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rcsodak
11-14-2011, 02:44 PM
And Willis' hammy may not let him play very soon.

Now what?

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slim
11-14-2011, 02:45 PM
If Willis doesn't play, we will have to rely more on TT's arm.

claymore
11-14-2011, 02:47 PM
Man was I wrong about Knowshon. Terrible pick.

T.K.O.
11-14-2011, 02:48 PM
lendale White ?

jhildebrand
11-14-2011, 02:48 PM
Jerimiah Johnson off practice squad is most likely bet.

MileHighCrew
11-14-2011, 02:51 PM
JJ.
maybe bring is Portis or ......... Tiki Barber??????

Dreadnought
11-14-2011, 02:51 PM
Man was I wrong about Knowshon. Terrible pick.

Figures he'd just had his best run as a Bronco. I actually jumped up and shouted when he broke a tackle. It was a good piece of running

Jsteve01
11-14-2011, 02:53 PM
Lendale and Jeremiah Johnson for the win Alex

Cugel
11-14-2011, 02:57 PM
It looks like McGahee will play against the Jets. He said he could have come in in an emergency during the Chiefs game so he should be back.

But, watching the Jets on Sunday night they looked HORRIBLE! That is a team in disarray. They just built the Patriots game up into the climactic game of the season -- and they totally blew it.

Now where do they go? I predict the Broncos win over a Jets team that looks ready to fall apart. Tebow might throw as many as 10 times this game. :coffee:

UnderArmour
11-14-2011, 03:00 PM
Lol you think LenDale is in game shape? Soon as he got cut he probably hit every donut shop in Denver. Tiki might be in playing shape and he's cool with Eric Studdesville. Either way, the way this offense runs the ball we need 3 active RBs. JJ and Ball isn't going to be enough for Thursday. It will be interesting to see who we pick up.

Edit: If Willis plays then we're cool with just JJ and Ball obviously.

Poet
11-14-2011, 03:01 PM
Rudi Johnson to the rescue baby. :laugh:

GEM
11-14-2011, 03:02 PM
You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and then you have.....knowshon mor-en-o.

He ran pretty good yesterday and showed some of his college stuff with that leap. Ahhhh well, what can ya do.

The bigger concern is McGahee. We absolutely need him.

Denver Native (Carol)
11-14-2011, 03:06 PM
from article:


Knowshon Moreno's season is over.

Head coach John Fox said today that Moreno will be placed on injured reserve after the running back tore his anterior cruciate ligament Sunday in Kansas City.

Fox said starting running back Willis McGahee is "day to day" with a hamstring injury.

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_19333426

BroncoNut
11-14-2011, 03:09 PM
You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and then you have.....knowshon mor-en-o.

He ran pretty good yesterday and showed some of his college stuff with that leap. Ahhhh well, what can ya do.

The bigger concern is McGahee. We absolutely need him.

don't bs us GEM.

Dzone
11-14-2011, 03:10 PM
Well, I remember a while back in a thread I said I would eat a shit sandwich if Knowshon ever rushed for a hundred yards in a game. Looks like I wont have to worry about eating that now..LOL...He is not made for tackle football. He is done. A major bust for a 12th overall pick. Thanks Mcdaniels.

Slick
11-14-2011, 03:11 PM
That's too bad. He was starting to benefit from McGahee's ability to soften up a defense. Hope

Timmy!
11-14-2011, 03:11 PM
go figure, he actually looked like a 1st round pick for 1 drive, then gone 4 the year. what a wasted pick that was. Broncos need to take a rb in round 3 or 4 next year...

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LTC Pain
11-14-2011, 03:13 PM
Jerimiah Johnson off practice squad is most likely bet.

Agreed. If the Broncos take a RB off another teams PS it tells us maybe McGahee can't go against the Jets. Despite what he said.

CrazyHorse
11-14-2011, 03:15 PM
As much as we need a franchise quarterback. We need a running back more. I really hope we draft one, just not in the first round. We don't need another Moreno. Where is Mike Shanahan when you need a 6th round RB draft steal?

GEM
11-14-2011, 03:17 PM
don't bs us GEM.

Nut, shut yo mouth!

broncofaninfla
11-14-2011, 03:22 PM
It's a damn shame he was injured on what was probably his best run as a pro. I've been very critical of the kid but hate to see it end like this.
With this news and Willis being gimpy Denver might need to add two Rb's. As reliant as we are on the run we can expect more injuries.

G_Money
11-14-2011, 03:25 PM
That's too bad. He was starting to benefit from McGahee's ability to soften up a defense. Hope

Moreno does better in a one-cut system where they friggin' cane you for dancing in the hole. :coffee: That was a bare flash of his ability to be Tatum Bell.

Now, the (No) show's over.

Lance Ball to the rescue.

~G

Softskull
11-14-2011, 03:25 PM
Jerimiah Johnson off practice squad is most likely bet.

This will be the first move, but I'm not a big fan of JJ. This late in the season there just aren't many options out there. We should be looking for 4-5 running backs with our new style of play. We will wear them out.

underrated29
11-14-2011, 03:26 PM
Well, I remember a while back in a thread I said I would eat a shit sandwich if Knowshon ever rushed for a hundred yards in a game. Looks like I wont have to worry about eating that now..LOL...He is not made for tackle football. He is done. A major bust for a 12th overall pick. Thanks Mcdaniels.


yup- thats my thread and it looks like this year you get to own all over me. Hopefully, next year I will get a shot to return the favor.



Agreed. If the Broncos take a RB off another teams PS it tells us maybe McGahee can't go against the Jets. Despite what he said.



I would not be surprised if we do though. We are definitely going to get another RB active....If willis goes out again, we will not be stuck with ball and larsen again. So we will be promoting JJ from the squad and signing someone else. More than likely one that is on a practice squad as they will probably be in better football shape, then a guy who is not on any squad.

CrazyHorse
11-14-2011, 03:27 PM
LenDale White and Tatum Bell to the rescue!?!?!?

dunk7
11-14-2011, 03:29 PM
Rudi Johnson to the rescue baby. :laugh:

I hear they time his 40 with a sundial.

Cugel
11-14-2011, 03:33 PM
This will be the first move, but I'm not a big fan of JJ. This late in the season there just aren't many options out there. We should be looking for 4-5 running backs with our new style of play. We will wear them out.

Sadly that includes Tim Tebow if he continues to run 10-15 times a game.

Denver Native (Carol)
11-14-2011, 03:34 PM
Just heard on the ticket that the Broncos just signed JJ off their practice squad.

Nomad
11-14-2011, 03:36 PM
Figures he'd just had his best run as a Bronco. I actually jumped up and shouted when he broke a tackle. It was a good piece of running

It's too bad for the kid. When he hurdled that defender yesterday, he reminded me of his college days and perhaps he was turning it around sharing the carries with McGahee.

G_Money
11-14-2011, 03:37 PM
This will be the first move, but I'm not a big fan of JJ. This late in the season there just aren't many options out there. We should be looking for 4-5 running backs with our new style of play. We will wear them out.

We are gonna be the kings of the undrafted RB next year. Gonna need a lot of bodies.

Brandon Bolden, come on down...

~G

camdisco24
11-14-2011, 03:38 PM
Man... what a bust. This is the kind of injury that should be a big deal when it happens to your first rounder.. but it just isn't that big of a deal. That might have been KnoMo's last play as a Bronco.

Bosco
11-14-2011, 03:46 PM
Man... what a bust. This is the kind of injury that should be a big deal when it happens to your first rounder.. but it just isn't that big of a deal. That might have been KnoMo's last play as a Bronco.

