Did anything get answered?

[wayninja]

As always, the big question is "will Elway endorse Tebow to be the starter in 2012?"

We know Elway is looking for higher completion percentages and higher 3rd down conversion rates. I think the former was better tonight, but not sure about the latter.

Do you think any headway was made in determining whether or not Elway will feel comfortable with TT leading the team in 2012? Is this another Jets "push" where we win, but it's 'ugly' and we aren't any closer?

[Agent of Orange]

The bigger question is whether we got lucky that Novak doesn't make every single 50+ yard field goal, especially since he kicked a 53 yarder earlier--and it was his career long.

Additionally, on that same token, another bigger question is whether or not we were lucky that Philip Rivers didn't complete every pass that he threw.

[wayninja]

The bigger question is whether we got lucky that Novak doesn't make every single 50+ yard field goal, especially since he kicked a 53 yarder earlier--and it was his career long.

Additionally, on that same token, another bigger question is whether or not we were lucky that Philip Rivers didn't complete every pass that he threw.

Ok. I'm going to just assume you posted in the wrong thread. Thanks for trying though.

[Chris90210]

Tim is getting better..... But the jury is still out ad will be until the end of the season

[karnage]

maybe we'll get lucky and no one will ask him this week....and in honor of of the Hotcarl thread I just read.....what **** yes tastes like Garfield bbbbeeeeeppppp

[Bullgator]

OMG not another TT thread... This is getting redonkulous.

Sneak blast this thread with a double barrel kitty beat down, show this ballswinger how we hannel things round here mang.

[wayninja]

OMG not another TT thread... This is getting redonkulous.

Sneak blast this thread with a double barrel kitty beat down, show this ballswinger how we hannel things round here mang.

The moratorium was only in effect until 11/27. Not sure how you missed that.

BTW, what else would someone like you have to talk about since you are a self admitted Tebow fan and non-Bronco fan?

[Bullgator]

The moratorium was only in effect until 11/27. Not sure how you missed that.

BTW, what else would someone like you have to talk about since you are a self admitted Tebow fan and non-Bronco fan?

Well we can talk about the virtual extinction of the Dung Beetle in Africa... They are dying out on account of the lack of poop from the starving populous. Sad really.

[wayninja]

Well we can talk about the virtual extinction of the Dung Beetle in Africa... They are dying out on account of the lack of poop from the starving populous. Sad really.

I see what you are saying. Tebow isn't really cutting it as an NFL caliber quarterback and is being exposed as a sham front to what our defense is doing.

[Bullgator]

I see what you are saying. Tebow isn't really cutting it as an NFL caliber quarterback and is being exposed as a sham front to what our defense is doing.

Exactly. If I was your FO I would ship him out... say... to.... Jacksonville. Plus he once farted at the podium... so yea...

[wayninja]

Exactly. If I was your FO I would ship him out... say... to.... Jacksonville. Plus he once farted at the podium... so yea...

Sadly, I don't think Jacksonville would take him. They have a much better prospect in Blaine Gabbart. We would have to give up pick after pick just to get an even trade.

[Bullgator]

Sadly, I don't think Jacksonville would take him. They have a much better prospect in Blaine Gabbart. We would have to give up pick after pick just to get an even trade.

Blane is a world beater... You got me there... but rumor has is he spanks baby seals... sexually.

[wayninja]

Blane is a world beater... You got me there...

Yep. Blaine Gabbart rules Tebow. You got that right my friend. I'm not sure what we can do with the kid but dump him and try our hand with whatever pickins' are left at QB in the first round.

BTW, you aren't a Bronco fan, and you are a shitty Tebow fan at best... I'm a bit curious as to why you stick around here?

[wayninja]

Tim is getting better..... But the jury is still out ad will be until the end of the season

That's true as far as public opinion goes, but it seems like the opinion that matters most is Elways. What do you think he made of the game? We saw him on the sidelines fist bumping (when was the last time you saw that???). Is that for show or was he pumped?

[Bullgator]

Yep. Blaine Gabbart rules Tebow. You got that right my friend. I'm not sure what we can do with the kid but dump him and try our hand with whatever pickins' are left at QB in the first round.

I hear the Cheffs are going to cut Kyle Orton tomorrow, maybe the Broncs can pick him up for a box of mothballs and some herpes.

[dogfish]

Bullgator - Wayninja steel cage match

on pay per view. . .


yea. . .

make it happen!

[wayninja]

Bullgator - Wayninja steel cage match

on pay per view. . .


yea. . .

make it happen!

Sorry to disappoint, but I've already enacted ignore protocol. I only have so much patience for arguing with self admitted Tebow-only fans.

[dogfish]

Sorry to disappoint, but I've already enacted ignore protocol. I only have so much patience for arguing with self admitted Tebow-only fans.

oh, come on. . . think of the children!

[Bullgator]

Bullgator - Wayninja steel cage match

on pay per view. . .


yea. . .

make it happen!

Hes dodging me Hop... like Mayweather is dodging Pacquiao.

Ignore = skurred

[Bullgator]

oh, come on. . . think of the children!

And the Dung Beetles! They could survive extinction on Way's bullshit indefinitely...

[broncosfannum24]

He's making progress, he's getting better by each game u can tell, people say he can't throw the guy has only started 9 games in his whole career,where guys like blaine and bradford that are the typical everything you want qbs still struggling throwing the ball, what do people expect out of tebow a probowler?
How can any qb be good when throwing only on third downs when the whole stadium knows your about to throw, not to mention no one talks about the drop passes he has every single game its ridicolous, dont say the guy cant throw , hes only played 9 games people lol

[dogfish]

in regards to the original question, it's almost impossible to say. . .

how will we know?

who here has read dune, or anything political? how does it benefit elway to come right out and endorse tim as our QB, when we can maintain doubt about our intentions in the draft by not doing so?

how many QBs did we scout last year? how many did we draft?


from MY perspective, i said after last week that i was ready to see another year of tebow. . . my gut says that fox and elway feel the same way after seeing the team win, but tim himself will be the first to admit that he still needs to improve quite a bit as a passer. . .

