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Shazam!
12-08-2011, 02:32 PM
Kiz proclaims Champ Bailey besy defensive player in Broncos' history...


To tell the truth, cornerback Champ Bailey didn't expect to be here. He didn't expect to be in first place. Heck, he didn't expect to be in Denver. He was as good as gone from the Broncos a year ago.

"A year ago, I didn't know if the Broncos even wanted me," Bailey said Wednesday. "I didn't know if I would be back. The signs were it wasn't going to happen."

The improbable tale of how Denver became the NFL's best comeback story of 2011 could not have been written without Bailey coming back to town, when he could have found fortune elsewhere. So maybe it's time we recognize this 10-time Pro Bowler for all he's worth: Bailey is the best defensive player in franchise history.

"Thanks," Bailey told me, accepting the praise with humility.

Link To Full Article -

http://www.denverpost.com/kiszla/ci_19494180



Not buying this. He could sell me on him being the best defensive player on Denver's roster the last 20 years, because he's one of the select few players on Denver's roster over the years to be top 3 or 5 of his position on defense. But best in Broncos' history?? No Sir.

hotcarl
12-08-2011, 02:37 PM
yeah i read that in the newspaper, thanks, by

spikerman
12-08-2011, 03:02 PM
I'd put Randy Gradishar first with ZERO hesitation.

Ravage!!!
12-08-2011, 03:24 PM
I would say Al Wilson was in the top 3-5 at his position

Shazam!
12-08-2011, 03:32 PM
yeah i read that in the newspaper, thanks, by

Add something constructive or even relevant for once trollboy.


I would say Al Wilson was in the top 3-5 at his position

His career being cut short due to injury will exclude big Al from any inclusion IMO. Champ has the longevity and can play more years. Many better Broncos over the years put in more time than Wilson.

Ravage!!!
12-08-2011, 03:33 PM
I'm talking about when he was playing. He was a top 3-5 player at his position. I thought thats what you were talking about, considering you mentioned Atwater's name.

Shazam!
12-08-2011, 03:37 PM
I should've been more specific. I will edit.

Take the best CBs and still Champ is at the top.

Besides my comment Rav, do you think Champ IS the best Broncos defender of all time? That's Kiz' angle here.

Dreadnought
12-08-2011, 03:37 PM
I agree with his top five, but I''m not sure about the order. Might even put Meck at the top due to his pure versatility

Ravage!!!
12-08-2011, 03:44 PM
I should've been more specific. I will edit.

Take the best CBs and still Champ is at the top.

Besides my comment Rav, do you think Champ IS the best Broncos defender of all time? That's Kiz' angle here.

No. I think Grandshir fits that. I even would put Atwater and Mech higher on the list.

Poet
12-08-2011, 03:47 PM
Champ was considered the best corner in the NFL for a long time. When you are considered to be the best, and you are the best for a long time your name will belong in that conversation.

I think that Champ could get the nod just because he was dominant in an era where corner play was greatly hampered by the rules.

claymore
12-08-2011, 03:51 PM
Champ is the best. But he wasnt the most important to the team. IMO.

Nick
12-08-2011, 07:16 PM
Champ is the best then would go Meck. Champ is the best complete corner to ever play the game IMO.

chazoe60
12-08-2011, 07:55 PM
I love and respect Meck and Atwater from having grown up watching them, and they are both great and amazing players. Atwater is my favorite Bronco of all time. I'm not old enough to remember Gradishar playing but I've read a bunch and seen a lot of film and I believe it's a crime he's not in the HOF.

But with that said, I consider Champ Bailey to be the best overall CB to ever play. When you take into account the era Champ has and is playing in, it is remarkable the longevity he's had as a true Shutdown Corner. There were seasons in which the oposition only dared throw his way 10 or so times in 16 games.

I also take into account that Champ has had this amazing career while having something like 10 different DCs in 11 years or whatever. And the fact that for quite a few of those years he didn't have a very good pass rush helping him and he was still the best lockdown CB in the league for many of those seasons.

