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DenBronx
10-08-2007, 10:22 PM
Here is my list of players that I think will not be with the team.

Rod Smith
Tom Nalen
John Lynch
Ian Gold
Simeon Rice
Sam Adams
Nate Jackson

Possibles

Matt Lepsis
Nick Fergeson
Travis Henry (If gets the 1 year ban)


I think this offseason a lot of vets will either retire or get cut. Elam should be around a couple of more years but he is a kicker, they last forever. Sadly I think Nalen and Smith are gone for sure. Lynch has been one of my favorites and is still playing like a warrior but as much as I love the guy I think were ready for some young blood on this team. Not to mention I think by these guys stepping aside it should free up some good cap space.

Of course there are a few fodder players I didnt mention but I just wanted to throw out the bigger names. Jackson isnt a big name but he has fought to stay on the team year after year but I dont see us keeping him.

Add to or take away from the list.

Who do you guys think will go or stay?

BigBroncLove
10-08-2007, 10:37 PM
Here is my list of players that I think will not be with the team.

Rod Smith
Tom Nalen
John Lynch
Ian Gold
Simeon Rice
Sam Adams
Nate Jackson

Possibles

Matt Lepsis
Nick Fergeson
Travis Henry (If gets the 1 year ban)


I think this offseason a lot of vets will either retire or get cut. Elam should be around a couple of more years but he is a kicker, they last forever. Sadly I think Nalen and Smith are gone for sure. Lynch has been one of my favorites and is still playing like a warrior but as much as I love the guy I think were ready for some young blood on this team. Not to mention I think by these guys stepping aside it should free up some good cap space.

Of course there are a few fodder players I didnt mention but I just wanted to throw out the bigger names. Jackson isnt a big name but he has fought to stay on the team year after year but I dont see us keeping him.

Add to or take away from the list.

Who do you guys think will go or stay?


Here's my take.

Rod Smith - Definately a retire. I think keeping him this year is more about giving him a proper send off then anything else.

Tom Nalen - Agreed, especially with the injury/

John Lynch - I think he has another year left, but if this team puts up a terrible year he might choose to hang it up.

Ian Gold - I can only hope he does leave.

Simeon Rice - I still want to see if he can do anything before I make an opinion on him.

Sam Adams - Depends on what we can grab in the off season. Him and Thomas are the only ones I want to see held onto at DT currently.

Nate Jackson - With his history of injuries, it might be time for him to go. I think Scheff is a far better option and Nate and Alexander are expendable personally.

Possibles

Matt Lepsis - This I don't think so. I think HArris is going to need at least another year to adjust to the Broncos system and be ready for any starting position at tackle. Right now he is the only veteran left on the OL, and I think we need him personally.

Nick Fergeson - Only if Lynch decides to stay. revamping both Safety positions in one year could create serious problems IMO. Though I will admit Hamza Abdullah might make the transition easier if he is everything that has been reported through TC

Travis Henry (If gets the 1 year ban) - have to see how it pans out.

Interesting subject though. Great post. :beer:

DenBronx
10-08-2007, 10:41 PM
thanks....yeah fergie was listed as a maybe mainly because of lynch but id rather see lynch stay another year and fergie go. it would be an better transition.

DenBronx
10-08-2007, 10:42 PM
i think ramsey will remain a backup.

lex
10-08-2007, 10:44 PM
No Martinez or Clark? Do you guys really see these guys sticking around? It would be nice if one of them contributed but not both. Mike Bell or Cecil Sapp will be gone.

BigBroncLove
10-08-2007, 10:45 PM
No Martinez or Clark? Do you guys really see these guys sticking around? It would be nice if one of them contributed but not both. Mike Bell or Cecil Sapp will be gone.

This is about veterans.... not the whole roster...

And I don't think Bell or Sapp will be gone.

lex
10-08-2007, 10:47 PM
This is about veterans.... not the whole roster...

And I don't think Bell or Sapp will be gone.

Yeah, Clark has been around though. I also think Sapp and Bell are competing for a spot next year.

BroncoWave
10-08-2007, 10:48 PM
The only people who are must-keeps for next season IMO are Cutler, Walker, Marshall, Stokely, Graham, Scheffler, some of the young o-linemen, Moss, Crowder, Dumervil, Thomas, DJ Williams, Bailey, and Bly. Everyone else is expendable IMO.

People who we should definitely get rid of IMO are Henry (assuming suspension), Smith, all the D-lineman other than the ones I listed, Gold, Webster, Foxworth, and Lynch.

Everyone else I don't really care if they stay or go.

BigBroncLove
10-08-2007, 10:51 PM
Yeah, Clark has been around though. I also think Sapp and Bell are competing for a spot next year.

I agree. I think Sapp will be kept for the FB position, and Bells retention or trade will depend largely on the RB situation with Henry and if he is retained, if Hall still finds a place on this roster, which I doubt he will personally over Bell.

