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Gamechanger
01-21-2009, 01:14 AM
Larry Coyer?

I ask this because he's rumored to be the Colts next DC also along with the Herm rumors

was he THAT bad or was he just one of Shanahans victims?

someone help me out here?

Shazam!
01-21-2009, 01:25 AM
The 'beef' was the same beef Shanahan had with Larry Coyer, Jake Plummer, Greg Robinson, etc. etc... Beef = Scapegoat

Besides, I don't care how great a DC you are. When your DLine is atrocious (Browncos,) filled in over the years with nobody you'd want on any team (McGlockton, Dalton, Rice, etc.) and devoid af actual talent, then you jettison your best (not great but serviceable) Starters (Pryce, Hayward, Berry, etc,) just blame the DC. That's the Shanahan way.

Shanahan got too comfortable in that role; not accepting blame and passing it on.

fcspikeit
01-21-2009, 01:37 AM
Larry Coyer?

I ask this because he's rumored to be the Colts next DC also along with the Herm rumors

was he THAT bad or was he just one of Shanahans victims?

someone help me out here?

I thought he did a great job in 05 with our defense, It was said Shanahan wanted him to develop a scheme that didn't rely so heavily on the blitz in 06.. In 06, we almost never blitzed, we couldn't get any pressure at all and our D sucked big time. Coyer was then fired..

dogfish
01-21-2009, 02:03 AM
probably the main things were lack of creativity and ability to make adjustments. . . it was pretty common for us to play lights-out defense in the first half of a game, but seem unable to respond when teams came out with a new plan of attack in the second half. . . he also had kind of an all-or-nothing mentality when it came to blitzing-- in '05 we went from a team that rarely brought much pressure to one that relied on heavy blitzing on most downs, often the all-out "zero" blitzes. . . and in '06 we went back to playing soft zones where the defenders keep everything in front of them. . . he didn't seem to mix it up all that much, and he wasn't necessarily the most inventive guy around when it came to things like disguising his blitzes with different fronts and pre-snap movement, things like that. . .

personally, i loved the heavy blitzing we did in '05, and i still believe it helped take a roster with pretty average talent to the AFCCG. . . i don't think coyer is a genius or defensive mastermind by any means, and i wasn't especially disappointed when he was let go after the way the D collapsed in the second half of '06, but he seemed to be well-respected by his players, and i think the fact that he got a job with monte kiffin's staff in tampa shows that he was thought of pretty highly around the league. . .

IMO he was an excellent LBs coach, and a competent but not spectacular coordinator. . . he never exactly ad an over-abundance of top-notch talent to work with here-- certainly some quality pieces with guys like wilson and bailey, but lack of talent on the DL probably limited him to an extent. . .

in all honesty, i think he can be a solid DC for you guys if you hire him, but don't expect miracles. . . you guys have one or two real studs on D and a lot of warm bodies IMO-- if sanders can't play more than five or six games per year, i wouldn't count on coyer coming in and putting together a dominant defense. . . i would say that until indy really committs to spending the draft picks to add more defensive talent and the cap dollars to keep them, your D is going to continue to be what it's been in recent years. . .

for example, will they let hayden walk just as he's entering his prime, after they've invested a high pick and the time to develop him? when you look at guys like mike peterson and marcus washington, they've let a fair amount of defensive talent walk to pay for PAYton and his fancy toys over the years. . . i also think their insistence on running a pure tampa-2 scheme with all those undersized players tends to hurt them, especially as the season wears on and guys get banged up. . . if i'm a colts fan, i don't mind seeing coyer come in, but don't hold your breath-- i'd say the odds of him working miracles while you're relying on UDFAs starting in the middle of your D-line are relatively slim. . . .

Shazam!
01-21-2009, 02:17 AM
I think Coyer was a pretty good DC. I think Shanahan shackled him and sabotaged him.

If your DLine has mediocre talent, is small in comparison to the opposition, a complete joke and can't generate any pressure, what do you do? You throw the kitchen sink! Sure, you'll get burned in these gambles, but when you DO get to the QB you're looking at INTs and TO's.

You can't send four guys the whole game and expect to get there. And when you show blitz constantly and then don't, good AFC QBs ain't gonna bite, let alone be scared. Denver became almost afraid to blitz. That's when the D really hit rock bottom, and with the loss of leadership w/o Lynch and Wilson.

Thanks Mike!

Coyer will be ok.

Lonestar
01-21-2009, 03:04 AM
Dog you hit the nail on the head..

He was a brilliant chess player and built schemes that pretty much shut down the offense till about middle of the second period and by half time the other teams had adjusted and he had not way to change on the fly..

also mikey needed another scapegoat and really wanted his butt buddy as DC so coyer had to go and slowish was promoted..

If the guy could have made adjustment to the adjustments then he could have been one of the best IF mikey would have drafted talent to keep them going..

LordTrychon
01-21-2009, 04:14 AM
The grass is greener.

Don't let them fool you into thinking that he was great.

Shanahan may have let one of his better coordinators go in Coyer...

But the majority of fans were very pleased with it.

Dirk
01-21-2009, 06:51 AM
The obvious goes without saying about Slowick and his bottom of the barrel defenses. But Coyer had a middle of the pack ranking with his defensive work.

As has been mentioned. I think with Shanny having control over player personel and such, it hampered Coyer and his ability to do what he needed to. Shanny has always been about small and quick...which doesn't always pan out as we Broncos fans have seen.....

Northman
01-21-2009, 06:59 AM
Hard to say. Was Coyer better than Bates and Slowick? Probably. Coyer had some success with his defense in Denver and Tampa but in both instances the defenses folded down the stretch. So right now i would say be a little worried if you guys sign him. You dont want your defense to take a nosedive towards playoff time.

Zweems56
01-21-2009, 07:07 AM
Hard to say. Was Coyer better than Bates and Slowick? Probably. Coyer had some success with his defense in Denver and Tampa but in both instances the defenses folded down the stretch. So right now i would say be a little worried if you guys sign him. You dont want your defense to take a nosedive towards playoff time.

I do

NameUsedBefore
01-21-2009, 09:39 AM
He ran a bend don't break system which is about as good as you're gonna get with the players he had. The system broke often against talented teams (aka, when it mattered) and Shanahan had enough. All his successors have ran similar systems with a minor alteration, that is the "break all the time" ones where it just sucks always.

broncofaninfla
01-21-2009, 09:43 AM
Honetsly, I never understood the firing. Coyer implemented schemes that put his players in postion to make plays, the players failed to execute at times. I think Manning destroying us played a part in this as well but again I'd put that on personel. I would have liked Coyer to have been more aggressive at times but all in all, I liked him as a DC.

Shazam!
01-21-2009, 09:52 AM
It was all about mediocre personnel. I don't care how good a DC is, with these rag-tag DLines Denver has fielded year after year.

Please remember this team took the whole DLine of a 3-13 Cleveland team.

LRtagger
01-21-2009, 09:57 AM
You can blame Coyer's demise on Shanahan IMO.

G_Money
01-21-2009, 10:56 AM
Coyer was not fired.

Coyer stopped blitzing in 06 and the defense wore down over the course of the year.

Shanahan wanted to fire some of the defensive staff but keep Coyer, but Larry refused to fire them and resigned rather than fire them.

Then, of course, Shanny fired many of them anyway.

And then after the back-to-back atrocious defenses we had, Coyer looked pretty good. He was always pretty good in scoring D. After going and learning some Tampa 2 from Kiffin as their DL coach, I’d say Coyer’s more than ready for another shot.

~G

broncofaninfla
01-21-2009, 11:05 AM
I would defeintely say Coyer is a step up from Meeks

topscribe
01-21-2009, 11:28 AM
Larry Coyer?

I ask this because he's rumored to be the Colts next DC also along with the Herm rumors

was he THAT bad or was he just one of Shanahans victims?

someone help me out here?

Coyer is a good coach. He did wonders with no more than the Broncos had . . .
certainly more than anybody since had.

I hate that he is joining the Colts. Their defense was instantly upgraded if he
indeed has agreed to join them.

-----

underrated29
01-21-2009, 11:50 AM
Like most what i say isnt going to be that different.

Dogfish had it right first. Coyer, cannot adjust at all. Once a team has found a weakness they will go at it and coyer wont do anything about it. You will lose because of this.

Also, i was not a fan of coyer. His pass defenses will always suck against good passing teams. All or our losses came against teams that could throw the ball well. Ex. Indy you guys blew us out 2x, pitts in the afccg. I know there are more, but i cannot remember the teams that far back.

Point is- you will be good at stopping the run, and if he blitzes you will be better. But if a team finds a weakness or is a good passing team you will lose. BAR NONE.



Thats why even though our defense has gotten worse since he left i am still in favor of the descision. Because i believe we never would have made it to the big dance anyhow and would have just wasted a bunch ofyears and players trying but failing. This way with him gone we can start over and get someone who can make adjustments and can shut down the run or pass.



let me also add that TAMPA had him this year i think right? They had a good defense for a while, but then what happened? They fell apart and their defense collapsed. Teams find a weakness and once they do, its OVA!

Lonestar
01-21-2009, 12:30 PM
Let me add to all of this.. he would almost always play his DB's 5-7 yards deep on 3rd and 3 or 4.. thus guaranteeing the first down unless the WR just flat dropped the ball..

bend but don't break a farce I'd rather get beat deep once a game than allow the defense to nickle and dime them to death every time they have the ball.. no huevos coyer..

bcbronc
01-21-2009, 12:38 PM
a Colts fan needing to ask how effective Coyer was as a DC. priceless!

Lonestar
01-21-2009, 12:46 PM
a colts fan needing to ask how effective coyer was as a dc. Priceless!

Attention Deficit Disorder..

DenBronx
01-21-2009, 12:46 PM
Nolan > Coyer

DenBronx
01-21-2009, 12:50 PM
a Colts fan needing to ask how effective Coyer was as a DC. priceless!

I dont think we met the Colts in the playoffs in 2005. Nor did we even go in 2006. We did play them when we had Plummer and lost 34-31. So Coyer had nothing to do with the beatings we took before Coyer got here.

bcbronc
01-21-2009, 12:55 PM
I dont think we met the Colts in the playoffs in 2005. Nor did we even go in 2006. We did play them when we had Plummer and lost 34-31. So Coyer had nothing to do with the beatings we took before Coyer got here.


are you sure about that? I thought Coyer was DC for both of our playoff slaughters at the hands of Potatoe Head. :confused:

DenBronx
01-21-2009, 01:01 PM
are you sure about that? I thought Coyer was DC for both of our playoff slaughters at the hands of Potatoe Head. :confused:

my bad, yeah in 2003 and 2004. he was here 4 years i think. he was getting a little better but 2006 was a disgrace. then bates made it just as bad and then slowik just needed to jump off a cliff in Patagonia.

Slick
01-21-2009, 01:29 PM
If Coyer would have hand some talent on his D lines, he would have been more effective.

dog's point about halftime adjustments is a good one. There weren't any, and if a team stated beating us up in the trenches, the game was over. I don't blame Coyer for that.

You guys got a decent coordinator IMO. Not great, but decent.

LRtagger
01-21-2009, 02:15 PM
Let me add to all of this.. he would almost always play his DB's 5-7 yards deep on 3rd and 3 or 4.. thus guaranteeing the first down unless the WR just flat dropped the ball..

bend but don't break a farce I'd rather get beat deep once a game than allow the defense to nickle and dime them to death every time they have the ball.. no huevos coyer..

Sometimes I wonder if this is what Shanny wanted. Seems like we did this with the secondary regardless of who our DC was.

Tned
01-21-2009, 03:26 PM
The grass is greener.

Don't let them fool you into thinking that he was great.

Shanahan may have let one of his better coordinators go in Coyer...

But the majority of fans were very pleased with it.

Yes. In hindsite, fans speak rather well of Coyer, when he was DC they were brutal.

As to the reason why, that the OP asks, nobody seems to know for sure. Shanahan has said it wasn't for anything he did on the field, that he was a great coach. That has led to speculation. Some have speculate that Shanahan tried to have him fire some assistants and he refused (much the way some have now speculated that is why Shanahan was fired). However, from what I have seen, there is simply no actual details published for us to really know why he was fired.

