 2007 draft besides Moss.

If you say Reggie Nelson, the Id have to tell you to eat yer shorts. We needed Dlinemen in the worst way, and there simply was no one better looking in anyones eyes other than Moss.


Moss is not done imo. He needs to get stronger.

Not saying hes the next Strahan, but Strahan only had a single stat his first year: one sack. No tackles. No assists. Only one sack. His next year, he had 4.5 sacks, but barely two tackles a game. Third season, 7.5 sacks, two Ints, and 60 tackles. Fourth season, 5 sacks, 63 tackles. His fifth season was when he kicked it into gear but good, he had 14 sacks. Thats year five for Strahan for some real output.

Moss has good hand technique. His first two years are one, injured. Two, overcoming the injury, and basically a rookie year.

I really think Moss still has some tremendous upside personally. Im definitely on the Jarvis Moss band wagon, and I'll stay there for at least two, three more years, unless he really deteriorates.

I dont think we had the right personel training the man. Lets see what happens this year.
I have to admit that I'm not optimistic. I started looking for a way off of the JM bandwagon when I found out that Jay Cutler out benched him at the combine.

[topscribe]

Yes, the Broncos had the worst defense.

But that does not mean we are lost next season.

As for defensive draft blunders, Id like to know who the Broncos were supposed to pick at 17 during the 2007 draft besides Moss.

If you say Reggie Nelson, the Id have to tell you to eat yer shorts. We needed Dlinemen in the worst way, and there simply was no one better looking in anyones eyes other than Moss.


Moss is not done imo. He needs to get stronger.

Not saying hes the next Strahan, but Strahan only had a single stat his first year: one sack. No tackles. No assists. Only one sack. His next year, he had 4.5 sacks, but barely two tackles a game. Third season, 7.5 sacks, two Ints, and 60 tackles. Fourth season, 5 sacks, 63 tackles. His fifth season was when he kicked it into gear but good, he had 14 sacks. Thats year five for Strahan for some real output.

Moss has good hand technique. His first two years are one, injured. Two, overcoming the injury, and basically a rookie year.

I really think Moss still has some tremendous upside personally. Im definitely on the Jarvis Moss band wagon, and I'll stay there for at least two, three more years, unless he really deteriorates.

I dont think we had the right personel training the man. Lets see what happens this year.

We have yet to see a healthy Moss. Besides the injury, he was coming off a
severe staff infection that just waylaid him physically. Before I write him off,
I want to see what he can do when healthy, in shape, at his normal 265.

-----

[spikerman]

We have yet to see a healthy Moss. Besides the injury, he was coming off a
severe staff infection that just waylaid him physically. Before I write him off,
I want to see what he can do when healthy, in shape, at his normal 265.

-----It would be great to see him succeed, but like i said before, I'm not optimistic. It's hard to have a lot of faith in a former first round pick who had only slightly more playing time than I did last year.

[topscribe]

It would be great to see him succeed, but like i said before, I'm not optimistic. It's hard to have a lot of faith in a former first round pick who had only slightly more playing time than I did last year.

I'm glad there are those in football who understand injuries and illnesses . . .

-----

[spikerman]

I'm glad there are those in football who understand injuries and illnesses . . .

-----
I understand those things, but not being able to stay on the field says something about him too. What was his injury last year? I remember the broken leg from the year before, but maybe I'm forgetting - what his problem was last year?

[Cugel]

Yes, the Broncos had the worst defense.

But that does not mean we are lost next season.

As for defensive draft blunders, Id like to know who the Broncos were supposed to pick at 17 during the 2007 draft besides Moss.

If you say Reggie Nelson, the Id have to tell you to eat yer shorts. We needed Dlinemen in the worst way, and there simply was no one better looking in anyones eyes other than Moss.

Moss is not done imo. He needs to get stronger.

Not saying hes the next Strahan, but Strahan only had a single stat his first year: one sack. No tackles. No assists. Only one sack. His next year, he had 4.5 sacks, but barely two tackles a game. Third season, 7.5 sacks, two Ints, and 60 tackles. Fourth season, 5 sacks, 63 tackles. His fifth season was when he kicked it into gear but good, he had 14 sacks. Thats year five for Strahan for some real output.

Moss has good hand technique. His first two years are one, injured. Two, overcoming the injury, and basically a rookie year.

I really think Moss still has some tremendous upside personally. Im definitely on the Jarvis Moss band wagon, and I'll stay there for at least two, three more years, unless he really deteriorates.

I dont think we had the right personel training the man. Lets see what happens this year.

Moss: I'd love to believe that Moss is just a season away from blooming as a DE. Ater all I cheered his drafting (finally, a DE!). But I just don't. :coffee:

He's too light to play every down in a 4-3 and the Broncos already have a better pass-rush specialist in Dumervil ahead of Moss.

Now that the team is switching to the 3-4 Moss would have to learn a new position -- OLB in the 3-4 because he sure as hell isn't a 3-4 DE! Those guys are 290 lbs., not 265, let alone 245-50 like Moss was last season.

Can he transition to 3-4 OLB? Who the hell knows at this point? Can Dumervil? :confused:

Moving to a 3-4?: If the Broncos play some sort of "hybrid" defense will either Moss or Dumervil be able to start?

It's easy to talk about Michael Strahan struggling his first 4 years, but he at least PLAYED! Neither Moss nor Crowder were even on the field.

So far the Broncos have paid Moss $5 million for 2 seasons, not including his signing bonus, and he's done exactly NOTHING to justify that money.

And what about Tim Crowder? Do we simply write him off? He at least has had no excuses about injury or illness. He's simply be inactive on game day because he sucked!

And, you have to suck pretty bad to be unable even to take the field for one of the worst defenses in recent NFL history. :coffee:

[Cugel]

As for who the Broncos could have picked instead of Moss? THERE WERE LOTS OF GUYS!

MLB - Jon Beason -- #25 Carolina. He had 138 tackles & 8 passes defended this year for the tough Carolina defense. He started immediately and has played well.

OT Joe Staley -- #28 who would have wound up moving over to RT after the Broncos took Clady, but who has started 2 seasons for the 49ers.

MLB Paul Posluszny who went to the Bills with the second pick of the 2nd round. He had 110 tackles, 6 passes defended, 1 Int for the Bills in his 2nd year. He'd be a damn sight better in Denver's defense right now than Nate Webster!

Denver could have tried to trade DOWN out of #22 instead of UP to #17 by giving up a 3rd round draft pick! They only did this out of panic when DT Justin Harrell was taken by the Packers, leaving only Moss on their board.

But, there were certainly questions about Moss, and he wasn't that great of a prospect. SO, trading up to get him was a terrible blunder!

If they were stuck at #22 they could have taken Beason, Staley or Poslusny none of whom would have been that great of a reach. Moss might even have still been there (unfortunately), but at least they wouldn't have wasted a 3rd round pick as well!

So, the answer to your question is DON'T TRADE UP TO GET MOSS! Stay put and take the best player available at #22 and keep your third round pick.

BTW, the 21st pick of the 3rd round? DT Brandon Mebane, who started all 16 games last year for the Seahawks and would have been a decent addition, probably better a better pick than Marcus Thomas.

There are LOTs of other scenarios, not too far fetched.

All in all, an additional 3rd round pick would have been great, as long as they didn't waste a 2nd rounder on Tim Crowder.

[G_Money]

Yes, the Broncos had the worst defense.

But that does not mean we are lost next season.

As for defensive draft blunders, Id like to know who the Broncos were supposed to pick at 17 during the 2007 draft besides Moss.

If you say Reggie Nelson, the Id have to tell you to eat yer shorts. We needed Dlinemen in the worst way, and there simply was no one better looking in anyones eyes other than Moss.


Moss is not done imo. He needs to get stronger.

Not saying hes the next Strahan, but Strahan only had a single stat his first year: one sack. No tackles. No assists. Only one sack. His next year, he had 4.5 sacks, but barely two tackles a game. Third season, 7.5 sacks, two Ints, and 60 tackles. Fourth season, 5 sacks, 63 tackles. His fifth season was when he kicked it into gear but good, he had 14 sacks. Thats year five for Strahan for some real output.

Moss has good hand technique. His first two years are one, injured. Two, overcoming the injury, and basically a rookie year.

I really think Moss still has some tremendous upside personally. Im definitely on the Jarvis Moss band wagon, and I'll stay there for at least two, three more years, unless he really deteriorates.

I dont think we had the right personel training the man. Lets see what happens this year.

We couldn't have gotten Reggie Nelson at 17. That's who J-Ville wanted in the first place, and they felt like they could still get him after dropping a few places because none of the intervening teams were looking that way.

If they thought we were moving up to draft Nelson they would have just stayed there and drafted Reggie at 17.

I wanted Jon Beason at 21, not 17, because it was our original draft slot and we would have kept the 3rd rounder too. And we needed a replacement for Al Wilson. I still think that would have been the right move. You don't reach in the first for a raw pass-rushing specialist who's too light to defend the run. It limits your options. Hopefully we don't do it this year either.

Moss's contract is up after 2 more years, so whether you're on his bandwagon or not he'll likely HAVE to have made great use of whatever upside he has in order for your bandwagon not to have to watch him play for another org.