DenBronx
10-08-2007, 10:53 PM
The only people who are must-keeps for next season IMO are Cutler, Walker, Marshall, Stokely, Graham, Scheffler, some of the young o-linemen, Moss, Crowder, Dumervil, Thomas, DJ Williams, Bailey, and Bly. Everyone else is expendable IMO.

People who we should definitely get rid of IMO are Henry (assuming suspension), Smith, all the D-lineman other than the ones I listed, Gold, Webster, Foxworth, and Lynch.

Everyone else I don't really care if they stay or go.


.

then wed be left with like 10 guys on the roster. :noidea:

i actually agree....i think some guys will become more backups/role players next year like webster

really i hope henry wins the case....i really like his running stlye and i dont want to see us spend an early draft pick on a running back.

BroncoWave
10-08-2007, 11:07 PM
.

then wed be left with like 10 guys on the roster. :noidea:

i actually agree....i think some guys will become more backups/role players next year like webster

really i hope henry wins the case....i really like his running stlye and i dont want to see us spend an early draft pick on a running back.

I said those are the only "must-keeps" I realize that we are going to keep other guys, but other than the ones I listed, I don't really care who stays or who goes. I was mainly focusing my post on starters.

DenBronx
10-08-2007, 11:10 PM
I said those are the only "must-keeps" I realize that we are going to keep other guys, but other than the ones I listed, I don't really care who stays or who goes. I was mainly focusing my post on starters.

whatever happens....it would be nice to see us get back to the days when we were putting up 40+ points a game with ease. even when your defense sucks its still a good chance that you will win the game.

special teams is flat out terrible....we never have good field position.

SBboundBRONCOS
10-09-2007, 12:06 AM
well taking a look at these posts i have realized something, we have a very inbalanced team in terms of experience.

they are either very young or very old, there are no great players or solid for that matter in there prime other than champ, bly, javon, and maybe graham i guess. its kind of sad for the present but the future looks so great to be a broncos :rockon:

topscribe
10-09-2007, 12:12 AM
No Martinez or Clark? Do you guys really see these guys sticking around? It would be nice if one of them contributed but not both. Mike Bell or Cecil Sapp will be gone.

Listen, if Martinez has more games like last week, he's here for the long haul.

Unless he gets too good and FA's it out of here . . .

-----

Joel
10-09-2007, 07:13 PM
Here is my list of players that I think will not be with the team.

Rod Smith
I'm not willing to prognosticate on this one until he's off PUP and we see how he plays; heaven knows w/he'll have opportunities with Walker, Stokley and Scheffler injured. We cut Glenn Martinez a couple months ago; now he's our #2 WR, so I think there's a place on this team for a healthy Rod Smith.

Tom Nalen
I love him to death, but he's not getting any younger, and I think this latest injury may indeed be his swan song, which is a real shame. I just hope we get Hamilton back, because even if Meyers is the future LG/backup C that Hamilton was, he can't play both positions at once.

John Lynch
One of the few bits of good news on our D right now; as long as he maintains his current level of play I don't expect him to go anywhere either.

Ian Gold
It really depends on a lot of things, such as what Bates really wants from his LBs, whom we draft at DT and LB, and how quickly they start performing. Recent years have seen Denver pursue lighter faster LBs who can swarm to the ball and cover check down men, but as porous as our run D is at the line they may not be a legitimate option any more. I know a lot of folks are unhappy with Gold, and he's not getting younger either, but what you have to ask yourself is not "am I happy with Golds coverage on Dallas Clark" but "would I rather have D.J. or Nate Webster do it instead?"

Simeon Rice
Little early in the game to be predicting Rices future.

Sam Adams
I don't expect him back next year unless he starts doing a LOT better against the run; if he is back, I certainly don't expect a third year.

Nate Jackson
Another "we'll see"; according to Wikipedia (and Broncomania at the time) Scheffler was supposed to have been recovered from his broken foot in time for Opening Day. Anyone heard from him recently...? Mustard's officially a tackle now, so if Jackson's gone, who's our #2 TE? Guess we'll find out in five days, huh...? ;)

Possibles

Matt Lepsis
Nick Fergeson
Travis Henry (If gets the 1 year ban)
Wow, dumping both our starting safeties, eh? Are you expecting Brandon back, or are we starting Abdullah, Cox, and/or a rookie to be named later...? I think Lepsis has at least a couple years left, provided he stays healthy, but if Henrys appeal is unsuccessful his career is probably over; his career in Denver MUST be over, if only because of the message keeping him would send to guys like Thomas and Moss. Dumping him after the suspension would send them a GREAT message: One quick toke can send you from League leading rusher to forced retirement in the blink of an eye.

