Tebow and the prevent defense

[CrazyHorse]

Is Tebow only good against prevent defense schemes. I've noticed in most of the comebacks that's what the other teams have switched to prematurely. Are his 4th quarter performances just an illusion?

[Clipworthy]

Against Tebow, there is no such thing as a prevent defense when the game is on the line. There is no preventing the path of Tebus.

[wayninja]

Tebow chews up prevent. The problem for opposing defenses is that he plays so poorly during regulation that they get sloppy when playing prevent and it really surprises them.

Playing prevent against Tebow is really setting yourself up for an unpleasant surprise.

[battherastard]

No. Teams can't drop that many backs because they have to respect his ability to run.

[SR]

It'd be nice if Tebow could manage during the first three quarters to put up some points so that this conversation would never happen.

[MasterShake]

It'd be nice if Tebow could manage during the first three quarters to put up some points so that this conversation would never happen.

That pass to D. Thomas was beautiful live and looked like it should have been a TD. Not sure what the replays on TV showed.

[wayninja]

That pass to D. Thomas was beautiful live and looked like it should have been a TD. Not sure what the replays on TV showed.

They showed about 2-3 inches of overthrow. At that distance it's still a marksman's shot. Hit DT in the palms though, that should have been a TD, no question.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

To say the Bears or the Vikings played "prevent" defense the past 2 weeks is just wrong. Nobody was playing "prevent". They were playing cover 2 like they usually do in their base formation. Yeah, their Safeties were a little deeper than usual to prevent the big play, but they were still rushing 4 guys on every down and dropping 7 into coverage with 2 deep Safeties - hence, Cover 2. Don't confuse the Bears or Vikings Tampa 2 with a prevent because they keep their Safeties deep. They were playing a conservative Cover 2 "off" but it was Cover 2 nonetheless.

What else are they going to do, blitz? Tebow showed the Jets that blitzing him when he's running the 2 minute drill out of the shotgun spread is a bad idea. What other scheme were they going to run? You'll know when it's "prevent" because there will normally be only 3 D-linemen on the field and the rest are usually D-backs (that you normally won't see on the screen anywhere near the LOS) with maybe one LB and they will play deep Cover 4 with 4 underneath cover guys and 4 guys over the top.

[catfish]

They showed about 2-3 inches of overthrow. At that distance it's still a marksman's shot. Hit DT in the palms though, that should have been a TD, no question.

they called him out on NFL network, said he needs to catch that

[Northman]

Is Tebow only good against prevent defense schemes. I've noticed in most of the comebacks that's what the other teams have switched to prematurely. Are his 4th quarter performances just an illusion?

If they are than so is EVERY other comeback from EVERY other QB. I can guarantee Manning's Monday night comeback against Tampa so long ago by 21 down was done against the prevent. Prevent prevents nothing but yet teams that have the lead go to it for whatever reason. Tebow's are no different than any other QB.

[catfish]

I didn't get to watch the game, but I guaran-damn-tee that they werent in prevent for the 2 field goal drives

[SM19]

I'm definitely beginning to suspect that this is what's going on. Actual clutch quarterbacking is pretty much out of the question as an explanation; if Tebow is really capable of raising his level of play to such a great degree in the fourth quarter, he'd be the first quarterback in NFL history with this ability. Far more likely defenses are changing the way they defend Tebow with a fourth-quarter lead, or we're changing the way we call plays on offense when trailing in the fourth quarter (kind of like clutch pitching in baseball, where pitchers have throws they don't use in ordinary game situations), or it's a combination of the two.

[NameUsedBefore]

The Bears actually did blitz at the end. They were trying to stop him from rolling left, at least from what I could see. And at the outside they were playing Cover-2 and the corner worried about Decker flying down the middle which, actually, was a threat in itself. They were chasing two rabbits out there.

[Northman]

I also know that in the Jets game on the final play where Tebow scrambled for the TD was a blitz also.

[wayninja]

I'm definitely beginning to suspect that this is what's going on. Actual clutch quarterbacking is pretty much out of the question as an explanation; if Tebow is really capable of raising his level of play to such a great degree in the fourth quarter, he'd be the first quarterback in NFL history with this ability. Far more likely defenses are changing the way they defend Tebow with a fourth-quarter lead, or we're changing the way we call plays on offense when trailing in the fourth quarter (kind of like clutch pitching in baseball, where pitchers have throws they don't use in ordinary game situations), or it's a combination of the two.

Combination of the two. There's a first time for everything and I'm starting to believe that he can tap into his god-chi and play 'better' somehow when the game is on the line. The D usually also changes their scheme when hanging on to a lead. I'm willing to bet the next team that plays us that has a lead going into the final minutes of the game plays much more aggressively and foregoes prevent altogether.

[Simple Jaded]

To say the Bears or the Vikings played "prevent" defense the past 2 weeks is just wrong. Nobody was playing "prevent". They were playing cover 2 like they usually do in their base formation. Yeah, their Safeties were a little deeper than usual to prevent the big play, but they were still rushing 4 guys on every down and dropping 7 into coverage with 2 deep Safeties - hence, Cover 2. Don't confuse the Bears or Vikings Tampa 2 with a prevent because they keep their Safeties deep. They were playing a conservative Cover 2 "off" but it was Cover 2 nonetheless.

What else are they going to do, blitz? Tebow showed the Jets that blitzing him when he's running the 2 minute drill out of the shotgun spread is a bad idea. What other scheme were they going to run? You'll know when it's "prevent" because there will normally be only 3 D-linemen on the field and the rest are usually D-backs (that you normally won't see on the screen anywhere near the LOS) with maybe one LB and they will play deep Cover 4 with 4 underneath cover guys and 4 guys over the top.

Two S's 25 yards deep with LB's and CB's playing 15 yards off, sounds like prevent to me.