As I mentioned in the game day thread, at what point do we start looking at our strength and conditioning department as a problem? I understand it's football, and things happen, but how many times have we seen players, especially rookies, with essentially clear medical histories (Moreno, Thomas, McKinley...etc) show up in Denver and constantly go down with soft tissue injuries? I don't have the statistics on it, but it seems that we have more cases of this than any other team in the league.

Tuten has been here since the beginning of the Shanahan era. Maybe it's time we start asking ourselves if this guy is good enough to be in charge of the strength and conditioning of our multimillion dollar investments.

OrangeHoof
11-14-2011, 03:54 PM
I wonder what Selvin Young is doing these days? He played zone read in college and then pro style in Denver. I think he eventually blew out a knee.

BigDaddyBronco
11-14-2011, 03:57 PM
As I mentioned in the game day thread, at what point do we start looking at our strength and conditioning department as a problem? I understand it's football, and things happen, but how many times have we seen players, especially rookies, with essentially clear medical histories (Moreno, Thomas, McKinley...etc) show up in Denver and constantly go down with soft tissue injuries? I don't have the statistics on it, but it seems that we have more cases of this than any other team in the league.

Tuten has been here since the beginning of the Shanahan era. Maybe it's time we start asking ourselves if this guy is good enough to be in charge of the strength and conditioning of our multimillion dollar investments.

Go punch Rich Tuten in the mouf!!!!

BigDaddyBronco
11-14-2011, 03:58 PM
So, is No Show's career over in Denver? Is he on contract for next year?

T.K.O.
11-14-2011, 03:59 PM
imagine how bad we would have whipped the chiefs if we had Jeremiah Johnson in there yesterday.......:shocked:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT9wu6_4P_ATLt9y8AF7hjh8nFBE5VH4 Y2J5VpQTmFXgpUlyoaJHw

Bosco
11-14-2011, 03:59 PM
So, is No Show's career over in Denver? Is he on contract for next year?

First rounders generally sign 4 or 5 year contracts, so he'll likely be back.

T.K.O.
11-14-2011, 04:00 PM
So, is No Show's career over in Denver? Is he on contract for next year?

i think he is in the final year of his rookie contract...scratch that he signed a 5 year deal so he's got 2 left...yikes

BigDaddyBronco
11-14-2011, 04:08 PM
First rounders generally sign 4 or 5 year contracts, so he'll likely be back.

Yup, 5 year $16.7 million dollar contract.

BroncoBJ
11-14-2011, 04:11 PM
JJ.
maybe bring is Portis or ......... Tiki Barber??????

This^^ I know Portis is old and probably washed up, but all I can think about is his 2 years here and how much I loved them. Would love to see Portis back in a Broncos uniform. I would probably do Cartwheels off a 30 storied building if he came back. :elefant:

Sad that knowshon is out for the year though. I really wanted him to suceed here but man, looks like he could possibly be done here maybe and we might have to part ways with him. Hope not though.

BroncoNut
11-14-2011, 04:11 PM
running backs grow on trees if we work the right system.

dunk7
11-14-2011, 04:12 PM
Not sure if there is any correlation but I'm a huge Edmonton Oilers fan and the team faced a similar situation with their training staff. Tons of injuries, year after year, and finally a player came out and said that the training staff was a joke. The player was banished for basically 2 years but eventually every member of the training staff was fired. I'm interested to see if it makes a significant difference.

weazel
11-14-2011, 04:13 PM
bobby humphrey

ChampWJ
11-14-2011, 04:20 PM
I'm bummed more than most. Too bad for Knowshon and I hope to see him back at full strength next year. For a player who has been dinged up a lot in the pros, this is his first major injury. He was healthy the entire time he was at Georgia and I'm baffled why that changed as soon as he got to the pros.

Say what you will but he was showing flashes this year when given opportunity.

BroncoNut
11-14-2011, 04:21 PM
so knowshon got hurt huh? how bad and where? sucks.

BroncoStud
11-14-2011, 04:26 PM
We need a homerun threat... Time to call Tatum Bell again.

Dapper Dan
11-14-2011, 04:41 PM
That's a tough break for Knowshon. I hated to hear that.

BroncoNut
11-14-2011, 04:42 PM
That's a tough break for Knowshon. I hated to hear that.

missed the game. didn't know he had gotten injured. too bad. I heard he ran pretty well yesterday.

weazel
11-14-2011, 04:49 PM
missed the game. didn't know he had gotten injured. too bad. I heard he ran pretty well yesterday.

bronconut doesnt actually watch football.
he just likes to visit random forums and the blue and he enjoyed the blue and orange layout that this one had

BroncoNut
11-14-2011, 04:51 PM
bronconut doesnt actually watch football.
he just likes to visit random forums and the blue and he enjoyed the blue and orange layout that this one had

wrong. I was traveling by auto during gametime. ON the eastcoast.

rationalfan
11-14-2011, 04:56 PM
Well, I remember a while back in a thread I said I would eat a shit sandwich if Knowshon ever rushed for a hundred yards in a game. Looks like I wont have to worry about eating that now..LOL...He is not made for tackle football. He is done. A major bust for a 12th overall pick. Thanks Mcdaniels.

hope you're hungry:

http://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/knowshon_moreno_notches_first_career_100_yard_rush ing_game_vs_chiefs/3609838

Slick
11-14-2011, 05:00 PM
I want whatever weazel is smoking.

BroncoNut
11-14-2011, 05:02 PM
I want whatever weazel is smoking.

you've got one. It's between your legs and it's alive and well.

I can tell. Your posts drip with sexuality

Northman
11-14-2011, 05:30 PM
Oh well. Same Ol' Same Ol'.

Northman
11-14-2011, 05:36 PM
I'm bummed more than most. Too bad for Knowshon and I hope to see him back at full strength next year. For a player who has been dinged up a lot in the pros, this is his first major injury. He was healthy the entire time he was at Georgia and I'm baffled why that changed as soon as he got to the pros.

Say what you will but he was showing flashes this year when given opportunity.

Easy. The quality of defenders hitting him.

NorCalBronco7
11-14-2011, 05:40 PM
I could really care less. Moreno has alway sucked. Hes soft and slow. Almost as bad of a pick as Moss.

BeefStew25
11-14-2011, 05:48 PM
I could really care less. Moreno has alway sucked. Hes soft and slow. Almost as bad of a pick as Moss.

And he drives a Flex.

GEM
11-14-2011, 05:58 PM
so knowshon got hurt huh? how bad and where? sucks.

Torn ACL...that's in your knee nut.

Locnar
11-14-2011, 06:49 PM
I really think he would turn it up a notch in this offense.

spikerman
11-14-2011, 07:11 PM
I don't think there's much any training staff can do to protect against something like a torn ACL.

NorCalBronco7
11-14-2011, 07:16 PM
And he drives a Flex.

So hes a ***** on AND off the field. Dual threat.

atwater27
11-14-2011, 07:26 PM
Just another reason to hate MCDaniels, and to laugh at his supporters.

ChampWJ
11-14-2011, 07:38 PM
Easy. The quality of defenders hitting him.

I disagree. If anything, players that come from the SEC are used to facing NFL caliber defenders.

chazoe60
11-14-2011, 07:40 PM
Any team from the AFCWorst would destroy the best team in the history of the SEC. I like the SEC, but you SEC guys need to calm down. The SEC is not the same calibur as the NFL, not even close.

Bosco
11-14-2011, 08:21 PM
I don't think there's much any training staff can do to protect against something like a torn ACL.

In some instances, no, they can't. That said, when it becomes a pattern, much like it has in Denver, it's fair to question their methods. Maybe they are not focusing enough on, or even too much, on stretching. Maybe there needs to be more emphasis on ROM exercises to help build more durable ligaments.

There are many possibilities to examine.


Just another reason to hate MCDaniels, and to laugh at his supporters. I don't get this logic. Moreno was essentially injury free through college. Short of demanding that he obtain a crystal ball, I don't see any logical way this becomes his fault.

