Does Josh McDaniels deserve some props for the 2010 draft class

[roomemp]

I was just thinking about this. I hate Mcdaniels just as much as the next guy for what he did to our Broncos. But Just think of it. The first 5 guys selected are all key players to this team that is currently in a heated playoff race.

They are:

Thomas, Tebow, Beadles, Walton, and Decker.

Did McDaniels actually get something right when he was here??

[cmc0605]

I was just thinking about this. I hate Mcdaniels just as much as the next guy for what he did to our Broncos. But Just think of it. The first 5 guys selected are all key players to this team that is currently in a heated playoff race.

They are:

Thomas, Tebow, Beadles, Walton, and Decker.

Did McDaniels actually get something right when he was hear??

Yes he did. It could also be Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, etc, but I look forward to what we have. The o-line is building chemistry as a unit and with another year or two of experience will be one of the better ones in the league (though I wish Clady could be his old self). Decker is for real. Thomas, I really hope is for real. He has more physical upside than most WRs in the game; I just hope he has the will, the external support, and can stay healthy. Tebow proving me and all the other skeptics wrong...I just hope they can open him up passing a bit. He actually hasn't been passing that bad in the last couple games when he has the chance. He'll need to do that against better teams like the Pats who can put up points and have the discipline to contain two runners.

[sneakers]

I am tempted to post NONONONO Cat.....

[MasterShake]

Props? He'll get nothing and like it.

[Northman]

Its just one game for Thomas so lets not get ahead of ourselves there. But the rest you listed have shown some good consistency. But, McDaniels is a bum so im glad he is gone and and glad they got shut out by SF today. That was funny.

[Skacorica]

oKI-tD0L18A

[MasterShake]

Lets put it this way, I'll recognize that he made the picks but I give credit to the players and coaches we have right now for playing well.

[jhildebrand]

I would be more inclined to give mcdaniels some kudos had he gotten something from those picks. I think the REAL KUDOS goes to Fox, Allen, McCoy.

Let's also not forget that McD sent Schefler packing and then traded for the 7th rounder Schefler replaced :mad:

Let's not forget he used a 1st round pick, a damn good one, to draft a smurf corner in the 2nd only to send him walking. :mad:

Let's not forget that he drafted Moreno only to keep him from the dolts.

McDaniels didn't play Tebow. Fox did!

McDaniels can F off :mad: now you got me all worked up!

[HORSEPOWER 56]

On a positive note, McDaniels' "genius" offensive system accounted for ZERO points today as they were steamrolled by the 49ers...

Lloyd had one catch for 34 yards (good thing he already assured us our 5th rounder last week). DT, by comparison, had 4 catches for 100+ yards and 2 TDs.

Oh, and we won our 5th straight and sixth of our last seven... mmm so nice. McDouchebag's tears are delicious!

[Bosco]

I don't see how you couldn't give him props. With the exception of McGahee, every one of the key players on this offense were McDaniels draft picks.

[DenBronx]

oKI-tD0L18A

Sneakers....I thought weeks ago that this was your 2nd account.


Now I know for sure it is.

[DenBronx]

McD will never get props from the likes of me.

He can rot away in STL.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I will say this...many hated his drafting and said he had zero clue what he was doing on draft day. Well...it does take 3 years to have a real clue, but some seem to be doing quite well in year 2. Now had he not been a dweeb, maybe he could have been successful.

I'm still on record that BMarsh, and his childish act, had to go.

[Northman]

I'm still on record that BMarsh, and his childish act, had to go.


Maybe, but then again as childish as McD was its hard to say how Bmarsh would of handled being under a guy like Fox and Elway. despite Miami's own issues Bmarsh continues to produce and is likely to hit 1,000 yds receiving for the 5th year in a row.

[sneakers]

Sneakers....I thought weeks ago that this was your 2nd account.


Now I know for sure it is.

oKI-tD0L18A

[jhildebrand]

I'm still on record that BMarsh, and his childish act, had to go.

At some point you expect young players to act dumb but you DON'T expect the coach to stoop to that level. At least I don't! I want my coach to take the high road.


I don't see how you couldn't give him props. With the exception of McGahee, every one of the key players on this offense were McDaniels draft picks.

Like Clady? :confused:

Kuper?

Larsen has been instrumental at times this year.

Royal?

How is Robert Quinn these days? :confused: What's he up to? Selling insurance or something.

I think this is more a case of Fox getting the most, more than McD could, out of McD guys. It is more a testament to Fox than McD.

Meanwhile that McD offense is lookin awesome! 0 points. One catch for Lloyd. SWEEET! :D

[Bosco]

At some point you expect young players to act dumb but you DON'T expect the coach to stoop to that level. At least I don't! I want my coach to take the high road.



Like Clady? :confused:

Kuper?

Larsen has been instrumental at times this year.

Royal?

How is Robert Quinn these days? :confused: What's he up to? Selling insurance or something.

I think this is more a case of Fox getting the most, more than McD could, out of McD guys. It is more a testament to Fox than McD.

Meanwhile that McD offense is lookin awesome! 0 points. One catch for Lloyd. SWEEET! :D

I'll give you Clady and Kuper. I was thinking more along the lines of skill position players, but since we mentioned Beadles and Walton it's only fair to include those two. Larsen? Certainly not a key player, although he's had his moments. Royal, as much as I love him, has certainly not been a key player, at least not on offense.

I think it's a little silly to say Fox is getting more of those guys than Josh did. They were all rookies getting limited playing time under Josh, and now they're second year players under Fox. Obviously, there will be substantial progression from experience.

Also, I think you meant Richard Quinn. Robert is his brother, and plays in St. Louis. I also don't speak to Richard, but my guess is he is working on rehabbing after suffering that season ending knee injury. That is...generally speaking...what guys in his position do.

[G_Money]

It all depends on what you want to credit, and who gets the credit for their production now. Did Josh get a lot of current starters out of the 5 picks he wound up with in the first 3 rounds? He did.

Since I want to replace Beadles and/or Walton to give us some interior push on these third-and-shorts that we CAN'T convert and provide Tim with better protection in the passing game...

I'm not tooooo inclined for credit in that regard. But that's from a personal preference standpoint - if I draft a 2nd round guard then by God that guard had better be able to do guard-like things.

I don't think DT is gonna be more than a third option either, cuz unless the CBs are drunk (as Minny's were) I don't see him having any separation skills whatsoever. I actually think DT is a better pick with Tebow at QB and a focus on the running game though, since he can run-block and run people over once he has a ball in his hands.

But he's not a deep threat and he runs crappy routes pretty slowly. That's not normally a roadmap to pass-catching success. I hope he can learn a route tree and how to run one during the offseason.

Tim I can't help but love. Decker's a good #2 receiver. DT can be a #3. Beadles should be a backup, and I wouldn't mind too much if Walton were either (and I wanted to draft him before McD ever pulled the trigger on him, so it's not an assessment made just because Josh picked him), but I still feel pretty strongly about Beadles.

In fact, our first 3 guys were overdrafts.

We drafted a slow receiver in the first who can't run routes and wasn't healthy, a QB in the first with off-the-charts intangibles who is a total work-in-progress when it comes to his job of throwing the ball, and a tackle in the 2nd who had to be moved to guard but is too slow-footed to properly pass-block and too weak to move a pile inside.

But even so, that's a pretty decent draft. We're using Josh's first five guys from that draft, all to some form of success, and he's got to get credit for that. Beadles and Walton will play a while in this league even if they get demoted to backups, Decker's legit, DT has talent and room to improve, and Tebow is freakin' Tebow.

I would not have run the draft the way Josh did, even once he learned from the FUBARed 2009 draft. The funniest part for me about Beadles and Walton is that they were worse in Josh's offense. They would not be starting for him now - he couldn't get a coach who could teach them to block in either the run or the pass game and pass-blocking is not a strength even now.

