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WARHORSE
01-19-2009, 11:47 PM
Taking a page out of the Patriots 3-4 handbook, and possibly a little of Pittsburgs, here are the front seven players that match up to the physical attributes they look for at the different positions. These guys might not be starters in the 3-4, but could they at least be solid depth?
We have the corners, we need the safeties.

Player.......pos....HT.......WT........Age.......Y ear

For defensive ends in a 3-4, these guys are basically two gap run stoppers who have some mobility both laterally and vertically.

Clemons, Nic (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=8330)DT 6' 6"300 28 2nd
Peterson, Kenny (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=6429)DT 6' 3"300 30 6th
Thomas, Marcus (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=7256)DT 6' 3"305 23 2nd
Askew, Matthias (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=9310)DT 6' 5"302 26 3rd
Crowder, Tim (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=7253)DE 6' 4"275 23 2nd (needs to add weight and strength)




For a Nose Tackle:


Powell, Carlton (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=8663)DT 6' 3"300 23 R

The only division one A player to have limited opposing runs at him to -13 yards.........If you ask me, this guy has every chance of becoming a good NT for us. He may have to add a little bit of weight, but as for run stopping, hes got it. If hes not a fit at NT, hes a definite fit at DE in a
3-4.



For the Linebackers:

Haggan, Mario (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=9318)LB 6' 3"263 28 6th
Dumervil, Elvis (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=5911)DE 5' 11"260 24 3rd
Larsen, Spencer (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=8665)FB/LB 6' 2"240 24 R
Moss, Jarvis (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=7252)DE 6' 6"265 24 2nd
Williams, D.J. (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=2425)LB 6' 1"240 26 5th
Woodyard, Wesley (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=8678)LB 6' 1"230 22 R

Biggest guy NE has at LB is Vrabel at 260 lbs. The rest are 240ish.

Larry Foote of Pittsburg plays right at Woodyards weight, and I think he fits the mold perfectly.

Remember, none of the Dlinemen have to be killer pass rushers.



So, we do have SOME players who can go to a 3-4 if they can adjust to the style of play asked of them. The biggest questionmarks are Moss, Dumerville, Crowder and Powell.

After that, its about the safeties.

Getting some starters via free agency would be key.

After that, some good drafting.:coffee:

honz
01-19-2009, 11:50 PM
I still think it is too early to assume that we are moving to a 3-4 defense. Nolan has run both 3-4 and 4-3 defenses in the past and Brian Billick (sp?) said that Nolan is able to adapt his scheme to his personnel rather than the other way around. I still think that there is a good chance that we stick with a 4-3 defense.

SmilinAssasSin27
01-20-2009, 12:02 AM
What is wrong w/ Barrett? He's got size and speed and looked good when he wasn't lined up 20 yards from the LOS. And given the normal size of 3-4 OLBs, wouldn't Woodyard be a more logical choice at Safety than OLB?

Rick
01-20-2009, 12:35 AM
I read an article on the 3-4 the other day that has me thinking Woodyard would work as a pass coverage speedy ILB in the 3-4.


3-4 defense
In the 3-4 Defense there are three lineman playing the line of scrimmage with four linebackers backing them up, typically two outside linebackers and two inside linebackers. The weak side inside linebacker is typically called the "Will," while the strong side inside linebacker is called the "Sam".
The idea behind the 3-4 Defense is to disguise where the fourth rusher will come from. Instead of the standard four down-linemen in the 4-3, only 3 players are clearly attacking on nearly every play. A key for running this defense successfully is having a defensive front of three large defensive linemen who command constant double teams. In particular, the Nose Tackle, who plays over the offensive center, must be able to hold ground and to occupy several offensive blockers in order to allow the linebackers to make plays. The focus of the 3-4 defensive line is to occupy offensive linemen thus freeing the linebackers to tackle the running back or to rush the passer or otherwise drop into pass coverage.