Deion was probably a little better in coverage but his horrible tackling and complete lack of interest in helping against the run I rank Champ higher.

For those reasons and others I agree with Kiz that Champ is our greatest defender.

dogfish
12-08-2011, 08:04 PM
although it pains me greatly to agree with anything kiszla said, he's absolutely correct. . . certainly no offense to guys like grad and meck, but not even atwater transcended his position the way champ has. . . chaze is correct to point out the enormous difference in rules that champ has competed under-- being a tackling machine ILB in the 70's was exponentially less difficult than being a true shutdown corner in the BS 5-yard chuck rule era. . .

nevcraw
12-08-2011, 08:29 PM
Ma Tamavasa anyone? how soon we forget.

Dean
12-08-2011, 10:29 PM
Don't get me wrong I think Champ is a great player but we have had other great defensive backs. At corner, Louis Wright may well have been the best to step between the lines and Goose Gonsoulin and Billy Thompson at safety were damn good.

As far as best overall defensive player, I'd take Gradishar hands down.

BroncoTech
12-08-2011, 10:36 PM
I'd have to go with Champ, for his cover skills and tackling ability. He's like karma that way, he always gets his man. Grad, Meck and Atwater deserve serious consideration. Al Wilson and Tom Jackson are maybe a bit of a stretch, I still admire both.

Intentionally left off my list are Alzado and Romo, because they were a**holes.

Dzone
12-08-2011, 10:40 PM
If he is a first ballot HOFer then does that automatically put him at the top of Bronco defenders?
Of course the HOF selection process is an absolute sham.

NightTrainLayne
12-08-2011, 10:59 PM
Ma Tamavasa anyone? how soon we forget.

How soon we forget. .. .how to spell his name. :D :D :D

Canmore
12-08-2011, 11:22 PM
I love and respect Meck and Atwater from having grown up watching them, and they are both great and amazing players. Atwater is my favorite Bronco of all time. I'm not old enough to remember Gradishar playing but I've read a bunch and seen a lot of film and I believe it's a crime he's not in the HOF.

But with that said, I consider Champ Bailey to be the best overall CB to ever play. When you take into account the era Champ has and is playing in, it is remarkable the longevity he's had as a true Shutdown Corner. There were seasons in which the oposition only dared throw his way 10 or so times in 16 games.

I also take into account that Champ has had this amazing career while having something like 10 different DCs in 11 years or whatever. And the fact that for quite a few of those years he didn't have a very good pass rush helping him and he was still the best lockdown CB in the league for many of those seasons.

Deion was probably a little better in coverage but his horrible tackling and complete lack of interest in helping against the run I rank Champ higher.

For those reasons and others I agree with Kiz that Champ is our greatest defender.

Spot on. Bailey is the best corner in the history of the game. Sanders "may" have been the best cover man but he couldn't tackle Gumby. If you were to design a cornerback, it would be Champ Bailey. In an era were you can't breathe on a receiver, Bailey is the epitome of a shut down corner. I was to little to remember Gradishar so maybe it isn't fair to say Bailey is better than him but Champ is a better defender than the rest of the list. That said, I feel confident in saying Bailey is the best defensive player in the history of the Broncos. Only wish he had played his entire career here.

NameUsedBefore
12-08-2011, 11:26 PM
I also believe Bailey is the best all-around corner ever so yeah, Kiszla's right.

Poet
12-08-2011, 11:33 PM
Spot on. Bailey is the best corner in the history of the game. Sanders "may" have been the best cover man but he couldn't tackle Gumby. If you were to design a cornerback, it would be Champ Bailey. In an era were you can't breathe on a receiver, Bailey is the epitome of a shut down corner. I was to little to remember Gradishar so maybe it isn't fair to say Bailey is better than him but Champ is a better defender than the rest of the list. That said, I feel confident in saying Bailey is the best defensive player in the history of the Broncos. Only wish he had played his entire career here.

Rod Woodson is a better corner than Bailey IMO. He was a better tackler, just as good in coverage and has longevity second to none.