~G

[G_Money]

We have yet to see a healthy Moss. Besides the injury, he was coming off a
severe staff infection that just waylaid him physically. Before I write him off,
I want to see what he can do when healthy, in shape, at his normal 265.

-----

top...he's FOUR YEARS removed from the staff infection. Spring of 05 is when they diagnosed and treated it. If he's not healthy now, when exactly can we expect him to be healthy, and who cleared him medically to be our #1 draftpick?

~G

[LRtagger]

Well, the defense also has 2 pretty decent players in DJ Williams and Champ, and both were injured this year and severely limited when the DID appear.

So, the lack of depth on defense made a pretty poor defense a lot worse when their best players were lost to injury.



Actually, the defense played exponentially better when the starters were injured. I would say the best games of the year were with Larsen, Woodyard, Bell, and Winborn on the field.

[topscribe]

top...he's FOUR YEARS removed from the staff infection. Spring of 05 is when they diagnosed and treated it. If he's not healthy now, when exactly can we expect him to be healthy, and who cleared him medically to be our #1 draftpick?

~G

I don't know where you got that information, but I was reading just this last
year that he was just recovering from staff infection. That is a very deadly
infection that has been fatal. It can persist with relapse after relapse and can
leave the body so weak that it takes a prolonged time just to rebuild its
former strength. So when he was first treated for it is a minor consideration.
When was he last treated for it and how long did he have it? That would be
more telling. The fact that he reported to camp last year 20 pounds under
his normal playing weight is very telling.

-----

[spikerman]

I don't know where you got that information, but I was reading just this last
year that he was just recovering from staff infection. That is a very deadly
infection that has been fatal. It can persist with relapse after relapse and can
leave the body so weak that it takes a prolonged time just to rebuild its
former strength. So when he was first treated for it is a minor consideration.
When was he last treated for it and how long did he have it? That would be
more telling. The fact that he reported to camp last year 20 pounds under
his normal playing weight is very telling.

-----

Top, I just did a quick check and it looks like his staph infection was in 2005.

[honz]

We have yet to see a healthy Moss. Besides the injury, he was coming off a
severe staff infection that just waylaid him physically. Before I write him off,
I want to see what he can do when healthy, in shape, at his normal 265.

-----

I think that moving to the 3-4 could potentially benefit Moss more than any other player. We can move him to OLB and just let him use his speed and athleticism to go after the QB, which is what he does best. He'll have to adjust and learn the position, but I just think that his skill set is better suited as a pass rushing OLB. We shall see though.

[Simple Jaded]

The Broncos defense sucked because of talent AND coaching.

I'm not going to go into Slowik, he's not worth the effort, but as far as players go Denver has three, maybe four, players on defense that should be starting on a SB contending defense.......Champ Bailey, DJ Williams, Dre Bly and MAYBE Marcus Thomas.

The rest of the players on defense were/are so bad that when players like Woodyard and Winborn make an impact in a game, fans get fooled into thinking they're worth a shit because the overall level of play makes a solid play stand out.

I've been watching the Denver Broncos for 20-some years, I don't ever remember a defense this bad, it's pathetic on a historic level. This defense is 3-4 years of mistake free personnel moves away from being taken seriously as a SB contender, 2 if Denver takes free agency by the balls.......by which time Jay Cutler will already have been strung up by his Nutsack by Broncos fans.......

[spikerman]

Since we were talking about Moss, I read up on him a little bit. One thing that concerns me about a potential move to OLB is that he did not participate in the agility drills at the combine. I hope that it was because of an injury and not because he was worried about hurting his draft stock. As an OLB in a 3-4 he would need to be agile since he would occasionally be called upon to do something other than rush the passer.

[Simple Jaded]

Since we were talking about Moss, I read up on him a little bit. One thing that concerns me about a potential move to OLB is that he did not participate in the agility drills at the combine. I hope that it was because of an injury and not because he was worried about hurting his draft stock. As an OLB in a 3-4 he would need to be agile since he would occasionally be called upon to do something other than rush the passer.
http://www.athlonsports.com/pro-football/10598/nfl-scouting-combine-defense

According to Athlon Sport he did take part in LB drills though, Nathan Rush had this to say:

"Another blue chip athlete on the edge is Florida’s Jarvis Moss, who was the tallest end at over 6’6" but one of the lightest at a lean 250 pounds. Moss ran a 4.70 in the 40 and had a 10’ broad jump. But the most impressive aspect of Moss’ workout was his fluidity in simulated pass rush drills and linebacker drills, which called for quick change of direction. Moss showed enough raw ability to be praised as a poor man’s Jevon Kearse."

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft07/insider/columns/story?columnist=mcshay_todd&id=2791628&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab4pos2

He did as well on Florida's Pro Day, Todd McShay had this to say about Moss:

"Also impressive is the ever-growing pipeline of Florida defensive linemen to the NFL. DE Jarvis Moss is a mid-to-late first-round talent, who ran both of his 40-yard dash attempts in the 4.7-second range. At 250 pounds, Moss also showed good fluidity during linebacker drills, which bodes well for teams looking at him as a rush-linebacker in a 3-4 scheme."

Fwiw.......

[spikerman]

http://www.athlonsports.com/pro-football/10598/nfl-scouting-combine-defense

According to Athlon Sport he did take part in LB drills though, Nathan Rush had this to say:

"Another blue chip athlete on the edge is Florida’s Jarvis Moss, who was the tallest end at over 6’6" but one of the lightest at a lean 250 pounds. Moss ran a 4.70 in the 40 and had a 10’ broad jump. But the most impressive aspect of Moss’ workout was his fluidity in simulated pass rush drills and linebacker drills, which called for quick change of direction. Moss showed enough raw ability to be praised as a poor man’s Jevon Kearse."

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft07/insider/columns/story?columnist=mcshay_todd&id=2791628&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab4pos2

He did as well on Florida's Pro Day, Todd McShay had this to say about Moss:

"Also impressive is the ever-growing pipeline of Florida defensive linemen to the NFL. DE Jarvis Moss is a mid-to-late first-round talent, who ran both of his 40-yard dash attempts in the 4.7-second range. At 250 pounds, Moss also showed good fluidity during linebacker drills, which bodes well for teams looking at him as a rush-linebacker in a 3-4 scheme."

Fwiw.......That's great! I hadn't seen that before. Thanks for the info.

[Broncos Mtnman]

Actually, the defense played exponentially better when the starters were injured. I would say the best games of the year were with Larsen, Woodyard, Bell, and Winborn on the field.

QFT :2thumbs:

[topscribe]

Top, I just did a quick check and it looks like his staph infection was in 2005.

That is correct. That is what I said. That is when it began. It is not when it
ended. As I said, his complete recovery from the illness was just this past
year. Yet he reported to camp at 245 and never did regain his playing weight.
This is what he is doing this offseason: building to his target of 265.

If he attains that, we just may see an entirely different Jarvis Moss.

Stay tuned . . .

-----

[spikerman]

That is correct. That is what I said. That is when it began. It is not when it
ended. As I said, his complete recovery from the illness was just this past
year. Yet he reported to camp at 245 and never did regain his playing weight.
This is what he is doing this offseason: building to his target of 265.

-----I didn't see anything where the staph was still affecting him. If I missed it, that's my mistake. However, even 265 lbs for a player who has extremely weak (by NFL standards) upper body strength is not going get the job done IMO. Like another poster mentioned on here, if Moss was in that bad of shape due to the infection, the Broncos' scouting staff let the team down. To this point I think it's pretty clear that he was not worth trading up for.

[Cugel]

The question with Moss is whether he can learn the OLB position.

THe bigger question is whether the Broncos will play a 3-4 at all this year.

McDaniels has already said they'll try a "hybrid." I don't know what that means exactly, but to play in a 3-4 you need a quality NT and they don't have one.

If they draft one, he'll take a few years to become a quality starter, so they need to BOTH draft a NT for the future, and find a quality NT in FA.

Neither of these things will be easy because LOTs of teams are now moving to the 3-4 at the same time and the demand for elite NTs just went through the roof.

A couple of years ago, the Ravens got Haloti Ngata at #12, and Broderick Bunkley fell even further. This year the Broncos would be lucky at #12 to get a shot at Raji and he's likely to be a top 10 pick. If he does well in the combine, he could even move up to around 5 or 6.

I have no idea what the Broncos will do, but they could just try and find a one dimensional NT in the 2nd or 3rd round. These guys will never be a threat to rush the passer, so the key ingredient of getting pressure up the middle will be lost, but at least they can stand up blockers.

We need a HUGE guy around 345 lbs. who has the strength of Hercules and can consistently take on 2 blockers and hold his ground -- like Jamal Williams, but without Williams' ability to collapse the pocket.

Whether they will be able to find a couple of FAs like this is an open question.

If so, then they can play in a 3-4 and try Moss at OLB. He can't do worse there than he did at 4-3 DE, so it's a potential new lease on life for him. Same thing for Crowder, but he'd better impress the new coaches right away or he'll be cut just as ignominiously as LB Terry Pierce was when THAT 2nd round pick proved to be a total and complete bust. :coffee:

But, if the Broncos stay in a 4-3 it's GOODBYE Moss & Crowder!

They are worse than inadequate as 4-3 DEs. You don't go from sitting on the bench behind John Engleberger and Ebeneezer Ekuban and not even suiting up for games when your defense is the worst in the NFL, to suddenly being a star.

