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View Full Version : Why is are the special teams ignored?



Medford Bronco
10-08-2007, 05:42 PM
I am not saying some people have not brough this up

but our special teams (coverage units, not kicking) are truly just as bad as our run defense.
how many fumbles do we need on kickoff or punt returns to know that this needs to improve immensly:mad:

the fumble for a TD bascially made the game over in my mind. I though this game was going to be tough. (i was correct unfortunatley)

but a free TD against a hungry team= trouble

thoughts?

TXBRONC
10-08-2007, 05:47 PM
Med our special teams units were not ignored. Shanahan hired supposedly hired one of the best special teams coaches in the League and heck they've even went so far as to put some of the starters on special teams.

Medford Bronco
10-08-2007, 05:49 PM
Med our special teams units were not ignored. Shanahan hired supposedly hired one of the best special teams coaches in the League and heck they've even went so far as to put some of the starters on special teams.

I do not mean ignored by the coaching, but us when being critical

I think they are a huge reason for us losing.

the kick units are not good, and clearly the coaching in practice is not working or the players are not getting it I do not know :confused:

Medford Bronco
10-09-2007, 12:15 AM
**bump for exposure**

dogfish
10-09-2007, 12:21 AM
i haven't been igoring them-- i hammer the worthless bums almost every time i post!


they should be happy to be ignored, when what they deserve is to be beaten silly and locked in a closet. . . . :mad:

BigBroncLove
10-09-2007, 12:22 AM
I do not mean ignored by the coaching, but us when being critical

I think they are a huge reason for us losing.

the kick units are not good, and clearly the coaching in practice is not working or the players are not getting it I do not know :confused:

I think most people have complained about ST since last year. Deuce should still have his bump until we get a KRTD at BM (not sure haven;t checked) and as far as this season goes, many people (including me) have comlained about how our ST has still nto improved, even when certien people were kept specifically because they were supposed to be special team aces (Paul Smith for example, Andre Hall was also said to be a big ST contributor through TC and was kept partially for this reason).

I think most fans have talked about ST and how they constantly put us in a bad position. Whether it's fumbles :mad: bad field position, and giving up huge returns to the opposing team. Ugh.... I get angry just thinking about this phase of the game and the Broncos the last couple of years, and to me having bad special teams means you have terrible depth.... :sad:

sneakers
10-09-2007, 12:22 AM
I really liked the burst of that Martinez guy off the practice squad. Hopefully he will give us a little better starting field position.

BigBroncLove
10-09-2007, 12:23 AM
i haven't been igoring them-- i hammer the worthless bums almost every time i post!


they should be happy to be ignored, when what they deserve is to be beaten silly and locked in a closet. . . . :mad:

:lol: <---- That's all....

Nick
10-09-2007, 12:25 AM
It looks like martinez was brougt into the mix on that one punt return and selvin young lined up next to Clark whom shouls have been taken right right after that fumble.

It is sad that Champ has to save about 8 touchdowns with tackle just this year.

We might have the worst ST's in the league right now.

That and our pass rush is the biggest thing.

Which we do not have much depth what so ever if you say that about ST's

Watchthemiddle
10-09-2007, 02:17 AM
Is our special teams this bad because some of our defensive starters are on it?? :confused:

Something to think about.

Tned
10-09-2007, 02:25 AM
I am not saying some people have not brough this up

but our special teams (coverage units, not kicking) are truly just as bad as our run defense.
how many fumbles do we need on kickoff or punt returns to know that this needs to improve immensly:mad:

the fumble for a TD bascially made the game over in my mind. I though this game was going to be tough. (i was correct unfortunatley)

but a free TD against a hungry team= trouble

thoughts?

Honestly, I think they (special teams) have been so bad, for so long, that we have grown accustomed to short kickoff/punt returns, and horrible coverage on our kickoff and punts.

It's pretty bad that in weeks 2-4, it seemed like almost every tackle on kickoffs was made by Bailey.

dogfish
10-09-2007, 02:27 AM
Is our special teams this bad because some of our defensive starters are on it?? :confused:

Something to think about.

i doubt it, since they sucked just as bad last year with all backups. . . although, if you're angling for no more champ playing on the coverage teams, i'm highly in favor. . .

Watchthemiddle
10-09-2007, 02:39 AM
i doubt it, since they sucked just as bad last year with all backups. . . although, if you're angling for no more champ playing on the coverage teams, i'm highly in favor. . .