Sanders was a better cover guy and he made any QB pay for a mistake with a pick six. Simply put, criticizing Sanders because he was a bad tackler is like criticizing Peyton Manning for being immobile. The entire criticism is blown out of proportion even more because, let's face it, a lot of people don't like Sanders, the Cowboys or both.

That's not a diss to Champ, because he is a top five corner of all-time. When you're that good, you will have a case for being the best.

Canmore
12-08-2011, 11:53 PM
Rod Woodson is a better corner than Bailey IMO. He was a better tackler, just as good in coverage and has longevity second to none.


Sanders was a better cover guy and he made any QB pay for a mistake with a pick six. Simply put, criticizing Sanders because he was a bad tackler is like criticizing Peyton Manning for being immobile. The entire criticism is blown out of proportion even more because, let's face it, a lot of people don't like Sanders, the Cowboys or both.

That's not a diss to Champ, because he is a top five corner of all-time. When you're that good, you will have a case for being the best.

Had to laugh, :laugh:. Sanders was a horrible liability in the run game and couldn't tackle my daughter in the open field. He "may" have been the most gifted cover man in the history of the game but he certainly was not the best corner.

Woodson was amazing and I don't like the Steelers any more than the Cowboys. I admit I'm biased but I will stand my statement that you build the ultimate corner in a likeness of Bailey. And I take Woodson over Sanders also.

Dzone
12-09-2011, 12:02 AM
After seeing Derelle Revis get spun like a helicopter by Tebow with his half ass attempt at tackling, you have to appreciate Champ even more.
Then you hear Alfred Williams say Revis deserves the DPOY over Von Miller.

Canmore
12-09-2011, 12:08 AM
After seeing Derelle Revis get spun like a helicopter by Tebow with his half ass attempt at tackling, you have to appreciate Champ even more.
Then you hear Alfred Williams say Revis deserves the DPOY over Von Miller.

Revis for DPOY. :laugh::laugh::laugh: That effort on Tebow was :laugh::laugh::laugh:.

Poet
12-09-2011, 12:14 AM
DeMarcus Ware is my vote for DPOY. Most consistent pass rusher the league has seen in a long, long time.

Canmore
12-09-2011, 12:27 AM
DeMarcus Ware is my vote for DPOY. Most consistent pass rusher the league has seen in a long, long time.

DPOY, that's a hard one. I know he plays on a crappy team but Jared Allen is having another big season also.

chazoe60
12-09-2011, 01:08 AM
I think Phillip Rivers should win DPOY. He's the best player for every defense he's played against. :laugh:

Ravage!!!
12-09-2011, 01:55 AM
Rod Woodson is a better corner than Bailey IMO. He was a better tackler, just as good in coverage and has longevity second to none.


Sanders was a better cover guy and he made any QB pay for a mistake with a pick six. Simply put, criticizing Sanders because he was a bad tackler is like criticizing Peyton Manning for being immobile. The entire criticism is blown out of proportion even more because, let's face it, a lot of people don't like Sanders, the Cowboys or both.

That's not a diss to Champ, because he is a top five corner of all-time. When you're that good, you will have a case for being the best.

I dont think its fair to put Sanders in the category of Woodson and Champ, because Champ and Rod both actually were good on the run support. Sanders did everything he could to protect his face.

But goign back, I think Rod Woodson is the best corner I know of.

Ravage!!!
12-09-2011, 01:56 AM
If he is a first ballot HOFer then does that automatically put him at the top of Bronco defenders?
Of course the HOF selection process is an absolute sham.

Champ won't be a first ballot. Do you realize how few corners are in the HoF? Because of the position he plays, Champ will make the HoF, but it won't be a first ballot.

Canmore
12-09-2011, 02:07 AM
Champ won't be a first ballot. Do you realize how few corners are in the HoF? Because of the position he plays, Champ will make the HoF, but it won't be a first ballot.

This is an interesting question. Is Champ Bailey a first ballot Hall of Famer? If Bailey played in Washington DC his whole career, yes. Playing in Denver, probably not. Gary Zimmerman was all decade, two decades. One of only six players in the history of the league. All are in the Hall of Fame. The all decade teams are the same voters as the Hall of Fame. Zimmerman had the luxury of playing in Minnesota and Denver. He should have been a shoe in first ballot Hall of Famer. Instead he got to wait a couple of years. All because of where he played in my opinion. Same for Champ.

BroncoStud
12-09-2011, 10:26 AM
Champ is one of the best CBs, cover AND tackle, in NFL history, and did this when offenses and rules were designed to favor throwing the football.

You guys can talk about Meck and Our past greats all you like, Champ has been more dominant than any of them and for a very long time.

He also returned kicks and played a little offense under Shanahan as well.

Champ is the man, so dominant for so long.

Poet
12-09-2011, 03:28 PM
I dont think its fair to put Sanders in the category of Woodson and Champ, because Champ and Rod both actually were good on the run support. Sanders did everything he could to protect his face.

But goign back, I think Rod Woodson is the best corner I know of.

I understand the point, but I don't care about tackling for a corner. Deion tackled when he HAD too. In the playoffs he tackled, or at least tried to.

I understand the premise of the point, a defender is supposed to defend against the ball carrier. But to me it's like dissing Freeney for sucking ass at run defense. It's not really his job...it's his job....but not really.

Sanders put it out there that simply put he was going to cover people and he wasn't going to risk injury tackling a player unless he had too.

People criticized him for playing soft coverage, which really is a compliment because he could play today with no issues.

When my man was inducted into the Hall of Fame (I am biased towards him, no doubt) they showed clips of him as a Niner in the playoffs bump and run covering MICHAEL IRVIN...and he was WINNING.

When it came down to big boy football, you had THE man.

I guess I will put it like this - you cannot name five better corners than Deion Sanders. A top five without his name has no merit to anyone who doesn't take him off his list because they don't like him. If you are a top five guy, and I said the same thing about Elway, you will have a strong argument for number one of all-time.

To me, he's the best.

wayninja
12-09-2011, 03:31 PM
I agree with his top five, but I''m not sure about the order. Might even put Meck at the top due to his pure versatility

This. Albino Rhino rules all.

D1g1tal j1m
12-09-2011, 03:43 PM
During my lifetime of watching the Broncos, Champ is hands down the best Defensive player on the Broncos. He shuts down half the field and tackles better than some LB's. With the lack of a pass-rush the last few years, he still was able to cover the top WR's even when there was more time for the QB to look down the field.

Canmore
12-09-2011, 03:51 PM
I understand the point, but I don't care about tackling for a corner. Deion tackled when he HAD too. In the playoffs he tackled, or at least tried to.

I understand the premise of the point, a defender is supposed to defend against the ball carrier. But to me it's like dissing Freeney for sucking ass at run defense. It's not really his job...it's his job....but not really.

Sanders put it out there that simply put he was going to cover people and he wasn't going to risk injury tackling a player unless he had too.

People criticized him for playing soft coverage, which really is a compliment because he could play today with no issues.

When my man was inducted into the Hall of Fame (I am biased towards him, no doubt) they showed clips of him as a Niner in the playoffs bump and run covering MICHAEL IRVIN...and he was WINNING.

When it came down to big boy football, you had THE man.

I guess I will put it like this - you cannot name five better corners than Deion Sanders. A top five without his name has no merit to anyone who doesn't take him off his list because they don't like him. If you are a top five guy, and I said the same thing about Elway, you will have a strong argument for number one of all-time.

To me, he's the best.

I don't have a problem with those that think Sanders is the best corner of all time, I just don't agree. Deion's coverage skills and return ability are as good as anyone has seen in this league. Still, I'll take Champ Bailey. He's the best cover corner of his era and plays like a safety in run support. He rarely misses a tackle. Definitely, Champ and Deion are two of the best to ever play the position.

Ravage!!!
12-09-2011, 04:19 PM
I understand the point, but I don't care about tackling for a corner. Deion tackled when he HAD too. In the playoffs he tackled, or at least tried to.



I care. I think corners are just as responsible for defending against the run as the rest of the defense is.

You are a BIG proponent of WRs having good numbers with YAC, right? How about a LB being able to cover in pass zones?

I think this is the same thing. If you pigeon hole a player to say that "they are supposed to throw the ball, not run it"..."this player is supposed to catch teh ball, not run it"..." this player is supposed to guard the receiver, not tackle" then you take away from categories that can make these individual players a COMPLETE player.

Sanders was great at one aspect of his job, but wasn't a complete player. Rod Woodson was absolutely great at both. Champ, is great at both.

Ravage!!!
12-09-2011, 04:23 PM
This is an interesting question. Is Champ Bailey a first ballot Hall of Famer? If Bailey played in Washington DC his whole career, yes. Playing in Denver, probably not. Gary Zimmerman was all decade, two decades. One of only six players in the history of the league. All are in the Hall of Fame. The all decade teams are the same voters as the Hall of Fame. Zimmerman had the luxury of playing in Minnesota and Denver. He should have been a shoe in first ballot Hall of Famer. Instead he got to wait a couple of years. All because of where he played in my opinion. Same for Champ.

Meh... I don't think Champ is a first round HoF'er because of the position he plays, not the city in which he played it.

wayninja
12-09-2011, 04:44 PM
I think this is the same thing. If you pigeon hole a player to say that "they are supposed to throw the ball, not run it"..."this player is supposed to catch teh ball, not run it"..." this player is supposed to guard the receiver, not tackle" then you take away from categories that can make these individual players a COMPLETE player.

I hear ya, Rav, I think Tebow is a complete player as well.

Ravage!!!
12-09-2011, 04:46 PM
I hear ya, Rav, I think Tebow is a complete player as well.

Not yet, but lets hope he grows into that :beer:

Poet
12-09-2011, 05:01 PM
I care. I think corners are just as responsible for defending against the run as the rest of the defense is.

You are a BIG proponent of WRs having good numbers with YAC, right? How about a LB being able to cover in pass zones?

I think this is the same thing. If you pigeon hole a player to say that "they are supposed to throw the ball, not run it"..."this player is supposed to catch teh ball, not run it"..." this player is supposed to guard the receiver, not tackle" then you take away from categories that can make these individual players a COMPLETE player.

Sanders was great at one aspect of his job, but wasn't a complete player. Rod Woodson was absolutely great at both. Champ, is great at both.

Yeah but Sanders was clearly better at coverage over damn near any corner. As far as being a complete player, what about his role as a kick returner and WR? He scored what, 6 receiving TD's as a Cowboy when their WR's were beaten up?

D1g1tal j1m
12-09-2011, 05:33 PM
Deion never played for the Broncos so therefore should not be mentioned in this thread about the greatest Defensive Player in Broncos History.

Champ is the best CB to ever put on the Broncos Jersey, period. He was regarded as the best CB in the league just a few years ago and is still a perennial Pro Bowler to this day.

I say, he is the best Defensive player I have seen in a Broncos uniform. And he will get into Canton as a Bronco. There is no debating that, when he gets in is irreverent as there will be a bust of him when he decides to hang them up....

Jsteve01
12-09-2011, 06:45 PM
Ma Tamavasa anyone? how soon we forget.

double 5 baby :beer:

Harold Hasselbach has something to say about this article as well.

Jsteve01
12-09-2011, 06:48 PM
you know I scoffed at the title of this thread when I read it but I don't think I can argue with his basic premise. I loved Randy, Steve and Meck. But I don't think I would say that any of them were the best to ever play their position. Champ on the other hand has been at the top of his profession at a skill fast twitch position for over a decade and is the most complete corner in the history of the league. I say the nod goes to Champ

BroncoStud
12-09-2011, 08:02 PM
I understand the point, but I don't care about tackling for a corner. Deion tackled when he HAD too. In the playoffs he tackled, or at least tried to.