Generally, both outside linebackers can rush the passer and play the run. Outside linebackers in the 3-4 defense tend to be larger in comparison to linebackers in a base 4-3 defense. They are also often players who would play DE in a 4-3 defense as situational pass rushing specialists but who otherwise may not fit the expected role of a DE being somewhat smaller in size. Outside linebackers should be able to drop into pass coverage, rush the passer or read and react. When it comes to the inside linebackers, one is generally a run stuffing player who is better able to handle offensive linemen and stop running backs when the offense features a running play, while the other is often a smaller, faster player who excels in pass coverage. However, the smaller or cover LB should also be able to scrape and plug running lanes decently.
The design concept of the 3-4 defense is to confuse the offensive line in their blocking assignments, particularly in pass blocking, and to create a more complex read for the quarterback. Many 3-4 defenses have the ability to quickly hybrid into a 4-3 on the field. The 3-4 typically has larger, slower players in the front seven than in the respective positions in the 4-3, leaving more pressure on the defensive backs.


I would think DJ could handle the run stuffing aspect and Woodyard would fit perfectly into that mold of smaller, faster guy who can handle pass situations and still plug lanes.

Lonestar
01-20-2009, 01:29 AM
Taking a page out of the Patriots 3-4 handbook, and possibly a little of Pittsburgs, here are the front seven players that match up to the physical attributes they look for at the different positions. These guys might not be starters in the 3-4, but could they at least be solid depth?
We have the corners, we need the safeties.

Player.......pos....HT.......WT........Age.......Y ear

For defensive ends in a 3-4, these guys are basically two gap run stoppers who have some mobility both laterally and vertically.

Clemons, Nic (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=8330)DT 6' 6"300 28 2nd
Peterson, Kenny (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=6429)DT 6' 3"300 30 6th
Thomas, Marcus (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=7256)DT 6' 3"305 23 2nd
Askew, Matthias (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=9310)DT 6' 5"302 26 3rd
Crowder, Tim (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=7253)DE 6' 4"275 23 2nd (needs to add weight and strength)




For a Nose Tackle:


Powell, Carlton (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=8663)DT 6' 3"300 23 R

The only division one A player to have limited opposing runs at him to -13 yards.........If you ask me, this guy has every chance of becoming a good NT for us. He may have to add a little bit of weight, but as for run stopping, hes got it. If hes not a fit at NT, hes a definite fit at DE in a
3-4.



For the Linebackers:

Haggan, Mario (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=9318)LB 6' 3"263 28 6th
Dumervil, Elvis (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=5911)DE 5' 11"260 24 3rd
Larsen, Spencer (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=8665)FB/LB 6' 2"240 24 R
Moss, Jarvis (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=7252)DE 6' 6"265 24 2nd
Williams, D.J. (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=2425)LB 6' 1"240 26 5th
Woodyard, Wesley (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=8678)LB 6' 1"230 22 R

Biggest guy NE has at LB is Vrabel at 260 lbs. The rest are 240ish.

Larry Foote of Pittsburg plays right at Woodyards weight, and I think he fits the mold perfectly.

Remember, none of the Dlinemen have to be killer pass rushers.



So, we do have SOME players who can go to a 3-4 if they can adjust to the style of play asked of them. The biggest questionmarks are Moss, Dumerville, Crowder and Powell.

After that, its about the safeties.

Getting some starters via free agency would be key.

After that, some good drafting.:coffee:


nice work up good to see the actual numbers thanks..

The weight you have on Woodyard seems to be wrong he was quoted ON TV saying he was playing at 212 while his number might have been 230 at the combine or when he reported his natural weight is 212-215.. Way to light to play any LB spot for a long time in the NFL. Especially in a 3-4


Also most 3-4 NT are in the 335++++++++++++++ range..

omac
01-20-2009, 01:47 AM
I'm wondering, since NT will likely be the most difficult position to fill, can we have a good defense with the 3-4 if our NT is just average, or must we break the bank to get one?

Shazam!
01-20-2009, 01:48 AM
There is no telling how many of these guys will even be on the team in the coming months before the Draft. We'll know which direction they'll go regardless of what they say in public by Draft day.

gobroncsnv
01-20-2009, 08:03 AM
I'm wondering, since NT will likely be the most difficult position to fill, can we have a good defense with the 3-4 if our NT is just average, or must we break the bank to get one?

I don't recall any good 3-4's that are without a solid keystone in the middle. You just can't allow movement at the nose of the football, have to have a literal immovable object there, and a guy who can plug up a couple of olinemen. Otherwise, the best way around is right through the middle. If we are making the change, this will be worth every penny to get a good one.

Think Jamal Williams, Jim Burt, Wilfork, guys like that.