Probably more time has been wasted worrying about trying to get something out of Moss & Crowder than they're worth.

Personally TOP, I'd love to see something come out of Moss & Crowder to salvage those picks, but it probably will never happen. 1st round busts happen all the time in the NFL and drafting isn't an exact science.

It's just too bad that they totally blew their first 3 picks of 2007 (Moss, Crowder & the 3rd round pick they used to move up 4 places) for two players who suck. And even worse, this happened at a time when the Broncos defense DESPERATELY needed to get 3 or 4 really good players.

Moss, Crowder and Thomas, more than any other single factor doomed Mike Shanahan. He was on thin ice and that pathetic drafting failure doomed the defense and cost him his job.

If those guys had become good young players like Cutler, Sheffler, Marshall, Harris, Clady & Royal on offense, the team would have won a game or two more this year, maybe even a playoff game (well probably not against the Colts, but possibly) and Shanahan might have kept his job for another year.

[topscribe]

I didn't see anything where the staph was still affecting him. If I missed it, that's my mistake. However, even 265 lbs for a player who has extremely weak (by NFL standards) upper body strength is not going get the job done IMO. Like another poster mentioned on here, if Moss was in that bad of shape due to the infection, the Broncos' scouting staff let the team down. To this point I think it's pretty clear that he was not worth trading up for.

It's probably just a tad late to contemplate whether Moss is worth trading up for.

But I do not think it is a very good practice to evaluate what a player could do when healthy by what he does when ill.

Anyway, let's scout the respective starting weights of some of the DEs around the league:

Bryan Copeland, Buffalo 243
Dwight Freeney, Indianapolis 263
Reggie Hayward, Jacksonville 267
Kyle Vanden, Bosch Tennessee 267
Javon Kearse, Tennessee 258
Tamba Hali, Kansas City 263
Derrick Burgess, Oakland 266
Mathais Kiwanuka, NYG 266
Justin Tuck, NYG 268
Trent Cole, Philadelphia 258
Juqua Parker, Philadelpia 250
Andre Carter, Washington 267
Jason Taylor, Washington 257
Jared Allen, Minnesota 268
John Abraham, Atlanta 263
Will Smith, New Orleans 268
Bobby McGray, New Orleans 263
Gaines Adams, Tampa Bay 258
Bertrand Berry, Cardinals 248
Leonard Little, Rams 258
Justin Smith, San Francisco 268
Daryl Tapp, Seattle 258

Looks like the whole league is weak . . . :coffee:

-----

[Cugel]

You know TOP, let's presume for a minute that Moss gains some size & strength this off-season. Where do they play him?

He might be in the size & weight range of a 4-3 DE if he gains some weight, but he's NOTHING like the size of a 3-4 DE and can't possibly play that spot.

So, he's got to learn a new position at 3-4 OLB and won't have a lot of time to do so before the new coaches give up on him.

Crowder is on even thinner ice.

If the team stays in the 4-3 he's stuck behind Dumervil, because he sure as hell can't play LDE which requires a lot of strength (probably the best Broncos LDE of the last 10 years was Courtney Brown -- the one year he was reasonably healthy was 2005). Well, neither Dumervil, Moss nor Crowder has the strength to hold up at 4-3 LDE.

Shanahan is gone and McDaniels doesn't have anything invested in Moss/Crowder/Dumervil or Thomas. He can just say "good riddance to bad trash" if he chooses and bring in all new players.

He might very well decide to do just that, concluding that the talent level of the Broncos front 7 personnel just isn't good enough to compete.

This happens sometimes to players. The get injured, get healthy, suddenly find themselves with a new coach who doesn't like them for whatever reason, and suddenly they're out of the league. Even very highly drafted players have this happen. I've heard some NFL Players say that it's partly dependent on LUCK -- being on the right team at the right time and having a coach take a chance on you, staying healthy enough to be good, etc. (I think of Eddie McCaffrey whose career was revitalized by coming to Denver).

It's kind of sad really. I remember seeing a video of David Terrell (former Bears #8 pick) when he started out his second try-out with the Broncos. He seemed like a decent enough guy and said all the right things, but nothing happened. Sometimes it just doesn't work out for these guys.

[topscribe]

You know TOP, let's presume for a minute that Moss gains some size & strength this off-season. Where do they play him?

He might be in the size & weight range of a 4-3 DE if he gains some weight, but he's NOTHING like the size of a 3-4 DE and can't possibly play that spot.

So, he's got to learn a new position at 3-4 OLB and won't have a lot of time to do so before the new coaches give up on him.

Crowder is on even thinner ice.

If the team stays in the 4-3 he's stuck behind Dumervil, because he sure as hell can't play LDE which requires a lot of strength (probably the best Broncos LDE of the last 10 years was Courtney Brown -- the one year he was reasonably healthy was 2005). Well, neither Dumervil, Moss nor Crowder has the strength to hold up at 4-3 LDE.

Shanahan is gone and McDaniels doesn't have anything invested in Moss/Crowder/Dumervil or Thomas. He can just say "good riddance to bad trash" if he chooses and bring in all new players.

He might very well decide to do just that, concluding that the talent level of the Broncos front 7 personnel just isn't good enough to compete.

This happens sometimes to players. The get injured, get healthy, suddenly find themselves with a new coach who doesn't like them for whatever reason, and suddenly they're out of the league. Even very highly drafted players have this happen.

It's kind of sad really. I remember seeing a video of David Terrell (former Bears #8 pick) when he started out his second try-out with the Broncos. He seemed like a decent enough guy and said all the right things, but nothing happened. Sometimes it just doesn't work out for these guys.

You are going on maybe's and could be's. That's all you have, and that's all I
have. The only difference is that I'm not willing to throw the guy under the
bus until he has had a fair chance, which he has not yet had.

But go back and look at my previous posts. Some of those DEs are playing on
a 3-4 defense. I'm amazed how some people will look at a player's size and
consign them in their minds to the scrap heap. I guess then, Tom Jackson,
for instance, never should have played for the Broncos, and Wiegmann does
not belong on the team, much less in the Pro Bowl.

I'm not willing to sit here and speculate on what Moss is not going to be able
to do. I just want to see what he can do, healthy and at his normal weight.

-----

[spikerman]

It's probably just a tad late to contemplate whether Moss is worth trading up for.

But I do not think it is a very good practice to evaluate what a player could do when healthy by what he does when ill.

Anyway, let's scout the respective starting weights of some of the DEs around the league:

Bryan Copeland, Buffalo 243
Dwight Freeney, Indianapolis 263
Reggie Hayward, Jacksonville 267
Kyle Vanden, Bosch Tennessee 267
Javon Kearse, Tennessee 258
Tamba Hali, Kansas City 263
Derrick Burgess, Oakland 266
Mathais Kiwanuka, NYG 266
Justin Tuck, NYG 268
Trent Cole, Philadelphia 258
Juqua Parker, Philadelpia 250
Andre Carter, Washington 267
Jason Taylor, Washington 257
Jared Allen, Minnesota 268
John Abraham, Atlanta 263
Will Smith, New Orleans 268
Bobby McGray, New Orleans 263
Gaines Adams, Tampa Bay 258
Bertrand Berry, Cardinals 248
Leonard Little, Rams 258
Justin Smith, San Francisco 268
Daryl Tapp, Seattle 258

Looks like the whole league is weak . . . :coffee:

-----My point was about his upper body strength. Just curious, did you find anything that shows that any of those guys were outbenched by their quarterback? A player can be a little lighter at DE, but he'd damn sure better have some strength to overcome the lack of size. Small and weak in the NFL isn't a recipe for success.

[topscribe]

My point was about his upper body strength. Just curious, did you find anything that shows that any of those guys were outbenched by their quarterback? A player can be a little lighter at DE, but he'd damn sure better have some strength to overcome the lack of size. Small and weak in the NFL isn't a recipe for success.

Well, once again, if he was still weak from staff infection, I would place little
importance on his bench press. Nonetheless, I'm more interested in what he
does on the field, not in the weight room.

I'm not tooting Moss' horn. I'm just saying I would like to see him under normal
conditions, then I will make a judgment, as if my judgment matters. :D

-----

[G_Money]

That is correct. That is what I said. That is when it began. It is not when it
ended. As I said, his complete recovery from the illness was just this past
year. Yet he reported to camp at 245 and never did regain his playing weight.
This is what he is doing this offseason: building to his target of 265.

If he attains that, we just may see an entirely different Jarvis Moss.

Stay tuned . . .

-----

top, seriously man, it was a done deal in 05. He didn't have another staph infection.

He got infected in high school in 03, had it properly diagnosed in Spring 05 and got on antibiotics and fluids that took him from 218 to 240 pounds that year, after which he started making progress as a talent, and ripped up the field in spurts as a sophomore and regularly as a junior. His playing weight has always been 245. It's not an after-effect of some newer staph infection, or a 4 year lingering effect of the old.

http://www.alligator.org/pt2/050930moss.php


Rumors began swirling. Moss' weight began plummeting. After battling with ongoing pelvic pain, Moss received a medical redshirt in 2003.

Realizing his frail physique would allow for little on the defensive line, the Gators moved him to linebacker. Moss played seven plays against Eastern Michigan in 2004. But the pain was too intense. Moss had lost too much weight. He wasn't strong enough any more.