Tned
01-21-2009, 03:27 PM
Let me add to all of this.. he would almost always play his DB's 5-7 yards deep on 3rd and 3 or 4.. thus guaranteeing the first down unless the WR just flat dropped the ball..

bend but don't break a farce I'd rather get beat deep once a game than allow the defense to nickle and dime them to death every time they have the ball.. no huevos coyer..

During part of his rein as DC, Slowick was the DB's coach. That was the case in '05 with the defensive melt down in the AFCCG.

gobroncsnv
01-21-2009, 10:35 PM
We never had a decent line, and the good teams were able to "adjust" to that. I don't blame Coyer a bit, because without pressure, our back 7 couldn't cover routes for 5 minutes per play.

Gamechanger
01-21-2009, 10:38 PM
looks like he's our DC now

http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/Colts_to_hire_Coyer

DenBronx
01-21-2009, 10:42 PM
looks like he's our DC now

http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/Colts_to_hire_Coyer

buawhahahahaha! now we're really going to shred your D.












































:D







































jk man, good luck! except when you play us of course.

Shazam!
01-21-2009, 10:44 PM
A DC is only as good as his personnel. I too, called for his head at one time. But when the neverending revolving door of Coordinators in Denver, it became obviously not just a Coaching liability, but a lack of talent.

Indy probably could've done worse though. Slowick?

Gamechanger
01-21-2009, 11:02 PM
buawhahahahaha! now we're really going to shred your D.












































:D







































jk man, good luck! except when you play us of course.


we'll just see, i think this could be a match made in heaven (I hope) I think we have the *better* personell and a pass rush that can get to any QB, we need to stop that damn run, and hopefully he'll bring the philosphy to TACKLE

but yea, may the best team win this year *us* :beer:

slim
01-21-2009, 11:03 PM
Coyer is a good coach...you could do worse.

Lonestar
01-21-2009, 11:08 PM
we'll just see, i think this could be a match made in heaven (I hope) I think we have the *better* personell and a pass rush that can get to any QB, we need to stop that damn run, and hopefully he'll bring the philosphy to TACKLE

but yea, may the best team win this year *us* :beer:

He is a great first half coach but once the OC makes adjustments at half time he can't re-adjust on the fly.. If he can he certainly did not do so in DEN

Lonestar
01-21-2009, 11:08 PM
Coyer is a good coach...you could do worse.

slowish

Gamechanger
01-21-2009, 11:24 PM
He is a great first half coach but once the OC makes adjustments at half time he can't re-adjust on the fly.. If he can he certainly did not do so in DEN

i think it may be some things with personell also as a few said, then again i'm giving him a chance, we may keep some Tammpa 2 philosophy and use the D to play with a lead like it did with Dungy

we'll just see though

slim
01-21-2009, 11:26 PM
slowish

Yeah, Bates and Slowik were much better :rolleyes:

Lonestar
01-22-2009, 01:27 AM
We never had a decent line, and the good teams were able to "adjust" to that. I don't blame Coyer a bit, because without pressure, our back 7 couldn't cover routes for 5 minutes per play.
it was his job to adjust..

Lonestar
01-22-2009, 01:28 AM
Yeah, Bates and Slowik were much better :rolleyes:

I think Bates might have done well if he would have been left alone.. but was on a really really short leash..

Shazam!
01-22-2009, 01:32 AM
Bates wanted to use his gap system when it wasn't suited to the personnel. You play to the strengths of what you have, you don't force your boys into a system that they can't use effectively. that's why Bates was a failure.

Not to mention again, ad nauseum, a DLine that is downright horrendous.

Lonestar
01-22-2009, 01:39 AM
Bates wanted to use his gap system when it wasn't suited to the personnel. You play to the strengths of what you have, you don't force your boys into a system that they can't use effectively. that's why Bates was a failure.

Not to mention again, ad nauseum, a DLine that is downright horrendous.


for that matter all of mikeys DL have sucked it up.. none great for that matter even good..

HE liked LBs to do the clean up work and get the glory..

Nature Boy
01-22-2009, 01:56 AM
The Defense was leaps and bounds better with Coyer than with what Jim Bates tried to implement.

Shanahan's downfall with the Broncos started with firing Larry Coyer then inserting Jay Cutler way to early causing us to miss the 2006 playoffs.

.