I think this offseason a lot of vets will either retire or get cut. Elam should be around a couple of more years but he is a kicker, they last forever. Sadly I think Nalen and Smith are gone for sure. Lynch has been one of my favorites and is still playing like a warrior but as much as I love the guy I think were ready for some young blood on this team. Not to mention I think by these guys stepping aside it should free up some good cap space.

Of course there are a few fodder players I didnt mention but I just wanted to throw out the bigger names. Jackson isnt a big name but he has fought to stay on the team year after year but I dont see us keeping him.

Add to or take away from the list.

Who do you guys think will go or stay?
New blood is all well and good if it can't play, but until/unless we see someone like that I'd just as soon keep our Pro Bowl FS, thanks. I don't have a long list of people I want to cut, because most of the folks I wanted gone left after last year. The only thing I'd change is getting a NT or two and a decent SLB who can play MLB and WLB well in a pinch (though it seems we're going to need a versatile back as well). Adams and Nalen look like next years only casualties from age (though Lynch and Lepsis will certainly be there soon).

McKeough
10-09-2007, 07:40 PM
:( I'll miss Lynch.

A whole bunch. :(

I hope he sticks around for another.

It'll be a sad day in Bronconation the day #47 hangs 'em up. (Same with Rod Smith.) :(

BigBroncLove
10-09-2007, 07:42 PM
I'm not willing to prognosticate on this one until he's off PUP and we see how he plays; heaven knows w/he'll have opportunities with Walker, Stokley and Scheffler injured. We cut Glenn Martinez a couple months ago; now he's our #2 WR, so I think there's a place on this team for a healthy Rod Smith.

Well Walker should hopefully be coming back from his injury after the bye. The MRI came back with no serious damage, just inflammation and swelling. The length of time hes been down is worrisome, but nothing released by the training staff or front office makes me think he'll be out for long. Stokley has a minor calf injury and played this last Sunday and still looked strong, playing at a high tempo. Scheffler is 100% back from his injury and made some very impressive catches this last Sunday, put up some good numbers, and even blocked a punt. Marshall is our #2 WR also..... and Martinez did show himself a legitimate #4 this last game. Whether he can return with some consistency is up in the air, but I like Smith over Martinez any day. However the talent at WR we have currently and the contracts we will need to sign (Marshall and Stokley) makes me think Smith is on his way out and this is his send off.


Another "we'll see"; according to Wikipedia (and Broncomania at the time) Scheffler was supposed to have been recovered from his broken foot in time for Opening Day. Anyone heard from him recently...? Mustard's officially a tackle now, so if Jackson's gone, who's our #2 TE? Guess we'll find out in five days, huh...? ;)

You must of missed the SD game because Scheff returned with a force as I posted above.


It really depends on a lot of things, such as what Bates really wants from his LBs, whom we draft at DT and LB, and how quickly they start performing. Recent years have seen Denver pursue lighter faster LBs who can swarm to the ball and cover check down men, but as porous as our run D is at the line they may not be a legitimate option any more. I know a lot of folks are unhappy with Gold, and he's not getting younger either, but what you have to ask yourself is not "am I happy with Golds coverage on Dallas Clark" but "would I rather have D.J. or Nate Webster do it instead?"

While I agree it depends on what the coaching staff wants, as Bates and Shanahan prefers speedy LB's, but yes I would prefer DJ covering Dallas Clark. Ian is showing himself incapable of playing an honest man on man coverage. Against Gates and Clark (given two of hte leagues best TE's) his ability to cover the deep threat was completely MIA. He jumps under routes to often and no longer has the speed to recover from taking those risks. While it could be a play calling issue, his level of play at the line is also worrisome. While he is the only LB who seems to constantly hit his gap assignment, he is continuely man handled at the line of scrimmage. FB's and TE's push him around as season past, and it's becoming an issue. If his level of play doens;t improve through the seaosn I would prefer to see him go....

Joel
10-09-2007, 11:23 PM
Well Walker should hopefully be coming back from his injury after the bye. The MRI came back with no serious damage, just inflammation and swelling. The length of time hes been down is worrisome, but nothing released by the training staff or front office makes me think he'll be out for long. Stokley has a minor calf injury and played this last Sunday and still looked strong, playing at a high tempo. Scheffler is 100% back from his injury and made some very impressive catches this last Sunday, put up some good numbers, and even blocked a punt. Marshall is our #2 WR also..... and Martinez did show himself a legitimate #4 this last game. Whether he can return with some consistency is up in the air, but I like Smith over Martinez any day. However the talent at WR we have currently and the contracts we will need to sign (Marshall and Stokley) makes me think Smith is on his way out and this is his send off.
Remember, Rod renegotiated his contract last year; he's making about a million five IIRC, so I don't think he'll be a big obstacle to re-signing anyone. If I had to choose between a health Rod and Stokley I'd take the former every time.