"I just kept telling our guys, 'Hey, when he was healthy, he was a good football player,'" co-defensive coordinator Charlie Strong recalled. "'Something is wrong, and you have to find out what is wrong with him.'"

His spirits falling, his hopes dwindling, Moss wished there was an answer. The weak freshman didn't get one from UF's training staff.

"I knew it was something internal, but the old trainers with the old staff were just telling me that I needed to stretch - that it was my flexibility," Moss said. "All along I knew it was something deep down inside."

-FINALLY-

Urban Meyer and his staff arrived and asked the same questions. But this time, they were going to find answers.

"He didn't look like the big strong football player that he is," said Anthony Pass, UF's head athletic trainer who is in his first season. "That was definitely a red flag for me because he was a real good kid, well-spoken and an intelligent individual. He was frustrated, and that frustrated me because I wanted to know what I could do to help this guy out."

Pass, along with trainer John Dean, dispatched four doctors to run tests and find out what the matter was. After a spring of futile attempts, one test finally bore the answer.

Blood tests revealed that Moss' sediment level was 11 times higher than average. After analyzing bone chips from his pelvis, doctors concluded that bacteria had penetrated Moss' pelvic bone during the high school injection, causing a staph infection that feasted on his body.

With Moss on the verge of quitting football and moving on, the training staff hooked him up to an IV to pump nutrients into him for six weeks. His weight increased from about 218 to 240 pounds.

He had a broken leg to recover from, but the staph thing is over and has been over since before he was drafted. Let it go.

As for converting him to a 3-4, that's the only place he's gonna make an impact. He was never gonna play well for us in a 4-3, so he IS a wild-card in our likely 3-4 conversion, and a good one to have.

If we're gonna get anything out of him, it'll be as a rush LB, so for his sake it should be a welcome shift.

Here's hoping he can do it, cause we could really use the help.

~G

[topscribe]

top, seriously man, it was a done deal in 05. He didn't have another staph infection.

He got infected in high school in 03, had it properly diagnosed in Spring 05 and got on antibiotics and fluids that took him from 218 to 240 pounds that year, after which he started making progress as a talent, and ripped up the field in spurts as a sophomore and regularly as a junior. His playing weight has always been 245. It's not an after-effect of some newer staph infection, or a 4 year lingering effect of the old.

http://www.alligator.org/pt2/050930moss.php



He had a broken leg to recover from, but the staph thing is over and has been over since before he was drafted. Let it go.

As for converting him to a 3-4, that's the only place he's gonna make an impact. He was never gonna play well for us in a 4-3, so he IS a wild-card in our likely 3-4 conversion, and a good one to have.

If we're gonna get anything out of him, it'll be as a rush LB, so for his sake it should be a welcome shift.

Here's hoping he can do it, cause we could really use the help.

~G

I am fully aware of Moss' history, and I know he was not healthy, and he
was severely underweight, going into the regular season this last year. You
have not seen him in his healthiest state, at his normal playing weight.

You do not know whether or not he will play well in the 4-3 or the 3-4
because you have not seen him, once again, at normal health or weight.

The fact Moss has not been cut from the squad must mean the coaches
and FO are less informed than the posters here on this board. I wish
somebody would call them and get them up to date on him.

-----

[G_Money]

His normal playing weight as a sophomore was 245. As a junior? 245. As a rookie? 245. As a 2nd year pro after a leg injury? 245.

Exactly what playing weight is he supposed to be at? Shanahan wanted him to be at 265 but he couldn't make that weight. He hasn't been able to put on weight - infection or no infection, broken leg or healthy leg. George Selvie has that problem. He eats 7 times a day and added 5 pounds between seasons. Some guys just can't add the weight.

Jarvis was a failure as a defensive end in our 4-3 scheme as run by Slowik. That doesn't make him a failure in other schemes, at other positions, coached by other guys.

Moss is free at this point. His guarantees are what they are and the last couple of years of his deal are as cheap as any FA. He's gonna stay until they run him out of his rookie deal or he flat out cannot play any position for the Broncos even as a backup.

Feel free to be hopeful about him at defensive end, or at LB. I am hopeful about him at LB, because even in college that's the position I thought he would play in the pros.

But betting on him raising his functional playing weight to some amount he hasn't hit in his entire life, even after 2 years in a pro weight room, is a long-shot, not the inevitable effect of more waiting time like you seem to make out.

The kid is carved from rock. It's just 245 pounds of rock. Wishing won't make that 270. At this point I don't think anything will. Luckily, we'll get more time to find out. Next year, when he's 245 pounds at OLB, weight won't be his issue.

Then it'll just be whether new coaches and a new position can bring some of that talent to the surface.

~G

[topscribe]

His normal playing weight as a sophomore was 245. As a junior? 245. As a rookie? 245. As a 2nd year pro after a leg injury? 245.

Exactly what playing weight is he supposed to be at? Shanahan wanted him to be at 265 but he couldn't make that weight. He hasn't been able to put on weight - infection or no infection, broken leg or healthy leg. George Selvie has that problem. He eats 7 times a day and added 5 pounds between seasons. Some guys just can't add the weight.

Jarvis was a failure as a defensive end in our 4-3 scheme as run by Slowik. That doesn't make him a failure in other schemes, at other positions, coached by other guys.

Moss is free at this point. His guarantees are what they are and the last couple of years of his deal are as cheap as any FA. He's gonna stay until they run him out of his rookie deal or he flat out cannot play any position for the Broncos even as a backup.

Feel free to be hopeful about him at defensive end, or at LB. I am hopeful about him at LB, because even in college that's the position I thought he would play in the pros.

But betting on him raising his functional playing weight to some amount he hasn't hit in his entire life, even after 2 years in a pro weight room, is a long-shot, not the inevitable effect of more waiting time like you seem to make out.

The kid is carved from rock. It's just 245 pounds of rock. Wishing won't make that 270. At this point I don't think anything will. Luckily, we'll get more time to find out. Next year, when he's 245 pounds at OLB, weight won't be his issue.

Then it'll just be whether new coaches and a new position can bring some of that talent to the surface.

~G

Moss is working this offseason to get up to 265. He made the statement
that it would be his normal playing weight. BTW, he is listed at 265 by both
the NFL and the Broncos' team sites, but at 250 at CoachScout.

Anyway, I am hopeful for him at DE, or I am hopeful for him at LB. Of course
I hope he makes it. He was the Broncos' first round draft choice. We should
hope, should we not?

But I don't know why I'm being so challenged over this. I'm just trying to
realistically say let's wait to see what he does on the field this next year
before we throw him under the bus. That is all I said about my own hopes,
and that is the extent of my prediction.

-----

[Fan in Exile]

There are just a couple of points that need to be made here.

There is no way that we were going to draft Beason or Poz in 2007. DJ was moving over to the middle so that they could keep Gold at the weakside. The biggest need at least as things looked going into the season was on the D-line. Rumor has it that they were looking at Timmons who went to Pit, but he was gone at 15.

There are reasons that Beason and Poz didn't go earlier hindsight is wonderful but the draft is just a crap shoot, so saying we should have taken them is a really weak thing to do now. Saying it then is a good thing.

Let's not blame the talent on the team, quite yet. I have no faith that Slowick could put the right guys on the field, especially after he put the starters back in after they got healthy when the D was doing so much better. The biggest point in Crowder and Moss's favor may be that Slowick didn't have them playing.

It really gets me with Crowder more so than it does Moss. I just don't see there's any way he got that much worse after his rookie year that he should have been benched. I was at the Pit game and he was playing great.

[TXBRONC]

There are just a couple of points that need to be made here.

There is no way that we were going to draft Beason or Poz in 2007. DJ was moving over to the middle so that they could keep Gold at the weakside. The biggest need at least as things looked going into the season was on the D-line. Rumor has it that they were looking at Timmons who went to Pit, but he was gone at 15.

There are reasons that Beason and Poz didn't go earlier hindsight is wonderful but the draft is just a crap shoot, so saying we should have taken them is a really weak thing to do now. Saying it then is a good thing.

Let's not blame the talent on the team, quite yet. I have no faith that Slowick could put the right guys on the field, especially after he put the starters back in after they got healthy when the D was doing so much better. The biggest point in Crowder and Moss's favor may be that Slowick didn't have them playing.

It really gets me with Crowder more so than it does Moss. I just don't see there's any way he got that much worse after his rookie year that he should have been benched. I was at the Pit game and he was playing great.

Thing is there are always trade offs if we take Timmons then we don't get Clady.

[jrelway]

its always a bad thing when you know your team will lose if they cant put up more than 35 points.

[Fan in Exile]

Thing is there are always trade offs if we take Timmons then we don't get Clady.

:confused: How does Timmons who was drafted in 2007 affect Clady who was drafted in 2008?

[G_Money]

There are just a couple of points that need to be made here.

There is no way that we were going to draft Beason or Poz in 2007. DJ was moving over to the middle so that they could keep Gold at the weakside. The biggest need at least as things looked going into the season was on the D-line. Rumor has it that they were looking at Timmons who went to Pit, but he was gone at 15.

There are reasons that Beason and Poz didn't go earlier hindsight is wonderful but the draft is just a crap shoot, so saying we should have taken them is a really weak thing to do now. Saying it then is a good thing.