Shazam!
01-22-2009, 01:59 AM
Shanahan's downfall with the Broncos started with firing Greg Robinson then inserting Brian Griese, and bringing Plummer here and thinking he would be the answer at QB...

Edited as I see it.

Nature Boy
01-22-2009, 08:18 AM
Edited as I see it.


We did go to the AFCCG in 2005 so I'll start from there. Anything before that was way to early as the guy just won back to back SB. Yes, B2B will take you pretty far.

.

broncofaninfla
01-22-2009, 09:10 AM
I think you guys wil be improved on defense with Coyer. IMO, you got a good one.

bcbronc
01-22-2009, 01:25 PM
He is a great first half coach but once the OC makes adjustments at half time he can't re-adjust on the fly.. If he can he certainly did not do so in DEN

the one thing Coyer will have in Indy that he didn't have in Denver is an offense that can get the job done. I was in the pro-Plummer camp, but our offense always sputtered in big games.

second thing Coyer will have, a dline that can legitimately get to the QB. his system won't be so easy to adjust to when he's getting some heat with from a four man rush.

I don't think Coyer is the worst DC in the league. he's solid. All the same, I'm glad he's someone elses DC and not ours.

Nature Boy
01-22-2009, 01:29 PM
I was in the pro-Plummer camp, but our offense always sputtered in big games.





Don't forget, Jake Plummer played with a LT that was doped out most the time and we wondered why he didn't have but 2 seconds to get rid of the ball.

I still feel sorry for Jake Plummer. He did not get a fair shake and in that was the downfall of Mikey as well.

We missed the 2006 playoffs because of it. Thanks Matt Lepsis.

.

Lonestar
01-22-2009, 01:40 PM
the one thing Coyer will have in Indy that he didn't have in Denver is an offense that can get the job done. I was in the pro-Plummer camp, but our offense always sputtered in big games.

second thing Coyer will have, a dline that can legitimately get to the QB. his system won't be so easy to adjust to when he's getting some heat with from a four man rush.

I don't think Coyer is the worst DC in the league. he's solid. All the same, I'm glad he's someone elses DC and not ours.


It did not always sputter, mostly only in the red zones and when it was 3rd and short.. and that IMO was from a lack of size on the OLINE to get those tough yards.. Also the quality of RB's was not much to write home about for the most part..

there is a huge difference in Having to pass (about 60% efficiency) and the the defense knowing it.. for most of those years Jake had ONE option Rod as a possession receiver.. and then there was PUTZ a decent to good TE but the best we had towards the end....

We have had red zone problems since Zimmerman and company retired or moved on..

Bozo Jr.
01-22-2009, 01:52 PM
Didn't we set, and then tie the record for consecutive quarters, (11), without giving up a TD while under Coyer. That was amazing!

bcbronc
01-22-2009, 02:32 PM
It did not always sputter, mostly only in the red zones and when it was 3rd and short.. and that IMO was from a lack of size on the OLINE to get those tough yards.. Also the quality of RB's was not much to write home about for the most part..

there is a huge difference in Having to pass (about 60% efficiency) and the the defense knowing it.. for most of those years Jake had ONE option Rod as a possession receiver.. and then there was PUTZ a decent to good TE but the best we had towards the end....

We have had red zone problems since Zimmerman and company retired or moved on..

meh, water under the bridge and say what you want. but facts are, when our defense needed a break to catch their breath or simply regroup, our offense rarely came up with a big third down conversion or a long drive.

I'm not talking every game of the season. but down the stretch and into the playoffs, too often our defense never left the field in the first half. by the time the boys were eating their orange wedges, the game was over.

Lonestar
01-22-2009, 02:37 PM
meh, water under the bridge and say what you want. but facts are, when our defense needed a break to catch their breath or simply regroup, our offense rarely came up with a big third down conversion or a long drive.

I'm not talking every game of the season. but down the stretch and into the playoffs, too often our defense never left the field in the first half. by the time the boys were eating their orange wedges, the game was over.

pretty much correct here.. but having a light weight but fast everyone (both sides of the LOS) late in the year they wear down as much if not more than the bigger teams.. no reserve to fall back on..

fast is nice but if you can't make the block or get off it then speed means nothing..