You must of missed the SD game because Scheff returned with a force as I posted above.
In point of fact I did miss most of it; I just started a new job working compressed 12 hour shifts, so I slept until I had to leave Sunday and saw the FG drive as I was getting ready to go, but that was it. I knew it was bad when we were down 17-0, but hardly expected us to get outscored 24-0 in the second half at home. While I didn't see the game, I have to think the missing WRs and the 100+ yards we gave up to Michael Turner (the fifth consecutive week we gave someone well over a hundred yards rushing) dictated a lot of our play calling. We're #1 against the pass, had the #1 rusher until Sunday but are #32 against the run, so I think if we lick that problem we're in great shape; until we lick that problem we're toast.

While I agree it depends on what the coaching staff wants, as Bates and Shanahan prefers speedy LB's, but yes I would prefer DJ covering Dallas Clark. Ian is showing himself incapable of playing an honest man on man coverage. Against Gates and Clark (given two of hte leagues best TE's) his ability to cover the deep threat was completely MIA. He jumps under routes to often and no longer has the speed to recover from taking those risks. While it could be a play calling issue, his level of play at the line is also worrisome. While he is the only LB who seems to constantly hit his gap assignment, he is continuely man handled at the line of scrimmage. FB's and TE's push him around as season past, and it's becoming an issue. If his level of play doens;t improve through the seaosn I would prefer to see him go....
Well, Ian Gold is a WLB on a team that wants speed from its LBs. He's never going to be a devastating run stuffer at 223, but I'm not convinced the real problem with him in pass coverage is anything more than having good ends and no tackles, thus allowing quarterbacks to wait for an open man (i.e. the same problem last year when everyone wanted DEs; well, we got ends, happy, folks...?) My only real concern about Gold is his age; my LB concerns revolve primarily around the fact we have one good MLB if D.J.s develop continues and NO backup or decent SLB in Webster. Draft a future starting MLB and it solves a lot of problems; a long term backup/replacement for D.J. who can almost certainly play S/WLB in the interim.

BigBroncLove
10-10-2007, 12:23 AM
Remember, Rod renegotiated his contract last year; he's making about a million five IIRC, so I don't think he'll be a big obstacle to re-signing anyone. If I had to choose between a health Rod and Stokley I'd take the former every time.

Even with a smaller contract, given the space the Broncos are likely to have next year will dictate Rods contract. His play last year was uninspiring, but I'm not ready to write him off. He was playing injured for most of the season, and despite this still seemed capable of competing at an NFL level. I love Rod, but Stokley is also proving to be a very worth while threat, especially on third downs. I don't think Stokley is a #1 or even #2 threat, but neither is Rod anymore from what I've seen. So once Rod comes off the PUP list it will be telling who wins the job and who doesn't. The fact that Stokley has had more time to get insynch with Cutler gives him an edge this season (as Cutler has made big strides over 2006). Stokley is in a one year contract, so whoever performs at a higher level will get to stay IMO. Rod Smith is a team player and a realistic one, if he isn't doing well I strongly believe he would prefer to retire as a Bronco then pursue a career with any other team. That being said, I still love Smith, he's been a force for us for a long time.


In point of fact I did miss most of it; I just started a new job working compressed 12 hour shifts, so I slept until I had to leave Sunday and saw the FG drive as I was getting ready to go, but that was it. I knew it was bad when we were down 17-0, but hardly expected us to get outscored 24-0 in the second half at home. While I didn't see the game, I have to think the missing WRs and the 100+ yards we gave up to Michael Turner (the fifth consecutive week we gave someone well over a hundred yards rushing) dictated a lot of our play calling. We're #1 against the pass, had the #1 rusher until Sunday but are #32 against the run, so I think if we lick that problem we're in great shape; until we lick that problem we're toast.

Missing Walker has hurt us. Our passing game isn't nearly as wide open without him. He forces defenses to allow Stokley and Marshall space, and he himself obviously produces for this offense. Without him the passing game has showed itself to be mediocre but ceritenly not potent IMO, despite Cutlers strides. Part of Turners big run IMO was on the coaching staff. The players played a big part in allowing that huge run he had at the end of the half, but none the less the coaching staff put them in that position. I am not making excuses for a porous run defense that has us bottom of the league :mad: , but it was the reality of the play IMO. I agree. If somehow we can fix this run D, we can become far more competitive.


Well, Ian Gold is a WLB on a team that wants speed from its LBs. He's never going to be a devastating run stuffer at 223, but I'm not convinced the real problem with him in pass coverage is anything more than having good ends and no tackles, thus allowing quarterbacks to wait for an open man (i.e. the same problem last year when everyone wanted DEs; well, we got ends, happy, folks...?) My only real concern about Gold is his age; my LB concerns revolve primarily around the fact we have one good MLB if D.J.s develop continues and NO backup or decent SLB in Webster. Draft a future starting MLB and it solves a lot of problems; a long term backup/replacement for D.J. who can almost certainly play S/WLB in the interim.