i do think we'll very likely still draft a quarterback at some point, unless the FO is sold on weber as our second developmental prospect, and decides to sign a vet as the third QB. . . but, i would assume that it will probably be a mid-round pick, or even later in a draft that looks pretty deep at the position. . . i'm guessing most reasonable people would agree that tebow has shown enough in terms of intangibles and clutch play to at the very least warrant a full off-season of proper development to see how much his accuracy can come around with some attention to his footwork, and improved timing with his young receivers. . .

at worst, IF his passing doesn't come around and he proves incapable of sustaining the wins, it doesn't exactly set us back that far to pass on a second-tier QB this year. . . it still helps us if we hit on a CB, OL, DL, MLB or RB with our top couple picks. . . we've already won too many games to be in range of the premiere QB prospects this year, with all the QB-needy teams ahead of us. . . nothing wrong with drafting a guy at some point to provide competition, and/or be groomed as a backup. . . but i'd rather take the best athlete on our board with our first few picks this year. . . if tim ultimately flops, maybe we'll be in better draft position for a legit blue chip prospect-- or, maybe we make a trade for a player like matt flynn, the way houston acquired schaub. . .

no way to know for sure, but despite what may be said between now and draft time, i kinda suspect the FO feels the same way. . . tough decision-- tebow's unconventional style isn't the easiest to embrace as an exec, because the question will always be there as to just how far you can go playing that way. . . it will be an open question until it's been proven conclusively one way or the other. . .


hey, at least it's a lot more entertaining than ****in' ortonball!

[SoCalImport]

The dropped passes stand out when it's Tebow because he just doesn't throw much. IMHO 15 has show some improvement in his throws and his decision making. I actually don't cringe when he sets up in the pocket because I'm pretty confident that if the coverage is there he won't throw it.
That being said, I've seen a number of times when the coverage has allowed for a high % pass and Tebow just hasn't seen it develop or hesitates too long. I do see improvement in his overall passing game though.

[SoCalImport]

how does it benefit elway to come right out and endorse tim as our QB, when we can maintain doubt about our intentions in the draft by not doing so?

from MY perspective, i said after last week that i was ready to see another year of tebow. . . my gut says that fox and elway feel the same way after seeing the team win, but tim himself will be the first to admit that he still needs to improve quite a bit as a passer. . .

hey, at least it's a lot more entertaining than ****in' ortonball!


I'd say Hoptard pretty well nailed it.

[Ziggy]

There were 2 passes dropped on critical 3rd downs that were right in the receivers hands. This was Tebow's best day as a passer by far this season.

[Dzone]

Tebow looks like he is going to be fine. Hopefully we can use early draft picks on other needs.

[catfish]

I don't think there is any reason to commit to Tebow without seeing how the rest of the season plays out. I don't see any benefit of making any statements as to the future of Tebow one way or the other at this time as there is potential that it will come back and bit you in the ass

[Fullback32]

On Sirius NFL this morning, Solomon Wilcotts addressed that very question. He said that, obviously, Tebow is the QB for the rest of this season barring injury. In the off season, he expects that Elway will still scout for a QB that can run a more traditional offense. They will still work on improving Tebows throwing and the rookie can push Tebow toward that end. I also think this is what Elway will do.

I am glad that the Broncos found a way to win. Once again, the defense stepped it up and is playing exceptionally well. Tebow has gotten better at passing, but is still missing or not seeing wide open receivers. Two that stood out to me was a miss to a wide open Willis in the end zone. Tebow hits that and the game never goes into overtime. The other was in OT and he had a very open receiver WAVING at him in the middle (can't remember who it was) and Tebow never saw him. If the passing game was better, the Broncos are blowing teams up.

9 of 18 for 143 is not a "decent day." Too many overthrown or not even close balls. The dropped balls were bad though. C'mon receivers, Tebow is under enough scrutiny without you guys dropping balls that he does successfully get to you. Help the guy out will ya?

Still, no style points in the NFL and wins are good.

[catfish]

On Sirius NFL this morning, Solomon Wilcotts addressed that very question. He said that, obviously, Tebow is the QB for the rest of this season barring injury. In the off season, he expects that Elway will still scout for a QB that can run a more traditional offense. They will still work on improving Tebows throwing and the rookie can push Tebow toward that end. I also think this is what Elway will do.

I am glad that the Broncos found a way to win. Once again, the defense stepped it up and is playing exceptionally well. Tebow has gotten better at passing, but is still missing or not seeing wide open receivers. Two that stood out to me was a miss to a wide open Willis in the end zone. Tebow hits that and the game never goes into overtime. The other was in OT and he had a very open receiver WAVING at him in the middle (can't remember who it was) and Tebow never saw him. If the passing game was better, the Broncos are blowing teams up.

9 of 18 for 143 is not a "decent day." Too many overthrown or not even close balls. The dropped balls were bad though. C'mon receivers, Tebow is under enough scrutiny without you guys dropping balls that he does successfully get to you. Help the guy out will ya?

Still, no style points in the NFL and wins are good.

I am having trouble coming up with more than maybe 1 pass that could be considered way off...which passes are you referring to?

[FlyByU]

As always, the big question is "will Elway endorse Tebow to be the starter in 2012?"

We know Elway is looking for higher completion percentages and higher 3rd down conversion rates. I think the former was better tonight, but not sure about the latter.

Do you think any headway was made in determining whether or not Elway will feel comfortable with TT leading the team in 2012? Is this another Jets "push" where we win, but it's 'ugly' and we aren't any closer?

Nope not until we are 9-7 if that happens most good QB's in the draft will be gone before we get to them. Also if we get to 9-7 that pretty much forces Elway to stay with TT for next year or at least common sense would dictate that. However I am still waiting on the FO to have common sense as it lost it's senses when they fired Shanny and have lead us down the wrong road for several years since.

[Fullback32]

Actually catfish, you're right. Of the nine incompletions, there were only one or two you could say that were nowhere near the receiver. Two were clear drops. One missed pass interference call on a ball Decker should have otherwise caught. Three others that were at the feet or over the head. That accounts for the nine.

The TD pass was nice.

[catfish]

favorite quote of the day

"Watching Tim Tebow play quarterback is like getting a root canal at a strip club"

[catfish]

Actually catfish, you're right. Of the nine incompletions, there were only one or two you could say that were nowhere near the receiver. Two were clear drops. One missed pass interference call on a ball Decker should have otherwise caught. Three others that were at the feet or over the head. That accounts for the nine.