Let's not blame the talent on the team, quite yet. I have no faith that Slowick could put the right guys on the field, especially after he put the starters back in after they got healthy when the D was doing so much better. The biggest point in Crowder and Moss's favor may be that Slowick didn't have them playing.

It really gets me with Crowder more so than it does Moss. I just don't see there's any way he got that much worse after his rookie year that he should have been benched. I was at the Pit game and he was playing great.

I said it then.

http://www.broncosfreak.org/forum/showpost.php?p=516303&postcount=52


I'm with you on the keeping all our picks thing.

I think there's still gonna be an impact safety at 21, and I like Beason enough not to need to move up for Willis if we wanted to go LB instead (though obviously I like Willis more).

But if we ARE gonna move up for a defender, then Okoye or Willis would be guys I would be okay with doing it for.

Move up for Willis, trade the 3rd for Jenkins? It'd help the D out. I'd still be missing my safety, but more pressure on the QB would help me suck it up for another year.


I'm not just looking at draft lists and picking guys who were good players and available later. ;) Hindsight is fine, but foresight is better, and the Broncos were not good evaluators of their own talent, which caused them to make mistakes in that draft.

Shanahan's ridiculously stupid quote about how he traded picks because our team "was too talented to fit more than 3 or 4 rookies on the squad anyway," just showed what strange assessments were driving our draft, and our moves for draft needs.

Now, at least, we should be able to make that reasonable talent assessment you mentioned though. I hope Moss and Crowder can reclaim themselves from the wreckage of the Slowik defense. It'd be fewer position we'd have to fill.

I'm not counting on it, but if even one of them can become an adequate starter it'd help us out a lot. And they should get their chance, since the odds of us adding new starters via the draft and FA at every position that could use an upgrade are not good.

Some current members of the defense will HAVE to step up while we patch other holes.

Might as well be Moss and/or Crowder, right?

~G

[Ziggy]

:confused: How does Timmons who was drafted in 2007 affect Clady who was drafted in 2008?

I think that TX is saying that if we draft Timmons, we probably win one or 2 more games, and aren't in a position to get Clady in the draft the next year.

[Fan in Exile]

I said it then.

http://www.broncosfreak.org/forum/showpost.php?p=516303&postcount=52



I'm not just looking at draft lists and picking guys who were good players and available later. ;) Hindsight is fine, but foresight is better, and the Broncos were not good evaluators of their own talent, which caused them to make mistakes in that draft.

Shanahan's ridiculously stupid quote about how he traded picks because our team "was too talented to fit more than 3 or 4 rookies on the squad anyway," just showed what strange assessments were driving our draft, and our moves for draft needs.

Now, at least, we should be able to make that reasonable talent assessment you mentioned though. I hope Moss and Crowder can reclaim themselves from the wreckage of the Slowik defense. It'd be fewer position we'd have to fill.

I'm not counting on it, but if even one of them can become an adequate starter it'd help us out a lot. And they should get their chance, since the odds of us adding new starters via the draft and FA at every position that could use an upgrade are not good.

Some current members of the defense will HAVE to step up while we patch other holes.

Might as well be Moss and/or Crowder, right?

~G

I wouldn't argue with you about it G, just the people who look at lists, like you said.

I really think it's going to be other members of our D who step up. I would love to see Moss succeed but I'm not really expecting it.

I think that Crowder is going to be one of those guys who between Slowick and changing schemes ends up doing well for another team. Leaving us to scratch our heads.

I still think getting a MLB was a pipe dream in that draft because they didn't think that Gold was going to tank the way that he did. That's the part of the ridiculous Shanny quote that gets me. Gold tanked Ferguson and Lynch were old. How exactly were they evaluating the players on defense that they didn't see those problems. Sure two d-linemen is great, and build the lines first but come on plan for the future a little.

[Ziggy]

Getting back to the original topic of this thread, I think Armstrong makes a great case, and I think this defense was the worst in the NFL the last 2 years. Hopefully we have some talent on this roster that wasn't being used properly, we pick up some free agents, and draft 2-3 starters this season. I love to see the Broncos start building a D again. I'm looking for the O to put up more points this season with McD calling the shots. Combine that with a middle of the road D, and we might have ourselves a playoff team again.

[G_Money]

I believe it was the worst.

The fact that it WAS the worst and Slowik's job was not in jeopardy is still startling to me. It's fixable - everything is fixable, and we no longer have the dreadful holes and decline on the offensive side. Shanny was kind enough to fix the offense before he left. If you pencil Hillis in as our pre-everything starting RB, then right now 8 of the 11 starting spots on our top-5 offense are occupied by guys who are still on their rookie contracts.

There's a 9th who might push Hamilton at guard in Lichtensteiger.

We still need a RB, maybe a pass-catching TE if we don't want to re-sign Scheff after next year, and another OG/C to groom. Even if we took all 3 of those in the draft there are still a lot of slots open for drafting defense, and all of our FA attention can be focused on that side of the ball.

We're sitting in a good position to turn a piss-poor defense into a decent one. A new DC + new positional coaches + all the FA money + most of the draft picks = a significant upgrade, if we add the right players.

Considering how bad the defensive scheme made pro-bowler Bly and HOFer Bailey look, there are upgrades to be had from within our current defenders as well.

The state of our defense annoys me, but in no way do I believe it's a herculean task to get us back to average. Let's hope McDaniels has a better feel for defense than Shanahan.

~G

[topscribe]

Might as well be Moss and/or Crowder, right?

~G

I would certainly hope so. Maybe that's behind my attempts to be positive
about Moss. We can call it hope against hope. As one of the long-time
Broncos fans on the board, I am also one who has grown weary of first-day
draft choices busting on the D-line.

-----

[omac]

Moss was Bates' choice, so if Bates is any good at spotting defensive talent, there must be some potential in Moss that hasn't come out yet. At least, that's what I'm hoping for. Same with Crowder.

Thomas seems to be doing at least good enough. I've read an article on Thomas' potential because of his athleticism/speed; the article mentions he could become a Sapp type player.

[TXBRONC]

:confused: How does Timmons who was drafted in 2007 affect Clady who was drafted in 2008?

Thought Timmons was taken in the 2008 draft.

[spikerman]

I keep seeing posts about the potential that these guys have. I don't want to debate that. If they didn't have potential they wouldn't be in the NFL. The question I have though is, how long are people willing to wait for potential to develop into success? Moss, Thomas, and Crowder will be coming into their 3rd year and the only one who has stayed on the field is Thomas, but he hasn't exactly been lighting the world on fire.

I am really curious as to whether you all have a timeframe in mind where if they haven't progressed, you would say, "that's enough". I definitely don't think it should take more than three years, but maybe some of you think it should be longer.

[G_Money]

DL typically take 2-3 years to get good, spiker.

It's not unusual. Very, VERY few rookie DL make an impact.

OTOH, being made inactive for half a season or more during your second season in the league is not exactly the step forward you'd like to see.

But with Nate Webster being our starter over the obviously superior Larsen, and Barrett being stuck on the practice squad while our various safeties sucked hard enough to start all kinds of lawnmowers, it's hard to take those sorts of evaluations seriously.

I'd like to know that Moss and Crowder are absolute failures, but we don't know that. With a potential switch to a 3-4 that might take better advantage of their talents we really don't know it.

After year 3 of no production you can start to write them off. DL are one of the big reasons you should wait 3 years to judge drafts. WRs usually take 2 years, QBs 2 years, but DL take that 3rd year.

*shrugs* We'll get another year. Hopefully all of our 2007 DL can come through in a big way for a team with better positional coaches and a more productive scheme.

~G

[TXBRONC]

I keep seeing posts about the potential that these guys have. I don't want to debate that. If they didn't have potential they wouldn't be in the NFL. The question I have though is, how long are people willing to wait for potential to develop into success? Moss, Thomas, and Crowder will be coming into their 3rd year and the only one who has stayed on the field is Thomas, but he hasn't exactly been lighting the world on fire.

I am really curious as to whether you all have a timeframe in mind where if they haven't progressed, you would say, "that's enough". I definitely don't think it should take more than three years, but maybe some of you think it should be longer.

Three years is about what draft picks get. However, if you have coaching changing like we have the coaches might consider keep the guy at least one more year because more times than not there is going be a change in scheme.

More than anything I think it's important to evaluate each player on a case by case basis.

[Bozo Jr.]

Armstrong can stick it up his arse! :shocked:

[skycoyote]

They are really bad. How did this defense get so bad?

[omac]

They are really bad. How did this defense get so bad?

I think it's because Shanny was trying to find ways of getting to the QB, as Peyton was our kryptonite. We replaced Coyer for Bates, believing that Bates would be able to make our defense bring pressure to the QB.

Losing Coyer for Bates then Slowik were both, in hindsight, big downgrades. Coyer never fielded defenses this bad.

[broncofaninfla]

Actually, the defense played exponentially better when the starters were injured. I would say the best games of the year were with Larsen, Woodyard, Bell, and Winborn on the field.

I agree that we had one of the worst defenses last year and IMO the worst defense the Broncos have ever fielded. But I also I agree that we played better when some of our starters got hurt. Not sure who was in charge of evaluating talent on the defensive side of the ball but in hind sight it looks like they were wrong about who should be starting and where they should be playing. That is the sole reason I am going to wait and see how Crowder and Moss respond to the new scheme and system. They might very well be the young talent we all hoped they would be.