Traveler
01-20-2009, 08:27 AM
I don't recall any good 3-4's that are without a solid keystone in the middle. You just can't allow movement at the nose of the football, have to have a literal immovable object there, and a guy who can plug up a couple of olinemen. Otherwise, the best way around is right through the middle. If we are making the change, this will be worth every penny to get a good one.

Think Jamal Williams, Jim Burt, Wilfork, guys like that.

Haloti Ngata(sp?)of the Ravens is now the standard for 3-4 NT's IMO. B.J. Raji has similar physical attributes. Would be interested to see what Powell brings to the table, but his injury may limit his effectiveness in a possble 3-4 scheme.

Traveler
01-20-2009, 08:32 AM
I'd like to see Dumervil in a role similar to that of James Harrison of the Steelers if we do switch to a 3-4 defense. That said, I'm just not sure what our defensive scheme will be since we really don't have the personnel the fit either the 4-3 or 3-4.

CoachChaz
01-20-2009, 08:34 AM
I still think it is too early to assume that we are moving to a 3-4 defense. Nolan has run both 3-4 and 4-3 defenses in the past and Brian Billick (sp?) said that Nolan is able to adapt his scheme to his personnel rather than the other way around. I still think that there is a good chance that we stick with a 4-3 defense.

However...it's obvious that our defense needs to change and we need to spend money and draft choices on that side of the ball. I know Nolan could run with a 4-3 if the pieces were in place, but since this thing is getting blown up...he may as well just start the transition to his prefererred 3-4


I read an article on the 3-4 the other day that has me thinking Woodyard would work as a pass coverage speedy ILB in the 3-4. I would think DJ could handle the run stuffing aspect and Woodyard would fit perfectly into that mold of smaller, faster guy who can handle pass situations and still plug lanes.

This is all assuming that Woodyard is the 230 lbs he's listed at. Put him next to the other LB's on the roster in that weight range and tell me that WW is anywhere near their size. I'd be willing to bet he weighs in at about 220 at the most. I would not mind seeing him in a Polamalu role at all.

Traveler
01-20-2009, 08:41 AM
I would not mind seeing him in a Polamalu role at all.

How is his ability in coverage? Think he was tried there in collge without success. As much as I like WW, he gets hurt than any other player if we do switch to the 3-4.

CoachChaz
01-20-2009, 08:52 AM
How is his ability in coverage? Think he was tried there in collge without success. As much as I like WW, he gets hurt than any other player if we do switch to the 3-4.

I love WW, but he's a tweener. Just not big enough to handle a regular role as a LB. So, that leaves safety as the only option. He's a tough kid, but I really dont want a 225 pound LB in my 3-4 defense.

WARHORSE
01-20-2009, 11:29 AM
I love WW, but he's a tweener. Just not big enough to handle a regular role as a LB. So, that leaves safety as the only option. He's a tough kid, but I really dont want a 225 pound LB in my 3-4 defense.


I pretty much agree. The beating he'll take from opposing RBs will add up big time. However, there are some guys that just shake the mold.......this guy flys around and makes plays, and I dont see anyone bulling him backwards.

But Im with you, as I stated earlier in the year, I think hes a tremendous addition in a Lynch, Polumalu, Harrison mold if he has the wherewithal.

turftoad
01-20-2009, 11:37 AM
I'd like to see Dumervil in a role similar to that of James Harrison of the Steelers if we do switch to a 3-4 defense. That said, I'm just not sure what our defensive scheme will be since we really don't have the personnel the fit either the 4-3 or 3-4.

Me too. I think Doom could do it. Moss on the other side. DJ in the middle and draft Rey, Rey for the other middel guy.

LB's in the 3-4 are the heart of the "D". WW in the Polamolu role would be awesome.
Only thing holding us back, IF we decide to go 3-4 is a big fat Nose tackle.

If we could get one in FA and draft Rey, Rey, that's be a good offseason already.

All that said, many of these guys have never played those positions. It depends if they could handle it or not.

CoachChaz
01-20-2009, 12:26 PM
Me too. I think Doom could do it. Moss on the other side. DJ in the middle and draft Rey, Rey for the other middel guy.

LB's in the 3-4 are the heart of the "D". WW in the Polamolu role would be awesome.
Only thing holding us back, IF we decide to go 3-4 is a big fat Nose tackle.

If we could get one in FA and draft Rey, Rey, that's be a good offseason already.