The fatal flaw tonight was giving up the sideline passes, but it was prevent. Moose Johnston even mentioned as much.......

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I'm definitely beginning to suspect that this is what's going on. Actual clutch quarterbacking is pretty much out of the question as an explanation; if Tebow is really capable of raising his level of play to such a great degree in the fourth quarter, he'd be the first quarterback in NFL history with this ability. Far more likely defenses are changing the way they defend Tebow with a fourth-quarter lead, or we're changing the way we call plays on offense when trailing in the fourth quarter (kind of like clutch pitching in baseball, where pitchers have throws they don't use in ordinary game situations), or it's a combination of the two.

So what you're saying is, either Tebow is clutch and plays well out of the shotgun spread where he can choose to either throw to an open receiver and if it's not there tuck it and run based on what the defense gives him...

...or

Every team in the league that we've played so far has a DC and HC not worth a shit who can't watch film and/or gameplan...

Really everyone, it's okay to give credit where it's due. Tebow is doing exactly what he's always done - play his best when he must. Tebow and the rest of the offense are just outplaying opposing defenses in pressure situations late in games, period. He's perfect for it because we really can send 5 receivers into the pattern and still have a running threat. There's no possible way the defense can take away 5 WRs AND stop a legitimate running threat.

The bottom line is, Tebow is ******* clutch and because of that, the offense has become clutch, playing their very best when they have to. The defense has also become ridiculously clutch the last few weeks - making huge stops and getting huge turnovers just when you think there's no chance left.

There's no conspiracy here. The other coaches and teams don't get a case of the dumbshits just so we can come back and win every week. They get outplayed and out-coached. That's all it is.

Tell me oh smart guys, how do you stop Tebow with the ball, up a score, with 2:00 on the clock? If you know the answer, then you might want to send your resume out because nobody else can. Prevent doesn't work (and isn't used half as much as people think), blitzing doesn't work, and staying in your base formation against our 5 WR set doesn't work. Line up agaisnt the pass and Tebow will run. Blitz to stop the run or pressure Tebow and someone on the back end will get open and Tebow will scramble enough to buy time and find him.

It works late in games because we let Tebow be Tebow. During the game, we play conservatively. Very little risk is involved in our scheme, but when trailing late in the 4th, our scheme goes out the window and we play to WIN, not to not make mistakes. Like it or not, our system has worked in the past 6 out of 7 games. We win because we keep it close and play ball for 60 minutes, not because every defensive coordinator gets stupid all of a sudden.

[Dreadnought]

So what you're saying is, either Tebow is clutch and plays well out of the shotgun spread where he can choose to either throw to an open receiver and if it's not there tuck it and run based on what the defense gives him...

...or

Every team in the league that we've played so far has a DC and HC not worth a shit who can't watch film and/or gameplan...

Really everyone, it's okay to give credit where it's due. Tebow is doing exactly what he's always done - play his best when he must. Tebow and the rest of the offense are just outplaying opposing defenses in pressure situations late in games, period. He's perfect for it because we really can send 5 receivers into the pattern and still have a running threat. There's no possible way the defense can take away 5 WRs AND stop a legitimate running threat.

The bottom line is, Tebow is ******* clutch and because of that, the offense has become clutch, playing their very best when they have to. The defense has also become ridiculously clutch the last few weeks - making huge stops and getting huge turnovers just when you think there's no chance left.

There's no conspiracy here. The other coaches and teams don't get a case of the dumbshits just so we can come back and win every week. They get outplayed and out-coached. That's all it is.

Tell me oh smart guys, how do you stop Tebow with the ball, up a score, with 2:00 on the clock? If you know the answer, then you might want to send your resume out because nobody else can. Prevent doesn't work (and isn't used half as much as people think), blitzing doesn't work, and staying in your base formation against our 5 WR set doesn't work. Line up agaisnt the pass and Tebow will run. Blitz to stop the run or pressure Tebow and someone on the back end will get open and Tebow will scramble enough to buy time and find him.

It works late in games because we let Tebow be Tebow. During the game, we play conservatively. Very little risk is involved in our scheme, but when trailing late in the 4th, our scheme goes out the window and we play to WIN, not to not make mistakes. Like it or not, our system has worked in the past 6 out of 7 games. We win because we keep it close and play ball for 60 minutes, not because every defensive coordinator gets stupid all of a sudden.

This - and now its time for McCoy to take off the training wheels. We are doing it more, but not enough, and too predictably. I still want us a run heavy team, but more play action would be nice. Tebow is throwing pretty damned accurately for the most part now.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Two S's 25 yards deep with LB's and CB's playing 15 yards off, sounds like prevent to me.

The fatal flaw tonight was giving up the sideline passes, but it was prevent. Moose Johnston even mentioned as much.......

No, he made mention to having their Safeties deep to "prevent a big play". That doesn't mean playing "prevent". The CBs are still expected to cover their assigned WRs and the D-line was rushing 4 - not in an effort to contain Tebow, but to sack him. That's not prevent.

[Mike]

I swear...some of our fans....

After the last few years I promised myself to simply enjoy winning and not take good times for granted. Screw the amateur-hour analysis by people hoping players on their favorite damned team fails.

[Simple Jaded]

No, he made mention to having their Safeties deep to "prevent a big play". That doesn't mean playing "prevent". The CBs are still expected to cover their assigned WRs and the D-line was rushing 4 - not in an effort to contain Tebow, but to sack him. That's not prevent.

He said the Bears are gonna sit back and let the Broncos have whatever they want underneath, that is prevent. Dilfer said "We can talk about prevent, soft coverages and break downs in coverage but -insert ridiculous Tebow rhetoric-".

Receivers were getting passes to the sideline because everybody dropped 15 deep at the snap.......

[Simple Jaded]

I swear...some of our fans....

After the last few years I promised myself to simply enjoy winning and not take good times for granted. Screw the amateur-hour analysis by people hoping players on their favorite damned team fails.