ChampWJ
11-14-2011, 08:44 PM
Any team from the AFCWorst would destroy the best team in the history of the SEC. I like the SEC, but you SEC guys need to calm down. The SEC is not the same calibur as the NFL, not even close.

Not even close? Please. You mean to tell me when Moreno played defenses from Auburn, Alabama, Florida, LSU, Tennessee week in week out he didn't face NFL talent? How many future first round draft picks you think he faced?

And no one said anything about NFL teams vs SEC teams, although I do disagree with your statement.

I Eat Staples
11-14-2011, 09:01 PM
He's as durable as wet paper. What a bust.

I Eat Staples
11-14-2011, 09:03 PM
Not even close? Please. You mean to tell me when Moreno played defenses from Auburn, Alabama, Florida, LSU, Tennessee week in week out he didn't face NFL talent? How many future first round draft picks you think he faced?

And no one said anything about NFL teams vs SEC teams, although I do disagree with your statement.

Even if SEC teams have 3 or 4 NFL caliber defenders on the field, NFL teams have 11. It isn't even close.

spikerman
11-14-2011, 09:22 PM
In some instances, no, they can't. That said, when it becomes a pattern, much like it has in Denver, it's fair to question their methods. Maybe they are not focusing enough on, or even too much, on stretching. Maybe there needs to be more emphasis on ROM exercises to help build more durable ligaments.

There are many possibilities to examine.



I'm certainly no expert, but I've never heard of preventative treatments to guard against injuries such as torn ligaments or cartilage. If anybody on here has medical knowledge of such a thing I'd be really interested to hear it.

Injuries happen. I suspect that it doesn't hurt the Broncos any worse than any other teams. Just ask Houston.

BroncoNut
11-14-2011, 09:43 PM
Torn ACL...that's in your knee nut.

thanks for that info GEM :smartass:

that sucks, pretty common injury, but rather debilitating, especially if torn. I would imagine he is out for the season.

chazoe60
11-14-2011, 09:47 PM
Even if SEC teams have 3 or 4 NFL caliber defenders on the field, NFL teams have 11. It isn't even close.

They have 11 and the vast majority of them aren't rookies. Even if the SEC puts a lot of players in the league how good are most of them as rookies? Even if an SEC team had 11 future first round draft picks playing for them it would equate to a defense starting 11 rookies, except without the benefit of an NFL offseason and camp.

Worst NFL team>>>>>x's 1000the best SEC team.



SEC fans are whack

Dapper Dan
11-14-2011, 09:56 PM
So basically the SEC is full of weak defenses and in no way compares to the NFL? Is that what you're saying? Because the other guy was trying to say that Knowshon didn't play Pop Warner football before coming into the NFL. He played in the most physical conference before coming into the NFL. That does make a difference. Taking hits from guys like Eric Berry, Robert Ayers, Rolando McClain and others can better prepare you for the physical nature of the NFL.

chazoe60
11-14-2011, 10:00 PM
Walter Payton went to Jackson State.

No one is saying the SEC sucks but they do not compare to an NFL team. Sorry, it's not close.

Dapper Dan
11-14-2011, 10:10 PM
Walter Payton went to Jackson State.

No one is saying the SEC sucks but they do not compare to an NFL team. Sorry, it's not close.

I won't even bring up all of the SEC players, one of which broke Walter Payton's record.

Playing an SEC conference schedule compares to playing in the NFL. We can agree to disagree I guess. Because we are both stubborn, and I don't know of any stats that you nor I can bring up to prove/disprove the point.

Magnificent Seven
11-14-2011, 10:19 PM
Lance Ball looked good on Sunday. He has rushed for 90 yards against Chiefs' 3-4 defense. I would like to see more of Lance Ball on the field sometimes. However, I would like to see McGhaee and Ball run over those Jets all night long.

I Eat Staples
11-14-2011, 10:28 PM
So basically the SEC is full of weak defenses and in no way compares to the NFL? Is that what you're saying? Because the other guy was trying to say that Knowshon didn't play Pop Warner football before coming into the NFL. He played in the most physical conference before coming into the NFL. That does make a difference. Taking hits from guys like Eric Berry, Robert Ayers, Rolando McClain and others can better prepare you for the physical nature of the NFL.


I won't even bring up all of the SEC players, one of which broke Walter Payton's record.

Playing an SEC conference schedule compares to playing in the NFL. We can agree to disagree I guess. Because we are both stubborn, and I don't know of any stats that you nor I can bring up to prove/disprove the point.

You had a good point in your first post, but you just can't say playing in the SEC compares to playing in the NFL. Sure, playing against better talent in college can help prepare you for the NFL, but that's it. Just preparation, it's NOTHING like playing in the NFL. That's like saying basic combat training is comparable to fighting in a war.

The SEC isn't the most physical conference btw. It's known for speed not physicality.

Dapper Dan
11-14-2011, 10:39 PM
You had a good point in your first post, but you just can't say playing in the SEC compares to playing in the NFL. Sure, playing against better talent in college can help prepare you for the NFL, but that's it. Just preparation, it's NOTHING like playing in the NFL. That's like saying basic combat training is comparable to fighting in a war.

The SEC isn't the most physical conference btw. It's known for speed not physicality.

Oregon is known for it's speed. And the coach from Oregon “They got a little bit different athlete running around out there,” he said. “Look at their defensive linemen. Standing next to them, walking off the field, they don’t look like a lot of the guys we see. That’s the common trait.”

I wouldn't compare it to BCT versus a war. More like being in a conflict before a war.

jhildebrand
11-14-2011, 11:24 PM
I'm certainly no expert, but I've never heard of preventative treatments to guard against injuries such as torn ligaments or cartilage. If anybody on here has medical knowledge of such a thing I'd be really interested to hear it.

Injuries happen. I suspect that it doesn't hurt the Broncos any worse than any other teams. Just ask Houston.

There is nothing you can do to prevent tearing an ACL when hit from 3 different angles by 3 different defensive players all 100 lbs heavier with one foot planted in the ground.

About the only true injury or issue a player can prevent is hamstring issues. That was the knock on Moreno and rightfully so.

atwater27
11-15-2011, 12:39 AM
I don't get this logic. Moreno was essentially injury free through college. Short of demanding that he obtain a crystal ball, I don't see any logical way this becomes his fault.

We had no business drafting him. we had other pressing needs and EVERYBODY finds good running backs later in the draft or in free agency.

ChampWJ
11-15-2011, 12:46 AM
Worst NFL team>>>>>x's 1000the best SEC team.

SEC fans are whack

Ummm.....OK, I sense an anti-SEC bias.

But seriously, that's a theory that can never be proven. Which is probably a good thing for you. I think last year's Broncos team would have struggled against any top 10 college team, not just the SEC.

I wish I could see a post-game press conference where some sorry NFL team is stuck making excuses why they got destroyed by a top SEC team. "But, but we didn't expect them to be just as big and fast as us and run the same plays."

And what does Walter Payton going to Jackson State prove? How many NFL'ers have they produced? How many current NFL'ers played in the SEC? Exactly.

I Eat Staples
11-15-2011, 01:25 AM
Ummm.....OK, I sense an anti-SEC bias.

But seriously, that's a theory that can never be proven. Which is probably a good thing for you. I think last year's Broncos team would have struggled against any top 10 college team, not just the SEC.

I wish I could see a post-game press conference where some sorry NFL team is stuck making excuses why they got destroyed by a top SEC team. "But, but we didn't expect them to be just as big and fast as us and run the same plays."

And what does Walter Payton going to Jackson State prove? How many NFL'ers have they produced? How many current NFL'ers played in the SEC? Exactly.

The worst DIII team is better than the best non-NCAA team. The worst DII team is better than the best DIII team. The worst DI team is better than the best DII team. The worst NFL team is better than the best DI team.

chazoe60
11-15-2011, 01:37 AM
Ummm.....OK, I sense an anti-SEC bias.

But seriously, that's a theory that can never be proven. Which is probably a good thing for you. I think last year's Broncos team would have struggled against any top 10 college team, not just the SEC.

I wish I could see a post-game press conference where some sorry NFL team is stuck making excuses why they got destroyed by a top SEC team. "But, but we didn't expect them to be just as big and fast as us and run the same plays."

And what does Walter Payton going to Jackson State prove? How many NFL'ers have they produced? How many current NFL'ers played in the SEC? Exactly.
Actually I really like the SEC. I like Arkansas because of Atwater. I like Georgia because of TD. I like Florida because of Tebow. I like Tenn because of Al Wilson. I could go on but you get the point.

I like when we draft players from that conference. It is obviously the best conference and produces great pros, but comparing them to NFL teams is ridiculous IMO. It's like comparing the toughest kid at your HS to an MMA fighter.

BCJ
11-15-2011, 02:03 AM
You had a good point in your first post, but you just can't say playing in the SEC compares to playing in the NFL. Sure, playing against better talent in college can help prepare you for the NFL, but that's it. Just preparation, it's NOTHING like playing in the NFL. That's like saying basic combat training is comparable to fighting in a war.

The SEC isn't the most physical conference btw. It's known for speed not physicality.

Anyone comparing the SEC to the NFL is off their rocker. Most of their QBs dont pan out in the NFL. College football has a handful of teams that not only run a NFL style but have the players to actually have a chance in the NFL. BTW, Lane Kiffin was 4-0 vs the SEC when he was an assistant at USC. That team was/is built for the NFL.

Dapper Dan
11-15-2011, 02:29 AM
Anyone comparing the SEC to the NFL is off their rocker. Most of their QBs dont pan out in the NFL. College football has a handful of teams that not only run a NFL style but have the players to actually have a chance in the NFL. BTW, Lane Kiffin was 4-0 vs the SEC when he was an assistant at USC. That team was/is built for the NFL.

While Kiffin was an Ass. ...

QB for the best team in the PAC-10/NCAA-Matt Leinart.
One of the worst teams in the SEC=Vandy. QB was Jay Cutler.

Dapper Dan
11-15-2011, 02:33 AM
Btw. The SEC talk got started because someone said Moreno got hurt because he was taking a lot harder hits. Not because people said an SEC team was better than an NFL team.

The fact is, the SEC is a physical conference. It's not the same as the NFL. But it's close enough to make your argument about Knowshon taking a lot harder hits invalid.

On top of that, an ACL injury makes the entire argument of toughness invalid. You can't strengthen your ACL.

Slick
11-15-2011, 08:50 AM
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dogfish
11-15-2011, 09:07 PM
Playing an SEC conference schedule compares to playing in the NFL. We can agree to disagree I guess.

lol! you can agree to disagree, but he's still right, and you're still wrong. . .

:lol::lol:

Poet
11-15-2011, 10:39 PM
How many great game defining players are there in the SEC?

How many of them pan out in the NFL?

How many of them become the equivalent of what they were in COLLEGE when they go into the NFL?

SEC fans really, really overrate what their conference is. It's not the NFL.

BCJ
11-16-2011, 02:00 AM
Btw. The SEC talk got started because someone said Moreno got hurt because he was taking a lot harder hits. Not because people said an SEC team was better than an NFL team.

The fact is, the SEC is a physical conference. It's not the same as the NFL. But it's close enough to make your argument about Knowshon taking a lot harder hits invalid.

On top of that, an ACL injury makes the entire argument of toughness invalid. You can't strengthen your ACL.

BTW, your argument for worst team and Vandy with Cutler still doesnt do anything for me. I hate the dude and never thought much of him here. If you want the best PAC10 QB, why say Leinart? Why not Rodgers from Cal? As for this post, SEC is tough but Moreno gets hurt because he has a man-gina. That drags you down and gets you injured at least 4 times a year.

ChampWJ
11-16-2011, 02:15 AM
How many great game defining players are there in the SEC?

How many of them pan out in the NFL?

How many of them become the equivalent of what they were in COLLEGE when they go into the NFL?

SEC fans really, really overrate what their conference is. It's not the NFL.

The answer to all three of your questions is the same: A Lot. No one is saying it's the NFL. Only that they produce more NFL talent than any other college conference.

The SEC offers the closest thing college has to offer to the NFL, and I would question how much college football those that don't acknowledge that watch. Players that come from SEC programs are more likely to have played against NFL-type schemes and get more of a sense of the size and speed of the NFL than any other conference. That's not overrating the conference. And if y'all think it is, back up your opinions with something other that posts similar to the one that follows...


he's still right, and you're still wrong. . .

Really? :rolleyes:

Bosco
11-16-2011, 04:41 AM
I'm certainly no expert, but I've never heard of preventative treatments to guard against injuries such as torn ligaments or cartilage. If anybody on here has medical knowledge of such a thing I'd be really interested to hear it.

Injuries happen. I suspect that it doesn't hurt the Broncos any worse than any other teams. Just ask Houston.

I'm not a kinesiology expert by any means, but it appears that there are ways to help prevent these injuries.

http://www.exercisebiology.com/index.php/site/articles/how_to_prevent_acl_injuries/


We had no business drafting him. we had other pressing needs and EVERYBODY finds good running backs later in the draft or in free agency.

What does that have to do with his injuries?

tomjonesrocks
11-16-2011, 09:13 AM
So, is No Show's career over in Denver? Is he on contract for next year?

First rounders generally sign 4 or 5 year contracts, so he'll likely be back.

Wouldn't mind if he weren't. Actually would PREFER he werent.

Dapper Dan
11-16-2011, 12:44 PM
Alabama Crimson Tide – 23 players

■Mark Anderson, DE, New England Patriots
■Javier Arenas, DB, Kansas City Chiefs
■Antione Caldwell, G, Houston Texans
■James Carpenter, OL, Seattle Seahawks
■Terrence Cody, DT, Baltimore Ravens
■Marcell Dareus, DT, Buffalo Bills
■Brandon Deaderick, DE, New England Patriots
■Wallace Giberry, DE, Kansas City Chiefs
■Roman Harper, S, New Orleans Saints
■Mark Ingram, RB, New Orleans Saints
■Kareem Jackson, DB, Houston Texans
■Mike Johnson, G, Atlanta Falcons
■Jarret Johnson, LB, Baltimore Ravens
■Rashad Johnson, S, Arizona Cardinals
■Marquis Johnson, DB, St. Louis Rams
■Julio Jones, WR, Atlanta Falcons
■Evan Mathis, G, Philadelphia Eagles
■Le’Ron McClain, RB, Kansas City Chiefs
■Rolando McClain, LB, Oakland Raiders
■Greg McElroy, QB, New York Jets
■Charlie Peprah, QB, Green Bay Packers
■DeMeco Ryans, LB, Houston Texans
■Andre Smith, OL, Cincinnati Bengals

Arkansas Razorbacks – 15 players

■Jamaal Anderson, DE, Indianapolis Colts
■Nate Garner, OL, Miami Dolphins
■Brett Goode, LS, Green Bay Packers
■Peyton Hillis, RB, Cleveland Browns
■Chris Houston, DB, Detroit Lions
■Felix Jones, RB, Dallas Cowboys
■DeMarcus Love, OL, Minnesota Vikings
■Ryan Mallett, QB, New England Patriots
■Darren McFadden, RB, Oakland Raiders
■Jason Peters, OL, Philadelphia Eagles
■Mitch Petrus, OL, New York Giants
■Malcolm Sheppard, DT, Tennessee Titans
■Bobbie Williams, OL, Cincinnati Bengals
■DJ Williams, TE, Green Bay Packers
■George Wilson, S, Buffalo Bills