All that said, many of these guys have never played those positions. It depends if they could handle it or not.

There are a few guys in the draft that would at least be servicable for now if we went to a 3-4

turftoad
01-20-2009, 12:41 PM
There are a few guys in the draft that would at least be servicable for now if we went to a 3-4

I agree. But..... even Ngata didn't have a first couple of good years. He was OK but not a difference maker until this year really.

Takes time for those guys.

CoachChaz
01-20-2009, 12:43 PM
I agree. But..... even Ngata didn't have a first couple of good years. He was OK but not a difference maker until this year really.

Takes time for those guys.

It does...and even then...is the production from even the BEST NT worthy of a #12 pick?

G_Money
01-20-2009, 12:59 PM
It does...and even then...is the production from even the BEST NT worthy of a #12 pick?

Nose tackles are the defensive version of LTs. They aren’t measured by the stats they put up, but rather by the stats the other team DOESN’T. Without a NT, the LBs make fewer plays, the opposing run game can’t be stopped without help, and that messes up your pressure and pass-protection.

Forcing other teams to throw or try the edges lets your speed and skill-position defenders make the best use of their gifts. A NT might not put up the stats you want from a defender, but he’s supposed to make sure everyone else can exceed them.

Maybe that’s not worth the #12 pick, but if we can’t trade back we’re gonna have to consider it. Adding Grady Jackson in free agency isn’t the same as adding a Ngata to free up Ray Lewis. Not that we currently HAVE Ray Lewis, but still…if we did we wouldn’t know it without the right NT.

~G

Lonestar
01-20-2009, 01:12 PM
How is his ability in coverage? Think he was tried there in collge without success. As much as I like WW, he gets hurt than any other player if we do switch to the 3-4.


He was great at Safety in college played there his freshman season but KY really needed more int eh LB area so he was moved there.. because he was great athlete..


I love WW, but he's a tweener. Just not big enough to handle a regular role as a LB. So, that leaves safety as the only option. He's a tough kid, but I really dont want a 225 pound LB in my 3-4 defense.

I'll say this again he went to the combine and was at 220 and the fastest LB tested.. In most of the pure speed and agility drills.. he came to the Broncos at 230 and that was listed on the roster that way.. But in NOV he was quoted on one of the TV shows saying he was now playing at 212...

I believe he can bulk up but can he really be effective trying to play LB with an extra almost 20 pounds at LB?

Is he athletic enough to be a Safety?

I like the range we have with Barrett at FS (roaming center field) and the LB mentality of Woodyard near the LOS..

Now will they work out for us? Who knows but I have a lot more faith in the new front office to figure that out than I did with the last one..

Lonestar
01-20-2009, 01:16 PM
Nose tackles are the defensive version of LTs. They aren’t measured by the stats they put up, but rather by the stats the other team DOESN’T. Without a NT, the LBs make fewer plays, the opposing run game can’t be stopped without help, and that messes up your pressure and pass-protection.

Forcing other teams to throw or try the edges lets your speed and skill-position defenders make the best use of their gifts. A NT might not put up the stats you want from a defender, but he’s supposed to make sure everyone else can exceed them.

Maybe that’s not worth the #12 pick, but if we can’t trade back we’re gonna have to consider it. Adding Grady Jackson in free agency isn’t the same as adding a Ngata to free up Ray Lewis. Not that we currently HAVE Ray Lewis, but still…if we did we wouldn’t know it without the right NT.

~G

your dead on with this post..

I had never thought of it as compared to LT and it is not stats that count but those of the opponent that do not..

I remember a couple of yeas ago that Ray had an off year and that was mostly because their NT and DL was beat up..

CoachChaz
01-20-2009, 01:20 PM
Nose tackles are the defensive version of LTs. They aren’t measured by the stats they put up, but rather by the stats the other team DOESN’T. Without a NT, the LBs make fewer plays, the opposing run game can’t be stopped without help, and that messes up your pressure and pass-protection.

Forcing other teams to throw or try the edges lets your speed and skill-position defenders make the best use of their gifts. A NT might not put up the stats you want from a defender, but he’s supposed to make sure everyone else can exceed them.

Maybe that’s not worth the #12 pick, but if we can’t trade back we’re gonna have to consider it. Adding Grady Jackson in free agency isn’t the same as adding a Ngata to free up Ray Lewis. Not that we currently HAVE Ray Lewis, but still…if we did we wouldn’t know it without the right NT.