What makes you think they're not enjoying the wins?.......

[Northman]

Brees won against the prevent today, Yates won against the prevent today. But no, Tebow wins playing against it and its a bad thing. LMAO

I agree Mike, some of our fans are ******* stupid beyond belief.

[Northman]

What makes you think they're not enjoying the wins?.......

Your incessant bitching and moaning.

[TXBRONC]

This - and now its time for McCoy to take off the training wheels. We are doing it more, but not enough, and too predictably. I still want us a run heavy team, but more play action would be nice. Tebow is throwing pretty damned accurately for the most part now.

Tebow attempted 13 or so passes in the first half of the game. I thought that was pretty good as the number of attempts.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

He said the Bears are gonna sit back and let the Broncos have whatever they want underneath, that is prevent. Dilfer said "We can talk about prevent, soft coverages and break downs in coverage but -insert ridiculous Tebow rhetoric-".

Receivers were getting passes to the sideline because everybody dropped 15 deep at the snap.......

So, all of those 10 yard sideline curl routes worked because the CBs were playing really far off? Not really. If that was the case the CBs could've easily read the play and broke on the ball causing incompletions and an INT because their eyes would've still be on the WR and QB. Those routes work because the WRs sprint at the CB looking like they are going deep and then the second the CB flips his hips to run with the WR, the WR breaks off his route and comes back to the ball. Were they giving some cushion? Yep, but it was to prevent our WRs from blowing by them into that sideline zone between the CB and the Safety that exists in Cover 2.

The Tampa 2 is a deep zone coverage scheme. Typically, the Safeties stay deep and the MLB also drops into a deep middle zone to keep everything in front of him. It doesn't work with a mobile QB who can avoid the rush and get out of the pocket to buy time for his WRs to find soft spots in the zone.

[wayninja]

What makes you think they're not enjoying the wins?.......

The constant qualification of wins designed to denigrate or otherwise diminish a specific key position in that win.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Your incessant bitching and moaning.

And constantly grasping at straws for why Tebow and the Broncos are "lucky" as if the other team just forfeits the game with a lead in the 4th quarter or stops playing out there, or even puts in their backups with a 3-7 point lead. Nobody does that.

We're beating teams late in games because we believe we can win more than they believe they can stop us. We play for 60 minutes (sometimes more) and don't quit until the game is actually over. How many teams can say that?

What I love the most is how many players talk shit before they play us but then come out after they lose and are now "believers". Not just in Tebow, but in the Broncos as a whole. Weddle, Revis, Jason Taylor, Dansby, Jared Allen, (and I'm sure sometime this week Peppers or Urlacher will be asked) have all come out and publicly praised (after losing to them, of course) Tebow and the Broncos for being for real. Yet, there's always someone the upcoming week who talks about how the Broncos offense sucks and/or Tebow sucks. Nobody believes it until it happens to them. By the end of the year, everyone will believe, even Tom Brady...

[Simple Jaded]

Your incessant bitching and moaning.

Please, if anything it's ya'll that are bitching and moaning. "OMFG! Somebody is not kissing Tebow's ass! He's not a Real Fan".......

[Simple Jaded]

The constant qualification of wins designed to denigrate or otherwise diminish a specific key position in that win.

That's not much of a reason, trust me, l enjoy the wins every bit as much as you do.

That's the beauty of being objective, l get the best of all worlds.......

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Please, if anything it's ya'll that are bitching and moaning. "OMFG! Somebody is not kissing Tebow's ass! He's not a Real Fan".......

Nobody here is saying that, but the fact that you seem somehow disturbed or unhappy with the fact that we're winning football games because of the guy taking snaps is just sad and shallow... and it shows your true colors which obviously aren't orange and blue...

[Simple Jaded]

And constantly grasping at straws for why Tebow and the Broncos are "lucky" as if the other team just forfeits the game with a lead in the 4th quarter or stops playing out there, or even puts in their backups with a 3-7 point lead. Nobody does that.

We're beating teams late in games because we believe we can win more than they believe they can stop us. We play for 60 minutes (sometimes more) and don't quit until the game is actually over. How many teams can say that?

What I love the most is how many players talk shit before they play us but then come out after they lose and are now "believers". Not just in Tebow, but in the Broncos as a whole. Weddle, Revis, Jason Taylor, Dansby, Jared Allen, (and I'm sure sometime this week Peppers or Urlacher will be asked) have all come out and publicly praised (after losing to them, of course) Tebow and the Broncos for being for real. Yet, there's always someone the upcoming week who talks about how the Broncos offense sucks and/or Tebow sucks. Nobody believes it until it happens to them. By the end of the year, everyone will believe, even Tom Brady...

You honestly don't think the Broncos are lucky? There isn't a luckier team going right now.

Look at how many teams have lost their MVP and/or starting QB or get to play Sunday night on the east coast and then get on a plane and go to play Thursday, or how many teams lose their entire left side of their OL.......now tell me how many of those teams played the Broncos soon after. The Broncos won a game where they scored one TD all game long after the offense recovered a fumble that the defense lost after they recovered a fumble on a 3rd-and-long. They won tonight after a 220lb beast of a RB ran out of bounds to avoid contact when all the Bears had to do was kneel on the ball.

The Broncos needed every second on the clock to beat these teams. You are flatout ******* kidding yourself if you don't "believe" that the Broncos are lucky.

They're also pretty frekking good too.......

[Simple Jaded]

Nobody here is saying that, but the fact that you seem somehow disturbed or unhappy with the fact that we're winning football games because of the guy taking snaps is just sad and shallow... and it shows your true colors which obviously aren't orange and blue...

Dude, trust me, don't mistake these discussion for anything more than a simple debate.......

[wayninja]

You honestly don't think the Broncos are lucky? There isn't a luckier team going right now.

They're also pretty frekking good too.......