Auburn Tigers – 28 players

■Devin Aromashodu, WR, Minnesota Vikings
■Ronnie Brown, RB, Philadelphia Eagles
■Jason Campbell, QB, Oakland Raiders
■Zach Clayton, DT, Tennessee Titans
■Karlos Dansby, LB, Miami Dolphins
■King Dunlap, OL, Philadelphia Eagles
■Nick Fairley, DT, Detroit Lions
■Mario Fannin, RB, Denver Broncos
■Tyronne Green, OL, San Diego Chargers
■Quentin Groves, LB, Oakland Raiders
■Ben Grubbs, OL, Baltimore Ravens
■Will Herring, LB, New Orleans Saints
■Spencer Johnson, DE, Buffalo Bills
■Pat Lee, DB, Green Bay Packers
■Sen’Derrick Marks, DT, Tennessee Titans
■Marcus McNeill, OL, San Diego Chargers
■Cam Newton, QB, Carolina Panthers
■Ben Obomanu, WR, Seattle Seahawks
■Jarraud Powers, DB, Indianapolis Colts
■Jay Ratliff, DT, Dallas Cowboys
■Carlos Rogers, DB, San Francisco 49ers
■Pat Sims, DT, Cincinnati Bengals
■Takeo Spikes, LB, San Diego Chargers
■Ben Tate, RB, Houston Texans
■Reggie Torbor, LB, Buffalo Bills
■Jonathan Wilhite, CB, Denver Broncos
■Cadillac Williams, RB, St Louis Rams
■Lee Ziemba, OL, Carolina Panthers

Florida Gators – 32 players

■Andre Caldwell, WR, Cincinnati Bengals
■Cooper Carlise, OL, Oakland Raiders
■Riley Cooper, WR, Philadelphia Eagles
■Jermaine Cunningham, LB, New England Patriots
■Andra Davis, LB, Buffalo Bills
■Carlos Dunlap, DE, Cincinnati Bengals
■Jabar Gaffney, WR, Washington Redskins
■Marcus Gilbert, OL, Pittsburgh Steelers
■Earnest Graham, RB, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
■Rex Grossman, QB, Washington Redskins
■Joe Haden, DB, Cleveland Browns
■Derrick Harvey, DE, Denver Broncos
■Percy Harvin, WR, Minnesota Vikings
■Chas Henry, P, Philadelphia Eagles
■Aaron Hernandez, TE, New England Patriots
■Ray McDonald, DL, San Francisco 49ers
■Drew Miller, C, St. Louis Rams
■Jeremy Mincey, DE, Jacksonville Jaguars
■Jarvis Moss, DE, Oakland Raiders
■Louis Murphy, WR, Oakland Raiders
■Reggie Nelson, S, Cincinnati Bengals
■David Nelson, WR, Buffalo Bills
■Mike Peterson, LB, Atlanta Falcons
■Markice Pouncey, C, Pittsburgh Steelers
■Mike Pouncey, C, Miami Dolphins
■Brandon Siler, LB, Kansas City Chiefs
■Brandon Spikes, LB, New England Patriots
■Tim Tebow, QB, Denver Broncos
■Marcus Thomas, DT, Denver Broncos
■Justin Trattou, DE, New York Giants
■Gerard Warren, DE, New England Patriots
■Major Wright, S, Chicago Bears

Georgia Bulldogs – 35 players

■Asher Allen, CB, Minnesota Vikings
■Geno Atkins, DT, Cincinnati Bengals
■Champ Bailey, CB, Denver Broncos
■Clint Boling, G, Cincinnati Bengals
■Chris Clemons, DE, Seattle Seahawks
■Thomas Davis, LB, Carolina Panthers
■Akeem Dent, LB, Atlanta Falcons
■Demarcus Dobbs, DT, San Francisco 49ers
■Kris Durham, WR, Seattle Seahawks
■Dannell Ellerbe, LB, Baltimore Ravens
■Darryl Gamble, LB, San Diego Chargers
■Robert Geathers, DE, Cincinnati Bengals
■Kedric Golston, DE, Washington Redskins
■A.J. Green, WR, Cincinnati Bengals
■Justin Houston, LB, Kansas City Chiefs
■Tim Jennings, CB, Chicago Bears
■Charles Johnson, DE, Carolina Panthers
■Sean Jones, S, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
■Reshad Jones, S, Miami Dolphins
■John Kasay, PK, New Orleans Saints
■Kregg Lumpkin, RB, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
■Mohamed Massaquoi, WR, Cleveland Browns
■Randy McMichael, TE, San Diego Chargers
■Knowshon Moreno, RB, Denver Broncos
■Paul Oliver, S, New Orleans Saints
■Leonard Pope, TE, Kansas City Chiefs
■Dennis Roland, OT, Cincinnati Bengals
■Richard Seymour, DT, Oakland Raiders
■Matthew Stafford, QB, Detroit Lions
■Fernando Velasco, C, Tennessee Titans
■Hines Ward, WR, Pittsburgh Steelers
■Danny Ware, RB, New York Giants
■Benjamin Watson, TE, Cleveland Browns
■Will Witherspoon, LB, Tennessee Titans
■Jarius Wynn, DE, Green Bay Packers

Kentucky Wildcats – 12 players

■Randall Cobb, WR, Green Bay Packers
■John Conner, FB, New York Jets
■Jeremy Jarmon, DT, Denver Broncos
■Steve Johnson, WR, Buffalo Bills
■Trevard Lindley, CB, Philadelphia Eagles
■Tim Masthay, P, Green Bay Packers
■Corey Peters, DT, Atlanta Falcons
■Myron Pryor, DR, New England Patriots
■Alfonso Smith, RB, Arizona Cardinals
■Jacob Tamme, TE, Indianapolis Colts
■Garry Williams, OT, Carolina Panthers
■Wesley Woodyard, LB, Denver Broncos

LSU Tigers – 38 players

■Joseph Addai, RB, Indianapolis Colts
■Joe Barksdale, OT, Oakland Raiders
■Dwayne Bowe, WR, Kansas City Chiefs
■Ryan Clark, S, Pittsburgh Steelers
■Travis Daniels, CB, Kansas City Chiefs
■Glenn Dorsey, DE, Kansas City Chiefs
■Early Doucet, WR, Arizona Cardinals
■Kevin Faulk, RB, New England Patriots
■Matt Flynn, QB, Green Bay Packers
■Howard Green, NT, Green Bay Packers
■Chris Hawkins, CB, Tennessee Titans
■Devery Henderson, WR, New Orleans Saints
■Jacob Hester, FB, San Diego Chargers
■Tyson Jackson, DE, Kansas City Chiefs
■Bradie James, LB, Dallas Cowboys
■Ricky Jean Francois, DT, San Francisco 49ers
■Quinn Johnson, FB, Tennessee Titans
■Donnie Jones, P, St. Louis Rams
■Brandon LaFell, WR, Carolina Panthers
■LaRon Landry, S, Washington Redskins
■Nate Livings, G, Cincinnati Bengals
■Todd McClure, C, Atlanta Falcons
■Danny McCray, S, Dallas Cowboys
■Richard Murphy, RB, Jacksonville Jaguars
■Drake Nevis, DT, Indianapolis Colts
■Stephen Peterman, G, Detroit Lions
■Patrick Peterson, CB, Arizona Cardinals
■Stevan Ridley, RB, New England Patriots
■Perry Riley, LB, Washington Redskins
■Kelvin Sheppard, LB, Buffalo Bills
■Marcus Spears, DE, Dallas Cowboys
■Craig Steltz, S, Chicago Bears
■Terrence Toliver, WR, Houston Texans
■Corey Webster, CB, New York Giants
■Andrew Whitworth, OT, Cincinnati Bengals
■Kyle Williams, DT, Buffalo Bills
■Keiland Williams, RB, Detroit Lions
■Al Woods, DT, Seattle Seahawks