DT can't play in Josh's system either, IMO - he has the wrong skillset. Even the use we're getting out of those guys is not one that Josh himself would have been able to achieve with the players he drafted for himself, and Tebow certainly would have looked BAD running McD's offense, as shown when he ran the version of it that McCoy was concocting.

So IMO the real irony is that Fox is making Josh's players look better. Yet another thing to thank Coach Fox for. I hope he and his coaches can keep getting the most out of these players and coaching them up in ways that McDaniels and his staff could not and never would have.

If they can do that I'm happy to let them share the credit with Josh for being thoughtful enough to draft poorly for his needs, but better for our needs after he was gone.

~G

[Chidoze]

I'd take Cutler & Marshall over Tebow & Thomas any day.

But that's water under the bridge now, so I'm rooting for the guys we have, & they haven't disappointed!

[Bosco]

We drafted a slow receiver in the first

Where did you get this from? Thomas reportedly ran a 4.38 before hurting his foot and every scouting report mentions his speed and ability as a deep threat. Are you sure you didn't mix him up with Decker, who was like a 4.5-4.6 guy?

Rest of the post was a good read though.

[Davii]

No. McD gets credit for nothing. Even a blind squirrel finds the nut every now and then.

[karnage]

I went through the 2010 draft & IMO Denver easily ended up with the top QB so far....Bradford,Tebow,Clausen,McCoy,Kafka,Pike,Web b,Skelton

[TXBRONC]

I was just thinking about this. I hate Mcdaniels just as much as the next guy for what he did to our Broncos. But Just think of it. The first 5 guys selected are all key players to this team that is currently in a heated playoff race.

They are:

Thomas, Tebow, Beadles, Walton, and Decker.

Did McDaniels actually get something right when he was here??

I can acknowledge he drafted them but give him props? No because he's not the one whose developing these players it's someone else.

[TXBRONC]

I went through the 2010 draft & IMO Denver easily ended up with the top QB so far....Bradford,Tebow,Clausen,McCoy,Kafka,Pike,Web b,Skelton

No we didn't. I like Tebow but Bradford is still a better quarterback.

[karnage]

No we didn't. I like Tebow but Bradford is still a better quarterback.

like I said my opinion, but what is Bradford showing exactly that makes him better?

[TXBRONC]

I don't see how you couldn't give him props. With the exception of McGahee, every one of the key players on this offense were McDaniels draft picks.

If you truly believe that you haven't been paying attention.

[TXBRONC]

No. McD gets credit for nothing. Even a blind squirrel finds the nut every now and then.

Drafting them is one thing, but developing them is an entirely different matter. Little joshy boy gets no credit for how Tebow, D Thomas, and Thomas develop.

[Northman]

Drafting them is one thing, but developing them is an entirely different matter. Little joshy boy gets no credit for how Tebow, D Thomas, and Thomas develop.

You do have a point. Does anyone really believe that Josh would of done what Fox and company have by installing the option scheme to fix Tebow? I ratther believe Josh would of simply kept trying to air it out all day long and in the long run would of hurt Tebow more than helped him. Josh was terrible at adjustments.

[lgenf]

There's a short answer

Yes he does, but he's also responsible for two things

Depleting this teams talent to a very low point, and not getting anything out of the talent he did have on the team


He's also responsible for Colquitt from what I heard last week, but I am not sure about that

[Chef Zambini]

JMCD deserves a pitch-fork and a flaming torch up his wazoo for what he did to our broncos!
the guy squandered 5 FRDPs in 2 seasons !
do you really need the list of talent that he pissed away he destroyed our broncos, thats the ONLY thing I give him credit for doing !

[FlyByU]

One thing the O-line can do that is run block we all know that, and with TT as QB they look good at times with pass blocking.

Decker has me a little upset with his performance the last several games I kept saying what a disgrace to that Jersey #87 which will always be Eddie MaC's Jersey to me and the person that fills it needs to be damn good. Decker has Eddie MaC abilities but will they form and solidify? DT is looking awesome and will get better if he doesn't get a bruise or a paper cut.

[rationalfan]

Decker has me a little upset with his performance the last several games I kept saying what a disgrace to that Jersey #87 which will always be Eddie MaC's Jersey to me and the person that fills it needs to be damn good. Decker has Eddie MaC abilities but will they form and solidify?

man, sometimes you gotta let go of the past. and if you can't, you might want to be more consistent; like blaming bruton for not doing justice to number 30 while you're at it.

[rationalfan]

There's a short answer

Yes he does, but he's also responsible for two things

Depleting this teams talent to a very low point, and not getting anything out of the talent he did have on the team


uh, you gotta give shanny most of the credit for depleting the roster's talent - and for mortgaging the salary cap, which led to the lack of talent depth. i'm not talking cutler, marshall and scheffler; but the overall lack of depth at almost every position on the team.

mcd had serious issues. we all know this. but we can't forget shanahan had his, very serious, issues.

[FlyByU]

man, sometimes you gotta let go of the past. and if you can't, you might want to be more consistent; like blaming bruton for not doing justice to number 30 while you're at it.

Never let go or forget the past or you will repeat it.

[G_Money]

Where did you get this from? Thomas reportedly ran a 4.38 before hurting his foot and every scouting report mentions his speed and ability as a deep threat. Are you sure you didn't mix him up with Decker, who was like a 4.5-4.6 guy?

Rest of the post was a good read though.

He did run a 4.38 in shorts. I haven't seen DT run away from ANYBODY in pads. :) I guess at GT I saw it a few times, but it seemed to be more out of surprise that a pass was being thrown - that was a run heavy O. He's slow off the line, letting corners get comfortable running with him. Comes from being a long strider, I guess, but I haven't noticed much intentional separation from corners (which is one reason he has such huge ypc numbers - he had to run fly/go routes to get up to speed and get a step).

Or maybe that's just from his foot and Achilles injuries, and he'll get some speed and explosiveness back as he goes. I don't need him to be a blazer to be good. But drafting WRs with foot injuries in the first round isn't a mark of genius. Hopefully DT can overcome those issues and his rawness as a WR to become the monster we all hope he will.

I was never as high on DT in college as some, because IMO a lot of his big gains came because of all the concern the D had to pay to the running game. Of course, we're running an offense much like that now, so maybe that will help his production too. It's not like B-Lloyd was elite at separation, he just caught everything thrown his way.

I'd take that for sure.

~G

[TXBRONC]

uh, you gotta give shanny most of the credit for depleting the roster's talent - and for mortgaging the salary cap, which led to the lack of talent depth. i'm not talking cutler, marshall and scheffler; but the overall lack of depth at almost every position on the team.

mcd had serious issues. we all know this. but we can't forget shanahan had his, very serious, issues.

True Shanahan certainly had his issues but the salary cap was one of them. It's a myth that the salary cap lead to a lack of talent. What lead to a lack of talent is poor personnel choices. If a team wants a particular player they they will find away to room for that player.

That said, McDaniels turned over something like 85% of the roster left by Shanahan so in no way shape or form can that be on Shanahan. The shit pile that EFX is cleaning up is McDaniels and his alone.

[Softskull]

The way I see it, if McDaniels was still here, he'd be trying to force these guys into a power blocking/pass first scheme. None of these picks (except maybe Decker) really fit that scheme well. We're now doing zone blocking again which has improved production and are a run first (second and third) team. These young McD draftees would have been doomed under his control. Even in StL with Steven Jackson, they're pass/run ratio is 426/293. I'll give John Fox the credit for making the best of the players he inherited.

[Dapper Dan]

I was just thinking about this. I hate Mcdaniels just as much as the next guy for what he did to our Broncos. But Just think of it. The first 5 guys selected are all key players to this team that is currently in a heated playoff race.

They are:

Thomas, Tebow, Beadles, Walton, and Decker.

Did McDaniels actually get something right when he was here??

Yes. He does deserve more credit. Fans try to paint him out to be totally incompetent. This wasn't the case. Giving a guy 1.8 seasons isn't giving him a chance at all. But that's my opinion. Opinions are like a-holes. They're both all over message boards.

[NightTerror218]

I was just thinking about this. I hate Mcdaniels just as much as the next guy for what he did to our Broncos. But Just think of it. The first 5 guys selected are all key players to this team that is currently in a heated playoff race.

They are:

Thomas, Tebow, Beadles, Walton, and Decker.

Did McDaniels actually get something right when he was here??

They are all offense, he had no idea what he was doing in defense drafting.

[Bosco]

He did run a 4.38 in shorts. I haven't seen DT run away from ANYBODY in pads. :) I guess at GT I saw it a few times, but it seemed to be more out of surprise that a pass was being thrown - that was a run heavy O. He's slow off the line, letting corners get comfortable running with him. Comes from being a long strider, I guess, but I haven't noticed much intentional separation from corners (which is one reason he has such huge ypc numbers - he had to run fly/go routes to get up to speed and get a step).

Or maybe that's just from his foot and Achilles injuries, and he'll get some speed and explosiveness back as he goes. I don't need him to be a blazer to be good. But drafting WRs with foot injuries in the first round isn't a mark of genius. Hopefully DT can overcome those issues and his rawness as a WR to become the monster we all hope he will.

I was never as high on DT in college as some, because IMO a lot of his big gains came because of all the concern the D had to pay to the running game. Of course, we're running an offense much like that now, so maybe that will help his production too. It's not like B-Lloyd was elite at separation, he just caught everything thrown his way.

I'd take that for sure.

~G

His injuries have definitely made him look a little slower than he really is, but they take time to come back from. You can already see him (and Dumervil for that matter) regaining some of their pre-2010 athleticism. Of course DT's speed was a big reason we drafted him, as McDaniel's offense was very reliant on that X receiver being able to get down the field quickly and stretch the coverage.


The way I see it, if McDaniels was still here, he'd be trying to force these guys into a power blocking/pass first scheme. None of these picks (except maybe Decker) really fit that scheme well. We're now doing zone blocking again which has improved production and are a run first (second and third) team. These young McD draftees would have been doomed under his control. Even in StL with Steven Jackson, they're pass/run ratio is 426/293. I'll give John Fox the credit for making the best of the players he inherited.

I don't agree with this at all. People can say what they want about McDaniels, but the guy knows offense and he knows what pieces he needs to run his offense much in the way Shanahan and Kubiak did. All of these guys he drafted were perfect fits for what he wanted, but at the same time they're talented enough to play in different schemes as well.

[TXBRONC]

His injuries have definitely made him look a little slower than he really is, but they take time to come back from. You can already see him (and Dumervil for that matter) regaining some of their pre-2010 athleticism. Of course DT's speed was a big reason we drafted him, as McDaniel's offense was very reliant on that X receiver being able to get down the field quickly and stretch the coverage.



I don't agree with this at all. People can say what they want about McDaniels, but the guy knows offense and he knows what pieces he needs to run his offense much in the way Shanahan and Kubiak did. All of these guys he drafted were perfect fits for what he wanted, but at the same time they're talented enough to play in different schemes as well.

I agree with you about D. Thomas. He's not even a year removed rupturing his achilles tendon so I give credit that he's even out on the field. If he can recover fully I think he has the talent to be very good.

McDaniels knows x's and o's well enough to march a between the 20s and come up with field goal attempts but other than that his reputation is suspect at best. This is also the same coach who after spending eight years with a quarterback who will go to the Hall of Fame when his career is over said "I don't know what a franchise quarterback looks like." Maybe he knows talent and think that's if at best he sure as hell didn't have a clue how to utilize it in his own scheme.

[G_Money]

I don't agree with this at all. People can say what they want about McDaniels, but the guy knows offense and he knows what pieces he needs to run his offense much in the way Shanahan and Kubiak did. All of these guys he drafted were perfect fits for what he wanted, but at the same time they're talented enough to play in different schemes as well.

I don't know if DT will ever recover 100% of whatever explosiveness he had. Achilles injuries are hard to overcome for guys who rely on speed. If he can be a slower possession receiver, good for him.

As for "those guys are perfect fits" I'll give you the fact that he wanted DT to be his bigger, stronger Ashley Lelie type. I would have thought if he wanted a burner that he'd get a guy who was used to running routes and catching balls instead of blocking in the run game, but Josh was an odd duck.

But Beadles and Walton were (and are) more ZBS than man blocking types. It's what Beadles ran in college. Why take a ZBS tackle, try to make him a man-block tackle, then when that fails miserable move him inside to guard and let him try his skills there?

Walton has short arms and is slightly undersized, allowing DTs to get under his pads if he's just trying to push them. He's dirty and a fighter, but there's only so much a guy can do. Of course, he TOO came from a primarily ZBS system at Baylor.

That was my great confusion with Josh McDaniels - why would he draft people for a scheme he's not using (or who were unfamiliar with the techniques and skills needed to excel in his offense), especially with first and second day picks? :confused:

Josh, who wanted a man-blocking, run-enough-to-keep-em-honest, read-and-react passing system with variable route choices, timing, and downfield passing, drafted:

1) a QB who can't throw in that system, certainly not out of college
2) a raw WR who had never played in a system like that and was injured
3) an OT who was a zone blocker and was overmatched in man-to-man at guard
4) a C who was a zone blocker and was overmatched in man-to-man at center
5) a WR who actually could play in a scheme like that but also had a serious foot injury

I'm stoked that make of them seem to be working out post-McDaniels, but I didn't see it working the same way in Josh's offense, I guess.

Josh was a confounding coach. To me, anyway.

~G

[Softskull]

I don't agree with this at all. People can say what they want about McDaniels, but the guy knows offense and he knows what pieces he needs to run his offense much in the way Shanahan and Kubiak did. All of these guys he drafted were perfect fits for what he wanted, but at the same time they're talented enough to play in different schemes as well.

Here's McDaniels history of points per game as a OCoor/HC and the year previous:

2006 24.1/23.7
2007 36.8/24.1
2008 25.6/36.8
2009 20.4/23.1
2010 21.5/20.4
2011 11.7/18.1

Except for 2007, his presence has had no noticable positive effect. You can sing his praises all you like, but the facts say otherwise.

I couldn't imagine Tebow in an offense that had to throw 30+ times per game. Beadles and Walton continue to flail in power schemes, but both have become good in pulling. Decker would fit into any scheme and DT in college was perfect for a run often team. All these guys fit much better in what Coach Fox is trying to pull off.

[Bosco]

McDaniels knows x's and o's well enough to march a between the 20s and come up with field goal attempts but other than that his reputation is suspect at best. This is also the same coach who after spending eight years with a quarterback who will go to the Hall of Fame when his career is over said "I don't know what a franchise quarterback looks like." Maybe he knows talent and think that's if at best he sure as hell didn't have a clue how to utilize it in his own scheme.

Well first, I don't recall the "I don't know" comment, but I'm guessing it was probably made in jest, not to be taken seriously. Beyond that, I'd be hesitant to take jabs at a OC for his redzone performance when he coordinated the highest scoring offense in NFL history and had a top 10 scoring offense the first four years of his career. That's probably a much better measure of his ability than the less than two years he spent here in Denver and his short time in St. Louis.



I don't know if DT will ever recover 100% of whatever explosiveness he had. Achilles injuries are hard to overcome for guys who rely on speed. He'll be fine. They take time, but advancements in the sports injury field have it to where it's pretty much a 100% recovery these days.


As for "those guys are perfect fits" I'll give you the fact that he wanted DT to be his bigger, stronger Ashley Lelie type. I would have thought if he wanted a burner that he'd get a guy who was used to running routes and catching balls instead of blocking in the run game, but Josh was an odd duck. On that front, I think he had a real good idea that Lloyd was going to be able to hold down the X receiver spot quite well. I'm sure the plan all along was to bring Thomas along slowly and then let him take over in 2011.


But Beadles and Walton were (and are) more ZBS than man blocking types. It's what Beadles ran in college. Why take a ZBS tackle, try to make him a man-block tackle, then when that fails miserable move him inside to guard and let him try his skills there?

Walton has short arms and is slightly undersized, allowing DTs to get under his pads if he's just trying to push them. He's dirty and a fighter, but there's only so much a guy can do. Of course, he TOO came from a primarily ZBS system at Baylor.

That was my great confusion with Josh McDaniels - why would he draft people for a scheme he's not using (or who were unfamiliar with the techniques and skills needed to excel in his offense), especially with first and second day picks? :confused:

Josh, who wanted a man-blocking, run-enough-to-keep-em-honest, read-and-react passing system with variable route choices, timing, and downfield passing, drafted:

1) a QB who can't throw in that system, certainly not out of college
2) a raw WR who had never played in a system like that and was injured
3) an OT who was a zone blocker and was overmatched in man-to-man at guard
4) a C who was a zone blocker and was overmatched in man-to-man at center
5) a WR who actually could play in a scheme like that but also had a serious foot injury

I'm stoked that make of them seem to be working out post-McDaniels, but I didn't see it working the same way in Josh's offense, I guess.

Josh was a confounding coach. To me, anyway.

~GWell first off, I think too much is made of the difference between ZBS and man blocking schemes. It was different in the old Denver system, where you wanted light, sub 300lb linemen, but the evolution of the game has made that system obsolete. Even toward the end of Shanahan's tenure, we saw a noticeable shift to more size on the OL, and Maguza has always had big maulers in his zone blocking schemes. Also, just about every team in the league runs both blocking schemes at some point, including the Patriots under the tenures of both Weis and McDaniels, and even now under O'Brien. There has to be a significant amount of versatility there, and Walton and Beadles certainly have that ability.

I also think a bit too much is made of both of their struggles in 2010. Both of them were rookies pressed into battle in an extremely complicated blocking system. If you ever go over to the OrangeMane, you'll see Chris Kuper's dad posting from time to time. He is a former football coach himself and defended both players, pointing out that Kuper actually had to take over the protection calls because neither of them were ready. This is one of the areas where McDaniels deserves legitimate criticism. He should have had some veteran stop gaps there to prevent Beadles and Walton from being pressed into duty too soon, even if that meant retaining Wiegmann for a year. He opted instead to let them get their trial by fire and the team suffered for it, even though both of them now are growing into legitimate starters. Now when it came to Thomas, Decker, and Tebow, all three of them had plenty of veteran depth in front of them.


Here's McDaniels history of points per game as a OCoor/HC and the year previous:

2006 24.1/23.7
2007 36.8/24.1
2008 25.6/36.8
2009 20.4/23.1
2010 21.5/20.4
2011 11.7/18.1

Except for 2007, his presence has had no noticable positive effect. You can sing his praises all you like, but the facts say otherwise.

I couldn't imagine Tebow in an offense that had to throw 30+ times per game. Beadles and Walton continue to flail in power schemes, but both have become good in pulling. Decker would fit into any scheme and DT in college was perfect for a run often team. All these guys fit much better in what Coach Fox is trying to pull off.

Few points here...

1) You forgot to include the Patriots 2005 season.

2) This is pretty shaky (at best) statistical analysis as it ignores that context of the situation. Take for instance the fact that in every single stop, Josh has taken over for someone who was talented with offense themselves. Both Weis and Shurmur parlayed that talent into head coaching gigs, and for all his trouble in Denver, Shanahan was still a legitimate offensive guru. That alone skews any perceived impact McDaniels could have had.

3) I would have liked to have seen you list the points per game ranking of his respective offenses, or failing that, a comparison to the league average. For instance, on top of the four straight years of top 10 scoring offenses, you might have noticed that interestingly enough, the 2006 team was ranked higher in PPG than the 2008 team, despite actually having fewer points per game.

4) You probably should have acknowledge that McDaniels' offenses have always got better from year to year, with one notable exception...that being the 2008 season when Brady got hurt and the previous offense was setting NFL records in scoring.

5) We're getting pretty formal at this point, but if you want to run a statistical analysis using a rather peculiar method, you'd need to use more than one subject. For instance, you could have picked Bill O'Brien, McDaniels' replacement. I'm sure that given a similar method, O'Brien's own contributions could have been minimized despite the fact that he has proven to be a very capable OC himself.

[NameUsedBefore]

McDaniels' offense got shut out today.

HE'S SUCH AN OFFENSIVE GENIUS OHMAHGAWD. You guys.

Why we let him go?

[TimHippo]

I was just thinking about this. I hate Mcdaniels just as much as the next guy for what he did to our Broncos. But Just think of it. The first 5 guys selected are all key players to this team that is currently in a heated playoff race.

They are:

Thomas, Tebow, Beadles, Walton, and Decker.

Did McDaniels actually get something right when he was here??

McDummy doesn't deserve any credit.

You are supposed to get impact (best case scenario) to contributing players (worst case scenario) in round 1 to 3. Impact also means pro bowl caliber. Decker and Thomas are not pro bowl caliber.

Tebow was a reach in the first round, but McDummy needed to draft Tebow because he had to use Tebow's charisma as a human shield vs McDummy's awkwardness and unlikeablness.

Tebow + McGhaee, and Peyton Hillis in the backfield (just think how unstoppable that would be) with Brandon Marshall, Decker, Eddie Royal (3rd WRs) Thomas (4th WRs) and value from the Cutler trade would be better than the current lineup. That's the standard you have to measure McDummy against.

[wayninja]

Yeah, he deserves credit. Here's a quarter. Now go get your ******* shine box.

[Northman]

http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/stltoday.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/1/64/164178d0-f276-11e0-a487-001a4bcf6878/4e9199f57206d.image.jpg

[TimHippo]

http://www.joshmcdanielssucks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/McD_2.jpg

http://www.joshmcdanielssucks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/kidcoach_12.png


http://www.detocquevillesdaughter.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/SamEagle.jpg

[CrazyHorse]

Sure he gets some credit, but he also gets all the blame for the terrible personnel decisions too.

[Joel]

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes, and I think that's what McDaniels draft picks represent (even if we accept the premise every single player drafted under his regime was his personal choice.)

I don't think Beadles or Walton any better than adequate; obviously not having huge holes in the interior of our offensive line is critical to success, but I'm not sure any other NFL guards would be any better than either of them. I'd rather have Wiegmann and Hamilton than either of them.

Demaryius Thomas has had one good game in three years, on a team that seems to consider it obligatory to trade any WR who performs well; that does not vindicate picking him in the first round or even on the first day.

Tebow and Decker are legit big contributors, but once again, anyone can get lucky, and there was enough buzz around Tebow that picking him doesn't make McDaniels clairvoyant.

I might give him some credit for helping develop Tebow into a pro passer (though by the end of McDaniels tenrue Tebow only looked good enough for third on the depth chart) but that's about it.

[TXBRONC]

[QUOTE=Bosco;1467344]Well first, I don't recall the "I don't know" comment, but I'm guessing it was probably made in jest, not to be taken seriously. Beyond that, I'd be hesitant to take jabs at a OC for his redzone performance when he coordinated the highest scoring offense in NFL history and had a top 10 scoring offense the first four years of his career. That's probably a much better measure of his ability than the less than two years he spent here in Denver and his short time in St. Louis. [QUOTE]

Your guess is mistaken McDaniels didn't say it in jest. I really don't care what he did in New England because that's not what happened in Denver so the criticism is valid. Also, using one year good year record setting or not is a horrible meassure of his ability.

[Midnight Blue]

Josh McDaniels deserves a swift kick in the butt with pointed-toed boots for what he did to the Denver Broncos. As for the Lambs... they deserve what he's done there 'cause they had the luxury of having already seen him decimate one team before they hired "his ineptitude".