~G

I dont know if I buy into this 100%. I dont think the quality of a NT is completely decided by the stats of the LB's. Yes it helps to have a good one, but are we going to say the Dallas LB's have success because of Jay Ratliff or is it more likely that Ratliff has success because of Thomas, James, Ware and Ellis? I have no problem agreeing that Wilfork and Hampton are studs, but I dont think having a superstar NT is a rule for having a solid 3-4 defense.

CoachChaz
01-20-2009, 01:21 PM
your dead on with this post..

I had never thought of it as compared to LT and it is not stats that count but those of the opponent that do not..

I remember a couple of yeas ago that Ray had an off year and that was mostly because their NT and DL was beat up..

They were also running a 4-3 at the time if I recall correctly

Lonestar
01-20-2009, 01:26 PM
They were also running a 4-3 at the time if I recall correctly

I did not follow them that close at that time so it just may be.. thanks..

G_Money
01-20-2009, 01:47 PM
I dont know if I buy into this 100%. I dont think the quality of a NT is completely decided by the stats of the LB's. Yes it helps to have a good one, but are we going to say the Dallas LB's have success because of Jay Ratliff or is it more likely that Ratliff has success because of Thomas, James, Ware and Ellis? I have no problem agreeing that Wilfork and Hampton are studs, but I dont think having a superstar NT is a rule for having a solid 3-4 defense.

Zach Thomas – 7-time pro bowler and 5-time all-pro.
DeMarcus Ware – 2-time pro bowler and 2-time all pro, 4 years in the league
Greg Ellis – 1-time Pro-Bowler
Bradie James – JAG

The Cowboys have a half-dozen first-round picks on that defense, don’t they? Couple on the DL, couple LBs, couple DBs…

Plus a system that uses them right.

And IIRC the Eagles blew the snot out of the Cowboys to finish off their season.

You can build a 3-4 back-to-front – the Steelers have, actually, relying on their system to mold the DL they need while they add guys like Polamalu in the 1st. But they’ve been running essentially the same line scheme for a decade and a half. We don’t have that luxury, nor do we have the multiple 1st rounders and Pro Bowlers that the Cowboys have.

I don’t think a first-round NT is a necessity, no. But getting *a* nose-tackle would be a good idea. I’m actually leaning toward someone like Brace in round 2-3 over a 1st round NT right now, but then we all know my prejudices against drafting defensive linemen in the 1st round.

I’m just saying that NT isn’t a glamour position, but it can definitely make your defense look better, and perform better. With a good NT, maybe a backer like Larsen has the time to turn into a quality thumper. Without a good NT, we’d better try it the Steelers Way and find ourselves a never-ending stream of excellent LBs, or the Cowboys Way and make sure we’ve got a ton of All-Pros and Pro-Bowlers scattered throughout the defense.

Since we don’t have the LBs or the Pro-Bowlers right now, I’d think adding the NT would make the D better in the fastest way possible.

Of course, we’d still have to FIND that NT… ;)

~G

Lonestar
01-20-2009, 01:54 PM
I have always been a firm believer in you win and lose and the LOS which ever LINE dominates there almost always wins..

When we were running with consistency we were winning that battle most of the time and this past year we won it against the pass but since a pass it mostly a 60-40 prop, unlike the completion level of 99.9 to a RB well we all know if the RB is worth a damn then that is the way to go..

Almost the same applies to D if we can't stop the run then EVERYTHING else goes into the crapper.. the KEY to doing that is NT in the 3-4 and DT's (2) in the 4-3.. NONE of which we have had in over a decade..

CoachChaz
01-20-2009, 02:01 PM
I wont argue that we need a NT to make it work. I agree with that, but I think a servicable NT can be found later. If not Brace in the 2nd or 3rd, then Terrance Taylor, Sammie Lee Hill, Roy Miller, Myron Pryor...guys like that later on.

Lonestar
01-20-2009, 02:03 PM
I wont argue that we need a NT to make it work. I agree with that, but I think a servicable NT can be found later. If not Brace in the 2nd or 3rd, then Terrance Taylor, Sammie Lee Hill, Roy Miller, Myron Pryor...guys like that later on.


Hey I do not know college players and will rely on most of Y'all that do know to keep us informed..