[topscribe]

Peyton was our kryptonite.

Huh? The Broncos needed some supermen for kryptonite to bother them.

"Look! Up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane!"







"Nah. It's only a bird." :sad:



-----

[Lonestar]

Huh? The Broncos needed some supermen for kryptonite to bother them.

"Look! Up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane!"







"Nah. It's only a bird scat." :sad:



-----

edited for accuracy

[Lonestar]

They are really bad. How did this defense get so bad?


please note all of the defensive talent drafted under mikey prior to 2006 all of which should have been the building block of what is here to today....

2005 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
2 56 Darrent Williams CB Oklahoma State
3 76 Karl Paymah DB Washington State
3 97 Domonique Foxworth CB Maryland
3 101 Maurice Clarett -- Ohio State
6 200 Chris Myers G Miami (Fla.)
7 239 Paul Ernster K Northern Arizona
2004 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 17 D.J. Williams OLB Miami (Fla.)
2 41 Tatum Bell RB Oklahoma State
2 54 Darius Watts WR Marshall
3 85 Jeremy LeSueur CB Michigan
5 152 Jeff Shoate CB San Diego State
6 171 Triandos Luke WR Alabama
6 190 Josh Sewell -- Nebraska
7 225 Matt Mauck QB Louisiana State
7 247 Brandon Miree RB Pittsburgh
7 250 Bradlee Van Pelt QB Colorado State
2003 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 20 George Foster T Georgia
2 51 Terry Pierce LB Kansas State
4 108 Quentin Griffin RB Oklahoma
4 114 Nick Eason DT Clemson
4 128 Bryant McNeal DE Clemson
5 157 Ben Claxton C Mississippi
5 158 Adrian Madise WR Texas Christian
6 194 Aaron Hunt -- Texas Tech
7 227 Clint Mitchell DE Florida
7 235 Ahmaad Galloway RB Alabama
2002 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 19 Ashley Lelie WR Hawaii
2 51 Clinton Portis RB Miami (Fla.)
3 96 Dorsett Davis DT Mississippi State
4 131 Sam Brandon DB Nevada-Las Vegas
5 144 Herb Haygood WR Michigan State
6 191 Jeb Putzier TE Boise State
7 228 Chris Young DB Georgia Tech
7 231 Monsanto Pope DT Virginia
2001 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 24 Willie Middlebrooks CB Minnesota
2 51 Paul Toviessi DE Marshall
3 87 Reggie Hayward DE Iowa State
4 113 Ben Hamilton C Minnesota
4 120 Nick Harris P California
6 190 Kevin Kasper WR Iowa
2000 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 15 Deltha O'Neal CB California
2 40 Ian Gold LB Michigan
2 45 Kenoy Kennedy SAF Arkansas
3 70 Chris Cole WR Texas A&M
4 101 Jerry Johnson DT Florida State
4 112 Cooper Carlisle G Florida
5 154 Muneer Moore WR Richmond
6 189 Mike Anderson RB Utah
7 214 Jarious Jackson QB Notre Dame
7 246 Leroy Fields -- Jackson State
1999 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 31 Al Wilson MLB Tennessee
2 58 Montae Reagor DE Texas Tech
2 61 Lennie Friedman C Duke
3 67 Chris Watson CB Eastern Illinois
3 93 Travis McGriff WR Florida
4 127 Olandis Gary RB Georgia
5 158 David Bowens LB Western Illinois
5 167 Darwin Brown DB Texas Tech
6 179 Desmond Clark TE Wake Forest
6 204 Chad Plummer WR Cincinnati
7 218 Billy Miller WR USC
7 238 Justin Swift TE Kansas State
1998 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 30 Marcus Nash WR Tennessee
2 61 Eric Brown SS Mississippi State
3 91 Brian Griese QB Michigan
4 122 Curtis Alexander -- Alabama
5 153 Chris Howard RB Michigan
7 200 Trey Teague T Tennessee
7 219 Nate Wayne LB Mississippi
1997 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 28 Trevor Pryce DT Clemson
3 67 Dan Neil G Texas
4 124 Cory Gilliard DB Ball State
1996 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 15 John Mobley OLB Kutztown
2 44 Tory James DB Louisiana State
3 65 Detron Smith RB Texas A&M
3 78 Mark Campbell DT Florida
4 100 Jeff Lewis QB Northern Arizona
4 122 Darrius Johnson DB Oklahoma
5 159 Patrick Jeffers WR Virginia
6 181 Tony Veland DB Nebraska
7 213 Leslie Ratliffe -- Tennessee
7 226 Chris Banks G Kansas
7 235 L.T. Levine -- Kansas
7 236 Brian Gragert -- Wyoming
1995 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
4 121 Jamie Brown T Florida A&M
4 124 Ken Brown LB Virginia Tech
5 146 Phil Yeboah-Kodie LB Penn State
6 182 Fritz Fequiere -- Iowa
6 196 Terrell Davis RB Georgia
7 218 Steve Russ LB Air Force
7 222 Byron Chamberlain WR Wayne State (Neb.)


Almost all very forgettable names outside price, Mobley, Wilson, and DJ..

[G_Money]

You forgot to highlight Reagor there, Jr. But that list of defensive draftpicks still hurts.

The year we drafted Reagor and Wilson was a decent first day. We just didn't keep Reagor.

After that....man, the 2000 draft the next year where 4 out of 5 picks were on defense - much like this year's might be - and all we got was Al Wilson, really hurt. Though O'Neal has gone on to a long career once he got outta here. Then the next year, with the first 3 picks also devoted to defense, and also various levels of fail...

Please, please, PLEASE let us be past those levels of failure now. We need our picks to work out this year.

~G

[Cugel]

DL typically take 2-3 years to get good, spiker.

It's not unusual. Very, VERY few rookie DL make an impact.

OTOH, being made inactive for half a season or more during your second season in the league is not exactly the step forward you'd like to see.

But with Nate Webster being our starter over the obviously superior Larsen, and Barrett being stuck on the practice squad while our various safeties sucked hard enough to start all kinds of lawnmowers, it's hard to take those sorts of evaluations seriously.

I'd like to know that Moss and Crowder are absolute failures, but we don't know that. With a potential switch to a 3-4 that might take better advantage of their talents we really don't know it.

After year 3 of no production you can start to write them off. DL are one of the big reasons you should wait 3 years to judge drafts. WRs usually take 2 years, QBs 2 years, but DL take that 3rd year.

*shrugs* We'll get another year. Hopefully all of our 2007 DL can come through in a big way for a team with better positional coaches and a more productive scheme.

~G

I think we can agree that unless Shanahan and his defensive coaches were all idiots Moss and Crowder are busts. You're absolutely right that DEs SHOULD show some signs of life in their 2nd season!

They might not be starters, but they should at least get on the field so that there's a basis for them becoming starters and good players in their 3rd season.

It's hard to imagine that Moss/Crowder are going to leap from sitting on the bench for the worst defense in the NFL to being starters in their 3rd seasons.

I think Crowder at least is likely to be cut this off-season. Moss might get another season to see what he can do because they invested a 1st round pick on him and it's a shame to waste it.

But, if he doesn't become a starter at SOME position this season there's really no reason to keep him on when he's earning $2.5 million a year!

As for Thomas, at least he was a starter. He pretty much sucked like the rest of the defense, but he started so it's possible to imagine he'll become good this season -- if he were to play DT in a 4-3.

But, he's too small to play NT and we don't know if he can move out and play DE in a 3-4. So he might be out of a job anyway.

As for Dumervil, his contract is going to expire soon and you have to wonder if they want to keep him. He's a reasonably good pass-rusher so if your team has somebody on the other side to take up blockers you could use him as a pass-rush specialist. Unless he's constantly double-teamed he can have some success.

They might trade him if they can't use him because they're changing the defense and he can't play OLB and is too small to play DE in a 3-4.

As for Larsen & Barrett, both are scrubs. Admittedly they are better than Webster and Marlon McCree but that's not saying much. So, the fact that they were on the bench isn't an indication of total brain lock for Shanahan. It wouldn't have made much difference if they were starting day 1. :coffee:

[Lonestar]

You forgot to highlight Reagor there, Jr. But that list of defensive draftpicks still hurts.

The year we drafted Reagor and Wilson was a decent first day. We just didn't keep Reagor.

After that....man, the 2000 draft the next year where 4 out of 5 picks were on defense - much like this year's might be - and all we got was Al Wilson, really hurt. Though O'Neal has gone on to a long career once he got outta here. Then the next year, with the first 3 picks also devoted to defense, and also various levels of fail...

Please, please, PLEASE let us be past those levels of failure now. We need our picks to work out this year.

~G



sorry I thought I had hi lighted him will correct that

A few players went on to other teams and played well..

Regeaor, Hayward , berry (not drafted), and couple of CB that went to OAK.. but why where they allowed to leave? someone here had their head up their ass and could not see the talent or in the GM's area did not want to pay them..

Afterall it was not like we were overloaded in talent when those players left..

Sorry but a major reason why mikey is finishing his house and not getting ready for another draft..

[G_Money]

I'm not on the Moss or Crowder bandwagons, just saying that since they failed in our 4-3, that doesn't make them automatic failures in a 3-4 or under a different coaching staff.