Lucky and good. Seems potent.

[Day1BroncoFan]

I'm glad I can just enjoy the wins and not analyze it to death.

If they can prevent us from winning let it be so otherwise it won't be so.

:elefant:

[Denver Tebows]

I've always felt other teams get tired by the fourth and Tebow just outruns them

[dunk7]

You honestly don't think the Broncos are lucky? There isn't a luckier team going right now.

Look at how many teams have lost their MVP and/or starting QB or get to play Sunday night on the east coast and then get on a plane and go to play Thursday, or how many teams lose their entire left side of their OL.......now tell me how many of those teams played the Broncos soon after. The Broncos won a game where they scored one TD all game long after the offense recovered a fumble that the defense lost after they recovered a fumble on a 3rd-and-long. They won tonight after a 220lb beast of a RB ran out of bounds to avoid contact when all the Bears had to do was kneel on the ball.

The Broncos needed every second on the clock to beat these teams. You are flatout ******* kidding yourself if you don't "believe" that the Broncos are lucky.

They're also pretty frekking good too.......

Nailing a 59 yard FG has roughly a 5% probability. Got to admit Horseman, that's a little lucky. ;)

[BroncoWave]

Nailing a 59 yard FG has roughly a 5% probability. Got to admit Horseman, that's a little lucky. ;)

With Prater that's closer to 20-30% IMO. He easily has the leg and rarely misses from 50+.

[wayninja]

Nailing a 59 yard FG has roughly a 5% probability. Got to admit Horseman, that's a little lucky. ;)

That bit of 'luck' has nothing on the Marion Barber fumble. Nothing.

[BroncoWave]

That bit of 'luck' has nothing on the Marion Barber fumble. Nothing.

Wesley Woodyard reached in and stripped it. That was a great play. It's not like Barber just dropped it.

[wayninja]

Wesley Woodyard reached in and stripped it. That was a great play. It's not like Barber just dropped it.

I'm not discounting the fact that a play was made. Still pretty damn improbable. I don't know the stats, but my gut tells me that the odds are way less than 5%.

[BroncoWave]

I'm not discounting the fact that a play was made. Still pretty damn improbable.

Agreed, but it seems like we keep making those improbable plays every week. Really makes you believe in destiny.

[wayninja]

Agreed, but it seems like we keep making those improbable plays every week. Really makes you believe in destiny.

Oh, no doubt. The confluence of improbable things that keep stacking up in our favor is getting almost impossible to discount as simply 'luck'. No argument here.

Any pure rationalists will insist that a coincidental series of improbable events happens every now and again and it means nothing. But again, that argument has got to have pure rationalists starting to pull their hair out.

[SM19]

So what you're saying is, either Tebow is clutch and plays well out of the shotgun spread where he can choose to either throw to an open receiver and if it's not there tuck it and run based on what the defense gives him...

...or

Every team in the league that we've played so far has a DC and HC not worth a shit who can't watch film and/or gameplan...

Habits change slowly in the NFL, even in the face of evidence that the habits are counterproductive. In particular, trading space for time when you've got a fourth quarter lead is fundamental doctrine for NFL coaches, and for good reason, as it usually maximizes the team's chance of winning. Coaches, whether they're worth a shit or not, aren't going to throw that out the window because one player won a few games against other teams, especially when they have reason to believe that player just got lucky. In the short term, they're going to believe that things will be different when it's their team on the field.

But like I said, that doesn't have to be all of it. The qualities of Tebow's game that you described likely make him especially well-suited to play against soft defenses. His mobility means that rushers have to exercise caution and can't go straight at him, and that he can escape when they get close. Both of those allow him to extend the play and take more time to throw, and he has the patience to wait for the coverage to break down once he's bought that time. In addition, I suggested that Denver could be changing up the play-calling late in the game (which, of course, is not a new theory). If the late-game calls are dramatically different from those made the rest of the game, that would also explain a lot.

But if the best explanation for what Tim Tebow is doing is that he's the first truly clutch quarterback in league history, then I'm going to remain skeptical for awhile. Experience tells us that quarterbacks who appear to raise their level of play at big moments eventually see their performance in those situations come into line with their performance the rest of the game. Maybe I'm wrong, and Tim Tebow is a completely new thing. But as a simple matter of sample size, it's going to take more games to prove it.

[Dapper Dan]

I don't know if someone else noted this. But Fox said that the Bears went into their prevent Cover 2 and didn't stay in it very long.

[FlyByU]

It'd be nice if Tebow could manage during the first three quarters to put up some points so that this conversation would never happen.

Lots of dropped passes don't help scoring in the first 3qtrs of a game.

Besides we cannot win until we are behind and have you say its over and no way we can win and you are leaving because every-time you do we win LOL.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

But if the best explanation for what Tim Tebow is doing is that he's the first truly clutch quarterback in league history, then I'm going to remain skeptical for awhile. Experience tells us that quarterbacks who appear to raise their level of play at big moments eventually see their performance in those situations come into line with their performance the rest of the game. Maybe I'm wrong, and Tim Tebow is a completely new thing. But as a simple matter of sample size, it's going to take more games to prove it.

I don't think anyone's saying he's the first truly clutch QB. Guys like Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, and Eli Manning have all played extremely clutch at times this year. Tebow is clutch. 5 come from behind wins in his 7 starts this year prove that. It's not luck, it's not fixed, it's just a matter of him (and the rest of the team) doing what it takes when the chips are down.

What people still fail to recognize and understand is that we're one of the youngest teams in the league - especially on offense. We're learning as we go. Tebow is a second year QB. His top 2 WRs are second year guys. 3/5 O-linemen are first or second year guys. These things are normally excuses for why teams don't win games in crunch time. Instead, this team is defying the odds and beating more experienced and even arguably "better" (talent wise) teams late in games. That is truly phenomenal.