The TD pass was nice.

hope it didn't feel like I was calling you out...I am an admitted Tebow homer and sometimes my opinions of pass quality are shaded because of that. I always try to go back and look if someone sees something different than I do and thought this might be the case

[Fullback32]

hope it didn't feel like I was calling you out...I am an admitted Tebow homer and sometimes my opinions of pass quality are shaded because of that. I always try to go back and look if someone sees something different than I do and thought this might be the case

No, not at all. On the other side of the coin, I am so used to baggin' on Tebow, it made me rethink what I had said. :laugh:

[DenBronx]

I tweeted Stephen A Smith last night because he is one of TTs biggest haters.




DenBronx (Ryan)

@stephenasmith Bro, get a clue!!! Tim Tebow is an NFL QB!! And all he does is WIN!!


Here is his response.

stephenasmith Stephen A Smith

@DenBronx Pul-leeze

Nov 28, 8:01 AM via HootSuite

[NightTerror218]

Nope not until we are 9-7 if that happens most good QB's in the draft will be gone before we get to them. Also if we get to 9-7 that pretty much forces Elway to stay with TT for next year or at least common sense would dictate that. However I am still waiting on the FO to have common sense as it lost it's senses when they fired Shanny and have lead us down the wrong road for several years since.

TT goes to SB, elway might get behind him.

[catfish]

interesting breakdown of read option

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2011/11/28/2591195/tim-tebow-option-denver-broncos

[NightTerror218]

"With the toothy smile that made him almost as famous as his big right arm, Elway offered Tebow congratulations near midfield during the victory celebration.

Coming from the biggest legend in Broncos history, this qualified as more than a slap on the back for Tebow. It was a seal of approval."

From Kiszla article
http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_19423660

I think Elway is warming up to him as a QB but very slowly

[slim]

interesting breakdown of read option

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2011/11/28/2591195/tim-tebow-option-denver-broncos

I saw a few teams breakout a little bit of the read option this week.

TB brought in Josh Johnson to run it....I can't remember the other game I saw it in.

[Dreadnought]

Somewhere there is a guy, alone by himself, with a whole collection of pictures of handsome young PAC-10 QB's, sobbing softly in the quiet dark. He dreams of what might have been, if only this oversized SEC oaf would stop winning so many damned football games. Its all wrong, its all so wrong...don't they see?! Haven't they watched his absurd throwing motion?!

[Joel]

Two questions were answered:

Q) Can Tebow complete 50% of his passes despite the dropsy epidemic?
A) Yes.

Q) Can the Broncos beat a team that shuts down Tebows rushing?
A) Yes.

[wayninja]

It's kind of ironic. Tebow did loads better passing this week, but his running attack seemed to lack the fire/explosiveness it had previously. Maybe I'm reaching here, but it seems like he was lumbering a bit on some of those runs. I don't know...

We got a win and I don't really care how it works as long as it does, I just hope the kid isn't beat up.

[Dreadnought]

It's kind of ironic. Tebow did loads better passing this week, but his running attack seemed to lack the fire/explosiveness it had previously. Maybe I'm reaching here, but it seems like he was lumbering a bit on some of those runs. I don't know...

We got a win and I don't really care how it works as long as it does, I just hope the kid isn't beat up.

I think the Chargers may have been so concerned with containing Tebow that they forgot to pressure him. He had remarkable amounts of time to throw

[wayninja]

I think the Chargers may have been so concerned with containing Tebow that they forgot to pressure him. He had remarkable amounts of time to throw

Yeah, it was really nice to see him actually hang out in the pocket as long as they were going to give it to him instead of just panicking after that internal alarm surely was going off and running...

If I were more prone to conspiracy theories, I might actually believe they purposefully gave him that time because they felt he would make a mistake that would lead to a turnover... but that seems crazy, even for me.

[Joel]

It's kind of ironic. Tebow did loads better passing this week, but his running attack seemed to lack the fire/explosiveness it had previously. Maybe I'm reaching here, but it seems like he was lumbering a bit on some of those runs. I don't know...

We got a win and I don't really care how it works as long as it does, I just hope the kid isn't beat up.
The Bolts did what every team has done since Tebow took over: Load the box, play the option and dare him to beat them with his arm. The good news for SD was that, unlike every other team, they actually DID manage to stop Tebow running, and most of McGahees option runs (most of his best runs were between the tackles, including the first and last ones in OT.) The bad news was that, unlike every other team, Tebow beat them with his arm (and more good D, though the Bolts had more success against it than most teams; still might have won if Miller doesn't get the 4 yard loss before the FG try.) 9/18 for 141, 1 TD and 0 Ints may not be a banner day, but it's nothing to be ashamed of, a lot better statistically than Rivers did.

Tebow has gotten better at passing, but is still missing or not seeing wide open receivers. Two that stood out to me was a miss to a wide open Willis in the end zone. Tebow hits that and the game never goes into overtime. The other was in OT and he had a very open receiver WAVING at him in the middle (can't remember who it was) and Tebow never saw him. If the passing game was better, the Broncos are blowing teams up.
I believe it was Fells; I could not help thinking it's bad when Fouts sees our open receivers better from the booth than Tebow sees them on the field. :redface: I concur on both your points; the accuracy is getting good, but he isn't seeing all his options, even when the line gives him obscene amounts of time. I'm glad Decker had a good day receiving, and realize our receiving talent drops off a lot after him, but Tebow still zones in on him too much; at least he isn't throwing picks into double coverage when the D sees that, too. There were a couple times I thought he tucked it away and took off too soon, but he's gotten MUCH better at stopping and scanning the field when he doesn't immediately have an open man, rather than just bolting downfield.

I liked the playcalling better, especially late in the game; I'd still like to see more first down passes, if only so we can run delay draws on second or third and long, but there were a few, and a number of them looked good. We didn't just keep running option despite them stuffing it all day long, we saw that they were playing option and started taking advantage of open men downfield, which is what got us to OT where McGahee and our offensive line won it.

[NightTerror218]

It's kind of ironic. Tebow did loads better passing this week, but his running attack seemed to lack the fire/explosiveness it had previously. Maybe I'm reaching here, but it seems like he was lumbering a bit on some of those runs. I don't know...

We got a win and I don't really care how it works as long as it does, I just hope the kid isn't beat up.

some of his passes were very nice looking passes, no wobble in them at all.

[catfish]

It's kind of ironic. Tebow did loads better passing this week, but his running attack seemed to lack the fire/explosiveness it had previously. Maybe I'm reaching here, but it seems like he was lumbering a bit on some of those runs. I don't know...

We got a win and I don't really care how it works as long as it does, I just hope the kid isn't beat up.

IMO he looked sick...I can't recall ever seeing him sit on the bench with his head down. Looked pale, dunno could be reading too much into it

[Superchop 7]

Yep. Blaine Gabbart rules Tebow. You got that right my friend. I'm not sure what we can do with the kid but dump him and try our hand with whatever pickins' are left at QB in the first round.

BTW, you aren't a Bronco fan, and you are a shitty Tebow fan at best... I'm a bit curious as to why you stick around here?
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________

Outside of the top 4 QB prospects.....all you have is projects.

If your going to have a project type QB....do "not" invest a 1 or a 2.

The 1 and 2 pick should be to help out the guy you already have starting.

Try to find the next Shannon Sharpe, try to find a compliment to McGahee, upgrade the guard position.

I really don't want a project QB, I want Gase's time spent with Tebow.

[wayninja]

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________

Outside of the top 4 QB prospects.....all you have is projects.

If your going to have a project type QB....do "not" invest a 1 or a 2.

The 1 and 2 pick should be to help out the guy you already have starting.

Try to find the next Shannon Sharpe, try to find a compliment to McGahee, upgrade the guard position.

I really don't want a project QB, I want Gase's time spent with Tebow.

In case it wasn't obvious, those aren't my true feelings on Blaine and Tebow, I was only attempting to keep the thread from being hijacked/derailed.

[rcsodak]

I think the Chargers may have been so concerned with containing Tebow that they forgot to pressure him. He had remarkable amounts of time to throw
2 temas brought constant pressure. Both won in blowout fashion.

Hmmmmm.........pattern?

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[wayninja]

2 temas brought constant pressure. Both won in blowout fashion.

Hmmmmm.........pattern?

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Sorry... what?

[Bullgator]

Sorry... what?

RC is just being a debby downer again... hes saying the two teams that blew out the Broncos brought heavy pressure on the QB...

he failed to mention that 1 was on Orton and the other was the old offense that we ran, not the newer Option read, spread, which eliminates alot of the pressure... how many sacks did TT take since the detroit game?

[G_Money]

I just remember Elway's quote from his playing days about not really being someone's teammate unless they can have a beer with him. He was a good ol' boy, if one can go to Stanford and be such.

Elway was not a vocal leader. He let other guys talk in the locker room. John did it on the field. In some ways, I think THAT's what he appreciates about Tebow. I don't think he understands Tebow off the field at all. Tebow's private life is 9 worlds of alien to John.

But being a leader on the field? Tebow's got THAT, and Elway had it, and as long as Tebow can present it in a way that Elway gets, and can SEE echoed in the rest of the team...

He can get his head around the idea of backing Tebow and hoping to see more 3rd down production and consistent passing.

~G

[wayninja]

some of his passes were very nice looking passes, no wobble in them at all.

I agree that his passing looking relatively better and some balls were simply beautiful looking, but there were a few with some wobble.

I'm happy as long as he is improving and he is.

[G_Money]

Eh, Rivers wobbled some passes too.

And that TD pass by Tim after the lookoff and pump fake to the receiver in the flat was a thing of beauty.

It's not that Tebow can't throw a good pass, it's that he doesn't throw enough of them, consistently. He seemed confident in the pocket this game - possibly because the Chargers were so scared to death of him running that they simply would not commit guys to pressure him - and should have had 3 or 4 more completions.

If he plays every game from the pocket like that, I won't have many complaints. No picks, no major problem throws, dirted one ball right off the bat and then was in a pretty decent rhythm most of the game.

If we'd run the zone-stretch a bit more often on first and 2nd instead of trying to crush the RB into the middle of a line stuffed with 320 pound DL, it might get easier to convert those 3rd downs.

Though I was stoked to see we remembered how to run a slant, even if we did it with a RB. Give Tebow a 7 yard slant more often - and teach him how to hit it - and this offense might be able to go up and down a field more than twice a game.

~G

[MOtorboat]

Nothing should be decided at this point.

Elway's job is to evaluate a body of work, and then to assess where to move using that assessment in the future. The assessment should NEVER be made until the end of the season.

That's why it's perfectly OK for Fox to talk about going all in with Tebow and it's also perfectly OK for Elway to say he hasn't made a decision yet. That's because it's Fox's job to win games every week and it's Elway's job to look long term.

[Locnar]

If we could put up 30 points a game with Tebow I think Elway would feel a lot better about keeping him in. Elway wants to win a Superbowl. Just getting into the playoffs isn't good enough. And you aren't going to win a Superbowl when you only average 16 points a game(or whatever we are averaging). And yes I know Baltimore won with defense. But todays game is a little different with explosive offenses like GB, NO, and NE. As good as our defense is getting, I still think we can be exposed at times when we aren't putting enough pressure on the QB. And then you have Breez, Brady, and Rodgers that will pick us apart when we start blitzing them.

But a lot of this is on playcalling too. We have to realize that our constant running isn't going to give us a ton of points, so we need a little more balance with a good passing attack. I would love to see our TE's get involved a lot more (if they can hang on to the ball after the catch).

One things for sure though. At least there hasn't been hardly any turnovers with Tebow. Because 1 interception on this team could be the difference between a win and a loss.

[Ravage!!!]

as to the topic..Elway is looking for more than just "higher completions." He's looking at athe QB position as a whole.

I don't think we'll get a better idea of that yet...but the kind of offense isn't helping him. I don't think John is going to get rid of Tebow, no matter what. No sense doing that. Even if we draft a QB, you let them compete for the starting role.

But Tebow will have had most of a season to learn to play QB, and then the offseason. I dont think the Broncos will move forward with the PLANS to build around a college, run first, offense. It wouldn't make sense too. So I think we keep Tebow through next year, giving him a chance to compete for the starting role in a professional style offense.

[Ravage!!!]

I think the Chargers may have been so concerned with containing Tebow that they forgot to pressure him. He had remarkable amounts of time to throw

Yeah... a couple of times I think he had 12 seconds to find soeone to throw to. I was like "DAMN!" He was looking like Tom Brady back there with all that time. Its easy to look comfortable in the pocket when the other team remains 5 yrds away from you.

[Joel]

as to the topic..Elway is looking for more than just "higher completions." He's looking at athe QB position as a whole.

I don't think we'll get a better idea of that yet...but the kind of offense isn't helping him. I don't think John is going to get rid of Tebow, no matter what. No sense doing that. Even if we draft a QB, you let them compete for the starting role.

But Tebow will have had most of a season to learn to play QB, and then the offseason. I dont think the Broncos will move forward with the PLANS to build around a college, run first, offense. It wouldn't make sense too. So I think we keep Tebow through next year, giving him a chance to compete for the starting role in a professional style offense.
Right, we're running the option now because our QB has never been trained to run a pro style passing offense and we don't have the luxury of time to teach him in the middle of a playoff chase (the Broncos are in a playoff chase.... *pauses to reflect on that*)

Anyone who thinks we'll still be doing it after Tebow's spent an off season watching game tape of opposing defences and our receivers, plus an Elway mini-camp, is insane. Just because a lot of talking heads have repudiated their "Tebow will never be a pro winner" to embrace the Tebois doesn't mean they have any more idea what they're talking about than previously.

[G_Money]

I expect to run the read-option some next year and for the foreseeable future, actually. Even if only for a few plays a game if it keeps one defender from being able to get anywhere near the ball carrier because he has to watch out for Tebow then it's a useful tool.

We won't use it nearly as much going forward, but it'll definitely still be in the game plan. Tebow running it HAS to be in the game plan, because it works.

~G

[NightTerror218]

I expect to run the read-option some next year and for the foreseeable future, actually. Even if only for a few plays a game if it keeps one defender from being able to get anywhere near the ball carrier because he has to watch out for Tebow then it's a useful tool.

We won't use it nearly as much going forward, but it'll definitely still be in the game plan. Tebow running it HAS to be in the game plan, because it works.

~G

I think it will become a more PA like I have saw last game. And cut down TT runs. But he will always remain a running threat. I love that during passing plays he has a spy and sometimes another LB containing the outside. 2 less players in the mix for coverage.

[catfish]

I think it will become a more PA like I have saw last game. And cut down TT runs. But he will always remain a running threat. I love that during passing plays he has a spy and sometimes another LB containing the outside. 2 less players in the mix for coverage.

I posted an article from itsalloverfatman.com in a new thread where they discuss how the offense has evolved in the last few weeks...its an interesting read they say while Denver is running zone-read plays it is far from an option offense

[Cugel]

That's true as far as public opinion goes, but it seems like the opinion that matters most is Elways. What do you think he made of the game? We saw him on the sidelines fist bumping (when was the last time you saw that???). Is that for show or was he pumped?

Elway wants the Broncos to win of course. He has to be encouraged that Tebow threw a bit better in this game than in previous games (he could hardly have thrown worse).

But, as far as becoming a pocket passing QB who occasionally runs out of the pocket (like Aaron Rogers does)? Elway is still skeptical. He's just been burned so much by the Teboners that he's being VERY careful what he says in public.

I suppose if the Broncos make the playoffs it will be hard to simply jettison Tebow but he can still draft a QB.

[catfish]

Elway wants the Broncos to win of course. He has to be encouraged that Tebow threw a bit better in this game than in previous games (he could hardly have thrown worse).

But, as far as becoming a pocket passing QB who occasionally runs out of the pocket (like Aaron Rogers does)? Elway is still skeptical. He's just been burned so much by the Teboners that he's being VERY careful what he says in public.

I suppose if the Broncos make the playoffs it will be hard to simply jettison Tebow but he can still draft a QB.

and should...the question is what style, what round

[Bullgator]

I expect to run the read-option some next year and for the foreseeable future, actually. Even if only for a few plays a game if it keeps one defender from being able to get anywhere near the ball carrier because he has to watch out for Tebow then it's a useful tool.

We won't use it nearly as much going forward, but it'll definitely still be in the game plan. Tebow running it HAS to be in the game plan, because it works.

~G

Well Don't forget it also eliminates pressure. How many sacks has Teebs taken since the change?

You have to have great gap discipline and awareness to not get gashed by the Read option... that means you dont blitz nearly as much... instead you have to wait in those gaps... this allows for play action without doods in his face.

I agree that as long as Tebow is QB there will always be a Read Option element. But the the better he gets at passing the more 50 rushes will be cut down... I think around 35-40 rushes with about 25-30 passes would be ideal.

[Bullgator]

and should...the question is what style, what round

If Tebow keeps winning, goes deep into the playoffs then you get a dual threat in the third or so... you need someone who can learn and implement this style as a back up. And those type of QBs dont go very high generally. Cam Newton and Jake Locker being the exceptions.

Man I would LOVE to have Jake Locker as a back up QB for Tebow. Make it happen Fox.

[Cugel]

I think it will become a more PA like I have saw last game. And cut down TT runs. But he will always remain a running threat. I love that during passing plays he has a spy and sometimes another LB containing the outside. 2 less players in the mix for coverage.

There's a difference between being a "running threat" and running the option as your base offense.

Tebow will need to learn to be a pocket passing QB who has great accuracy -- who is also mobile and can get out of the pocket when a play breaks down and make something happen. In short, like Elway later in his career, when he was MOSTLY in the pocket but could also run when he had to.

He can't run the option as the base offense no matter how successful it is this year because he'll never last running the ball 250-300 times a year! He'd take too many hits and it only takes 1 kill shot on your QB to shorten your career.

The NFL is violent enough on QBs without that. But, paying a guy $9 million a year and training him for 3 years (at a cost of close to $26 million), and then he only lasts a few more years because he's getting hit like a RB -- that just makes no economic sense.

If Tebow can learn to be an accurate pocket passing QB then he can have a career in the NFL, otherwise not. No exceptions.

[Dreadnought]

I expect to run the read-option some next year and for the foreseeable future, actually. Even if only for a few plays a game if it keeps one defender from being able to get anywhere near the ball carrier because he has to watch out for Tebow then it's a useful tool.

We won't use it nearly as much going forward, but it'll definitely still be in the game plan. Tebow running it HAS to be in the game plan, because it works.

~G

The threat had the Chargers defense playing passive and scared. We didn't even run it that much IIR, but we created uncertainty and confusion and that is more often than not the best way to win ballgames

[Joel]

If Tebow keeps winning, goes deep into the playoffs then you get a dual threat in the third or so... you need someone who can learn and implement this style as a back up. And those type of QBs dont go very high generally. Cam Newton and Jake Locker being the exceptions.

Man I would LOVE to have Jake Locker as a back up QB for Tebow. Make it happen Fox.
This team does NOT go deep into the playoffs. The defences typical of the past decades successful AFC playoff teams are built around LBs as fast as they are powerful, and will DESTROY an option offense. The 4-7 Chargers did a pretty good job against it Sunday, but McGahee ran well enough between the tackles and Tebow passed well enough that, combined with another strong showing from our D, we won. If our D and Tebow pull off another shocker against the Pats I might change my playoff expectations, but as it stands I think they, the Steelers or Ravens would eat Tebow alive.

That said, I do agree with drafting a backup for Tebow who can execute the same kind of QB rushing plays he can. With the popularity of spread offense and 3-4s that primarily blitz it's probably not a bad idea anyway; part of what's led to the success of folks like Michael Vick is that pure pocket passers tend to get ripped apart these days. The obvious exception is still Peyton Manning, but most teams can't provide the quality of pass blocking he enjoys; however good his passes, a QB with no mobility is little more than a great big target in the modern NFL (see: Griese, Brian.)

The real bottom line though is that if you have a versatile balanced offense that passes and runs with equal frequency drafting a QB who requires you to throw out half your playbook is a waste. Whether it's the running or passing half of the playbook that eludes him is a trivial detail.

In the interest of time and space I won't quote Cugels post since it's easier and just as accurate to say I fully agree with every word of it.

[Cugel]

That said, I do agree with drafting a backup for Tebow who can execute the same kind of QB rushing plays he can. With the popularity of spread offense and 3-4s that primarily blitz it's probably not a bad idea anyway; part of what's led to the success of folks like Michael Vick is that pure pocket passers tend to get ripped apart these days. The obvious exception is still Peyton Manning, but most teams can't provide the quality of pass blocking he enjoys; however good his passes, a QB with no mobility is little more than a great big target in the modern NFL (see: Griese, Brian.)

The Broncos are VERY likely to draft a QB in the first round who will supplant Tebow as the starter at some point. UNLESS Elway becomes convinced that Tim will become an elite passing QB.

Naturally you want a QB who can move around a bit (like Jay Cutler) and can even run to evade the rush when necessary. You don't want a guy with all the mobility of an equestrian statute like Sage Rosenfels (or Kyle Orton). So, an Orton or Griese can't succeed unless you have a really great OL. And even then they will run into teams like the Giants who can blitz with only 4 DL and get inside pressure. And then what's the answer of an immobile QB like Orton? None.

But, passing ability comes first, not running. Tebow has it all backwards. He does the peripheral stuff extraordinarily well, but fails miserably at NFL QB 101 -- passing from the pocket. He did make a bit of progress against the Chargers so he has improved some this season.

Whether that will be enough remains to be seen. We'll know more when they play the Bears defense. Frankly, the ONLY really good defenses they've faced so far this year were the Lions and Packers -- and that didn't go well as you may recall. Denver is after all playing a last place schedule while the Chiefs are stuck playing the Patriots, Steelers, Bears, Jets, Packers, Raiders and then Denver. Rather a big difference.

The Broncos should be able to move the ball on the pathetic Patriots defense (virtually as bad as last years' Broncos D). But whether our defense can slow down Tom Brady remains to be seen. Without Jay Cutler, the Bears offense doesn't present much of a threat so that should be a low scoring game. They could even win, but it wouldn't prove much other than that losing your starting QB for the season will destroy most teams' chances.

[Cugel]

As for the Broncos going "deep into the playoffs" does anybody believe it will happen?

If the season ended today and the Broncos had the division title, they'd open at home against the #1 wild-card which would be either the Steelers or the Ravens.

Either way they would be crushed like a grape.

[catfish]

The Broncos are VERY likely to draft a QB in the first round who will supplant Tebow as the starter at some point. UNLESS Elway becomes convinced that Tim will become an elite passing QB.

Naturally you want a QB who can move around a bit (like Jay Cutler) and can even run to evade the rush when necessary. You don't want a guy with all the mobility of an equestrian statute like Sage Rosenfels (or Kyle Orton). So, an Orton or Griese can't succeed unless you have a really great OL. And even then they will run into teams like the Giants who can blitz with only 4 DL and get inside pressure. And then what's the answer of an immobile QB like Orton? None.

But, passing ability comes first, not running. Tebow has it all backwards. He does the peripheral stuff extraordinarily well, but fails miserably at NFL QB 101 -- passing from the pocket. He did make a bit of progress against the Chargers so he has improved some this season.

Whether that will be enough remains to be seen. We'll know more when they play the Bears defense. Frankly, the ONLY really good defenses they've faced so far this year were the Lions and Packers -- and that didn't go well as you may recall. Denver is after all playing a last place schedule while the Chiefs are stuck playing the Patriots, Steelers, Bears, Jets, Packers, Raiders and then Denver. Rather a big difference.

The Broncos should be able to move the ball on the pathetic Patriots defense (virtually as bad as last years' Broncos D). But whether our defense can slow down Tom Brady remains to be seen. Without Jay Cutler, the Bears offense doesn't present much of a threat so that should be a low scoring game. They could even win, but it wouldn't prove much other than that losing your starting QB for the season will destroy most teams' chances.

I'm not as convinced as I was 2 weeks ago that Denver will draft a QB early instead of filling other positions of need. I think with a few more wins Denver will be out of the quality QB market in this draft

[Northman]

As for the Broncos going "deep into the playoffs" does anybody believe it will happen?



Did anyone believe we would be 5-1 after Tebow took over?

[catfish]

Did anyone believe we would be 5-1 after Tebow took over?

I can't believe anyone is saying "they won't go deep into the playoffs" as a knock on the team when I bet 80-90% of the people on this forum would have laughed in your face if you said you would be even talking playoff at week 12

[Bullgator]

Did anyone believe we would be 5-1 after Tebow took over?