Just from that list that Jr put up, guys like Deltha O'Neal went on to a Pro Bowl with another team and Reagor was a starter for a very good Indy team. Players wash out of one team or system all the time, only to help another system.

I think Moss has a better chance of being a pass-rushing OLB than Crowder does of being a DT, but the odds are against both. Still, it's the off-season, so it's a time for optimism.

Both Crowder and Moss are making less in guarantees now than most any FA you're gonna bring in, though, so you let them play and see if they can at least be backups.

Thomas is 6'3, 320. That's not to small to play NT. He can either gain 10 pounds for the nose or lose 10 pounds and play the end. I think he'll be a better 3-4 end than nose, but we might have to make him play the nose anyway if we can't get enough other guys in to do it. I just don't think that will necessarily play to his strengths - I hope we have the choice.

Doom is probably gone, I agree with you. I can't see him being successful enough at LB, but he's been surprising people his whole career. I'll let him try to surprise me in this.

Larsen and Barrett haven't played enough to say if they're scrubs or not. Larsen is Laurinaitis, maybe a touch slower, and Barrett is a physical monster if he can stay healthy.

Neither guy played badly in their chances - even with the abomination of a scheme we were running.

Both should be in contention to be starters next year, or failing that to be quality backups. That's plenty fine for where they were drafted, and they're practically free, which is the best kind of backup, especially since both are also good STers.

Much better than the millions we're playing Kou not to take the field.

I'm curious to see who we add in FA. How are we gonna fill our needs on defense with vets, and how will that affect our draft?

We've skipped on LB and S early in the last two years because we kept trying to fill with vets, and that backfired abominably in 07. It's hard to fault the 08 draft, seeing what we added on the first day, but once again FA failed us at LB and S - with FOUR new starting additions at those spots, I might add, and all four wound up as failures. Worse, most of us thought they'd be failures before the season started. That's never good.

Hopefully we don't feel that way this year. I want some good vibes going into the year. And some depth.

~G

[Superchop 7]

Hmmmmm........what was that thread that got me kicked off Broncos Country ?

Oh yeah, now I remember.

"Worst linebacking in the history of pro football"

Vindication is sweet.

[Cugel]

I'm not on the Moss or Crowder bandwagons, just saying that since they failed in our 4-3, that doesn't make them automatic failures in a 3-4 or under a different coaching staff.

Just from that list that Jr put up, guys like Deltha O'Neal went on to a Pro Bowl with another team and Reagor was a starter for a very good Indy team. Players wash out of one team or system all the time, only to help another system.

Everybody's hoping that's the case, and it's possible, but that's not the way to bet. Having Moss and/or Crowder suddenly emerge as successful OLBs in a 3-4 would be like picking the winning lotto ticket. It's a nice surprise, but you can't expect it to happen, at least not from anything they've shown so far. :coffee:


I think Moss has a better chance of being a pass-rushing OLB than Crowder does of being a DE, but the odds are against both. Still, it's the off-season, so it's a time for optimism.

Both Crowder and Moss are making less in guarantees now than most any FA you're gonna bring in, though, so you let them play and see if they can at least be backups.

Pretty much agreed. Except that getting paid $2.5 million a year to sit on the bench and attend meetings and practices is a pretty good job! That's a LOT for a backup, let alone a guy who doesn't even suit up on Sundays. :coffee:


Thomas is 6'3, 320. That's not to small to play NT. He can either gain 10 pounds for the nose or lose 10 pounds and play the end. I think he'll be a better 3-4 end than nose, but we might have to make him play the nose anyway if we can't get enough other guys in to do it. I just don't think that will necessarily play to his strengths - I hope we have the choice.

Well, Thomas was NOT strong at the point of attack. That was a problem with Denver's defense this past year. Nobody had to double-team him, which is what your NT has to be able to handle, and yet he rarely made any plays.

Thomas is more of a penetrating DT only he didn't show that much so far. He rarely collapsed the pocket or penetrated the G-T gap. Now, sometimes it takes 2 or 3 seasons for a DT to start to become a good player, so perhaps this is Thomas' year.

But, suddenly moving him to a new position in a new system is bound to slow his development some, and that development wasn't great to begin with.

He doesn't appear to be great material for a NT. He's NOT that strong that he can stand up multiple blockers, shed blockers at the point of attack and clog up the lanes to stuff the run -- all things the NT should be able to do.


Doom is probably gone, I agree with you. I can't see him being successful enough at LB, but he's been surprising people his whole career. I'll let him try to surprise me in this.

Doom will command some decent money in FA. He's not big enough or strong enough to be an every-down RDE, but he can rush the passer and having had a double-digit sack season will make teams sit up and take notice. He'll get a LOT of money as a FA if Denver decides to let him walk.

OR, if they trade him they might get a draft pick.

Additionally, there's no reason to believe he'd be worse than Moss as a 3-4 OLB. Not saying much I admit.


Larsen and Barrett haven't played enough to say if they're scrubs or not. Larsen is Laurinaitis, maybe a touch slower, and Barrett is a physical monster if he can stay healthy.

Neither guy played badly in their chances - even with the abomination of a scheme we were running.

Both should be in contention to be starters next year, or failing that to be quality backups. That's plenty fine for where they were drafted, and they're practically free, which is the best kind of backup, especially since both are also good STers.

There are lots of guys like Larsen & Barrett in the league and they're usually backups for most teams. I only meant "scrubs" as in "average NFL players who last for a couple of seasons and then are replaced -- rarely start and never make the pro-bowl."

Now, it's possible that either or both will emerge as great players in a couple of years. But, that would be unexpected. They weren't highly drafted players and are more probably useful backups.


Much better than the millions we're playing Kou not to take the field.

Agreed. The less said about him the better, except "turn in your playbook and clear out your locker."


I'm curious to see who we add in FA. How are we gonna fill our needs on defense with vets, and how will that affect our draft?

We've skipped on LB and S early in the last two years because we kept trying to fill with vets, and that backfired abominably in 07. It's hard to fault the 08 draft, seeing what we added on the first day, but once again FA failed us at LB and S - with FOUR new starting additions at those spots, I might add, and all four wound up as failures. Worse, most of us thought they'd be failures before the season started. That's never good.

Hopefully we don't feel that way this year. I want some good vibes going into the year. And some depth.

It's tough to fill the DL with FAs because teams make such efforts to keep their good young DL. Usually you are either overpaying for an aging Warren Sapp, or else signing someone like -- well all the FAs the Broncos have the last few years.

Probably the best of them was the one year that Courtney Brown was healthy in 2005. Aside from that we might as well not mention about 20 FAs Shanahan tried to bring in, all of whom failed utterly. (Ex: The pathetic Simeon Rice experiment).

[broncofaninfla]

Larsen was just a little better than Webster? He was far better and this without much practice time at the postion because Shanny kept wasting him at FB. I truly feel the kid is going to be a gamer for us especially with Martindale's insight and direction and Nolan's scheme.

[topscribe]

You forgot to highlight Reagor there, Jr. But that list of defensive draftpicks still hurts.

The year we drafted Reagor and Wilson was a decent first day. We just didn't keep Reagor.

After that....man, the 2000 draft the next year where 4 out of 5 picks were on defense - much like this year's might be - and all we got was Al Wilson, really hurt. Though O'Neal has gone on to a long career once he got outta here. Then the next year, with the first 3 picks also devoted to defense, and also various levels of fail...

Please, please, PLEASE let us be past those levels of failure now. We need our picks to work out this year.

~G

I don't believe D-Will's death should qualify him off the list of draft successes.
He was starting at the time, and people inside the organization, including
Champ, felt he was a budding star.

Also, Foxworth gave the Broncos a quality defender, and he has gone on to
become the best secondary player on his present team. Paymah is a backup,
of course, but he was drafted in the 3rd round, where a player may be a
starter, or he may be a backup . . . that is a "tweener" round. So neither one
of them can be considered busts.

Sam Brandon gave the Broncos a lot of service, and he was a 4th rounder,
you recall, so he could not have been considered a bad pick.

I don't know what happened to Deltha O'Neal with the Broncos, but I now
wonder whether the case was mismanagement of him rather than a bust. He
did go on to the Bengals and now the Patriots in a somewhat decent career.
Moreover, his trade helped the Broncos to move up to #17 in the 2004 draft
to get D.J. So, while he has not quite played up to his #1 status, I hesitate in
referring to that as "bust," although it was probably a bad draft choice for the
1st round.

Nick Eason is another exception, the victim of an Achilles injury, rather than a
busted draft. He has more than proven himself for being drafted in the 4th
round, having just played in the Super Bowl with the Steelers.

I wonder, then, just how much some of these players were simply the victims
of mismanagement, rather than bad drafting. After all, the DC position has
been a revolving door around here. This is why I am more than excited about
the defensive staff McDaniels has put together: for once, I see real quality
there.

Nonetheless, these added exceptions still leave too many holes in past drafts
for the defense. If the Broncos can have half the success with the defense in
the upcoming draft as they did in 2008 or 2006 offensively, that may well
turn around the defense because I believe the present defensive problems are
the result just as much of mismanagement of personnel and schemes as it
is the lack of talent . . . and maybe more.

-----

[broncosinindy]

You know TOP, let's presume for a minute that Moss gains some size & strength this off-season. Where do they play him?

