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Broncos Mtnman
01-30-2009, 04:36 PM
Sure Jake. Shanny was the WHOLE problem. As I look at your performance at the QB position, it would seem to me that the only success you ever had as an NFL QB was when Shanny was your boss.

But hey, it's always someone else's fault with you, isn't it?

:coffee:

_________________________________________

Plummer: Shanny firing "was past due"

Former QB's blunt views on the dismissal of his former head coach center on a style that "wasn't motivating."
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post

TAMPA, Fla. — Not all of Mike Shanahan's former quarterbacks were disappointed to see him get fired as the Broncos' coach.

"I thought it was past due," Jake Plummer said in a telephone interview Thursday. "I think he had done what he could do and was just tapped out as far as his coaching style wasn't motivating guys anymore."

One of Plummer's former teams is here preparing for Super Bowl XLIII. Who would have guessed two years ago, when Plummer retired at the relatively young age of 32, that it would be the Arizona Cardinals and not the Broncos?

"You think the Cardinals have been perfect to get there?" Plummer said. "They've scrapped and clawed and they're standing now on the verge of a very historic moment."

The Broncos finished this past season 8-8 and missed the playoffs. The Cardinals finished their regular season 9-7 and are 60 minutes away from a world championship.
It can be razor-thin, the difference between success and failure. It's a line Plummer believes Shanahan found difficult to straddle.

Plummer was the Broncos' quarterback from 2003 until he was replaced 12 games into the 2006 season by a rookie named Jay Cutler. Speaking not out of bitterness but in his relaxed, if straightforward, manner in a telephone interview from his home in Sandpoint, Idaho, Plummer indicated Shanahan seemed to become increasingly obsessed with the Broncos' NFL rank in offense or defense instead of the win-loss record.

"It's hard on a team. We were 7-2 at one point my last year and we came out of a meeting with our heads bowed and we were all just sulking around like we had just been berated for not putting up 40 points, for not leading the league in offense, for not creating enough turnovers," Plummer said.

"It was a weird style to be coached that way. It really took it out of you as a player. I've been on 2-7 teams that had better attitudes coming out of team meetings than oftentimes when we came out of team meetings after Shanahan felt a need to motivate us even more."

To be fair to Shanahan, others of his former players did not feel that way. Cutler was upset when Broncos owner Pat Bowlen fired Shana-han two days after the 2008 season, and he said so publicly. And Plummer admits his personal relationship with Shanahan began to deteriorate after the Broncos' home loss in the 2005 AFC championship game and was compounded by a miscommunication regarding an offseason workout. Plummer thought he had cleared missing a week of offseason conditioning with an assistant coach only to learn later Shanahan was not informed.

Soon after, the Broncos traded up in the first round to select Cutler with the No. 11 pick in the 2006 draft. From then on, Shanahan seemed to be looking for reasons to replace Plummer with the rocket-armed Cutler.

The Broncos were 40-18 with Plummer as their starting quarterback. While everyone acknowledges Cutler is a far more talented passer, he is only 17-20 as a starter.

"He's a great quarterback, don't get me wrong," Plummer said. "I'm not saying anything to disrespect him. I think he's a helluva player. But Jeff George was a helluva player. There's a lot of guys who have been great players."

George had a long NFL career but was criticized for not winning more games.

Plummer said Cutler has a chance to become a star now that former New England offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels has replaced Shana-han as head coach.

"I think it's a real smart move," Plummer said. "There's a lot of young coaches that are coming out of situations where they're coordinators for great coaches and going out on their own and really establishing themselves. He is young, but he's got to bring a lot of life and energy to coaching, which I'm sure will be good for that organization."

Let others question Bowlen's wisdom for hiring a 32-year-old as head coach. Plummer's not among them.

"At that level, there's mutual respect," Plummer said. "There should be mutual respect between coach and player and player and coach. Some coaches can accomplish that while staying in charge, but others, if they can't do it naturally, they do it with an iron fist or engulfing you in a way that didn't feel right. I think that's what happened to Shanahan. He just tried so hard and pushed so hard that nothing was good enough. Nothing."

claymore
01-30-2009, 04:40 PM
I said it in another thread, but I see Jakes point. Dont like the guy, but I think it was time for Mike to go.

I needed Mike to get fired, before I could see that though.

Plummer is still a Douche bag though. :D

TXBRONC
01-30-2009, 04:45 PM
Sure Jake. Shanny was the WHOLE problem. As I look at your performance at the QB position, it would seem to me that the only success you ever had as an NFL QB was when Shanny was your boss.

But hey, it's always someone else's fault with you, isn't it?

:coffee:

_________________________________________

Plummer: Shanny firing "was past due"

Former QB's blunt views on the dismissal of his former head coach center on a style that "wasn't motivating."
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post

TAMPA, Fla. — Not all of Mike Shanahan's former quarterbacks were disappointed to see him get fired as the Broncos' coach.

"I thought it was past due," Jake Plummer said in a telephone interview Thursday. "I think he had done what he could do and was just tapped out as far as his coaching style wasn't motivating guys anymore."

One of Plummer's former teams is here preparing for Super Bowl XLIII. Who would have guessed two years ago, when Plummer retired at the relatively young age of 32, that it would be the Arizona Cardinals and not the Broncos?

"You think the Cardinals have been perfect to get there?" Plummer said. "They've scrapped and clawed and they're standing now on the verge of a very historic moment."

The Broncos finished this past season 8-8 and missed the playoffs. The Cardinals finished their regular season 9-7 and are 60 minutes away from a world championship.
It can be razor-thin, the difference between success and failure. It's a line Plummer believes Shanahan found difficult to straddle.

Plummer was the Broncos' quarterback from 2003 until he was replaced 12 games into the 2006 season by a rookie named Jay Cutler. Speaking not out of bitterness but in his relaxed, if straightforward, manner in a telephone interview from his home in Sandpoint, Idaho, Plummer indicated Shanahan seemed to become increasingly obsessed with the Broncos' NFL rank in offense or defense instead of the win-loss record.

"It's hard on a team. We were 7-2 at one point my last year and we came out of a meeting with our heads bowed and we were all just sulking around like we had just been berated for not putting up 40 points, for not leading the league in offense, for not creating enough turnovers," Plummer said.

"It was a weird style to be coached that way. It really took it out of you as a player. I've been on 2-7 teams that had better attitudes coming out of team meetings than oftentimes when we came out of team meetings after Shanahan felt a need to motivate us even more."

To be fair to Shanahan, others of his former players did not feel that way. Cutler was upset when Broncos owner Pat Bowlen fired Shana-han two days after the 2008 season, and he said so publicly. And Plummer admits his personal relationship with Shanahan began to deteriorate after the Broncos' home loss in the 2005 AFC championship game and was compounded by a miscommunication regarding an offseason workout. Plummer thought he had cleared missing a week of offseason conditioning with an assistant coach only to learn later Shanahan was not informed.

Soon after, the Broncos traded up in the first round to select Cutler with the No. 11 pick in the 2006 draft. From then on, Shanahan seemed to be looking for reasons to replace Plummer with the rocket-armed Cutler.

The Broncos were 40-18 with Plummer as their starting quarterback. While everyone acknowledges Cutler is a far more talented passer, he is only 17-20 as a starter.

"He's a great quarterback, don't get me wrong," Plummer said. "I'm not saying anything to disrespect him. I think he's a helluva player. But Jeff George was a helluva player. There's a lot of guys who have been great players."

George had a long NFL career but was criticized for not winning more games.

Plummer said Cutler has a chance to become a star now that former New England offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels has replaced Shana-han as head coach.

"I think it's a real smart move," Plummer said. "There's a lot of young coaches that are coming out of situations where they're coordinators for great coaches and going out on their own and really establishing themselves. He is young, but he's got to bring a lot of life and energy to coaching, which I'm sure will be good for that organization."

Let others question Bowlen's wisdom for hiring a 32-year-old as head coach. Plummer's not among them.

"At that level, there's mutual respect," Plummer said. "There should be mutual respect between coach and player and player and coach. Some coaches can accomplish that while staying in charge, but others, if they can't do it naturally, they do it with an iron fist or engulfing you in a way that didn't feel right. I think that's what happened to Shanahan. He just tried so hard and pushed so hard that nothing was good enough. Nothing."

I saw this article this morning and didn't think it was worth the effort to post here because all it does is prove Jake is bitter, and unable own up to his short comings.

Bozo Jr.
01-30-2009, 05:02 PM
I said it in another thread, but I see Jakes point. Dont like the guy, but I think it was time for Mike to go.

I needed Mike to get fired, before I could see that though.

Plummer is still a Douche bag though. :D

A "Douche bag" who helped us get to the playoffs 3 out of 4 seasons. I have no ill will against the man. By the way Jay turns the ball over just as much as Jake did. Give the guy a break.

topscribe
01-30-2009, 05:16 PM
A "Douche bag" who helped us get to the playoffs 3 out of 4 seasons. I have no ill will against the man. By the way Jay turns the ball over just as much as Jake did. Give the guy a break.

I was going to point that out, regarding the playoffs.

But, much as I supported Shanny, I can see his point. Shanny will go on to be
the superlative coach he has always been, but perhaps his story really was a
bit stale here. It happens to the best of them . . .

-----

Poet
01-30-2009, 05:18 PM
He actually played pretty darn well in Arizona considering what he had around him.

Also, Shanahan's firing was past due. Cut it anyway you want to the fact was that he didn't do a whole lot after your superbowls.

dunk7
01-30-2009, 05:41 PM
A "Douche bag" who helped us get to the playoffs 3 out of 4 seasons. I have no ill will against the man. By the way Jay turns the ball over just as much as Jake did. Give the guy a break.

That's like comparing apples and oranges...Jay was usually playing from behind and forced to win the game with his arm whereas Jake was strictly to manage the game and not turn the ball over.

Broncos Mtnman
01-30-2009, 05:59 PM
A "Douche bag" who helped us get to the playoffs 3 out of 4 seasons. I have no ill will against the man. By the way Jay turns the ball over just as much as Jake did. Give the guy a break.

A douche bag that had the benefit of playing on a team with a top-10 defense in points allowed - EVERY SEASON HE WAS HERE!! The defense over Jay's two years as a starter was ranked 28th and 30th in points allowed.

A few more points on your statment about how Jay "turns the ball over just as much...."

Jake had 10 lost fumbles and 47 interceptions over 54 games. That equals 1.05 turnovers per game. He only had 944 pass attempts, which means he had an average of one turnover for every 16.56 attempts.

Jay has had 18 lost fumbles and 37 interceptions over 41 games. That appears worse at a rate of 1.26 turnovers per game, but that's not the whole story. Jay had a total of 1220 pass attempts in his 2+ seasons (far more than Jake had in 3+ seasons). This equals an average of one turnover for every 23.46 attempts (a 30% improvement over Jake).

Oh, a couple more thoughts on this. Jake was a 7th year veteran when he came to Denver. Jay was a rookie when he started near the end of 2006.

Jake managed only ONE Pro Bowl in his career, a feat he didn't reach until he came to Denver to play under Shanahan. It was his 9th year in the league and he was selected after Carson Palmer went down in the playoffs. Jay made it on his own in only his second full season as a starter.

I know the Jake crowd likes to point to the Broncos TEAM record when he was the QB, but leaving out the realities about the defense isn't really being honest about what really happened.

Back on topic, the article shows that Plummer still blames everyone but himself for losing his job. Whether Shanahan treated him fairly or not is open to debate, but Jake LOST his job. It wasn't Shanahan who took it from him.

:coffee:

Northman
01-30-2009, 06:00 PM
By the way Jay turns the ball over just as much as Jake did. Give the guy a break.

Your really not going to use that comparison are you?

Watchthemiddle
01-30-2009, 06:26 PM
STOP THE PRESS!!!

You mean to tell me that there is a NFL player that didn't get along with or like his head coach?

NO WAY!!!! Not in this day.

*sarcasm off*

I do find it strange that we have not been back to the playoffs since Shanny benched Jake. Karma???

:coffee:

Elway said something interesting on the Fan this afternoon when asked by Scott and Al what QB's are most known and remembered for....he said point blank WINNING. I sure would like to win some games Jay.

dogfish
01-30-2009, 06:28 PM
dogfish: "jake plummer is a tool, and a shitty quarterback"

sneakers
01-30-2009, 06:29 PM
Your really not going to use that comparison are you?

Jake Wars!!!!!!

Mike
01-30-2009, 06:30 PM
I do find it strange that we have not been back to the playoffs since Shanny benched Jake. Karma???


Karma? No. _efense.

BeefStew25
01-30-2009, 06:50 PM
Bye Jake. Shower every now and then.

Requiem / The Dagda
01-30-2009, 06:51 PM
Jake got his pink slip today from the Idaho County Special Ed Handball League.

claymore
01-30-2009, 07:09 PM
A douche bag that had the benefit of playing on a team with a top-10 defense in points allowed - EVERY SEASON HE WAS HERE!! The defense over Jay's two years as a starter was ranked 28th and 30th in points allowed.

A few more points on your statment about how Jay "turns the ball over just as much...."

Jake had 10 lost fumbles and 47 interceptions over 54 games. That equals 1.05 turnovers per game. He only had 944 pass attempts, which means he had an average of one turnover for every 16.56 attempts.

Jay has had 18 lost fumbles and 37 interceptions over 41 games. That appears worse at a rate of 1.26 turnovers per game, but that's not the whole story. Jay had a total of 1220 pass attempts in his 2+ seasons (far more than Jake had in 3+ seasons). This equals an average of one turnover for every 23.46 attempts (a 70% improvement over Jake).

Oh, a couple more thoughts on this. Jake was a 7th year veteran when he came to Denver. Jay was a rookie when he started near the end of 2006.

Jake managed only ONE Pro Bowl in his career, a feat he didn't reach until he came to Denver to play under Shanahan. It was his 9th year in the league and he was selected after Carson Palmer went down in the playoffs. Jay made it on his own in only his second full season as a starter.

I know the Jake crowd likes to point to the Broncos TEAM record when he was the QB, but leaving out the realities about the defense isn't really being honest about what really happened.

Back on topic, the article shows that Plummer still blames everyone but himself for losing his job. Whether Shanahan treated him fairly or not is open to debate, but Jake LOST his job. It wasn't Shanahan who took it from him.

:coffee:

Awesome Post. Jake's a douche bag.

Close thread.

Cheez Whiz
01-30-2009, 07:12 PM
eh, he's right.

topscribe
01-30-2009, 07:14 PM
A douche bag that had the benefit of playing on a team with a top-10 defense in points allowed - EVERY SEASON HE WAS HERE!! The defense over Jay's two years as a starter was ranked 28th and 30th in points allowed.

A few more points on your statment about how Jay "turns the ball over just as much...."

Jake had 10 lost fumbles and 47 interceptions over 54 games. That equals 1.05 turnovers per game. He only had 944 pass attempts, which means he had an average of one turnover for every 16.56 attempts.

Jay has had 18 lost fumbles and 37 interceptions over 41 games. That appears worse at a rate of 1.26 turnovers per game, but that's not the whole story. Jay had a total of 1220 pass attempts in his 2+ seasons (far more than Jake had in 3+ seasons). This equals an average of one turnover for every 23.46 attempts (a 70% improvement over Jake).

Oh, a couple more thoughts on this. Jake was a 7th year veteran when he came to Denver. Jay was a rookie when he started near the end of 2006.

Jake managed only ONE Pro Bowl in his career, a feat he didn't reach until he came to Denver to play under Shanahan. It was his 9th year in the league and he was selected after Carson Palmer went down in the playoffs. Jay made it on his own in only his second full season as a starter.

I know the Jake crowd likes to point to the Broncos TEAM record when he was the QB, but leaving out the realities about the defense isn't really being honest about what really happened.

Back on topic, the article shows that Plummer still blames everyone but himself for losing his job. Whether Shanahan treated him fairly or not is open to debate, but Jake LOST his job. It wasn't Shanahan who took it from him.

:coffee:

You know what gets me? I have been on the other side of the argument from
you about Jake ever since the argument began, as you know. So I can make
this criticism honestly:

Some of those who have argued that Jake's losses were TEAM losses are the
ones who point to Cutler's W-L and failure to get into the playoffs. I like to
see consistency, even when it's on my side of the argument . . .

-----

gnomeflinger
01-30-2009, 08:06 PM
Yeah yeah yeah, we get it Jake. :rolleyes: It's nothing new to slam the boss that fired you first.

TXBRONC
01-30-2009, 08:29 PM
STOP THE PRESS!!!

You mean to tell me that there is a NFL player that didn't get along with or like his head coach?

NO WAY!!!! Not in this day.

*sarcasm off*

I do find it strange that we have not been back to the playoffs since Shanny benched Jake. Karma???

:coffee:

Elway said something interesting on the Fan this afternoon when asked by Scott and Al what QB's are most known and remembered for....he said point blank WINNING. I sure would like to win some games Jay.

Karma? No such thing from my Christian perspective. :coffee:

If we can put the d back in defense it wont be a problem to win games. I sure am glad we have a quarterback rather than grocery store manager.

omac
01-30-2009, 09:02 PM
STOP THE PRESS!!!

You mean to tell me that there is a NFL player that didn't get along with or like his head coach?

NO WAY!!!! Not in this day.

*sarcasm off*

I do find it strange that we have not been back to the playoffs since Shanny benched Jake. Karma???

:coffee:

Elway said something interesting on the Fan this afternoon when asked by Scott and Al what QB's are most known and remembered for....he said point blank WINNING. I sure would like to win some games Jay.

WARNING: Long rant coming ... skip ahead ... :D

I'll get flamed for this, but anyway .... Elway is a bit of a hypocrite. I remember the telecast in the pregame before Elway finally got his superbowl. I'm sure I'm not the only one who remembers that moment. Bradshaw made a comment about Elway saying something like "as long as he never wins a superbowl, he'll never be considered great" or "he'll always be the losing quarterback" or something like that, and Elway responded something to the effect of "I have no respect for Terry Bradshaw". I remember that, because I was really pissed at Bradshaw, who won superbowls while he was surrounded by a great defense, a great rushing offense, and great weapons, while Elway, before, didn't have anything near that.

Ofcourse, when he did win the superbowl, with huge help from his superbowl mvp friend Terrell, Elway changed his tune and said winning it is the most important thing, though he was trying to downplay it before, since the monkey was on his back.

One reason Elway finally got that superbowl; he had a much better team around him. Defense was pretty good, rushing offense was incredible. Elway was playing under control and lessening his mistakes, because he didn't have to carry this team on his shoulders. In that first Superbowl that Elway won, Elway went for 123 yards, 0 TDs, 1 INT, and 1 rushing TD. He probably had a lot of help winning it when TD went for 157 yards and 3 TDs.

Heck, Cutler against the Bills goes for 359 yards, 0 TDs, 1 INT, and 2 rushing TDs, and to some here, it's Cutler who lost the game.

Shanahan put Plummer in a team that had a top 10 defense (top 2 against the rush in 2005), a top rushing offense (top 2 in 2005), and what he was asked to do was manage the team, which he did well. He still made much more turnovers per throw than Jay has with the team on his shoulders, a defense ranking close to last in the league, and an occasionally effective rushing offense.

Shanny made 2 major moves that have affected this team. Replacing Jake with Jay, and letting go of Coyer when he wouldn't fire some of his people.

The result of the first is one of the top passing offenses in the NFL, even without a consistent rushing threat due to injuries. The result of the 2nd is a defense that's ranked close to dead last for the last 2 seasons.

No way am I saying Cutler is better than Elway ... not even close. What I am saying is that Elway was able to finally win the big one when Shanny surrounded him with top grade talent to get him over the top, so that he didn't have to try to win games by himself (which he was pretty good at).

I also don't discount the great contribution Plummer's done for the Broncos, but he should own up to the reality that like with Elway, Shanahan surrounded him with a team that could help him win on both sides of the ball, and he should be grateful for that, instead of blaming Shanahan for everything wrong that's happened in his career.

Shanahan commented about Elway was that he he was all football: preparation, practice, study, etc. He did everything he could to get better. Jake didn't like studying, he didn't like working early in the offseason, he didn't like getting shouted at in practice. Yet Jake says Shanahan can't motivate people. Jake, some people just aren't motivated. :coffee:

END Rant

lex
01-30-2009, 09:11 PM
A "Douche bag" who helped us get to the playoffs 3 out of 4 seasons. I have no ill will against the man. By the way Jay turns the ball over just as much as Jake did. Give the guy a break.

If he cant keep his mouth shut, he doesnt deserve a break. He deserves all the pounding he gets. And you can go back to flipping off the fans. Plummer is/was an idiot of the highest order and, true to form, doesnt realize it. The guy should be thanking Shanahan.

Broncos Mtnman
01-30-2009, 09:32 PM
The guy should be thanking Shanahan.

QFT :2thumbs:

TXBRONC
01-30-2009, 09:52 PM
WARNING: Long rant coming ... skip ahead ... :D

I'll get flamed for this, but anyway .... Elway is a bit of a hypocrite. I remember the telecast in the pregame before Elway finally got his superbowl. I'm sure I'm not the only one who remembers that moment. Bradshaw made a comment about Elway saying something like "as long as he never wins a superbowl, he'll never be considered great" or "he'll always be the losing quarterback" or something like that, and Elway responded something to the effect of "I have no respect for Terry Bradshaw". I remember that, because I was really pissed at Bradshaw, who won superbowls while he was surrounded by a great defense, a great rushing offense, and great weapons, while Elway, before, didn't have anything near that.

Ofcourse, when he did win the superbowl, with huge help from his superbowl mvp friend Terrell, Elway changed his tune and said winning it is the most important thing, though he was trying to downplay it before, since the monkey was on his back.

One reason Elway finally got that superbowl; he had a much better team around him. Defense was pretty good, rushing offense was incredible. Elway was playing under control and lessening his mistakes, because he didn't have to carry this team on his shoulders. In that first Superbowl that Elway won, Elway went for 123 yards, 0 TDs, 1 INT, and 1 rushing TD. He probably had a lot of help winning it when TD went for 157 yards and 3 TDs.

Heck, Cutler against the Bills goes for 359 yards, 0 TDs, 1 INT, and 2 rushing TDs, and to some here, it's Cutler who lost the game.

Shanahan put Plummer in a team that had a top 10 defense (top 2 against the rush in 2005), a top rushing offense (top 2 in 2005), and what he was asked to do was manage the team, which he did well. He still made much more turnovers per throw than Jay has with the team on his shoulders, a defense ranking close to last in the league, and an occasionally effective rushing offense.

Shanny made 2 major moves that have affected this team. Replacing Jake with Jay, and letting go of Coyer when he wouldn't fire some of his people.

The result of the first is one of the top passing offenses in the NFL, even without a consistent rushing threat due to injuries. The result of the 2nd is a defense that's ranked close to dead last for the last 2 seasons.