CoachChaz
01-20-2009, 02:10 PM
Hey I do not know college players and will rely on most of Y'all that do know to keep us informed..

Most of those guys at the bottom of the list wont be Pro-Bowlers, but when used as a 3-4 NT, the gap in quality between them and Raji/Brace isn't really extreme.

Raji is nice because he could play both DT and NT, but I think Brace will be limited to success as a NT. He'd be a solid pick in the 4th, but I have a feeling some team will be overly enamored with him and take him earlier. IMO, the 4th is where he belongs. Anything higher is a reach

G_Money
01-20-2009, 02:32 PM
I wont argue that we need a NT to make it work. I agree with that, but I think a servicable NT can be found later. If not Brace in the 2nd or 3rd, then Terrance Taylor, Sammie Lee Hill, Roy Miller, Myron Pryor...guys like that later on.

Myron Pryor is on my list of adds too. I like that kid. He's probably too short to play DE in a 3-4 though, so he'd have to be a NT. If we stay with a 4-3 he's DEFINITELY on my list.

Terrance Taylor too, though he takes a few too many plays off for me. As the backup NT he'd probably be okay.

I don’t mind trying a workaround at NT for a bit – even Thomas, who could add a few pounds and see what happens. Have Thomas add beef, back him up with somebody like Taylor and Robertson, and then draft all the other positions.

But if we switch to a 3-4, the only DL whose name we even THINK of calling at #12 should be Raji, and that’s just because of the difference a great NT can make.

I’d still add a LB, or trade back. Adding a 2nd or 3rd should be adding another starter, and we need a few starters.

~G

CoachChaz
01-20-2009, 02:42 PM
Im looking at Roy Miller simply because of the background factor. Casey Hampton and Shaun Rogers have that UT background that maybe Miller can continue at the NT spot

broken12
01-20-2009, 06:09 PM
not sure but if we do move to 3/4 i think we have some guys to make it, they will have to learn quickly but would do good, i think dumerville would be good outside linebacker, same with jarvis moss, i remember when moss was a rookie and was moving all over on defense when bates was still the coordinator against the colts in indy, only problem was the offense wasnt able to score thus indy got a lead and we had to get away from that gameplan, marcus thomas de, ekuban de (rotation guy), and crowder de (rotation guy till proves what he can do, kenny peterson de , carlton powell dt or de, we really need a nt tank johnson is available and would be a good hire and draft one.

broken12
01-20-2009, 06:13 PM
Igor orlavsky booka boombaska

Lonestar
01-20-2009, 07:29 PM
Igor orlavsky booka boombaska

I was impressed with him when he came out but he did not overwhelm his first year except against DEN..

Cugel
01-21-2009, 02:25 AM
I don't recall any good 3-4's that are without a solid keystone in the middle. You just can't allow movement at the nose of the football, have to have a literal immovable object there, and a guy who can plug up a couple of olinemen. Otherwise, the best way around is right through the middle. If we are making the change, this will be worth every penny to get a good one.

Think Jamal Williams, Jim Burt, Wilfork, guys like that.

This is right. A perfect example is Haloti Ngata, the Ravens NT, who played such a dominating role in the AFC Championship. Ngata was selected one pick after Jay Cutler (#12). That's typically where you have to draft an elite NT, in the top 1/2 of the first round, perhaps even the top 10. Vince Wilfork was around #18.

It used to be back in the day that you could draft a player like that in later rounds, because not as many teams used the 3-4. Today, everybody seems to want to use it because of the success the Patriots, Ravens and Steelers defenses have had. So, you're competing against every other 3-4 team to get the best NT. It won't be easy to get a good one.

If your NT sucks, teams run right up the middle for big yardage.



Generally, both outside linebackers can rush the passer and play the run. Outside linebackers in the 3-4 defense tend to be larger in comparison to linebackers in a base 4-3 defense. They are also often players who would play DE in a 4-3 defense as situational pass rushing specialists but who otherwise may not fit the expected role of a DE being somewhat smaller in size. Outside linebackers should be able to drop into pass coverage, rush the passer or read and react.

I immediately thought of Dumervil when I heard this. Perhaps Moss. They've got the speed to rush the passer, but are too small to be every-down DEs in the NFL. Perhaps they could be more successful as OLBs in a 3-4. I don't know they are flexible enough to go from side to side though. They are mostly straight ahead pass-rushers.

We'll have to see whether they keep Moss. Crowder I think is still cut.

AS for the scrubs like Nic Clemons, Carlton Powell, you just DON'T find decent DL in the later rounds. It's about like expecting to find a franchise QB in the 7th round. What you most likely get instead is Brad Van Pelt and Matt Mauch. Remember them? Practice squad for 2 years and then -- goodbye. :coffee:

Shanahan tried to do this before -- draft DL in the later rounds: 2003: DL -- Nick Eason, Bryant McNeil, Aaron Hunt, Clint Mitchell. None ever did anything for the Broncos. The current scrubs are the same and will all be cut from the team.

You can't assume that the current Broncos roster has any useful D-linemen on it.

My guess would be that they try and move Marcus Thomas out to play DE in the 3-4, try and move Dumervil and Moss to OLB and cut the rest of the useless D-linemen. :coffee:

Lonestar
01-21-2009, 02:42 AM
This is right. A perfect example is Haloti Ngata, the Ravens NT, who played such a dominating role in the AFC Championship. Ngata was selected one pick after Jay Cutler (#12). That's typically where you have to draft an elite NT, in the top 1/2 of the first round, perhaps even the top 10. Vince Wilfork was around #18.

It used to be back in the day that you could draft a player like that in later rounds, because not as many teams used the 3-4. Today, everybody seems to want to use it because of the success the Patriots, Ravens and Steelers defenses have had. So, you're competing against every other 3-4 team to get the best NT. It won't be easy to get a good one.

If your NT sucks, teams run right up the middle for big yardage.



I immediately thought of Dumervil when I heard this. Perhaps Moss. They've got the speed to rush the passer, but are too small to be every-down DEs in the NFL. Perhaps they could be more successful as OLBs in a 3-4. I don't know they are flexible enough to go from side to side though. They are mostly straight ahead pass-rushers.

We'll have to see whether they keep Moss. Crowder I think is still cut.

AS for the scrubs like Nic Clemons, Carlton Powell, you just DON'T find decent DL in the later rounds. It's about like expecting to find a franchise QB in the 7th round. What you most likely get instead is Brad Van Pelt and Matt Mauch. Remember them? Practice squad for 2 years and then -- goodbye. :coffee:

Shanahan tried to do this before -- draft DL in the later rounds: 2003: DL -- Nick Eason, Bryant McNeil, Aaron Hunt, Clint Mitchell. None ever did anything for the Broncos. The current scrubs are the same and will all be cut from the team.

You can't assume that the current Broncos roster has any useful D-linemen on it.

My guess would be that they try and move Marcus Thomas out to play DE in the 3-4, try and move Dumervil and Moss to OLB and cut the rest of the useless D-linemen. :coffee:


while you make sense here I do not see them cutting all the DL guys by the end of training camp unless they get a wholesale line change like they tried with the browncos a few years ago..

I think they will keep a few of them to see IF they can make the change but to expect a complete change in one year is IMO not going to happen..

I also suspect that we will see a 4-3 for the most part this year converting to 3-4 next year when they have the bodies in place.. Unless they come up with a superstud NT this year then the others can maybe get by..

shank
01-21-2009, 02:48 AM
i agree jr, i think it will be a hybrid type defense this year because i can't see us making a full transition in one offseason... which makes me glad nolan has experience with both schemes.

Lonestar
01-21-2009, 02:58 AM
i agree jr, i think it will be a hybrid type defense this year because i can't see us making a full transition in one offseason... which makes me glad nolan has experience with both schemes.

Like I said this is a transition year with a lot of major biggie teams to play.. Anyone thinking playoffs because of the change needs to re think it right now..

SAN should be a major player again next year as they get merriman back.. and KC should be much stronger with all this years rookie with another year behind them..

We should have a better coached team, but unless we have a HUGE infusion of talent on the D we could be in for another D ranking in the lower 20's..

It all depends on Pat purse strings this year.. If he opens them up for FA DL talent then MLB, SLB and safety can be addressed day one and should be starters on opening day..


Now I have to ask all those folks that said "Where would we ever find a replacement for mikey as a HC?" and that mikey would be snapped up in a heart beat..

How do Y'all feel now?

WARHORSE
01-21-2009, 03:15 AM
I dont think so. But anythings possible.