He might be in the size & weight range of a 4-3 DE if he gains some weight, but he's NOTHING like the size of a 3-4 DE and can't possibly play that spot.

So, he's got to learn a new position at 3-4 OLB and won't have a lot of time to do so before the new coaches give up on him.

Crowder is on even thinner ice.

If the team stays in the 4-3 he's stuck behind Dumervil, because he sure as hell can't play LDE which requires a lot of strength (probably the best Broncos LDE of the last 10 years was Courtney Brown -- the one year he was reasonably healthy was 2005). Well, neither Dumervil, Moss nor Crowder has the strength to hold up at 4-3 LDE.

Shanahan is gone and McDaniels doesn't have anything invested in Moss/Crowder/Dumervil or Thomas. He can just say "good riddance to bad trash" if he chooses and bring in all new players.

He might very well decide to do just that, concluding that the talent level of the Broncos front 7 personnel just isn't good enough to compete.

This happens sometimes to players. The get injured, get healthy, suddenly find themselves with a new coach who doesn't like them for whatever reason, and suddenly they're out of the league. Even very highly drafted players have this happen. I've heard some NFL Players say that it's partly dependent on LUCK -- being on the right team at the right time and having a coach take a chance on you, staying healthy enough to be good, etc. (I think of Eddie McCaffrey whose career was revitalized by coming to Denver).

It's kind of sad really. I remember seeing a video of David Terrell (former Bears #8 pick) when he started out his second try-out with the Broncos. He seemed like a decent enough guy and said all the right things, but nothing happened. Sometimes it just doesn't work out for these guys.
Doom and Crowder were exceptionally strong Tim Crowder had 32 reps fora DE that is a good number. i think it was one of the top numbers that year.

Dumervil had 30 reps so to say those guys are not strong is wrong.

If dumervil is 260 lbs and reps 30 at 225 how can he be such a liablity agaisnt the run on the weak side..

[topscribe]

Doom and Crowder were exceptionally strong Tim Crowder had 32 reps fora DE that is a good number. i think it was one of the top numbers that year.

Dumervil had 30 reps so to say those guys are not strong is wrong.

If dumervil is 260 lbs and reps 30 at 225 how can he be such a liablity agaisnt the run on the weak side..

My thought exactly. There are at least 12 to 15 starting DEs who are under
270 lbs. right now, and Doom's 260 is a more compact, powerful 260 because
of his height. This garbage about his being too weak is . . . well, garbage.

-----

[Lonestar]

My thought exactly. There are at least 12 to 15 starting DEs who are under
270 lbs. right now, and Doom's 260 is a more compact, powerful 260 because
of his height. This garbage about his being too weak is . . . well, garbage.

-----

yet if he is not or wasn't not in because of a rush deficiency how it that going to be overcome at OLB? A stand up postition.. his greatest asset was getting off the LOS before the OT got set up.. strictly a speed rusher

[broncosinindy]

My thought exactly. There are at least 12 to 15 starting DEs who are under
270 lbs. right now, and Doom's 260 is a more compact, powerful 260 because
of his height. This garbage about his being too weak is . . . well, garbage.

-----

The thing about doom is that he has a great reach for his size. his arms are longer then a normal 5'11 guy.

Thing is i see a 4-3 this year. and Doom will be welcomed back by me as a 3rd down guy.

Moss i like he is great at rushing the passer IF he is not placed on the end. I also thought he held up on running downs to his side fairly well.

Crowder was a no show this year and i dont know why. Obviously he was in someones dog house. look for this Team to feel rejuvinated this year. and play alot harder. New sometimes is a great thing.

I am gonna say it now i think we need to purge this team of all the crap that aint gonna make it. Build threw the draft. FA is for adding a piece or two but when you need to retool a team Draft is the best way to go. JMO

[TXBRONC]

The thing about doom is that he has a great reach for his size. his arms are longer then a normal 5'11 guy.

Thing is i see a 4-3 this year. and Doom will be welcomed back by me as a 3rd down guy.

Moss i like he is great at rushing the passer IF he is not placed on the end. I also thought he held up on running downs to his side fairly well.

Crowder was a no show this year and i dont know why. Obviously he was in someones dog house. look for this Team to feel rejuvinated this year. and play alot harder. New sometimes is a great thing.

I am gonna say it now i think we need to purge this team of all the crap that aint gonna make it. Build threw the draft. FA is for adding a piece or two but when you need to retool a team Draft is the best way to go. JMO

I would think that's what McDaniels and his coaching staff will do once they have evaluated the roster.

[broncosinindy]

I would think that's what McDaniels and his coaching staff will do once they have evaluated the roster.

Do they tape practicces? I think that might help the evaluation of some of the guys that didnt play a whole lot CoughTIMCROWDERCough

[TXBRONC]

Do they tape practicces? I think that might help the evaluation of some of the guys that didnt play a whole lot CoughTIMCROWDERCough

I wish I knew. :noidea:

[Lonestar]

Do they tape practicces? I think that might help the evaluation of some of the guys that didnt play a whole lot CoughTIMCROWDERCough


they used to whether they were kept who knows.. They used to have a tower on each end to the field where the video guy taped from..

[topscribe]

yet if he is not or wasn't not in because of a rush deficiency how it that going to be overcome at OLB? A stand up postition.. his greatest asset was getting off the LOS before the OT got set up.. strictly a speed rusher

He was good as a bull rusher, too, when he could use his speed in either
direction. But with the broken finger, he couldn't, so a bull rush was no
surprise. I don't care how big the DE is, a bull rush has to be somewhat of a
surprise, or it won't work . . . those tackles are just too good and too big
themselves.

But even Joe Collier said it would be worth seeing if Dumervil and Moss were
good at OLB. So, while we don't yet know, it still is a possibility.

-----

[Lonestar]

He was good as a bull rusher, too, when he could use his speed in either
direction. But with the broken finger, he couldn't, so a bull rush was no
surprise. I don't care how big the DE is, a bull rush has to be somewhat of a
surprise, or it won't work . . . those tackles are just too good and too big
themselves.

But even Joe Collier said it would be worth seeing if Dumervil and Moss were
good at OLB. So, while we don't yet know, it still is a possibility.

-----


Not so sure about the bull rush as those are normally bigger stronger guys that keep coming straight ahead.. If he did that I did not see it but then I missed alot of games this year..

[TXBRONC]

Not so sure about the bull rush as those are normally bigger stronger guys that keep coming straight ahead.. If he did that I did not see it but then I missed alot of games this year..

Yes Dumervil is very good at bull rushing because of his quickness and natural leverage advantage.

[broncosinindy]

Not so sure about the bull rush as those are normally bigger stronger guys that keep coming straight ahead.. If he did that I did not see it but then I missed alot of games this year..

The thing about the bull rush is this. and Doom does have a good bull rush is to keep the Tackle guessing. if you become one dimensional then a tackle has you already beat. one of the main reasons why he is as good as he is. I think i read somewhere where doom said he liked to play every down so he could set up his man.

[topscribe]

Yes Dumervil is very good at bull rushing because of his quickness and natural leverage advantage.

That's just it. Doom is able to get under the pads of the tackle because of the
difference in their respective heights. Then he has the power of his 260 lbs.
on his 5-11 frame to move him. If you get underneath a guy, he's going to
have a difficult time overcoming you, no matter how big he is.

-----

[Lonestar]

That's just it. Doom is able to get under the pads of the tackle because of the difference in their respective heights. Then he has the power of his 260 lbs. on his 5-11 frame to move him. If you get underneath a guy, he's going to have a difficult time overcoming you, no matter how big he is.

-----

I knew this but never saw him doing it.. only time I saw him near the QB was coming off the edge around the TE or OT.. not going through/over them like Strahan used to do..

[LRtagger]

That's just it. Doom is able to get under the pads of the tackle because of the
difference in their respective heights. Then he has the power of his 260 lbs.
on his 5-11 frame to move him. If you get underneath a guy, he's going to
have a difficult time overcoming you, no matter how big he is.

-----

Thats why he gets held on every play.

[TXBRONC]

That's just it. Doom is able to get under the pads of the tackle because of the
difference in their respective heights. Then he has the power of his 260 lbs.
on his 5-11 frame to move him. If you get underneath a guy, he's going to
have a difficult time overcoming you, no matter how big he is.

-----

The only way Dumervil's leverage advantage could be nullified in is if our opponents have a 5'11" offensive tackle or if offensive tackles can start playing from their knees. I'll go out on a limb here and say neither of those two things will happen.

[Cugel]

That's just it. Doom is able to get under the pads of the tackle because of the
difference in their respective heights. Then he has the power of his 260 lbs.
on his 5-11 frame to move him. If you get underneath a guy, he's going to
have a difficult time overcoming you, no matter how big he is.

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That's the theory. In practice Dumervil rarely managed to do this in 2008. He had 4 sacks and most of them were coverage sacks where he came way around the edge but the QB held onto the ball and he eventually got there.

Now, there's nothing wrong with that. Compared with the other Broncos DEs he's miles ahead (i.e. could actually play for someone else).

But, he's probably better suited for a 4-3 than a 3-4 defense. If he's not traded this season, it will be his last for the Broncos. (Unless of course the 3-4 defense sucks so bad this year they go back to the 4-3 next year or something)!

:shocked: