PDA

View Full Version : Sundquist or Shannahan



skycoyote
01-26-2009, 11:09 PM
Interesting article I found while researching Shanny's demise. Notice its dated last year, its from the sporting news writer Mike Florio.


Posted: March 14, 2008

With the Denver Broncos underachieving and owner Pat Bowlen finally getting antsy about it, coach Mike Shanahan has used his one and only lifeline.


Shanahan placed the blame on a man who deserved little or none of it.

And so ends the 16-year Broncos career of general manager Ted Sundquist, who was fired Wednesday. It's common knowledge in league circles that Sundquist held the GM title -- but none of the decision-making power.

The Broncos were and are a team run by Shanahan. Holding Sundquist accountable for Shanahan's oft-reckless personnel decisions is no different than blaming rain on the weatherman.

Though there's a way to do the mental gymnastics permitting a conclusion that Sundquist was fired because of his failures in setting the table for Shanahan, it would be unreasonable to conclude that a guy who has been involved in laying out the plates, cups and utensils (first in a player personnel role, and then as GM) since 1992 suddenly lost his fastball.

The Sundquist firing is all about change because of stagnating on-field results, and it gives Shanahan a way to avoid blame. Shanahan, however, now has put himself in the line of fire if the team continues to struggle.

The fact Sundquist, and not Shanahan, was fired is proof that, in Denver, the coach sits higher on the totem pole than the GM -- the exact opposite of the power structure in most NFL franchises. Usually, the GM supervises the coach and the GM gets to fire at least one or two of them before the GM's inability to hire effective coaches is exposed.

Perhaps the most bizarre aspect of the firing is its timing. General managers and other scouting employees typically are fired after the draft because the two-day marathon of collecting new players is the climax of the scout's work for the year.

By dumping Sundquist less than seven weeks before the draft, the Broncos put Sundquist on the job market with full knowledge of the Broncos' draft plan. He now can pack up his research and opinions and peddle them to the highest bidder -- such as the Oakland Raiders, the Broncos' archrivals.

The timing of the move also suggests that Shanahan made the decision to fire Sundquist during or immediately after the '07 season and then spent January, February and half of March convincing Bowlen to go along with cutting loose the long-time team employee. The only plausible alternative is that something recently happened behind the scenes to prompt Shanahan to fire Sundquist quickly -- so fast the NFL rumor mill never caught a whiff of the move.

Regardless of when the decision was made and why it was implemented at such an odd point in the NFL calendar, Shanahan's buffer is now gone. If the Broncos don't turn it around, Shanahan should be the next to go.

Defining "turn it around" is tricky. Getting to the playoffs and losing their first game might not be enough to save Shanahan, especially if guys like defensive tackle Marcus Thomas continue to get in trouble off the field. Bowlen has made it clear that he has had enough of the high-risk, no-reward free agents and draft picks who have embarrassed the franchise.

Previously, the thinking was that Shanahan could take chances with Bowlen's money because of the two Lombardi Trophies in the lobby. As the trophies show the dust of the decade that has passed since they were won, Bowlen finally might be considering the hiring of a new head coach. And Shanahan must sense it.

That's why Shanahan sacrificed Sundquist; it was the act of a desperate man caught in suddenly uncertain times. Moving forward, one thing is certain: Shanahan will be the next to go if he can't do better without the guy who helped him build those two Super Bowl-winning teams.

Mike Florio writes and edits ProFootballTalk.com and is a frequent contributor to Sporting News.

NameUsedBefore
01-26-2009, 11:24 PM
The fact Sundquist was fired and not Shanahan is proof that Sundquist was terrible -- that's it. Other than that...


PFT article.

Shazam!
01-26-2009, 11:40 PM
The QBs, DCs, and lastly the GM was Shanahan's long list of yearly scapegoats.

The man's ego was too big to ever accept blame himself, except the day he was fired.

The guy got too comfy not worrying about job security with accomplishments he had over 10 years ago.

lex
01-26-2009, 11:49 PM
Disliking Shanahan doesnt mean you have to like Sundquist. The guy was horrible and an example of how Shanahan just was too tolerant of people who werent the best, like Burny, Slowik, and Sundquist.

Shazam!
01-26-2009, 11:58 PM
'The Mastermind' appointed Slowik Lex. He was the scapegoat for a 7-9 Season. Deal with it.

lex
01-27-2009, 12:13 AM
'The Mastermind' appointed Slowik Lex. He was the scapegoat for a 7-9 Season. Deal with it.


And Shanahan didnt hire other alleged scapegoats?

skycoyote
01-27-2009, 12:31 AM
Tough crowd. I think the essence of the article was that Shannahan was in charge of hiring coaches and player personnel, and that Sundquist was just a figurehead. It also implies that Shanny played his last card by firing Ted. I also thought it was interesting that the writer, Florio predicted that Shanny would be fired if he didn't turn it around. The article was written almost a year ago when none of us thought that Shanny could be fired. Is that what you thought the article implied Shazam?

Lonestar
01-27-2009, 01:23 AM
Tough crowd. I think the essence of the article was that Shannahan was in charge of hiring coaches and player personnel, and that Sundquist was just a figurehead. It also implies that Shanny played his last card by firing Ted. I also thought it was interesting that the writer, Florio predicted that Shanny would be fired if he didn't turn it around. The article was written almost a year ago when none of us thought that Shanny could be fired. Is that what you thought the article implied Shazam?


I have not been a mikey fan for 4-5 years now.. I'm sad it took Pat that long to figure out how his personnel moves over the years cost him millions and produce little results..

Our best chance was in 2005 and when that failed, he blew up the Offensive scheme and started over..

his total disdain for the defensive side of the game SAVE fast linebackers was the ultimate FUBAR..

Shazam!
01-27-2009, 01:27 AM
Absolutely SkyC.

Shanny has been running on fumes for years now. The team has become lost as the veteran leaders vanished. Leadership was lost with Rod, Al, and Lynch, and was a void Shanahan couldn't hope to replace.

Too many fans have become not only accustomed to, but accepting getting cremated by teams Denver should beat (Oak-'08, Det-'07,) losing badly in tough must-win games Denver should win or at least play better (Bills-'08, Tex-'07,) and getting swept every year by the Chargers who win the West every year since 2005, only to evaporate in the Playoffs and a new Super Bowl favorite every year.

I'm glad this was as unacceptable to Pat Bowlen as it was in 1994.

I think too many people have never seen the Broncos coached by another Coach on the Broncos' sideline. Denver survived Elway's retirement, they'll surely survive Shanahan's firing. The guy wasn't doing it anymore. Period.

Shazam!
01-27-2009, 01:32 AM
I have not been a mikey fan for 4-5 years now.. I'm sad it took Pat that long to figure out how his personnel moves over the years cost him millions and produce little results..

Our best chance was in 2005 and when that failed, he blew up the Offensive scheme and started over..

his total disdain for the defensive side of the game SAVE fast linebackers was the ultimate FUBAR..

What have I been saying about Shanahan's scapegoats Jr?? That says it all!

I will not lie, I was never a big fan of Jake and was skeptical when he was brought in in 2003. I wanted a young QB with a rocket arm who was better in the pocket. I was wishing for it since... 1999.

THAT'S how you reward your QB? That's how you treat Pro Bowl Jake? Who had his best season as a Pro? Who helped your team beat this decade's '96-98 Broncos in the Playoffs? Who helped your team reach it's first Championship Game in like 8 years? You Draft a QB to weaken an already fragile confidence? You blow up the best team you had in YEARS??

Shanahan is an egomaniac and lost it. He deserved to get fired. Bowlen made the right move.

McCoach's turn.

Lonestar
01-27-2009, 01:44 AM
What have I been saying about Shanahan's scapegoats Jr?? That says it all!

I will not lie, I was never a big fan of Jake and was skeptical when he was brought in in 2003. I wanted a young QB with a rocket arm who was better in the pocket. I was wishing for it since... 1999.

THAT'S how you reward your QB? That's how you treat Pro Bowl Jake? Who had his best season as a Pro? Who helped your team beat this decade's '96-98 Broncos in the Playoffs? Who helped your team reach it's first Championship Game in like 8 years? You Draft a QB to weaken an already fragile confidence? You blow up the best team you had in YEARS??

Shanahan is an egomaniac and lost it. He deserved to get fired. Bowlen made the right move.

McCoach's turn.


with the exception of not bring in Jake I agree 100%.. Jake at the time was almost our only options and Mikey did not have enough time on his hands to trains a rookie QB .. Jake bought him a couple more years..

I liked Jake for his leadership on the field and mikey thought he could make him into another mikey yes man.. While on the filed and locker room no one better than Jake off the field he could care less about football.. Except that last off season after before the PITT debacle he studied with Gary all season. Reviewing tapes of every game he played and getting critiqued by Gary about them.. then came back and had his best year ever almost setting NO pick record during the year..

wonder if Pat called Jake to let him know he was firing mikey, more than mikey did for Jake.. :laugh:

Then the betrayal well that all worked out for both Jake and Jay and now us the fans.. all that ends well.. it is it he who laughs last..

broncophan
01-27-2009, 03:20 AM
with the exception of not bring in Jake I agree 100%.. Jake at the time was almost our only options and Mikey did not have enough time on his hands to trains a rookie QB .. Jake bought him a couple more years..

I liked Jake for his leadership on the field and mikey thought he could make him into another mikey yes man.. While on the filed and locker room no one better than Jake off the field he could care less about football.. Except that last off season after before the PITT debacle he studied with Gary all season. Reviewing tapes of every game he played and getting critiqued by Gary about them.. then came back and had his best year ever almost setting NO pick record during the year..

wonder if Pat called Jake to let him know he was firing mikey, more than mikey did for Jake.. :laugh:

Then the betrayal well that all worked out for both Jake and Jay and now us the fans.. all that ends well.. it is it he who laughs last..

I think it is a little premature to say that Jay has "worked out well.....for us the fans"

Northman
01-27-2009, 06:05 AM
Sundquist, scapegoat or not was terrible and needed to go anyway. Pointless article.

Dean
01-27-2009, 07:25 AM
Let's see. After Sundquist was fired, didn't Shanahan remain? What did that draft look like?

:questionmark:

There was an article last year from a scout that Sunquist never even talked to the scout about players he scouted. Though Mike had the final say it was Sundquist's job to provide names for Mike to choose from along with recommendations.

I believe Goodman is more capable and deserved the job.

G_Money
01-27-2009, 08:20 AM
It was Shanahan’s fault that Sundquist was here in the first place, but if you believe it’s just coincidence that a team that was terrible at drafting suddenly became awesome at drafting the second that Sundquist’s input was marginalized, and then eliminated, then I have some beachfront property in Arizona to sell you.

Sundquist was not our only problem, but he was definitely a problem.

Just read his defenses of his terrible drafts from his blog. The hideously self-righteous explanations of why he was right to draft all these epic failures like Clarett help explain why we never learned from previous mistakes while he was here.

Ashlee Lelie was a success (yes, that’s what he said) and Clarett was the best RB available at the time because Barber and Jacobs were question marks. Not that we could have drafted a NON-RB at that point if that’s what they felt like…no, had to draft a RB in the 3rd, and Clarett was obviously the best pick. Just dumb luck that it didn’t work out.

I disliked him before he started explaining his drafts but I really hated him afterward.

I can’t lay it all at his feet, but Shanahan was obviously willing to change his draft path once he changed his advisors and all of a sudden we have all-stars crawling out of the woodwork from our draft classes.

Correlation is not always causation, but damn, in this case there IS a decent-sized share of the blame to be passed to Sundquist.

~G

LRtagger
01-27-2009, 10:52 AM
Florio sucks

tomjonesrocks
01-27-2009, 11:20 AM
:deadhorse:

lex
01-27-2009, 11:32 AM
Tough crowd. I think the essence of the article was that Shannahan was in charge of hiring coaches and player personnel, and that Sundquist was just a figurehead. It also implies that Shanny played his last card by firing Ted. I also thought it was interesting that the writer, Florio predicted that Shanny would be fired if he didn't turn it around. The article was written almost a year ago when none of us thought that Shanny could be fired. Is that what you thought the article implied Shazam?

I thought it was more interesting two years ago when he predicted Shanahan would become the head coach at the University of Michigan. This guy says a lot of things.

Lonestar
01-27-2009, 11:44 AM
I think it is a little premature to say that Jay has "worked out well.....for us the fans"


Perhaps your expectations are abit higher than mine..

I think regardless on a few mistakes he has made throwing into double triple coverage going to the pro bowl in his per see second season is enough for me..

Can he be better sure.. but if he does as well as QB can do like this year for the rest of his career here then he has "worked out well"

underrated29
01-27-2009, 11:45 AM
how many offers has sundquist received since he was canned?- 0

How many offers has shanny received since he was canned?-1-2

And shanny has be on the market for only a month and a half.

Sundquist was/is on the market for 2+? years....


Nuff said.

Shazam!
01-27-2009, 12:26 PM
How many offers has shanny received since he was canned?-1-2

And shanny has be on the market for only a month and a half.

Nuff said.

Oh please.

How long was Eric Mangini on the market?

He may be rejuvenated elsewhere but history will say he was mediocre in Denver without John Elway for 10 years. Period.

Nuff said.

underrated29
01-27-2009, 12:30 PM
Oh please.

How long was Eric Mangini on the market?

He may be rejuvenated elsewhere but history will say he was mediocre in Denver without John Elway for 10 years. Period.

Nuff said.



If thats the case then what do they say about sundquist? He was mediocre his whole career?

Lonestar
01-27-2009, 12:30 PM
Oh please.

How long was Eric Mangini on the market?

He may be rejuvenated elsewhere but he was mediocre in Denver without John Elway. Period.

Nuff said.

While I have not put a pencil to it.. I'd bet overall without the HOF group John, TD, ZIM, Sharpe etal he would be pretty average win loss wise..

Lonestar
01-27-2009, 12:36 PM
If thats the case then what do they say about sundquist? He was mediocre his whole career?

Ted was always a gofer period....

IMO had very little impact on the day to day decision made as a normal GM would.. He never went out and signed an guy without Mikeys OK, never drafted one that mikey did not want..

did not negotiate with free agents without mikey telling him to check out this guy or that guy..

mikey surrounded himself with yes men.. Ted was one of them..

Were there bad drafts while he was there sure but who made the final call on who was chosen mikey..

Did mikey get bad data from the scouts? or did he just make the wrong choices..

Something I guess we will never know for sure.. But their is little doubt in my mind who was calling the shots..

Northman
01-27-2009, 12:39 PM
Shanhan probably had the call at the end of the day and obviously his reluctance to get guys in the right positions (Sundquist, Slowik) were key in his ultimate downfall. But i still think he was a great Coach that somewhere along the way lost direction and was given far too much power from Bowlen.

Lonestar
01-27-2009, 12:45 PM
Shanhan probably had the call at the end of the day and obviously his reluctance to get guys in the right positions (Sundquist, Slowik) were key in his ultimate downfall. But i still think he was a great Coach that somewhere along the way lost direction and was given far too much power from Bowlen.


you see this all the time from those that micro manage to the enth detail,,..


can't see the forest from the trees..

I'll bet that Pat does not ever appoint a coach for life again..

topscribe
01-27-2009, 12:47 PM
Shanhan probably had the call at the end of the day and obviously his reluctance to get guys in the right positions (Sundquist, Slowik) were key in his ultimate downfall. But i still think he was a great Coach that somewhere along the way lost direction and was given far too much power from Bowlen.

I believe you came pretty close there. Shanny did the right thing in canning
Sundquist, but made a dreadful mistake in letting Coyers go, IMO. Coyers was
a scapegoat for lack of talent in key positions. With the addition of a couple
viable pass rushers (the Broncos had the safeties back then), Coyers would
have suddenly become a genius.

If Shanny just had to let Coyers go, then he should have resisted giving the
job to friends and done what McDaniels just did: bring in a Nolan or the
equivalent. In the end, Bates and Slowik, to a great degree, cost Shanny his
job . . . or I should say perhaps Shanny blew it by putting them in there.

IMHO.

-----

NightTrainLayne
01-27-2009, 12:47 PM
you see this all the time from those that micro manage to the enth detail,,..


can't see the forest from the trees..

I'll bet that Pat does not ever appoint a coach for life again..

I still disagree with this assessment. Someone who doesn't even send their own e-mail or text-messages is not a micro-manager that micro-manages to the nth detail.

Shazam!
01-27-2009, 12:49 PM
Some of Denver's GOOD acquisitions, like Lynch and the Champ/Portis trade wasn't all Shanahan just so you know.

topscribe
01-27-2009, 12:49 PM
I still disagree with this assessment. Someone who doesn't even send their own e-mail or text-messages is not a micro-manager that micro-manages to the nth detail.

What do email and cell phones have to do with it? :confused:

-----

Lonestar
01-27-2009, 01:09 PM
I still disagree with this assessment. Someone who doesn't even send their own e-mail or text-messages is not a micro-manager that micro-manages to the nth detail.

I used to before email, so I can see it very plainly.. Just because he is old school does not make him less of a controlling boss. that has his boys to not questions decision and calls the shots like he wants them to..

they did not put slowick scheme into place after the bye in the bates regime they put mikeys blitzing more package in or so I got from his press conference he had when they made the change..

Technology challenged does not mean he can't manage every detail on the field, practice, or personnel decision.. Just means he has to have his trained seals to bounce th ball for him.. afteall he was the mastermind..

Lonestar
01-27-2009, 01:12 PM
What do email and cell phones have to do with it? :confused:

-----

hell I just sent my first text message in later DEC when I got my new Blackberry with unlimited texting..

Before then I just called them and 99.9% of the time now I still do.

underrated29
01-27-2009, 01:15 PM
Some of Denver's GOOD acquisitions, like Lynch and the Champ/Portis trade wasn't all Shanahan just so you know.

Right.

But the nash, gardners, and tioviessi were??

It cant be one or the other, its all or none.


Shanny is not the greatest coach to ever live, he is human and makes mistakes too.

Balls to bones though, he is one of the best coaches out there!

i think he just got to much control and didnt want to relinquish it. Would you have done differently? Honestly, i doubt you would, i doubt any of us would. Why would we, why would he?

Lonestar
01-27-2009, 01:21 PM
Right.

But the nash, gardners, and tioviessi were??

It cant be one or the other, its all or none.


Shanny is not the greatest coach to ever live, he is human and makes mistakes too.

Balls to bones though, he is one of the best coaches out there!

i think he just got to much control and didnt want to relinquish it. Would you have done differently? Honestly, i doubt you would, i doubt any of us would. Why would we, why would he?

had he just stuck to Coaching and had a qualified professional GM in here that could handle the business side I think he would be the best.. and for that matter still employed..

the peter principle at work as an OC he reached his peak..

as a HC VP he reached his level of incompetence..

might have been a great HC but all the minutiae drug him down.