Mississippi State Bulldogs – 15 players

■Titus Brown, LB, Cleveland Browns
■Jamar Chaney, LB, Philadelphia Eagles
■Anthony Dixon, RB, San Francisco 49ers
■Mario Haggan, LB, Denver Broncos
■Antonio Johnson, DT, Indianapolis Colts
■Reggie Kelly, TE, Atlanta Falcons
■Tommy Kelly, DT, Oakland Raiders
■Kyle Love, DT, New England Patriots
■Pernell McPhee, DE, Baltimore Ravens
■Jerious Norwood, RB, St. Louis Rams
■Derek Sherrod, OL, Green Bay Packers
■David Stewart, OL, Tennessee Titans
■Chris White, LB, Buffalo Bills
■Floyd Womack, OL, Arizona Cardinals
■KJ Wright, LB, Seattle Seahawks

Ole Miss Rebels – 21 players

■Stacy Andrews, OL, New York Giants
■BenJarvus Green-Ellis, RB, New England Patriots
■Bruce Hall, RB, Buffalo Bills
■Greg Hardy, DE, Carolina Panthers
■Peria Jerry, DT, Atlanta Falcons
■John Jerry, OL, Miami Dolphins
■Kendrick Lewis, S, Kansas City Chiefs
■Eli Manning, QB, New York Giants
■Dexter McCluster, RB, Kansas City Chiefs
■Jayme Mitchell, DE, Cleveland Browns
■Michael Oher, OL, Baltimore Ravens
■Ashlee Palmer, LB, Detroit Lions
■Jermey Parnell, OL, Dallas Cowboys
■Jerrell Powe, NT, Kansas City Chiefs
■Jamarca Sanford, S, Minnesota Vikings
■Chris Spencer, C, Chicago Bears
■Michael Spurlock, WR, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
■Emmanuel Stephens, DE, Cleveland Browns
■Cassius Vaughn, DB, Denver Broncos
■Mike Wallace, WR, Pittsburgh Steelers
■Patrick Willis, LB, San Francisco 49ers

South Carolina Gamecocks – 22 players

■John Abraham, DE, Atlanta Falcons
■Jasper Brinkley, LB, Minnesota Vikings
■Sheldon Brown, CB, Cleveland Browns
■Emanuel Cook, S, New York Jets
■Jared Cook, TE, Tennessee Titans
■Chris Culliver, SB, San Francisco 49ers
■Patrick DiMarco, FB, San Diego Chargers
■Clifton Geathers, DE, Dallas Cowboys
■Andre’ Goodman, CB, Denver Broncos
■Lemuel Jeanpierre, G, Seattle Seahawks
■Johnathan Joseph, CB, Houston Texans
■Jarriel King, OT, Seattle Seahawks
■Cliff Matthews, DE, Atlanta Falcons
■Captain Munnerlyn, CB, Carolina Panthers
■Eric Norwood, DE, Carolina Panthers
■Sidney Rice, WR, Seattle Seahawks
■Dunta Robinson, CB, Atlanta Falcons
■Weslye Saunders, TE, Pittsburgh Steelers
■Shaun Smith, DT, Tennessee Titans
■Darian Stewart, S, St. Louis Rams
■Ryan Succop, PK, Kansas City Chiefs
■Travelle Wharton, G, Carolina Panthers

Tennessee Volunteers – 36 players

■Jason Allen, CB, Houston Texans
■Robert Ayers, DE, Denver Broncos
■Eric Berry, S, Kansas City Chiefs
■Kevin Burnett, LB, Miami Dolphins
■Chad Clifton, OT, Green Bay Packers
■Dustin Colquitt, P, Kansas City Chiefs
■Britton Colquitt, P, Denver Broncos
■Morgan Cox, LS, Baltimore Ravens
■Shaun Ellis, DE, New England Patriots
■Arian Foster, RB, Houston Texans
■Ramon Foster, OT, Pittsburgh Steelers
■Aubrayo Franklin, DT, New Orleans Saints
■Oman Gaither, LB, Carolina Panthers
■Deon Grant, S, New York Giants
■Jabari Greer, CB, New Orleans Saints
■Parys Haralson, LB, San Francisco 49ers
■Montario Hardesty, RB, Cleveland Browns
■Albert Haynesworth, DT, New England Patriots
■John Henderson, DT, Oakland Raiders
■Anthony Herrera, G, Minnesota Vikings
■Peyton Manning, QB, Indianapolis Colts
■David Martin, TE, Buffalo Bills
■Jerod Mayo, LB, New England Patriots
■Turk McBride, DE, New Orleans Saints
■Jacques McClendon, G, Detroit Lions
■Tony McDaniel, DE, Miami Dolphins
■Robert Meachem, WR, New Orleans Saints
■Marvin Mitchell, LB, Miami Dolphins
■Denarius Moore, WR, Oakland Raiders
■Chris Scott, OT, Pittsburgh Steelers
■Donte’ Stallworth, WR, Washington Redskins
■Luke Stocker, TE, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
■Scott Wells, C, Green Bay Packers
■Dan Williams, DT, Arizona Cardinals
■Gibril Wilson, S, Cincinnati Bengals
■Jason Witten, TE, Dallas Cowboys

Vanderbilt Commodores – 6 players

■Earl Bennett, WR, Chicago Bears
■Jay Cutler, QB, Chicago Bears
■Jonathan Goff, LB, New York Giants
■Myron Lewis, CB, Tampa Bay Buccanneers
■D.J. Moore, CB, Chicago Bears
■Chris Williams, OT, Chicago Bears

spikerman
11-16-2011, 06:10 PM
I don't think that anybody is arguing that the SEC doesn't have a lot of NFL-caliber players - obviously it does; however, for the SEC to measure up to the NFL all of those players that you listed would have had to be on their respective teams at the same time. That's the difference. On a typical good SEC team you might have anywhere from 3 to 5 NFL-caliber players (sometimes more and sometimes less). There are 53 NFL-caliber players on every NFL team.

Dapper Dan
11-16-2011, 06:16 PM
So going against a few teams that have 3-5 NFL players then that helps as compared to playing teams with 0 NFL talent, right?

I don't think Moreno "having a mangina" is a legit ament argument as to why he's getting injured more in the pros.

spikerman
11-16-2011, 06:45 PM
So going against a few teams that have 3-5 NFL players then that helps as compared to playing teams with 0 NFL talent, right?

I don't think Moreno "having a mangina" is a legit ament argument as to why he's getting injured more in the pros.

As I understand the discussion the question isn't, "does going against better talent better prepare you for the pros?" The question is, "Is playing against SEC teams the same as playing against NFL teams?"

As for Moreno's injury problem, some players just seem to be more injury prone. My problem with Moreno is that he always seems to find that one blade of grass that didn't get mowed that consistently trips him up.

chazoe60
11-16-2011, 06:53 PM
Knowshon is the perfect example of what I'm saying. He tore up the SEC in college and can't do dick in the NFL. The NFL is much tougher than the SEC, that's the point.

ChampWJ
11-17-2011, 12:27 AM
He tore up the SEC in college and can't do dick in the NFL.

They were saying the same things about Darren McFadden for his first couple years as well. And for many of the same reasons: injuries, a really sorry supporting cast, and constant scheme changes due to coaching turnover.

Go ahead and write Moreno off, I'm sure plenty of Denver fans did that when he wasn't first team all-pro and break all of TD's records as a rookie. I'll keep pulling for him to fulfill his potential and kick this injury bug. According to the stats, he hasn't been anywhere near the draft bust many of you make him out to be.