It isn't like Tebow is standing behind a pro-bowl caliber/veteran O-line throwing passes to Andre Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald and handing off the ball to Adrian Peterson and CJ2K. Other than Tebow and McGahee, I'd bet most fans of other teams can't even name any other players on our offense unless they have Eric Decker on their fantasy team.

The fact that we're playing this well, late in games, while still being this young and inexperienced, bodes well for the future. If we can keep this core of players intact, can you imagine what we could look like in 2-3 years? How great would it be if we played like we did in the 4th quarter for the whole game?

[TT15Superman]

Nobody here is saying that, but the fact that you seem somehow disturbed or unhappy with the fact that we're winning football games because of the guy taking snaps is just sad and shallow... and it shows your true colors which obviously aren't orange and blue...
Agreed!

Calling you out!


It'd be nice if Tebow could manage during the first three quarters to put up some points so that this conversation would never happen.Yeah, bad 3rd down conversion rate and play calling. However, dropped passes and blocked FGs don't help.


Tebow chews up prevent. The problem for opposing defenses is that he plays so poorly during regulation that they get sloppy when playing prevent and it really surprises them.Really? At least 4 passes were dropped. He was 9 of 9 in the last two drives. or something like 18-24 (75% comp%)


]They showed about 2-3 inches of overthrow[/COLOR]. At that distance it's still a marksman's shot. Hit DT in the palms though, that should have been a TD, no question.DT slowed down or misread the right to left fade from left handed QBs. Perfect pass.


Was Tebow perfect for 60 minutes? Nope, but neither was all segments of the team. However, the WHOLE team stepped it up when it counted. Receivers making catches. Tebow throwing spirals. D causing fumbles. Special Teams kicking FGs.

[pikkiwoki]

To say the Bears or the Vikings played "prevent" defense the past 2 weeks is just wrong. Nobody was playing "prevent". They were playing cover 2 like they usually do in their base formation. Yeah, their Safeties were a little deeper than usual to prevent the big play, but they were still rushing 4 guys on every down and dropping 7 into coverage with 2 deep Safeties - hence, Cover 2. Don't confuse the Bears or Vikings Tampa 2 with a prevent because they keep their Safeties deep. They were playing a conservative Cover 2 "off" but it was Cover 2 nonetheless.

What else are they going to do, blitz? Tebow showed the Jets that blitzing him when he's running the 2 minute drill out of the shotgun spread is a bad idea. What other scheme were they going to run? You'll know when it's "prevent" because there will normally be only 3 D-linemen on the field and the rest are usually D-backs (that you normally won't see on the screen anywhere near the LOS) with maybe one LB and they will play deep Cover 4 with 4 underneath cover guys and 4 guys over the top.

Here's that 19-yard pass down the middle to Willis. Tim Hasselbeck diagrams the play and says the Bears were in Tampa 2 (Skip to 4:13):
https://www.4shared.com/video/iMInXTzn/121211_Primetime.html


On the 19-yard pass to Willis on the right sideline that set up the tying FG, the Bears ran a zone blitz, with Urlacher getting to Tebow a split second too late. Eric Mangini diagrams the play (Skip to to 2:30):
https://www.4shared.com/video/es3RUcJC/121211_First_Take_2.html


And finally we have one of the most vocal Tebow critics around in Tom Waddle lamenting the fact that Tebow's success happened when the Bears switched from Cover 1 to Cover 2 in the second half of the 4th Q (Skip to 1:50)
http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d82506b54/Tebow-s-magic-running-empty


Like you said, there was no prevent D.

[wayninja]

Here's that 19-yard pass down the middle to Willis. Tim Hasselbeck diagrams the play and says the Bears were in Tampa 2 (Skip to 4:13):
https://www.4shared.com/video/iMInXTzn/121211_Primetime.html


On the 19-yard pass to Willis on the right sideline that set up the tying FG, the Bears ran a zone blitz, with Urlacher getting to Tebow a split second too late. Eric Mangini diagrams the play (Skip to to 2:30):
https://www.4shared.com/video/es3RUcJC/121211_First_Take_2.html


And finally we have one of the most vocal Tebow critics around in Tom Waddle lamenting the fact that Tebow's success happened when the Bears switched from Cover 1 to Cover 2 in the second half of the 4th Q (Skip to 1:50)
http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d82506b54/Tebow-s-magic-running-empty


Like you said, there was no prevent D.

This is basically just wordplay. They were playing so soft that I don't really understand the practical distinction between this and prevent. Their safeties weren't 'a little deeper', they were 25 yards down the field. So, ok, semantically, it wasn't prevent, but hitting a short over the middle route was just as easy as if it were prevent. They were NOT playing like this before the 4th quarter with a lead. And before they did this, we have very limited success passing (barring dropped passes).

[bcbronc]

This is basically just wordplay. They were playing so soft that I don't really understand the practical distinction between this and prevent. Their safeties weren't 'a little deeper', they were 25 yards down the field. So, ok, semantically, it wasn't prevent, but hitting a short over the middle route was just as easy as if it were prevent. They were NOT playing like this before the 4th quarter with a lead. And before they did this, we have very limited success passing (barring dropped passes).

the distinction between this and prevent is prevent "technically speaking" only has three pass rushers with 8 dropping into coverage. Because the Bears always rushed four, they never technically played a prevent defense. They did drop everyone into deep zones and didn't contest the underneath stuff, which is what most people mean when they say "prevent".

[wayninja]

the distinction between this and prevent is prevent "technically speaking" only has three pass rushers with 8 dropping into coverage. Because the Bears always rushed four, they never technically played a prevent defense. They did drop everyone into deep zones and didn't contest the underneath stuff, which is what most people mean when they say "prevent".

No argument here. But this unwillingness to contest the middle like they had done previously in the game is exactly the point people are trying to make. Calling it prevent, while technically inaccurate for the reasons mentioned, doesn't make it any different in actual practice. Opening up the middle, for whatever fancy name is given to it, is directly proportional to the success Tebow usually enjoys come 'Tebow Time'.

[VonSackemMiller]

if thats the case then nfl teams are stupid for using the prevent defense in the 4th vs tebow huh? nah i dont think nfl teams are that stupid to lose on purpose. And the beaplrs wasnt playing prevent outside of a couple plays. then they went back to there cover 2/3 and even blitzed

[wayninja]

if thats the case then nfl teams are stupid for using the prevent defense in the 4th vs tebow huh? nah i dont think nfl teams are that stupid to lose on purpose. And the beaplrs wasnt playing prevent outside of a couple plays. then they went back to there cover 2/3 and even blitzed

Yes. They are sorta stupid. It's burned lots of teams so far. It would seem to be a far better strategy to play like you had the 3 quarters he was shut down. Also, I don't think the goal of playing 'prevent' is to lose on purpose, so not sure where you are going with that.

Beyond that, I've exhausted the semantic 'prevent' argument and have no wish to argue football jargon semantics. The difference in how the Defense has played late in 4th quarters vs Tebow is obvious regardless of nomenclature.

[bcbronc]

No argument here. But this unwillingness to contest the middle like they had done previously in the game is exactly the point people are trying to make. Calling it prevent, while technically inaccurate for the reasons mentioned, doesn't make it any different in actual practice. Opening up the middle, for whatever fancy name is given to it, is directly proportional to the success Tebow usually enjoys come 'Tebow Time'.

Agree completely. Look at the touchdown drive for example, don't know exactly what Tebow's numbers were for that drive, but most of the passing yards were simple dump downs to RBs out of the back field. They'd gain a good 15 yards before the first defender got to them. That doesn't happen if they weren't dropping all 7 defenders so deep.

Full credit to Tebow for having the patience to work the underneath stuff and not try to force anything down field. But definitely the fact DCs become overly cautious in their playcalling works right into Tebow's hands. Hopefully they don't figure that out anytime soon. ;)

[VonSackemMiller]

Well i dont buy this either way because tebow was throwing strikes on the Bears regular defense throughout the game and our WRs failed badly on a touchdown bomb and other crucial drive extending drops. we was able to get guys open and make some plays but decker and bay bay dropped the ball. when they started catching the ball is when we actually got all the way down the field and got some points.

[wayninja]

Well i dont buy this either way because tebow was throwing strikes on the Bears regular defense throughout the game and our WRs failed badly on a touchdown bomb and other crucial drive extending drops. we was able to get guys open and make some plays but decker and bay bay dropped the ball. when they started catching the ball is when we actually got all the way down the field and got some points.

Yeah, that's true. I don't deny our receivers dropped lots of passes making his 3/16 statline that's getting bandied about very misleading. But still, even if he's 8/16, that's still not nearly as impressive as what he did in the 4th quarter when the Bears played soft. I think he was 75% in the 4th quarter passing and he threw several balls away, where he hadn't really done that prior.

[Joel]

the distinction between this and prevent is prevent "technically speaking" only has three pass rushers with 8 dropping into coverage. Because the Bears always rushed four, they never technically played a prevent defense. They did drop everyone into deep zones and didn't contest the underneath stuff, which is what most people mean when they say "prevent".
Most people say, "America" when they really mean "the US" and "England" when they really mean "the UK," too, but no one would excuse denying the distinction. ;)

Prevent isn't a formation, it's a philosophy and style. As long as everyone else is 20+ yards deep it can be done with four down linemen or three, and most teams do both when appropriate (or they think it is.) Technically it could be done with as few as three or four guys deep, it just wouldn't be very effective, because the idea is to have overlapping zones and multiple defenders converging on the ball wherever it goes. That makes prevent very effective when executed in the right way at the right time, which is why teams keep using it. Unfortunately, it fails utterly when defences violate any or all of prevents four principles:

1) Don't give up a score, 2) don't give up a deep pass 3) don't give up a sideline route and, perhaps most importantly, 4) don't go into it too early.

It's only viable if leaking yardage in 10-15 yard chunks won't put them on your goal line (or behind it) with time left; prevent is not some magical incantation that wins games simply by being performed: Even when done at the proper time, it still has to be executed properly or it's as useless as any other poorly executed strategy. The Bears let us catch sideline passes WAY too much. The Vikings and Dolphins let us go deep WAY too much.

Thing is though, prevent works (or doesn't) like any other defensive philosophy: The only way to beat it is by doing the specific things it is designed to stop. So saying, "Well, he only won all those games because he completed deep, sideline and/or scoring passes when the other team had 7 (or 8) guys in coverage guarding against those very things," is a bit absurd. That's like saying the Allies only liberated France because they stormed the beaches through machine gun and artillery fire at Normandy then blitzed their way across half a continent. Oh, gee, is THAT all? Makes you wonder why they teach us about in school. :tongue:

We set up in an offense designed to do a few very specific things because we knew we had no choice; they set up in a defence designed to "prevent" those same things because they knew it, too. We accomplished the specific things they specifically tried to prevent, and won. That's not either team being any stupider or luckier than most, it's teams that outplayed us for most of the game getting outplayed a LOT at the end. To the extent it's about anything but talent and skill it's about young players with a startling amount of discipline to finish games against older and more experienced players who ought to know they haven't won till the gun sounds.

[karnage]

Yes. They are sorta stupid. It's burned lots of teams so far. It would seem to be a far better strategy to play like you had the 3 quarters he was shut down. Also, I don't think the goal of playing 'prevent' is to lose on purpose, so not sure where you are going with that.

Beyond that, I've exhausted the semantic 'prevent' argument and have no wish to argue football jargon semantics. The difference in how the Defense has played late in 4th quarters vs Tebow is obvious regardless of nomenclature.

Lot's of teams do this with a 2+ score lead...as it's essentially running the ball on defense...concede a short gain,converge on the ball, and run clock....

They played nothing close to this on the final drive nor in overtime..... on the drive before they left the middle open, and played to prevent a quick strike....

Denver's receivers did manage to get behind the Bears CB's quite a bit...they just didn't catch the ball....

The Bears D did exactly what they wanted to...the only issue was their Offense couldn't close the game out....to run out the clock or to finish the game in OT...

and analysts bringing this up does a huge to disservice to the fact that Denver left at least 10 points on the board between the blocked field goal, and the dropped TD pass from Thomas...and honestly if the receivers were hanging onto balls earlier, Denver could have forced the Bears out of their run game and put the ball into Hanie's hands which has shown to be very turnover prone...

I would say IMHO that Denver shot themselves in the foot far more than the Bears D actually stopped them outside of McGahee getting stuffed....

[NightTerror218]

It'd be nice if Tebow could manage during the first three quarters to put up some points so that this conversation would never happen.

I think if we had a competent OC, who can actually come up with a game plan, rather then having to do it at half time (as Fox said, some like "We dont know how teams will defend us and at half time we make changes").

And last sunday it was not his fault for dropped passes that would have been 1st downs.

[Canmore]

I think if we had a competent OC, who can actually come up with a game plan, rather then having to do it at half time (as Fox said, some like "We dont know how teams will defend us and at half time we make changes").

And last sunday it was not his fault for dropped passes that would have been 1st downs.

As little as we pass and the situations we are in when we pass, make the drops even more problematic. Against New England, it is doubtful we can survive dropping six balls. Tebow has to be on and the receivers have to catch the ball.

[NightTerror218]

As little as we pass and the situations we are in when we pass, make the drops even more problematic. Against New England, it is doubtful we can survive dropping six balls. Tebow has to be on and the receivers have to catch the ball.

I was reading something that the CBs NE actually have were originally WRs (ready something Teddy Bruschi said about it). But against NE we have to be firing on all cylinders in every aspect of the game. Offense needs to score points, defense needs to slow them down and pressure Brady hard, and STs needs to keep it up and if we can get Brady within his own 5 yard line that will help slow them.

[Ravage!!!]

To say the Bears or the Vikings played "prevent" defense the past 2 weeks is just wrong. Nobody was playing "prevent". They were playing cover 2 like they usually do in their base formation. Yeah, their Safeties were a little deeper than usual to prevent the big play, but they were still rushing 4 guys on every down and dropping 7 into coverage with 2 deep Safeties - hence, Cover 2. Don't confuse the Bears or Vikings Tampa 2 with a prevent because they keep their Safeties deep. They were playing a conservative Cover 2 "off" but it was Cover 2 nonetheless.


Sorry Horse, but this is just wrong. You are a favorite poster, but the defending that Tebow isn't excelling against the prevent is just...well.... incorrect.

They broke down the game film on NFL 32 the other night, and not only did the Bears go into prevent, they REALLY went into prevent. There was absolutely no dobut about it.

PLUS.. they showed that Tebow has face the prevent defense 40% more than ANY OTHER QB in the NFL. Now obviously that has a lot to do with the fact that Denver is always behind in the 4th quarter.

But to say that Tebow isn't going against the prevent is not only wrong, its VERY wrong. Against the Bears he completed 3 passes in 3 quarters. The Bears were then set on letting him complete the passes underneath and take their chances with what they say as very inaccurate passing. It was their mistake.

[Ravage!!!]

All QBs have to deal with dropped passes. Did you guys see the NYG vs Dallas game? Eli has to deal with drops. But few will go 11 incompletions in a row. Lets be honest and just admit that Tebow has a Loooooong ways to go with his passing. Sure he had some drops, thats part of the NFL that every QB has to deal with. But thats not the reason he's only completing 3 passes in 3 quarters.

[LordTrychon]

I hear that 'prevent' defenses have actually been around for some time, and Tebow's not the first QB to face one.

Turns out ALL NFL QBs have to deal with them at some point or another....

Huh. Go figure.

[Ravage!!!]

I hear that 'prevent' defenses have actually been around for some time, and Tebow's not the first QB to face one.

Turns out ALL NFL QBs have to deal with them at some point or another....

Huh. Go figure.

Of course. I don 't think thats been the discussion. I think some where saying that he's not facing them, and isn't completing the passes in the 4th quarter (mainly) because of them.

[Cugel]

But to say that Tebow isn't going against the prevent is not only wrong, its VERY wrong. Against the Bears he completed 3 passes in 3 quarters. The Bears were then set on letting him complete the passes underneath and take their chances with what they say as very inaccurate passing. It was their mistake.

At some point teams are going to have to admit that the prevent defense isn't working against Tebow. When he gets rolling the whole team starts to think they can keep scoring. The defense gets hyped up. It's just idiotic for these teams to change up their defense to give Tebow a chance.

Then teams are going to start using their normal defense and go with what has been working the last 3 quarters.

I think the only team that DIDN'T try the idiotic "prevent" defense was the Lions and it worked.

[LordTrychon]

Of course. I don 't think thats been the discussion. I think some where saying that he's not facing them, and isn't completing the passes in the 4th quarter (mainly) because of them.

I know, Rav... and I wasn't really picking on you.

Just something that hit me earlier.

People like to discount the fact that Tebow's dealing with some serious dropsies (he is) because all QBs deal with it. In my mind, if you're going to scrutinize whether or not he's getting the balls to the WRs, you need to look at whether he's delivering them the balls or not. Yes, every QB deals with drops, but YES, Tebow's also got more than 3 out of 15 balls to his WRs in the first 3 quarters on Sunday, too.

Yes, Tebow has faced more prevent or prevent-like defenses than any other QB this year... but nobody makes the same argument the other way... Any qb who's trying to come back into a game at the end is going to face prevent defenses.

While Tebow may have faced them more, he's yet to fail to beat it once in the games he's faced it. Their mistake, I guess.

And even though EVERY QB deals with drops, Tebow's been dealing with them MORE (just like the prevent!). We're at 30/32 in the NFL in drops right now. Despite passing less than any other team, and despite the fact that those numbers actually include time when Orton was here, and so was Lloyd. We've been dropping. We were 26th a few weeks back, if I recall correctly.

It is what it is... I think those two balance out a little bit. It's a matter of opinion as to how much, I guess.

[catfish]

All QBs have to deal with dropped passes. Did you guys see the NYG vs Dallas game? Eli has to deal with drops. But few will go 11 incompletions in a row. Lets be honest and just admit that Tebow has a Loooooong ways to go with his passing. Sure he had some drops, thats part of the NFL that every QB has to deal with. But thats not the reason he's only completing 3 passes in 3 quarters.

to look at it realistically both teams show 24 drops for the year, NY has thrown the ball 489 times(5%), Denver 353(7%) times

edit: there are 2 teams with a higher drop percentage....the browns and the niners

[Joel]

I think if we had a competent OC, who can actually come up with a game plan, rather then having to do it at half time (as Fox said, some like "We dont know how teams will defend us and at half time we make changes").

And last sunday it was not his fault for dropped passes that would have been 1st downs.
That really is inexcusable, hearing Fox say we have to wait until we see how defences will "attack" us (he actually said, "attack.") I know people talk about "attacking defences" just like they do "prevent defences," but, really, that's not how it works: OFFENCES attack and DEFENCES DEFEND. Hence the names.

I half expect Fox to think like that; he's a defensive coach, so he's used to reacting rather than acting, since that's what offense forces defence to do. However, a passive DEFENSIVE offense that telgraphs its plays and lets defences set tempo is setting itself up to fail, and McCoy or any OC should know that.

Offense always has the initiative and thus the advantage in football IF it keeps the D guessing where, when and how it will concentrate its forces to penetrate. When offenses cede all those things to defence the advantage shifts the other way, because then defence can concentrate all ITS force at the point they know will be attacked, needing only preserve the general status quo. That was true even a century ago when 6-0 scores were common and EVERY game was a battle of field position: Teams scored rarely and punted often, but those who managed just one or two first downs on most drives eventually got close enough for their kickers to win.

Properly executed prevent usually works for the same reason Martyball usually fails: Because defences usually stop plays they know are coming. Running OR passing all the time makes the defences task much easier, and thus the offenses much harder. However we do it, we need an offensive game plan that plays by its own rules, not those of its opponents, because all good offenses do: That's their job.

On the subject of drops and prevent:

As LT notes, just as all QBs must deal with drops, all QBs "get" to deal with prevent. At the end of the day, what matters is for Tebow or any player is not what they've got, but what they do with it, and the story of Denvers season has been that Tebow consistently does a LOT with very little. When we're really talking about when we discuss his "competitiveness" and "belief."

All QBs have the dubious benefit of facing prevent when down two scores in the final minutes, but Tebow doesn't just rack up completions and yards, he get points, often multiple times. That means he's beating prevent at its own game; it's not much of a slight to say he passes better when defences drop 7 or 8 guys in coverage to stop long, sideline and/or scoring passes that he completes anyway. He passes best when it's most difficult to pass? Wow, what a bum. :tongue:

Meanwhile, if drops aren't an excuse, they are a factor, and while people sneer at Tebows completion percentage through the first three quarters Sunday they should bear in mind that 3/16 magically becomes 9/16 without a half dozen drops. Guess what: That's 56.25% completions, maybe not stellar, but quite respectable, and enough to put that game comfortably out of reach if our receivers just do their job catch balls dropped in their laps (especially if our line doesn't let three different Bears come through the middle of the line to block a FG, which also wasn't Tebows fault.) The other 7 incompletes are on Tebow for not being close enough on target or throwing it away to avoid a sack when he failed to find an open man, but on nearly as many plays he did all that can be expected of any QB: He put the ball right where it had to be so the receivers had an easy catch and the defenders had no play. What more can he, Peyton Manning or anyone do?

[wayninja]

All QBs have to deal with dropped passes. Did you guys see the NYG vs Dallas game? Eli has to deal with drops. But few will go 11 incompletions in a row. Lets be honest and just admit that Tebow has a Loooooong ways to go with his passing. Sure he had some drops, thats part of the NFL that every QB has to deal with. But thats not the reason he's only completing 3 passes in 3 quarters.

6 dropped passes in the first 18 attempts is not just 'dealing with drops', that's a completely new level of bad. To dismiss it as 'well, it happens to everyone'... um, no it doesn't. It's really, really bad and it's getting a bit irritating how this is being ignored. It's not like this is the first game where we've had a REALLY high number of dropped passes. It's not a fluke, our receivers, while coming through in the clutch, are just as much, if not more, to blame for our lack of production in the first 3 Quarters.

[pikkiwoki]

Brian Billick diagrams the 19-yard pass to Matt Willis in the middle of the field against the Tampa-2 defense, on the Broncos' touchdown drive vs. Da Bears.

(Skip to 0:45)
http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d8251c29d/Tools-for-Victory-Tebow-s-pass-protection

[Locnar]

All QBs have to deal with dropped passes. Did you guys see the NYG vs Dallas game? Eli has to deal with drops. But few will go 11 incompletions in a row. Lets be honest and just admit that Tebow has a Loooooong ways to go with his passing. Sure he had some drops, thats part of the NFL that every QB has to deal with. But thats not the reason he's only completing 3 passes in 3 quarters.

If I remember correctly, a few of those passes were throw aways too. I'd rather have throw aways than him forcing it in there and getting intercepted. He also isn't throwing a lot of check down passes early on that help his completion %. But hopefully that changes..