I understand the premise of the point, a defender is supposed to defend against the ball carrier. But to me it's like dissing Freeney for sucking ass at run defense. It's not really his job...it's his job....but not really.

Sanders put it out there that simply put he was going to cover people and he wasn't going to risk injury tackling a player unless he had too.

People criticized him for playing soft coverage, which really is a compliment because he could play today with no issues.

When my man was inducted into the Hall of Fame (I am biased towards him, no doubt) they showed clips of him as a Niner in the playoffs bump and run covering MICHAEL IRVIN...and he was WINNING.

When it came down to big boy football, you had THE man.

I guess I will put it like this - you cannot name five better corners than Deion Sanders. A top five without his name has no merit to anyone who doesn't take him off his list because they don't like him. If you are a top five guy, and I said the same thing about Elway, you will have a strong argument for number one of all-time.

To me, he's the best.

Primetime couldn't tackle a dummy. Champ is better, hands down. You're entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't make it the right opinion. :laugh:

broncofaninfla
12-09-2011, 08:24 PM
I get the feeling a lot of you never saw Gradishar, Mecklenberg, Atwater, or even Rich Tombstone Jackson? We've actually been blessed to have a lot of quality defensive players on this team, albeit some time ago. Champ could certainly be argued but when you make this debate you just have to bring up these guys as consideration as well.

To me Gradishar was the best I ever watched. The guy was as good or better than Lambert back then but the Steelers were winning Super Bowl's and Lambert got more press. He was a truly special player and most def should be in the HOF.

Jsteve01
12-09-2011, 10:00 PM
I saw them. I believe all should be in the hall. Gradishar is hands down the best backer to play for the broncos and easily top 5 of all time. I just think champ is the best to play his position and hence I agree with kiz

BroncoStud
12-10-2011, 12:06 AM
Meck was my favorite Bronco for a very long time. Atwater was a GREAT hitter but often a liability in the passing game. Grad was a GREAT LBer, no doubt. Tom, another great Bronco.

But in my opinion NONE of those guys played at this high of a level, this long, with the rules so designed against them. Champ has been the best or near the best at his position for a decade, and half the time or more has done it with no pass rush.

You can't tell me Meck was as well-rounded and dominant as Champ... It just isn't accurate. Champ is the epitome of sustained excellence in the NFL.

Canmore
12-10-2011, 12:27 AM
Meck was my favorite Bronco for a very long time. Atwater was a GREAT hitter but often a liability in the passing game. Grad was a GREAT LBer, no doubt. Tom, another great Bronco.

But in my opinion NONE of those guys played at this high of a level, this long, with the rules so designed against them. Champ has been the best or near the best at his position for a decade, and half the time or more has done it with no pass rush.

You can't tell me Meck was as well-rounded and dominant as Champ... It just isn't accurate. Champ is the epitome of sustained excellence in the NFL.

In an era were the rules are such that you can't breathe on an opposing receiver, Champ Bailey still shuts people out. Quite simply the best cover corner of his era. As a plus, he tackles like a safety. Rarely misses. Ten Pro-Bowls and counting. Overall, the best corner in the history of the game.

wayninja
12-10-2011, 12:30 AM
You can't tell me Meck was as well-rounded and dominant as Champ... It just isn't accurate. Champ is the epitome of sustained excellence in the NFL.

As well rounded? Meck played all front 7 positions in a single game, multiple times. Don't talk to Meck about being well rounded.

Hey, I love Champ, he's the freakin' man, but Meck is so seriously underrated that it almost chokes me up...

Canmore
12-10-2011, 12:38 AM
As well rounded? Meck played all front 7 positions in a single game, multiple times. Don't talk to Meck about being well rounded.

Hey, I love Champ, he's the freakin' man, but Meck is so seriously underrated that it almost chokes me up...

Agreed. The Albino Rhino was one incredibly talented football player. There wasn't a position in the front seven he couldn't man. We are incredibly lucky to have witnessed such talented individuals in Denver.