I'm convinced the coaching staff isn't as down on Moreno as a number of you are and don't base his "draft-bust" status on his number of 80 yard touchdown runs.

Dapper Dan
11-17-2011, 12:30 AM
They were saying the same things about Darren McFadden for his first couple years as well. And for many of the same reasons: injuries, a really sorry supporting cast, and constant scheme changes due to coaching turnover.

Go ahead and write Moreno off, I'm sure plenty of Denver fans did that when he wasn't first team all-pro and break all of TD's records as a rookie. I'll keep pulling for him to fulfill his potential and kick this injury bug. According to the stats, he hasn't been anywhere near the draft bust many of you make him out to be.

I'm convinced the coaching staff isn't as down on Moreno as a number of you are and don't base his "draft-bust" status on his number of 80 yard touchdown runs.

I thought he looked well against KC before the injury. Tough break. There's been a lot of ACL injuries this season in college and in the pros. Bad break for those guys.

NameUsedBefore
11-17-2011, 01:19 AM
I will never forget how Washington walked straight up the podium with "Moreno" still echoing in the halls and drafted Orakpo right then and there.

Dapper Dan
11-17-2011, 02:04 AM
I will never forget how Washington walked straight up the podium with "Moreno" still echoing in the halls and drafted Orakpo right then and there.

Remember when Houston picked Mario Williams over Reggie Bush AND Vince Young. They even could have had Matt Leinart. EVERYONE knew that was stupid. Dumbass Texans.

spikerman
11-17-2011, 06:25 AM
It only takes about 60 yards per game to rush for 1000 yards in a season. I don't think Broncos fans are unreasonable to be disappointed that the #12 pick in the draft hasn't even been able to pull that off.

Northman
11-17-2011, 06:42 AM
I disagree. If anything, players that come from the SEC are used to facing NFL caliber defenders.

Disagree all you want, 90% of the players in college dont even make it too the NFL level. The amount of talent OVERALL in the NFL trumps the college level by miles.

Northman
11-17-2011, 06:43 AM
Even if SEC teams have 3 or 4 NFL caliber defenders on the field, NFL teams have 11. It isn't even close.

^This

Its an absolute joke than anyone with football knowledge would believe its any different. Quite laughable actually.

Northman
11-17-2011, 06:46 AM
So basically the SEC is full of weak defenses and in no way compares to the NFL? Is that what you're saying? Because the other guy was trying to say that Knowshon didn't play Pop Warner football before coming into the NFL. He played in the most physical conference before coming into the NFL. That does make a difference. Taking hits from guys like Eric Berry, Robert Ayers, Rolando McClain and others can better prepare you for the physical nature of the NFL.

You obviously dont get it. No one is saying he doesnt face "some" talent at the college level. But what is being said is facing 11 guys on the NFL trumps anything he would face at the collegiate level. For every guy like a Rolando Mclain there are 8-9 other guys who dont even sniff the NFL because they dont have the type of talent as those guys. Its not even close.

Northman
11-17-2011, 06:48 AM
Knowshon is the perfect example of what I'm saying. He tore up the SEC in college and can't do dick in the NFL. The NFL is much tougher than the SEC, that's the point.

/end discussion

FlyByU
11-17-2011, 07:06 AM
And Willis' hammy may not let him play very soon.

Now what?

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Does KM have any time left on his contract if so how much?

Well this should be it for KM time to get a new back I doubt he is worth any trade.

Next season we need a RB, a few QB's, a few WR's, TE and a few O-linemen. That is just the O.

FlyByU
11-17-2011, 07:09 AM
Knowshon is the perfect example of what I'm saying. He tore up the SEC in college and can't do dick in the NFL. The NFL is much tougher than the SEC, that's the point.

Well IMO he wasn't that good in the SEC look at his rushing yards a game at a time any team that had or was a top 25 team he barely got up to 80yds many just 60 or less.

Vanderbilt, LSU, Tennessee didn't have much D in 08 IMO thats 436yds in those 3 games out of the 13 he played.

ChampWJ
11-17-2011, 07:33 PM
The amount of talent OVERALL in the NFL trumps the college level by miles.

No one has even suggested otherwise. You all totally missed the point of the argument.

What got this all started was someone saying the caliber of DEFENDER hitting Moreno is different now and he wasn't used to that. Well the caliber of DEFENSE is better, but not the caliber of the DEFENDER. Players just don't get bigger and stronger when they get to the NFL, there are just more of them. It's completely obvious that not all 11 players on even the best SEC defense are NFL quality, and no one has said otherwise. You are arguing points that no one is trying to make.

The quantity of NFL caliber DEFENDERS is still highest in the SEC than any other conference so don't fool yourself into thinking Moreno dominated a bunch of no names in college and all of a sudden got to the NFL and hadn't been hit by big, strong players.

Northman
11-17-2011, 07:39 PM
The quantity of NFL caliber DEFENDERS is still highest in the SEC than any other conference so don't fool yourself into thinking Moreno dominated a bunch of no names in college and all of a sudden got to the NFL and hadn't been hit by big, strong players.

He did dominate a bunch of no names in college. Thats the part you are really struggling with. Just because the SEC has a larger talent pool does not mean its an NFL calibur defense to run against. Again, you can try to spin it anyway you like son, the fact is once a player gets to the professional level that player faces 11 allstars as apposed to 5-7. And thats a huge difference.

ChampWJ
11-17-2011, 08:03 PM
He did dominate a bunch of no names in college. Thats the part you are really struggling with. Just because the SEC has a larger talent pool does not mean its an NFL calibur defense to run against. Again, you can try to spin it anyway you like son, the fact is once a player gets to the professional level that player faces 11 allstars as apposed to 5-7. And thats a huge difference.

Again, no one said the SEC has an NFL caliber DEFENSE, only more NFL caliber DEFENDERS. Two different words. You're still missing the point. And you don't need to talk down to those who don't share your opinions. I'm not struggling with anything, I'm not a moron, and don't call me son. We can have a civilized discussion without resorting to that. :tsk:

Northman
11-17-2011, 08:30 PM
Again, no one said the SEC has an NFL caliber DEFENSE, only more NFL caliber DEFENDERS. Two different words. You're still missing the point. And you don't need to talk down to those who don't share your opinions. I'm not struggling with anything, I'm not a moron, and don't call me son. We can have a civilized discussion without resorting to that. :tsk:


Sorry. When you go out of your way to defend a player by comparing what they did in college to the NFL it doesnt make me confident at all that you know what your talking about. I dont care what your point is, because its not relevant to the discussion at hand. You and someone else tried to paint this picture that just because Moreno faced more talented players in the SEC that all of sudden that meant he was prepared for the NFL. That my friend is just false. Moreno playing in the college can easily get around 85% of the guys in that league without taking hits, etc because they just flat out sucked. When a player gets to the NFL they are taking hits by EVERYONE who is the best of the best. If your struggling with that concept i cant help you.

Dapper Dan
11-17-2011, 10:31 PM
Again, no one said the SEC has an NFL caliber DEFENSE, only more NFL caliber DEFENDERS. Two different words. You're still missing the point. And you don't need to talk down to those who don't share your opinions. I'm not struggling with anything, I'm not a moron, and don't call me son. We can have a civilized discussion without resorting to that. :tsk:

Don't try to explain anything to her. She's stubborn and rude. I gave up a long time ago. A girl with 25,000 posts is obviously such a badass that they can be an ******* and not have a decent conversation.

Northman
11-17-2011, 11:51 PM
Don't try to explain anything to her. She's stubborn and rude. I gave up a long time ago. A girl with 25,000 posts is obviously such a badass that they can be an ******* and not have a decent conversation.