Sure we got Ends, but we lost all the talent we had at DT, which for many was as big a problem as DE was. I know myself along with many many others complained more about the play at DT then at DE. And yeah, I am happy in our DE's. They are the one shinning group in our Defense in the front 7. Never the less Golds lack of size has been scrutinized for a long time. Now, its just been amplified in a system that lacks DT's and solid run stuffing MIKE without Wilson. Did you see his coverage over Gates against SD or Clark in Indy? He played poorly. Now against Clark I can find excuses. Clark burned Bailey a few times as well, and Gold did have the instincts to at least stay with him, but his choices in how he chooses to cover an obviously speedier TE then he as an LB stir questions. It's far more responsible as an LB to play over top the TE (Especially when you know you won't have help over top by a safety) then to risk going under the route and risk the deep ball. Once again, this could be play calling, but it's on Gold overall. His lack of ability at both the LOS and in coverage make him liability IMO. Of course it's just my :2cents:

Good discussion Morambar

Watchthemiddle
10-10-2007, 12:28 AM
Before people like Lynch, Nalen, and Rod retire...some of these youngsters need to step up and start becoming leaders.

Right now is a good chance to do so with Nalen out, Rod out, and Lynch not 100%.

Thats the thing that makes me sad about losing good vets that have been here for a while. Nalen, Rod, and Elam are the only SB players left on this team. I hope they can all rub off in a postitive way to these young guys and tell them how to win.

Joel
10-14-2007, 06:49 AM
Even with a smaller contract, given the space the Broncos are likely to have next year will dictate Rods contract. His play last year was uninspiring, but I'm not ready to write him off. He was playing injured for most of the season, and despite this still seemed capable of competing at an NFL level. I love Rod, but Stokley is also proving to be a very worth while threat, especially on third downs. I don't think Stokley is a #1 or even #2 threat, but neither is Rod anymore from what I've seen. So once Rod comes off the PUP list it will be telling who wins the job and who doesn't. The fact that Stokley has had more time to get insynch with Cutler gives him an edge this season (as Cutler has made big strides over 2006). Stokley is in a one year contract, so whoever performs at a higher level will get to stay IMO. Rod Smith is a team player and a realistic one, if he isn't doing well I strongly believe he would prefer to retire as a Bronco then pursue a career with any other team. That being said, I still love Smith, he's been a force for us for a long time.
I just think Smith is a better choice for all the reasons that made him a SB Champ and perennial Pro Bowler (even mid-way through his injury in 2005). It's hard for me to be objective about this, I admit, because for years I've felt he was getting beaten up badly as the only quality receiver forced to chase badly thrown passes on every third and long. Once Eddie Mac and Sharpe were gone "target has been acquired" for every CB, safeties and even the occasional LB playing Denver. I think the only person who knew Rod was hurt--badly--before me was Rod. Now he's healthy again, and he's not a blinding speedster--but he never was. He's still just as much the savvy vet who runs perfect routes, finds seams in zones and creates separation at the last second against CBs much the way Champ Bailey suddenly closes when everyone on the field, in the stands and watching on TV is sure he's beat. Don't get me wrong, I like Brandon Stokley, but I just don't see him doing all those things, and that kind of reliability and, until last year when every step of every route must have felt like striding through hell on raw bone, sure handedness, which are the very things a young QB like Cutler needs to build his confidence and find his limits. And let's not forget that it was only last week that Stokley had finally played more games with Jay starting than Rod has.

Missing Walker has hurt us. Our passing game isn't nearly as wide open without him. He forces defenses to allow Stokley and Marshall space, and he himself obviously produces for this offense. Without him the passing game has showed itself to be mediocre but ceritenly not potent IMO, despite Cutlers strides. Part of Turners big run IMO was on the coaching staff. The players played a big part in allowing that huge run he had at the end of the half, but none the less the coaching staff put them in that position. I am not making excuses for a porous run defense that has us bottom of the league :mad: , but it was the reality of the play IMO. I agree. If somehow we can fix this run D, we can become far more competitive.
It does seem like losing Marshall has hurt us in terms of more than just his his excellent production (I really wish I could have seen more than a couple plays of last weeks game, since it was only the second one shown in Texas this season). Against Indy it seemed like he was going to Marshall a LOT, with Stokley and Graham being distant second choices, and I think the Colts exploited that, both on the first half incompletion that forced a FG when Stokley was wide open for a first and later when he threw a pass to Marshall that was stepped under and intercepted. That's not really a knock on Cutler so much as a tribute to Dungy and the Colts (yeah, I know; I hated saying it, too); the fact is Cutler had played five games with Stokley and Graham and ten with Marshall, in addition to all the time they spent together practicing on the second team last year, so it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who his go to guy is gonna be. The Turner run I'll have to take your word on, but I do feel obligated to ask: If you're riding a lead late in the first against a Divisonal opponent who's a game up on you, what are you gonna call...? I'm willing to bet Bates and his boys were as sure of the answer as I am, but all they can do is call the plays; they can't physically force the players to execute them.

Sure we got Ends, but we lost all the talent we had at DT, which for many was as big a problem as DE was. I know myself along with many many others complained more about the play at DT then at DE. And yeah, I am happy in our DE's. They are the one shinning group in our Defense in the front 7. Never the less Golds lack of size has been scrutinized for a long time. Now, its just been amplified in a system that lacks DT's and solid run stuffing MIKE without Wilson. Did you see his coverage over Gates against SD or Clark in Indy? He played poorly. Now against Clark I can find excuses. Clark burned Bailey a few times as well, and Gold did have the instincts to at least stay with him, but his choices in how he chooses to cover an obviously speedier TE then he as an LB stir questions. It's far more responsible as an LB to play over top the TE (Especially when you know you won't have help over top by a safety) then to risk going under the route and risk the deep ball. Once again, this could be play calling, but it's on Gold overall. His lack of ability at both the LOS and in coverage make him liability IMO. Of course it's just my :2cents:
Preaching to the choir on that one, m'friend, at least on the DTs. Warren was the only DT worth a bucket of warm spit last year, IMHO, and he's gone now; my top draft priority was NTs followed by LBs because I thought we had three premiere starters and NO depth apart from a 14 year veteran backup SLB. Well, we drafted two ends and a DT instead, lost Wilson and had Burns retire, so all the folks who wanted ends were dancing in the aisles while I was petrified. I felt a little better with NINE LBs in camp and the signing/trade for Adams and Kennedy, but then almost all the leading LB candidates had season/career ending injuries and we cut Kennedy AND Warren while I went back to chewing my nails down to the elbow. Three months later and here we are....

The best thing I can say is the crippling loss of Ekuban is only hobbling with all the other ends we got (though only Crowder looks to have the potential to be the run stopper Ekkie was, and I've yet to see him play a down).

As far as Gold, I'm still not entirely convinced it's all on him; as I'm sure you're aware even really good pass rushers (say, Kenard Lang, Elvis Dumervil and Ebenezer Ekuban, just to pick some names out of a hat... ) can't get to the QB if their DTs don't draw double teams and/or collapse the pocket, and even if they DO most NFL QBs will just step up into that comfy pocket and zip a pass 30 yards down field to an open man. People complained last year that "well, gee, Champ, D-Will and Lynch can't cover everyone FOREVER; get to the QB!" but it's just as true now, and I think the problem is much the same: We only have ends, not DTs. Adams can help with that when he's on the field, and certainly two out of three of him, McKinley and Thomas are more effective than a dinged up Warren and Veal ( "veal" is the technical term for "a young calf beaten until soft" ), but we're still gonna need good DTs to have an effective pass rush, and without that guys are gonna get open. Certainly guys like Clark, Gates and Gonzales will; it's a question of when, not if.

Even saying THAT, I think Gold SHOULD have had safety help over the top, and was playing the correct position for a WLB; my biggest concern about our LBs, ironically, was the ability of D.J. and Webster to stay with TEs and backs in the short passing game, because Gold is the only one who does that consistently (D.J. has the ability, but he's got a LOT on his plate right now.... ) I mean, why wouldn't there be safety help on the deep ball; that's the bulk of a FS job, especially against a hydra like the Colts when possessed of the Leagues top passing D in the persons of Champ and Bly. I don't think Champ needs help with Harrison, Bly shouldn't need much with Wayne, and blitzing Mannings excellent line is death, so where else would the safeties be except making sure Clark doesn't go deep when Gold has him covered short? It's not like they have to cover Stokley or double up on the Colts new rookie. Actually, after looking him up on Wiki I feel better about Gold, whom we didn't draft nearly as long ago as I thought, but leave a couple gaping holes on a D and the rest of it will start to have problems, too, whether it's Al Wilson colliding with John Lynch to keep Willie Parker out of the end zone (and incidentally force a fumble), forcing Lynch to leave the game and Wilson to ultimately retire, or Champ Bailey pulling a muscle having to be one of the few sure tacklers or Ian Gold getting beat deep because he can't guess where a receivers going for ten seconds straight. Gimme a NT who DEMANDS double teams, even from the Colts and Pats, and a SLB just as likely to get double digit sacks as D.J., and I guarantee Gold will look a lot better; he'll probably have half a dozen or more picks. He's not gonna knock Jerome Bettis cold, but then, that's not really his job. ;)

Good discussion Morambar
Thanks, and likewise.