I say if he is going to play have him returning instead of saving tackles. Well, maybe not.

TXBRONC
10-09-2007, 08:51 PM
I think I understand why Champ and a few others are being used on special teams but I have never been in favor of having them out there.

Requiem / The Dagda
10-09-2007, 08:58 PM
Special Teams has been ignored, and the simple fact that we have starters who should never be playing special teams on that front is extremely discouraging, and just shows you how awful the group is.

O'Brien was originally given a couple selections to use at his discretion to focus on special teams during the draft on Day 2. We had several second day selections, but they were traded away land Moss and Thomas. So, O'Brien wasn't able to spend the choices he wanted on Special Teams players, and now we're suffering because of it because we couldn't get the help we so desperately needed.

Special Teams is always controversial at any level of football, whether it's high school - college or the NFL. Special Teams coaches for the most part have had to make due with players and make it work because the starting players are usually "untouchable" when it comes to that area. Having Bailey and others on the unit is just a bad idea, even though we're better with them out there.

Some people seem to think that Special Teams is easy to execute, but it really isn't. Only played it on the high school level, but it's really frustrating when people aren't blocking right or are doing poor on coverage units. I'll never forget the time that a rival team kicked the ball deep and they recovered it at our own ten yard line because people didn't know what the heck to do.

I agree with the assessment that Special Teams has been ignored. There wasn't a player from this last draft (besides Crowder playing it) that was a SOLE S/T pick, and you see quite a few teams using a selection or two in the draft just dedicated to that avenue. Hell, look at the Bears. That's exactly what Devin Hester was for.

dogfish
10-09-2007, 11:09 PM
Special Teams has been ignored, and the simple fact that we have starters who should never be playing special teams on that front is extremely discouraging, and just shows you how awful the group is.

O'Brien was originally given a couple selections to use at his discretion to focus on special teams during the draft on Day 2. We had several second day selections, but they were traded away land Moss and Thomas. So, O'Brien wasn't able to spend the choices he wanted on Special Teams players, and now we're suffering because of it because we couldn't get the help we so desperately needed.

Special Teams is always controversial at any level of football, whether it's high school - college or the NFL. Special Teams coaches for the most part have had to make due with players and make it work because the starting players are usually "untouchable" when it comes to that area. Having Bailey and others on the unit is just a bad idea, even though we're better with them out there.

Some people seem to think that Special Teams is easy to execute, but it really isn't. Only played it on the high school level, but it's really frustrating when people aren't blocking right or are doing poor on coverage units. I'll never forget the time that a rival team kicked the ball deep and they recovered it at our own ten yard line because people didn't know what the heck to do.

I agree with the assessment that Special Teams has been ignored. There wasn't a player from this last draft (besides Crowder playing it) that was a SOLE S/T pick, and you see quite a few teams using a selection or two in the draft just dedicated to that avenue. Hell, look at the Bears. That's exactly what Devin Hester was for.



you make some good points-- hopefully, with plenty of day two selections next year that is something that will be changing. . . we need to add depth at linebacker, safety, and probably wide receiver, and those positions are typically some of your biggest ST contributors. . .

Requiem / The Dagda
10-09-2007, 11:36 PM
you make some good points-- hopefully, with plenty of day two selections next year that is something that will be changing. . . we need to add depth at linebacker, safety, and probably wide receiver, and those positions are typically some of your biggest ST contributors. . .

That's something I was going to get into and address. We have two fourth-rounders, two fifth-rounders and two seventh-rounders. I'd probably spend one of those fourth rounders on a skill position player with return skills and probably two of them on linebackers or safeties who have starting experience at college and are quality special teams players. That's what I tried to mirror in my last mock.

This draft will have plenty of S, WR and LB well into the second day who can come in and play on special teams. Where it's likely we won't wind up with six selections on Day 2 (even though it looks like we'd need them) we should still be able to find a few quality special team players with that arsenal.

omac
10-09-2007, 11:36 PM
Then you got Miami who takes Ted Ginn for punt returns at the 9th possition in the 1st round .... when their critical need was at quarterback. :D

Clark is ranked 41 on kick returns with an average of 23.3 yards per return, while Hixon was ranked 44 with 22.8. Our offense has to work harder than most to get a touchdown.

Compare that to NE's Hobbs, ranked 5th, with 32 yards per return. They already have a powerful offense, and great field possition only makes them even better.

Ginn of Miami, btw, is ranked 26th with 25.3, so there's the risk of drafting a return guy.