The writing is on the wall for us changing to the 3-4. With McD hiring Nunnelly as the new Dline coach, that all but seals the deal in my eyes. You dont go hiring a guy who just ran a 3-4 defensive line for the past 12 seasons in Dolts land to come in and run a 4-3 dline.

I like the hire and the Dolts Dline has been better than most at stopping the run in the 3-4 scheme.

Bowlen will be told by McDaniels what he wants, and the front O will be doing everything in their power to change the defense to one that can win THIS COMING YEAR, and no further. Bowlen wants to win NOW, not two years from now, and thats why I absolutely love the guy.

Did I tell you he hangs here in Hawaii alot? Down at the moose lodge no less.:cool:

Likes to surf.

TXBRONC
01-21-2009, 08:24 AM
Taking a page out of the Patriots 3-4 handbook, and possibly a little of Pittsburgs, here are the front seven players that match up to the physical attributes they look for at the different positions. These guys might not be starters in the 3-4, but could they at least be solid depth?
We have the corners, we need the safeties.

Player.......pos....HT.......WT........Age.......Y ear

For defensive ends in a 3-4, these guys are basically two gap run stoppers who have some mobility both laterally and vertically.

Clemons, Nic (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=8330)DT 6' 6"300 28 2nd
Peterson, Kenny (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=6429)DT 6' 3"300 30 6th
Thomas, Marcus (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=7256)DT 6' 3"305 23 2nd
Askew, Matthias (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=9310)DT 6' 5"302 26 3rd
Crowder, Tim (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=7253)DE 6' 4"275 23 2nd (needs to add weight and strength)




For a Nose Tackle:


Powell, Carlton (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=8663)DT 6' 3"300 23 R

The only division one A player to have limited opposing runs at him to -13 yards.........If you ask me, this guy has every chance of becoming a good NT for us. He may have to add a little bit of weight, but as for run stopping, hes got it. If hes not a fit at NT, hes a definite fit at DE in a
3-4.



For the Linebackers:

Haggan, Mario (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=9318)LB 6' 3"263 28 6th
Dumervil, Elvis (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=5911)DE 5' 11"260 24 3rd
Larsen, Spencer (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=8665)FB/LB 6' 2"240 24 R
Moss, Jarvis (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=7252)DE 6' 6"265 24 2nd
Williams, D.J. (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=2425)LB 6' 1"240 26 5th
Woodyard, Wesley (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=8678)LB 6' 1"230 22 R

Biggest guy NE has at LB is Vrabel at 260 lbs. The rest are 240ish.

Larry Foote of Pittsburg plays right at Woodyards weight, and I think he fits the mold perfectly.

Remember, none of the Dlinemen have to be killer pass rushers.



So, we do have SOME players who can go to a 3-4 if they can adjust to the style of play asked of them. The biggest questionmarks are Moss, Dumerville, Crowder and Powell.

After that, its about the safeties.

Getting some starters via free agency would be key.

After that, some good drafting.:coffee:

Yes, defensive linemen in a 3-4 need be very selfless because they don't rack up huge stats.

As far as Powell being a nose tackle I don't know War. Unless he can gain about 20-30 pounds he's a little light to play nose tackle (I think).

broncofaninfla
01-21-2009, 09:38 AM
Like I said this is a transition year with a lot of major biggie teams to play.. Anyone thinking playoffs because of the change needs to re think it right now..

SAN should be a major player again next year as they get merriman back.. and KC should be much stronger with all this years rookie with another year behind them..

We should have a better coached team, but unless we have a HUGE infusion of talent on the D we could be in for another D ranking in the lower 20's..

It all depends on Pat purse strings this year.. If he opens them up for FA DL talent then MLB, SLB and safety can be addressed day one and should be starters on opening day..


Now I have to ask all those folks that said "Where would we ever find a replacement for mikey as a HC?" and that mikey would be snapped up in a heart beat..

How do Y'all feel now?

We are going to see big changes on defense this year in both scheme and personel BUT I honestly think will will be improved on defense. We do have a lot of holes to fill, I look at tweeners like Doom, Moss, Crowder and Woodyard to provide depth at some positions and I don't think we can pencil them in as starters just yet but I do think they can contribute. I don't think we'll have the dominate defense we all hope for but I think we will be improved to the point that our defense won't be the liability it was this season.