Requiem / The Dagda
10-14-2007, 10:40 AM
I'd just love for the Broncos to get a hard-nosed, all out maniac at MLB. A guy like Goff would be nice. If he times well that's a bonus, but we really need to pick up on the mental edge when drafting players. Get a guy who has the instincts and the game smarts to play it effectively. Maybe DJ will really turn it on, maybe he won't but I'd rather have a guy like Goff at MIKE with DJ at WILL with someone else at SAM. That's probably give us our best chance to succeed. Speed is something we covet, but I hope we take a look at players like Goff who are game day beasts, who play fast on the field, but won't time fast.

BigBroncLove
10-14-2007, 06:38 PM
I just think Smith is a better choice for all the reasons that made him a SB Champ and perennial Pro Bowler (even mid-way through his injury in 2005). It's hard for me to be objective about this, I admit, because for years I've felt he was getting beaten up badly as the only quality receiver forced to chase badly thrown passes on every third and long. Once Eddie Mac and Sharpe were gone "target has been acquired" for every CB, safeties and even the occasional LB playing Denver. I think the only person who knew Rod was hurt--badly--before me was Rod. Now he's healthy again, and he's not a blinding speedster--but he never was. He's still just as much the savvy vet who runs perfect routes, finds seams in zones and creates separation at the last second against CBs much the way Champ Bailey suddenly closes when everyone on the field, in the stands and watching on TV is sure he's beat. Don't get me wrong, I like Brandon Stokley, but I just don't see him doing all those things, and that kind of reliability and, until last year when every step of every route must have felt like striding through hell on raw bone, sure handedness, which are the very things a young QB like Cutler needs to build his confidence and find his limits. And let's not forget that it was only last week that Stokley had finally played more games with Jay starting than Rod has.

The point was that even if Stokley has just surpassed Rod Smith on games played with Cutler, that the playbook is much different then it is last year when concerning Cutler, adn Cutlers strides over last year have him playing at a different level and pace then last year. I think some things can carry over from last year, and Smiths knowledge of the playbook and skill on the field will help, but what Smith and Cutler did last year has little bearing IMO on this year. The fact that Smith cannot practice with the team while on the PUP list is a big thing, and schemes have obviously changed over last year as far as this offense goes. Nice pat on your own back though :lol: but I think everyone on the Broncos team knew before any fan did concerning Smiths condition. Don't get me wrong either I love Rod Smith, but how he responds to his return from such a massive injury and whether his age or lack of time with Cutler will effect him remains up in the air. Currently Stokley has a step ahead of him. Smith is the consumate underdog who exceeds expectations, and I hope he can, but his age alone puts the question as for who this team decides to hold on to. Stokleys performance has left little for want, and none of the same questions surround him so far. I think the smart money is on Stokley, but I hope Smith proves me wrong.


It does seem like losing Marshall has hurt us in terms of more than just his his excellent production (I really wish I could have seen more than a couple plays of last weeks game, since it was only the second one shown in Texas this season). Against Indy it seemed like he was going to Marshall a LOT, with Stokley and Graham being distant second choices, and I think the Colts exploited that, both on the first half incompletion that forced a FG when Stokley was wide open for a first and later when he threw a pass to Marshall that was stepped under and intercepted. That's not really a knock on Cutler so much as a tribute to Dungy and the Colts (yeah, I know; I hated saying it, too); the fact is Cutler had played five games with Stokley and Graham and ten with Marshall, in addition to all the time they spent together practicing on the second team last year, so it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who his go to guy is gonna be. The Turner run I'll have to take your word on, but I do feel obligated to ask: If you're riding a lead late in the first against a Divisonal opponent who's a game up on you, what are you gonna call...? I'm willing to bet Bates and his boys were as sure of the answer as I am, but all they can do is call the plays; they can't physically force the players to execute them.

MArshall obviously seemed the go to guy, and you make valid obvious poitns as to why he is, but I wouldn't put the missed deep pass to Stokley on Cutlers preference for Marshall. Its obvious that Walker and Cutler have the best repoir. Marshall is a distant but valuable second. The reason Cutler missed that pass came down to pressure IMO not his check down ability or reliance on Marshall. As for the Turner call, I disagree. If you saw the first dwon play, it was obvious SD was resigned to let the half tick down. The big play by Turner changed all that, and if you ask me, if your a DC you play an honest defense. Prepare for both possibilities, but don't drop your LB's and secondary down deep and give up everything infront of you, especially with the run D the Broncos have been showing.