Haters gonna hate North.

When will people learn that anything is possible? It can't become probable until it becomes possible FIRST.

To say we CAN'T go deep is foolish... as foolish as saying we WILL go deep.

I for one won't bet against this team.. they are hungry and dangerous.

[Fullback32]

Haters gonna hate North.

When will people learn that anything is possible? It can't become probable until it becomes possible FIRST.

To say we CAN'T go deep is foolish... as foolish as saying we WILL go deep.

I for one won't bet against this team.. they are hungry and dangerous.

I surely didn't see the Broncs even being in the discussion, especially after the Detroit game.

I think the NE game will be telling if Brady and company go up on the Broncos early. I don't think Tebow can win a shootout. Honestly, do you?

Now, if the Broncos defense keeps Brady off the field (and on his back) and the offense can grind it out against an average Patriots run defense (#19 in the NFL), then who knows? Weird NFL season for sure.

[catfish]

I surely didn't see the Broncs even being in the discussion, especially after the Detroit game.

I think the NE game will be telling if Brady and company go up on the Broncos early. I don't think Tebow can win a shootout. Honestly, do you?

Now, if the Broncos defense keeps Brady off the field and the offense can grind it out against an average Patriots run defense (#19 in the NFL), then who knows? Weird NFL season for sure.

I dont think the team is built for a shoot out in any way, they just don't have the weapons at any position for that kind of game(line, WR, QB...etc). The game they are playing now gives them the best chance to win with the weapons they have at their disposal. If it goes to a shoot out it will be a total team failure

[Slick]

I can't believe anyone is saying "they won't go deep into the playoffs" as a knock on the team when I bet 80-90% of the people on this forum would have laughed in your face if you said you would be even talking playoff at week 12

Cugel isn't really high on Tebow if you haven't noticed. :coffee: He is mellowing though. :coffee: He spared us his trademark 16 coffee smiley posts. :coffee:




:bandit:

[Northman]

I surely didn't see the Broncs even being in the discussion, especially after the Detroit game.

I think the NE game will be telling if Brady and company go up on the Broncos early. I don't think Tebow can win a shootout. Honestly, do you?

Now, if the Broncos defense keeps Brady off the field (and on his back) and the offense can grind it out against an average Patriots run defense (#19 in the NFL), then who knows? Weird NFL season for sure.

Thats just it, if we are in a shootout i dont think we will win nor keep up. However, if the defense can slow them down (Brady has taken a lot of sacks this year) and run the ball effectively than we have a chance and thats all Tebow needs.

Do i think this system is going to work longterm? No. But for now its what we got and its working and more importantly the team is believing in it and thats all that matters on that field week in and week out.

[NightTerror218]

Thats just it, if we are in a shootout i dont think we will win nor keep up. However, if the defense can slow them down (Brady has taken a lot of sacks this year) and run the ball effectively than we have a chance and thats all Tebow needs.

Do i think this system is going to work longterm? No. But for now its what we got and its working and more importantly the team is believing in it and thats all that matters on that field week in and week out.

That is what our offense does, controls the clock so that we set the pace of game. But as long as defense can hold them, we should be able to eat a lot of time off clock and keep scores lower.

[Joel]

The Broncos are VERY likely to draft a QB in the first round who will supplant Tebow as the starter at some point. UNLESS Elway becomes convinced that Tim will become an elite passing QB.
Unfortunately, I fear you are right, even though it would be the waste of a draft pick when there are plenty of other places where we need help badly, or will soon, and even though Tebow looks VERY likely to end up at least an above average QB somewhere if he stays healthy. He's got the physical and mental ability as well as the discipline; all he needs is the experience. His remaining great deficiencies (which are noteworthy) are making quick and hot reads, finding his secondary receivers etc. Y'know, all the things that don't exactly leap to mind when you hear "rookie QB," especially since we'll have a .500 draft next year.

Bottom line is still whether you think any rookie QB we bring to camp next season will be nearer or farther to being an elite passer than Tebow will. I doubt there are more than two or three college quarterbacks as closer now, I don't expect them to close the gap any time soon, and even if they do we won't be able to get them. Our 4-12 team is now 6-5, a winning team for the first time since McDaniels' second month coaching, and has the inside track for the #6 AFC playoff seed: Dance with the one whut brung ya. If he's not getting it done when camp starts next year we'll obviously need a contingency plan, but we are not exactly marking time until a "real quarterback" shows up (which is the one thing that would be guaranteed to empty Mile High of both fans and players, and don't think Elway and Bowlen don't know it.)

[wayninja]

That is what our offense does, controls the clock so that we set the pace of game. But as long as defense can hold them, we should be able to eat a lot of time off clock and keep scores lower.

While clock control may be a goal of ours, we really don't have huge TOP advantages over any team. Mainly because our 3rd down percentage isn't good.

Opponents have controlled the ball longer than we have per game 29:53 to 32:07 over the course of the season.

I don't have stats for the Chargers game, but for TT's first 5 starts, our TOP on average actually decreased by 3 seconds from what it was in the first 5 games.

[MOtorboat]

While clock control may be a goal of ours, we really don't have huge TOP advantages over any team. Mainly because our 3rd down percentage isn't good.

Opponents have controlled the ball longer than we have per game 29:53 to 32:07 over the course of the season.

I don't have stats for the Chargers game, but for TT's first 5 starts, our TOP posession on average actually decreased by 3 seconds than it was in the first 5 games.

Sustaining drives in the second and third quarters has to be a goal for Sunday.

[catfish]

While clock control may be a goal of ours, we really don't have huge TOP advantages over any team. Mainly because our 3rd down percentage isn't good.

Opponents have controlled the ball longer than we have per game 29:53 to 32:07 over the course of the season.

I don't have stats for the Chargers game, but for TT's first 5 starts, our TOP on average actually decreased by 3 seconds from what it was in the first 5 games.

I want to say that ESPN by the numbers stated that over the last 6 games Denver is 5th in TOP.(could be misremembering)

[wayninja]

I want to say that ESPN by the numbers stated that over the last 6 games Denver is 5th in TOP.(could be misremembering)

Maybe they are not accounting overtime possession? We did have 2 OT games in the last 6. Not sure.