[TXBRONC]

Josh McDaniels deserves a swift kick in the butt with pointed-toed boots for what he did to the Denver Broncos. As for the Lambs... they deserve what he's done there 'cause they had the luxury of having already seen him decimate one team before they hired "his ineptitude".

I don't know maybe he would enjoy to being kicked in the butt by a red headed bombshell. ;)

[claymore]

http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/stltoday.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/1/64/164178d0-f276-11e0-a487-001a4bcf6878/4e9199f57206d.image.jpg

Most over rated coach in the history of life itself. I wouldnt want him teaching my sons flag football team.

Eff you JMCD.

[Dreadnought]

Most over rated coach in the history of life itself. I wouldnt want him teaching my sons flag football team.

Eff you JMCD.

I've watched 4 decades of NFL football, and I think he is in fact the worst. Even measured against the likes of Frank Kush, Les Steckel, Bruce Coslett, Ray Handley, Steve Spurrier...The worst. Just the number of losses isn't an accurate measure; its that he took a competitive if flawed team and turned them into disinterested overmatched losers in only a season +. This was accomplished by moronic personnel decisions, imposing a flaccid offensive scheme, leadership skills straight out of the North Korean handbook, disloyalty to his subordinates, dishonesty, blame shifting, importing Patriot chair sniffers to replace existing Broncos for reasons known only to himself and God, and being only a fraction as clever as he thought he was. Did I miss anything?

Just unbelievable. They might as well retire the trophy.

On a positive note, it does appear that we drafted some guys in 2010 that a real grown up coaching staff can work with. For his prize I would like to award Josh McDaniels a romantic evening with 7 sweaty and lustful Albanian goatherds.

[claymore]

I've watched 4 decades of NFL football, and I think he is in fact the worst. Even measured against the likes of Frank Kush, Les Steckel, Bruce Coslett, Ray Handley, Steve Spurrier...The worst. Just the number of losses isn't an accurate measure; its that he took a competitive if flawed team and turned them into disinterested overmatched losers in only a season +. This was accomplished by moronic personnel decisions, imposing a flaccid offensive scheme, leadership skills straight out of the North Korean handbook, disloyalty to his subordinates, dishonesty, blame shifting, importing Patriot chair sniffers to replace existing Broncos for reasons known only to himself and God, and being only a fraction as clever as he thought he was. Did I miss anything?

Just unbelievable. They might as well retire the trophy.

On a positive note, it does appear that we drafted some guys in 2010 that a real grown up coaching staff can work with. For his prize I would like to award Josh McDaniels a romantic evening with 7 sweaty and lustful Albanian goatherds.

Hell yeah. On top of it all, he isnt a very good person. Hes a dik.

[Northman]

Josh McDaniels deserves a swift kick in the butt with pointed-toed boots for what he did to the Denver Broncos. As for the Lambs... they deserve what he's done there 'cause they had the luxury of having already seen him decimate one team before they hired "his ineptitude".

I endorse this post. :D

[Northman]

Steve Spurrier...The worst.

WOOOOOOOOOW, even i would have to rethink that one but damn that was low. :lol:

[BroncoJoe]

I'm over it. Moving on...

[BroncoNut]

Hell yeah. On top of it all, he isnt a very good person. Hes a dik.

He very well may be.

[Dreadnought]

I'm over it. Moving on...

Joe, don't try to dissuade me from my hate and loathing for the little turd. I figure I only get to watch "X" number of Denver Broncos football seasons in whatever span of years I am allotted. Josh McDaniels ruined two of those, and I resent it much.

On the flip side, I had assumed that this season would be a washout too, but thanks to EFX and Mssrs Tebow, Miller, Decker, McGahee, et al. it is becoming hugely entertaining - whatever the final result.

[TXBRONC]

Joe, don't try to dissuade me from my hate and loathing for the little turd. I figure I only get to watch "X" number of Denver Broncos football seasons in whatever span of years I am allotted. Josh McDaniels ruined two of those, and I resent it much.

On the flip side, I had assumed that this season would be a washout too, but thanks to EFX and Mssrs Tebow, Miller, Decker, McGahee, et al. it is becoming hugely entertaining - whatever the final result.

In my best Jrwiz impersonation: "The hate is strong with this one."

[Skacorica]

Sneakers....I thought weeks ago that this was your 2nd account.


Now I know for sure it is.

Yes, I am sneakers second account that likes to post 100% contrary opinions to sneakers'.

Also, not my fault sneakers' has a good sense of humor. :coffee:

[Bosco]

Your guess is mistaken McDaniels didn't say it in jest.

Do you have a link to this quote? I'd be interested in seeing it and reading the context.


I really don't care what he did in New England because that's not what happened in Denver so the criticism is valid. Depends on what you're talking about. If you're trying to grade him as a coach, you can't just parse out the majority of his career because it didn't happen with the team we root for.


Also, using one year good year record setting or not is a horrible meassure of his ability. I agree, which is why I always point to his entire body of work. He had very good to elite offenses all four years in New England, and average offenses in two years in Denver. It would be silly to simply base his grade off 2007 alone.


Josh McDaniels deserves a swift kick in the butt with pointed-toed boots for what he did to the Denver Broncos. As for the Lambs... they deserve what he's done there 'cause they had the luxury of having already seen him decimate one team before they hired "his ineptitude".

Just what exactly did Josh McDaniels do to the Denver Broncos? He took over sub par team with no defense that couldn't make the playoffs and left them a sub par team with no defense that couldn't make the playoffs. When the rubber meets the road, this team wasn't all that worse off then what he started with.

And what has he done to St. Louis? I'm pretty sure that McDaniels isn't responsible for the injuries to Bradford, Jackson, Amendola, Alexander and the others. The one real bright spot on their offense...Brandon Lloyd...surely ended up there on the recommendation of McDaniels.

[TXBRONC]

Do you have a link to this quote? I'd be interested in seeing it and reading the context.

Depends on what you're talking about. If you're trying to grade him as a coach, you can't just parse out the majority of his career because it didn't happen with the team we root for.

I agree, which is why I always point to his entire body of work. He had very good to elite offenses all four years in New England, and average offenses in two years in Denver. It would be silly to simply base his grade off 2007 alone.



Just what exactly did Josh McDaniels do to the Denver Broncos? He took over sub par team with no defense that couldn't make the playoffs and left them a sub par team with no defense that couldn't make the playoffs. When the rubber meets the road, this team wasn't all that worse off then what he started with.

And what has he done to St. Louis? I'm pretty sure that McDaniels isn't responsible for the injuries to Bradford, Jackson, Amendola, Alexander and the others. The one real bright spot on their offense...Brandon Lloyd...surely ended up there on the recommendation of McDaniels.

No I don't have a link anymore. Yes you can separate what he did as head coach as opposed to what he did as offensive coordinator. If you don't want to that's fine but I will because that's what topic. Actually from your ad nauseum use of what the Patriots did in 07 tells me you really have no desire to talk about the rest of the body of his work as you put it.

Again you're entitled to your opining what you want but facts are:

1.) He was to improve things and didn't. In his own words "We're going play smart, tough, physical football." That didn't happen.

2.) Whether you can admit it matters not me but the idiot took a young nucleus on offense and traded it away for shit.

3.) He was liar and cheat. He lied about his involvement to in the original spygate to the public and more importantly to his boss. Not only did the dumb ass lie about his involvement he went and repeated the same mistake in Denver. That ended costing the franchise a $50,000 fine and a crap load of embarrassment. And you can't understand why he is criticized? :confused:

[Ravage!!!]

Most over rated coach in the history of life itself. I wouldnt want him teaching my sons flag football team.

Eff you JMCD.

He's not overrated... just ask him! :lol:

[Midnight Blue]

Do you have a link to this quote? I'd be interested in seeing it and reading the context.

Depends on what you're talking about. If you're trying to grade him as a coach, you can't just parse out the majority of his career because it didn't happen with the team we root for.

I agree, which is why I always point to his entire body of work. He had very good to elite offenses all four years in New England, and average offenses in two years in Denver. It would be silly to simply base his grade off 2007 alone.



Just what exactly did Josh McDaniels do to the Denver Broncos? He took over sub par team with no defense that couldn't make the playoffs and left them a sub par team with no defense that couldn't make the playoffs. When the rubber meets the road, this team wasn't all that worse off then what he started with.

And what has he done to St. Louis? I'm pretty sure that McDaniels isn't responsible for the injuries to Bradford, Jackson, Amendola, Alexander and the others. The one real bright spot on their offense...Brandon Lloyd...surely ended up there on the recommendation of McDaniels.

What did he do? ???

Everyone and their dog knew the defense needed work... so his first priority was to waste assets instead on a long snapper (not an area of need).
Then he proceeded to completely dismantle the offense, getting rid of every player who had value... then wasted the picks; trading a 2010 first round pick to move up in the second round of the 2009 draft... for an undersized CB he traded away 18 months later. Blunder after expensive blunder.... total incompetence on display that made our team the laughingstock of the league. And to top it all off, he was caught cheating... again (and we still lost that game to a horrible 9'ers team).

And I beg to differ with you... when a HC takes the team to its worst record ever in the history of the franchise, then that team is significantly worse off than a mediocre 8-8 or 7-9 team.

Where are my pointed-toe boots? :D

[TXBRONC]

What did he do? ???

Everyone and their dog knew the defense needed work... so his first priority was to waste assets instead on a long snapper (not an area of need).
Then he proceeded to completely dismantle the offense, getting rid of every player who had value... then wasted the picks; trading a 2010 first round pick to move up in the second round of the 2009 draft... for an undersized CB he traded away 18 months later. Blunder after expensive blunder.... total incompetence on display that made our team the laughingstock of the league. And to top it all off, he was caught cheating... again (and we still lost that game to a horrible 9'ers team).

And I beg to differ with you... when a HC takes the team to its worst record ever in the history of the franchise, then that team is significantly worse off than a mediocre 8-8 or 7-9 team.

Where are my pointed-toe boots? :D


Yep that sums it up quite well.

You'll have to call Nancy Sinatra for your boots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbyAZQ45uww

[Midnight Blue]

Yep that sums it up quite well.

You'll have to call Nancy Sinatra for your boots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbyAZQ45uww

LOL And I forgot the part about McDaniels' ego not allowing him to co-exist with Nolan... who was actually doing his job right. No, instead he had to micromanage and then fire the only guy who was getting it done. And the result was a total defensive collapse in the second half of the '09 season.

[Joel]

I could agree with everything but this:

Just what exactly did Josh McDaniels do to the Denver Broncos? He took over sub par team with no defense that couldn't make the playoffs and left them a sub par team with no defense that couldn't make the playoffs. When the rubber meets the road, this team wasn't all that worse off then what he started with.
No, a thousand times no. He took over a .500 team with no D but a great offense that had been barely missing the playoffs for several years, and turned them into a team with no D OR offense that CHEATED its way to the Leagues second worst record. Just think, if McDaniels hadn't cheated his way to #31 we might have Tebow AND Cam Newton (though I think Tebow and Miller the better value, at least at present.)

While we're discussing McDaniels drafting and personnel decisions: He dumped two very good guards for a pair of scrubs; McGahee and Tebow have given us the #1 rushing offense DESPITE, not because, of that.

[Bosco]

No I don't have a link anymore.

Can you try to find it? I really would like to read it.

Yes you can separate what he did as head coach as opposed to what he did as offensive coordinator. If you don't want to that's fine but I will because that's what topic. Actually from your ad nauseum use of what the Patriots did in 07 tells me you really have no desire to talk about the rest of the body of his work as you put it.[/QUOTE]

Again, I've repeatedly pointed to his entire body of work, not just his 2007 season. It get mentioned alot because that was the pinnacle of NFL offenses, but he's had other impressive offenses.


Again you're entitled to your opining what you want but facts are:

1.) He was to improve things and didn't. In his own words "We're going play smart, tough, physical football." That didn't happen. I'd say this was mixed results. We certainly achieved this through the early part of 2009 and even the very early part of 2010. Things fell apart quickly though. Some, but not all of this, can be laid on his doorstep.


2.) Whether you can admit it matters not me but the idiot took a young nucleus on offense and traded it away for shit. Sure, but he traded those guys because they were selfish, me first players who did not fit in with the type of culture he was looking to build. He tried to make it work with everyone of them and when they wouldn't buy into the program, he moved them. Any head coach in that situation would have done what he did and it's unrealistic to expect anyone to put up with that kind of insubordination.


3.) He was liar and cheat. He lied about his involvement to in the original spygate to the public and more importantly to his boss. Not only did the dumb ass lie about his involvement he went and repeated the same mistake in Denver. That ended costing the franchise a $50,000 fine and a crap load of embarrassment. And you can't understand why he is criticized? :confused:

He neither lied nor cheated. The first spygate scandal came down on Belichick, Scarnechia (sp?) and Kraft. McDaniels was never implicated in or punished during that episode. I don't get where you claim that he lied to boss about that, as Belichick was the one aware of everything going on. He also did not lie or cheat with the San Fransisco fiasco. If you remember correctly, the NFL was very clear in stating that they were certain McDaniels had not viewed the tapes. McDaniels punishment was for failing to report the infraction of one of his subordinates to the league. While that was a breach of ethics and he deserved the fine he received, it involved neither lying nor cheating.


What did he do? ???

Everyone and their dog knew the defense needed work... so his first priority was to waste assets instead on a long snapper (not an area of need).
Then he proceeded to completely dismantle the offense, getting rid of every player who had value... then wasted the picks; trading a 2010 first round pick to move up in the second round of the 2009 draft... for an undersized CB he traded away 18 months later. Blunder after expensive blunder.... total incompetence on display that made our team the laughingstock of the league. And to top it all off, he was caught cheating... again (and we still lost that game to a horrible 9'ers team).

And I beg to differ with you... when a HC takes the team to its worst record ever in the history of the franchise, then that team is significantly worse off than a mediocre 8-8 or 7-9 team.

Where are my pointed-toe boots? :D


LOL And I forgot the part about McDaniels' ego not allowing him to co-exist with Nolan... who was actually doing his job right. No, instead he had to micromanage and then fire the only guy who was getting it done. And the result was a total defensive collapse in the second half of the '09 season.

As usual, your facts need correcting.

- Leach was a FA going into 2010. McDaniels chose to replace him with a veteran player he knew from his former team who also happened to be arguably the best long snapper in the game. He also paid Paxton only slightly more than he received from the Cardinals, both of which were just slightly higher than the vet minimum and such a ridiculously small amount of the team's salary that bitching about it is borderline retarded.

Of course I should mention that the real reason you piss and moan about signing Paxton is because you have a completely blind and illogical hatred of anything Patriot, and Paxton just happened to be a Patriot. I've seen enough of your posts here and on the Orangemane to have seen that, and it was pointed out repeatedly in that thread over there where TheReverend laid an epic ass beating on you that resulted in you eventually deleting the entire thread.

- How is 3 less wins over a two year period than his predecessor "significantly worse"? It's worse, but not by a significant margin.

- Nolan was not fired by Denver. Nolan had actually reached an agreement to be the Dolphins DC and had they fax Denver an interview request, which Denver granted. They essentially allowed him to leave for a lateral position, even though it was pointed out by guys like Schefter and King that Denver could have had the Dolphins nailed for tampering if they were inclined to keep Nolan.

- How can you claim Nolan was doing his job right, and then turn around and acknowledge the "total defensive collapse" in 2009? This does not even make sense as these two statements are pretty much mutually exclusive.

You can actually throw legitimate criticism at Josh over the Nolan situation, but you have to do it from the angle that Josh wanted an aggressive, attacking defense and then hired a passive, read and react DC. Nolan himself said that he and Josh basically agreed to work together after Josh cold called him and discussed defensive philosophy with him. Both Josh and Mike should have not been so naive to think that Nolan would actually change his scheme after years of use, so they both bear blame there. Josh actually made a huge mistake in not hiring Dom Capers, who he knew from the Patriots and runs the exact type of defense Josh wanted.

[Bosco]

I could agree with everything but this:

No, a thousand times no. He took over a .500 team with no D but a great offense that had been barely missing the playoffs for several years

What great offense? We were 16th in scoring in 2008...dead on dick league average. We were 20th and 19th under Josh's tenure. Certainly not a substantial drop despite completely overhauling the offense.


While we're discussing McDaniels drafting and personnel decisions: He dumped two very good guards for a pair of scrubs; McGahee and Tebow have given us the #1 rushing offense DESPITE, not because, of that.

What two good guards did he dump?

[Ravage!!!]

McDaniels is a joke around the entire NFL and its entire fanbase as a HC. He was absolutely terrible and made the Denver Broncos a laughing stock with horrendous trades. The AFC West LAUGHED at how McDaniel's traded away the very talent that was making the Broncos a threat.

I always thanked the Chargers for firing Schottenheimer and hiring the idiot they have now. It made US better. I always thanked the Chiefs for hiring Herm Edwards. It made us better. I always thanked the Raiders for keeping Al Davis in charge (RIP) because it made us better. The entire AFC West was HOPING that we would KEEP McDaniels because it absolutely made THEM better. He was an embarrassment to the Broncos, to the fans, and to the city.

People STILL mention McDaniel's name when they are looking to make fun of the Broncos. His name is synonymous with "bad coaches." Right now, he's proving once again, that he just can't succeed unless Brady is his QB. Go figure. Another over rated, joke, that fell from the high pedestal they put themselves on after coaching a great player.

[Midnight Blue]

As usual, your facts need correcting.

- Leach was a FA going into 2010. McDaniels chose to replace him with a veteran player he knew from his former team who also happened to be arguably the best long snapper in the game. He also paid Paxton only slightly more than he received from the Cardinals, both of which were just slightly higher than the vet minimum and such a ridiculously small amount of the team's salary that bitching about it is borderline retarded.

Of course I should mention that the real reason you piss and moan about signing Paxton is because you have a completely blind and illogical hatred of anything Patriot, and Paxton just happened to be a Patriot. I've seen enough of your posts here and on the Orangemane to have seen that, and it was pointed out repeatedly in that thread over there where TheReverend laid an epic ass beating on you that resulted in you eventually deleting the entire thread.

- How is 3 less wins over a two year period than his predecessor "significantly worse"? It's worse, but not by a significant margin.

- Nolan was not fired by Denver. Nolan had actually reached an agreement to be the Dolphins DC and had they fax Denver an interview request, which Denver granted. They essentially allowed him to leave for a lateral position, even though it was pointed out by guys like Schefter and King that Denver could have had the Dolphins nailed for tampering if they were inclined to keep Nolan.

- How can you claim Nolan was doing his job right, and then turn around and acknowledge the "total defensive collapse" in 2009? This does not even make sense as these two statements are pretty much mutually exclusive.

You can actually throw legitimate criticism at Josh over the Nolan situation, but you have to do it from the angle that Josh wanted an aggressive, attacking defense and then hired a passive, read and react DC. Nolan himself said that he and Josh basically agreed to work together after Josh cold called him and discussed defensive philosophy with him. Both Josh and Mike should have not been so naive to think that Nolan would actually change his scheme after years of use, so they both bear blame there. Josh actually made a huge mistake in not hiring Dom Capers, who he knew from the Patriots and runs the exact type of defense Josh wanted.

Actually it's you who needs to get his facts right.

Leach was a perfectly good LS (Paxton was not an upgrade) who could have been re-signed for less than we paid Paxton. And again, with so many areas of real need on the team, making a change at LS was unnecessary.

Sure, I hate the Patriots. A lot of people do; not just me. Furthermore, it wasn't me who deleted the thread on the Mane. But why is a thread on the Mane relevant on BF? (it isn't).

There's a huge difference between sorta-sucking and picking in the teens... and sucking so horribly that the team's ridiculed on a weekly basis on Sportscenter; picking #2 overall. We hit rock-bottom with McDaniels.

Semantics. Nolan wasn't being allowed to do the job McDaniels hired him to do (due to McDaniels' micromanagement), so why wouldn't he seek another position elsewhere? McDaniels' micromanagement (undercutting the guy he brought in) was the direct cause of the defensive collapse.

Bottom line: McDaniels was nowhere near ready to be a HC... and definitely was given way too much power. He needed a bona fide GM with "veto power" over him... and even then, like every single Belichick assistant coach before him... he was destined to be fired from his first HC job. And after he failed so abjectly... he'll be lucky if he ever gets a second HC gig.

[Ravage!!!]

And after he failed so abjectly... he'll be lucky if he ever gets a second HC gig.

It will definitely be a while after watching how abruptly he has brought the St. Louis offense to a complete standstill. He's proving over and over again that he needs to suck at the nipple of Brady to have success.

[TXBRONC]

I could agree with everything but this:

No, a thousand times no. He took over a .500 team with no D but a great offense that had been barely missing the playoffs for several years, and turned them into a team with no D OR offense that CHEATED its way to the Leagues second worst record. Just think, if McDaniels hadn't cheated his way to #31 we might have Tebow AND Cam Newton (though I think Tebow and Miller the better value, at least at present.)

While we're discussing McDaniels drafting and personnel decisions: He dumped two very good guards for a pair of scrubs; McGahee and Tebow have given us the #1 rushing offense DESPITE, not because, of that.

Yeah that's pretty bad when you cheat to lose. :tsk:

[TXBRONC]

It will definitely be a while after watching how abruptly he has brought the St. Louis offense to a complete standstill. He's proving over and over again that he needs to suck at the nipple of Brady to have success.

Rav McDaniels is incapable of recognizing that he needs Brady becaus he has no idea what a franchise quarterback looks like.

[Midnight Blue]

Whether it's fair or not, the name McDaniels is forever connected to "cheating" because he's the common denominator between Spygate I and Spygate II. And in the minds of the majority of football fans, his name will also be synonymous with "Failure"... for the foreseeable future (until another HC fails even more spectacularly than he did).

[Joel]

What great offense? We were 16th in scoring in 2008...dead on dick league average. We were 20th and 19th under Josh's tenure. Certainly not a substantial drop despite completely overhauling the offense.
Right, but Cutler, Schefler and Marshall were young players still improving when we were dead average in 2008 (and remember we made a QB transition half-way through the season; then as now, I think most people would agree we make the playoffs if we do it at the start of the season.) Two of those players continued that improvement thereafter, while our offense regressed. By the way, on the whole "he only dumped selfish players" thing, Cutler wasn't a selfish player, and never had any problems with the team until he asked McDaniels man to man if the rumors about shopping him to other teams were true, heard him deny it to his face, then found out his coach lied to him point blank. McDaniels is disloyal, dishonest, confrontational, inexperienced and overconfident. Those are not qualities that scream "great head coach."

The above reasons are not the only ones a rapidly improving offense began declining though; it also had a lot to do with

What two good guards did he dump?
Wiegmann and Hamilton. The versatility of the latter in run and pass blocking, not to mention the center position he had often occupied prior to Wiegmanns arrival, were a tremendous asset to the team his entire career, even if that wasn't always appreciated by many fans. Beadles would have to get a LOT better to even approach that level of play. Wiegmann was brought to Denver from KC precisely because of the difficulty of finding a center without moving another starting guard over to the spot, and because of his standout career in KC; a month after he was a Pro Bowl alternate we released him in favor of Walton and KC re-signed him. The only way Walton gets to the Pro Bowl is to buy a ticket.

With the miles on those guys I could understand bringing in young depth to groom as their replacements, but just flat dumping them a year after tied for the Leagues least sacks is baffling for a guy who made his name developing QBs. But if I had a nickel for every baffling Josh McDaniels decision I would be a wealthy man.

[Northman]

I actually heard Mortenson talking earlier today on NFL32 i believe and he mentioned that McD might not even make it one season as OC for the Rams because of how bad the offense is. I find it hysterical that Bosco would come in and use the "injury" excuse about Bradford yet say that McD was so great with Cassell back in NE. Laughable, completely laughable.

[TimHippo]

I'm surprised there are still Josh McDummy white knights. You would think people would have figured out by now that he's awful. Worse than Dave Wannstedt, who single handedly destroyed two franchises.

LOL, at the Broncos being no worse off. McDummy destroyed everything of value on the team (Marshall, Hillis, Cutler).

And I still think McDummy was desperate to draft Tebow, not because he thought Tebow was really good, but because he wanted to use Tebow as a human shield to offset McDaniels unlikeability and grumpy nerd like awkwardness. In other words a P.R. move.

Because really you probably could have kept Cutler, Marshall and Hillis and drafted Tebow in the 2nd round. Or trade Cutler and use those picks for value and still kept Marshall, Hillis and Tebow.

[Ottokar Prohaska]

Even a blind hog finds an acorn every once in a while. Those guys did not produce under McDaniels last year, but are under a new coaching scheme. Coaches matter a whole lot, look at the turnaround in SF under Harbaugh. THe parts were there under Singletary, but he could not weld them into a team

[TXBRONC]

I actually heard Mortenson talking earlier today on NFL32 i believe and he mentioned that McD might not even make it one season as OC for the Rams because of how bad the offense is. I find it hysterical that Bosco would come in and use the "injury" excuse about Bradford yet say that McD was so great with Cassell back in NE. Laughable, completely laughable.

He had four years to work with Cassel but something that appears both Bosco and McDaniels forget is that Cassel was surrounded by a veteran team that knew how to win.

[TXBRONC]

Again, I've repeatedly pointed to his entire body of work, not just his 2007 season. It get mentioned alot because that was the pinnacle of NFL offenses, but he's had other impressive offenses.

No you haven't. I don't think that's what you would want to do anyway because the offense under his direction average only no better than 24 ppg as Softskull pointed out.


I'd say this was mixed results. We certainly achieved this through the early part of 2009 and even the very early part of 2010. Things fell apart quickly though. Some, but not all of this, can be laid on his doorstep.

Mixed results? No. It was horrid once we got past week 6 of '09. Two losing streaks of four games i.e. going 2-8 for the rest of the season is abject failure. Btw the last four game losing streak of '09 stretched into five consecutive going into '10. I can already see where you're going with Denver showing progress in the early part 2010. If I've guessed right it's solely because we were 2-2 through the first four weeks of the season. That would disingenuous to say the least because from week 5 of '10 to the bye week we lost we had another four game streak. Dating back to week 8 of '09 that's 14 loses. 12 of those loses came in groups of four. That's not a mixed bag it's total failure. And yes it can all be laid at his feet because he's the one that replaced 85% of the roster. It was stupid to get rid of talented players of lesser quality and then to replace shit with different shit. To barrow from Romeo and Juliet "Shit by any other name is still shit." Finally on this point if it was simply a mixed bag he would still be here.

Sure, but he traded those guys because they were selfish, me first players who did not fit in with the type of culture he was looking to build. He tried to make it work with everyone of them and when they wouldn't buy into the program, he moved them. Any head coach in that situation would have done what he did and it's unrealistic to expect anyone to put up with that kind of insubordination.

That's bull. He did not try to make it work. He got into way to many pissing contest with players and coaches alike for that be true. Head coaches with maturity are smart enough to work things out with talented players that could help them win games. The culture he cultivated was one distrust, disloyalty and contempt.


He neither lied nor cheated. The first spygate scandal came down on Belichick, Scarnechia (sp?) and Kraft. McDaniels was never implicated in or punished during that episode. I don't get where you claim that he lied to boss about that, as Belichick was the one aware of everything going on. He also did not lie or cheat with the San Fransisco fiasco. If you remember correctly, the NFL was very clear in stating that they were certain McDaniels had not viewed the tapes. McDaniels punishment was for failing to report the infraction of one of his subordinates to the league. While that was a breach of ethics and he deserved the fine he received, it involved neither lying nor cheating.

Again no. First of all, any person with the least little bit of common sense would understand the taping the Patriots opponents would be done to benefit their coordinators. I'm not talking about him lying to Belichick I'm talking about his lying to Bowlen and the public. He was asked point blank about spygate and he claimed he didn't know anything. What does McDaniels do he goes out and hires Scarnechia. How damn stupid is that? Fast forward to spygate II Scanechia is involved yet again. There is no way Scarnechia did it on his own McDaniels like most head coaches is a control freak. No NFL made it clear they couldn't that McDaniels watched the video. They couldn't accuse him without proof. McDaniels says he didn't but has no witness to that effect. If Scarnechia vouched for him why would I trust him? I don't believe him for a minute.

Jumping forward McDaniels is in a coaches meeting and tells them what the difference is between Spygate and Spygate II. He told them Patriots practiced for what they found on the film. He also told them that if it ever got out they could all lose their jobs. That was reported by Jay Glazer when McDaniels was asked he never denied it. In fact it what was something to the effect "What my coaches and I discuss in private we like to keep private." That's called lying to your boss and to the public. After McDaniels was fired it was also reported that his compensation package was one that was favorable to the Broncos.

[Mike]

I really can't believe there are McD defenders out there.

What does McD deserve? A kick to the nads for the rest of his life.

[zbeg]

I really can't believe there are McD defenders out there.

What does McD deserve? A kick to the nads for the rest of his life.

I think in this case, "supporter" means "someone who doesn't think he should be killed." People have good and bad qualities, and while nobody is perfect, it's also true that nobody is imperfect.

People behave as if he has no redeeming qualities whatsoever, when that's hardly the case.

And I look at Tebow, Beadles, Walton, and DT playing well and you can't just pretend that McDaniels didn't bring them in. The Broncos are the talk of the sports world because McDaniels was one of the few people who believed in Tebow before the draft.

His decision to draft Tebow is a huge reason why we are the most exciting team in sports right now. Why is that so difficult to acknowledge?

[atwater27]

Just what exactly did Josh McDaniels do to the Denver Broncos? He took over sub par team with no defense that couldn't make the playoffs and left them a sub par team with no defense that couldn't make the playoffs. When the rubber meets the road, this team wasn't all that worse off then what he started with.

.
Exactly ... when he should have been building on what we ALREADY HAD, he pissed away offensive talent so he could abuse resources and draft picks so he could get "HIS" guys. That's how an infant would run a team.

[I Eat Staples]

Just what exactly did Josh McDaniels do to the Denver Broncos? He took over sub par team with no defense that couldn't make the playoffs and left them a sub par team with no defense that couldn't make the playoffs. When the rubber meets the road, this team wasn't all that worse off then what he started with.

Wrong, we were an average team with a good offense and a terrible defense. When he left we were a terrible team with a terrible offense AND defense.

Since you admit that he took over a team with a terrible defense, wouldn't you agree that he should have been trying to fix that instead of trading away all of our offensive players?

[atwater27]

Wrong, we were an average team with a good offense and a terrible defense. When he left we were a terrible team with a terrible offense AND defense.

Since you admit that he took over a team with a terrible defense, wouldn't you agree that he should have been trying to fix that instead of trading away all of our offensive players?

I cannot comprehend other people's inability to comprehend this concept.

[TXBRONC]

I cannot comprehend other people's inability to comprehend this concept.

Yep that's McDaniels was suppose to do. I still expected a scheme change on offense considering he was/is an offensive coordinator. But I assumed wrongly that he was smarted enough to make good talent rather than trade it away for lesser talent.