As far as Gold, I'm still not entirely convinced it's all on him; as I'm sure you're aware even really good pass rushers (say, Kenard Lang, Elvis Dumervil and Ebenezer Ekuban, just to pick some names out of a hat... ) can't get to the QB if their DTs don't draw double teams and/or collapse the pocket, and even if they DO most NFL QBs will just step up into that comfy pocket and zip a pass 30 yards down field to an open man. People complained last year that "well, gee, Champ, D-Will and Lynch can't cover everyone FOREVER; get to the QB!" but it's just as true now, and I think the problem is much the same: We only have ends, not DTs. Adams can help with that when he's on the field, and certainly two out of three of him, McKinley and Thomas are more effective than a dinged up Warren and Veal ( "veal" is the technical term for "a young calf beaten until soft" ), but we're still gonna need good DTs to have an effective pass rush, and without that guys are gonna get open. Certainly guys like Clark, Gates and Gonzales will; it's a question of when, not if.

I agree its not only on Gold. He should have had help over the top on a few of those plays, but as an LB you know that when you are not going to have help over the top, you do not get beat deep. You can always play the reciever and not the ball if he comes back on a dig or in/out route, but you get beat deep and theres nothing you can do to recover from that. I agree the DT's hold a lot of responsibility, but that still doesn't mean Gold isn't getting pushed around at the LOS. Its a team game, and lack of defensive production is on the unit as a whole, but certien players wil lcontribute to that and Gold has IMO.


Even saying THAT, I think Gold SHOULD have had safety help over the top, and was playing the correct position for a WLB; my biggest concern about our LBs, ironically, was the ability of D.J. and Webster to stay with TEs and backs in the short passing game, because Gold is the only one who does that consistently (D.J. has the ability, but he's got a LOT on his plate right now.... ) I mean, why wouldn't there be safety help on the deep ball; that's the bulk of a FS job, especially against a hydra like the Colts when possessed of the Leagues top passing D in the persons of Champ and Bly. I don't think Champ needs help with Harrison, Bly shouldn't need much with Wayne, and blitzing Mannings excellent line is death, so where else would the safeties be except making sure Clark doesn't go deep when Gold has him covered short? It's not like they have to cover Stokley or double up on the Colts new rookie. Actually, after looking him up on Wiki I feel better about Gold, whom we didn't draft nearly as long ago as I thought, but leave a couple gaping holes on a D and the rest of it will start to have problems, too, whether it's Al Wilson colliding with John Lynch to keep Willie Parker out of the end zone (and incidentally force a fumble), forcing Lynch to leave the game and Wilson to ultimately retire, or Champ Bailey pulling a muscle having to be one of the few sure tacklers or Ian Gold getting beat deep because he can't guess where a receivers going for ten seconds straight. Gimme a NT who DEMANDS double teams, even from the Colts and Pats, and a SLB just as likely to get double digit sacks as D.J., and I guarantee Gold will look a lot better; he'll probably have half a dozen or more picks. He's not gonna knock Jerome Bettis cold, but then, that's not really his job. ;)

I stick with what I posted above. This is a team sport. The lack of a real D on the field is on the team, but Gold knew the play calling. HE knew there wouldn;t be help oer the top. You don't get beat in those sitautions, or try you damndest not to. Gold undercut, and only after the TE got 3 yards past him did he swivel his hops and start trying to play catch up. Those receptions are on him just as much as it is on the coaching staff for putting him in man-on-man situations like that. I haven't like the zero cover choices by the coaching staff at times. I know we have a stelelr secondary, but that doesn;t mean you can sacrifice the deep ball all the time to help with run support. The front 7 is causing this entire D to break down, and Gold is a part of that, whether o nthe run or the pass. I agree on yoru evaluation of DT's, but your opinion on Gold falls completely outside of line with mine. His play speaks for itself, and I think that play is telling of an LB who has lost a step, remains undersized, and seems ok with losing at times (liek the big smile he had after giving up TD's and huge passes). Winners arn't happy in those situations, but Gold laughs them off like any other play. I hope he's gone next year....

One thing I don't understand is how you have such concrete ideas on this team when you yourelf have said only two Broncos games have been aired in Texas and you havn't seen any others. I've seen all but one (Jacksonville) and saw that on a replay later on, and my opinions have changed through the season seeing what I have. I am not saying I know it all, or even have all the answers, but if I'd only seen two games I think I wouldn't make any decisions on this team overall, as I didn't after week two.

lex
10-14-2007, 09:50 PM
I'd just love for the Broncos to get a hard-nosed, all out maniac at MLB. A guy like Goff would be nice. If he times well that's a bonus, but we really need to pick up on the mental edge when drafting players. Get a guy who has the instincts and the game smarts to play it effectively. Maybe DJ will really turn it on, maybe he won't but I'd rather have a guy like Goff at MIKE with DJ at WILL with someone else at SAM. That's probably give us our best chance to succeed. Speed is something we covet, but I hope we take a look at players like Goff who are game day beasts, who play fast on the field, but won't time fast.

I agree with this. This year should kind of be a lesson of how important it is to stop the run. I wish block shedding, play reading and tackling become the points of emphasis at MLB more than speed. Speed on the outside is ok provided theres a base level proficiency with tackling and block shedding.