But here is our TOP in the last 6:

Denver 34:17 Miami 33:19

Denver 30:26 Lions 29:34

Denver 31:51 Raiders 28:09

Denver 33:38 Kansas City 26:22

Denver 27:48 Jets 32:12

Denver 37:08 Chargers 37:23


Doesn't seem overwhelming to me. We had a decent control game over KC, which was offset by a relatively poor control game against NY. Other than that it's been pretty damn even. I certainly wouldn't call our control dominant, nor would I say it's been a major factor. If we could convert more on 3rd downs, and our defense can keep playing at the same level, our control would increase dramatically.

[catfish]

Maybe they are not accounting overtime possession? We did have 2 OT games in the last 6. Not sure.

But here is our TOP in the last 6:

Denver 34:17 Miami 33:19

Denver 30:26 Lions 29:34

Denver 31:51 Raiders 28:09

Denver 33:38 Kansas City 26:22

Denver 27:48 Jets 32:12

Denver 37:08 Chargers 37:23


Doesn't seem overwhelming to me. We had a decent control game over KC, which was offset by a relatively poor control game against NY. Other than that it's been pretty damn even. I certainly wouldn't call our control dominant, nor would I say it's been a major factor. If we could convert more on 3rd downs, and our defense can keep playing at the same level, our control would increase dramatically.


http://frontrow.espn.go.com/2011/11/numbers-never-lie-tim-tebow/

just quoting what I saw

[wayninja]

http://frontrow.espn.go.com/2011/11/numbers-never-lie-tim-tebow/

just quoting what I saw

I understand, I just don't trust ESPN's analysis. They are most likely not considering OT in their ranking, which skews it heavily.

You can see in the by game breakdown that we simply aren't really dominating TOP. We are winning the battle, but marginally.

[catfish]

I understand, I just don't trust ESPN's analysis. They are most likely not considering OT in their ranking, which skews it heavily.

You can see in the by game breakdown that we simply aren't really dominating TOP. We are winning the battle, but marginally.

I would assume that they aren't counting OT, as clock control is not a concern at that point

[NightTerror218]

Maybe they are not accounting overtime possession? We did have 2 OT games in the last 6. Not sure.

But here is our TOP in the last 6:

Denver 34:17 Miami 33:19

Denver 30:26 Lions 29:34

Denver 31:51 Raiders 28:09

Denver 33:38 Kansas City 26:22

Denver 27:48 Jets 32:12

Denver 37:08 Chargers 37:23


Doesn't seem overwhelming to me. We had a decent control game over KC, which was offset by a relatively poor control game against NY. Other than that it's been pretty damn even. I certainly wouldn't call our control dominant, nor would I say it's been a major factor. If we could convert more on 3rd downs, and our defense can keep playing at the same level, our control would increase dramatically.

you have two games switched according to ESPN recap. We had 32:12 TOP in Jets game and Detroit game they had longer TOP.

In first 5 games we only had a bigger TOP in 2 game, first game against Raiders and last against Chargers.

[NightTerror218]

I understand, I just don't trust ESPN's analysis. They are most likely not considering OT in their ranking, which skews it heavily.

You can see in the by game breakdown that we simply aren't really dominating TOP. We are winning the battle, but marginally.

TOP in first 5 games were

32.:35
29:45
26:09
26:59
19:52

[wayninja]

TOP in first 5 games were

32.:35
29:45
26:09
26:59
19:52

If you are trying to argue that we are doing better than we did with Orton, I'm not debating that. But just keeping up with the other team hardly makes us a 'ball control' team.

[tomjonesrocks]

There was an article on ESPN today with Aaron Rodgers where they really talk about his specific thought processes on throws. It really belongs in the "Other Teams" forum but in a way it gave me more hope that Tebow can become more than he is right now.

"So it's like a pyramid, where you master a level of quarterbacking and then go up a step and fine-tune?
It takes awhile to get there, especially for guys who are thrust into playing immediately. That's why I give a lot of credit to Andy Dalton, Cam Newton and Christian Ponder -- quarterbacks who are playing in their rookie years and playing well. It's really tough to figure it out, and I guarantee, talk to those guys in two or three years and they'll say, "Man, I really didn't know what I was doing my rookie year." Playing the quarterback position, there are so many things you need to master that improvement ends up taking place on graduated levels."


It seems relevant somehow to this thread--so if you're so inclined the (quite interesting, IMO) article is here.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7295185/nfl-green-bay-aaron-rodgers-greatest-season-qb-ever-had

[NightTerror218]

If you are trying to argue that we are doing better than we did with Orton, I'm not debating that. But just keeping up with the other team hardly makes us a 'ball control' team.

The point is that Fox wants to control the clock. We are now controlling the ball an extra couple minutes per game. Which is a possession that could be used by other team on us. It is also less time that the defense is on the field and get a breather.

[Nick]

As always, the big question is "will Elway endorse Tebow to be the starter in 2012?"

We know Elway is looking for higher completion percentages and higher 3rd down conversion rates. I think the former was better tonight, but not sure about the latter.

Do you think any headway was made in determining whether or not Elway will feel comfortable with TT leading the team in 2012? Is this another Jets "push" where we win, but it's 'ugly' and we aren't any closer?

As of right now the Broncos will not draft a QB next year. The biggest flaws on tebow was:

1. Going through progressions and keeping head up field.

* Tebow is vastly improving every game and is doing great in this area.

2. Footwork

* Also improving every game

3. Mechanics

* little changes nothing major but also not worried to much about this.

Elway is going to have to deal with it because there is no way Bowlen is going with a different QB from what Tebow is bringing to the table. Tebow is going to give us 4 Monday night games next year and a ton of Sunday night.

People want to see Tebow over Brady. He is more marketable and people relate a lot better.

With Tebow improving so well and with a great job the coaching is doing and him not turning the ball over... If he keeps this up I can see him turning some heads in playoffs if we make it by opening up the playbook on some teams if necessary.

Tebow is what Ray Lewis has been to the Ravens for such a long team. He motivates the entire defense and offense.

I personally did not think tebow was going to improve so well and did not think the McCoy was going to do such a terrific job asking for him to do something he can't just yet.

While it is a team game and theres 53 other players. Tebow is winning the games alone from not turning the ball over.

I support Tebow and he is going to be the QB next year regardless if we make playoffs or not.