Kubes has got some good ones with Wynn, 8th 31.2, Matthis, 15th 29.1, and Jacoby Jones looked real good before his injury. Houston's got a pretty solid team all around ... at least, before all the injuries.

OB
10-09-2007, 11:38 PM
I think I understand why Champ and a few others are being used on special teams but I have never been in favor of having them out there.

I 100% agree and I know some of the issues are limited roster spots and money but I just cringe everytime I see Champ or someone of his caliber out on a ST play - its just one more chance for them to get injured

I think, IMO, that the deaths of our two players has had a deeper effect on the team than we outsiders can realize - you can just feel that something is not right

Requiem / The Dagda
10-09-2007, 11:40 PM
Then you got Miami who takes Ted Ginn for punt returns at the 9th possition in the 1st round .... when their critical need was at quarterback. :D

Ginn had exceptional speed and good receiving skills to go along with his electric return game. He wasn't taken for just punt and kick returns. I'm still scratching my head at the selection, but to each his own.


Clark is ranked 41 on kick returns with an average of 23.3 yards per return, while Hixon was ranked 44 with 22.8. Our offense has to work harder than most to get a touchdown.

Compare that to NE's Hobbs, ranked 5th, with 32 yards per return. They already have a powerful offense, and great field possition only makes them even better.

Ginn of Miami, btw, is ranked 26th with 25.3, so there's the risk of drafting a return guy.

Kubes has got some good ones with Wynn, 8th 31.2, Matthis, 15th 29.1, and Jacoby Jones looked real good before his injury. Houston's got a pretty solid team all around ... at least, before all the injuries.

I think guys like Clark who have exceptional speed would do well if they actually had good blocking in front of them, however it seems like neither he or Hixon have the instincts necessary to succeed as a kick returner or be more than "average" in that department. Denver fans have an absolute reason to cry about their special teams, it's just horrendous.

We're not asking for Deven Hester, we're just asking for a guy who can get it past the 20 yard line on a consistent basis. I don't think that's asking too much. Execution needs to be improved though as well.

Nick
10-10-2007, 12:04 AM
Ginn had exceptional speed and good receiving skills to go along with his electric return game. He wasn't taken for just punt and kick returns. I'm still scratching my head at the selection, but to each his own.



Every one should have known he was going to have a difficult time seperating himself from deffenders. He is not going to be huge at wide receiver, ever. He might have some receptions here and there at WR when running with the 4th and the 5th but thats it. His receiving skill is more based on the college teams system. Hence all the receivers from that school.

I think he was taken just for kick returns and that was what his potential in the nfl only included.

He is no Jackson @ Cal. He is not a playmaker.

Watchthemiddle
10-10-2007, 12:31 AM
We need a kick/punt returner that is feared. Remember how we would actually fear kicking to Dante Hall and actually game plan around him?

I am sure teams fear Hester in the same way.

A good/great return man can change the scope of the game in a matter of seconds. And if teams choose to kick away from them...they tend to botch the punt, or kick the kickoff out of bounds...thus resulting in good field position.

BigBroncLove
10-10-2007, 12:33 AM
We need a kick/punt returner that is feared. Remember how we would actually fear kicking to Dante Hall and actually game plan around him?

I am sure teams fear Hester in the same way.

A good/great return man can change the scope of the game in a matter of seconds. And if teams choose to kick away from them...they tend to botch the punt, or kick the kickoff out of bounds...thus resulting in good field position.

And we have to face Hester this year :ahhhhh: I hate to think what he will do to this terrible ST unit. I hope the broncos squib kick it to everyone else but Hester when we play Chicago..... otherwise we could lose against the Bears on ST play alone. :shocked:

Requiem / The Dagda
10-10-2007, 12:36 AM
We need a kick/punt returner that is feared. Remember how we would actually fear kicking to Dante Hall and actually game plan around him?

I am sure teams fear Hester in the same way.

A good/great return man can change the scope of the game in a matter of seconds. And if teams choose to kick away from them...they tend to botch the punt, or kick the kickoff out of bounds...thus resulting in good field position.

The past is the past, but I know for a fact that the Broncos were extremely miffed when the Bears took Deven Hester four picks ahead of them in 2006. Denver was also really high on Jones-Drew who was picked right before us by the Jaguars. I'm fairly confident from what I heard at the time and what I knew that had either of those two been available, they'd of been picked over Scheffler. Talk about losing out on return game potential!

Watchthemiddle
10-10-2007, 12:36 AM
And we have to face Hester this year :ahhhhh: I hate to think what he will do to this terrible ST unit. I hope the broncos squib kick it to everyone else but Hester when we play Chicago..... otherwise we could lose against the Bears on ST play alone. :shocked:

Well with the way our offense scores, we might only kick off to him once. Either to start the game or after halftime.

BUT...that would mean we are punting to him all day too.

BigBroncLove
10-10-2007, 12:39 AM
Well with the way our offense scores, we might only kick off to him once. Either to start the game or after halftime.

BUT...that would mean we are punting to him all day too.

Speaking of punts, whatever happened to the coffin corner kick? why does every kicker try and kick it to be downed in the middle of the field anymore? I think it's an element to ST that has been missing from the NFL for sometime now, and those punters who can do it are a dying breed. I wish they'd bring it back, espeically here in Denver, because it's an element to football that is sorely missed by ST coaches, and would bring a lot of life to poor ST teams like ours with good punters....

Watchthemiddle
10-10-2007, 12:46 AM
Speaking of punts, whatever happened to the coffin corner kick? why does every kicker try and kick it to be downed in the middle of the field anymore? I think it's an element to ST that has been missing from the NFL for sometime now, and those punters who can do it are a dying breed. I wish they'd bring it back, espeically here in Denver, because it's an element to football that is sorely missed by ST coaches, and would bring a lot of life to poor ST teams like ours with good punters....

I don't think I have ever seen that punt out of Saurbrun. That is a finess punt and I don't think he has that in him. Its all or nothing with a BLAST with him.

Maybe he will just have to punt it out of the stadium to keep it away from Hester.

BigBroncLove
10-10-2007, 12:48 AM
I don't think I have ever seen that punt out of Saurbrun. That is a finess punt and I don't think he has that in him. Its all or nothing with a BLAST with him.

Maybe he will just have to punt it out of the stadium to keep it away from Hester.

I know Saurbrun may not be a punter that can do the coffin corner, but I am talking about the NFL as a whole. Basically no one does it anymore. It's an art lost in the history books. Something that the Broncos or any team should try and revive IMO....

For teams like our with a struggling ST unit, it would be extremely effective IMO.

lex
10-10-2007, 02:25 AM
Our special teams units look like there are 11 Ian Golds out there. Its keystone cops. I feel bad for the returners. Weve gone through how many? We should really go upgrade this through FA or lower Rd draft picks.

Medford Bronco
10-10-2007, 08:27 AM
Our special teams units look like there are 11 Ian Golds out there. Its keystone cops. I feel bad for the returners. Weve gone through how many? We should really go upgrade this through FA or lower Rd draft picks.

what ever happened to the Clevland guy we used to have that was
not that bad in Cleveland but struggled here due to no blocking

Quincy Morgan?

omac
10-10-2007, 12:30 PM
Ginn had exceptional speed and good receiving skills to go along with his electric return game. He wasn't taken for just punt and kick returns. I'm still scratching my head at the selection, but to each his own.

It's funny; during the preseason, we keep hearing about how well he's picking up the offense, how he's running the routes well, and how he's got good hands, then when the season comes, he's a non-factor in receiving stats. Either they don't play him, or they don't target him. It doesn't look like Cameron has a clear idea of what he's trying to build this team to be.


I think guys like Clark who have exceptional speed would do well if they actually had good blocking in front of them, however it seems like neither he or Hixon have the instincts necessary to succeed as a kick returner or be more than "average" in that department. Denver fans have an absolute reason to cry about their special teams, it's just horrendous.

We're not asking for Deven Hester, we're just asking for a guy who can get it past the 20 yard line on a consistent basis. I don't think that's asking too much. Execution needs to be improved though as well.

Poor kick returns is bad, but what I'm even more concerned about is kick return coverage. It seems that our opponents start out a lot near mid-field. That puts incredible pressure on the defense. I'm just hoping that Sauerbrun's able to kick it through the endzone a whole lot, so our defense can "try" to make the opponent work for at least 80 yards instead of just 60 or less.

BigBroncLove
10-10-2007, 01:03 PM
what ever happened to the Clevland guy we used to have that was
not that bad in Cleveland but struggled here due to no blocking

Quincy Morgan?

Morgan was a originally a Pittsburgh Steeler. Morgan also added a little spark to the ST last year and was our best returner (which while a compliment isn't saying much :lol: )