No way am I saying Cutler is better than Elway ... not even close. What I am saying is that Elway was able to finally win the big one when Shanny surrounded him with top grade talent to get him over the top, so that he didn't have to try to win games by himself (which he was pretty good at).

I also don't discount the great contribution Plummer's done for the Broncos, but he should own up to the reality that like with Elway, Shanahan surrounded him with a team that could help him win on both sides of the ball, and he should be grateful for that, instead of blaming Shanahan for everything wrong that's happened in his career.

Shanahan commented about Elway was that he he was all football: preparation, practice, study, etc. He did everything he could to get better. Jake didn't like studying, he didn't like working early in the offseason, he didn't like getting shouted at in practice. Yet Jake says Shanahan can't motivate people. Jake, some people just aren't motivated. :coffee:

END Rant

Excellent post Omac. :salute:

Shanahan also said they Jay has that same attribute about football: preparation, practice and study. And you spot on some people are motivated to do there best and some are not.

Superchop 7
01-30-2009, 10:11 PM
It's all about wins and losses.

40-18

Jake can say any damn thing he wants.

He never had the offensive weapons Jay has had. (10 points a game Jay)

I watched Eddie Royal open ALL game long, do you really think Jake would miss that ??? No he wouldn't.....but Jay did.

And I guarantee with 3 games to go......Jake would have made the playoffs with "this" team.

He is a winner in my book.

MTNman got his wish, a QB with a lousy record.

I can't believe he has the balls to debate the result.

DenBronx
01-30-2009, 10:11 PM
i wouldnt mind plummer back as a backup.

TXBRONC
01-30-2009, 10:39 PM
It's all about wins and losses.

40-18

Jake can say any damn thing he wants.

He never had the offensive weapons Jay has had. (10 points a game Jay)

I watched Eddie Royal open ALL game long, do you really think Jake would miss that ??? No he wouldn't.....but Jay did.

And I guarantee with 3 games to go......Jake would have made the playoffs with "this" team.

He is a winner in my book.

MTNman got his wish, a QB with a lousy record.

I can't believe he has the balls to debate the result.

Yeah I'm sure your t.v. let you see the game like you were right under center so you that Royal was open every freakin play of freakin game. :rolleyes:

Do I really think Jake would have missed seeing Royal open all day long? Hell yes if he wasn't primary on a boot leg damn straight he would have missed him. Even if he did see him with there is no telling if could actually throw the damn ball with any kind of accuracy.

I keep hearing this whine about how Jay has better weapons around him. My ass he does. His offensive weapons in the passing game but the running game consistent? Answer is: No. Did Jake have a defense that gave up back to back years of 400 plus total points? Answer is no. In fact Jake actually did have better team around him than Jay has.

TXBRONC
01-30-2009, 10:42 PM
i wouldnt mind plummer back as a backup.

Den honestly I don't think he would fit in an offense that will require more than one or two reads in the passing game. And we already know he is severely limited as pocket passer.

56crash
01-30-2009, 10:42 PM
I saw this article this morning and didn't it was worth the effort to post here because all it does is prove Jake is bitter, and unable own up to own short comings.


that meant you read his silly ass in the first place . I think of him as my first girlfriend wearing the best thoughts in the crotch of my pants .;;;;))))

Shanahan will probably own the Broncos some day ....pumb bob will be losing to some richie rich p***k in some hand ball turnie:elefant:

Shazam!
01-30-2009, 10:45 PM
As far as Bradshaw goes, he HATED John Elway. Here are some quotes I remember from him over the years, clear as day in near word for word-


"He's (Elway) not a great Quarterback; He's a good one. To be great you have to reach the pinnacle of success. He's never reached that pinnacle, and he probably never will.

"The Denver Broncos will never win a Super Bowl with John Elway as their Quarterback."

Post-96 Season, Divisional Playoff home loss to Jacksonville


Elway was 16-17 as a Starter when Denver's defense couldn't stop anyone in 1993-94. He put up good numbers and Denver was still a Top 10 NFL offense and a huge passing threat and they still got creamed. I guess he was a frickin' loser too who couldn't win ****? They were dead last in the League vs. the pass and near last (or last) in points allowed. Denver was 30th (PA) in 2008, ahead of only Detroit and St. Louis.

As for Jake's 'winning record,' that is a reflection of how good the TEAM was. Nobody on this forum can seriously believe Denver's defense in 2003-05 was nearly as good as it wa in 2008. Not only that but the leadership on the field \Denver had then is gone now (Rod, Al, Lynch, etc.) If the Broncos even had a middling NFL defense this season they would have won the AFCW early in November and finished probably 11-5. Shananan would have looked like a genius and would have still been here in 2009.

I can't believe the number fo Jake sympathizers here. I wanted Jake out (as well as Shanahan,) and was thrilled when they got Cutler. But he betrayed Jake, shattered his confidence and ultimately ended his career. To me, you can't be a Shana-fan and a big Jake fan at the same time. Shanahan sabotaged him and set him up to fail as his 13th scapegoat.

I'm glad they're both out of Denver now, that's all I know.

56crash
01-30-2009, 10:51 PM
Al Wilson was the team plumb bob was the reason we lost

Tned
01-30-2009, 10:59 PM
Jake, the forum topic, that keeps on keepin on ...

Dreadnought
01-31-2009, 12:16 AM
Jake, the forum topic, that keeps on keepin on ...

He's kind of like herpes in that way

Lonestar
01-31-2009, 01:54 AM
been gone for most of the day.. I find it funny the the Jay supported see no wrong..

Now I like Jay but many times he has stared down his primary receiver t the point then throwing into double and triple coverage.. Much like Jake did..

So that bovine excrement that some are throwing out here that Jake did not read more than one receiver did not follow his progressions.. Well neither does Jay some of the time....

BTW I find it laughable that some are comparing this years OLINE to many that Jake had..

Also add to that Eddie, Brandon and Brandon are lesser players than javon, ashley, and Rod give me a ******* break..

I will grant you this years D sucked.. as did our running game.. BUT Well the haters are going to hate regardless.

Y'all know that I had zero confidence in mikey the GM and was suspect on mikeys motivational skills other than the liberal (hate that word) use of his doghouse..
Laying out a game plan no one better or at least no one WAS better when he had 4-6 HOF players on the squad not so sure he did much since..

First and last post in this thread so flame away..:salute:

Shazam!
01-31-2009, 02:06 AM
I agree with some of that Jr, as I usually do with all your posts. BUT-

Jay is young, and he will learn (we hope) from his mistakes. 2008 was quite the offensive experience for him and he did a lot of good things. Jake's mistakes were never going to change.

Sure Denver's WRs are better now, but their running game was much better in those years with Jake. As far as the OLine, Denver's OLine may be better now, but lets not go out on a limb and say they were bad during Jake's tenure. The OLine was always good. Better some years than others, but was always good.

Jay is going into his 3rd full season as the Starter in a new system. I'm sure McCoach will work on that stuff, and possibly Jay will be a much better QB and not try to force too much.

Superchop 7
01-31-2009, 02:45 AM
OK....stupidity reigns....

If the offense controls...


DEFENSIVE numbers get better.

40-18

Told ya then

Go ahead....defend your pathetic position.

Jake was better.

When will you listen ??

What has your QB done for me lately ??

JAKE WAS BETTER.

Simple Jaded
01-31-2009, 03:53 AM
.......seriously?

Jake Plummer couldn't dream of being the QB that Jay Cutler already is.......That's coming from a St Jaker, Plummer never had it like Cutler does.

You can hold that 40-18 up while you fap all over Jake Plummer, but he was never this good.......and it's only Cutler's 37th game as a starter.

Jake Plummer was better than Griese, I'll give you that much.......

honz
01-31-2009, 04:19 AM
Jay and Jake have probably performed about equally in their careers as Broncos. Jake had a better running game and defense to work with and thus won more games. Jay has had one of the worst defenses and an inconsistent running game to work with and thus has not won as many games. Maybe Jake should have finished out the season when Jay replaced him, but I am pretty confident that there will be no question who the better QB was when it is all said and done.

Northman
01-31-2009, 06:46 AM
And I guarantee with 3 games to go......Jake would have made the playoffs with "this" team.



:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


*Edit*

Oh and by the way, when your going to make a statement that the only thing that matters is winning and it doesnt have anything to do with surrounding talent then dont forget to add the rest of Jake's career winning percentage to your statement. Jake was 69-67 overall. WOW, mind blowing isnt it? lmao

Northman
01-31-2009, 06:58 AM
I agree with some of that Jr, as I usually do with all your posts. BUT-

Jay is young, and he will learn (we hope) from his mistakes. 2008 was quite the offensive experience for him and he did a lot of good things. Jake's mistakes were never going to change.

Sure Denver's WRs are better now, but their running game was much better in those years with Jake. As far as the OLine, Denver's OLine may be better now, but lets not go out on a limb and say they were bad during Jake's tenure. The OLine was always good. Better some years than others, but was always good.

Jay is going into his 3rd full season as the Starter in a new system. I'm sure McCoach will work on that stuff, and possibly Jay will be a much better QB and not try to force too much.


Excellent response and right on the money. The surrounding "talent" is vastly different for both Qb's where one had a more balanced team with veteran leadership while the other is full of young guys, no defense, and a below subpar running game and yet we still managed to be .500 record wise. Sure, the mistakes are there but i expect that from a guy who just finished his second full year compared to a guy who was doing the same thing after 10 years at the same rate. The other thing that bothers me is that Jake wasnt fired, he was demoted and asked to play a team role in helping a young Qb try and mature. But instead Jake pouted and quit on the team. Jake left because he wanted too.

BeefStew25
01-31-2009, 08:22 AM
Jake retired because for the first time since high school he was going to have to compete for the starting gig. Primas donnas don't do that.

Dreadnought
01-31-2009, 09:26 AM
Jake retired because for the first time since high school he was going to have to compete for the starting gig. Primas donnas don't do that.

Exactly. His whole 2006 Season was a prolonged pout over it too. Good riddance.

Lonestar
01-31-2009, 09:31 AM
I agree with some of that Jr, as I usually do with all your posts. BUT-

Jay is young, and he will learn (we hope) from his mistakes. 2008 was quite the offensive experience for him and he did a lot of good things. Jake's mistakes were never going to change.

Sure Denver's WRs are better now, but their running game was much better in those years with Jake. As far as the OLine, Denver's OLine may be better now, but lets not go out on a limb and say they were bad during Jake's tenure. The OLine was always good. Better some years than others, but was always good.

Jay is going into his 3rd full season as the Starter in a new system. I'm sure McCoach will work on that stuff, and possibly Jay will be a much better QB and not try to force too much.

BUt during the AFCCG year 2005 IIRC JAkes reads and ball protectionm were te best of his career.. at one point had set teh Bronco record of passes Withou a pick and was (again IIRC) close to setting an NFL record. That was after the offseason of going over each of his plays from AZ and DEN with Gary...

Yes the Oline were good, and sacks were low but a huge part of that was the Snake also.. yv

TXBRONC
01-31-2009, 09:39 AM
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


*Edit*

Oh and by the way, when your going to make a statement that the only thing that matters is winning and it doesnt have anything to do with surrounding talent then dont forget to add the rest of Jake's career winning percentage to your statement. Jake was 69-67 overall. WOW, mind blowing isnt it? lmao

Exactly, if the surrounding talent doesn't matter why didn't Jake have better stats, and more wins while he was in Arizona?

While I can admit that at times Jay will stare down a receiver at times, he still better at reading the entire field.

broncophan
01-31-2009, 09:45 AM
BUt during the AFCCG year 2005 IIRC JAkes reads and ball protectionm were te best of his career.. at one point had set teh Bronco record of passes Withou a pick and was (again IIRC) close to setting an NFL record. That was after the offseason of going over each of his plays from AZ and DEN with Gary...

Yes the Oline were good, and sacks were low but a huge part of that was the Snake also.. yv

Yep.......hell....there was SERIOUS talk of Jake getting the MVP throughout most of that season as well.

while Jake wasn't my favorite qb....neither is Cutler.....but I hoped/hope for the best.I do know....Cutler hasn't won crap since his high school days......and that, more than anything concerns me about him.....but his stats are good....:rolleyes:....have fun at the pro bowl.

Back to topic though......I don't care what Plummer thinks of Shanahan these days.

TXBRONC
01-31-2009, 10:15 AM
BUt during the AFCCG year 2005 IIRC JAkes reads and ball protectionm were te best of his career.. at one point had set teh Bronco record of passes Withou a pick and was (again IIRC) close to setting an NFL record. That was after the offseason of going over each of his plays from AZ and DEN with Gary...

Yes the Oline were good, and sacks were low but a huge part of that was the Snake also.. yv

So you're saying that Kubiak and Plummer went over 3577 pass attempts spanning a six year period? And they did this all within three months? Wrong. First of all there isn't enough time to break down that much game film in three months. Second, this falls under the revisionist history of Jake Plummer lovers. Kubiak and Plummer broke down the game film of the 521 passing attempts he made in 2004 season not some six year worth of film. :rolleyes:

topscribe
01-31-2009, 10:17 AM
Exactly, if the surrounding talent doesn't matter why didn't Jake have better stats, and more wins while he was in Arizona?

While I can admit that at times Jay will stare down a receiver at times, he still better at reading the entire field.

I don't know that Jay is better at reading the field. The difference is, Jay can
reach the entire field with his arm and accuracy. That has been one of the
major differences between Elway and the other QBs Denver has had, and now
Denver has another QB who can do just that.

Jake suffered the same malady as all but a handful of QBs in history: he could
play only the part of the field in which he happened to be. Cutler is one of
that handful who can be be on one side of the field and reach a receiver on
the other.

-----

TXBRONC
01-31-2009, 10:25 AM
I don't know that Jay is better at reading the field. The difference is, Jay can
reach the entire field with his arm and accuracy. That has been one of the
major differences between Elway and the other QBs Denver has had, and now
Denver has another QB who can do just that.

Jake suffered the same malady as all but a handful of QBs in history: he could
play only the part of the field in which he happened to be. Cutler is one of
that handful who can be be on one side of the field and reach a receiver on
the other.

-----

If Jake could read the whole field they would incorporated more of the pocket pass plays. Shanahan said as much just past season, he said it was nice to be able use entire play book. Jake had the arm strength just not the ability to read the entire field.

topscribe
01-31-2009, 10:25 AM
Yep.......hell....there was SERIOUS talk of Jake getting the MVP throughout most of that season as well.

while Jake wasn't my favorite qb....neither is Cutler.....but I hoped/hope for the best.I do know....Cutler hasn't won crap since his high school days......and that, more than anything concerns me about him.....but his stats are good....:rolleyes:....have fun at the pro bowl.

Back to topic though......I don't care what Plummer thinks of Shanahan these days.

One more time *sigh*, let's get over this crap about what Jay hasn't won.
This is not tennis or bowling: it is a 53-man game. Before we address his W-L,
let's see him with a defense that is not the worst in the league. Once that
happens, I rest assured Jay will be a perennial playoff QB.

-----

topscribe
01-31-2009, 10:27 AM
If Jake could read the whole field they would incorporated more of the pocket pass plays. Shanahan said as much just past season, he said it was nice to be able use entire play book. Jake had the arm strength just not the ability to read the entire field.

We broke down the statistics on Jake over on the other board, and he had
more pocket pass plays that one might think, and he was more successful
than one might think. I'm not saying he was great at it, but that he wasn't as
bad as the impression some have.

My point is that it doesn't matter whether a QB can read the whole field if he
cannot reach it. And most QBs can't.

-----

omac
01-31-2009, 10:29 AM
BUt during the AFCCG year 2005 IIRC JAkes reads and ball protectionm were te best of his career.. at one point had set teh Bronco record of passes Withou a pick and was (again IIRC) close to setting an NFL record. That was after the offseason of going over each of his plays from AZ and DEN with Gary...

Yes the Oline were good, and sacks were low but a huge part of that was the Snake also.. yv

That's just the thing that makes it annoying.

Jake had his best season of his career with Shanahan. Shanny tailored the offense to suit Jake's strengths (roll-outs, throwing on the run), and de-emphasize his weaknesses (pocket passing, reading defenses). He made the decisions simpler for Jake, and Jake excelled. Shanahan even said in an interview during the playoffs that season that he worked hard at practice with Jake on just throwing the ball out of bounds, to limit his INTs. So it all went great. Jake's season was similar to David Garrard's 2007 season, which was really good, also not many TDs, but very few INTs.

Jake's best years in the NFL were with Shanny coaching him, and in Shanny's system, yet he doesn't give Shanny any credit for that, and dumps on Shanny any chance he gets.

"Shanny firing was past due" .... Jake, any earlier and you'd be remembered only for your career in Arizona. :tsk:

broncophan
01-31-2009, 10:37 AM
One more time *sigh*, let's get over this crap about what Jake hasn't won.
This is not tennis or bowling: it is a 53-man game. Before we address his W-L,
let's see him with a defense that is not the worst in the league. Once that
happens, I rest assured Jay will be a perennial playoff QB.

-----

*sigh*........sure it's a 53-man game.....I hope you are right about him being a perrennial playoff qb,,,,,,,but that is funny to say when he has been to as many playoffs as I have......."0".

Plummer led his team at Arizona St. to a rose bowl appearance......and won alot of games while in Denver....and his nfl years at Arizona were terrible.....but he played for a "doomed" franchise at the time.

QB's are judged on wins and losses whether that is right or not.Plummer won't be remembered 30 years from now with the exception of the AFC Championship game he led his team to.........and neither will Cutler if he and his teams don't get to the Superbowl.

topscribe
01-31-2009, 10:51 AM
*sigh*........sure it's a 53-man game.....I hope you are right about him being a perrennial playoff qb,,,,,,,but that is funny to say when he has been to as many playoffs as I have......."0".

Plummer led his team at Arizona St. to a rose bowl appearance......and won alot of games while in Denver....and his nfl years at Arizona were terrible.....but he played for a "doomed" franchise at the time.

QB's are judged on wins and losses whether that is right or not.Plummer won't be remembered 30 years from now with the exception of the AFC Championship game he led his team to.........and neither will Cutler if he and his teams don't get to the Superbowl.

Oh, I see. So Jake gets a bye with the Cardinals, but Jay is a loser at Denver. :rolleyes:

Please refer to Post #18 in this thread.

-----

ColtsOwnDonks
01-31-2009, 10:54 AM
Oh, I see. So Jake gets a bye with the Cardinals, but Jay is a loser at Denver. :rolleyes:

Please refer to Post #18 in this thread.

-----

I can't see why Jay can't have the same success at DEN like jake had. Whats the excuse? The defense left? lol....

omac
01-31-2009, 10:55 AM
On reading the field, this is from Brandon Marshall and what he says of Jay ....

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/broncos/2008-09-23-insider_N.htm


"The difference in Jay from our first year to this year is his presence in the pocket," Marshall says. "The guy's doing amazing things, as far as how he controls the safeties with his shoulders and his eyes, and being able to read coverages.

"Sometimes you get guys who can make big plays, run fast and throw hard.

"But very seldom do you get a package of a guy who can do all that and can read coverages and tell everyone what they've got on every single play. He's a special guy. And he's our guy forever."

TXBRONC
01-31-2009, 11:06 AM
On reading the field, this is from Brandon Marshall and what he says of Jay ....

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/broncos/2008-09-23-insider_N.htm

As I said yes he can read the entire field.

MileHighWrath
01-31-2009, 12:30 PM
Comparing a 10 year veteran QB to a 3rd year QB?

You understand that, no matter what side of the fence you are on, if you are making that comparison, then either the 10 year guy wasn't all that or the 3rd year guy is special.

Tned
01-31-2009, 12:42 PM
If Jake could read the whole field they would incorporated more of the pocket pass plays. Shanahan said as much just past season, he said it was nice to be able use entire play book. Jake had the arm strength just not the ability to read the entire field.

I'm not going to get sucked back into the good Jake / bad Jake arguments, because it's like arguing about why the south got their asses kicked in the civil war. What's the point, it's ancient history.

However, I will share this fact. The line Jake played behind was not capable of straight up pass blocking, without getting "thrown around like rag dolls" as some used to like to say when criticizing the linemen.

We will never know whether or not Jake could have been successful in a pocket passing dominated game plan, because the line he played behind didn't allow that.

Lonestar
01-31-2009, 02:36 PM
So you're saying that Kubiak and Plummer went over 3577 pass attempts spanning a six year period? And they did this all within three months? Wrong. First of all there isn't enough time to break down that much game film in three months. Second, this falls under the revisionist history of Jake Plummer lovers. Kubiak and Plummer broke down the game film of the 521 passing attempts he made in 2004 season not some six year worth of film.

As I understood it, it was while he was in DEN.. NOW If I'm wrong and it was JUST one year. Even YOU and the rest of the Jake haters would have to agree his 2005 year was DRAMATICALLY better than any other year he was in PRO football.. nearly setting NFL records for passes between PICKs. :rolleyes:

Which then puts to rest his unwillingness to study and NOT be part of the off season programs..

I liked Jake for many reasons, Jay looks like he has the ability to be the better QB, but the facts still remain:


he has not been part of a winning program since high school..
He still makes bad reads or decides to risk the throw into extremely tight spots..
HE still alerts the DB's to his intentions by not looking off his target..
He has an almost obsession in throwing to Marshall..

IF he can be coached into correcting these things then he will become a superb QB, if not just good and we already had that it Jake..

the past couple of years mikeys seemed not to press the issue with Jay on the sidelines. Also did not take what was open and always was looking deep. Perhaps he did but if he did I did not see it.. there were rumors that Jay lazer locked on to his favorites and overlooked the open men in patterns because his arm was that good.. And mikey seemed to allow this to go on without comment..

Shazam!
01-31-2009, 02:53 PM
As I said in the thread earlier-

"Elway was 16-17 as a Starter when Denver's defense couldn't stop anyone in 1993-94. He put up good numbers and Denver was still a Top 10 NFL offense and a huge passing threat and they still got creamed. I guess he was a frickin' loser too who couldn't win **** (because people compare Jake's 'winning record' to Cutler's losing record after only 2.35 years as a Starter.) The Broncos were dead last in the League vs. the pass and near last (or last) in points allowed. Denver was 30th (PA) in 2008, ahead of only Detroit and St. Louis."

I'd like to see how Jake would have fared if Denver's defense was the worst in the League. That would have been something to see... Actually, no it wouldn't.

People here compare apples and oranges. Not only that you can't defend Shanahan and be a Plummer fan. Shanahan killed his career and stabbed him in the back.

Lonestar
01-31-2009, 02:55 PM
As I said in the thread earlier-

"Elway was 16-17 as a Starter when Denver's defense couldn't stop anyone in 1993-94. He put up good numbers and Denver was still a Top 10 NFL offense and a huge passing threat and they still got creamed. I guess he was a frickin' loser too who couldn't win **** (because people compare Jake's 'winning record' to Cutler's losing record after only 2.35 years as a Starter.) The Broncos were dead last in the League vs. the pass and near last (or last) in points allowed. Denver was 30th (PA) in 2008, ahead of only Detroit and St. Louis."

I'd like to see how Jake would have fared if Denver's defense was the worst in the League. That would have been something to see... Actually, no it wouldn't.

People here compare apples and oranges. Not only that you can't defend Shanahan and be a Plummer fan. Shanahan killed his career and stabbed him in the back.

You and I seem to be the only ones that agree in this.. :salute:

Northman
01-31-2009, 03:09 PM
Even YOU and the rest of the Jake lovers would have to agree his 2005 year was DRAMATICALLY better than any other year he was in PRO football.. nearly setting NFL records for passes between PICKs. :rolleyes:



Absolutely that was his best year. No one has debated that. But considering it was the only time that he stepped up his game i would venture to say it had more to do with Shanahan and his schemes to enable Jake to be successful. Its also no shock that Shanahan saw his limitations even within that and therefore had to find a Qb who could do more than what Jake had to offer. Sadly, Jake couldnt handle having a rookie behind him and folded up his tent and quit. I guess Bronco fans can be thankful that Elway didnt do that when they drafted Maddox.

Shazam!
01-31-2009, 03:15 PM
I guess Bronco fans can be thankful that Elway didnt do that when they drafted Maddox.

If you were Elway, would you have been scared of Tommy Maddox? LOL

TXBRONC
01-31-2009, 03:50 PM
As I understood it, it was while he was in DEN.. NOW If I'm wrong and it was JUST one year. Even YOU and the rest of the Jake haters would have to agree his 2005 year was DRAMATICALLY better than any other year he was in PRO football.. nearly setting NFL records for passes between PICKs. :rolleyes:

Which then puts to rest his unwillingness to study and NOT be part of the off season programs..

I liked Jake for many reasons, Jay looks like he has the ability to be the better QB, but the facts still remain:


he has not been part of a winning program since high school..
He still makes bad reads or decides to risk the throw into extremely tight spots..
HE still alerts the DB's to his intentions by not looking off his target..
He has an almost obsession in throwing to Marshall..

IF he can be coached into correcting these things then he will become a superb QB, if not just good and we already had that it Jake..

the past couple of years mikeys seemed not to press the issue with Jay on the sidelines. Also did not take what was open and always was looking deep. Perhaps he did but if he did I did not see it.. there were rumors that Jay lazer locked on to his favorites and overlooked the open men in patterns because his arm was that good.. And mikey seemed to allow this to go on without comment..

I guess you're unware that Jake went in after the 2004 season because his bosses asked him too it wasn't because he felt the need. Sorry to burst your bubble but no didn't put to rest that Jake was self motivated to work beyond what was required. Kreiger from RMN made it clear AFTER Jake's benching that never took extra time to study and try get better on his own. When it was his day off or his vacation time he was gone. I know that's crushing but life is tough sometimes.

At any rate yes Jake was better for the 2005 season however if don't think that had anything to do with Shanahan then you're being foolish.

Guys like yourself bring up Jay's college career as a criticism but ignore important facts. Now who is the hater Jr? :confused:

Yep Jay does throw the ball into tight windows. But so did a certain Hall of Famer who played 16 years in Denver.

I guess that extra special t.v. you have allows see exactly what Jay see on the field and whether or not his eyes are scanning the field. :coffee:

Is Jay obsessed with throwing to Marshall? In the big picture of things I doubt it, not when you have five receivers with 30 or more catches and considering three of them would not be primary receivers on most pass plays. Also there was another five or six receivers with 10 or more catches for the year.

The one thing you are right about is that you have NO freakin idea what Shanahan said didn't say to Jay on the sideline. Your hatred of Shanahan doesn't allow you see the anything with balance.

TXBRONC
01-31-2009, 03:56 PM
Absolutely that was his best year. No one has debated that. But considering it was the only time that he stepped up his game i would venture to say it had more to do with Shanahan and his schemes to enable Jake to be successful. Its also no shock that Shanahan saw his limitations even within that and therefore had to find a Qb who could do more than what Jake had to offer. Sadly, Jake couldnt handle having a rookie behind him and folded up his tent and quit. I guess Bronco fans can be thankful that Elway didnt do that when they drafted Maddox.

I've never denied or disregarded that fact that Jake's 2005 season was his best. The Shanahan haters have hard time accepting that he had a lot to do with Plummers success.

Broncos Mtnman
01-31-2009, 04:14 PM
Since win-loss records are the ONLY measurement of success for some of the St. Jake crowd.

St. Jake's playoff record in Denver was 1-3. Seems he's pretty pathetic when he's in the playoffs.....

:coffee:

topscribe
01-31-2009, 04:42 PM
Since win-loss records are the ONLY measurement of success for some of the St. Jake crowd.

St. Jake's playoff record in Denver was 1-3. Seems he's pretty pathetic when he's in the playoffs.....

:coffee:

Revival of the "St. Jake" moniker.

Where did you find the shovel? :D

-----

Broncos Mtnman
01-31-2009, 05:56 PM
Revival of the "St. Jake" moniker.

Where did you find the shovel? :D

-----

So nice, we did it twice.... :lol:

Simple Jaded
01-31-2009, 06:06 PM
Yep.......hell....there was SERIOUS talk of Jake getting the MVP throughout most of that season as well.

while Jake wasn't my favorite qb....neither is Cutler.....but I hoped/hope for the best.I do know....Cutler hasn't won crap since his high school days......and that, more than anything concerns me about him.....but his stats are good....:rolleyes:....have fun at the pro bowl.

Back to topic though......I don't care what Plummer thinks of Shanahan these days.

So you don't like Cutler, that's your prerogative and nobody cares, but at least look at his career objectively, he's played on teams with inferior talent since high school.

Vanderbilt won an average of 2.9 games a season the ten years before Cutler got there, the Broncos defense has given up an average of 28 points a game since he took over for Plummer.

You don't like him, we get it, but let's not pretend he's the only reason for his teams lack of success.......that just makes us look like complete idiots.......

omac
01-31-2009, 06:44 PM
Since win-loss records are the ONLY measurement of success for some of the St. Jake crowd.

St. Jake's playoff record in Denver was 1-3. Seems he's pretty pathetic when he's in the playoffs.....

:coffee:

Heck, let's just go back a few years (again). Rex Grossman is one of the best QBs in the league, since he got the Bears into the superbowl, something Jay, Jake, Carson, Phillip, Jeff, Drew, etc. have never done. He's obviously better than all of them. That win he had in Arizona ... the one where he had 0 TDs, 4 INTs, and 2 fumbles ... how he gets those wins is incredible. Doesn't really matter that the Bears defense and ST were at their best that season. Grossman's the QB, and QBs are rated by their wins, no matter what the makeup of their team. :cool:

omac
01-31-2009, 07:17 PM
.....

Yep Jay does throw the ball into tight windows. But so did a certain Hall of Famer who played 16 years in Denver.

I guess that extra special t.v. you have allows see exactly what Jay see on the field and whether or not his eyes are scanning the field. :coffee:

Is Jay obsessed with throwing to Marshall? In the big picture of things I doubt it, not when you have five receivers with 30 or more catches and considering three of them would not be primary receivers on most pass plays. Also there was another five or six receivers with 10 or more catches for the year.

Nice post, and I wanted to add onto your points here. In the link I posted earlier, here's what Jaws had to say about Jay ....


"Jay Cutler's playing terrific," ESPN Monday Night Football analyst Ron Jaworski says. "What I saw in Jay coming out of Vanderbilt was the ability to throw the football. And that's where it starts.

"In today's game, your quarterback has to be able to make every throw. There's a lot of guys with average arms, and you can get by with those guys — guys in the horizontal and short passing game can be successful. But the great quarterbacks get the ball down the field. In third-and-long situations with teams playing five, six and sometimes seven, eight defensive backs, you've got to be able to make tight throws.

"Some of those throws he made in that (Week 2, 39-38) win against San Diego, there's only one guy who can make them: Jay Cutler. … He was just flicking his wrist, throwing lasers."

Also, that point about 5 receivers with 30 or more catches; great point. Truth is, since stepping in, he's spread the ball around to different targets. No coincidence that Marshall and Scheffler suddenly became factors in the passing game. He'll always look first to his go-to guy, like all QBs do, but in several big plays and TDs this season, he's gone not just to Marshall, but Stokley, Eddie, Tony, Daniel, Peyton ... heck, even Darrell Jackson had a TD. If that's not spreading the ball around, then what is? :coffee:

Watchthemiddle
01-31-2009, 07:45 PM
Don't you guys EVER get tired of this tired arguement? Even I am tired of it...but I guess the thread starter can't get enough Jake.


Main Entry: obsessive-compulsive disorder
Function: noun
: a psychoneurotic disorder in which the patient is beset with obsessions or compulsions or both and suffers extreme anxiety or depression through failure to think the obsessive thoughts or perform the compelling acts -- abbreviation OCD; called also obsessive-compulsive neurosis, obsessive-compulsive reaction

http://medical.merriam-webster.com/medical/obsessive-compulsive%20disorder

:coffee::coffee:

Bozo Jr.
01-31-2009, 07:52 PM
As I said yes he can read the entire field.

So then why doesn't he do it?

Bozo Jr.
01-31-2009, 07:58 PM
If he cant keep his mouth shut, he doesnt deserve a break. He deserves all the pounding he gets. And you can go back to flipping off the fans. Plummer is/was an idiot of the highest order and, true to form, doesnt realize it. The guy should be thanking Shanahan.

If I remember correctly, Jake gave the bird to the fans after he was booed, it was a tipped pass. I repeat....A Tipped Pass. That's no reason to boo your QB. I'll bet you weren't complaining when we were in the AFC Championship at 13-3!

By the way, were all sick of your Spags avatar.

broncophan
01-31-2009, 08:04 PM
So you don't like Cutler, that's your prerogative and nobody cares, but at least look at his career objectively, he's played on teams with inferior talent since high school.

Vanderbilt won an average of 2.9 games a season the ten years before Cutler got there, the Broncos defense has given up an average of 28 points a game since he took over for Plummer.

You don't like him, we get it, but let's not pretend he's the only reason for his teams lack of success.......that just makes us look like complete idiots.......

Sure, I like Cutler........just as I have liked any qb who starts for the broncos.I just know that you can't expect a kid to come in and have the intangibles to be a leader 3 years into his nfl career.

Throw in a weak defense with a kid qb.......and that makes a kid qb who is learning the game ......look that much worse.


Where have I pretended that he is the only reason for the team's lack of success??.....and if I did "pretend" how does that make you and others look like idiots??.......wow I must be a powerful person if I can do that on a message board....lol.:rolleyes:

He's not the only reason for the team's lack of success.....but good stats don't mean crap.....his career success will be based on wins and losses.....so I would at least like for him and his team to start winning more than they lose........that's not asking a whole lot........but then again......he and his teams have not done that since his high school days.

I do give Cutler a pass......not because of a defense that is terrible......but he is still learning to be an nfl qb.

Now we have a kid head coach with a kid qb and a new offense.......8-8 this past season may look pretty good compared to what may happen the next season or two.

Broncos Mtnman
01-31-2009, 08:13 PM
Don't you guys EVER get tired of this tired arguement? Even I am tired of it...but I guess the thread starter can't get enough Jake.


Main Entry: obsessive-compulsive disorder
Function: noun
: a psychoneurotic disorder in which the patient is beset with obsessions or compulsions or both and suffers extreme anxiety or depression through failure to think the obsessive thoughts or perform the compelling acts -- abbreviation OCD; called also obsessive-compulsive neurosis, obsessive-compulsive reaction

http://medical.merriam-webster.com/medical/obsessive-compulsive%20disorder

:coffee::coffee:

I posted an article I found.

Don't like it? Tough!!

:coffee:

broncophan
01-31-2009, 08:16 PM
Oh, I see. So Jake gets a bye with the Cardinals, but Jay is a loser at Denver. :rolleyes:

Please refer to Post #18 in this thread.

-----

No bye for Jake.......everybody was a loser in Arizona for so many years......it's not funny.....that franchise was doomed for decades.

I certainly don't compare Denver's franchise to Arizona's.....there is no comparison.

A little harsh to say kid Cutler is a loser......only 3 years into his nfl career.If his teams don't start winning more than losing.....that is how he will be remembered......with a new coaching staff etc......2 or 3 more years.....and hopefully we will get a playoff appearance......kid Cutler will be a veteran qb by then.

Broncos Mtnman
01-31-2009, 08:20 PM
If I remember correctly, Jake gave the bird to the fans after he was booed, it was a tipped pass. I repeat....A Tipped Pass. That's no reason to boo your QB. I'll bet you weren't complaining when we were in the AFC Championship at 13-3!

No, we saved it for his 4 turnover performance in the AFC Championship game.

Concerning the "finger incident" (you say it was tipped - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt), perhaps it had more to do with the fact that it was his 6th INT in two games with ZERO TDs.

By the way. The finger? 2004. The 13-3 TEAM record? 2005.

:coffee:

Simple Jaded
01-31-2009, 08:37 PM
Here is what I don't get about this continuing debate:

What makes less sense? Giving one QB all the credit for wins with a Top10 defense.......or one QB all the blame for loses with the second worst defense in Denver Broncos history?

Some people are doing both, and that's beyond stupid.......

Broncos Mtnman
01-31-2009, 08:44 PM
Here is what I don't get about this continuing debate:

What makes less sense? Giving one QB all the credit for wins with a Top10 defense.......or one QB all the blame for loses with the second worst defense in Denver Broncos history?

Some people are doing both, and that's beyond stupid.......

True dat!! :werd:

TXBRONC
01-31-2009, 08:46 PM
So then why doesn't he do it?

He does Boz. Marshall (104), Royal (91), Stokley (49), Scheffler (40), Graham (32) and four other receivers with 10 or more receptions.

broncophan
01-31-2009, 08:48 PM
Here is what I don't get about this continuing debate:

What makes less sense? Giving one QB all the credit for wins with a Top10 defense.......or one QB all the blame for loses with the second worst defense in Denver Broncos history?

Some people are doing both, and that's beyond stupid.......

Yea......you can't do both.....and I am not......I just feel that you need to have your team built around your qb......if you want success.

With Jake being a veteran......average teams we had.....won alot of games his years here.

With Cutler being a kid........average teams we have had...look silly.
Yes our defense was near the bottom......but our offense was near the top.

A veteran qb would have helped lead this team imo better this year.....and I could care less if it was Plummer or whoever.

Give Cutler 2 or 3 more seasons....and I think we can get back to the playoffs....he's still learning....and hasn't been on a winning team in a long time.........and hopefully our defense and offense will be clicking together by then.

TXBRONC
01-31-2009, 08:50 PM
No bye for Jake.......everybody was a loser in Arizona for so many years......it's not funny.....that franchise was doomed for decades.

I certainly don't compare Denver's franchise to Arizona's.....there is no comparison.

A little harsh to say kid Cutler is a loser......only 3 years into his nfl career.If his teams don't start winning more than losing.....that is how he will be remembered......with a new coaching staff etc......2 or 3 more years.....and hopefully we will get a playoff appearance......kid Cutler will be a veteran qb by then.

Well if Jay and the Broncos continue to struggle to win games then it be more than just him losing a job.

broncophan
01-31-2009, 08:54 PM
Well if Jay and the Broncos continue to struggle to win games then it be more than just him loses a job.

Yep.....I know first year coaches had success in the league this year......I hope for the same for the broncos........we don't need to start hiring new coaches every 2 or 3 seasons.........that's the last thing Cutler needs.

Overtime
01-31-2009, 09:10 PM
This is all Jake can do, is run his hole. He's a quitter, he's a loser, he's a poor sport, and he's a failure. he took the Cardinals to the playoffs once, and the Broncos three times (more like our defense and our running game did). Out of his 10 years in the league? 2 playoff wins, 4 playoff appearances, 4 playoff losses.

sure he had a good regular season record of 40-18 with the Broncos, but what was his record at Arizona???

let's see here

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PlumJa00.htm

Jake Plummer in Arizona by the numbers.
1997 - 4-8
1998 - 9-7 (playoff appearance, 1 victory, 1 loss)
1999 - 3-8
2000 - 3-11
2001 - 7-9
2002 - 5-11

Total Record in Arizona (31 wins - 54 losses) which translates to a winning percentage of 36.47%

With Denver
2003 - 9-2 (playoff loss to Colts)
2004 - 10 - 6 (playoff loss to Colts)
2005 - 13-3 (1 playoff victory, 1 loss to Steelers <---- Plummer singlehandedly lost this game with 2 picks, and 2 fumbles).
2006 - 7-4 (benched after the 11th game of the season)

with Denver he was 40-18.

Overall he was 71-72. not even .500 ball for a span of 10 years. not to mention he threw 143 Interceptions in 10 years, and averaged 1 interception for every game he played. he also fumbled the ball 143 times. which is good for 2 turnovers per game. If that ladies and gentleman doesn't constitute a L-O-S-E-R, then I sure as hell don't know what does.

his playoff record? 2-4 which is good for 33.3% winning percentage in the playoffs.

overall record?

73-76...still a L-O-S-E-R.

Bottom line, if Plummer had played this year and last year, he'd have just about the same record as Cutler over the last 2 years, and I bet he'd have thrown almost twice as many interceptions as Cutler did.

Jake is only as good as the talent that surrounds him. It's evident in the contrasts between his time in Arizona and his time in Denver.

Our defense made him what he was. Mike Shanahan made him as good as he could ever hope to be, and sadly the 2005 AFC Championship Game, was as far as Jake was gonna be able to take us.

Not to mention his attitude towards the fans, his attitude off the field, his attitude when he faced adverse situations (I.E. the car wreck in Denver with another motorist), how he dealt with the media.

Especially his commitment to training in the offseason. He missed OTA's, he rarely studied his playbook, he didn't try to make himself better, he just left that up to Shanahan, which is why we were so limited on offense all the time.

when the going got tough, and he got benched, instead of earning his job back, he gave up and he quit, like only a L-O-S-E-R would. He's a little crybaby ***** who gave up and ran away when things didn't go his way.

Benching Plummer was the best thing Shanahan ever did in the Post John Elway era, even if we didn't make the playoffs the last 3 years. It was a sacrifice worth making, because to see that L-O-S-E-R singlehandedly choke another playoff game away would have been more than i could bear. I'd rather not make the playoffs, than go to the playoffs and have a L-O-S-E-R like Jake the Fake piss the game away for us singlehandedly.

Oh and I'd also like to mention, that had it not been for Champ Bailey's INT Pick 6 of Tom Brady in the 2005 Playoff Game, we'd have never made it to the AFC Championship Game, it wasn't anything Jake the Fake did.





A "Douche bag" who helped us get to the playoffs 3 out of 4 seasons. I have no ill will against the man. By the way Jay turns the ball over just as much as Jake did. Give the guy a break.

what good does it do to get to the playoffs if you don't get to the Big Game, and win it all? None.


A douche bag that had the benefit of playing on a team with a top-10 defense in points allowed - EVERY SEASON HE WAS HERE!! The defense over Jay's two years as a starter was ranked 28th and 30th in points allowed.

A few more points on your statment about how Jay "turns the ball over just as much...."

Jake had 10 lost fumbles and 47 interceptions over 54 games. That equals 1.05 turnovers per game. He only had 944 pass attempts, which means he had an average of one turnover for every 16.56 attempts.

Jay has had 18 lost fumbles and 37 interceptions over 41 games. That appears worse at a rate of 1.26 turnovers per game, but that's not the whole story. Jay had a total of 1220 pass attempts in his 2+ seasons (far more than Jake had in 3+ seasons). This equals an average of one turnover for every 23.46 attempts (a 30% improvement over Jake).

Oh, a couple more thoughts on this. Jake was a 7th year veteran when he came to Denver. Jay was a rookie when he started near the end of 2006.

Jake managed only ONE Pro Bowl in his career, a feat he didn't reach until he came to Denver to play under Shanahan. It was his 9th year in the league and he was selected after Carson Palmer went down in the playoffs. Jay made it on his own in only his second full season as a starter.

I know the Jake crowd likes to point to the Broncos TEAM record when he was the QB, but leaving out the realities about the defense isn't really being honest about what really happened.

Back on topic, the article shows that Plummer still blames everyone but himself for losing his job. Whether Shanahan treated him fairly or not is open to debate, but Jake LOST his job. It wasn't Shanahan who took it from him.

:coffee:

nice post.


Yeah I'm sure your t.v. let you see the game like you were right under center so you that Royal was open every freakin play of freakin game. :rolleyes:

Do I really think Jake would have missed seeing Royal open all day long? Hell yes if he wasn't primary on a boot leg damn straight he would have missed him. Even if he did see him with there is no telling if could actually throw the damn ball with any kind of accuracy.

I keep hearing this whine about how Jay has better weapons around him. My ass he does. His offensive weapons in the passing game but the running game consistent? Answer is: No. Did Jake have a defense that gave up back to back years of 400 plus total points? Answer is no. In fact Jake actually did have better team around him than Jay has.

if Jake saw Eddie Royal wide open, he'd have floated a wounded duck up there, and it woulda been picked off anyway. :rolleyes:

topscribe
01-31-2009, 09:30 PM
We are still talking about won-loss.

Okay, so Jake was a golfer. Sorry, I thought he played football. :coffee:

-----

broncophan
01-31-2009, 10:09 PM
This is all Jake can do, is run his hole. He's a quitter, he's a loser, he's a poor sport, and he's a failure. he took the Cardinals to the playoffs once, and the Broncos three times (more like our defense and our running game did). Out of his 10 years in the league? 2 playoff wins, 4 playoff appearances, 4 playoff losses.

sure he had a good regular season record of 40-18 with the Broncos, but what was his record at Arizona???

let's see here

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PlumJa00.htm

Jake Plummer in Arizona by the numbers.
1997 - 4-8
1998 - 9-7 (playoff appearance, 1 victory, 1 loss)
1999 - 3-8
2000 - 3-11
2001 - 7-9
2002 - 5-11

Total Record in Arizona (31 wins - 54 losses) which translates to a winning percentage of 36.47%

With Denver
2003 - 9-2 (playoff loss to Colts)
2004 - 10 - 6 (playoff loss to Colts)
2005 - 13-3 (1 playoff victory, 1 loss to Steelers <---- Plummer singlehandedly lost this game with 2 picks, and 2 fumbles).
2006 - 7-4 (benched after the 11th game of the season)

with Denver he was 40-18.

Overall he was 71-72. not even .500 ball for a span of 10 years. not to mention he threw 143 Interceptions in 10 years, and averaged 1 interception for every game he played. he also fumbled the ball 143 times. which is good for 2 turnovers per game. If that ladies and gentleman doesn't constitute a L-O-S-E-R, then I sure as hell don't know what does.

his playoff record? 2-4 which is good for 33.3% winning percentage in the playoffs.

overall record?

73-76...still a L-O-S-E-R.

Bottom line, if Plummer had played this year and last year, he'd have just about the same record as Cutler over the last 2 years, and I bet he'd have thrown almost twice as many interceptions as Cutler did.

Jake is only as good as the talent that surrounds him. It's evident in the contrasts between his time in Arizona and his time in Denver.

Our defense made him what he was. Mike Shanahan made him as good as he could ever hope to be, and sadly the 2005 AFC Championship Game, was as far as Jake was gonna be able to take us.

Not to mention his attitude towards the fans, his attitude off the field, his attitude when he faced adverse situations (I.E. the car wreck in Denver with another motorist), how he dealt with the media.

Especially his commitment to training in the offseason. He missed OTA's, he rarely studied his playbook, he didn't try to make himself better, he just left that up to Shanahan, which is why we were so limited on offense all the time.

when the going got tough, and he got benched, instead of earning his job back, he gave up and he quit, like only a L-O-S-E-R would. He's a little crybaby ***** who gave up and ran away when things didn't go his way.

Benching Plummer was the best thing Shanahan ever did in the Post John Elway era, even if we didn't make the playoffs the last 3 years. It was a sacrifice worth making, because to see that L-O-S-E-R singlehandedly choke another playoff game away would have been more than i could bear. I'd rather not make the playoffs, than go to the playoffs and have a L-O-S-E-R like Jake the Fake piss the game away for us singlehandedly.

Oh and I'd also like to mention, that had it not been for Champ Bailey's INT Pick 6 of Tom Brady in the 2005 Playoff Game, we'd have never made it to the AFC Championship Game, it wasn't anything Jake the Fake did.






what good does it do to get to the playoffs if you don't get to the Big Game, and win it all? None.



nice post.



if Jake saw Eddie Royal wide open, he'd have floated a wounded duck up there, and it woulda been picked off anyway. :rolleyes:

"I'd rather not make the playoffs than go to the playoffs"...???????

Not another one.............to rather have your favorite team not go to the playoffs, than go to the playoffs and lose.......makes absolutely no sense.

Playoff experience would have done Cutler and the broncos a world of good this year......even if it would have been one and done...

Shazam!
01-31-2009, 10:19 PM
Some of these posts are hilarious. I can't believe after all these years there is still a Jake divide.

broncophan
01-31-2009, 10:24 PM
Some of these posts are hilarious. I can't believe after all these years there is still a Jake divide.


I don't see it as a Jake divide.............I see it as a looooong transition to a kid qb learning how to be an nfl qb......and trying to learn how to help lead his team to more wins than losses.

Have fun at the pro bowl kid......your stats were good....

topscribe
01-31-2009, 10:26 PM
Some of these posts are hilarious. I can't believe after all these years there is still a Jake divide.

:whoknows: It's offseason. Guess people are bored. :laugh:

-----

TXBRONC
01-31-2009, 10:56 PM
Here is what I don't get about this continuing debate:

What makes less sense? Giving one QB all the credit for wins with a Top10 defense.......or one QB all the blame for loses with the second worst defense in Denver Broncos history?

Some people are doing both, and that's beyond stupid.......

Sad but true. :sad:

Hawgdriver
02-01-2009, 12:03 AM
Jake won us games. Jay is a great quarterback. Shanny was a great coach. Jake seems to have some angst.

I hope our new coach makes this drama seem trivial.

ktrain
02-01-2009, 12:06 AM
OK....stupidity reigns....

If the offense controls...


DEFENSIVE numbers get better.

40-18

Told ya then

Go ahead....defend your pathetic position.

Jake was better.

When will you listen ??

What has your QB done for me lately ??

JAKE WAS BETTER.

Jake's record in Arizona (with a _fense similar to _envers the past two years and no running game......31 - 51

IMO this is a much better comparison of Jake to Jay. I would be surprised if the talent Jay has had the past two years is even AS GOOD as the Cardinals teams of 97-02.

I think you take Jay off the team the past two years and you are LUCKY to win 5 games, but likely win 2 or 3

Jay >>>>> Jake hands down

guitarj
02-01-2009, 12:09 AM
Hahaha.... This is great. All of this, by the same people (mostly) on Broncomania 2 years ago. I have been lurking for some time, finally decided to chime in. Good to see you all.

Jake wars....Yay!!

Bozo Jr.
02-01-2009, 12:35 AM
He does Boz. Marshall (104), Royal (91), Stokley (49), Scheffler (40), Graham (32) and four other receivers with 10 or more receptions.

After he had locked on to them for five seconds. Haaa! J/K I love Cutty as much as everyone, but a look off, or a check down would be nice from time to time.

Bozo Jr.
02-01-2009, 12:38 AM
No, we saved it for his 4 turnover performance in the AFC Championship game.

Concerning the "finger incident" (you say it was tipped - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt), perhaps it had more to do with the fact that it was his 6th INT in two games with ZERO TDs.

By the way. The finger? 2004. The 13-3 TEAM record? 2005.

:coffee:

Ya the flu sucks doesn't it!

topscribe
02-01-2009, 12:45 AM
If he cant keep his mouth shut, he doesnt deserve a break. He deserves all the pounding he gets. And you can go back to flipping off the fans. Plummer is/was an idiot of the highest order and, true to form, doesnt realize it. The guy should be thanking Shanahan.


If I remember correctly, Jake gave the bird to the fans after he was booed, it was a tipped pass. I repeat....A Tipped Pass. That's no reason to boo your QB. I'll bet you weren't complaining when we were in the AFC Championship at 13-3!

By the way, were all sick of your Spags avatar.


No, we saved it for his 4 turnover performance in the AFC Championship game.

Concerning the "finger incident" (you say it was tipped - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt), perhaps it had more to do with the fact that it was his 6th INT in two games with ZERO TDs.

By the way. The finger? 2004. The 13-3 TEAM record? 2005.

:coffee:

The finger? 4˝ years ago.

Let's get over it, shall we?

-----

Lonestar
02-01-2009, 02:04 AM
A scary concept is all the mikey lovers can't figure it out, he was fired for cause..

A great X & O's guy was very innovative when he got here had some great talent for a few years and after that was above average not more no less.

Pats love affair with him faded when he was unable to "reload each year had get to the playoffs"..
Instead of rebuilding and taking the lumps it was always "we are two or three players away from getting to the Superbowl that is our goal every year"..

Well folks he is gone and we are rebuilding.. fact of life.. time to get over the dearly departed and embrace the new guy that has ONE hell of a tasks rebuilding a defense from practically NADA..

I love all the hate and venom that spilled out when Jake makes a comment about why he thought he was fired..

How many other players that were here had comments about mikey after moving on.. one I remember was "the little man".. how many decent players wound up in mikeys doghouse and were gone....

Sorry I lost it for him 4-5 years ago.. not sorry at all to see him leave.. It can only get better..

A real sad commentary IMHO..

Northman
02-01-2009, 02:26 AM
Jake won us games. Jay is a great quarterback. Shanny was a great coach. Jake seems to have some angst.

I hope our new coach makes this drama seem trivial.


Best post of the day.

Shazam!
02-01-2009, 02:28 AM
Dead on accurate in every word Jr. I agree 100% in all.

omac
02-01-2009, 04:17 AM
Just by the facts ...

Pre-Shanahan, Jake didn't only have bad stats, but he also had a losing record.

With Shanahan, his stats got better, and his teams won more than he ever has in his entire career.

If you say Jake was a good quarterback (and he was), then he owes a lot of his success to Shanahan's coaching and the system and team Shanahan surrounded him with.

Yet what does Jake do? He doesn't acknowledge or appreciate how much Shanahan's helped him become a much better player, and any success he's had with the Broncos. Instead, he takes every opportunity to dump on Shanahan.

Bottom line, that is Jake Plummer.

I've appreciated what he was able to contribute to the Broncos, but what he's doing now just makes him look like an ungrateful, spoiled brat. When he doesn't acknowledge how much Shanahan has made him a better player, he just looks like a fool. He should stop. He's not hurting Shanahan public image, but his own.

SoCalImport
02-01-2009, 07:53 AM
Jake won us games. Jay is a great quarterback. Shanny was a great coach. Jake seems to have some angst.

I hope our new coach makes this drama seem trivial.

What drama...Denvers old QBs opinion? I'd be concerned if it's even on McCoaches radar.

topscribe
02-01-2009, 11:18 AM
Just by the facts ...

Pre-Shanahan, Jake didn't only have bad stats, but he also had a losing record.

With Shanahan, his stats got better, and his teams won more than he ever has in his entire career.

If you say Jake was a good quarterback (and he was), then he owes a lot of his success to Shanahan's coaching and the system and team Shanahan surrounded him with.

Yet what does Jake do? He doesn't acknowledge or appreciate how much Shanahan's helped him become a much better player, and any success he's had with the Broncos. Instead, he takes every opportunity to dump on Shanahan.

Bottom line, that is Jake Plummer.

I've appreciated what he was able to contribute to the Broncos, but what he's doing now just makes him look like an ungrateful, spoiled brat. When he doesn't acknowledge how much Shanahan has made him a better player, he just looks like a fool. He should stop. He's not hurting Shanahan public image, but his own.

What is Jake doing now? I'm not sure of the circumstances of his comment,
but I would venture a guess that the press contacted him and asked him,
and he provided his answer. I don't think he's conducting a campaign, is he?

I heard some of it from the other side of the LOS, too, in Champ. While he
didn't criticize Shanny directly, Champ did imply that some of the team was
not giving their all. If that is the case, then some of it does have to go back
to the coach's effectiveness.

I was, and am, a big fan of Shanny's. I've gotten into it with others here on
this board, standing up for him, pointing out his great drafts the last three
years. But maybe there is some truth to what Jake said. Maybe the team had
gotten calloused to Shanny's message and he had lost some effectiveness in
motivation.

When a team with Denver's talent . . . and Denver does have talent . . . can't
manage more than a .500 record over three years, including meltdowns in the
last few games in the last two, something's got to be wrong, either in the
motivation or schemes, or both, and certainly in execution. Who's fault is that?

-----

claymore
02-01-2009, 11:26 AM
What is Jake doing now? I'm not sure of the circumstances of his comment,
but I would venture a guess that the press contacted him and asked him,
and he provided his answer. I don't think he's conducting a campaign, is he?

I heard some of it from the other side of the LOS, too, in Champ. While he
didn't criticize Shanny directly, Champ did imply that some of the team was
not giving their all. If that is the case, then some of it does have to go back
to the coach's effectiveness.

I was, and am, a big fan of Shanny's. I've gotten into it with others here on
this board, standing up for him, pointing out his great drafts the last three
years. But maybe there is some truth to what Jake said. Maybe the team had
gotten calloused to Shanny's message and he had lost some effectiveness in
motivation.

When a team with Denver's talent . . . and Denver does have talent . . . can't
manage more than a .500 record over three years, including meltdowns in the
last few games in the last two, something's got to be wrong, either in the
motivation or schemes, or both, and certainly in execution. Who's fault is that?

-----
I felt so dirty agreeing with Jake. It felt like having similar political beliefs as Cleavland Rocks.

scott.475
02-01-2009, 01:22 PM
I just don't understand why they keep going back to Plummer for his opinions. I truly get the sense that he is the kind of guy that has to find a way to complain no matter the circumstance. I liked him okay while he was here, but I don't think any of us honestly believe he could have delivered us the big game. Maybe a lot of people have a very short memory, but we had to totally revamp and really simplify the offense because Jake would not make himself a student of the game. Well, yeah, we did have that one champions run season, but it did not take long for opposing teams to expose our super simple play action offense, compounded by Jake's unique ability to implode...and now they are going to him like he is some kind of expert?

Honestly, I was a little relieved to see Shanny go, I had already decided that he would almost certainly be fired next year, but for the press to keep going back to Plummer, who is amazingly bitter at the man who did all kinds of things to try to make him (Jake) a success, is just stupid. I am continuously amazed at the laziness of so-called journalists any more.

Northman
02-01-2009, 01:53 PM
Maybe a lot of people have a very short memory, but we had to totally revamp and really simplify the offense because Jake would not make himself a student of the game. Well, yeah, we did have that one champions run season, but it did not take long for opposing teams to expose our super simple play action offense, compounded by Jake's unique ability to implode...and now they are going to him like he is some kind of expert?



Very true. All i know is, when the Chiefs started to figure out our bootlegs on a regular basis (they were the biggest suckers for it) than i knew it was time to do something different at that position and in the game calling. Shanahan made a run and almost got the SB with Plummer at the helm but it wasnt enough in the end.

rcsodak
02-01-2009, 08:55 PM
That's like comparing apples and oranges...Jay was usually playing from behind and forced to win the game with his arm whereas Jake was strictly to manage the game and not turn the ball over.

HUH? Why? Because they had such a strong defense?

You mean like the game against Vick and the Falcons?

If what you say is true, then Jake wouldn't have passed Elway's passing record.

Whether ya'll like it or not, Jake was a great pickup, in between 'franchise' qb's! He won games with his arm and his feet. And he actually improved, by going all those games without throwing any int's. How many games has cutler gone without one?

rcsodak
02-01-2009, 09:08 PM
A douche bag that had the benefit of playing on a team with a top-10 defense in points allowed - EVERY SEASON HE WAS HERE!! The defense over Jay's two years as a starter was ranked 28th and 30th in points allowed.

:coffee:

Oy....talk about 'spinning', mtn. ;)

I think we can all agree that whether or not the defense showed up as a "top 10" on paper, that's about where it ended.

It's called smoke-n-mirrors. And back then, I think you were agreeing it was, iirc? ;)

They'd make teams 1-dimensional by getting the early leads, and have pretty much always been a d that gave up yards between the 20's.

Cutler comes from a Vandy team that wasn't a winner, and he has always had the propensity, for whatever reason *excuse*, to give up the ball. Until he changes that, he'll always be nothing more than a 'rocket-armed qb', along with the likes of Jeff George.

rcsodak
02-01-2009, 09:11 PM
Jake got his pink slip today from the Idaho County Special Ed Handball League.

Take his place? :coffee:

rcsodak
02-01-2009, 09:14 PM
You know what gets me? I have been on the other side of the argument from
you about Jake ever since the argument began, as you know. So I can make
this criticism honestly:

Some of those who have argued that Jake's losses were TEAM losses are the
ones who point to Cutler's W-L and failure to get into the playoffs. I like to
see consistency, even when it's on my side of the argument . . .

-----

And then there's those guys that dumped on Jake, saying the team won "despite of" him.

Funny how the team is losing now, "despite of" Jay. :coffee:

rcsodak
02-01-2009, 09:34 PM
If he cant keep his mouth shut, he doesnt deserve a break. He deserves all the pounding he gets. And you can go back to flipping off the fans. Plummer is/was an idiot of the highest order and, true to form, doesnt realize it. The guy should be thanking Shanahan.

Why should he "keep his mouth shut"? He didn't go out looking for a microphone....he was searched out and asked questions.

Since when was it wrong for somebody to say what they feel? The same can be said, I guess, about TPryce. Players tend to more often than not, play with their emotions on their sleeves. It's hard not to when they play with so much on the field.

I admire Jake for the way he played the game...how he played for his friend, Tilman, and going out like he did. He gave his all on the field, and was a leader! He stood up for his convictions, regarding Tilman and the sticker, and he said he was not going to play again, and he held true to his word. He's again doing what he loves to do - competing! He's still active with his foundation, and he's helping out those that need it.

I imagine if he'd have just said "no comment", and walked away, the jake-haters on the boards would have found a problem with that, as well.

Right, mtn? :D

rcsodak
02-01-2009, 09:43 PM
Jake, the forum topic, that keeps on keepin on ...

And who else to start it. :coffee:

rcsodak
02-01-2009, 09:49 PM
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


*Edit*

Oh and by the way, when your going to make a statement that the only thing that matters is winning and it doesnt have anything to do with surrounding talent then dont forget to add the rest of Jake's career winning percentage to your statement. Jake was 69-67 overall. WOW, mind blowing isnt it? lmao

That makes no sense.

We're talking time with the Broncos.

:rolleyes:

rcsodak
02-01-2009, 09:55 PM
The other thing that bothers me is that Jake wasnt fired, he was demoted and asked to play a team role in helping a young Qb try and mature. But instead Jake pouted and quit on the team. Jake left because he wanted too.

That is so wrong in so many ways.

Did you not see with your own eyes, Jake on the sidelines, after being demoted, being a cheerleader, coaching up cutler?

Did you not read with your own eyes, how his teammates and even shanny, saying how even though jake was upset, he STILL was a team leader?

Jake never gave up on his team.

Requiem / The Dagda
02-01-2009, 10:02 PM
Multi-quote function for the love of God.

rcsodak
02-01-2009, 10:04 PM
One more time *sigh*, let's get over this crap about what Jay hasn't won.
This is not tennis or bowling: it is a 53-man game. Before we address his W-L,
let's see him with a defense that is not the worst in the league. Once that
happens, I rest assured Jay will be a perennial playoff QB.

-----

Well, top, maybe if he'd quit throwing picks, and having so many 3-n-outs, the defense wouldn't be so gassed. Even a top notch D, having to constantly be on the field, would five up yards/points. No?

Broncos Mtnman
02-01-2009, 10:05 PM
Oy....talk about 'spinning', mtn. ;)

I think we can all agree that whether or not the defense showed up as a "top 10" on paper, that's about where it ended.

It's called smoke-n-mirrors. And back then, I think you were agreeing it was, iirc? ;)

They'd make teams 1-dimensional by getting the early leads, and have pretty much always been a d that gave up yards between the 20's.

Cutler comes from a Vandy team that wasn't a winner, and he has always had the propensity, for whatever reason *excuse*, to give up the ball. Until he changes that, he'll always be nothing more than a 'rocket-armed qb', along with the likes of Jeff George.


The defense was ranked top-10 in POINTS ALLOWED. That's not something that involves smoke and mirrors. Sorry....

Your last paragraph could be said (and was) of Elway and Stanford. He came from a losing program and he gave up the ball alot (even more than Cutler). I'd say your last line should have said, "he'll always be nothing more than a 'rocket-armed qb,' along with the likes of John Elway.


Bottom line.....

The Denver defense was far superior to the defense Cutler has had to play with. To say otherwise is the REAL spin, but hey, you and WTM can work on that one.

:coffee:

rcsodak
02-01-2009, 10:07 PM
We broke down the statistics on Jake over on the other board, and he had
more pocket pass plays that one might think, and he was more successful
than one might think. I'm not saying he was great at it, but that he wasn't as
bad as the impression some have.

My point is that it doesn't matter whether a QB can read the whole field if he
cannot reach it. And most QBs can't.

-----

Plus, when your HC decides to UTILIZE your mobility, and the rollout, that tends to cut the field in half.

Unless, of course, you're cutler, and you decide to throw across the middle and get picked. Even though EVERY coach, from midget on up, coaches NOT to do that.

Broncos Mtnman
02-01-2009, 10:07 PM
Jake never gave up on his team.

Not according to Shanny. Jake made no extra effort during the week and he treated offseason workouts like something that was beneath his "abilities."

Sorry, but Jake only thought about Jake.

:coffee:

rcsodak
02-01-2009, 10:11 PM
On reading the field, this is from Brandon Marshall and what he says of Jay ....

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/broncos/2008-09-23-insider_N.htm

Yeah....I s'pose otherwise he'd have said "I wish Jake was still my QB". :rolleyes:

Den21vsBal19
02-01-2009, 10:15 PM
That is so wrong in so many ways.

Did you not see with your own eyes, Jake on the sidelines, after being demoted, being a cheerleader, coaching up cutler?

Did you not read with your own eyes, how his teammates and even shanny, saying how even though jake was upset, he STILL was a team leader?

Jake never gave up on his team.
I'm pretty sure that during one of the games after he got demoted, the commentators said that Jake had been the one going round the locker room, trying to fire the team up.

Jake only gave up when he decided to take hi money & his health back home instead of to Tampa.............

rcsodak
02-01-2009, 10:18 PM
Since win-loss records are the ONLY measurement of success for some of the St. Jake crowd.

St. Jake's playoff record in Denver was 1-3. Seems he's pretty pathetic when he's in the playoffs.....

:coffee:

At least he's been there. And yes, even with an AZ team. :elefant:

Watchthemiddle
02-01-2009, 10:18 PM
Oy....talk about 'spinning', mtn. ;)

I think we can all agree that whether or not the defense showed up as a "top 10" on paper, that's about where it ended.

It's called smoke-n-mirrors. And back then, I think you were agreeing it was, iirc? ;)

They'd make teams 1-dimensional by getting the early leads, and have pretty much always been a d that gave up yards between the 20's.

Cutler comes from a Vandy team that wasn't a winner, and he has always had the propensity, for whatever reason *excuse*, to give up the ball. Until he changes that, he'll always be nothing more than a 'rocket-armed qb', along with the likes of Jeff George.


ROFL...:laugh::laugh:

Jeff George....:laugh:

RC, you nor Jake has been the first to call Jay the next Jeff George. If you lived here, you could listen to the local talk shows saying the same thing. And thats Denver Sports Talk...the likes of Former All Pro Defensive End two time Super Bowl champ Alfred Williams. Just this morning on 104.3 the fan, the host was saying the same thing. Rocket Arm, all the tools, but not a leader and makes bad decisions.

Our assessment of Jay is not the only two on the planet. Denver media and the people that call in agree...:D

:coffee:

TXBRONC
02-01-2009, 10:21 PM
Plus, when your HC decides to UTILIZE your mobility, and the rollout, that tends to cut the field in half.

Unless, of course, you're cutler, and you decide to throw across the middle and get picked. Even though EVERY coach, from midget on up, coaches NOT to do that.

John did it all the time.

Watchthemiddle
02-01-2009, 10:26 PM
John did it all the time.

John found the open WR..not the 3 wide open Defensive players

Shazam!
02-01-2009, 10:29 PM
I bet whenever Jake threw an INT, somehow it wasn't his fault WTM.

Jake had a much more respected running game than Cutler has the last two seasons, and the defense while not great, amazingly was like the '85 Bears compared to now. It's so pathetic.

TXBRONC
02-01-2009, 10:29 PM
John found the open WR..not the 3 wide open Defensive players

Oh yeah John never threw interceptions doing that. Right. :coffee:

omac
02-01-2009, 10:37 PM
John did it all the time.

Also, when Jaws was covering a game for the Broncos and Cutler did it successfully, he mentioned people say you don't do that when you don't have the arm to do that, but Jay can with his arm and his mechanics.

TXBRONC
02-01-2009, 10:41 PM
Also, when Jaws was covering a game for the Broncos and Cutler did it successfully, he mentioned people say you don't do that when you don't have the arm to do that, but Jay can with his arm and his mechanics.

By this time in John's career he had more total interceptions and he also had 20 interception season.

rcsodak
02-01-2009, 10:49 PM
Just by the facts ...

Pre-Shanahan, Jake didn't only have bad stats, but he also had a losing record.

With Shanahan, his stats got better, and his teams won more than he ever has in his entire career.

If you say Jake was a good quarterback (and he was), then he owes a lot of his success to Shanahan's coaching and the system and team Shanahan surrounded him with.

Yet what does Jake do? He doesn't acknowledge or appreciate how much Shanahan's helped him become a much better player, and any success he's had with the Broncos. Instead, he takes every opportunity to dump on Shanahan.

Bottom line, that is Jake Plummer.

I've appreciated what he was able to contribute to the Broncos, but what he's doing now just makes him look like an ungrateful, spoiled brat. When he doesn't acknowledge how much Shanahan has made him a better player, he just looks like a fool. He should stop. He's not hurting Shanahan public image, but his own.

It doesn't look like the reporter asked him what shanny did for his career, but rather, his feelings on shanny getting canned.
And Jake gave his personal opinion.

He didn't think Shanny was as motivating as he used to be - his opinion!
Like a majority of fans thought, *from polls I saw* , shanny needed to go because he couldn't lead the team any longer.

Only jake-haters could twist/spin this into a jake-hates-shanny thread.

Requiem / The Dagda
02-01-2009, 10:58 PM
Jake Plummer has been and always will be a loser.

Northman
02-01-2009, 11:00 PM
Jake Plummer has been and always will be a loser.

End Thread.

Requiem / The Dagda
02-01-2009, 11:02 PM
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f150/hartcavalcade/jake.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f150/hartcavalcade/jayjake.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f150/hartcavalcade/frankenjakeavatar.jpg

Watchthemiddle
02-01-2009, 11:18 PM
It doesn't look like the reporter asked him what shanny did for his career, but rather, his feelings on shanny getting canned.
And Jake gave his personal opinion.

He didn't think Shanny was as motivating as he used to be - his opinion!
Like a majority of fans thought, *from polls I saw* , shanny needed to go because he couldn't lead the team any longer.

Only jake-haters could twist/spin this into a jake-hates-shanny thread.

Haters twist/spin this interview? No way.....come on RC...that would never happen. Just like this interview is soooooo hard to believe in the first place.

A QB or NFL player that doesn't get along with his HC or vice versa. We here in Denver have NEVER seen that before...*cough Elway vs. Reeves cough*

This is all news to some of us apparently.....well atleast those with OCD and Jake man crushes.

:coffee:

Broncos Mtnman
02-01-2009, 11:31 PM
John found the open WR..not the 3 wide open Defensive players

You're such a joke. At least state REAL facts.

Jay has NEVER thrown more interceptions than touchdowns. Elway did it 2 out of his first three seasons as a starter.

Elway
1983 - 7 TDs / 14 INTs (10 games)
1984 - 18 TDs / 15 INTs
1985 - 22 TDs / 23 INTs

Cutler
2006 - 9 TDs / 5 INTs (5 games)
2007 - 20 TDs / 14 INTs
2008 - 25 TDs / 18 INTs

_____________________________________

But, let's look at the same number of games played. Jay has only started 37 games, so let's compare that to John's first 37....

Elway
1101 attempts / 45 TDs / 41 INTs
He threw one TD for every 24.47 attempts and one INT for every 26.85 attempts.

Cutler
1220 attempts / 54 TDs / 37 INTs
He threw one TD for every 22.59 attempts and one INT for every 32.97 attempts.

______________________________________

Completion percentage

Elway
1983 - 47.5
1984 - 56.3
1985 - 54.0

Cutler
2006 - 59.1
2007 - 63.6
2008 - 62.3

______________________________________

Conclusion?

Not only did John NOT find the open receiver as you claim, but he also found the three defenders more often than Cutler.

Thanks for playing.... :coffee:

Lonestar
02-01-2009, 11:33 PM
Just by the facts ...

Pre-Shanahan, Jake didn't only have bad stats, but he also had a losing record.

With Shanahan, his stats got better, and his teams won more than he ever has in his entire career.

If you say Jake was a good quarterback (and he was), then he owes a lot of his success to Shanahan's coaching and the system and team Shanahan surrounded him with.

Yet what does Jake do? He doesn't acknowledge or appreciate how much Shanahan's helped him become a much better player, and any success he's had with the Broncos. Instead, he takes every opportunity to dump on Shanahan.
Bottom line, that is Jake Plummer.

I've appreciated what he was able to contribute to the Broncos, but what he's doing now just makes him look like an ungrateful, spoiled brat. When he doesn't acknowledge how much Shanahan has made him a better player, he just looks like a fool. He should stop. He's not hurting Shanahan public image, but his own.



Now perhaps there was something other than this where Jake dumped on mikey and if there is I'm sorry for missing it but I do not recall any "dumping" perhaps someone can post some of them?

Other than refusing to report to TPA after a trade IIRC nothing else was said..

guitarj
02-01-2009, 11:45 PM
Common guys!! I know I was once labled a hater. Jake was ok at one time, as he was one the better options we had when we got him from FA. But....do you seriously believe Jake would have survived this season, or even the last two with the weak running game and with one of, if not the worst defense in the league?

How many times did we pass this year? What ALWAYS happened when Jake HAD to stand on the pocket and throw?

Lonestar
02-01-2009, 11:49 PM
Common guys!! I know I was once labled a hater. Jake was ok at one time, as he was one the better options we had when we got him from FA. But....do you seriously believe Jake would have survived this season, or even the last two with the weak running game and with one of, if not the worst defense in the league?

How many times did we pass this year? What ALWAYS happened when Jake HAD to stand on the pocket and throw?


he was running for his life.. but then it could have been said that OLINE was not designed for drop back passing either..

Play action and rollout passing game..

guitarj
02-01-2009, 11:54 PM
Jake did well on roll outs, I will give him that, but Jake could not pass from the Pocket even when he had time

topscribe
02-02-2009, 12:31 AM
Jake did well on roll outs, I will give him that, but Jake could not pass from the Pocket even when he had time

That's not completely true. On the Mania board, I remember someone putting
up the stats on Jake's passing from the pocket, to the far right, near right,
middle, near left, and far left. As I said in a previous post, while he could not
be considered great at it, he was better than what one may think.

-----

omac
02-02-2009, 12:31 AM
Well, top, maybe if he'd quit throwing picks, and having so many 3-n-outs, the defense wouldn't be so gassed. Even a top notch D, having to constantly be on the field, would five up yards/points. No?

We didn't have that many 3 and outs. We had 31 3-n-outs in 166 offensive plays, which is 19%. The Patriots had 29 3-n-outs in 176 plays, which is 17% (they also had two 2-n-punts, which would bring them to 18%).

So we had to punt once every 5.35 plays, while the Pats had to punt once every 5.6 plays. If you count that we didn't have any consistent RB to lean on during the season, that doesn't sound too bad at all.

(edit) Sorry, meant offensive possessions, not plays.

Broncos Mtnman
02-02-2009, 12:34 AM
Now perhaps there was something other than this where Jake dumped on mikey and if there is I'm sorry for missing it but I do not recall any "dumping" perhaps someone can post some of them?

Other than refusing to report to TPA after a trade IIRC nothing else was said..

Actually, there was....

The Real Reason Plummer was Replaced (http://broncotalk.net/2008/09/the-real-reason-plummer-was-replaced/)

Stefan Fatsis’s book “A Few Seconds of Panic” has revealed several interesting insights into the Broncos organization as they prepared and played in the 2006 season. The Denver Post has been promoting the book by printing sections of it in the paper. The current installment centers on Jake Plummer and his eventual benching.

The most significant issue that surfaces in the text is Mike Shanahan’s number one pet peeve - missing off-season workouts. Jake Plummer only made 85% of his off-season workouts that year (the lowest on the team). For a team captain and leader of the offense to miss ANY of the workouts in Denver is nearly as bad for your career as lying to Coach Shanahan’s face. 85% is practically a slap in the face to the team and great players like Rod Smith.

In Plummer’s case, he not only gave up $200k in workout bonuses, he JUST didn’t seem to understand why this was important to Shanahan and the team. In Fatsis’s account of his post-benching conversation with Plummer, Jake says this:

“Yeah, I missed some workouts. And you know what?” Jake lowers his head to the table and talks directly into my tape recorder. “Mike Shanahan, you can kiss my [ass] for being pissed at that. You can quote that. I made 85% of my workouts and he’s still mad about it. He still brought that up. Give me a break. That’s the dumbest [damn] thing on earth…. Well, if that’s the reason (I was benched), then I’m glad I didn’t make those. Because I don’t want to be here every day in the off-season.”

Well, there you go folks…

I loved watching Plummer play. I liked his fit in Denver’s system, but blowing off the off-season workouts and posting the lowest participation on the team is completely unacceptable from your QB. The great players at that position are the first ones to arrive and the last ones to leave. And the fact that Plummer couldn’t understand that (and was even pissed about it) makes me now understand the cold shoulder Shanahan showed him during that season - specifically related to the not telling Plummer of his benching personally.

I’m sure letplummerplay.com will have a different spin on this issue, but I think this puts to rest the real reasons behind Plummer’s benching. I can see now that Shanahan could not allow another off-season of partial participation from his starting QB. From Plummer’s own statements, he simply didn’t want to be there every day, and that attitude can have a devastating effect on the morale of the young team Shanahan was building.

topscribe
02-02-2009, 12:45 AM
Which made it the best thing that Jake retired, Mtnman. His heart was never
in it anymore . . . in fact, I don't believe his heart really was ever in it. Either
that, or he was irreparably damaged when with the Cardinals. He played
because he had enough talent to get him through (and he did have a lot of
talent) and because it made him wealthy.

But I don't consider him a "quitter" because he retired. I feel he just faced
reality, and decided he didn't want to play football anymore. :whoknows:

-----

BroncoTech
02-02-2009, 12:58 AM
I would tend to agree with Jake on most of the points brought up in the thread. Shanahan's firing was overdue, he should have been toast after the Raider's home loss. He's not a motivator of men and his pressers were becoming just an assortment of cliches to explain the unexplainable.

And what's with Shanny's dog house? How many successful corporations utilize this doghouse system where players are punished without any explanation. It's time for this behind the scenes disparity to see the light of day. Plenty of ex-Broncos had issues with Shanny and the doghouse system.

During the off season you can only hold conditioning workouts and Jakes conditioning was never an issue. Babe Ruth used to set down his cig and hit a home run. Jerry Rice ran the hill, but Jerry never considered it a slap on the face if his team mates didn't run the hill.

Watchthemiddle
02-02-2009, 01:00 AM
First three years as starers in the league...

John - 27-13
Jay - 17-20


And ...........














Drum roll please


Jake 15-21 with the AZ Cardinals.

Jay only has 2 more wins with the Broncos through 3 seasons then Jake had with the dreadful Cardinals.

Oh and by the way, made the playoffs with those Cardinals in his second season




THere is some stats for you


Thanks for playing

:coffee:

Shazam!
02-02-2009, 01:18 AM
The Broncos got continually crushed in 1994 because their defense couldn't stop anybody regardless of what John Elway did. It was eerily similar to this season. I guess he sucked too.

I can't believe some of the posts here. If the Broncos had even a decent defense, they would've won the AFC West in November, could've been a 3 seed and we'd be talking about how Denver has a realistic shot at getting to the Super Bowl. Then we'd be talking about (regardless of the postseason outcome,) what Shanahan will do to make the Broncos better in 2009, because he wouldn't have gotten fired.

Jake's sympathizers are just grabbing for straws here. Especially you WTM, your stats are meaningless and arguement pointless. You're living in the past and wasting time just arguing about the past.

I'd like to see what Jake's 'winning record' would look like if his team fielded one of the worst (or arguably THE WORST) defenses in the NFL... That may have happened at Arizona.

guitarj
02-02-2009, 01:24 AM
It will never end...?? Cutler is a talented QB. He has more tools and is more committed than Jake ever had or was, and the offense is young, talented, and all returning.

Cutler and this offense will never have a winning record with the defense we have fielded the past 2 years. It just doesnt matter how good they are....we need a REAL defense!!

omac
02-02-2009, 01:38 AM
Now perhaps there was something other than this where Jake dumped on mikey and if there is I'm sorry for missing it but I do not recall any "dumping" perhaps someone can post some of them?

Other than refusing to report to TPA after a trade IIRC nothing else was said..

In another recent article that was posted on the other teams forums, he admitted to smiling when Shanahan was fired, and gave reasons like he didn't like getting shouted at during practice, and stuff like that (like that doesn't happen to every athlete since highschool).

In the Fatsis' book from broncos_mtnman's link, which happened a few years ago, he shouted that Shanahan could kiss his ass, explaining that he was glad he had very limited participation in the offseason workouts.

The guy didn't want to work to get better, and like topscribe says, maybe his heart wasn't that into football. He hated it when Shanahan was asking more commitment from him to be a better player (working in the offseason, shouting at him during practice, etc).

The way the fans have treated Plummer despite his contributions to the team may have been very unfair, but Shanahan did make him a much better QB, yet all he says about Shanahan is negative. That's just wrong.

rcsodak
02-02-2009, 05:24 AM
The defense was ranked top-10 in POINTS ALLOWED. That's not something that involves smoke and mirrors. Sorry....

Your last paragraph could be said (and was) of Elway and Stanford. He came from a losing program and he gave up the ball alot (even more than Cutler). I'd say your last line should have said, "he'll always be nothing more than a 'rocket-armed qb,' along with the likes of John Elway.


Bottom line.....

The Denver defense was far superior to the defense Cutler has had to play with. To say otherwise is the REAL spin, but hey, you and WTM can work on that one.

:coffee:

You didn't dispel my point at all, mtn. But we both know that. :laugh:

And always throwing "which-way Elway" into the picture ISN'T going to magically turn cutler into him.....sooooooo sssssorry. :D

rcsodak
02-02-2009, 05:28 AM
John did it all the time.

So that makes it right?

And iirc, elway would roll out to one side, and thrown it all the way to the other sideline, so either his guy caught it or it nobody did.

Cutler? Umm, not so much.

rcsodak
02-02-2009, 05:30 AM
By this time in John's career he had more total interceptions and he also had 20 interception season.

Oy! So that must mean cutler will 'lead the team' to a bunch of blowout losses in the SB's, right?

Oh boy...I can't wait. :rolleyes:

rcsodak
02-02-2009, 05:33 AM
Haters twist/spin this interview? No way.....come on RC...that would never happen. Just like this interview is soooooo hard to believe in the first place.

A QB or NFL player that doesn't get along with his HC or vice versa. We here in Denver have NEVER seen that before...*cough Elway vs. Reeves cough*

This is all news to some of us apparently.....well atleast those with OCD and Jake man crushes.

:coffee:

Yeah, I know, wtm.... right? :D

Northman
02-02-2009, 06:30 AM
But I don't consider him a "quitter" because he retired. I feel he just faced
reality, and decided he didn't want to play football anymore. :whoknows:

-----

I disagree. He didnt want to back up Jay so Denver decided to trade him to Tampa and he when he found out that he had to compete for the starting job there he chose retirement. Certainly his perogative but he wanted the job handed to him and when it became clear that it wasnt going to be he quit. At the end of the day, im glad he's happy being retired. But he should of shown more class than he did when the mic was put in his face. Although i agree with his quote about Shanhan no longer motivating players he probably should of left it at that and thanked Shanhan for the opportunity to even be a part of this team. Not sit there and pile on after the guy gets canned. Thats just tacky. A majority of his success was due to Shanahan whether he wants to admit that or not.

Northman
02-02-2009, 06:36 AM
He has more tools and is more committed than Jake ever had or was,

Thats really what it boils down too. Jake didnt want to do the extra things that it took to be a Champion so therefore he was demoted in favor of someone who was committed.

In-com-plete
02-02-2009, 07:52 AM
As I said in the thread earlier-

"Elway was 16-17 as a Starter when Denver's defense couldn't stop anyone in 1993-94. He put up good numbers and Denver was still a Top 10 NFL offense and a huge passing threat and they still got creamed. I guess he was a frickin' loser too who couldn't win **** (because people compare Jake's 'winning record' to Cutler's losing record after only 2.35 years as a Starter.) The Broncos were dead last in the League vs. the pass and near last (or last) in points allowed. Denver was 30th (PA) in 2008, ahead of only Detroit and St. Louis."

I'd like to see how Jake would have fared if Denver's defense was the worst in the League. That would have been something to see... Actually, no it wouldn't.

People here compare apples and oranges. Not only that you can't defend Shanahan and be a Plummer fan. Shanahan killed his career and stabbed him in the back.

I'd like to see Cutler with Rod, Ashley, & Charlie Adams (our top 3 WRs in '05) and Jeb Putzier & Stephen Alexander (our '05 TE's) instead of Marshall, Royal & Stokley and Graham & Scheffler. Not to mention an o'line that can't pass protect.

That would have been something to see... Actually, no it wouldn't.

omac
02-02-2009, 08:14 AM
I'd like to see Cutler with Rod, Ashley, & Charlie Adams (our top 3 WRs in '05) and Jeb Putzier & Stephen Alexander (our '05 TE's) instead of Marshall, Royal & Stokley and Graham & Scheffler. Not to mention an o'line that can't pass protect.

That would have been something to see... Actually, no it wouldn't.

Actually, in '06, with the same OL and WRs and TEs, Jay scored more TDs and less INTs per game than Jake did. Probably just a coincidence that Scheffler and Marshall only emerged when Jay was the QB. Same coincidence that a supposedly washed up, recently injured Stokley became a factor with the Broncos the next season with Jay. Another great coincidence that Eddie, as a rookie, becomes a major factor immediately, in his first NFL game, with Jay as the QB. Nate Jackson becomes a big contributor before he got injured, just a coincidence. Daniel Graham, relegated to blocker in NE, makes big plays catching. Even journeyman Darrell Jackson in a crowded WR depth chart, he scores a TD with a Jay Cutler pass, another coincidence. Yup, all coincidence, none of that has anything to do with Jay Cutler. :coffee:

No need to bash Plummer; he was a pretty good QB. If you don't see how special Jay Cutler is, you might see yourself as one of the die-hard Norm Nixon fans who were late to get on the Magic Johnson train.

broncofaninfla
02-02-2009, 08:18 AM
Although I have to agree it might have been time for a coaching change, I have to think there is a "sour grapes" element to Plummer's comments.

TXBRONC
02-02-2009, 08:21 AM
So that makes it right?

And iirc, elway would roll out to one side, and thrown it all the way to the other sideline, so either his guy caught it or it nobody did.

Cutler? Umm, not so much.

Obviously your memeory fails you.

TXBRONC
02-02-2009, 08:23 AM
I'd like to see Cutler with Rod, Ashley, & Charlie Adams (our top 3 WRs in '05) and Jeb Putzier & Stephen Alexander (our '05 TE's) instead of Marshall, Royal & Stokley and Graham & Scheffler. Not to mention an o'line that can't pass protect.

That would have been something to see... Actually, no it wouldn't.

Yeah I would like see Cutler with a defense as good as the one we had in 2005.

Den21vsBal19
02-02-2009, 08:51 AM
Just by the facts ...

Pre-Shanahan, Jake didn't only have bad stats, but he also had a losing record.

With Shanahan, his stats got better, and his teams won more than he ever has in his entire career.

If you say Jake was a good quarterback (and he was), then he owes a lot of his success to Shanahan's coaching and the system and team Shanahan surrounded him with.

Yet what does Jake do? He doesn't acknowledge or appreciate how much Shanahan's helped him become a much better player, and any success he's had with the Broncos. Instead, he takes every opportunity to dump on Shanahan.

Bottom line, that is Jake Plummer.

I've appreciated what he was able to contribute to the Broncos, but what he's doing now just makes him look like an ungrateful, spoiled brat. When he doesn't acknowledge how much Shanahan has made him a better player, he just looks like a fool. He should stop. He's not hurting Shanahan public image, but his own.
You could say the same thing about Kubiak & Plummer................with Kube he beat Elway's single season record and got us to the AFCCG................when Kube left :eek:

omac
02-02-2009, 09:16 AM
You could say the same thing about Kubiak & Plummer................with Kube he beat Elway's single season record and got us to the AFCCG................when Kube left :eek:

Could it also be that, as someone posted, he worked hard during the offseason before the '05 season, and didn't during the offseason of the '06 season. No matter, Shanahan was the coach, and obviously by Jake's comments about Shanahan shouting at him, Shanahan was coaching him. Now you're speculating that Shanahan didn't actually have a hand in coaching Jake, when by Jake's recount of events, he did. Jake obviously didn't like getting coached by Shanahan. He didn't like studying and preparing in the offseason either.

Shazam!
02-02-2009, 10:25 AM
I'd like to see Cutler with Rod, Ashley, & Charlie Adams (our top 3 WRs in '05) and Jeb Putzier & Stephen Alexander (our '05 TE's) instead of Marshall, Royal & Stokley and Graham & Scheffler. Not to mention an o'line that can't pass protect.

That would have been something to see... Actually, no it wouldn't.

I'd like to see how Plummer would have fared with one of or arguably the worst defense in the NFL as Cutler has been fortunate enough to have the last two seasons.

Keep trying Plummer lovers. Going on 3 years without Jakey-poo. Move on.

In-com-plete
02-02-2009, 10:43 AM
Actually, in '06, with the same OL and WRs and TEs, Jay scored more TDs and less INTs per game than Jake did. Probably just a coincidence that Scheffler and Marshall only emerged when Jay was the QB. Same coincidence that a supposedly washed up, recently injured Stokley became a factor with the Broncos the next season with Jay. Another great coincidence that Eddie, as a rookie, becomes a major factor immediately, in his first NFL game, with Jay as the QB. Nate Jackson becomes a big contributor before he got injured, just a coincidence. Daniel Graham, relegated to blocker in NE, makes big plays catching. Even journeyman Darrell Jackson in a crowded WR depth chart, he scores a TD with a Jay Cutler pass, another coincidence. Yup, all coincidence, none of that has anything to do with Jay Cutler. :coffee:

No need to bash Plummer; he was a pretty good QB. If you don't see how special Jay Cutler is, you might see yourself as one of the die-hard Norm Nixon fans who were late to get on the Magic Johnson train.

I'm a Cutler fan now. I think he is special. But he's had so much more to work with on the offensive side of the ball.

Back in '06 it wasn't a coincidence Scheffler and Marshall "emerged" as Cutler took over. They were either hurt or Shanahan just held them back until he gave up on the season and pulled Plummer.

And no, it's not a coincidence Cutler had more TDs and less Ints in '06. Considering the pass defenses he faced. He faced the 13th (SD), 16th (Sea), 26th (49ers), 29th (Cards), and the worst (Bengals) pass defenses.

Plus, like I said, Marshall and Scheffler finally saw the field.

The only coincidence I see, is that Darrell Jackson, who's only season with less than 46 catches for 500 yards and 3 TDs (other than '05 when he played in only 6 games) came this year. Why would a WR who had almost 500 catches for almost 7000 yards and 50 TD have such a down year this year?

Could it be because we were freakin loaded at WR this year?

In-com-plete
02-02-2009, 10:47 AM
I'd like to see how Plummer would have fared with one of or arguably the worst defense in the NFL as Cutler has been fortunate enough to have the last two seasons.

Keep trying Plummer lovers. Going on 3 years without Jakey-poo. Move on.

Probably 7-9 then 8-8.

Keep hating Plummer haters. Going on 3 years and you're still hating. Move on.

Overtime
02-02-2009, 10:51 AM
I disagree. He didnt want to back up Jay so Denver decided to trade him to Tampa and he when he found out that he had to compete for the starting job there he chose retirement. Certainly his perogative but he wanted the job handed to him and when it became clear that it wasnt going to be he quit. At the end of the day, im glad he's happy being retired. But he should of shown more class than he did when the mic was put in his face. Although i agree with his quote about Shanhan no longer motivating players he probably should of left it at that and thanked Shanhan for the opportunity to even be a part of this team. Not sit there and pile on after the guy gets canned. Thats just tacky. A majority of his success was due to Shanahan whether he wants to admit that or not.

At the end of the day, I'm glad that piece of trash is no longer in the game of football.

He wasn't dedicated to winning, to this city, to the fans, to the coaches, to his teammates, and he wasn't dedicated to doing what he was paid to do.

Pat Bowlen spent a great deal of money on him, and he pulled this crap. Hell if I was Bowlen I'd have had Shanahan boot his ass off the team after the Thanksgiving Game in 06 at Arrowhead.

I'm patiently awaiting Shanahan to write his memoirs, so we can see the truth come out for real :lol::lol::lol:. Shahanan is gonna blast him up one side of his book and down the other.



Thats really what it boils down too. Jake didnt want to do the extra things that it took to be a Champion so therefore he was demoted in favor of someone who was committed.

amen. he was paid millions of dollars, but he wanted to be "somewhere else, doing something else".


Yeah I would like see Cutler with a defense as good as the one we had in 2005.

don't worry the defense is on the way. get ready, to hold on to your hat, cause it's gonna be a fun ride. :D

topscribe
02-02-2009, 10:59 AM
I disagree. He didnt want to back up Jay so Denver decided to trade him to Tampa and he when he found out that he had to compete for the starting job there he chose retirement. Certainly his perogative but he wanted the job handed to him and when it became clear that it wasnt going to be he quit. At the end of the day, im glad he's happy being retired. But he should of shown more class than he did when the mic was put in his face. Although i agree with his quote about Shanhan no longer motivating players he probably should of left it at that and thanked Shanhan for the opportunity to even be a part of this team. Not sit there and pile on after the guy gets canned. Thats just tacky. A majority of his success was due to Shanahan whether he wants to admit that or not.

No, my friend, Jake didn't quit the Broncos or the Bucs. He quit football. Were
he just pouting because he didn't get the job "handed" to him, he could have
been talked by somebody into coming back. Jake was through with football.
He chose to retire because his heart was not in it. That much is obvious.

Regarding what he said about Shanahan, I'm not taking a position either way,
whether or not it was appropriate. But he was asked, and he responded. I
guess I don't really judge him on that because that is kind of the way I do it,
too. I have been criticized for my sometimes deemed indiscreet candor. So
maybe that is why I have not reacted the same way toward some of either
Jake's or Jay's remarks. I might not always agree with them, but I do admire
their candor.

-----

Overtime
02-02-2009, 11:11 AM
Probably 7-9 then 8-8.

Keep hating Plummer haters. Going on 3 years and you're still hating. Move on.

we would if idiot supporters of his would quit bringing him up.

as far as I'm concerned, he's like Griese, and a little error inkmark in the History of Broncos...gone and definitely forgotten, with no desire to remember anything about that loser.

I can't wait till Kollette comes to her senses and leaves him...he'll probably blame the Broncos for that too. :rolleyes:

topscribe
02-02-2009, 11:19 AM
we would if idiot supporters of his would quit bringing him up.

as far as I'm concerned, he's like Griese, and a little error inkmark in the History of Broncos...gone and definitely forgotten, with no desire to remember anything about that loser.

I can't wait till Kollette comes to her senses and leaves him...he'll probably blame the Broncos for that too. :rolleyes:

I hardly believe they are idiots. JR and WTM (and others), for instance, are
my friends, and I have a high regard for much of what they have posted. I
have disagreed with much of what they have said here, but I do not regard
them as idiots.

Regarding Jake, he was a Bronco. That makes him worth talking about here:
this is a Broncos board. Jake helped to win some games, and he helped to lose
some others.

Moreover, I see no reason to attack his family life. From what I hear, he loves
his family very much, and I have no reason to believe he is not good to them.
We have seen him on the field. We have not seen him in the bedroom, the
kitchen, or the living room. Let's discuss Jake the QB, not Jake the husband,
son, brother, or or father.

-----

Dr Velcro
02-02-2009, 11:29 AM
Isn't Plummer a Lumberjack now?

http://blogs.lvcitylife.com/wp-content/media/2008/07/lumberjack.JPG

Overtime
02-02-2009, 11:30 AM
Isn't Plummer a Lumberjack now?

http://blogs.lvcitylife.com/wp-content/media/2008/07/lumberjack.JPG

more like Lumberjackass.

OB
02-02-2009, 12:11 PM
Its nice to know some things will never change - Jake v Jay - 4eva

In-com-plete
02-02-2009, 12:19 PM
Jake's record in Arizona (with a _fense similar to _envers the past two years and no running game......31 - 51

IMO this is a much better comparison of Jake to Jay. I would be surprised if the talent Jay has had the past two years is even AS GOOD as the Cardinals teams of 97-02.

I think you take Jay off the team the past two years and you are LUCKY to win 5 games, but likely win 2 or 3

Jay >>>>> Jake hands down

Are you even serious? You think the Cards had more talent from 97-02?

Offensive Rushing rankings for the Cards:
'97 - 30th (out of 30)
'98 - 21st (out of 30)
'99 - 29th (out of 31)
'00 - 27th (out of 31)
'01 - 27th (out of 31)
'02 - 15th (out of 32)

Defensive ranking:
'97 - 27th
'98 - 21st
'99 - 22nd
'00 - 30th
'01 - 28th
'02 - 29th

Pro Bowlers:
'97 - Aeneas Williams & Rob Moore
'98 - None
'99 - None
'00 - None
'01 - David Boston
'02 - None

Think again. Plummer had nothing to work with in AZ. Not saying he would have been like Marino or something. Just saying he didn't have squat. No Champ or Marshall or Royal or a TE worth a damn. And his o-line was freakin garbage.

Den21vsBal19
02-02-2009, 12:26 PM
Which made it the best thing that Jake retired, Mtnman. His heart was never
in it anymore . . . in fact, I don't believe his heart really was ever in it. Either
that, or he was irreparably damaged when with the Cardinals. He played
because he had enough talent to get him through (and he did have a lot of
talent) and because it made him wealthy.

But I don't consider him a "quitter" because he retired. I feel he just faced
reality, and decided he didn't want to play football anymore. :whoknows:

-----
That would be the reality of early 30's, still got his health, richer than some small nations & a hot ex-cheerleader for a wife?????????????????????? :confused:


I don't see any attraction to retirement at all ;)

Northman
02-02-2009, 12:35 PM
No, my friend, Jake didn't quit the Broncos or the Bucs. He quit football. Were
he just pouting because he didn't get the job "handed" to him, he could have
been talked by somebody into coming back. Jake was through with football.
He chose to retire because his heart was not in it. That much is obvious.

Regarding what he said about Shanahan, I'm not taking a position either way,
whether or not it was appropriate. But he was asked, and he responded. I
guess I don't really judge him on that because that is kind of the way I do it,
too. I have been criticized for my sometimes deemed indiscreet candor. So
maybe that is why I have not reacted the same way toward some of either
Jake's or Jay's remarks. I might not always agree with them, but I do admire
their candor.

-----

I guess we will have to agree to disagree then. One of Jake's biggest gripes was about drafting Cutler after the 05' season. At the end of the season he was being asked to play a mentor role to help Jay early on and he didnt want to do it. When Denver told him they would trade him and that he was going to be sent to Tampa Gruden told Jake that he would have to compete for the starting job. So while your correct that his heart and desire wasnt there anymore a lot of that had to do with the fact that he wasnt going to be a starter. And since he was under contract he had no control of his destination. As for the comments, im all for someone speaking their mind if what they say is the truth. Jake has shown no appreciation for anything that Shanahan did for him and yes, that rubs me the wrong way. Shanahan expected more from him and Jake being Jake didnt want to do the extra things necessary to better himself as a player. But, you hear no mention of that from him, only piss poor excuses. Griese was trashed more than Jake was but whenever anyone asks about his time in Denver he is respectful about it. So while Jake was a better overall athlete and Qb than Brian his character is far worse. IMO

Northman
02-02-2009, 12:37 PM
Are you even serious? You think the Cards had more talent from 97-02?

Offensive Rushing rankings for the Cards:
'97 - 30th (out of 30)
'98 - 21st (out of 30)
'99 - 29th (out of 31)
'00 - 27th (out of 31)
'01 - 27th (out of 31)
'02 - 15th (out of 32)

Defensive ranking:
'97 - 27th
'98 - 21st
'99 - 22nd
'00 - 30th
'01 - 28th
'02 - 29th

Pro Bowlers:
'97 - Aeneas Williams & Rob Moore
'98 - None
'99 - None
'00 - None
'01 - David Boston
'02 - None

Think again. Plummer had nothing to work with in AZ. Not saying he would have been like Marino or something. Just saying he didn't have squat. No Champ or Marshall or Royal or a TE worth a damn. And his o-line was freakin garbage.


But some have said that surrounding talent doesnt matter. Its all Jake and in AZ he wasnt a winner. :coffee:

TXBRONC
02-02-2009, 12:48 PM
But some have said that surrounding talent doesnt matter. Its all Jake and in AZ he wasnt a winner. :coffee:

Hasn't Denver's defense been ranked at the bottom the last two years?

It's always interesting that Plummer gets pass on this by some zealots.

topscribe
02-02-2009, 12:49 PM
But some have said that surrounding talent doesnt matter. Its all Jake and in AZ he wasnt a winner. :coffee:

I believe you said that in sarcasm, and you are correct.

For instance, some consider Elway as the G.O.A.T., or at least one of them.
Yet he never had the best statistics, nor always the best W-L record. Why
then, was he considered such? Well, you had to see him on the field, and you
had to see the others on the field.

A QB has more influence than any other individual player on the results of a
game. However, he is still one player of 45 on a given day. A team wins a
game, and a team loses it.

I will never judge Jake for what he didn't accomplish with the tweetie birds,
and I will never judge Jay for what he hasn't accomplished the last three
years. Jay had a miserable defense, and Jake had a miserable team.

Put them in better circumstances, and what will they accomplish? Well, Jake
never had a losing season with the Broncos, and he QB'd the team to three
straight playoffs.

What about Jay? Well, picture him as a Steeler or in Kurt Warner's place this
year . . .

-----

Northman
02-02-2009, 12:58 PM
Hasn't Denver's defense been ranked at the bottom the last two years?

It's always interesting that Plummer gets pass on this by some zealots.


Well, the Jakettes are a interesting breed. Before we even got Cutler it was "man, our defense sucks!". Now, when our defense really sucks the arguement goes to "Well, Jay has more weapons on offense than Jake had!". Of course, nevermind the fact that Jay has virtually no running game to speak of. The defense is ten times worse than what Jake had to work with. Add in the player experience (veterans) that Jake had vs Jay and its like night and day. So when one of the Jakettes comes in and starts boasting Jake's winning record in Denver like he was the only one doing it makes me burst out in laughter. This is why i pointed out that if your going to make the claim that its all Jake than you better add in his time spent in AZ. At the end of the day if Jay ends his career with 69 wins and 67 losses with 161 TD's and 161 Int's than you can make the comparison. But until then, trying to make the arguement that Jay sucks after 2 and half seasons vs a Qb who was equally as bad after 10 is ridiculous.

In-com-plete
02-02-2009, 01:11 PM
You're such a joke. At least state REAL facts.

Jay has NEVER thrown more interceptions than touchdowns. Elway did it 2 out of his first three seasons as a starter.

Elway
1983 - 7 TDs / 14 INTs (10 games)
1984 - 18 TDs / 15 INTs
1985 - 22 TDs / 23 INTs

Cutler
2006 - 9 TDs / 5 INTs (5 games)
2007 - 20 TDs / 14 INTs
2008 - 25 TDs / 18 INTs

_____________________________________

But, let's look at the same number of games played. Jay has only started 37 games, so let's compare that to John's first 37....

Elway
1101 attempts / 45 TDs / 41 INTs
He threw one TD for every 24.47 attempts and one INT for every 26.85 attempts.

Cutler
1220 attempts / 54 TDs / 37 INTs
He threw one TD for every 22.59 attempts and one INT for every 32.97 attempts.

______________________________________

Completion percentage

Elway
1983 - 47.5
1984 - 56.3
1985 - 54.0

Cutler
2006 - 59.1
2007 - 63.6
2008 - 62.3

______________________________________

Conclusion?

Not only did John NOT find the open receiver as you claim, but he also found the three defenders more often than Cutler.

Thanks for playing.... :coffee:

Whoa whoa whoa!

You can't compare Cutler to Elway! You can't compare anyone to Elway! Atleast, that's the way it was 3 or 4 years ago.

Have the rules changed? Because, I think the rules have changed.

You know how many times you and other "anti's" have bashed me and every single Bronco fan who even compared Plummers stats to Elways?

In-com-plete
02-02-2009, 01:34 PM
we would if idiot supporters of his would quit bringing him up.

as far as I'm concerned, he's like Griese, and a little error inkmark in the History of Broncos...gone and definitely forgotten, with no desire to remember anything about that loser.

I can't wait till Kollette comes to her senses and leaves him...he'll probably blame the Broncos for that too. :rolleyes:

Well, I'm not an idiot supporter of his that brought him up.

Actually, if you'd just read the first 4 posts of this thread, you'd see who brought it up and whether it was a supporter or a hater of Plummer that started everything.

Were you calling someone an idiot? :lol:

Shazam!
02-02-2009, 01:46 PM
When Jake was here the team was much more balanced than it is now. The team comes and goes with Cutler. That never happened with Jake.

If McCoach works out, Cutler excels and the defense improved, THEN the Jay-haters will say 'Well, Jake didn't have this kind of team.'

As far as Jake's 'winning record,' QBs are not MLB pitchers. Jake still made rookie/inexperienced mistakes. Cutler is still inexperienced. Jay is going into his 3rd Season as the starter. He's a work in progress on a team with a pathetic defense.

You can't have it both ways.

I can't believe this argument still goes on.

Overtime
02-02-2009, 02:33 PM
Whoa whoa whoa!

You can't compare Cutler to Elway! You can't compare anyone to Elway! Atleast, that's the way it was 3 or 4 years ago.

Have the rules changed? Because, I think the rules have changed.

You know how many times you and other "anti's" have bashed me and every single Bronco fan who even compared Plummers stats to Elways?

I dunno man, Big Ben Roethlisberger is making himself a mighty good case to be compared with John Elway. they got the same build, only 2" and 26 pounds seperates them physically. they both make/made something out of absolutely nothing. they both are warriors, who do just about whatever it takes to win a football game. and they can move around the pocket and evade the sack pretty good.

and they've both won 2 Super Bowls.

LRtagger
02-02-2009, 02:41 PM
I dunno man, Big Ben Roethlisberger is making himself a mighty good case to be compared with John Elway. they got the same build, only 2" and 26 pounds seperates them physically. they both make/made something out of absolutely nothing. they both are warriors, who do just about whatever it takes to win a football game. and they can move around the pocket and evade the sack pretty good.

and they've both won 2 Super Bowls.

Ben could NEVER carry a team on his shoulders the way John did for so many years. The Broncos made 3 SBs on John's back. Ben has a top 5 defense year in and year out. With an average defense the Steelers are an average team. Ben is not the kind of player that can make up for a bad defense the way John could.

Lonestar
02-02-2009, 02:43 PM
Actually, there was....

The Real Reason Plummer was Replaced (http://broncotalk.net/2008/09/the-real-reason-plummer-was-replaced/)

Stefan Fatsis’s book “A Few Seconds of Panic” has revealed several interesting insights into the Broncos organization as they prepared and played in the 2006 season. The Denver Post has been promoting the book by printing sections of it in the paper. The current installment centers on Jake Plummer and his eventual benching.

The most significant issue that surfaces in the text is Mike Shanahan’s number one pet peeve - missing off-season workouts. Jake Plummer only made 85% of his off-season workouts that year (the lowest on the team). For a team captain and leader of the offense to miss ANY of the workouts in Denver is nearly as bad for your career as lying to Coach Shanahan’s face. 85% is practically a slap in the face to the team and great players like Rod Smith.

In Plummer’s case, he not only gave up $200k in workout bonuses, he JUST didn’t seem to understand why this was important to Shanahan and the team. In Fatsis’s account of his post-benching conversation with Plummer, Jake says this:

“Yeah, I missed some workouts. And you know what?” Jake lowers his head to the table and talks directly into my tape recorder. “Mike Shanahan, you can kiss my [ass] for being pissed at that. You can quote that. I made 85% of my workouts and he’s still mad about it. He still brought that up. Give me a break. That’s the dumbest [damn] thing on earth…. Well, if that’s the reason (I was benched), then I’m glad I didn’t make those. Because I don’t want to be here every day in the off-season.”

Well, there you go folks…

I loved watching Plummer play. I liked his fit in Denver’s system, but blowing off the off-season workouts and posting the lowest participation on the team is completely unacceptable from your QB. The great players at that position are the first ones to arrive and the last ones to leave. And the fact that Plummer couldn’t understand that (and was even pissed about it) makes me now understand the cold shoulder Shanahan showed him during that season - specifically related to the not telling Plummer of his benching personally.

I’m sure letplummerplay.com will have a different spin on this issue, but I think this puts to rest the real reasons behind Plummer’s benching. I can see now that Shanahan could not allow another off-season of partial participation from his starting QB. From Plummer’s own statements, he simply didn’t want to be there every day, and that attitude can have a devastating effect on the morale of the young team Shanahan was building.

Was this interview done before or after Jakes departure? Because frankly I can't ever remember seeing it before, must have been a local DP article..

Just so I'm clear off season workouts. As I understand them are going in that pumping iron and staying in shape at Dove valley.. Something that could be done at a gym or racket ball court at home or down the street..

Now if that is true and the guy wants to give up 200K to do it in AZ or where ever he is than it seems like that is a control issues and just another reason for mickey being gone..

Afterall I think they were optional and he was being paid EXTRA for them..

If they were really mandatory or he came in the camp out of shape like fatso did this past year then I could see a REAL reason other than it displeases mikey the mastermind control freak..

Did he miss any real practices or come to camps out of shape or overweight?

Always thought these guys were professional, adults but hey maybe I'm wrong thinking that..

I guess what motivated some did not motivate Jake as we all saw about giving back lots of money so he could retire.. frankly I wished I could have done that years ago.. and I'll beat 98% of our members would also..

Overtime
02-02-2009, 02:44 PM
Ben could NEVER carry a team on his shoulders the way John did for so many years. The Broncos made 3 SBs on John's back. Ben has a top 5 defense year in and year out. With an average defense the Steelers are an average team. Ben is not the kind of player that can make up for a bad defense the way John could.

...did you not watch the game last night? have you watched any of the games he plays in???

and you have nothing to backup your last sentence because we haven't seen Ben play with a bad defense.

Ben finds ways to win games, and there've been plenty of games his defense hasn't always been as sharp as they usually are.

topscribe
02-02-2009, 02:47 PM
personal attack deleted, did you not watch the game last night? have you watched any of the games he plays in???

and you have nothing to backup your last sentence because we haven't seen Ben play with a bad defense.

Ben finds ways to win games, and there've been plenty of games his defense hasn't always been as sharp as they usually are.

I see you're new. As so, you are still learning the etiquette of this specific board.
While I am no longer a mod and cannot enforce anything, I can point out a rule
in this board's Rules and Guidelines:


5. No threats, name calling, ethnic or racist remarks, gender harassment or other type of posts that attack someone.

-----

Overtime
02-02-2009, 02:48 PM
Was this interview done before or after Jakes departure? Because frankly I can't ever remember seeing it before, must have been a local DP article..

Just so I'm clear off season workouts. As I understand them are going in that pumping iron and staying in shape at Dove valley.. Something that could be done at a gym or racket ball court at home or down the street..

Now if that is true and the guy wants to give up 200K to do it in AZ or where ever he is than it seems like that is a control issues and just another reason for mickey being gone..

Afterall I think they were optional and he was being paid EXTRA for them..

If they were really mandatory or he came in the camp out of shape like fatso did this past year then I could see a REAL reason other than it displeases mikey the mastermind control freak..

Did he miss any real practices or come to camps out of shape or overweight?

Always thought these guys were professional, adults but hey maybe I'm wrong thinking that..

I guess what motivated some did not motivate Jake as we all saw about giving back lots of money so he could retire.. frankly I wished I could have done that years ago.. and I'll beat 98% of our members would also..

i think the thing with the OTA's and showing up for them is the accountability factor. you can tell the coach you did all that stuff at the gym or whatever back home, but it's just your word, and you have nothing or no one to corroborate that claim, and that's why Shanahan was pissed, because he didn't know if Jake was doing that stuff or not.

But really if Jake was so interested in "escaping" and doing his own thing, then he should have probably never signed with the Broncos. He shoulda gone on to Oakland where they encourage out of shape athletes to eat junk food, and show up for camp 20# overweight and not in football shape.

Overtime
02-02-2009, 02:49 PM
I see you're new, as so you are still learning the etiquette of this specific board.
While I am no longer a mod and cannot enforce anything, I can point out a rule
in this board's Rules and Guidelines:



-----

thing you'll learn about me is that I'll call it like I see it. When people make stupid comments such as the one I retorted to, I'll call it, I don't care if there's a stupid rule or not that says I shouldn't do it.

shank
02-02-2009, 02:51 PM
(personal attack deleted), did you not watch the game last night? have you watched any of the games he plays in???

and you have nothing to backup your last sentence because we haven't seen Ben play with a bad defense.

Ben finds ways to win games, and there've been plenty of games his defense hasn't always been as sharp as they usually are.

:blah::throwrock:

Northman
02-02-2009, 02:51 PM
I think i hear the axe falling..... lol

topscribe
02-02-2009, 02:51 PM
thing you'll learn about me is that I'll call it like I see it. When people make stupid comments such as the one I retorted to, I'll call it, I don't care if there's a stupid rule or not that says I shouldn't do it.

That's fine. I was only trying to do you a favor because what they usually do
to those who don't care about the rules is to ban them. It won't be me doing it.

So I won't say anything more. Good luck. :coffee:

-----

LRtagger
02-02-2009, 02:54 PM
(personal attack deleted), did you not watch the game last night? have you watched any of the games he plays in???

and you have nothing to backup your last sentence because we haven't seen Ben play with a bad defense.

Ben finds ways to win games, and there've been plenty of games his defense hasn't always been as sharp as they usually are.

Yea, I watched the ONE game last night and I also watched the entire season.

59% completion percentage. 17 tds, 15 ints, 80 QB rating, 7 lost fumbles on a team that went 12-4. Yea, that was all Ben.

How many Super Bowls do you think Ben would have been to if he played on the Broncos team in the 80s? How many SBs do you think John would have won if he played on the Steelers team from 00-09?

Did you watch the first super bowl that Ben played in? And his 20 something QB rating. :rolleyes:

Ben is not anywhere close to being on John's level. And he never will be.

Overtime
02-02-2009, 02:56 PM
That's fine. I was only trying to do you a favor because what they usually do
to those who don't care about the rules is to ban them. It won't be me doing it.

So I won't say anything more. Good luck. :coffee:

-----

well it won't be the first time, won't be the last. and if they do, I'll just walk downstairs to the modem and the router, reset it, get me a new ip and I'll have me a new account within 5 minutes. so really what will that accomplish to ban me? it's not like i swore at him, or threatened him. i said he must be a stupid person. wow, big crime there.

topscribe
02-02-2009, 02:58 PM
well it won't be the first time, won't be the last. and if they do, I'll just walk downstairs to the modem and the router, reset it, get me a new ip and I'll have me a new account within 5 minutes. so really what will that accomplish to ban me? it's not like i swore at him, or threatened him. i said he must be a stupid person. wow, big crime there.

Are you JWalk?

-----

shank
02-02-2009, 02:58 PM
:popcorn:

LRtagger
02-02-2009, 02:58 PM
Yea Im a stupid person for thinking Ben Roethlisberger is not as good a QB as John Elway ROFL

LRtagger
02-02-2009, 02:59 PM
Are you JWalk?

-----

or NB

Overtime
02-02-2009, 02:59 PM
Yea, I watched the ONE game last night and I also watched the entire season.

59% completion percentage. 17 tds, 15 ints, 80 QB rating, 7 lost fumbles on a team that went 12-4. Yea, that was all Ben.

How many Super Bowls do you think Ben would have been to if he played on the Broncos team in the 80s? How many SBs do you think John would have won if he played on the Steelers team from 00-09?

Did you watch the first super bowl that Ben played in? And his 20 something QB rating. :rolleyes:

Ben is not anywhere close to being on John's level. And he never will be.

i think you'd better go back and look at some Elway's stats there bud. very very similar numbers.

http://www.nfl.com/players/johnelway/profile?id=ELW276861

yep I watched the first Super Bowl, and he was terrible in that game, but he still led them to victory with a few key plays.

Overtime
02-02-2009, 03:00 PM
Are you JWalk?

-----

what?

topscribe
02-02-2009, 03:04 PM
i think you'd better go back and look at some Elway's stats there bud. very very similar numbers.

http://www.nfl.com/players/johnelway/profile?id=ELW276861

yep I watched the first Super Bowl, and he was terrible in that game, but he still led them to victory with a few key plays.

Personally, I'm not a stats guy. I'm a how-they-perform-on-the-field guy.
That's why I entered this post (http://broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=542319&postcount=177) regarding Elway.

-----

Lonestar
02-02-2009, 03:08 PM
Are you even serious? You think the Cards had more talent from 97-02?

Offensive Rushing rankings for the Cards:
'97 - 30th (out of 30)
'98 - 21st (out of 30)
'99 - 29th (out of 31)
'00 - 27th (out of 31)
'01 - 27th (out of 31)
'02 - 15th (out of 32)

Defensive ranking:
'97 - 27th
'98 - 21st
'99 - 22nd
'00 - 30th
'01 - 28th
'02 - 29th

Pro Bowlers:
'97 - Aeneas Williams & Rob Moore
'98 - None
'99 - None
'00 - None
'01 - David Boston
'02 - None

Think again. Plummer had nothing to work with in AZ. Not saying he would have been like Marino or something. Just saying he didn't have squat. No Champ or Marshall or Royal or a TE worth a damn. And his o-line was freakin garbage.



Wonder how much of those rushing yards were Jakes.. 283 46 attp and 6.2 average out of 1823 total 414 attempts and 4.4 average.. BTW Jake was number two in rushing TD's with 2 pretty sad only two folks with more rushing yards shipp 834 and Jones 511.

Hmmmmm One has to only wonder why he leaped to come to DEN.

http://www.nfl.com/teams/arizonacardinals/statistics?season=2002&team=ARI&seasonType=

Northman
02-02-2009, 03:09 PM
Wonder how much of those rushing yards were Jakes.. 283 46 attp and 6.2 average out of 1823 total 414 attempts and 4.4 average.. BTW Jake was number two in rushing TD's with 2 pretty sad only two folks with more rushing yards shipp 834 and Jones 511.

Hmmmmm One has to only wonder why he leaped to come to DEN.

http://www.nfl.com/teams/arizonacardinals/statistics?season=2002&team=ARI&seasonType=

But surrounding talent means nothing. At least so im told on here.

LRtagger
02-02-2009, 03:14 PM
i think you'd better go back and look at some Elway's stats there bud. very very similar numbers.

http://www.nfl.com/players/johnelway/profile?id=ELW276861

yep I watched the first Super Bowl, and he was terrible in that game, but he still led them to victory with a few key plays.

Let me spell it out for you...AGAIN.

John did not have a good or great team early in his career. He was forced to make plays with his feet and arm and probably made a lot of throws he shouldnt have.

Ben opened his career on a great team. He wasnt asked to scramble or throw the ball a lot. He for the most part handed the ball off and let the defense do their thing. They went 15-1 his rookie year....yet his numbers were still AVERAGE.

Ben is average, yet because he is on a team that can make up for him being average, he is looked at as some sort of great QB. Sure Ben makes some clutch plays, but you are trying to compare him to one of the best of all time. When Ben's career is done he will not even be mentioned in the top 10 of all time.

John carried his team while the Steelers defense carries Ben.

Lonestar
02-02-2009, 03:36 PM
But surrounding talent means nothing. At least so im told on here.



Surrounding talent is ever thing for the QB.. No WR, TE, RB and the QB has to do it all..

This past year DEN Had 1862 rushing yards not the normal for DEN..


I think everyone has to agree that the QB can't do it all while they get the glory of the wins they also get blamed for the loses..

fact of life..

Jake had a better defense for most of his career here FACT
Jake had a decent OLINE that was designed for ZBS not drop back..
Jake had decent receivers.
Jake was not run of the mill eager rookie trying to please the coaching staff..
Jake was an experienced veteran QB that mikey though he could convert into his style of QB..
Jake was not money obsessed.
Jake was a great leader on the field.
Jake lead a pretty simple lifestyle.. pretty basic kind of guy, cheap car, and t-shirts
Jake made the comment many times I heard that he was amazed he was a QB in the NFL never dreamed he would be and to do it for as long as he did was even more amazing..
Jake did not live up to mikeys expectations..
Jake took the demotion well did not pout or throw temper tantrums and helped Jay while on the sideline..
Jake choose to retire to a simpler life and has to my knowledge kept his mouth shut until this article and perhaps the other one.... In the "first one" unless I missed something he did not rip mikey. In this later one it seemed that he told what he perceived as the truth and from what I have suspected, why Pat fired the guy..


Jay was drafted to be the wunderkinder..
Jay has a brilliant future ahead of him.
Jay so far has not been a great leader for what I have seen. While on the field he is fiery while on the sideline a lot like greasy was, keeps his own console..

I am happy about Jake retiring (wish I could ) and Jays performance..

If he can grow with his next QB coach and HC great if not he is still pretty damned good.. Not a Payton Manning or Tom Brady but good enough to be a game manager with a strong arm.. Put that together with a stronger running game and a great Defense and we have a trip or two to the supper bowl ahead..


NOW can't we all get along and realize the mikey is gone, Jake is gone and that MC Kid HC and MC Kid QB are here and the future..

bcbronc
02-02-2009, 03:44 PM
Jay >>>>> Jake hands down

I know I'm not the sharpest font on the teleprompter, but what the hell does Jay have to do with Jake's comments? Jake said Shanny had got stale and the move was a good thing. the response:

Jay'Z more better than Jake cuz Plumber made middle finger and hert my feelings.

the correct response would be either "I agree with Jake, 14 years was long enough" or "I disagree with Jake, Shanny had finished putting together his offense and only needed another year or two."

Cutler being better than Jake (or not) is irrelevant to whether replacing Shanny was the right move (or not). Same with Elway vs Big Ben. Brady is better than both anyway.




Hasn't Denver's defense been ranked at the bottom the last two years?

It's always interesting that Plummer gets pass on this by some zealots.

it sounds like you are agreeing with Plummer, but then you complain he gets a pass? no sense makey. isn't the rank of Denver's defense (and I mean that as in reak, or stench) at the feet of Shanny? wouldn't the fact our defense went from absolutely terrible to disgustingly embarrasing seem to support what Plummer said? but but but Cutler's the bestest qb ever to not play in a playoff game or have a winning record so everything the Bearded Wonder says is wrong!!

get over it folks. Cutler is not competing with Plummer. who's better, now and in the future, means absolutely nothing. Fact is, Plummer was right: it was time for a change in Dove Valley. if you disagree with that, great. But don't bring up Cutler's arm strength as your argument.

Overtime
02-02-2009, 03:52 PM
Surrounding talent is ever thing for the QB.. No WR, TE, RB and the QB has to do it all..

This past year DEN Had 1862 rushing yards not the normal for DEN..


I think everyone has to agree that the QB can't do it all while they get the glory of the wins they also get blamed for the loses..

fact of life..

Jake had a better defense for most of his career here FACT
True

Jake had a decent OLINE that was designed for ZBS not drop back..
Jake had decent receivers.
Jake was not run of the mill eager rookie trying to please the coaching staff..
Jake was an experienced veteran QB that mikey though he could convert into his style of QB..
Jake was not money obsessed.True

Jake was a great leader on the field.FALSE! He was terrible leader on and off the field.


Jake lead a pretty simple lifestyle.. pretty basic kind of guy, cheap car, and t-shirts
Jake made the comment many times I heard that he was amazed he was a QB in the NFL never dreamed he would be and to do it for as long as he did was even more amazing..
Jake did not live up to mikeys expectations..True


Jake took the demotion well did not pout or throw temper tantrums and helped Jay while on the sideline..FALSE FALSE FALSE FALSE!! read the following article please. He pouted, he threw a fit, he bitched, he moaned, and he threw the whole team under the bus, and then HE QUIT!


http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_10440842

Jake has no regrets about coming to Denver, despite the criticism he has faced about his playing style, his statistics and, now, his "failure" to win the big game — the 2005 AFC Championship Game against Pittsburgh. "It was a good decision. A big-time place to come," he says. "And they were hungry. I brought in an attitude that was not like the one they had here."
But after completing their best season since John Elway, and Jake's best season as a pro, the Broncos scaled the draft ladder to pick a quarterback. Jake was in his unwinterized, 2,000-square-foot cabin in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, unreachable. "I'm sure they knew not to try to call me, because I would have said, 'Do whatever the hell you want to do,' " he says.



Still, it bugged him, the way the business of football naturally bugs players, no matter how much money they've made or how successful they've been. Jake understood that teams do as they please, and that winning teams like the Broncos don't often get to select high in the draft. But Jake had the franchise "a game from the bowl," and believed he could take the final step.


"And then all of a sudden they draft him, when I think we could have drafted other positions to make us better. But they drafted him. When you do that, bam, the whole world changed here. I tried not to change though, because that would show my weakness. Is it a slap in my face? Was it? Ahhh, maybe a little bit. But if that's a move they felt they had to do, then they've got to do it."


Jake never asked Jake choose to retire to a simpler life and has to my knowledge kept his mouth shut until this article and perhaps the other one.... In the "first one" unless I missed something he did not rip mikey. In this later one it seemed that he told what he perceived as the truth and from what I have suspected, why Pat fired the guy..



for an explanation and never got one. I, however, did ask general manager Ted Sundquist and head coach Mike Shanahan why they drafted Cutler, knowing how it would play in town. They cited two main reasons: finding a replacement for Jake, whose mobility and durability would decline, and finding themselves in the position to obtain an elite quarterback who could play until 2020. Sundquist's rationale was the latter. Shanahan's was the former.

Jake had spent much of the off-season in Idaho, away from Denver and the "voluntary" workouts that teams nonetheless monitor obsessively and reward monetarily. Jake's 85 percent attendance mark was the lowest on the team. Shanahan interpreted that as a loss of interest, and wanted someone waiting in the wings.


"Jake is a guy that I could tell going into this year was not as enthused

about the off-season program, working out, wanting to be away. He gave up 200 grand because he didn't hit his percentage. Well, when my quarterback is missing..." Shanahan pauses. "John Elway, he's in here 16 years, he's making those guys work because he wants one thing, and that's to win the Super Bowl."



Jake admits that he thinks more now about life after football. It's only natural. "When you get into your 10th year, some guys realize, 'Oh, god, I'm going to have to give this up soon,' and they can't live without it and they start going harder and harder. I love football. I love playing it. It's fun. Take it away, I've got a lot on my plate that

(http://www.denverpost.com/portlet/article/html/imageDisplay.jsp?contentItemRelationshipId=2098493 )

I can go do and want to go do and have been waiting to go do but can't because of the time commitment." Jake has two brothers with two kids each, a mother he talks to every day, a father in treatment for alcoholism. There are other sports and activities: handball, skiing, backpacking, mountain biking. He wants to raise a family.

For now, though, in camp, Jake is playing well. And Shanahan seems pleased. While Shanahan has praised Cutler, and promoted him to No. 2, publicly the coach has knocked down talk of a quick ascension to the starter's job. That hasn't stopped the speculation: Would the overthrow take place sometime this season? Next year? The year after?


Jake says he's not worried. Whether fans like it or not, whether his
accomplishments are ever enough for the city of Denver, he's the quarterback until further notice. "They have to put up with crusty-(expletive) old me for however long I can take it," he says. "Which means they have to put up with 13-win seasons. I think they can put up with it."

The 2006 season, however, doesn't go well. The Broncos start 7-2, but the offense struggles and, after consecutive losses, Shanahan benches Plummer for Cutler. After the Broncos lose the rookie's debut against Seattle, Plummer talks to the author.



At 8 a.m. three days after the game, I meet Jake in the Broncos' lunchroom. "Bad enough I got benched," he cracks. "Now I got this (expletive) guy wanting to interview me."



Since he was replaced, Jake has politely refused to speak to the media. He tells me he doesn't want to stir controversy or draw attention from Cutler, and also that he needs to remain cool in case Cutler fails or is hurt. But he is furious.



Jake acknowledges that, yes, he threw some interceptions early in the season and, yes, the offense hadn't performed especially well. But it wasn't exclusively his fault, he says. Key passing targets from last year were gone. There were the injuries. And the play-calling was tentative, especially when the Broncos had a lead. Yet the team still was in position to achieve the initial goal of every NFL franchise: to make the playoffs. "We're 7-4 and on the peak of a wild card and they made a move that" — Jake pauses — "was the wrong move to make."



Jake believes the coaches scapegoated him for the team's broader problems, and then fed or at least failed to head off rumors that his job was on the line. "That's not a way to live, that's not a way to play," he says. "But they created that." Jake tells me he learned from the media that he wouldn't start against Seattle.



I ask whether he'll play next season. He says he isn't sure, but he talks about his career mostly in the past tense. He talks about his time in Denver entirely in the past tense. Jake thinks that people-inside and outside the organization-will appreciate that he won a lot of games and helped restore the franchise's pride and winning tradition. But he is bitter about how he was treated this season by fans, the media and Shanahan, who told him again that missing off-season workouts indicated to him that Jake didn't care.


"Yeah, I missed some workouts. And you know what?" Jake lowers his head to the table and talks directly into my tape recorder. "Mike Shanahan, you can kiss my (expletive) for being pissed at that. You can quote that. I made 85 percent of my workouts and he's still mad about it. He still brought that up. Give me a break. That's the dumbest (expletive) thing on earth.



"He's got to have me to be his leader," Jake says sarcastically. "Well, listen. When I'm out there on a Thursday, when everyone's half-assing it and just going through the motions, I'm the one that was calling (expletive) out saying, 'Let's go.' No one else. Eighty-five percent workouts? Mad about that? And he's still mad about it? Well, if that's the reason (I was benched), then I'm glad I didn't make those. Because I don't want to be here every day in the off-season. You don't get any escape.
"But, hey, he felt like I crossed him in some way. Once you do that, he'll never let those things go. If you cross him in some way, he'll hold on to that more than the times you've done good by him."yeah that's really classy Jake.




Jay was drafted to be the wunderkinder..
Jay has a brilliant future ahead of him.True


Jay so far has not been a great leader for what I have seen. While on the field he is fiery while on the sideline a lot like greasy was, keeps his own console..

I beg to disagree. he's a good leader, but he just needs to reword how he says things.


I am happy about Jake retiring (wish I could ) and Jays performance..

If he can grow with his next QB coach and HC great if not he is still pretty damned good.. Not a Payton Manning or Tom Brady but good enough to be a game manager with a strong arm.. Put that together with a stronger running game and a great Defense and we have a trip or two to the supper bowl ahead..


NOW can't we all get along and realize the mikey is gone, Jake is gone and that MC Kid HC and MC Kid QB are here and the future..word.

topscribe
02-02-2009, 03:54 PM
I know I'm not the sharpest font on the teleprompter, but what the hell does Jay have to do with Jake's comments? Jake said Shanny had got stale and the move was a good thing. the response:

Jay'Z more better than Jake cuz Plumber made middle finger and hert my feelings.

the correct response would be either "I agree with Jake, 14 years was long enough" or "I disagree with Jake, Shanny had finished putting together his offense and only needed another year or two."

Cutler being better than Jake (or not) is irrelevant to whether replacing Shanny was the right move (or not). Same with Elway vs Big Ben. Brady is better than both anyway.




it sounds like you are agreeing with Plummer, but then you complain he gets a pass? no sense makey. isn't the rank of Denver's defense (and I mean that as in reak, or stench) at the feet of Shanny? wouldn't the fact our defense went from absolutely terrible to disgustingly embarrasing seem to support what Plummer said? but but but Cutler's the bestest qb ever to not play in a playoff game or have a winning record so everything the Bearded Wonder says is wrong!!

get over it folks. Cutler is not competing with Plummer. who's better, now and in the future, means absolutely nothing. Fact is, Plummer was right: it was time for a change in Dove Valley. if you disagree with that, great. But don't bring up Cutler's arm strength as your argument.

I was ready to give you a Hi-5 AND an MHS until you made the comment about Brady. :tsk:

-----

In-com-plete
02-02-2009, 03:57 PM
I dunno man, Big Ben Roethlisberger is making himself a mighty good case to be compared with John Elway. they got the same build, only 2" and 26 pounds seperates them physically. they both make/made something out of absolutely nothing. they both are warriors, who do just about whatever it takes to win a football game. and they can move around the pocket and evade the sack pretty good.

and they've both won 2 Super Bowls.

I was refering to the bashing I and every other Bronco fan got back in '04-'06 when we'd compare Plummers stats in his first 8 or 9 seasons to Elways stats in his first 8 or 9 seasons.

That was a time when most that roam here roamed "Broncomania".
That was a time when the anti-Plummers would blast you for even mentioning Elway and Plummer in the same sentence.
That was a time when it was Plummer's fault we lost because he threw a pick or didn't convert a 3rd down.
That was a time when Plummers playoff record was his only stat.

Opposite of what's going on now.

Now, Broncomania sucks.
Now, Cutler is the next John Elway.
Now, when we lose it's all on the defense.
Now, we don't make the playoffs.

Lonestar
02-02-2009, 04:09 PM
True
True
FALSE! He was terrible leader on and off the field.

True

FALSE FALSE FALSE FALSE!! read the following article please. He pouted, he threw a fit, he bitched, he moaned, and he threw the whole team under the bus, and then HE QUIT!

yeah that's really classy Jake.



True



I beg to disagree. he's a good leader, but he just needs to reword how he says things.

word.


Maybe I missed something but this was published in 2008 and after the 2007 season..

Every thing I read about Jake during that 2006 season was positive and supportive of Jay..

Maybe you have something to disprove that?

The only negatives I heard about Jake were in the last week or so of the season and directly afterwords and it was not derogatory towards the team, Jay or mikey just about his thinking about retirement..

Since I do not live in DEN and do not see the local TV shows nor read the local press I miss alot and maybe there was indeed something I missed..


BTW I have never heard anything about Jake being a bad leader, But maybe the team votes their captains in based on bad leadership..:laugh::laugh:

Overtime
02-02-2009, 04:10 PM
I was refering to the bashing I and every other Bronco fan got back in '04-'06 when we'd compare Plummers stats in his first 8 or 9 seasons to Elways stats in his first 8 or 9 seasons.

That was a time when most that roam here roamed "Broncomania".
That was a time when the anti-Plummers would blast you for even mentioning Elway and Plummer in the same sentence.
That was a time when it was Plummer's fault we lost because he threw a pick or didn't convert a 3rd down.
That was a time when Plummers playoff record was his only stat.

Opposite of what's going on now.

Now, Broncomania sucks.
Now, Cutler is the next John Elway.
Now, when we lose it's all on the defense.
Now, we don't make the playoffs.

well to be fair, John Elway set a standard for a QB's level of play in Denver, and unless the fans have the next Elway under center, they're never gonna be happy and the comparisons will continue as long as people who saw him play are still alive to talk about it.

Lonestar
02-02-2009, 04:12 PM
well to be fair, John Elway set a standard for a QB's level of play in Denver, and unless the fans have the next Elway under center, they're never gonna be happy and the comparisons will continue as long as people who saw him play are still alive to talk about it.


this was something most of us would agree on..

Overtime
02-02-2009, 04:13 PM
Maybe I missed something but this was published in 2008 and after the 2007 season..

Every thing I read about Jake during that 2006 season was positive and f supportive of Jay..

Maybe you have something to disprove that?

The only negatives I heard about Jake were in the last week or so of the season and directly afterwords and it was not derogatory towards the team, Jay or mikey just about his thinking about retirement..

Since I do not live in DEN and do not see the local TV shows nor read teh local press I miss alot and maybe there was indeed something I missed..


BTW I have never heard anything about Jake being a bad leader, But maybe the team votes their captains in based on bad leadership..:laugh::laugh:

um well those interviews took place in 2006 while that was all going on, as the writer was Steven Fatsis a reporter who got to tryout as a kicker for the Broncos. just because it wasn't published until 2008, doesn't mean Jake was all happy hunky doory, and took it well. That story was all conducted in 2006, the released in the book in 2008.

GEM
02-02-2009, 04:25 PM
thing you'll learn about me is that I'll call it like I see it. When people make stupid comments such as the one I retorted to, I'll call it, I don't care if there's a stupid rule or not that says I shouldn't do it.

Thing that you'll learn about this board is that if you can't respect the rules of the board that were set up by the owner of the board, you won't find your experience here very enjoyable.

Lonestar
02-02-2009, 04:25 PM
um well those interviews took place in 2006 while that was all going on, as the writer was Steven Fatsis a reporter who got to tryout as a kicker for the Broncos. just because it wasn't published until 2008, doesn't mean Jake was all happy hunky doory, and took it well. That story was all conducted in 2006, the released in the book in 2008.


It still does not mean that Jake was disruptive with the team.. NOTHING has been proven other wise at this point..


Since it was published in 2008 I suspect that other than those folks interviewed and the author were told what others had to say.. Therefore NO issues till it was published and therefore no grounds for disgruntlement among the players or coaching staff..


Was the author really Mountain man?

weazel
02-02-2009, 05:10 PM
Jay or Jake arguments are ridiculous. Who cares? Jake is gone and Jay is here.

Lets just hope Jay has more luck reducing picks than Jake did, because if were being honest, both of them gave up the ball far too often.

Broncos Mtnman
02-02-2009, 05:50 PM
Whoa whoa whoa!

You can't compare Cutler to Elway! You can't compare anyone to Elway! Atleast, that's the way it was 3 or 4 years ago.

Have the rules changed? Because, I think the rules have changed.

You know how many times you and other "anti's" have bashed me and every single Bronco fan who even compared Plummers stats to Elways?

I didn't make the comparison. WTM did and I PROVED that he was full of it.

Thanks for playing..... :coffee:

jrelway
02-02-2009, 05:50 PM
why people are still having the jake talks just baffles me. i liked him here cause he played hard for us. once he left, i could care less what he did with his life. he doesnt care about the broncos guys.

omac
02-02-2009, 06:54 PM
I'm a Cutler fan now. I think he is special. But he's had so much more to work with on the offensive side of the ball.

Back in '06 it wasn't a coincidence Scheffler and Marshall "emerged" as Cutler took over. They were either hurt or Shanahan just held them back until he gave up on the season and pulled Plummer.

And no, it's not a coincidence Cutler had more TDs and less Ints in '06. Considering the pass defenses he faced. He faced the 13th (SD), 16th (Sea), 26th (49ers), 29th (Cards), and the worst (Bengals) pass defenses.

Plus, like I said, Marshall and Scheffler finally saw the field.

The only coincidence I see, is that Darrell Jackson, who's only season with less than 46 catches for 500 yards and 3 TDs (other than '05 when he played in only 6 games) came this year. Why would a WR who had almost 500 catches for almost 7000 yards and 50 TD have such a down year this year?

Could it be because we were freakin loaded at WR this year?

We are loaded at WR this year, and we have a great OL. :cheers:

I'm glad you're a fan of Cutler. Really, Jay is, and Jake was, really good for their teams. It's unfortunate that a lot of us have to try to bring one of them down in discussions in order to elevate the other, when there's really no need for that. I guess it's just a normal, defensive reaction. :beer:

Again, Jake was good, but I just don't like how he's disrespecting his old coach. Hopefully, he can balance it out in future interviews and say something positive about how Shanahan's helped him become a better QB.

omac
02-02-2009, 07:20 PM
Ben could NEVER carry a team on his shoulders the way John did for so many years. The Broncos made 3 SBs on John's back. Ben has a top 5 defense year in and year out. With an average defense the Steelers are an average team. Ben is not the kind of player that can make up for a bad defense the way John could.

I don't know if Ben could never carry a team on his shoulders; under Tomlin, he's really grown as a quarterback, and he makes key big plays at big moments. But you are definitely spot on; the Steelers defense will help any QBs win-loss record. When their defense wasn't great because of some injuries, we beat them, and that was when Bates was our DC.

Watchthemiddle
02-02-2009, 08:56 PM
A lot of you want to say its the defense's fault....

Well, did they make Jay throw into double coverage?

NOPE

thanks for playing

17-20 as a starter

next

:coffee:

broncobryce
02-02-2009, 09:03 PM
Who's playing?

rcsodak
02-02-2009, 09:41 PM
You're such a joke. At least state REAL facts.

Jay has NEVER thrown more interceptions than touchdowns. Elway did it 2 out of his first three seasons as a starter.

Elway
1983 - 7 TDs / 14 INTs (10 games)
1984 - 18 TDs / 15 INTs
1985 - 22 TDs / 23 INTs

Cutler
2006 - 9 TDs / 5 INTs (5 games)
2007 - 20 TDs / 14 INTs
2008 - 25 TDs / 18 INTs

_____________________________________

But, let's look at the same number of games played. Jay has only started 37 games, so let's compare that to John's first 37....

Elway
1101 attempts / 45 TDs / 41 INTs
He threw one TD for every 24.47 attempts and one INT for every 26.85 attempts.

Cutler
1220 attempts / 54 TDs / 37 INTs
He threw one TD for every 22.59 attempts and one INT for every 32.97 attempts.

______________________________________

Completion percentage

Elway
1983 - 47.5
1984 - 56.3
1985 - 54.0

Cutler
2006 - 59.1
2007 - 63.6
2008 - 62.3

______________________________________

Conclusion?

Not only did John NOT find the open receiver as you claim, but he also found the three defenders more often than Cutler.

Thanks for playing.... :coffee:

Oh for craps sake, mtn......apples and oranges!

Do you honestly believe today's game is the same as it was back when Elway was a 1-3yr player? Good grief!

Maybe you should throw tarkenton/bradshaw into the mix. Hell, why not go back to the leatherhead days! :rolleyes:

Cutler would have washed out back in elway's early goings. He's not a mentally strong person, imo.

And elway would be flourishing in cutlers early goings. With the weapons that are at hand? Holy crap! :lol:

Cutler is no elway.

Requiem / The Dagda
02-02-2009, 09:43 PM
Jay Cutler is Jay Cutler. Yep, we know that. Thanks for pointing it out.

Shazam!
02-02-2009, 09:54 PM
Plummer-
Att-1596
Comp-944
Yds-11,631
TD-78
INT- 47
Fumbles/Lost- 21/11
Highest Comp.%- 62
AVG Comp.%- 59%

Cutler-

Att-1220
Comp-762
Yds-9,024
TD-57
INT-37
Fumbles/Lost-24/8
Highest Comp.%-63%
AVG Comp.%- 62.5%

Plummer started an entire season of more games, was a veteran of 10 years, had a much more balanced team and didn't have the 'benefit' of the worst defense in the League when he was on the sidelines for two seasons.

Has it been mentioned Jay is going into his 3rd full Season as a starting QB?

Thanks for playing. :coffee:

Lonestar
02-02-2009, 09:55 PM
We are loaded at WR this year, and we have a great OL. :cheers:

I'm glad you're a fan of Cutler. Really, Jay is, and Jake was, really good for their teams. It's unfortunate that a lot of us have to try to bring one of them down in discussions in order to elevate the other, when there's really no need for that. I guess it's just a normal, defensive reaction. :beer:

Again, Jake was good, but I just don't like how he's disrespecting his old coach. Hopefully, he can balance it out in future interviews and say something positive about how Shanahan's helped him become a better QB.

I guess we will never know for sure he did not say just that in the interview but then that would not sell papers would it..

Maybe he does not feel that way perhaps he thought Gary did that..

Perhaps he also thought that wearing two hats mikey in an almost impossible position handing money and contracts with one hand and slaps in the face with the other..

Perhaps mikey just got to the point of praising via money..


Everyone wants to put him on a pedestal because he won a couple of super bowls.. it was great folks but after all the talent went away Y'all forget he was pretty mediocre.. could not get his players up for unimportant games, seemed to focus way to much on OAK.. As long as we won those his season was very good.. IIRC took almost 7-8 years to win an early game on the east coast and just last year IIRC to win one in Florida.. we were lousy lately on national TV..

Those things that Jake talked about unable to connect with his players.. Once Gary left this team has IMHO sucked.. Just maybe it was Gary for most of these years.. trying to be the buffer between the HC and his teams and QB in this case..

Glad he is gone and wish him the best in the future, I feel the same for mikey..

rcsodak
02-02-2009, 10:12 PM
I disagree. He didnt want to back up Jay so Denver decided to trade him to Tampa and he when he found out that he had to compete for the starting job there he chose retirement. Certainly his perogative but he wanted the job handed to him and when it became clear that it wasnt going to be he quit. At the end of the day, im glad he's happy being retired. But he should of shown more class than he did when the mic was put in his face. Although i agree with his quote about Shanhan no longer motivating players he probably should of left it at that and thanked Shanhan for the opportunity to even be a part of this team. Not sit there and pile on after the guy gets canned. Thats just tacky. A majority of his success was due to Shanahan whether he wants to admit that or not.

I think you're cornfusing him with asshley...who didn't want to compete with javon.

Unless, of course, you REALLY want to sit there and tell all of us that jake
was going to be given the chance to beat out cutler, the #12 pick, in camp. :lol:

He said he didn't want to be a backup qb in the league. What's wrong with that?
And why would he want to go to another team, and have to learn yet another O scheme, at his age?

He's happy with his decision, and his life. Why people can't just be thankful for the time he gave the team, and let him move on with his life without digging up silly-assed articles, is beyond me.






oh wait....






....it's the off-season! :tsk:

Lonestar
02-02-2009, 10:19 PM
Plummer-
Att-1596
Comp-944
Yds-11,631
TD-78
INT- 47
Fumbles/Lost- 21/11
Highest %- 62
AVG Comp. %- 59%

Cutler-

Att-1220
Comp-762
Yds-9,024
TD-57
INT-37
Fumbles/Lost-24/8
Highest Comp. %-63%
AVG Comp. %- 62.5%

Plummer started an entire season of more games, was a veteran of 10 years and didn't have the 'benefit' of the worst defense in the League when he was on the sidelines for two seasons.

Thanks for playing. :coffee:

You just made me think of something with your post.. Even if they had eh worst defense in the world last year perhaps it was the impetus for passing more long ball stuff.


DEN QB's 2003-08 taking out a the half year for each of them 2006 for not other reason that it was the first year for both of them with an OLINE that had very little drop back pocket skills.. that was designed for ZBS and roll out passing..
2003-05 Passing Rushing Fumbles
Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rate Att Yds Avg TD FUM Lost
277 456 60.7 3,366 7.4 18 7 22 135 90.2 46 151 3.3 2 4 2
303 521 58.2 4,089 7.8 27 20 15 90 84.5 62 202 3.3 1 6 1
189 302 62.6 2,182 7.2 15 7 14 73 91.2 37 205 5.5 3 4 2

2007-08 Passing Rushing Fumbles
384 616 62.3 4,526 7.3 25 18 11 69 86.0 57 200 3.5 2 5 2
297 467 63.6 3,497 7.5 20 14 27 153 88.1 44 205 4.7 1 11 4


We all know that Jake was not as skilled as the cannon cutler for throwing long.. but at the time it was not designed, nor have the players to do so.. and Pleeeeeeease do not bring up ashely...... We all know what kind of loser he was..

Yes I know the running game and the defense was not the same but the above are pretty solid numbers for both of them..

rcsodak
02-02-2009, 10:21 PM
I'd like to see how Plummer would have fared with one of or arguably the worst defense in the NFL as Cutler has been fortunate enough to have the last two seasons.

Keep trying Plummer lovers. Going on 3 years without Jakey-poo. Move on.

Browncos :coffee:

Shazam!
02-02-2009, 10:35 PM
Plummer-

Att-1596
Comp-944
Yds-11,631
TD-78
INT- 47
Fumbles/Lost- 21/11
Highest Comp.%- 62
AVG Comp.%- 59%

Cutler-

Att-1220
Comp-762
Yds-9,024
TD-57
INT-37
Fumbles/Lost-24/8
Highest Comp.%-63%
AVG Comp.%- 62.5%

Plummer started an entire season of more games, was a veteran of 10 years, had a much more balanced team and didn't have the 'benefit' of the worst defense in the League when he was on the sidelines for two seasons.

Has it been mentioned Jay is going into his 3rd full Season as a starting QB?

Thanks for playing. :coffee:


For the sake of it, let's see Jake the Wonderman's Stats in HIS first three seasons, compared to Cutler's.

Cutler-

Att-1220
Comp-762
Yds-9,024
TD-57
INT-37
Fumbles/Lost-24/8
Highest Comp.%-63%
Avg. Comp.%- 62.5%

Plummer-

Att-1224
Comp-682
Yds-8051
TD-49
INT-59
Fumbles-25
Highest Comp.%- 59%
Avg. Comp.%-55%

So, in LESS GAMES, Cutler threw almost 100 more completions with less attempts, more TDs, 20 INTs less, a much better TD/INT ratio, less fumbles, a higher completion percentage... Better. IN EVERY WAY.

Lonestar
02-02-2009, 10:39 PM
For the sake of it, let's see Jake the Wonderman's Stats in HIS first three seasons, compared to Cutler's.


So, in LESS GAMES, Cutler threw almost 100 more completions with less attempts, more TDs, 20 INTs less, a much better TD/INT ratio, less fumbles, a higher completion percentage... Better. IN EVERY WAY.

I'm glad he is here

We all get it he is/should be a better QB.. let it go.. Jake is gone and so is mikey the IMHO root of all evil since the HOF crew retired..

Lets all try and rememebr this is about Jake and his comment about mikey..

Watchthemiddle
02-02-2009, 10:39 PM
All these secret man crushes....errrr..theads started by some crack me up rofl! 17-20 as a starter? Is that what bronco fans are satisfied with in order to have a man crush? Thats pathetic!!! I am a realist that expects môre out of a 3 year player drafted 12th overall. The honeymoon is over. Even Jake took the Cards to the playoffs his second year. The kool aid crash is gonna hurt. For your sanity and bronco fans, i truelly hope the new HC can help Cut. If not we have many long years ahead of us.

rcsodak
02-02-2009, 10:42 PM
When Jake was here the team was much more balanced than it is now. The team comes and goes with Cutler. That never happened with Jake.

If McCoach works out, Cutler excels and the defense improved, THEN the Jay-haters will say 'Well, Jake didn't have this kind of team.'

As far as Jake's 'winning record,' QBs are not MLB pitchers. Jake still made rookie/inexperienced mistakes. Cutler is still inexperienced. Jay is going into his 3rd Season as the starter. He's a work in progress on a team with a pathetic defense.

You can't have it both ways.

I can't believe this argument still goes on.

Ya'll crack me up!

For one thing, if cutler progresses as you say he will, then better for the team, right?

Because in case you missed i-c-p's previous post, you might look at the beginning of this thread, to see just who started it.

We 'jakesters' only come out of the woodwork when:
a. his name is taken in vain
b. cutler is overly praised
c. cutler implodes on the field

Griese sucked and has hardly any fans
Jake got the team to the playoffs every year, and to the AFCC. More people than not, were including him in MVP talk, when he was playing lights out.
And he still has fans.

I guess if ya'll don't want to 'argue' about jake's play, then don't bring him up in a disparaging thread. Easy enuf. Yes?

Shazam!
02-02-2009, 10:43 PM
If there is one person here guilty of a man-crush... We all know who it is.

Lonestar
02-02-2009, 10:44 PM
ENOUGH already


lets get

:focus:

Shazam!
02-02-2009, 10:46 PM
Jake got the team to the playoffs every year, and to the AFCC.

Therein lies the problem. The 'Jakesters' act as if it was one man vs. 53 of the opposing team throughout his tenure. Jake had a MUCH BETTER TEAM. Denver's defense then was like the '85 Bears compared to what there is here now, they couldn't get pressure on a QB if it was 7 on 11.

Shanahan was fired because the team was going down the toilet and the defense was a laughing stock in the most sad collapse in AFC West history.

Slick
02-02-2009, 10:47 PM
I can't believe a thread about Jake Plummer, his comments about Shanahan, or debating his play still makes it 16 pages.

Incredible.

rcsodak
02-02-2009, 10:50 PM
thing you'll learn about me is that I'll call it like I see it. When people make stupid comments such as the one I retorted to, I'll call it, I don't care if there's a stupid rule or not that says I shouldn't do it.

Guess we should just start calling you 'short-timer' then..... :coffee:

rcsodak
02-02-2009, 11:16 PM
I can't believe a thread about Jake Plummer, his comments about Shanahan, or debating his play still makes it 16 pages.

Incredible.

Make your pages = 40posts, and it'll be only 6pages. :elefant:


Better?:D

DenverBronkHoes
02-03-2009, 12:11 AM
atta boy Jake.......

omac
02-03-2009, 10:31 AM
"He's a great quarterback, don't get me wrong," Plummer said. "I'm not saying anything to disrespect him. I think he's a helluva player. But Jeff George was a helluva player. There's a lot of guys who have been great players."

I just noticed this. Another backhanded compliment by Plummer, comparing him to Jeff George. Here's what teammates have said about Jeff George ....

http://espn.go.com/chrismortensen/s/2001/0926/1255617.html


"Plays like he's scared."
"Doesn't compete."
"No confidence."
"Not prepared."

That is the exact opposite of what we've seen from Cutler, and what his teammates and coaches say about him.

Plummer sure oozes bitterness. Wish he'd stick to handball and stop piling on his former team. :coffee:

Northman
02-03-2009, 12:17 PM
Plummer sure oozes bitterness.

As do the Jakettes. :laugh:

TXBRONC
02-03-2009, 12:25 PM
Several of zealots paid lip service to saying they would support Jay, (although I had my doubts) but that has proved to be a bunch of b.s.

Northman
02-03-2009, 12:29 PM
Several of zealots paid lip service to saying they would support Jay, (although I had my doubts) but that has proved to be a bunch of b.s.


Dude, i saw that coming a million miles away. Even more so on the Mane. Reminds me a lot of the individuals who follow players from team to team as if they were a player's personal stalker. Scary stuff man. :lol:

TXBRONC
02-03-2009, 12:34 PM
Dude, i saw that coming a million miles away. Even more so on the Mane. Reminds me a lot of the individuals who follow players from team to team as if they were a player's personal stalker. Scary stuff man. :lol:

I was trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. I expected it but I was hoping that they would prove me wrong but they didn't.

Lonestar
02-03-2009, 12:37 PM
I just noticed this. Another backhanded compliment by Plummer, comparing him to Jeff George. Here's what teammates have said about Jeff George ....

http://espn.go.com/chrismortensen/s/2001/0926/1255617.html



That is the exact opposite of what we've seen from Cutler, and what his teammates and coaches say about him.

Plummer sure oozes bitterness. Wish he'd stick to handball and stop piling on his former team. :coffee:

Hey how about what most of the commentators said of Jeff George has a cannon of an arm, throws into tight spots without worrying about the consequences and is a coach killer..

All three of those could apply in this case..

I realize that because Jake was not John and that he did marched to his own drum that a lot of folks did not like the guy..

Time to let it go.. he is gone happily retired and I'd guess would not have had anything to say, had some one not shoved and mic in his face and asked the question..

Lets move on to Jay and the new guy.. :salute:

Northman
02-03-2009, 12:39 PM
Hey how about what most of the commentators said of Jeff George has a cannon of an arm, throws into tight spots without worrying about the consequences and is a coach killer..

All three of those could apply in this case..

I realize that because Jake was not John and that he did marched to his own drum that a lot of folks did not like the guy..

Time to let it go.. he is gone happily retired and I'd guess would not have had anything to say, had some one not shoved and mic in his face and asked the question..

Lets move on to Jay and the new guy.. :salute:


I dont think Jay routinely gets into public arguements with his head coach like George did so i disagree with you there. As for letting Jake do his thing, fine, but its time for him to learn the NO COMMENT line and then all will be well.

Lonestar
02-03-2009, 12:42 PM
Dude, i saw that coming a million miles away. Even more so on the Mane. Reminds me a lot of the individuals who follow players from team to team as if they were a player's personal stalker. Scary stuff man. :lol:


Not all of us wanted Jay but I know of NO one that has not moved on to Jay is our QB and wish him and the franchise well since Jake has retired..

If the Jake haters would let it go, then I'd guess that very few IF anyone would bring Jakes name other than he is happy and doing his thing in Idaho..
I do not think that Jake is the only player that worked for mike that is less than thrilled with his ex HC.

Time to bury the hatchet and move on..

Northman
02-03-2009, 12:47 PM
Not all of us wanted Jay but I know of NO one that has not moved on to Jay is our QB and wish him and the franchise well since Jake has retired..

If the Jake haters would let it go, then I'd guess that very few IF anyone would bring Jakes name other than he is happy and doing his thing in Idaho..
I do not think that Jake is the only player that worked for mike that is less than thrilled with his ex HC.

Time to bury the hatchet and move on..

I guess the irony here is than if someone starts a thread that is less than thrilled about his comments to a SB winning coach that maybe the people who do like Jake should just stay out then? I mean, you guys act like we shouldnt care but then go through great lengths to argue in his defense. I think moving on should apply to everyone involved not just a certain group of individuals.

Lonestar
02-03-2009, 12:58 PM
I guess the irony here is than if someone starts a thread that is less than thrilled about his comments to a SB winning coach that maybe the people who do like Jake should just stay out then? I mean, you guys act like we shouldnt care but then go through great lengths to argue in his defense. I think moving on should apply to everyone involved not just a certain group of individuals.

Let me see if I understand your thought logic here,

So someone that likes Jake should not reply to a negative thread so we are not seen as liking him..

Yeah I guess that makes since..

SO next time someone thrashes Jay for making bone head mistakes all of those that like him should not respond..

That makes sense lets see how it works..

Northman
02-03-2009, 01:00 PM
Let me see if I understand your thought logic here,

So someone that likes Jake should not reply to a negative thread so we are not seen as liking him..

Yeah I guess that makes since..

SO next time someone thrashes Jay for making bone head mistakes all of those that like him should not respond..

That makes sense lets see how it works..


Well, technically. Going by your philosphy Jay is the current Qb. Not Jake. Its that whole moving on part right? :lol: