will cutler ride on the bronco or will he get bucked off...voive your thought..

[broncos9697]

culter is or was to be denver;s sweet spot,the next elway..Is this still true he played what the last 5 games last year and did a all-right job,this year not so much he's put the numbers up yes in yards and INT's but not so much in td's....
Will the bronco's upstairs ''big men'' let him ride a few years to see if he produces or will he be free for grabs soon..

[Mike]

Losses must take away people's intelligence. :rolleyes:

[broncos9697]

Losses must take away people's intelligence. :rolleyes:

you think so...
I dont know..

[Medford Bronco]

culter is or was to be denver;s sweet spot,the next elway..Is this still true he played what the last 5 games last year and did a all-right job,this year not so much he's put the numbers up yes in yards and INT's but not so much in td's....
Will the bronco's upstairs ''big men'' let him ride a few years to see if he produces or will he be free for grabs soon..

I think he gets this year and next and if not enough improvment then a veteran may come in

He clearly needs to play better.

in his 10 NFL starts he has only had one game without a pick I believe.

that is sad.

all the offense is bad, not just Cutler however.

[broncos9697]

I think he gets this year and next and if not enough improvment then a veteran may come in

He clearly needs to play better.

in his 10 NFL starts he has only had one game without a pick I believe.

that is sad.

all the offense is bad, not just Cutler however.

except henry was the leading rusher going into yesterday's game...
but we all know he might be a bust in the nfl now...
what happened to our team we need some bid adjustments

[Skywalker]

culter is or was to be denver;s sweet spot,the next elway..Is this still true he played what the last 5 games last year and did a all-right job,this year not so much he's put the numbers up yes in yards and INT's but not so much in td's....
Will the bronco's upstairs ''big men'' let him ride a few years to see if he produces or will he be free for grabs soon..

What I don't get is why you even think the coaches are thinking of getting rid of a SECOND YEAR QB who's only played 10 games...

Maybe this will be a big learning year for Cutler and we won't do as well as everyone expects (it looks like it). I personally really like what I've seen out of him so far, for a young QB. Along with Brandon Marshall. :salute:

[dogfish]

Losses must take away people's intelligence. :rolleyes:

it's frustrating, isn't it? in today's instant gratification world, everyone is supposed to be a superstar right away-- nevermind that even a legend like elway wasn't, and he went on to have a pretty okay career. . . people think a second-year QB is going to come in and put the team on his back-- in a game where the running game isn't working, his top receiver is out, his other receivers are fumbling balls in the red zone, the "special" teams are giving away field position and touchdowns like candy on halloween, the efense is letting a backup RB put up 150 rushing yards on ten carries and making a previously struggling QB look like dan marino-- and carry them to victory? why is he expected to play well when freakin' NOBODY ELSE on the team is. . . ?? just because he's the quarterback, has been quite correctly touted for his high talent level, and was drafted in the first round?

:confused:


IMO those expectations are wildly unrealistic-- if that's what they're looking for, they're bound to be disappointed. . .


*shrugs*



oh well, not like anything we say is going to change anyone's mind. . . people are pissed off, and they feel that they have to blame someone. . .

whatever makes ya feel better about it, i guess. . . cutler certainly isn't playing perfectly, but i myself am happier with him than i am with a lot of other aspects of the team. . . he showed in the games against buffalo and oakland that he's capable of leading game-winning drives, but i think expecting him to match a potent offense score for score when none of his own weapons are doing much is pretty far-fetched-- JMO. . .

[TXBRONC]

it's frustrating, isn't it? in today's instant gratification world, everyone is supposed to be a superstar right away-- nevermind that even a legend like elway wasn't, and he went on to have a pretty okay career. . . people think a second-year QB is going to come in and put the team on his back-- in a game where the running game isn't working, his top receiver is out, his other receivers are fumbling balls in the red zone, the "special" teams are giving away field position and touchdowns like candy on halloween, the efense is letting a backup RB put up 150 rushing yards on ten carries and making a previously struggling QB look like dan marino-- and carry them to victory? why is he expected to play well when freakin' NOBODY ELSE on the team is. . . ?? just because he's the quarterback, has been quite correctly touted for his high talent level, and was drafted in the first round?

:confused:


IMO those expectations are wildly unrealistic-- if that's what they're looking for, they're bound to be disappointed. . .


*shrugs*



oh well, not like anything we say is going to change anyone's mind. . . people are pissed off, and they feel that they have to blame someone. . .

whatever makes ya feel better about it, i guess. . . cutler certainly isn't playing perfectly, but i myself am happier with him than i am with a lot of other aspects of the team. . . he showed in the games against buffalo and oakland that he's capable of leading game-winning drives, but i think expecting him to match a potent offense score for score when none of his own weapons are doing much is pretty far-fetched-- JMO. . .

Bottom line its up to Shanahan to decide if Jay is a bust. I may be going out on a limb but I think Shanahan will give him more than one season.

[Skinny]

:ahhhhh: This is like 1983 all over again . . .

[arapaho2]

I think he gets this year and next and if not enough improvment then a veteran may come in

He clearly needs to play better.

in his 10 NFL starts he has only had one game without a pick I believe.

that is sad.

all the offense is bad, not just Cutler however.



you are so off base its almost funny,, i find it weird how people keep bringing up his 9 straight games with a pick, yet leave out the 9 staight games with TD pass, or the first guy to ever throw multiple tds in his first four games

as for him playing better:rant:

he has played ten games as a professional all with a defense softer then warm butter and a non existant return game, i believe in his first ten games the broncos have ranked near last in average starting position, clearly not things that would assist a virtual rookie qb in his first games

yet despite all that he has a career qb rateing of 84%...as a rookie!!
he has 13 TDs which get unmentioned as opposed to his frequantly stated 11 ints, he also has an impressive 61.9 % completion rate...stack that up against manning, elway, farve or even plummer and se how he compares to the great ones

i find it amazing how idiotic some plummer supporters are

in plummers last eleven games he had an impressive 68.8 qb rateing...11 tds and 13 ints and a 55.2 % completion rate

based on that cutler does in fact give us the best chance to win...his play isnt the downfall of the broncos

i can look at the 27.6 points per game the defense has allowed in cutlers first ten games as a real reason

cutlers play has been one of the few shineing things on this team

[TXBRONC]

:ahhhhh: This is like 1983 all over again . . .

1983 we made the playoffs as a wild card so if that's case I'll take that. Right now it feels more like 1993 when Phillips was the head coach. Before the beginning of that season we were seen as Super Bowl contenders but ended only winning five games.

[Medford Bronco]

:ahhhhh: This is like 1983 all over again . . .

that is okay, We made the playoffs and then in 1984 Elway got it :salute:

I like Cutler but he does need to stop the dumb pick per game.
Jason Campbell is just as raw for Washington and done a much better job taking care of the ball. Plz dont tell me that Wash is a lot better, yes they are but this is supposed to be a "great" offense and you cant turn it over 10 straight games with a pick. That has to stop sometime I hope :couch:

I am not jumping the gun. I am just disappointed that is all.
If we could stop someone and give Cutler a short field once in a while then
maybe he would do better.

still ranting, sorry plz dont flame me

[Krugan]

All I am going to say about this is, the kid needs to stop trusting just his arm strength. Throwing off your back foot is inviting an INT. Saw it on the deep ball to Marshall yesterday late in the game.

The wind wasnt even half the problem there.

[Watchthemiddle]

you are so off base its almost funny,, i find it weird how people keep bringing up his 9 straight games with a pick, yet leave out the 9 staight games with TD pass, or the first guy to ever throw multiple tds in his first four games

as for him playing better:rant:

he has played ten games as a professional all with a defense softer then warm butter and a non existant return game, i believe in his first ten games the broncos have ranked near last in average starting position, clearly not things that would assist a virtual rookie qb in his first games

yet despite all that he has a career qb rateing of 84%...as a rookie!!
he has 13 TDs which get unmentioned as opposed to his frequantly stated 11 ints, he also has an impressive 61.9 % completion rate...stack that up against manning, elway, farve or even plummer and se how he compares to the great ones

i find it amazing how idiotic some plummer supporters are

in plummers last eleven games he had an impressive 68.8 qb rateing...11 tds and 13 ints and a 55.2 % completion rate

based on that cutler does in fact give us the best chance to win...his play isnt the downfall of the broncos

i can look at the 27.6 points per game the defense has allowed in cutlers first ten games as a real reason

cutlers play has been one of the few shineing things on this team

Whats our record as a TEAM with him as the starter?

How come he isn't making everyone around him better? Isn't that what we were told last year and still told today about him when he came in? He is ready to play, he gives us the best chance to win now. Well so far I haven't seen it.

ITs because of comments like those that were made by many on here and in the media and all of the talent around him that the expectations are high of him. Where is the creative play calling we are supposed to have because he is now the QB? It appears its still dumbed down. Its vanilla, its boring, and it stalls at the 20.

Maybe someday we will see it

[East Coast Fan]

I think that he will be good-very good. Just needs more time to learn and gain experience. If Scheffler can stay out there with him it will help him vastly, since they really click. And Walker needs to be out there with him.

[BigBroncLove]

it's frustrating, isn't it? in today's instant gratification world, everyone is supposed to be a superstar right away-- nevermind that even a legend like elway wasn't, and he went on to have a pretty okay career. . . people think a second-year QB is going to come in and put the team on his back-- in a game where the running game isn't working, his top receiver is out, his other receivers are fumbling balls in the red zone, the "special" teams are giving away field position and touchdowns like candy on halloween, the efense is letting a backup RB put up 150 rushing yards on ten carries and making a previously struggling QB look like dan marino-- and carry them to victory? why is he expected to play well when freakin' NOBODY ELSE on the team is. . . ?? just because he's the quarterback, has been quite correctly touted for his high talent level, and was drafted in the first round?

:confused:


IMO those expectations are wildly unrealistic-- if that's what they're looking for, they're bound to be disappointed. . .


*shrugs*



oh well, not like anything we say is going to change anyone's mind. . . people are pissed off, and they feel that they have to blame someone. . .

whatever makes ya feel better about it, i guess. . . cutler certainly isn't playing perfectly, but i myself am happier with him than i am with a lot of other aspects of the team. . . he showed in the games against buffalo and oakland that he's capable of leading game-winning drives, but i think expecting him to match a potent offense score for score when none of his own weapons are doing much is pretty far-fetched-- JMO. . .

Well said :clap2: don't knwo if I can say it any better myself. The kid has talent beyond what I have seen in a long itme (the obvious Elway remark comes in here). With so much talent, so much drive to better his game, and the attitude of a winner that I belive Cutler has, I can't imagine this organiation throwing that away because of a few lost games. We stuck by Griese, let me repeat that, Griese! for three years. He doesn't have half the talent Cutler has.

What I hope is that Cutler doesn't become displeased with this organization, not the other way around :D .

[silkamilkamonico]

Cutler signed a what, 5 years contract?

He will be the starter throughout the tenure of his contract, and then the decision will likely be made, and probably to keep him if he continues to progress.

This thread is a joke.

If this thread had any validity to it, John Elway would have been out of Denver by his 4th year.

What a joke.

[Watchthemiddle]

Cutler signed a what, 5 years contract?

He will be the starter throughout the tenure of his contract, and then the decision will likely be made, and probably to keep him if he continues to progress.

This thread is a joke.

If this thread had any validity to it, John Elway would have been out of Denver by his 4th year.

What a joke.

Elway made the Super Bowl his 4th year in 86. THen went again in 87, then again in 89.

[TXBRONC]

Elway made the Super Bowl his 4th year in 86. THen went again in 87, then again in 89.

I think he's meaning if Elway where here today as a 2nd year player.

[silkamilkamonico]

I think he's meaning if Elway where hear today as a 2nd year player.

That's what I meant. He was always a great talent, but it took him a few years to put it all together.

One possibly cannot think that Cutler, or any other QB, is going to have it all figured out at the QB position by the time he's 25.

[Watchthemiddle]

That's what I meant. He was always a great talent, but it took him a few years to put it all together.

One possibly cannot think that Cutler, or any other QB, is going to have it all figured out at the QB position by the time he's 25.

I could name a few in the NFL right now that had it figured out by the age of 25 and some who actually won a SB.

Maybe thats our problem. We hear Cutler is the answer, he is the real deal, he will improve this team and we think he will be the next Brady or Roth.....heck even a Vince YOung.

I will probably compare Cutler to Young before I compare him to Brady or Roth. Young, 10-6 through his first 16 games as a starter with inferior talent. Lets see where Cutler is. so far through 10 he is 4-6. He will need to run off 6 in a row to match Young.

[silkamilkamonico]

I could name a few in the NFL right now that had it figured out by the age of 25 and some who actually won a SB.

Name them.

[In-com-plete]

You can't say "Cutler gives us the best chance to win". Then start losing and not expect backlash/questions.

You can't say "We can open up the playbook with Cutler". Then run the same damn plays and not expect backlash/questions.

But hey, lets talk about QB ratings and TD/Int ratio's and yards/game instead of wins and losses. Even though the bottom $%#@ing line is W's and L's.

4-6. Going 2-3 and out of the playoffs last season. Sitting at 2-3, tied for last in what looks to be the weakest division in football, and the worst start for us since '99.

Yet supposedly we're "reloading" and "have a better chance to win".

Cutler's got 3 years after this one. If we don't make it to atleast the AFCCG before then....he'll get "bucked off".

[silkamilkamonico]

As for Vince Young, there's a reason why he went #4, and not #11.

[Mike]

I could name a few in the NFL right now that had it figured out by the age of 25 and some who actually won a SB.

Maybe thats our problem. We hear Cutler is the answer, he is the real deal, he will improve this team and we think he will be the next Brady or Roth.....heck even a Vince YOung.

I will probably compare Cutler to Young before I compare him to Brady or Roth. Young, 10-6 through his first 16 games as a starter with inferior talent. Lets see where Cutler is. so far through 10 he is 4-6. He will need to run off 6 in a row to match Young.

Sorry, WTM. Vince Young is supported by a dang good defense. Make no mistake, the Titans win because of their defense. Vince Young is good, but his defense helps get the wins.

The only QB that can win without a defense is Peyton Manning.

Give the kid time. Good grief, what is wrong with you people? :rolleyes:

[silkamilkamonico]

The only QB that can win without a defense is Peyton Manning.



Yes, and he most certainly did NOT have it figured out by the time hw as 25.

[TXBRONC]

I could name a few in the NFL right now that had it figured out by the age of 25 and some who actually won a SB.

Maybe thats our problem. We hear Cutler is the answer, he is the real deal, he will improve this team and we think he will be the next Brady or Roth.....heck even a Vince YOung.

I will probably compare Cutler to Young before I compare him to Brady or Roth. Young, 10-6 through his first 16 games as a starter with inferior talent. Lets see where Cutler is. so far through 10 he is 4-6. He will need to run off 6 in a row to match Young.

I don't think that with a qb rationg of 67.2 that Vince Young has figured it out.

[SBboundBRONCOS]

yeah this isnt baseball, a QB doesnt have as much to do with a win or a loss than does a pitcher (unless that QB is Manning), therefore win lose records to judge QBs are completely false and innacurate, especially the way you guys are pointing them out, you make vince young seem like the best thing since sliced bread.his defense is very stout, and special teams get him good field position, and that goes a long with a great running game that actually puts points on the board

im so sick of this vince young is a great QB crap

[topscribe]

:ahhhhh: This is like 1983 all over again . . .

Thank you. I don't understand some people. In all actuality, Cutler isn't even
a 2nd year QB by playing time. That would be a QB with at least 16 games
under his belt. Cutler has seven more weeks to reach even that level. What
do y'all expect, Unitas in his prime?

I might add that Elway threw 22 INTs in his first year. That's well over one a game.

Oh yes, and people wanted to dump Elway in his first couple years, too.
Too bad the Broncos didn't, isn't it? :coffee:

-----

[Uncle Buck]

it's frustrating, isn't it? in today's instant gratification world, everyone is supposed to be a superstar right away-- nevermind that even a legend like elway wasn't, and he went on to have a pretty okay career. . . people think a second-year QB is going to come in and put the team on his back-- in a game where the running game isn't working, his top receiver is out, his other receivers are fumbling balls in the red zone, the "special" teams are giving away field position and touchdowns like candy on halloween, the efense is letting a backup RB put up 150 rushing yards on ten carries and making a previously struggling QB look like dan marino-- and carry them to victory? why is he expected to play well when freakin' NOBODY ELSE on the team is. . . ?? just because he's the quarterback, has been quite correctly touted for his high talent level, and was drafted in the first round?

:confused:


IMO those expectations are wildly unrealistic-- if that's what they're looking for, they're bound to be disappointed. . .


*shrugs*



oh well, not like anything we say is going to change anyone's mind. . . people are pissed off, and they feel that they have to blame someone. . .

whatever makes ya feel better about it, i guess. . . cutler certainly isn't playing perfectly, but i myself am happier with him than i am with a lot of other aspects of the team. . . he showed in the games against buffalo and oakland that he's capable of leading game-winning drives, but i think expecting him to match a potent offense score for score when none of his own weapons are doing much is pretty far-fetched-- JMO. . .

EXACTLY! There is nothing wrong with Cutler that a better team around him would not cure. We can survive one interception per game—at least he’s doing some good things to offset a few blunders. What we CAN’T survive is everyone else on the team taking turns with these SNAFU’s: fumbles; dropped passes; critical penalties in the red zone, etc. Then add the inability for the D to get the other team off the field (before scoring, that is), and it’s a wonder we are at 2 –3.

Back to Cutler, as we speak, his QB rating is 79.9, not far behind Eli Manning’s 82.7 and Phillip Rivers’ 85.8. Build a team around Jay, and I would not be surprised to see him in the high 90’s (or better) by his second full season. Given what he has to work with right now, his QB rating is quite acceptable. Anyone who would even think of trading him at this point of his game must be on crack! :tsk:

[Watchthemiddle]

I don't think that with a qb rationg of 67.2 that Vince Young has figured it out.

He sure does know how to win and has always known how to. Thats figuring it out to me. Thats what its all about. Like In-com-plete said...stats don't mean squat. Its all about the W.

[Medford Bronco]

Thank you. I don't understand some people. In all actuality, Cutler isn't even
a 2nd year QB by playing time. That would be a QB with at least 16 games
under his belt. Cutler has seven more weeks to reach even that level. What
do y'all expect, Unitas in his prime?

I might add that Elway threw 22 INTs in his first year. That's well over one a game.

Oh yes, and people wanted to dump Elway in his first couple years, too.
Too bad the Broncos didn't, isn't it? :coffee:

-----

you mean 23 in his 3rd year. His rookie year he threw 14 his rookie year

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/ElwaJo00.htm

Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1983 den | 11 | 123 259 47.5 1663 6.4 7 14 | 28 146 1 |
| 1984 den | 15 | 214 380 56.3 2598 6.8 18 15 | 56 237 1 |
| 1985 den | 16 | 327 605 54.0 3891 6.4 22 23 | 51 253 0 |
| 1986 den | 16 | 280 504 55.6 3485 6.9 19 13 | 52 257 1 |
| 1987 den | 12 | 224 410 54.6 3198 7.8 19 12 | 66 304 4 |
| 1988 den | 15 | 274 496 55.2 3309 6.7 17 19 | 54 234 1 |
| 1989 den | 15 | 223 416 53.6 3051 7.3 18 18 | 48 244 3 |
| 1990 den | 16 | 294 502 58.6 3526 7.0 15 14 | 50 258 3 |
| 1991 den | 16 | 242 451 53.7 3253 7.2 13 12 | 55 255 6 |
| 1992 den | 12 | 174 316 55.1 2242 7.1 10 17 | 34 94 2 |
| 1993 den | 16 | 348 551 63.2 4030 7.3 25 10 | 44 153 0 |
| 1994 den | 14 | 307 494 62.1 3490 7.1 16 10 | 58 235 4 |
| 1995 den | 16 | 316 542 58.3 3970 7.3 26 14 | 41 176 1 |
| 1996 den | 15 | 287 466 61.6 3328 7.1 26 14 | 50 249 4 |
| 1997 den | 16 | 280 502 55.8 3635 7.2 27 11 | 50 218 1 |
| 1998 den | 13 | 210 356 59.0 2806 7.9 22 10 | 37 94 1 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| TOTAL | 234 | 4123 7250 56.9 51475 7.1 300 226 | 774 3407 33 |

[topscribe]

I could name a few in the NFL right now that had it figured out by the age of 25 and some who actually won a SB.

Maybe thats our problem. We hear Cutler is the answer, he is the real deal, he will improve this team and we think he will be the next Brady or Roth.....heck even a Vince YOung.

I will probably compare Cutler to Young before I compare him to Brady or Roth. Young, 10-6 through his first 16 games as a starter with inferior talent. Lets see where Cutler is. so far through 10 he is 4-6. He will need to run off 6 in a row to match Young.



Comparing W-L records between two players, even quarterbacks, is absurd.
What? You think they're playing tennis? Or golf? Or chess? In an NFL game,
45 players suit up. The game is decided by the accumulation of 90 players
and 15-20 coaches. It is also determined by the competition, whom they
have played. A lot of factors go into the win or loss.

You are right about one thing, though. Cutler didn't do a good job of tackling
LT or Turner.

Oh wait . . .

-----

[Watchthemiddle]

Name them.

I already did. Brady, Roth, and Vince is figuring out how to win in the NFL before age 25.

:coffee:

[Watchthemiddle]

Comparing W-L records between two players, even quarterbacks, is absurd.
What? You think they're playing tennis? Or golf? Or chess? In an NFL game,
45 players suit up. The game is decided by the accumulation of 90 players
and 15-20 coaches. It is also determined by the competition, whom they
have played. A lot of factors go into the win or loss.

You are right about one thing, though. Cutler didn't do a good job of tackling
LT or Turner.

Oh wait . . .

-----

Oh ....i see you have changed your stance on the QB W/L record.

:rolleyes:

What was one of the first things I asked a few posts ago? What is the TEAMS record with Cutler as the starter? But you and I both know that the QB will always be remembered by his record and super bowls. Thats a fact and no one can deny it.

[topscribe]

you mean 23 in his 3rd year. His rookie year he threw 14 his rookie year

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/ElwaJo00.htm

Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1983 den | 11 | 123 259 47.5 1663 6.4 7 14 | 28 146 1 |
| 1984 den | 15 | 214 380 56.3 2598 6.8 18 15 | 56 237 1 |
| 1985 den | 16 | 327 605 54.0 3891 6.4 22 23 | 51 253 0 |
| 1986 den | 16 | 280 504 55.6 3485 6.9 19 13 | 52 257 1 |
| 1987 den | 12 | 224 410 54.6 3198 7.8 19 12 | 66 304 4 |
| 1988 den | 15 | 274 496 55.2 3309 6.7 17 19 | 54 234 1 |
| 1989 den | 15 | 223 416 53.6 3051 7.3 18 18 | 48 244 3 |
| 1990 den | 16 | 294 502 58.6 3526 7.0 15 14 | 50 258 3 |
| 1991 den | 16 | 242 451 53.7 3253 7.2 13 12 | 55 255 6 |
| 1992 den | 12 | 174 316 55.1 2242 7.1 10 17 | 34 94 2 |
| 1993 den | 16 | 348 551 63.2 4030 7.3 25 10 | 44 153 0 |
| 1994 den | 14 | 307 494 62.1 3490 7.1 16 10 | 58 235 4 |
| 1995 den | 16 | 316 542 58.3 3970 7.3 26 14 | 41 176 1 |
| 1996 den | 15 | 287 466 61.6 3328 7.1 26 14 | 50 249 4 |
| 1997 den | 16 | 280 502 55.8 3635 7.2 27 11 | 50 218 1 |
| 1998 den | 13 | 210 356 59.0 2806 7.9 22 10 | 37 94 1 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| TOTAL | 234 | 4123 7250 56.9 51475 7.1 300 226 | 774 3407 33 |

That was the source I went to. I just looked at the wrong year, and at the
TDs instead of the INTs, I guess. I'm pretty tired right now.

-----

[TXBRONC]

He sure does know how to win and has always known how to. Thats figuring it out to me. Thats what its all about. Like In-com-plete said...stats don't mean squat. Its all about the W.

Ok but I know I've seen enough of the NFL that playing way his has played wont carry him very far.

[Simple Jaded]

...Cut his sorry ass!!!


Ridiculous........................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................

[topscribe]

Oh ....i see you have changed your stance on the QB W/L record.

:rolleyes:

What was one of the first things I asked a few posts ago? What is the TEAMS record with Cutler as the starter? But you and I both know that the QB will always be remembered by his record and super bowls. Thats a fact and no one can deny it.

Instead of making a vague allusion, would you care to cite the post in which
you saw that? Has NEVER been my stance. I have NEVER cited a QB's W-L
record to compare him to any other QB.

Please, if you refer to my posting, do it correctly. Remember the motto I
used to have under my screen name: "Just tell me the truth"?


As I said, I don't understand some people . . .


-----

[TXBRONC]

...Cut his sorry ass!!!


Ridiculous........................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................

Oh go jump off a cliff. ;)

[Watchthemiddle]

Instead of making a vague allusion, would you care to cite the post in which
you saw that? Has NEVER been my stance. I have NEVER cited a QB's W-L
record to compare him to any other QB.

Please, if you refer to my posting, do it correctly. Remember the motto I
used to have under my screen name: "Just tell me the truth"?

-----

Well, you were a strong supporter of the previous QB for the Broncos and loved to throw around his record as a starter. I remember because I was the same way. I can't show you exact quotes because I can't pull them up from the other board..:laugh:

[topscribe]

Well, you were a strong supporter of the previous QB for the Broncos and loved to throw around his record as a starter. I remember because I was the same way. I can't show you exact quotes because I can't pull them up from the other board..:laugh:

That is not the truth. I VEHEMENTLY argued AGAINST the W-L record in comparing QB.

I thought you were honest.

Guess not . . . :coffee:

-----

[Simple Jaded]

Oh go jump off a cliff. ;)



It's better than enduring Broncos fans complete unraveling. :beer:...

[Watchthemiddle]

Listen, I am not here to say get rid of Cutler. That has never been my stance. If anyone can find a post of mine that says that go ahead and be my guest. What I will do is hold him accountable the same way ALL QB's are held accountable in this league to find ways to win and lead their teams.

All I am saying is he has not lived up to the billing of what EVERYONE was hyping when he was named the starter last year when we were 7-4..only to end 9-7 and start this year 2-3.

Defense aside, our offense is just as pathetic. WHo is the leader of the offense?

We are averaging 15 ppg. WHAT??? :ahhhhh:

Here is our drives against SD...

Punt, fumble ( special teams ), fumble, punt, FIELD GOAL, INT, Punt, Downs, Downs, Downs.

Thats sad. :tsk:

[Watchthemiddle]

That is not the truth. I thought you were honest.

Guess not . . . :coffee:

-----

Whatever Top.

I am not going to get into it with you. :rolleyes:

[Simple Jaded]

I could name a few in the NFL right now that had it figured out by the age of 25 and some who actually won a SB.

Maybe thats our problem. We hear Cutler is the answer, he is the real deal, he will improve this team and we think he will be the next Brady or Roth.....heck even a Vince YOung.

I will probably compare Cutler to Young before I compare him to Brady or Roth. Young, 10-6 through his first 16 games as a starter with inferior talent. Lets see where Cutler is. so far through 10 he is 4-6. He will need to run off 6 in a row to match Young.


You can have Young if I get Tennessee's defense.....

[TXBRONC]

It's better than enduring Broncos fans complete unraveling. :beer:...

:laugh: I suppose so.

[topscribe]

Whatever Top.

I am not going to get into it with you. :rolleyes:

Well I would hope not. Because I know what I did and did not do over there
and everywhere else in my life. So I would suggest you do not get into it
with me. My integrity in what I say is a major, major thing with me.

-----

[topscribe]

Well I would hope not. Because I know what I did and did not do over there
and everywhere else in my life. So I would suggest you do not get into it
with me. My integrity in what I say is a major, major thing with me.

-----

Just to clarify: I did point out that Jake "helped the team" to three playoff
seasons. That kind of thing. But when it came to the W-L record being a
factor in the argument, I actually called out the anti-Jake people when they
did that. And I finally got Mtnman to agree with me not to consider that in
our arguments.

But when I am the recipient of the equivalent of "you lied," it gets me a bit
fired up. I am a lot of things, I'll admit, but I do my damnedest not to be a
liar. I came from the part of the country where a handshake was a written
contract, where I saw some bloody fistfights over a man being called a liar.

-----

[Watchthemiddle]

Just to clarify: I did point out that Jake "helped the team" to three playoff
seasons. That kind of thing. But when it came to the W-L record being a
factor in the argument, I actually called out the anti-Jake people when they
did that. And I finally got Mtnman to agree with me not to consider that in
our arguments.

But when I am the recipient of the equivalent of "you lied," it gets me a bit
fired up. I am a lot of things, I'll admit, but I do my damnedest not to be a
liar. I came from the part of the country where a handshake was a written
contract, where I saw some bloody fistfights over a man being called a liar.

-----

Oh, so now I called you a liar? Where is that in my post? You even put quotes around it. Who is putting words into whose mouth?

Also, the anti-Jake NEVER brought up Jakes W/L record because that was the ONE area where he has success at. They could never use that to bolster their opinion or else they would get shot down quick unless it had to do with playoff record. We would bring up his record as a starter, and they would be quick to say 1-4 or whatever in the playoffs. Thats the only time.

And this Mr. Integrity stuff can get old. Some of us on here know we don't know everything and are not afraid to admit that. Thats integrity. Walking around like you know everything when you don't is not integrity.

Saying things like sometimes I just don't understand some people is also not integrity. Trying to belittle others...nope, not integrity.

:coffee:

[Uncle Buck]

Listen, I am not here to say get rid of Cutler. That has never been my stance. If anyone can find a post of mine that says that go ahead and be my guest. What I will do is hold him accountable the same way ALL QB's are held accountable in this league to find ways to win and lead their teams.

All I am saying is he has not lived up to the billing of what EVERYONE was hyping when he was named the starter last year when we were 7-4..only to end 9-7 and start this year 2-3.

Defense aside, our offense is just as pathetic. WHo is the leader of the offense?

We are averaging 15 ppg. WHAT??? :ahhhhh:

Here is our drives against SD...

Punt, fumble ( special teams ), fumble, punt, FIELD GOAL, INT, Punt, Downs, Downs, Downs.

Thats sad. :tsk:

I'm not one who would accuse you of any sort of "Cut Cutler" movement, WTM. But I do have a counterpoint on a couple of points you made.

The QB is the team leader of the Offense right up until after the snap and the ball is either launched or handed off. Beyond that, it's in the hands of the players--execution. And the execution has been piss poor, as we all know.

I agree with your summary of the game: "Punt, fumble ( special teams ), fumble, punt, FIELD GOAL, INT, Punt, Downs, Downs, Downs." Even without the Defense we are accustomed to, the game would have been much closer without the above series of blunders. On three key turnovers, we not only subtracted 14 points from our side of the scoreboard, but ADDED 17 points to theirs!

So, without these key effup's, the final score would have been more like 24 - 17... and we would have been withing RANGE into the 4th quarter! And I don't have to tell any seasoned fan here, that being just a possession or two down makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE in the way you play!

Now, had we had the old defense back, they would not have capitalized on every one of our turnovers...

And it would have been just another routine W at home. <searching for a "tearing-your-hair-out" icon...>

[topscribe]

Oh, so now I called you a liar? Where is that in my post? You even put quotes around it. Who is putting words into whose mouth?

Also, the anti-Jake NEVER brought up Jakes W/L record because that was the ONE area where he has success at. They could never use that to bolster their opinion or else they would get shot down quick unless it had to do with playoff record. We would bring up his record as a starter, and they would be quick to say 1-4 or whatever in the playoffs. Thats the only time.

And this Mr. Integrity stuff can get old. Some of us on here know we don't know everything and are not afraid to admit that. Thats integrity. Walking around like you know everything when you don't is not integrity.

Saying things like sometimes I just don't understand some people is also not integrity. Trying to belittle others...nope, not integrity.

:coffee:

WTM, the anti-Jake crowd did indeed bring up Jake's W-L record. Take a
look at the Cardinals when he was there. They LOVED that. When I say
Mtnman and I had an agreement, you doubt my word?

When one contradicts what I said I did and did not do, that is saying that
what I said was a lie. One who lies is a liar. So when I say I did not do
something, and you say oh yes you did, you just called me a liar.

And I don't know what your calling me a know-it-all now has to do with any
part of the conversation. Now you are getting into personal attack. Better
look under my screen name. It is my job not to tolerate ANY personal
attacks.

And I don't understand some people . . .

And thank you for helping me to hijack this thread. Now back to topic.

As I said originally, Cutler's W-L record is not a good measuring stick in
judging him as a de facto first-year QB.

-----

[DenBronx]

the odd thing is cutler seemed more settled last year than this year....yet he has more weapons.

i dont think a guy like ramsey is a good mentor for cutler.....warner would have done awesome as a backup here. he's constantly in the ears of leinart on the sidelines, helping and mentoring him each play. ramsey on the other hand has nothing in his arsenal to mentor the young buck about.

[topscribe]

the odd thing is cutler seemed more settled last year than this year....yet he has more weapons.

i dont think a guy like ramsey is a good mentor for cutler.....warner would have done awesome as a backup here. he's constantly in the ears of leinart on the sidelines, helping and mentoring him each play. ramsey on the other hand has nothing in his arsenal to mentor the young buck about.

Oh man, I would love to have Warner here. That guy is a football encyclopedia!

I'll tell you another thing: Isn't Drew Bledsoe a free agent?

Just a thought . . .

-----

[DenBronx]

Oh man, I would love to have Warner here. That guy is a football encyclopedia!

I'll tell you another thing: Isn't Drew Bledsoe a free agent?

Just a thought . . .

-----



i read your post really quick and thought you said drew brees...:laugh:


bledsoe was good and would help cutler a lot but could you imagine bledsoe trying to do a bootleg in the west coast shanahan style offense? that is a reciple for disaster!!!

aw hell, someone please hire elway as the qbs coach. then elway could take over as head coach! :elefant:

[topscribe]

i read your post really quick and thought you said drew brees...:laugh:


bledsoe was good and would help cutler a lot but could you imagine bledsoe trying to do a bootleg in the west coast shanahan style offense? that is a reciple for disaster!!!

aw hell, someone please hire elway as the qbs coach. then elway could take over as head coach! :elefant:


You remember Shanny saying Jake didn't love the game Monday through
Saturday, but only on Sunday? That was Elway. It just so happened that
Elway was immensely more talented than Jake or just about anybody else,
if not literally anybody else.

I would love to have student of the game in here to mentor Cutler. That
would leave out Jake :laugh: and Elway.



Gary, where are you? :Cry:



-----

[DenBronx]

You remember Shanny saying Jake didn't love the game Monday through
Saturday, but only on Sunday? That was Elway. I would love to have a
student of the game in here to mentor Cutler. That would leave out Jake :laugh:
and Elway.

Gary, where are you? :Cry:

-----


please dont get me started on kubiak.

since hes left our offensive production has went downhill, yet we have better players. :tsk:

[DenBronx]

some QBs are awesome teachers though. guys like favre and elway really just want to live and die in the moment, thats not a bad thing but it is for the backup.

[Medford Bronco]

please dont get me started on kubiak.

since hes left our offensive production has went downhill, yet we have better players. :tsk:

bring back Ruben droughns, Kubiak made him a 1250 yard runner

He probably will not get 1250 yards the rest of his career from this point forward. *sigh**

[Broncos Mtnman]

Well, you were a strong supporter of the previous QB for the Broncos and loved to throw around his record as a starter. I remember because I was the same way. I can't show you exact quotes because I can't pull them up from the other board..:laugh:


And thus the crux of your arguement. Seems some around here aren't able to "forgive" Shanny for deciding that Jake wasn't the answer around here.

Yep, when the defense gives up 34 points (7 was from special teams), it's clearly the QBs fault that the team lost.

You know, using your "logic," Elway was a failure as a SB QB. After all, his SB record was 2-3, wasn't it?

Geez, that Elway was a really worthless QB when it came to winning the big game.

:coffee:

[DenBronx]

bring back Ruben droughns, Kubiak made him a 1250 yard runner

He probably will not get 1250 yards the rest of his career from this point forward. *sigh**

nor will plummer get back to the playoffs. :first:

[dogfish]

You can't say "Cutler gives us the best chance to win". Then start losing and not expect backlash/questions.

You can't say "We can open up the playbook with Cutler". Then run the same damn plays and not expect backlash/questions.

But hey, lets talk about QB ratings and TD/Int ratio's and yards/game instead of wins and losses. Even though the bottom $%#@ing line is W's and L's.

4-6. Going 2-3 and out of the playoffs last season. Sitting at 2-3, tied for last in what looks to be the weakest division in football, and the worst start for us since '99.

Yet supposedly we're "reloading" and "have a better chance to win".

Cutler's got 3 years after this one. If we don't make it to atleast the AFCCG before then....he'll get "bucked off".


Whats our record as a TEAM with him as the starter?

How come he isn't making everyone around him better? Isn't that what we were told last year and still told today about him when he came in? He is ready to play, he gives us the best chance to win now. Well so far I haven't seen it.

ITs because of comments like those that were made by many on here and in the media and all of the talent around him that the expectations are high of him. Where is the creative play calling we are supposed to have because he is now the QB? It appears its still dumbed down. Its vanilla, its boring, and it stalls at the 20.

Maybe someday we will see it

is it too much to ask that cutler be judged on the quality of his play, and not what "jake bashers" said about him on the old board? he never said any of those things, and he has zero control about what fans say on message boards. . . just let that bitterness end for god's sake!


as for judging him solely on wins and losses-- no, i'm not willing to do that as long as the efense is giving up close to 200 rushing yards per game. . . manning at his deadliest is one of the very few QBs who's ever played that has been able to win many games under those circumstances, and look at the array of weapons he has to work with. . . BUT, if all we're judging QBs on, you better go back and check manning's record in his first sixteen games-- it was a big fat 3-13!!
but i guess indy's pretty happy they didn't buck him off, huh?

WTM, i love how you bring up roethlisberger-- when he took over they had a monster defense, and statistically the most productive running game in the league. . . everyone knows that all he was asked to do was make a few throws here and there and not lose games. . . if he'd been asked to bring his team back down multiple scores, he would have failed just like jay has the past two weeks. . . remember, when he was asked to win games last year (his third season), he threw 23 interceptions and fumbled 5 times, took 46 sacks, and put up a QB rating of 75.4. . . so yea, he gets it-- as long as he has an incredible defense and running game to lean on, that is. . .


when-- and only when-- our efense starts holding people under 150+ rushing yards per game, and our "special" teams stops turning the ball over on the twenty freakin' yard line, will i consider it fair or sensible to compare cutler's wins and losses to brady or roethlisberger. . . hey, carson palmer didn't exactly light the world on fire with his 8-8 record his first year-- anyone wanna tell me he's not a good QB?

[gobroncsnv]

please dont get me started on kubiak.

since hes left our offensive production has went downhill, yet we have better players. :tsk:

I think another reason for this is that our oline is marching steadily downhill. The level of player we had in our SB years is MUCH higher on the front 5 than in the past few. And no, you didn't just hear me say I wish George Foster was back, nor Carlisle. But the better your players are at the point of attack, the smarter your DC OR OC are going to appear. Same for the QB. Cutler will vastly improve when our front 5 do.

Yes, Henry is (or was??) the league leading rusher, but I put more of that on his ability to break tackles, like several yesterday, than on the fab running lanes being opened up. Much of yesterday, our blockers weren't earning their pay. Drives get sustained when the blocks are.

That said, don't count me among those ready to toss Jay. Not at all.

[Broncos Mtnman]

is it too much to ask that cutler be judged on the quality of his play, and not what "jake bashers" said about him on the old board? he never said any of those things, and he has zero control about what fans say on message boards. . . just let that bitterness end for god's sake!


as for judging him solely on wins and losses-- no, i'm not willing to do that as long as the efense is giving up close to 200 rushing yards per game. . . manning at his deadliest is one of the very few QBs who's ever played that has been able to win many games under those circumstances, and look at the array of weapons he has to work with. . . BUT, if all we're judging QBs on, you better go back and check manning's record in his first sixteen games-- it was a big fat 3-13!!
but i guess indy's pretty happy they didn't buck him off, huh?

WTM, i love how you bring up roethlisberger-- when he took over they had a monster defense, and statistically the most productive running game in the league. . . everyone knows that all he was asked to do was make a few throws here and there and not lose games. . . if he'd been asked to bring his team back down multiple scores, he would have failed just like jay has the past two weeks. . . remember, when he was asked to win games last year (his third season), he threw 23 interceptions and fumbled 5 times, took 46 sacks, and put up a QB rating of 75.4. . . so yea, he gets it-- as long as he has an incredible defense and running game to lean on, that is. . .


when-- and only when-- our efense starts holding people under 150+ rushing yards per game, and our "special" teams stops turning the ball over on the twenty freakin' yard line, will i consider it fair or sensible to compare cutler's wins and losses to brady or roethlisberger. . . hey, carson palmer didn't exactly light the world on fire with his 8-8 record his first year-- anyone wanna tell me he's not a good QB?

Virtual "hi-five" to you for this one.

:cool:

[sneakers]

is it too much to ask that cutler be judged on the quality of his play, and not what "jake bashers" said about him on the old board? he never said any of those things, and he has zero control about what fans say on message boards. . . just let that bitterness end for god's sake!


as for judging him solely on wins and losses-- no, i'm not willing to do that as long as the efense is giving up close to 200 rushing yards per game. . . manning at his deadliest is one of the very few QBs who's ever played that has been able to win many games under those circumstances, and look at the array of weapons he has to work with. . . BUT, if all we're judging QBs on, you better go back and check manning's record in his first sixteen games-- it was a big fat 3-13!!
but i guess indy's pretty happy they didn't buck him off, huh?

WTM, i love how you bring up roethlisberger-- when he took over they had a monster defense, and statistically the most productive running game in the league. . . everyone knows that all he was asked to do was make a few throws here and there and not lose games. . . if he'd been asked to bring his team back down multiple scores, he would have failed just like jay has the past two weeks. . . remember, when he was asked to win games last year (his third season), he threw 23 interceptions and fumbled 5 times, took 46 sacks, and put up a QB rating of 75.4. . . so yea, he gets it-- as long as he has an incredible defense and running game to lean on, that is. . .


when-- and only when-- our efense starts holding people under 150+ rushing yards per game, and our "special" teams stops turning the ball over on the twenty freakin' yard line, will i consider it fair or sensible to compare cutler's wins and losses to brady or roethlisberger. . . hey, carson palmer didn't exactly light the world on fire with his 8-8 record his first year-- anyone wanna tell me he's not a good QB?

Didn't rothleshamburger only throw an average of 9 passes a game his rookie year?

[topscribe]

Didn't rothleshamburger only throw an average of 9 passes a game his rookie year?

He averaged 21 passes a game.

-----

[silkamilkamonico]

I already did. Brady, Roth, and Vince is figuring out how to win in the NFL before age 25.

:coffee:

1)That's a hardly a "few" of them.

2)Vince Young hasn't won anything yet in the NFL. Not even played in a playoff game.

3)You've named 3 QB's out of a starting 32, and numerous others that no longer start. On a percentage scale, that's a 9% hit rate at best, and that isn't counting the 10+ backups that have been starters in their career for a good portion.


You wanna bank on those odds of getting that young talented QB to come in and figure it out right away, you could very well be waiting your entire life, and not even get close.

That's simply a reach, and nothing more.

:coffee:

[Simple Jaded]

Virtual "hi-five" to you for this one.

:cool:


I'll see your "High five" and raise you a "Damn straight". :cool:

Well said dogfish....

[Tned]

Having not read the full thread, it is important to remember that even the great (and I don't mean that sarcastically) John Elway had it rough in the beginning.


+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1983 den | 11 | 123 259 47.5 1663 6.4 7 14 | 28 146 1 |
| 1984 den | 15 | 214 380 56.3 2598 6.8 18 15 | 56 237 1 |

Now, some would say that the current team is better (or at least they would have at the beginning of the season), but the fact is that even great QBs take time to develop. Cutler has made his share of mistakes, and has a nice 9 game INT streak going, but he has also made some very good plays.

I do believe that in time he will turn into the franchise player that many expect him to be.

Let's remember, last year many people said that Leinart was the most NFL ready QB of the three, and he has struggled the most. You can't predict how quickly a QB will hit his stride, but 9 games is still way to early to make an negative determination.

[Watchthemiddle]

. . hey, carson palmer didn't exactly light the world on fire with his 8-8 record his first year-- anyone wanna tell me he's not a good QB?


Palmer went 8-8 his first year with the Bengals? WOW, thats impressive. I would take that this year. Atleast 8 of the games would be competitive.

[topscribe]

Having not read the full thread, it is important to remember that even the great (and I don't mean that sarcastically) John Elway had it rough in the beginning.


+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1983 den | 11 | 123 259 47.5 1663 6.4 7 14 | 28 146 1 |
| 1984 den | 15 | 214 380 56.3 2598 6.8 18 15 | 56 237 1 |Now, some would say that the current team is better (or at least they would have at the beginning of the season), but the fact is that even great QBs take time to develop. Cutler has made his share of mistakes, and has a nice 9 game INT streak going, but he has also made some very good plays.

I do believe that in time he will turn into the franchise player that many expect him to be.

Let's remember, last year many people said that Leinart was the most NFL ready QB of the three, and he has struggled the most. You can't predict how quickly a QB will hit his stride, but 9 games is still way to early to make an negative determination.

That means in 1984, Elway's second year, his passer rating was 76.8.

His first 11 games, which comprised his first year, he had twice as many
INTs as he did TDs, and his 14 INTs came to an average of more than an
INT a game. His passer rating that year was 54.9.

By Elway's third year, as discussed elsewhere in this thread, he was still
having his INT problems with 23 of them, to 22 TDs, and his passer rating
was still just 70.2.

-----

[Tned]

That means in 1984, Elway's second year, his passer rating was 76.8.

His first 11 games, which comprised his first year, he had twice as many
INTs as he did TDs, and his 14 INTs came to an average of more than an
INT a game. His passer rating that year was 54.9.

By Elway's third year, as discussed elsewhere in this thread, he was still
having his INT problems with 23 of them, to 22 TDs, and his passer rating
was still just 70.2.

-----

And, while it spans two years, we are just approaching enough games with Cutler to make a rough comparison to Elway's first year.


+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Elway | 11 | 123 259 47.5 1663 6.4 7 14 | 28 146 1 |
| Cutler | 10 | 179 289 61.9 2159 7.5 13 11 | 25 51 1

When we compare Elway's first 11 to Cutler's first 10:

Cutler has more Atts and Comps, nearly 15% higher completion %, around 30% more yards, or over 50 passing yards more a game, slightly better than 1:1 TD to INT ratio, copared to Elways 2:1 INT to TD ratio (1:2 Td to INT), and in the all important (sarcasm intended) passer rating, Cutler is at 83.9 to Elway's 54.8 (29 points higher).

So, while again, it can be argued about who is/was surround by more talent in their first 10 games and how that might be a factor in these stats, what can't be argued is that statistically, Cutler has gotten off to a much better start than Elway did.

We know Cutler is 4-6 in his first 10 starts. Does anyone know how many wins Elway had in his first 11 starts?

[Medford Bronco]

That means in 1984, Elway's second year, his passer rating was 76.8.

His first 11 games, which comprised his first year, he had twice as many
INTs as he did TDs, and his 14 INTs came to an average of more than an
INT a game. His passer rating that year was 54.9.

By Elway's third year, as discussed elsewhere in this thread, he was still
having his INT problems with 23 of them, to 22 TDs, and his passer rating
was still just 70.2.

-----


just to play devils advocate and I am not bashing Cutler

its not about Qb rating, if that were the Case then Griese was better in Denver than Elway and we all know that is far from the case.
Heck Even Tony Eason has a better QB rating than Elway and we all know what we think of Tony Eason :ahhhhh:

Intangibles like Romo last night. Being able to bring your team back from adversity no matter what.
being able to lead your team on those comebacks. even in years 2-4

[Nomad]

WOW! Entertaining thread so far! IMO (not that it matters) Give Cutler a chance, it's not like the young man is in his 3rd yr. I've never understood the bringing up statistics and comparing former QBs. Each Qb had a different players around them. This team this year has been injury plagued (hell the anchor of the team has gone down, Nalen and one of the best leaders ins't playing Rod Smith), issues off the field, and even deaths. They are professionals and yes should be able to over come all this, but this is alot for a rookie QB to soak in. Anyway, carry on.

[In-com-plete]

And, while it spans two years, we are just approaching enough games with Cutler to make a rough comparison to Elway's first year.


+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Elway | 11 | 123 259 47.5 1663 6.4 7 14 | 28 146 1 |
| Cutler | 10 | 179 289 61.9 2159 7.5 13 11 | 25 51 1

When we compare Elway's first 11 to Cutler's first 10:

Cutler has more Atts and Comps, nearly 15% higher completion %, around 30% more yards, or over 50 passing yards more a game, slightly better than 1:1 TD to INT ratio, copared to Elways 2:1 INT to TD ratio (1:2 Td to INT), and in the all important (sarcasm intended) passer rating, Cutler is at 83.9 to Elway's 54.8 (29 points higher).

So, while again, it can be argued about who is/was surround by more talent in their first 10 games and how that might be a factor in these stats, what can't be argued is that statistically, Cutler has gotten off to a much better start than Elway did.

We know Cutler is 4-6 in his first 10 starts. Does anyone know how many wins Elway had in his first 11 starts?

Are you comparing Cutler to Elway Tned?

Maybe you didn't get the memo man. Last I heard, you can't compare Elway to anyone. Atleast that's what I've been told past couple years.

And like I've said before, I'll take a QB who elevates his team to wins over a QB rating type QB 99% of the time. Elway was that type. His ratings and stats were never were high or the best, but he led his team like practically no other.

You ask damn near any Bronco fan who's better, Marino or Elway. I'd almost guarantee 98% of them would say Elway. When ask them why, I bet they'd say because he has the most SB starts, more wins, and more SB rings.

But now the tide has turned. Now the arguements are in reverse.

Funny how that works.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Statistics can't explain a lot of things, but here's the deal.

In ten games, Jay Cutler has thrown for over 2,150 yards - completed over 60 percent of his passes, threw for thirteen touchdowns, ran for one and has an overall QB rating of 84.0 - that's fantastic, despite his interceptions and fumbles - which do need to be improved upon.

He's a second-year QB who hasn't even played a full NFL season yet, and regardless of the team's struggles - you see all the tools, but you have to wait for them to come together.

It's been ten games for Pete's sake, give him some time. He's doing statistically better in almost every category on a game-by-game comparison to guys like Leinart and Young with less experience.

Let's see where he is six games from now, total his sixteen game (a full season) worth of numbers and see where he's at.

If he's throwing for over 3,000 + yards, has a better touchdown to interception ratio, and has a solid rating - he's doing better than most any rookie that has came into the game.

Seriously, the criticism of the kid is getting absolutely ridiculous. He's playing on a team filled with second-rate guys playing due to injuries to starters and is having to force plays because we're playing behind.

I think the guy is doing an admirable job considering the circumstances.

Teams WISHED that their quarterbacks played as well as Jay has through their first ten games.

[broncos9697]

Statistics can't explain a lot of things, but here's the deal.

In ten games, Jay Cutler has thrown for over 2,150 yards - completed over 60 percent of his passes, threw for thirteen touchdowns, ran for one and has an overall QB rating of 84.0 - that's fantastic, despite his interceptions and fumbles - which do need to be improved upon.

He's a second-year QB who hasn't even played a full NFL season yet, and regardless of the team's struggles - you see all the tools, but you have to wait for them to come together.

It's been ten games for Pete's sake, give him some time. He's doing statistically better in almost every category on a game-by-game comparison to guys like Leinart and Young with less experience.

Let's see where he is six games from now, total his sixteen game (a full season) worth of numbers and see where he's at.

If he's throwing for over 3,000 + yards, has a better touchdown to interception ratio, and has a solid rating - he's doing better than most any rookie that has came into the game.

Seriously, the criticism of the kid is getting absolutely ridiculous. He's playing on a team filled with second-rate guys playing due to injuries to starters and is having to force plays because we're playing behind.

I think the guy is doing an admirable job considering the circumstances.

Teams WISHED that their quarterbacks played as well as Jay has through their first ten games.

WOW!!!
what i thread.....this is the deal cutler is agreat QB he has shown it and we have all saw it,he can put up the numbers in yards,td's and int's...oh and fumbles....but as all coaches will say it all focuses around the QB...
I belive in cutler and I do stand behind him but he needs to make better choices yes we can say that about all QB's.....all I am saying is that he is developing but slowly and the way the rest of the teams playing it making him look bad and coaches will be pointing fingers and they will all go towards cutler not being on the field and being around cutler and the other players I or non of you now how the team-mates get along with him,that might be a problem who knows....

[Mike]

WOW!!!
what i thread.....this is the deal cutler is agreat QB he has shown it and we have all saw it,he can put up the numbers in yards,td's and int's...oh and fumbles....but as all coaches will say it all focuses around the QB...
I belive in cutler and I do stand behind him but he needs to make better choices yes we can say that about all QB's.....all I am saying is that he is developing but slowly and the way the rest of the teams playing it making him look bad and coaches will be pointing fingers and they will all go towards cutler not being on the field and being around cutler and the other players I or non of you now how the team-mates get along with him,that might be a problem who knows....

I don't agree at all. Cutler is one of the few bright spots on this team right now, IMO. His play has been fairly solid this year. As much as can be expected from a young QB with shyt for an offensive line and questionable playcalling.

As for his teammates...there is nothing to indicate that they do not trust or like him. That is pure and pointless speculation. In fact, the only people pointing fingers at Cutler are idiot Bronco fans and one idiotic media yahoo.

He is young, inexperienced, and will continue to make mistakes. Get used to it. It is a part of the growing process in the NFL that almost all young QBs go through. The only teams that don't struggle with a young QB are the ones that are carried by a solid running game and a good defense.

[Tned]

Are you comparing Cutler to Elway Tned?

Maybe you didn't get the memo man. Last I heard, you can't compare Elway to anyone. Atleast that's what I've been told past couple years.



No, every QB that comes to Denver is compared to Elway. In stats, in style. If it is a method of comparison, it is done.

The difference is that when a QB becomes 'unpopular' then regardless of the states that are being put up, the comparisons are no longer allowed because Elway was 'great' and the new guy is just a bumb.

Currently, Culter mostly still holds the golden child, or next Elway, status, so people have and will continue to make comparisons.

Regardless, it is valid to point out that most QBs (maybe with the exception of Big Ben and Marino) strugglle quite a bit when they first start.


Statistics can't explain a lot of things, but here's the deal.

In ten games, Jay Cutler has thrown for over 2,150 yards - completed over 60 percent of his passes, threw for thirteen touchdowns, ran for one and has an overall QB rating of 84.0 - that's fantastic, despite his interceptions and fumbles - which do need to be improved upon.

He's a second-year QB who hasn't even played a full NFL season yet, and regardless of the team's struggles - you see all the tools, but you have to wait for them to come together.

It's been ten games for Pete's sake, give him some time. He's doing statistically better in almost every category on a game-by-game comparison to guys like Leinart and Young with less experience.

Let's see where he is six games from now, total his sixteen game (a full season) worth of numbers and see where he's at.

If he's throwing for over 3,000 + yards, has a better touchdown to interception ratio, and has a solid rating - he's doing better than most any rookie that has came into the game.

Everything you said up to this point was great, until you tarnished all with the rookie thing. He is not a rookie. He started (with mixed results) 5 games his rookie year. So, even if you look at his first 16 games spanning two seasons, most of those games will be as a second year player. People need to stop throwing rookie around as if it is an explanation or excuse, because he is not a rookie.


Seriously, the criticism of the kid is getting absolutely ridiculous. He's playing on a team filled with second-rate guys playing due to injuries to starters and is having to force plays because we're playing behind.

He is surrounded by far more talent on offense than has been on the team for most of the last 4 or 5 years (Walker's injury aside). Yes, the line in banged up, but pass protecting as well as we have seen the last five years, and the offensive skill positions as a group are certainly better than any time in recent history with the possible exception of Portis' and Sharpe's last year (2003). However, as great as they were, I think there is a good argument that the current group of offensive skill position players (that regularly see the field) is better than the 2003 group.

2003
WR1 Smith
WR2 Lelie
WR3 Mcaffrey (last year of his career, managed 10 catches 195 yards)
TE Sharpe
TE2 Carswell
RB Portis

2007
WR1 Walker
WR2 Marshall
WR3 Stokely
TE Graham
TE2 Jackson/Scheffler

The '07 WR corp is clearly better and truely three deep for the first time in longer than memory can serve. There is no replacement for Sharpe, and only time will tell how Graham and Scheffler will do. Henry is on pace for a 1,600 yeard season, which as we know, could all go up in smoke.

So, yes, the line is banged up, but as bad as it is banged up, looks very similar to the Broncos lines of the past 4 or 5 years. They are opening up enough yards to get our back(s) lots of yards, they are barely adequate at pass protection.

So, the forcing plays due to playing from behind argument holds a tiny amount of water, especially in the SD game where fumbles and poor defense led to quick defecits. However, lets look at the Colts example. The offense, Cutler at the helm, is responsible for the team not going into the locker room with a nice lead.

The fact is that if Cutler and the offense had been closing out the drives that went with those lofty yard totals in the first few games, then teams wouldn't have been able to sit back and run the ball all day long, because they would have had to come back from behind. That's a two way street, and Cutler and the O haven't been doing their job, even though Cutler is surrounded by more skill position talent then we have seen in a long time.
I think the guy is doing an admirable job considering the circumstances.


Teams WISHED that their quarterbacks played as well as Jay has through their first ten games.

Yes, but it still isn't good enough, because he is still making key mistakes (some leading to INTs, other's simply to incopletions -- punts/field goals) at the wrong time.

However, anyone that was a realist last year when they were calling for the rookie (he was last year) knew that their are growing pains with young QBs and that it is VERY hard to win with rookie and second year QBs. That's why coaches aren't as quick as fans would like to throw young QBs into the starting role.

[omac]

It seems like there's a white elephant in the room .....

[topscribe]

Everything you said up to this point was great, until you tarnished all with the rookie thing. He is not a rookie. He started (with mixed results) 5 games his rookie year. So, even if you look at his first 16 games spanning two seasons, most of those games will be as a second year player. People need to stop throwing rookie around as if it is an explanation or excuse, because he is not a rookie.



Well, Cutler is not a rookie on the team, true. But he is a rookie de facto on
the field. He just finished playing his 10th game on the pro level. That's just
over a half-season. So I believe it is appropriate to call him a second-year
player, and it is also appropriate to call him a rookie. It just depends on the
context.

-----

[Medford Bronco]

2003
WR1 Smith
WR2 Lelie
WR3 Mcaffrey (last year of his career, managed 10 catches 195 yards)
TE Sharpe
TE2 Carswell
RB Portis

2007
WR1 Walker
WR2 Marshall
WR3 Stokely
TE Graham
TE2 Jackson/Scheffler

.


when making the comparison the Running Back postion for 2003 is a much better IMO than Henry et all.
The WRs are better if Walker is healty, if not then its a wash IMO

The TES have done nothing this year, so i think 2003 is better.

My point is that I feel that the defense has made Cutler have to be more perfect than Jake had to be in 03. That is huge and the main reason for the 2-3 record and Cutler is only part of the problem but far from the major one.

all in all I like Cutler. :beer:

I just want to see some clean games that is all before I say he is doing a "good" job. To me he is doing an average job currently and for a QB with 10 starts that is what I expected

[broncos9697]

when making the comparison the Running Back postion for 2003 is a much better IMO than Henry et all.
The WRs are better if Walker is healty, if not then its a wash IMO

The TES have done nothing this year, so i think 2003 is better.

My point is that I feel that the defense has made Cutler have to be more perfect than Jake had to be in 03. That is huge and the main reason for the 2-3 record and Cutler is only part of the problem but far from the major one.

all in all I like Cutler. :beer:

I just want to see some clean games that is all before I say he is doing a "good" job. To me he is doing an average job currently and for a QB with 10 starts that is what I expected

I agree 100%...
cutler I like but all I have been hearing before this weeks game was he has thrown a TD in every game nobody even mentioned int's also which he has,and I mean some of those int's at bad times....
and its always like this on all teams if the team is not preforming the way as expected the QB gets all the blame...
lets see QB spot he's do all right not good nor bad ave.
running back spot there doing great alot of dogging on it with henry but come on he was the leading rusher in the nfl before this last game what more can he do he's put out there to run the ball and thats just what he does and has been doing..
WR spot's ave. but they'll have a great game then a bum game I know its a spot of injury...
TE spot very very horrible they have done nothing we went out and spent a lot on that spot and he has done nothing at all not even blocking...dropped a very important throw from cutler a few weeks ago that ended the game nice throw also...
def line...lets not even get started on that one the worst in the nfl..blame bates..
def backs they have been doing all right..
off.line doing pretty good nothing to ***** about there...
spec. teams horrible....
kicking and punting doing all right even if elam has missed 3 more then last year he's doing fine...
coaching not very good at all.....
grades from me
QB-c
RB-A
WR-c
def.line-f
off line-c
def. backs-b
spec.teams-f
kicking fg & punting-b
these grade fit this team good---------------over all-d

[Crush05]

Come on people. He did not get to play much as a rookie, and now he has basically a whole new offense. I feel he is doing what he can do with what he has and what the offense can seem to do or not do with all the new personnel.:ahhhhh:

[topscribe]

Come on people. He did not get to play much as a rookie, and now he has basically a whole new offense. I feel he is doing what he can do with what he has and what the offense can seem to do or not do with all the new personnel.:ahhhhh:

You are absolutely right. I think Cutler is doing great! I know I'm being
redundant, but all you have to do is look at some of the greats in their
respective first 16 games. And someone mentioned Roethlisberger's great first
year: Yes, but he fell on his face in the second year, didn't he?

I don't know what people expect of rookies (or in deference to you, Tned,
second-year players).

Someone also mentioned Marino's great first year. Who would you have rather
had in those five Super Bowl years: Elway, who threw more INTs than TDs in
his first three years, or Marino, who had that great rookie year?


-----

[SBboundBRONCOS]

the thing is that looking at this team they should be scoring 25 points a game, we have all the "potential" in the world, however potential isnt winning many games for us lately, and it certainly wont start untill they start exchanging that potential for actual greatness

i have been disgusted by the play calling on both sides of the ball, i believe scheffler was not getting a fair shot, he needs to be an every down option for jay. graham should be used sparingly in this pass game, he just isnt a game changer like scheffler has the potential to be. and in all honesty i feel like we are running to much, call me crazy but with a young QB you need to open the field for him so teams are not stacking the box to put pressure on the QB and also slow down the run both at the same time.

i say let jay throw the ball, he is competent enough even as a 10 game starter to make the smart play, and the big play .and i also disagree with most of your takes on his ints, most of them have come at a time when really it didnt matter, sure if this and this happened and had he not thrown that int we would/could have won. jacksonville - didnt matter SD - didnt matter say what you want about a comeback but the game was over after the kickoff fumble.

and just to let everyone know my stance on calling someone a rookie i agree with Tned. i have had to put up with all this grossman crap, and they keep telling me he is a rookie or basically a rookie. im just sick and tired of it.

Jay is a second year player with 10 games under his belt - and thats how i always put it. because he is not a rookie

[topscribe]

the thing is that looking at this team they should be scoring 25 points a game, we have all the "potential" in the world, however potential isnt winning many games for us lately, and it certainly wont start untill they start exchanging that potential for actual greatness

i have been disgusted by the play calling on both sides of the ball, i believe scheffler was not getting a fair shot, he needs to be an every down option for jay. graham should be used sparingly in this pass game, he just isnt a game changer like scheffler has the potential to be. and in all honesty i feel like we are running to much, call me crazy but with a young QB you need to open the field for him so teams are not stacking the box to put pressure on the QB and also slow down the run both at the same time.

i say let jay throw the ball, he is competent enough even as a 10 game starter to make the smart play, and the big play .and i also disagree with most of your takes on his ints, most of them have come at a time when really it didnt matter, sure if this and this happened and had he not thrown that int we would/could have won. jacksonville - didnt matter SD - didnt matter say what you want about a comeback but the game was over after the kickoff fumble.

Well, you're right. Graham, for instance, has been mentioned among the
"weapons" Cutler has. The problem with that is that both Kaylor and SoCal
repeatedly came back from camp with reports that Graham was having a
hard time getting separation in his routes. That, to me, does not constitute
"weapon," does it you?

-----

[Tned]

Well, Cutler is not a rookie on the team, true. But he is a rookie de facto on
the field. He just finished playing his 10th game on the pro level. That's just
over a half-season. So I believe it is appropriate to call him a second-year
player, and it is also appropriate to call him a rookie. It just depends on the
context.

-----

Ok, so with that approach, we can still refer to Romo as a rookie? Even though he is a fifth year player, he only has 15 starts :confused:

How many years was Kubiak a rookie? 4, 5, 7? How many years before he played in 16 games, forget starting them. Also, since we are going to arbitrarily decide what is or isn't a rookie, when a player like Kubiak comes in for a final series or two to hand the ball off and run out the clock, does that count towards his sixteen?

The fact is that a rookie in the NFL is a player in their first year. The additional fact is that in the modern NFL, Cutler has a leg up as a second year starting QB that got 5 starts in his rookie year, rather than none, which many rookies get these days unless the team is horrendous with no future (see AZ and Tenn last year).

Here are the QBs selected in the first 32 rounds the five years prior to Cutler's draft. Name, year selected, round and then how many starts they got their rookie year.

Alex Smith 2005 1 - 7 starts
Aaron Rodgers 2005 24 - 0 starts
Jason Campbell 2005 25 - 0 starts
Eli Manning 2004 1 - 7 starts
Philip Rivers 2004 4 - 0 starts
Big Ben 2004 11 - 13 starts (Maddox injured in game 2, Steelers plan was for him to sit)
Losman 2004 22 - 0 starts
Palmer 2003 1 - 0 starts
Leftwich 2003 7 - 13 games (Brunell injured in game three)
Boller 2003 19 - 9 starts
Grossman 2003 22 - 3 starts
Carr 2002 1 - 16 starts
Harrington 2002 3 - 12 starts
Vick 2001 1 - 2 starts
Brees 2001 32 - 0 starts

As you can see, short of injuries, the prevailing trend in the NFL is to give QBs zero starts their rookie year, or ease them in late in the season. Other than the injury replacements (Leftwich and Big Ben), the only other teams that seemed to start their rookies from the beginning either had no other option, or had nothing to lose (pretty much the same thing).

[SBboundBRONCOS]

Well, you're right. Graham, for instance, has been mentioned among the
"weapons" Cutler has. The problem with that is that both Kaylor and SoCal
repeatedly came back from camp with reports that Graham was having a
hard time getting separation in his routes. That, to me, does not constitute
"weapon," does it you?

-----

not one bit, he can be useful on goaline, and short yardage plays because he does have good hands, for the most part (cough . . jacksonvile). but like i said scheffler is a huge target 6-5 260 with 4.5 speed and great hands. i dont care if he cant block use him like the chargers use gates, put him in the backfield, the slot, or right up on the line. he needs a to be an every down player in my mind, cutler needs a guys to get open all the time, because our recievers cant do it all themselves playing against corners but a TE like scheffler certainly could against LBs, and safeties that are 20 some yards away at the start of the play

not many LBs are able to stay with a player like that. right now i think he could be a Heap, witten type TE. hopefully shanny realizes this and does something because i really like scheffler.

[Tned]

when making the comparison the Running Back postion for 2003 is a much better IMO than Henry et all.
The WRs are better if Walker is healty, if not then its a wash IMO

The TES have done nothing this year, so i think 2003 is better.

My point is that I feel that the defense has made Cutler have to be more perfect than Jake had to be in 03. That is huge and the main reason for the 2-3 record and Cutler is only part of the problem but far from the major one.

all in all I like Cutler. :beer:

I just want to see some clean games that is all before I say he is doing a "good" job. To me he is doing an average job currently and for a QB with 10 starts that is what I expected

Also, remember, I picked 2003 because it was the BEST set of offensive skill players we have had in the last 5 years (including this year in that five). This was in response to him being surround by no talent, or whatever the comment was.

If you look at '04 and '05, then Sharpe and Portis are gone, and Smith is another year older. Off the top of my head, the '04 would be:

WR1 Smith
WR2 Lelie
WR3 Watts (?? or was he '05)
TE1 Putzier
TE2 Carswell
RB T. Bell

Again, I did that by memory, so I might have a piece or two missing, but the point is to say that Cutler has a far worse team around him on offense is wrong. That was the point I was trying to make. It's easy for people to say, "Cutler is struggling, because he has no support", but the reality is that the fact that the offensive skill positions were so weak is the reason that Shanahan spent so much in terms of draft picks and free agency in the last couple years to restock it.

[Tned]

Come on people. He did not get to play much as a rookie, and now he has basically a whole new offense. I feel he is doing what he can do with what he has and what the offense can seem to do or not do with all the new personnel.:ahhhhh:

I agree with you. The biggest problem isn't Cutler's play, but people's expectations of what a second year QB could do. Like many NFL fans, especially Denver fans when it comes to QBs, the expectations about him being able to immediately play at a pro bowl level were way over the top.

[dogfish]

Also, remember, I picked 2003 because it was the BEST set of offensive skill players we have had in the last 5 years (including this year in that five). This was in response to him being surround by no talent, or whatever the comment was.

If you look at '04 and '05, then Sharpe and Portis are gone, and Smith is another year older. Off the top of my head, the '04 would be:

WR1 Smith
WR2 Lelie
WR3 Watts (?? or was he '05)
TE1 Scheffler
TE2 Carswell
RB T. Bell

Again, I did that by memory, so I might have a piece or two missing, but the point is to say that Cutler has a far worse team around him on offense is wrong. That was the point I was trying to make. It's easy for people to say, "Cutler is struggling, because he has no support", but the reality is that the fact that the offensive skill positions were so weak is the reason that Shanahan spent so much in terms of draft picks and free agency in the last couple years to restock it.



it was jeb putzier in 2004-- chef was just drafted last year. . . . ;)


also, when we're talking about his weapons, i think it's important to acknowledge that, no matter how hypothetically good they are (or aren't) right now, we haven't had javon walker, our biggest offensive playmaker, the past two games. . . it's a tremendous oversimplification, but with walker in this year, jay is 2-1-- without walker, 0-2. . . would his presence have been enough to turn the tide? personally i'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been-- as i said before, when the D gives up close to 200 rushing yards, most weeks you're going to lose-- but i think it's fair to say that our passing stats might have been somewhat better-- not only is walker the playmaker that sparks our offense, but when he's out people can pay extra attention to brandon marshall and cover him with their best corner. . .

[Medford Bronco]

Also, remember, I picked 2003 because it was the BEST set of offensive skill players we have had in the last 5 years (including this year in that five). This was in response to him being surround by no talent, or whatever the comment was.

If you look at '04 and '05, then Sharpe and Portis are gone, and Smith is another year older. Off the top of my head, the '04 would be:

WR1 Smith
WR2 Lelie
WR3 Watts (?? or was he '05)
TE1 Scheffler
TE2 Carswell
RB T. Bell

Again, I did that by memory, so I might have a piece or two missing, but the point is to say that Cutler has a far worse team around him on offense is wrong. That was the point I was trying to make. It's easy for people to say, "Cutler is struggling, because he has no support", but the reality is that the fact that the offensive skill positions were so weak is the reason that Shanahan spent so much in terms of draft picks and free agency in the last couple years to restock it.

tned I am not disagreeing with you totally

I just do not think the weapons in 07 are far superior to those in past years IMO.


with Javon healthy maybe a bit better but the rest to me are a wash.

Also his offensive line is not nearly as good as those years at least in cohesiveness as then. Injuries have killed this years group and we
all know how to have a winning team is to be good in the trenches. 03-05 in the trenches both offenively and defensively were much better than 07, esp on defense.

I like Cutler but he has to improve (I think you agree with me)

lets all hope for a great buy week and do better when we come back :salute:

[Medford Bronco]

You are absolutely right. I think Cutler is doing great! I know I'm being
redundant, but all you have to do is look at some of the greats in their
respective first 16 games. And someone mentioned Roethlisberger's great first
year: Yes, but he fell on his face in the second year, didn't he?

I don't know what people expect of rookies (or in deference to you, Tned,
second-year players).

Someone also mentioned Marino's great first year. Who would you have rather
had in those five Super Bowl years: Elway, who threw more INTs than TDs in
his first three years, or Marino, who had that great rookie year?


-----

sorry top but Cutler is not doing great

he is doing maybe average or slightly above that

Jason Campbell who is just about at the same development is doing "great" for this year.

Great means you can play a game with ZERO turnovers. No picks, no fumbled snaps etc.

I like Cutler and will cut some slack but am not going to absolve him from some of the blame for our mediocre start

[silkamilkamonico]

tned I am not disagreeing with you totally

I just do not think the weapons in 07 are far superior to those in past years IMO.


with Javon healthy maybe a bit better but the rest to me are a wash.

Also his offensive line is not nearly as good as those years at least in cohesiveness as then. Injuries have killed this years group and we
all know how to have a winning team is to be good in the trenches. 03-05 in the trenches both offenively and defensively were much better than 07, esp on defense.

I like Cutler but he has to improve (I think you agree with me)

lets all hope for a great buy week and do better when we come back :salute:

I think the weapons at the skill set positions on offense are superior to what we've had in the past.

Walker and Marshall are not only playing the part, but looking the part of a bonafide #1 WR. Stokley is considered the best slot WR in the game by Peyton Manning.

Smith a few years ago, as a #1, is a mere shell of what he was 7+ years ago. Ashley Lelie can't even start as a slot WR in SF. Our #3 then, didn't even make an NFL team.

Henry is an upgrade over TBell, or Mike ANderson, or Rueben Droughns.

The TE position, Putzier got beat out by a 4th round rookie out of Wisconsin in Houston.

As for the skill set positions, I don't even see how the talent level is even comparable.

[topscribe]

tned I am not disagreeing with you totally

I just do not think the weapons in 07 are far superior to those in past years IMO.


with Javon healthy maybe a bit better but the rest to me are a wash.

Also his offensive line is not nearly as good as those years at least in cohesiveness as then. Injuries have killed this years group and we
all know how to have a winning team is to be good in the trenches. 03-05 in the trenches both offenively and defensively were much better than 07, esp on defense.

I like Cutler but he has to improve (I think you agree with me)

lets all hope for a great buy week and do better when we come back :salute:

I have to agree with you regarding Cutler's available weapons to date. Of
course, Scheffler has been entirely unavailable, and Graham has difficulty
at times getting separation on routes. We find that Javon has been battling
an inflamed knee . . . which might explain why he was fairly quite for a
couple weeks. Marshall is still learning his position. Stokley is new to the
system. So Cutler has not had the weapons on the field that he has on
paper.

Now, once Javon, Marshal, Scheffler, and Stokley are all healthy, going
full-speed, and on the same page, then the Broncos will have a bevy of
weapons they haven't seen since the Smith/McAfee/Sharpe/Davis days.

-----

[Medford Bronco]

I think the weapons at the skill set positions on offense are superior to what we've had in the past.

Walker and Marshall are not only playing the part, but looking the part of a bonafide #1 WR. Stokley is considered the best slot WR in the game by Peyton Manning.

Smith a few years ago, as a #1, is a mere shell of what he was 7+ years ago. Ashley Lelie can't even start as a slot WR in SF. Our #3 then, didn't even make an NFL team.

Henry is an upgrade over TBell, or Mike ANderson, or Rueben Droughns.

The TE position, Putzier got beat out by a 4th round rookie out of Wisconsin in Houston.

As for the skill set positions, I don't even see how the talent level is even comparable.

remember I said the offensive line is the main problem

I still do not think the skill players are "far superior"
maybe a bit better but not far superior IMO

Rod Smith was very very good in those days.
Also Portis in 03 was excellent

TE is underutilized this year. how are they doing this year. pretty bad if you ask me. esp Graham, who has been a disappointment to me.

stokely is not a shell of himself from before the akillies (sp) injury

[BigBroncLove]

sorry top but Cutler is not doing great

he is doing maybe average or slightly above that

Jason Campbell who is just about at the same development is doing "great" for this year.

Great means you can play a game with ZERO turnovers. No picks, no fumbled snaps etc.

I like Cutler and will cut some slack but am not going to absolve him from some of the blame for our mediocre start

Jason Campbell also has a defense. So when players around Campbell make massive mistakes like fumbling, the defense is able to give Campbell a chance. I don't care who you are... the coach or a player when there is a 14 point hole early on in a game you start playing catch up. You start having to adjust your schemes to get back into the game. Capmbell also hasn't been playing the quality of teams we have (they've played Miami who has one of the wrost defenses in the NFL, philadelphia on a night they stunk it up big time, Detroit whos oline is in shambles, and a NYG organization who was dealing with injuries that week) Campbell also has thrown 4 TD's and 3 itnerceptions, not a very mistake free QB...

[topscribe]

sorry top but Cutler is not doing great

he is doing maybe average or slightly above that

Jason Campbell who is just about at the same development is doing "great" for this year.

Great means you can play a game with ZERO turnovers. No picks, no fumbled snaps etc.

I like Cutler and will cut some slack but am not going to absolve him from some of the blame for our mediocre start

By "average," you mean among the present starting QBs? Because if that is
what you mean then he is doing great. How many of those other QBs are
rook . . . umm, second-year QBs?

I prefer not to compare him with QBs who have been there for a few years.
I still go back to some of the illuminaries (Elway, Manning, Unitas), and I see
he is outperforming most of them in that context.

-----

[topscribe]

Jason Campbell also has a defense. So when players around Campbell make massive mistakes like fumbling, the defense is able to give Campbell a chance. I don't care who you are... the coach or a player when there is a 14 point hole early on in a game you start playing catch up. You start having to adjust your schemes to get back into the game. Capmbell also hasn't been playing the quality of teams we have (they've played Miami who has one of the wrost defenses in the NFL, philadelphia on a night they stunk it up big time, Detroit whos oline is in shambles, and a NYG organization who was dealing with injuries that week) Campbell also has thrown 4 TD's and 3 itnerceptions, not a very mistake free QB...

Thank you. :beer:

-----

[silkamilkamonico]

remember I said the offensive line is the main problem

I still do not think the skill players are "far superior"
maybe a bit better but not far superior IMO

Rod Smith was very very good in those days.
Also Portis in 03 was excellent

TE is underutilized this year. how are they doing this year. pretty bad if you ask me. esp Graham, who has been a disappointment to me.

stokely is not a shell of himself from before the akillies (sp) injury

I don't think not utilizing a certain position, or injuries, or whatever, doesn't take anything away from the flat out talent we have, which IMHO is not even comparable.

I would take Walker alone over SMith/Lelie in those years.. Throw in Marshall, good grief. Throw in Stokley over Watts, and I don't even have to look at the RB's, or TE's.

SMith's best years were around late 1990's, early 2000's. When he became plagued by injuries since 2001 he's relied on his knowledge for the game.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

I wasn't calling Cutler a rookie, I was saying his experience is still at a "rookie" level based on the games he's played.

[Tned]

it was jeb putzier in 2004-- chef was just drafted last year. . . . ;)


also, when we're talking about his weapons, i think it's important to acknowledge that, no matter how hypothetically good they are (or aren't) right now, we haven't had javon walker, our biggest offensive playmaker, the past two games. . . it's a tremendous oversimplification, but with walker in this year, jay is 2-1-- without walker, 0-2. . . would his presence have been enough to turn the tide? personally i'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been-- as i said before, when the D gives up close to 200 rushing yards, most weeks you're going to lose-- but i think it's fair to say that our passing stats might have been somewhat better-- not only is walker the playmaker that sparks our offense, but when he's out people can pay extra attention to brandon marshall and cover him with their best corner. . .

LOL, I was posting in a hurry, my brain knew it was Jeb, my fingers typed Scheffler.

[Tned]

I wasn't calling Cutler a rookie, I was saying his experience is still at a "rookie" level based on the games he's played.

Ok, but it is still a poor term to use, especially considering how many people are still using it. Because again, to imply that, implies that Romo and so many other 3rd, 4th and 5th year players are rookies, or have rookie experience.

One thing that many people seem to overlook is that there are multiple components to development of a QB. The playbook for instance. When true rookies start from game one, often the playbook as to be greatly reduced, because the player simply isn't familiar with all of it. Cutler was quoted as saying as much last year. Early in the year, something along the lines of how hard it was just to learn all of the plays, and that he understands it more every week, or something like that.

Then there is training camp. A true rookie that starts from Game 1 only gets one set of OTA practices, one training camp, one preseason. A QB that starts in his second year like Palmer, gets two training camps, two years of OTAs, two preseasons, and 16 weeks of seeing game plans implemented, and game week practices, even if that player only takes snaps with the second team, or only a small number of snaps with the first team, that still puts that player far ahead of a true rookie that starts game 1 of is fist season.

Romo isn't a Rookie, Cutler isn't a rookie. Romo only has 5 starts more than Cutler, but should play much better, based on the fact it is his 5th season in the NFL, vs. Cutler's 2nd.

[broncos9697]

If only the play calling was different we all might be thinking of cutler and the broncos as a different team,why not open the book and let cutler throw the ball more open that field up spread that def...call some screens,deep passes and alot or 5-8 yards and out..let the fans see what cutler can do and doing that will open up the running game even more and put less pressure on cutler...
and for the def line and the run stop I guess all I can say is mix it up move players around anything I still dont think that will help them out its going to be a long season with our line....
but if the coaching staff would pull there heads out of there %$& and make better play calling spread the def.we might be able to say something postive about our off.the whole off......does anyone agree...........................
but the way I see it where is the :defense: at

[DenBronx]

cutler in not even a full year with a team that is in the middle of a meltdown is doing just fine in my book. i dont think cutlers even close to the problem on the team...clearly its more than just players whiffing, its the coaches too.

[Simple Jaded]

I feel sorry for the kid.

8 pages and counting on whether or not this kid will make it with 10 starts to go by?

10 starts!

Obviously I don't know if he'll ever be a great player, but imo, he'll never make it in this town regardless....I'd bet a years salary on it....

[Tned]

I feel sorry for the kid.

8 pages and counting on whether or not this kid will make it with 10 starts to go by?

10 starts!

Obviously I don't know if he'll ever be a great player, but imo, he'll never make it in this town regardless....I'd bet a years salary on it....

Life as a Denver QB. All of them have had to face it. It will be many generations before the expectations that Elway set will be gone. Griese faced it, Plummer faced it (even though he wasn't a rookie, the comparisons and expectations were immediately there), Jay is facing it. When Jake was signed, Elway had a talk with him and told him how rough the fans and media in Denver are and that he just needed to play his heart out and not focus on what people were saying.

In reality, even Elway faced it. There was a time when the fans and media almost made him retire, years before winning his SBs.

[DenBronx]

I feel sorry for the kid.

8 pages and counting on whether or not this kid will make it with 10 starts to go by?

10 starts!

Obviously I don't know if he'll ever be a great player, but imo, he'll never make it in this town regardless....I'd bet a years salary on it....

eh, he still would have a job playing for the colorado crush.

[Simple Jaded]

Life as a Denver QB. All of them have had to face it. It will be many generations before the expectations that Elway set will be gone. Griese faced it, Plummer faced it (even though he wasn't a rookie, the comparisons and expectations were immediately there), Jay is facing it. When Jake was signed, Elway had a talk with him and told him how rough the fans and media in Denver are and that he just needed to play his heart out and not focus on what people were saying.

In reality, even Elway faced it. There was a time when the fans and media almost made him retire, years before winning his SBs.


Such is life as a Denver Broncos QB....As for expectations, Cutler is better than I expected him to be at this point.

But then again, I actually knew there would be INT's and fumbles (There is ALWAYS going to be INT's and fumbles, sorry to break it to people)....and I could care less if the guy can play football AND be a cheerleader at the same time.

Maybe I'm just easy to please, but I think this discussion is ridiculous....Matter of fact, the first post in this thread is the most ridiculous post I've read in a long time.

Too bad this discussion is everywhere.....

[omac]

Well, at least Denver fans aren't worse than Jets fans. Here you got Pennington, plays his way back from surgery, gives it his all, then he gets "cheered" (egged) by Jets fans as he limps off the field. Real class. :D

[omac]

I feel sorry for the kid.

8 pages and counting on whether or not this kid will make it with 10 starts to go by?

10 starts!

Obviously I don't know if he'll ever be a great player, but imo, he'll never make it in this town regardless....I'd bet a years salary on it....

I think he'll weather it fine. He has a pretty strong mind, and he's used to situations where he has his back up against the wall. That's why he can recover from bad mistakes in the same game; it doesn't faze him much.

[Simple Jaded]

I think he'll weather it fine. He has a pretty strong mind, and he's used to situations where he has his back up against the wall. That's why he can recover from bad mistakes in the same game; it doesn't faze him much.


That comment was more about the town than it was about Cutler...I see the same thing you do, I just think Broncos fans will have their pound of flesh....

[Tned]

Such is life as a Denver Broncos QB....As for expectations, Cutler is better than I expected him to be at this point.

But then again, I actually knew there would be INT's and fumbles (There is ALWAYS going to be INT's and fumbles, sorry to break it to people)....and I could care less if the guy can play football AND be a cheerleader at the same time.

Maybe I'm just easy to please, but I think this discussion is ridiculous....Matter of fact, the first post in this thread is the most ridiculous post I've read in a long time.

Too bad this discussion is everywhere.....

The discussion doesn't phase me, because I have witnessed it for 20 years. In the '80s and '90s, instead of being posted on message boards, it was callers on stations like KOA. In more recent years, it has been talk radio and internet.

The problem really started with all the people last year that believed Cutler could step in an immediately be a guy that would bring the Broncos to the next level. The simple fact is that it is very rare for a young QB to step in and be a dominant QB, but that is what people expected.

I too am happy with where Cutler is. He IS one of the problems on the team right now, and in many cases the stalled drives (5th in total yards 24th or so in scoring) have been due to his bad decisions, and it would be nice if he could break his INT streak, but the fact is he is doing well for a young QB.

[TXBRONC]

The discussion doesn't phase me, because I have witnessed it for 20 years. In the '80s and '90s, instead of being posted on message boards, it was callers on stations like KOA. In more recent years, it has been talk radio and internet.

The problem really started with all the people last year that believed Cutler could step in an immediately be a guy that would bring the Broncos to the next level. The simple fact is that it is very rare for a young QB to step in and be a dominant QB, but that is what people expected.

I too am happy with where Cutler is. He IS one of the problems on the team right now, and in many cases the stalled drives (5th in total yards 24th or so in scoring) have been due to his bad decisions, and it would be nice if he could break his INT streak, but the fact is he is doing well for a young QB.

Some people have expectations that don't jive with reality. I believe that given some time Jay will eventually lead this team to where we would all like them to go.

Sure Jay has some responsibility in what's been happening with scoring, but certainly he's not the only reason. Ints don't help, neither do turnovers by backs and receivers, and penalties.

[Tned]

Some people have expectations that don't jive with reality. I believe that given some time Jay will eventually lead this team to where we would all like them to go.

Sure Jay has some responsibility in what's been happening with scoring, but certainly he's not the only reason. Ints don't help, neither do turnovers by backs and receivers, and penalties.

Agreed on both points.

I certainly don't believe he is the only problem, but he has had his share of drive killing mistakes. Some INTs, others just bad throws or missing the open receiver.

[broncos9697]

Agreed on both points.

I certainly don't believe he is the only problem, but he has had his share of drive killing mistakes. Some INTs, others just bad throws or missing the open receiver.

yes cutler is doing fine right now he has the yards the td's but also the int's he's young and still learning, college and the nfl its a big step...
a lot of fans expected him to come right in and be another elway I am one of those fans but when we see our team going down hill alot of point our fingers at the QB.....
fans are going to hate me for this one...myself I liked plummer he had a winning record for us he had his good games and his bad games like every QB's have..and cutler's going to have those also...its not really his int's every game that are getting to me,its his fumbles from the center that i dont under stand and now they are just going to get worse..

[Retired_Member_001]

I understand people's fustration at Cutler to be honest.

I think most people would shut up if he could just go one game without an interception.

Let's not forget the kid is behind maybe the worst offensive line in football.

[dogfish]

Let's not forget the kid is behind maybe the worst offensive line in football.

wook, i'm sorry, but that's not even anywhere close to true. . . before you hammer the line any more, please take a look at the hard evidence. . .


we are tied for 3rd in the league with a 4.8 yards per rush average, and 5th in the league with 694 total rushing yards. . . in pass protection, we are tied for 8th, having given up a grand total of 6 sacks-- compared to detroit, who has given up 27 sacks, and atlanta, who has given up 19. . .

none of those stats point to an O-line that resembles the "worst in the league" in any way-- our line certainly isn't the dominant force that it used to be back in the alex gibbs days, and i absolutely agree that there is room for improvement, and that's it's an area that is in need of some attention. . .

but for a unit that's playing with a somewhat hobbled left tackle (don't forget lepsis has been nursing a groin injury all year-- until we know for sure that it's fully healed we can't even begin to judge whether he's lost his explosion after the micro-fracture), without it's starting left guard from the past 5-6 years, and with new starters at three positions, they have done a decent job. . . it can always be better, but for a group with a bunch of new faces, including a first-time starter and another starter with less than a year's playing experience under his belt, giving up six sacks in five games is not bad at all!

[Medford Bronco]

wook, i'm sorry, but that's not even anywhere close to true. . . before you hammer the line any more, please take a look at the hard evidence. . .


we are tied for 3rd in the league with a 4.8 yards per rush average, and 5th in the league with 694 total rushing yards. . . in pass protection, we are tied for 8th, having given up a grand total of 6 sacks-- compared to detroit, who has given up 27 sacks, and atlanta, who has given up 19. . .

none of those stats point to an O-line that resembles the "worst in the league" in any way-- our line certainly isn't the dominant force that it used to be back in the alex gibbs days, and i absolutely agree that there is room for improvement, and that's it's an area that is in need of some attention. . .

but for a unit that's playing with a somewhat hobbled left tackle (don't forget lepsis has been nursing a groin injury all year-- until we know for sure that it's fully healed we can't even begin to judge whether he's lost his explosion after the micro-fracture), without it's starting left guard from the past 5-6 years, and with new starters at three positions, they have done a decent job. . . it can always be better, but for a group with a bunch of new faces, including a first-time starter and another starter with less than a year's playing experience under his belt, giving up six sacks in five games is not bad at all!


I think the Philadelphia Eagles are the worst or close to it IMO

[Retired_Member_001]

wook, i'm sorry, but that's not even anywhere close to true. . . before you hammer the line any more, please take a look at the hard evidence. . .


we are tied for 3rd in the league with a 4.8 yards per rush average, and 5th in the league with 694 total rushing yards. . . in pass protection, we are tied for 8th, having given up a grand total of 6 sacks-- compared to detroit, who has given up 27 sacks, and atlanta, who has given up 19. . .

none of those stats point to an O-line that resembles the "worst in the league" in any way-- our line certainly isn't the dominant force that it used to be back in the alex gibbs days, and i absolutely agree that there is room for improvement, and that's it's an area that is in need of some attention. . .

but for a unit that's playing with a somewhat hobbled left tackle (don't forget lepsis has been nursing a groin injury all year-- until we know for sure that it's fully healed we can't even begin to judge whether he's lost his explosion after the micro-fracture), without it's starting left guard from the past 5-6 years, and with new starters at three positions, they have done a decent job. . . it can always be better, but for a group with a bunch of new faces, including a first-time starter and another starter with less than a year's playing experience under his belt, giving up six sacks in five games is not bad at all!

I'll personally admit that the offensive line's performance against San Diego was better.

Our two worst performances in terms of pass blocking were against Buffalo and the Jags. Just go back and watch those games, just watch how Lepsis and Pears were thrown around. How slow Holland was. How quickly Cutler had to throw.

Compare the time Cutler has to throw, to the time Garrard or Losman has to throw.

Simple as, if Cutler wasn't throwing the ball so quickly we would be up there in terms of sacks allowed. Stats don't mean anything though.

Now Atlanta probably HAS the worst offensive line in Football, of course Joey Harrington doesn't help, possibly why they made the change. Detroit's line is a mess aswell. We aren't THAT bad, but we are defintley in the bottom 10 in terms of pass protection.

Our run blocking is inconsistent, but it will do.

The thing is Tom Nalen has been the only offensive lineman who has been playing well, and he's out for the season.

Chris Myers looks very promising but he is young and has been making costly mistakes.

Stats may not prove it, but there is no doubt that Cutler is one of the Quarterbacks with the least time to throw the ball in the NFL.

[topscribe]

I'll personally admit that the offensive line's performance against San Diego was better.

Our two worst performances in terms of pass blocking were against Buffalo and the Jags. Just go back and watch those games, just watch how Lepsis and Pears were thrown around. How slow Holland was. How quickly Cutler had to throw.

Compare the time Cutler has to throw, to the time Garrard or Losman has to throw.

Simple as, if Cutler wasn't throwing the ball so quickly we would be up there in terms of sacks allowed. Stats don't mean anything though.

Now Atlanta probably HAS the worst offensive line in Football, of course Joey Harrington doesn't help, possibly why they made the change. Detroit's line is a mess aswell. We aren't THAT bad, but we are defintley in the bottom 10 in terms of pass protection.

Our run blocking is inconsistent, but it will do.

The thing is Tom Nalen has been the only offensive lineman who has been playing well, and he's out for the season.

Chris Myers looks very promising but he is young and has been making costly mistakes.

Stats may not prove it, but there is no doubt that Cutler is one of the Quarterbacks with the least time to throw the ball in the NFL.

VERY good comment. Were it not for Cutler's mobility and quick release, the
Broncos would be in a worse pickle than they are now. Nonetheless, as you
implied, even with those tools, Cutler cannot be as accurate and effective
when he has to get rid of the ball so quickly all the time.

Which makes all this criticism of Cutler asinine, IMO. People who are down
on him have failed to watch the whole game.

-----

[Retired_Member_001]

VERY good comment. Were it not for Cutler's mobility and quick release, the
Broncos would be in a worse pickle than they are now. Nonetheless, as you
implied, even with those tools, Cutler cannot be as accurate and effective
when he has to get rid of the ball so quickly all the time.

Which makes all this criticism of Cutler asinine, IMO. People who are down
on him have failed to watch the whole game.

-----

Exactly my points. Every time Cutler has to throw the ball so quickly after taking the snap because of poor pass protection, which happens way too often, I wonder how much better he would do with a proper offensive line.

And the big problem is, we need upgrades in EVERY offensive line position minus LG now Nalen is injured.

LT - Lepsis will retire next year, I am sure of it. I think he knows he is not good enough anymore. Obviously Harris could be an option here but we don't know how good he is so it's hard to judge.

C - After this injury, I am 100% positive Nalen will retire. With this team looking so woeful, I don't think he will want to stick around.

RG - Holland is the RG equivelent of George Foster. It's only if Kuper can step up.

RT - Erik Pears IS the next George Foster.

[broncos9697]

Exactly my points. Every time Cutler has to throw the ball so quickly after taking the snap because of poor pass protection, which happens way too often, I wonder how much better he would do with a proper offensive line.

And the big problem is, we need upgrades in EVERY offensive line position minus LG now Nalen is injured.

LT - Lepsis will retire next year, I am sure of it. I think he knows he is not good enough anymore. Obviously Harris could be an option here but we don't know how good he is so it's hard to judge.

C - After this injury, I am 100% positive Nalen will retire. With this team looking so woeful, I don't think he will want to stick around.

RG - Holland is the RG equivelent of George Foster. It's only if Kuper can step up.

RT - Erik Pears IS the next George Foster.

ya our off. lane is banged up but we really are not that bad....
next year we might be in trouble 2 will retire but we have FA and the draft..so we will have to wait and see...

[TXBRONC]

I'll personally admit that the offensive line's performance against San Diego was better.

Our two worst performances in terms of pass blocking were against Buffalo and the Jags. Just go back and watch those games, just watch how Lepsis and Pears were thrown around. How slow Holland was. How quickly Cutler had to throw.

Compare the time Cutler has to throw, to the time Garrard or Losman has to throw.

Simple as, if Cutler wasn't throwing the ball so quickly we would be up there in terms of sacks allowed. Stats don't mean anything though.

Now Atlanta probably HAS the worst offensive line in Football, of course Joey Harrington doesn't help, possibly why they made the change. Detroit's line is a mess aswell. We aren't THAT bad, but we are defintley in the bottom 10 in terms of pass protection.

Our run blocking is inconsistent, but it will do.

The thing is Tom Nalen has been the only offensive lineman who has been playing well, and he's out for the season.

Chris Myers looks very promising but he is young and has been making costly mistakes.

Stats may not prove it, but there is no doubt that Cutler is one of the Quarterbacks with the least time to throw the ball in the NFL.

I don't Wookie I think this line has done solid job in both run and pass blocking. Now things might change since both Hamilton and Nalen are lost for the season however, to this point I think they've done well.

Even with mistakes Jay has made he's still doing fairly well, I really hope he can get back his biggest offensive weapon in Walker and Rod's presences on the field wouldn't hurt either.

[Lonestar]

sorry gang but I'm not going to go through all of those post so IF I repeat something that someone else said already, sorry about that.

Jay will be a pretty damned good QB some day may not be this year may not be 2008. If the media and fans do not drive him nuts and destroy his mojo, he will be someone that may make many forget about both Jake and John.

Most have him beyond greasy and the others that have been in the past already.

Given some time to pass and with the talent that seems to be developing on the team, offensively this will be one really great offense in either 2008 or 09 and beyond.

everyone expectations were over the Moon on this rookie QB.

I'll say it again slowly for the hearing impaired and mental midgets out there SPEED KILLS and ROCKET ARMS mean nothing if you can't get past the LOS (tater) or you do not have someone that can catch the ball when it is thrown.

This team has been on the decline for almost a decade now. Since John TD Sharpe Eddie mac and many of the high powered Superbowl players retired or move on. This team has been reloading primarily with low powered "OK" stars. Everyone here has not seen that as clearly as some.

We are now rebuilding, no matter what some say. It will take a year or two or an injury and weed free season to do other wise.

While Thomas may be a budding superstar at DT and Adams is on the Delcine the rest of them are bit players.
The DE position looks like it is on the rise and may be position of strength if Mikey will get his head out of his rectum and get at least one more fat boy in here for next year and a another the year after to replace Sam the fat man Adams.

[omac]

That comment was more about the town than it was about Cutler...I see the same thing you do, I just think Broncos fans will have their pound of flesh....

Yeah, you're right about that. But it happens with a lot of other teams fans.

Surprisingly, Denver fans have been a little more patient with Cutler. It doesn't hurt that he doesn't make that many mistakes in a game, specially compared to last season. I actually think he's trying too hard not to make mistakes, and taking less chances. so there are less scoring opportunities. I also think Shanny's been thinking the same way.

[BigBroncLove]

Exactly my points. Every time Cutler has to throw the ball so quickly after taking the snap because of poor pass protection, which happens way too often, I wonder how much better he would do with a proper offensive line.

And the big problem is, we need upgrades in EVERY offensive line position minus LG now Nalen is injured.

LT - Lepsis will retire next year, I am sure of it. I think he knows he is not good enough anymore. Obviously Harris could be an option here but we don't know how good he is so it's hard to judge.

C - After this injury, I am 100% positive Nalen will retire. With this team looking so woeful, I don't think he will want to stick around.

RG - Holland is the RG equivelent of George Foster. It's only if Kuper can step up.

RT - Erik Pears IS the next George Foster.

I haven;t been overwhelmed with the level of the Offensive lines play, but your evaluations of the positions are reactionary IMO and far to negative. It sounds like you think everyone will retire or be George Foster :confused: .

Anyways look at the two teams we played that you say the Broncos played so terribly against. The Buffalo teams one saving grace is the strength it has on the defensive line. Against the Cowboys who have one of the largest Offensive lines in the game (and we all know how you push the Broncos need to go bigger at the Oline) were man handled throughout the game. Schobel is no joke at Dline, he is a top tier DE in my opinion, and Lepsis despite his injury performed very well against him. Kelsay is also a solid DE against both the run and the pass. He is good with his leverage and has speed. Both were shut out of the game in terms of sacks. He ran well against Buffalo and gave Cutler time to get things going. When talking baout JAcksonville you are talking about one of the leagues top Dlines. Stroud is a beast, we all remember HAyward (he was a Bronco after all) who shows speed and power off the edge, and thank god Henderson was out, though Meier and McDaniel are solid replacements. They could start for us. Hayward got only one sack that game and only pressured the QB a few times. Stroud didn't do much of anything.

I do agree, Cutlers mobility, elusiveness, and quick release have saved some sacks, but I won't agree that the play of this line is at the bottom of the league. Freeney got only one real pressure against us. Mathis created some pressure but was largely out of the game. Cutler has had time. Infact I would wager 70% of the time he has more then enough time to complete the play being handed down to him. The problem is WR's not alway getting open, or the ones that are are his 2 or third option and checking down takes a lot of time. While it's important to want as much time for your QB to compete, I think you cannot expect him to have all day every play.

I agree this Oline isn't giving him all day to pass, but I think we all accept this isn't Indy or NE's Oline. They are performing well, and through our first five games we have played very capable and top of the league Dlines. Look at each. SD has a lot of talent in their front 7 (Jamal Williams, Castillo, Olshansky, Merriman, Philips). JAcksonville who has one of the best Dlines (Henderson, Stroud, Hayward). The Bills one strength is their Dline on D (Schobel and Kelsay). The Colts have one of the most explosive and fast Dlines (Mcfarland, Freeney, Mathis). Oaklands also has a big Dline that causes problems for both the ru nand pass (Sapp, Warren, Burgess, Sands). I think they have performed well given the conditions.

Can they do better? of course. I think there is a lot of room for improvement but I don't think LEpsis is retiring, and I seriously seriously doubt PEars is the next Foster. I am not a huge fan of Holland and Myers has been middle of the road so far. However they have not been a bottom of the league pass protecting Oline, especially since the competition they played has been very competitive who have given supposedly great Olines real trouble.

[Retired_Member_001]

I haven;t been overwhelmed with the level of the Offensive lines play, but your evaluations of the positions are reactionary IMO and far to negative. It sounds like you think everyone will retire or be George Foster :confused:

Yes, I think that. Nalen and Lepsis have both had bad injuries and Holland and Pears are terrible.


Anyways look at the two teams we played that you say the Broncos played so terribly against. The Buffalo teams one saving grace is the strength it has on the defensive line. Against the Cowboys who have one of the largest Offensive lines in the game (and we all know how you push the Broncos need to go bigger at the Oline) were man handled throughout the game. Schobel is no joke at Dline, he is a top tier DE in my opinion, and Lepsis despite his injury performed very well against him. Kelsay is also a solid DE against both the run and the pass. He is good with his leverage and has speed. Both were shut out of the game in terms of sacks. He ran well against Buffalo and gave Cutler time to get things going. When talking baout JAcksonville you are talking about one of the leagues top Dlines. Stroud is a beast, we all remember HAyward (he was a Bronco after all) who shows speed and power off the edge, and thank god Henderson was out, though Meier and McDaniel are solid replacements. They could start for us. Hayward got only one sack that game and only pressured the QB a few times. Stroud didn't do much of anything.

I couldn't disagree more.

First of all, if you read my new article, you will see that I say that the Cowboys could do better with pass protection. Despite being big (and no I am not pushing for bigger lineman for us, I just want better lineman), they aren't all good lineman. The Bills defensive line causing the Cowboys offensive line problems is no suprise to me, a good defensive line going against an above average offensive line.

Aaron Schobel OWNED Matt Lepsis. People are ignorant and just go by numbers, they don't watch and see the truth. It's hard to judge the offensive line by stats, it's easy to judge an offensive line by watching them. Schobel actually hit Cutler the second Cutler released the ball various times.


I do agree, Cutlers mobility, elusiveness, and quick release have saved some sacks, but I won't agree that the play of this line is at the bottom of the league. Freeney got only one real pressure against us. Mathis created some pressure but was largely out of the game. Cutler has had time. Infact I would wager 70% of the time he has more then enough time to complete the play being handed down to him. The problem is WR's not alway getting open, or the ones that are are his 2 or third option and checking down takes a lot of time. While it's important to want as much time for your QB to compete, I think you cannot expect him to have all day every play.

I would wager that 70% of the time, Cutler DOESN'T have enough time. As I said before, we did a average job against San Diego, a below average job against the Colts, a bad job against the Raiders and horrendous jobs against Buffalo and Jacksonville. There's a difference between having a quick release and being rushed to throw.


I agree this Oline isn't giving him all day to pass, but I think we all accept this isn't Indy or NE's Oline. They are performing well, and through our first five games we have played very capable and top of the league Dlines. Look at each. SD has a lot of talent in their front 7 (Jamal Williams, Castillo, Olshansky, Merriman, Philips). JAcksonville who has one of the best Dlines (Henderson, Stroud, Hayward). The Bills one strength is their Dline on D (Schobel and Kelsay). The Colts have one of the most explosive and fast Dlines (Mcfarland, Freeney, Mathis). Oaklands also has a big Dline that causes problems for both the ru nand pass (Sapp, Warren, Burgess, Sands). I think they have performed well given the conditions.

We have played some good defensive lines, that is for sure. But this team is going to have to go up against good defensive lines to suceed. As long as we put up bad performances against good defensive lines, we wont win.


Can they do better? of course. I think there is a lot of room for improvement but I don't think LEpsis is retiring, and I seriously seriously doubt PEars is the next Foster. I am not a huge fan of Holland and Myers has been middle of the road so far. However they have not been a bottom of the league pass protecting Oline, especially since the competition they played has been very competitive who have given supposedly great Olines real trouble

If Lepsis retires it will be better for the team, he's lost it. Erik Pears is a joke, he did a good job last season, but he is doing a bad job this season. Holland is terrible. Myers has made some mistakes, but overall he looks promising.

Anyway, most people don't agree with me on my thoughts on the offensive line. That's because many fail to watch what the offensive line is doing in game.

[BigBroncLove]

Aaron Schobel OWNED Matt Lepsis. People are ignorant and just go by numbers, they don't watch and see the truth. It's hard to judge the offensive line by stats, it's easy to judge an offensive line by watching them. Schobel actually hit Cutler the second Cutler released the ball various times.

I did watch and Lepsis was not OWNED at the line. HE did well, and while beat a few times, it did not speak of the overall performance. I believe your basing his performance based on a very few plays. I have seen the game several times and Lepsis was not beat at the LOS nearly as many times as yoru making him out to be.


I would wager that 70% of the time, Cutler DOESN'T have enough time. As I said before, we did a average job against San Diego, a below average job against the Colts, a bad job against the Raiders and horrendous jobs against Buffalo and Jacksonville. There's a difference between having a quick release and being rushed to throw.

Once again I don't think you've seen the same tape as I have. There is a big difference between some rushed plays and quick release plays. There definately have been breakdowns, but they don't speak for the majority of plays IMO. Cutler has been rushed but he also has had plenty of time. There's a mix. Also we did not play terribly against Oakland. We almost lost that game to a tipped pass interception and one big pass on D. Not because our Oline failed to perform well. Henry produced 130 yards and Cutler over 300.... that is not horrendous play :rolleyes:


We have played some good defensive lines, that is for sure. But this team is going to have to go up against good defensive lines to suceed. As long as we put up bad performances against good defensive lines, we wont win.

I agree. No one is sayign this Oline is perfect, but with the level of talent we have played at Dline, this Oline has done well enough not to warrent the far reaching calls by you to revamp it. When a Oline plays above average on several occassions against top Dlines, I think your evaluation of that line is slightly subjective. We are not Detorit, we are not Philly, those are bad Dlines. We are not a bottom 10 team as far as pass protection goes.


If Lepsis retires it will be better for the team, he's lost it. Erik Pears is a joke, he did a good job last season, but he is doing a bad job this season. Holland is terrible. Myers has made some mistakes, but overall he looks promising.

Who do we have behind Lepsis? Harris with his back injury in his rookie year? If Lepsis retires, without an heir apparent this team will suffer for several years IMO. Lepsis is one of the things keepign this line from collapsing. PEars has been off and on, jsut like your boy Myers. I don't think you have watched his level of play on a regular basis. It's a simple fact that sometimes an Olineman will be beat, but so long as they generally compete at a high level and don't make it a habit, they are performing to par if not better. PEars has done that.


Anyway, most people don't agree with me on my thoughts on the offensive line. That's because many fail to watch what the offensive line is doing in game.

I don't think people haven;t been watching the line, I think your decision on this line was decided long before. You complained about htis line last year, through the offseason, and I haven;t see nanything at the LOS to warrent your calls for PEars and Lepsis to be yanked or released.... Holland I can agree with though. Anyways, its obvous we won't agree... so we have to agree to disagree.

[Retired_Member_001]

I did watch and Lepsis was not OWNED at the line. HE did well, and while beat a few times, it did not speak of the overall performance. I believe your basing his performance based on a very few plays. I have seen the game several times and Lepsis was not beat at the LOS nearly as many times as yoru making him out to be.

As you said at the bottom of your post, we are going to have to agree to disagree. I have watched the game twice, both times I thought Lepsis was being thrown around by Schobel.


Once again I don't think you've seen the same tape as I have. There is a big difference between some rushed plays and quick release plays. There definately have been breakdowns, but they don't speak for the majority of plays IMO. Cutler has been rushed but he also has had plenty of time. There's a mix.

70% was an over exaggeration. But the offensive line has broken down too many times for my liking. Just comparing what our offensive line is like to other teams (most of the other teams), I see a big difference.


Who do we have behind Lepsis? Harris with his back injury in his rookie year? If Lepsis retires, without an heir apparent this team will suffer for several years IMO. Lepsis is one of the things keepign this line from collapsing. PEars has been off and on, jsut like your boy Myers. I don't think you have watched his level of play on a regular basis. It's a simple fact that sometimes an Olineman will be beat, but so long as they generally compete at a high level and don't make it a habit, they are performing to par if not better. PEars has done that.

There's something called the NFL Draft, I want us to bring in a Brickashaw Ferguson type LT. Since this year's draft is so deep at T, it should be easy to find a guy with his quality, in the #15-25 overall pick spot.

Pears has been on and off, mostly off. Myers has been on and off, mostly on. There's the difference. I predict Myers will be the next Ben Hamilton (who I don't like) BUT, he will do better pass protecting. Myers hasn't been a hero or anything, he just looks promising.

Of course Offensive lineman will be beat, and at times Quarterbacks will be forced to throw quickly. From what I see though, Jay Cutler is under alot more pressure than the average Quarterback.


I don't think people haven;t been watching the line, I think your decision on this line was decided long before. You complained about htis line last year, through the offseason, and I haven;t see nanything at the LOS to warrent your calls for PEars and Lepsis to be yanked or released.... Holland I can agree with though. Anyways, its obvous we won't agree... so we have to agree to disagree.

My decision was made up long ago. The reason I still feel this way is because NOTHING has been changed for the better.

Agree to disagree, it's something I've had to do often on this subject. My views will not change though, I still think our offensive line is bad. I will continue to hope for a T in the first round of the draft.

This is what messageboards are for. :beer:

[broncos9697]

As you said at the bottom of your post, we are going to have to agree to disagree. I have watched the game twice, both times I thought Lepsis was being thrown around by Schobel.



70% was an over exaggeration. But the offensive line has broken down too many times for my liking. Just comparing what our offensive line is like to other teams (most of the other teams), I see a big difference.



There's something called the NFL Draft, I want us to bring in a Brickashaw Ferguson type LT. Since this year's draft is so deep at T, it should be easy to find a guy with his quality, in the #15-25 overall pick spot.

Pears has been on and off, mostly off. Myers has been on and off, mostly on. There's the difference. I predict Myers will be the next Ben Hamilton (who I don't like) BUT, he will do better pass protecting. Myers hasn't been a hero or anything, he just looks promising.

Of course Offensive lineman will be beat, and at times Quarterbacks will be forced to throw quickly. From what I see though, Jay Cutler is under alot more pressure than the average Quarterback.



My decision was made up long ago. The reason I still feel this way is because NOTHING has been changed for the better.

Agree to disagree, it's something I've had to do often on this subject. My views will not change though, I still think our offensive line is bad. I will continue to hope for a T in the first round of the draft.

This is what messageboards are for. :beer:

if lepsis does retire it'll take us another 6 years to recover that spot...
he's been in his prime and still is in his prime......
everyone thinks thats just a dud spot in the line when its really not [very important]

[Retired_Member_001]

if lepsis does retire it'll take us another 6 years to recover that spot...
he's been in his prime and still is in his prime......
everyone thinks thats just a dud spot in the line when its really not [very important]

As I said, we will need to draft a top LT and there are plenty of top left tackles in this years draft.

[broncos9697]

As I said, we will need to draft a top LT and there are plenty of top left tackles in this years draft.

ya buts he;s just not replaceable that easy..
why are members talking like no big deal,he's always hurt and old lets just pick one up....
Its not that easy when he produces the way he does...

[champ24girl]

http://www.denverbroncos.com/resources/custom/Images/Temporary/cutler_071010.jpg

[Watchthemiddle]

sorry gang but I'm not going to go through all of those post so IF I repeat something that someone else said already, sorry about that.

Jay will be a pretty damned good QB some day may not be this year may not be 2008. If the media and fans do not drive him nuts and destroy his mojo, he will be someone that may make many forget about both Jake and John.

Most have him beyond greasy and the others that have been in the past already.

Given some time to pass and with the talent that seems to be developing on the team, offensively this will be one really great offense in either 2008 or 09 and beyond.

everyone expectations were over the Moon on this rookie QB.

I'll say it again slowly for the hearing impaired and mental midgets out there SPEED KILLS and ROCKET ARMS mean nothing if you can't get past the LOS (tater) or you do not have someone that can catch the ball when it is thrown.

This team has been on the decline for almost a decade now. Since John TD Sharpe Eddie mac and many of the high powered Superbowl players retired or move on. This team has been reloading primarily with low powered "OK" stars. Everyone here has not seen that as clearly as some.

We are now rebuilding, no matter what some say. It will take a year or two or an injury and weed free season to do other wise.

While Thomas may be a budding superstar at DT and Adams is on the Delcine the rest of them are bit players.
The DE position looks like it is on the rise and may be position of strength if Mikey will get his head out of his rectum and get at least one more fat boy in here for next year and a another the year after to replace Sam the fat man Adams.


:dito:

_______________

[BigBroncLove]

As I said, we will need to draft a top LT and there are plenty of top left tackles in this years draft.

Even if we draft one, which I sincerly doubt with the draft of Harris this last year in the third round, it usually takes an individual a year to adjust to Denvers complex zone blocking schemes. Few players have ever been able to be plugged into the line in their rookie year, and usually if they were it was due to injury and not their talent. The Broncos generally like to keep an Oline on the sideliens for a year, even two to allow them the ability to properly adjust to the system. Even if we drafted an LT in the first, he would have to be a top 10 talent IMO to be able to come into this system and start right away. The only LT's that have performed well this year being an immediate starter are Ugoh and Thomas. Staley has been uninspriing in his play IMO. Ugoh is able to benefit from one of the best Olines in the game, and has struggled at times. Thomas is obviously a top 5 talent.

IMO even if we grab an LT early on we wil be dealing with at least a year of adjustment to our system. Besides, the Broncos have a bit of a tradiiton of going after Oline outside of the 1st, the obvious exception being George Foster (to which you speak very low of, and for good reason IMO). The depth at LT you are talking about would mean it would be smarter to wait later in the rounds, get a great talent that will need to be developed rather then a top 15 talent that may or may not be able to be slotted in right away. But I still believe this Bronco organization is set on developing Harris before we start to pursue any new LT's in next years draft, even in 2009 IMO.

[Lonestar]

Even if we draft one, which I sincerly doubt with the draft of Harris this last year in the third round, it usually takes an individual a year to adjust to Denvers complex zone blocking schemes. Few players have ever been able to be plugged into the line in their rookie year, and usually if they were it was due to injury and not their talent. The Broncos generally like to keep an Oline on the sideliens for a year, even two to allow them the ability to properly adjust to the system. Even if we drafted an LT in the first, he would have to be a top 10 talent IMO to be able to come into this system and start right away. The only LT's that have performed well this year being an immediate starter are Ugoh and Thomas. Staley has been uninspriing in his play IMO. Ugoh is able to benefit from one of the best Olines in the game, and has struggled at times. Thomas is obviously a top 5 talent.

IMO even if we grab an LT early on we wil be dealing with at least a year of adjustment to our system. Besides, the Broncos have a bit of a tradiiton of going after Oline outside of the 1st, the obvious exception being George Foster (to which you speak very low of, and for good reason IMO). The depth at LT you are talking about would mean it would be smarter to wait later in the rounds, get a great talent that will need to be developed rather then a top 15 talent that may or may not be able to be slotted in right away. But I still believe this Bronco organization is set on developing Harris before we start to pursue any new LT's in next years draft, even in 2009 IMO.


Is suspect your correct about the chances of mikey blowing a top choice on OLINE hopefully he learned in the foster fiasco.

It take a couple for years to get great at the OLT spot unless of course youra top 5 pick.

[TXBRONC]

Even if we draft one, which I sincerely doubt with the draft of Harris this last year in the third round, it usually takes an individual a year to adjust to Denver's complex zone blocking schemes. Few players have ever been able to be plugged into the line in their rookie year, and usually if they were it was due to injury and not their talent. The Broncos generally like to keep an Oline on the sidelines for a year, even two to allow them the ability to properly adjust to the system. Even if we drafted an LT in the first, he would have to be a top 10 talent IMO to be able to come into this system and start right away. The only LT's that have performed well this year being an immediate starter are Ugoh and Thomas. Staley has been uninspiring in his play IMO. Ugoh is able to benefit from one of the best Olines in the game, and has struggled at times. Thomas is obviously a top 5 talent.

IMO even if we grab an LT early on we will be dealing with at least a year of adjustment to our system. Besides, the Broncos have a bit of a tradition of going after Oline outside of the 1st, the obvious exception being George Foster (to which you speak very low of, and for good reason IMO). The depth at LT you are talking about would mean it would be smarter to wait later in the rounds, get a great talent that will need to be developed rather then a top 15 talent that may or may not be able to be slotted in right away. But I still believe this Bronco organization is set on developing Harris before we start to pursue any new LT's in next years draft, even in 2009 IMO.

I think you hit the nail on the head BBL. Although at this point just about anything is possible. Right now I don't think offensive linemen are at the top of the list of priorities.

[Lonestar]

I think you hit the nail on the head BBL. Although at this point just about anything is possible. Right now I don't think offensive linemen are at the top of the list of priorities.

Lets pray they find a FA DT or hit the draft big time for a couple.

Anyone can plainly see that this is the weakest are on the team.

If the Defense can hold them from time to time we only have to score 42 points a game to be competitive and it all starts in Bates scheme with big cloggers. NO cloogie everything else goes to hell in a hand basket.

[TXBRONC]

Lets pray they find a FA DT or hit the draft big time for a couple.

Anyone can plainly see that this is the weakest are on the team.

If the Defense can hold them from time to time we only have to score 42 points a game to be competitive and it all starts in Bates scheme with big cloggers. NO cloogie everything else goes to hell in a hand basket.

Yes it is obvious that we need more along the defensive line. However, if this team wins only one more game as you have suggested that would more than likely put us at the top of the draft. If that's case and assuming Henry ends up suspended (which mean Shanahan will release him) then runningback becomes a priority. Couple that with expectation that McFadden is considered the top choice in the draft. That being said I could see Shanahan not even hesitating to take him.

[Lonestar]

Yes it is obvious that we need more along the defensive line. However, if this team wins only one more game as you have suggested that would more than likely put us at the top of the draft. If that's case and assuming Henry ends up suspended (which mean Shanahan will release him) then runningback becomes a priority. Couple that with expectation that McFadden is considered the top choice in the draft. That being said I could see Shanahan not even hesitating to take him.

Which IMHO will do nothing to help this team win unless we can consistently score 40+ points the defense will lose those games.

If we can;t win with teh leading rusher in the league this year how is another newbie gonna make the diffenrence?

[Broncos Mtnman]

Am I the only one who thinks draft talk after only 5 games is a bit premature?

I don't want to think about the draft until next spring.

I want to enjoy THIS SEASON, regardless of how it turns out.

:beer:

[TXBRONC]

Which IMHO will do nothing to help this team win unless we can consistently score 40+ points the defense will lose those games.

If we can;t win with the leading rusher in the league this year how is another newbie gonna make the difference?

Going with your contention that the Broncos will go 3-13 that would more than likely put us at the top of the draft order. Put that together with the assumption that McFadden is considered the leading candidate to be the overall number one pick and the assumption that Henry is gone if he gets suspended then McFadden becomes a wise choice.

And to say that having an explosive runningback like McFadden would do nothing help this team win isn't accurate in my opinion. It certainly would because it makes the offense more dangerous.

You also made mention of getting a DT in free agency. If Shanahan meets that need in free agency, that would make it even easier to take McFadden.

[TXBRONC]

Am I the only one who thinks draft talk after only 5 games is a bit premature?

I don't want to think about the draft until next spring.

I want to enjoy THIS SEASON, regardless of how it turns out.

:beer:


So do I but it is part of this conversation.

[dogfish]

Am I the only one who thinks draft talk after only 5 games is a bit premature?



possibly. . . . :laugh:



actually i do know where you're coming from, but some of us like to talk draft all year long-- and it's noticeably easier when the team is playing as wretchedly as they have been. . . everyone enjoys the game differently. . .

[BigBroncLove]

So do I but it is part of this conversation.

Same here. I generally don't think about the draft at all, but in several threads it has become a point of discussion, so might as well have an opinion on it :D .

Like mtnman though and you, I prefer to concentrate on the week to week of football rather then the far horizon, at least until the season ends.

[Retired_Member_001]

ya buts he;s just not replaceable that easy..
why are members talking like no big deal,he's always hurt and old lets just pick one up....
Its not that easy when he produces the way he does...

What your going to have to understand is Lepsis isn't good ole' Matt Lepsis anymore. He's lost it.

He needs replacing.

[Retired_Member_001]

Even if we draft one, which I sincerly doubt with the draft of Harris this last year in the third round, it usually takes an individual a year to adjust to Denvers complex zone blocking schemes. Few players have ever been able to be plugged into the line in their rookie year, and usually if they were it was due to injury and not their talent. The Broncos generally like to keep an Oline on the sideliens for a year, even two to allow them the ability to properly adjust to the system. Even if we drafted an LT in the first, he would have to be a top 10 talent IMO to be able to come into this system and start right away. The only LT's that have performed well this year being an immediate starter are Ugoh and Thomas. Staley has been uninspriing in his play IMO. Ugoh is able to benefit from one of the best Olines in the game, and has struggled at times. Thomas is obviously a top 5 talent.

IMO even if we grab an LT early on we wil be dealing with at least a year of adjustment to our system. Besides, the Broncos have a bit of a tradiiton of going after Oline outside of the 1st, the obvious exception being George Foster (to which you speak very low of, and for good reason IMO). The depth at LT you are talking about would mean it would be smarter to wait later in the rounds, get a great talent that will need to be developed rather then a top 15 talent that may or may not be able to be slotted in right away. But I still believe this Bronco organization is set on developing Harris before we start to pursue any new LT's in next years draft, even in 2009 IMO.

I have been following this years offensive line class very closely and I will tell you, it is packed. We could get top 10 talent in the mid-late first round in my opinion. It's a big opportunity to grab top talent here. LT or RT, those positions are full of talent in this years draft.

As you know, I am not happy with Erik Pears, we could pick up a top RT.

This is our chance to get a top prospect offensive lineman. We could even get good talent in the second round.

[TXBRONC]

What your going to have to understand is Lepsis isn't good ole' Matt Lepsis anymore. He's lost it.

He needs replacing.


He's coming off a knee injury Wookie it takes about year before a player is fully recovered.

[Tned]

Am I the only one who thinks draft talk after only 5 games is a bit premature?

I don't want to think about the draft until next spring.

I want to enjoy THIS SEASON, regardless of how it turns out.

:beer:

I think it is premature, I am more focused on the Broncos getting a playoff berth than what the draft situation will look like.

[Lonestar]

I think it is premature, I am more focused on the Broncos getting a playoff berth than what the draft situation will look like.

Lets not hold our breath on this one.

Even if we did get one the odds are it is one and done again...

Way to many things that have gone south this year IMO to allow a serious SB run to happen.

[TXBRONC]

Lets not hold our breath on this one.

Even if we did get one the odds are it is one and done again...

Way to many things that have gone south this year IMO to allow a serious SB run to happen.

Tned didn't say anything about a SuperBowl birth Jr for now its focus on making the playoffs.

Also Tned has never struck me as being unrealistic about the Broncos situation.

[Tned]

Lets not hold our breath on this one.

Even if we did get one the odds are it is one and done again...

Way to many things that have gone south this year IMO to allow a serious SB run to happen.

If it did happen to be one and done, then at least that is one game of playoff experience for Cutler and the other youngsters. However, anything can happen if they get in the playoffs.

At this time, we simply have no idea how this team will be playing in December. The same? Worse? Better? Much better?

So, as a fan, I am hoping for steady improvements as the year goes on, which hopefully include more wins than losses.

[broncos9697]

If it did happen to be one and done, then at least that is one game of playoff experience for Cutler and the other youngsters. However, anything can happen if they get in the playoffs.

At this time, we simply have no idea how this team will be playing in December. The same? Worse? Better? Much better?

So, as a fan, I am hoping for steady improvements as the year goes on, which hopefully include more wins than losses.

look how are def started off last year and then ended...
who knows that might happen this year but the other way around..
you never know in the nfl...

[Medford Bronco]

If it did happen to be one and done, then at least that is one game of playoff experience for Cutler and the other youngsters. However, anything can happen if they get in the playoffs.

At this time, we simply have no idea how this team will be playing in December. The same? Worse? Better? Much better?

So, as a fan, I am hoping for steady improvements as the year goes on, which hopefully include more wins than losses.

I just want a win vs Pitt and then go from there.

That would be a HUGE start IMO

[Tned]

look how are def started off last year and then ended...
who knows that might happen this year but the other way around..
you never know in the nfl...

Exactly. We aren't on practically a record setting pace in rushing yards given up, because our DTs are the worst to every play in the history of the NFL. The problems clearly aren't just the people it is how the people are playing. As Shanny said in his press conference when asked if he would be shaking things up and making big changes (or something like that), he said no, they are going to refocus on the basics. The players aren't the problem, the preperation is. He then gave examples of teams that have started the year slow and then got stronger as the year went on.

[TXBRONC]

I just want a win vs Pitt and then go from there.

That would be a HUGE start IMO

One game at a time.

[DenBronx]

i think the colts are still the team to beat...and we lost to them, along with 5 other teams this year. then i really think the chargers are a much better team then what their record says. id say the chargers just didnt adjust to the coaching changes all that well and finally are finding a groove. lt is starting to rush for more and more yards each game. the jacksonville game we could have won.

but i think pitt is the weakest of those 3 teams. unfortunately they still have a running game. if there ever was to be a must win this year and a game we turn things around its got to be this game. if we go down 2-4 then the road traveled is going to look very ugly the rest of the year and you might as well cancell the playoffs. if we win we go back to .500 at 3-3 and this gives the team something to build on and cutler should improve as the year goes on...i just dont want to see anymore picks, he needs to find a way to throw some touchdowns, mainly in the redzone. sheffler and graham really need to get more invloved to help this happen.

[TXBRONC]

i think the colts are still the team to beat...and we lost to them, along with 5 other teams this year. then i really think the chargers are a much better team then what their record says. id say the chargers just didnt adjust to the coaching changes all that well and finally are finding a groove. lt is starting to rush for more and more yards each game. the jacksonville game we could have won.

but i think pitt is the weakest of those 3 teams. unfortunately they still have a running game. if there ever was to be a must win this year and a game we turn things around its got to be this game. if we go down 2-4 then the road traveled is going to look very ugly the rest of the year and you might as well cancell the playoffs. if we win we go back to .500 at 3-3 and this gives the team something to build on and cutler should improve as the year goes on...i just dont want to see anymore picks, he needs to find a way to throw some touchdowns, mainly in the redzone. sheffler and graham really need to get more invloved to help this happen.

I agree, however I would also like to add the rest of the offense has step it up in the red zone as well. Jay has made some mistakes but things like offensive pass interference and holding penalties have killed some drives in the red zone.

[dogfish]

PLAYOFFS??! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwq7BYOnDrM)

[TXBRONC]

PLAYOFFS??! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwq7BYOnDrM)

Maybe the Moras are relatives of Jr. :D

[Requiem / The Dagda]

It's never to early to talk draft. Want to talk about the 2009 Draft?

[broncos9697]

It's never to early to talk draft. Want to talk about the 2009 Draft?

booty all the way...

[Lonestar]

Exactly. We aren't on practically a record setting pace in rushing yards given up, because our DTs are the worst to every play in the history of the NFL. The problems clearly aren't just the people it is how the people are playing. As Shanny said in his press conference when asked if he would be shaking things up and making big changes (or something like that), he said no, they are going to refocus on the basics. The players aren't the problem, the preperation is. He then gave examples of teams that have started the year slow and then got stronger as the year went on.

The same guy that states at the end of each year we are a player or two away from the whole enchilada.

Sorry but he loses credibility each time he speaks IMO.

Can this team get better than it is sure that should not be all that hard to do when your at rock bottom a little improvement is monumental.

[Lonestar]

Maybe the Moras are relatives of Jr. :D

Actually they were neighbors Momma Mora made the best burritos ever I can still taste them 45 years later.

And it is JR, for those that can not spell. Add it to your spell checker.

;)

[Watchthemiddle]

Not sure where this thread has gone...perhaps a close and start a playoff prediction or draft thread would be nice.

Anyway...draft talk is premature but if we are going to talk it we might as well talk 2008 and 2009 because we need alot more help then just one draft can provide.

:2cents:

[TXBRONC]

Actually they were neighbors Momma Mora made the best burritos ever I can still taste them 45 years later.

And it is JR, for those that can not spell. Add it to your spell checker.

;)

Your screen name on this board is spelled with a small 'r'.

[broncos9697]

back on cutler,
will it be bowlin or shanny that will make the decision on how long he will last if nothing gets better soon..
I know we all can blame the def. and even the off..but fingers will be pointed at cutler...now our star RB will be lost for the season maybe forever therefor we have to depend on young which I do not think he's a fit in denver ''turner here we come be ready''............our WR core is fine with or with out rod smith....

[Tned]

back on cutler,
will it be bowlin or shanny that will make the decision on how long he will last if nothing gets better soon..
I know we all can blame the def. and even the off..but fingers will be pointed at cutler...now our star RB will be lost for the season maybe forever therefor we have to depend on young which I do not think he's a fit in denver ''turner here we come be ready''............our WR core is fine with or with out rod smith....

It will be Shanny, and I think we are a long way from that point. Cutler likely has all of this year, and maybe all of next year before they are going to be ready to write him off.

[dogfish]

It will be Shanny, and I think we are a long way from that point. Cutler likely has all of this year, and maybe all of next year before they are going to be ready to write him off.


yea, you'd think a high first round selection, with all the talent in the world and in whom we've made a serious investment, would get at least as long as. . . oh, say brian griese or jake plummer. . . .


:rolleyes:



i've said before, harboring unrealistic expectations is an open invitation for disappointment. . . some fans would like to see the quarterback changed every two or three games when we aren't winning, but that isn't exactly a recipe for success. . . .


:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Medford Bronco]

yea, you'd think a high first round selection, with all the talent in the world and in whom we've made a serious investment, would get at least as long as. . . oh, say brian griese or jake plummer. . . .


:rolleyes:



i've said before, harboring unrealistic expectations is an open invitation for disappointment. . . some fans would like to see the quarterback changed every two or three games when we aren't winning, but that isn't exactly a recipe for success. . . .


:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

great post dogfish

unless Cutler can help out the defense its gonna be a long rest of the season

I hope I am wrong and have been so many times but I do not have a good feeling on this game as Pitt is a bad matchup for a defense that gives up 181 yards rushing.

Maybe we can outscore them :confused:

I hope Cutler is ready to have his first interception free game in a long time as that will be the first step to having a chance to win this game.
No turnovers for anyone in blue and orange and they have a chance

[Tned]

yea, you'd think a high first round selection, with all the talent in the world and in whom we've made a serious investment, would get at least as long as. . . oh, say brian griese or jake plummer. . . .

:rolleyes:

As unpopular as it will be to say, we can't really compare him to Jake, because the team won when Jake was QB. However, the team lost four straight the year Griese took over and went .500 or so for the season. The team is 4-6 under Cutler (spanning two years), so I would say he is on par with Griese's start at least in record.


i've said before, harboring unrealistic expectations is an open invitation for disappointment. . . some fans would like to see the quarterback changed every two or three games when we aren't winning, but that isn't exactly a recipe for success. . . .


:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Couldn't agree more.

[Simple Jaded]

back on cutler,
will it be bowlin or shanny that will make the decision on how long he will last if nothing gets better soon..
I know we all can blame the def. and even the off..but fingers will be pointed at cutler...now our star RB will be lost for the season maybe forever therefor we have to depend on young which I do not think he's a fit in denver ''turner here we come be ready''............our WR core is fine with or with out rod smith....


We know return you to your regularly scheduled program: "How to systematically dismantle a perfectly good QB....A case study in ridiculous fanaticism"....

[Stargazer]

Give him time. Just give the young kid some time. He's today and the future. Critique Cutler when he's played atleast one complete NFL season. IMO, two or three then start to critique his game. Elway, Peyton, and plenty of others have had terrible seasons at the beginning of their careers.

:salute:

[Simple Jaded]

We're checking the Expiration Date on the new QB....but week 6 is too soon to talk about the draft? :D....


Ri-dic-u-lous :2thumbs:

[Lonestar]

great post dogfish

unless Cutler can help out the defense its gonna be a long rest of the season

I hope I am wrong and have been so many times but I do not have a good feeling on this game as Pitt is a bad matchup for a defense that gives up 181 yards rushing.

Maybe we can outscore them :confused:

I hope Cutler is ready to have his first interception free game in a long time as that will be the first step to having a chance to win this game.
No turnovers for anyone in blue and orange and they have a chance

He did play safety in HS and was recruited by the real schools to play safety although many here are glad he decided on vandy. Perhaps he just need to bulk up a bit and he could play DT also. That is where we suck past Adams,

[broncos9697]

It will be Shanny, and I think we are a long way from that point. Cutler likely has all of this year, and maybe all of next year before they are going to be ready to write him off.

ya i agree he'll be the starter the rest of the season even next year he';ll be the starter...
he's a great QB...if the def. steps up I think that will make cutler a better QB for the bronco's...
:first:

[TXBRONC]

As unpopular as it will be to say, we can't really compare him to Jake, because the team won when Jake was QB. However, the team lost four straight the year Griese took over and went .500 or so for the season. The team is 4-6 under Cutler (spanning two years), so I would say he is on par with Griese's start at least in record.



Couldn't agree more.


I'm fairly certain that Griese in his first season as a starter he went 6-10.

[silkamilkamonico]

back on cutler,
will it be bowlin or shanny that will make the decision on how long he will last if nothing gets better soon..

I would say Shanny, but I think Shanny will be out before Cutler.

[TXBRONC]

I would say Shanny, but I think Shanny will be out before Cutler.

If that time comes it will be Shanahan's call to make.

[broncos9697]

If that time comes it will be Shanahan's call to make.

no no no!!!!!!
shanny will not be fired by bowlin...
if he is not a bronco that means re resigned thats the only way he'll be out as bronco coach..

[eessydo]

He hasn't even played a full season and the talent level is significantly lower on the defensive side of the ball than it was when Griese picked up the reigns.......

Give me a break. For all intensive purposes this kid is still in his rookie season. By my count 4-6 is significantly better than Troy Aikman's 0-11 start with Dallas team when he took over the starting job.

All I have seen so far is a kid with an unbelievable arm, that is very accurate. He makes a couple of poor decisions, but 3 or 4 years at the helm and he will be a better than average Starter in this league. I won't call him HoF material yet, but last I checked he is running a top 10 offense......we are sputtering a little bit in the red zone and turnovers are a problem, but I am extremely happy considering he has only started 10 games and been in the league for 1.5 seasons.

This is the NFL people, rookies aren't supposed to play to the level he is currently playing at......


And this fire Shanahan BS that his been flying about, why?

Wins come in cycles and he is in a downturn. He is still one of the top 5 coaches in the league and is a brilliant game planner. We just need a little more consistency out of our defense. Part of that plan should include keeping a defensive coordinator around for the next 5 years or so to get the players that fit the scheme over a period of time.

Bates is a good coordinator, he has proven that. We got a couple of pieces for him last year, should add a couple more in 08 and 09 that should build our team and by 2010 we should be looking good again.

I think we were all too spoiled over the last couple of years and have too high an expectation for this team in transition. I for one am glad we are doing as well as we are with the new building blocks we are leveraging for the foundation of our future team.

[Lonestar]

Unless Jay gets caught in restroom with a little boy he will be here a long time.

He is Mikey's boy the one that the franchise is going to ride for the next 12-15 years barring injury.

Mike will continue to surround him with talent on that side of the team it will be REALLY hard for him to fail.

[broncos9697]

He hasn't even played a full season and the talent level is significantly lower on the defensive side of the ball than it was when Griese picked up the reigns.......

Give me a break. For all intensive purposes this kid is still in his rookie season. By my count 4-6 is significantly better than Troy Aikman's 1-16 Dallas team when he took over.

All I have seen so far is a kid with an unbelievable arm, that is very accurate. He makes a couple of poor decisions, but 3 or 4 years at the helm and he will be a better than average Starter in this league. I won't call him HoF material yet, but last I checked he is running a top 10 offense......we are sputtering a little bit in the red zone and turnovers are a problem, but I am extremely happy for that considering he has only started 10 games and been in the league for 1.5 seasons.

This is the NFL people, rookies aren't supposed to play to the level he is currently playing at......

ya your right....
tell A. peterson that........

[Mike]

ya your right....
tell A. peterson that........

Runningback slightly different than QB. :rolleyes:

[silkamilkamonico]

ya your right....
tell A. peterson that........

Wow.

Someday you'll figure it out.

[eessydo]

ya your right....
tell A. peterson that........

Are you serious? RB is the most interchangeable skilled offensive position. I would think as a Broncos fan you would have understood this concept by now considering Shanahan's success with the running game and no name backs.

QB and WR typically take around 3 years to adjust.

Come on now, don't be slow.

:defense::protest:

[dogfish]

He hasn't even played a full season and the talent level is significantly lower on the defensive side of the ball than it was when Griese picked up the reigns.......

Give me a break. For all intensive purposes this kid is still in his rookie season. By my count 4-6 is significantly better than Troy Aikman's 0-11 start with Dallas team when he took over the starting job.

All I have seen so far is a kid with an unbelievable arm, that is very accurate. He makes a couple of poor decisions, but 3 or 4 years at the helm and he will be a better than average Starter in this league. I won't call him HoF material yet, but last I checked he is running a top 10 offense......we are sputtering a little bit in the red zone and turnovers are a problem, but I am extremely happy considering he has only started 10 games and been in the league for 1.5 seasons.

This is the NFL people, rookies aren't supposed to play to the level he is currently playing at......


And this fire Shanahan BS that his been flying about, why?

Wins come in cycles and he is in a downturn. He is still one of the top 5 coaches in the league and is a brilliant game planner. We just need a little more consistency out of our defense. Part of that plan should include keeping a defensive coordinator around for the next 5 years or so to get the players that fit the scheme over a period of time.

Bates is a good coordinator, he has proven that. We got a couple of pieces for him last year, should add a couple more in 08 and 09 that should build our team and by 2010 we should be looking good again.

I think we were all too spoiled over the last couple of years and have too high an expectation for this team in transition. I for one am glad we are doing as well as we are with the new building blocks we are leveraging for the foundation of our future team.




stop, you're making too much sense. . . .

[TXBRONC]

no no no!!!!!!
shanny will not be fired by bowlin...
if he is not a bronco that means re resigned thats the only way he'll be out as bronco coach..

Ooops my bad. :tsk:

[broncos9697]

Runningback slightly different than QB. :rolleyes:

nobody said QB...you or whoever said rookie that goes for all rookies......

[Mike]

nobody said QB...you or whoever said rookie that goes for all rookies......

If you cannot understand the differences in learning curves rookie QBs experience compared to rookie RBs then there is no point continuing this conversation with you. :coffee:

Maybe I will just go back to my first post...losses must do something to people's intelligence. It is the only explanation for the stupidity in threads such as this.

[broncos9697]

If you cannot understand the differences in learning curves rookie QBs experience compared to rookie RBs then there is no point continuing this conversation with you. :coffee:

Maybe I will just go back to my first post...losses must do something to people's intelligence. It is the only explanation for the stupidity in threads such as this.

oh!!!!!
how about big ben from pit........came out of the gates on fire.....
and stupid no no no!!!
we all make points not call names..

[eessydo]

oh!!!!!
how about big ben from pit........came out of the gates on fire.....
and stupid no no no!!!
we all make points not call names..

Anomoly my friend, and quite frankly it wasn't like he had a huge year, just didn't make mistakes.

[TXBRONC]

oh!!!!!
how about big ben from pit........came out of the gates on fire.....
and stupid no no no!!!
we all make points not call names..

I guess you are unaware the Steelers relied on their power running game and their defense. Ben wasn't attempting more than about 25 throws per game.

[dogfish]

oh!!!!!
how about big ben from pit........came out of the gates on fire.....
and stupid no no no!!!
we all make points not call names..


and we all know that because you can name a handful of QBs in the HISTORY of the game who played well immediately, that cutler should match them, if not exceed them. . . he needs to be the best that's ever played, and he needs to do it NOW, because broncos fans have this ridiculous sense of entitlement-- they DESERVE to have the best QB in the league, and they deserve to have it NOW-- anything less is unacceptable, and will lead to great amounts of complaining and armchair quarterbacking on the internet. . . . :lol:



seriously, can you step back for a minute and see what you sound like?

[Lonestar]

Anomoly my friend, and quite frankly it wasn't like he had a huge year, just didn't make mistakes.3

It is easy to win when your defense is great and you can run the ball at will.

If the QB does not make mistakes almost impossible to lose.

[Simple Jaded]

Ridiculous:

ri·dic·u·lous
adj.
Deserving or inspiring ridicule; absurd, preposterous, or silly.

[pnbronco]

Jay is here for the long haul. He has talent. This is an off year in so many different ways. Just look at all the injuries plus what other team has had to deal with 2 deaths in the off season, one a murder. Jay is also young and has a lot to learn, but he will. I have seen flashes of brillance and it reminds me of another young man who did learn the system and took us much further than Denver had ever seen, there are those of us that remember the young Elway. I really liked Jake the person and miss him. He was really kind to many of us fans and I do miss that. When it comes to raw talent I see it in Jay and look forward to seeing it develop.

[broncos9697]

I guess you are unaware the Steelers relied on their power running game and their defense. Ben wasn't attempting more than about 25 throws per game.

all I was doing was answering a ?????????....
thats all i did....and he relied on his powerfull running attack well ya when you have a great coach and owner you can build a great team.....
For us that is not true I wish it was but its not...

[TXBRONC]

all I was doing was answering a ?????????....
thats all i did....and he relied on his powerfull running attack well ya when you have a great coach and owner you can build a great team.....
For us that is not true I wish it was but its not...

It seemed pretty clear to me that you were meaning that Cohwer put pressure of winning games on Ben's shoulders. Are you now changing your stance?

Yep Cohwer is such a great coach that he's 1-1 in Super Bowls and at that his bids were more 10 years apart. Yea that's greatness. :rolleyes:

[Simple Jaded]

Stop feeding the Troll! :D

[TXBRONC]

Stop feeding the Troll! :D

Fortunately my sack of bread crumbs just ran out. :D

[broncos9697]

Stop feeding the Troll! :D

feeding the troll go ahead keep the dog off....
I started this thread and we have got way off the issue...
basically over all are beloved bronco's suck this year bates bad move....
are off.line is really the only sweet spot and RB untill the mary-jane got involved..

[broncos9697]

If that time comes it will be Shanahan's call to make.

ya and he's a big off. man..........
as in drafts he would much rather go off first 2 rounds then def..byt it cant always be that way in the nfl..