Quit being a moron and the discussion will be fine.

chazoe60
11-19-2011, 05:15 PM
Don't try to explain anything to her. She's stubborn and rude. I gave up a long time ago. A girl with 25,000 posts is obviously such a badass that they can be an ******* and not have a decent conversation.

You're the one being an *******. Whatever an. ******* is, I'm pretty sure you're being one.

Bosco
11-20-2011, 02:40 PM
It only takes about 60 yards per game to rush for 1000 yards in a season. I don't think Broncos fans are unreasonable to be disappointed that the #12 pick in the draft hasn't even been able to pull that off.

He was only 53 yards short in his rookie year, and that was while playing behind the Hamilton-Wiegmann Turnstyle, while injured, and sharing duties with a guy who put up nearly 700 yards himself...all in an offense that is based around 3 receiver spread principles and running back by committee.

Agent of Orange
11-20-2011, 02:47 PM
It's not that playing in the SEC means nothing. Moreno played on a ream that had the first pick in the draft, which helped him as a RB. But he wasn't your typical SEC RB in that he ran a 4.6 40 and this is a conference that's known for its superior athleticism. The NFL is a league full of athletes. For someone to be a first round RB, you shouldnt have such severe physical limitations. You either should be really fast, really strong, or both. From year to year, theres a good chance you'll find a RB like that in the SEC as that's what the conference is known for. He's also too much of a spaz.

spikerman
11-20-2011, 02:47 PM
He was only 53 yards short in his rookie year, and that was while playing behind the Hamilton-Wiegmann Turnstyle, while injured, and sharing duties with a guy who put up nearly 700 yards himself...all in an offense that is based around 3 receiver spread principles and running back by committee.

I think most fans expect the #12 pick in the draft to be a playmaker. Moreno has yet to show that he is, at least on a consistant basis. Maybe the coach should have focused more on improving the offensive line, or if he was going to run a 3 receiver spread offense that didn't feature a running game, perhaps picking a running back with his first pick wasn't the smartest move he could make. At this point it appears to be just another of McDaniels' personnel blunders.

Bosco
11-20-2011, 03:56 PM
I think most fans expect the #12 pick in the draft to be a playmaker. Moreno has yet to show that he is, at least on a consistant basis. Maybe the coach should have focused more on improving the offensive line, or if he was going to run a 3 receiver spread offense that didn't feature a running game, perhaps picking a running back with his first pick wasn't the smartest move he could make. At this point it appears to be just another of McDaniels' personnel blunders.

I think "playmaker" is a bit of a misnomer, especially for a running back. That said, Moreno was the perfect back for this offense, with his ability to run inside, outside, and catch passes like a receiver. His troubles have been strictly injury and line related, none of which are his fault. I'm also not sure how anyone could say McDaniels didn't try to improve the offensive line. Significant resources were spent on Hochstein, Seth Olsen, Beadles and Walton, and only Olsen did not work out.

spikerman
11-20-2011, 04:10 PM
I think "playmaker" is a bit of a misnomer, especially for a running back. That said, Moreno was the perfect back for this offense, with his ability to run inside, outside, and catch passes like a receiver. His troubles have been strictly injury and line related, none of which are his fault. I'm also not sure how anyone could say McDaniels didn't try to improve the offensive line. Significant resources were spent on Hochstein, Seth Olsen, Beadles and Walton, and only Olsen did not work out. I believe in an earlier post you referred to "the Hamilton-Wiegmann Turnstyle" and I agree that the offensive line needed work. That being the case, there should have been other priorities besides a running back who did not have the skill set of backs typically taken that high and was not the team's most pressing need. Moreno would have been a fine pick if he had been drafted late in the first or early in the second round where his skills indicate he should have been drafted.

Agent of Orange
11-20-2011, 04:14 PM
I believe in an earlier post you referred to "the Hamilton-Wiegmann Turnstyle" and I agree that the offensive line needed work. That being the case, there should have been other priorities besides a running back who did not have the skill set of backs typically taken that high and was not the team's most pressing need. Moreno would have been a fine pick if he had been drafted late in the first or early in the second round where his skills indicate he should have been drafted.

Most of Boscos excuses have already been debunked by the emergence of McGahee.

Bosco
11-20-2011, 04:28 PM
I believe in an earlier post you referred to "the Hamilton-Wiegmann Turnstyle" and I agree that the offensive line needed work. That being the case, there should have been other priorities besides a running back who did not have the skill set of backs typically taken that high and was not the team's most pressing need. Moreno would have been a fine pick if he had been drafted late in the first or early in the second round where his skills indicate he should have been drafted.

The problem there is that Wiegmann and Hamilton were both very good in 2008. None of us expected (and I doubt Josh did either) that both would fall off the cliff so quickly. I'm sure that the plan was to acquire young replacements to groom behind them for 2009 and maybe 2010. Instead Hamilton was so bad that he was actually benched halfway through the year and Wiegmann was let go at the end, which forced us to draft Walton and Beadles and immediately start them.

That said, I'm not sure what you would have rather spent that pick on. Sure, we needed a player on the D-line, but the only one worthy of that high a pick (Raji) went to Green Bay after we tried unsuccessfully to move up for him. Moreno was easily the most logical pick there.

Bosco
11-20-2011, 04:28 PM
Most of Boscos excuses have already been debunked by the emergence of McGahee.

How do you figure that?

spikerman
11-20-2011, 04:34 PM
The problem there is that Wiegmann and Hamilton were both very good in 2008. None of us expected (and I doubt Josh did either) that both would fall off the cliff so quickly. I'm sure that the plan was to acquire young replacements to groom behind them for 2009 and maybe 2010. Instead Hamilton was so bad that he was actually benched halfway through the year and Wiegmann was let go at the end, which forced us to draft Walton and Beadles and immediately start them.


That said, I'm not sure what you would have rather spent that pick on. Sure, we needed a player on the D-line, but the only one worthy of that high a pick (Raji) went to Green Bay after we tried unsuccessfully to move up for him. Moreno was easily the most logical pick there.

The reason Mike Shanahan was fired, imo, was because the defense was so atrocious. Denver couldn't stop the run or the pass. Any defensive player would have been a better pick at that spot. If McDaniels was the genius that so many thought he was, he should have been able to win with the talent on offense and instead focused on the defense. I've said it before and I believe it, somebody could have drawn names from a hat and had better drafts than McDaniels.

Agent of Orange
11-20-2011, 04:35 PM
How do you figure that?

Moreno's problem is that he's not very good. He didn't have injuries early in the year and he was still being out-performed by McGahee. And I'm talking by a mile. It's not even like Moreno can carry McGahee's jock.

Once that happened, all your excuses for him pretty much went out the window. It's time to face up to the fact that he's simply not as good as you hope/make him out to be.

Bosco
11-20-2011, 04:56 PM
The reason Mike Shanahan was fired, imo, was because the defense was so atrocious. Denver couldn't stop the run or the pass. Any defensive player would have been a better pick at that spot. If McDaniels was the genius that so many thought he was, he should have been able to win with the talent on offense and instead focused on the defense. I've said it before and I believe it, somebody could have drawn names from a hat and had better drafts than McDaniels.

So again, which defensive player would you have rather taken? Raji, Maybin, Orakpo, Jenkins, Cushing, and English all went in that general range. We tried to get Raji, but Green Bay held firm so that wasn't an option. We already had Dumervil to play as the weak side linebacker, so Orakpo wouldn't have made sense. Maybin is a total bust who has already been cut twice. Jenkins is a decent player, but not the impact safety you expect with those picks so that's a wash. We had just given D.J a substantial extension in 2008, so drafting Cushing would not have made sense either. English has been unimpressive and isn't even a starter, plus we found a similar and more productive player in Ayers just a few picks later.

Seriously, Moreno made the most sense there, and it's not even close.


Moreno's problem is that he's not very good. He didn't have injuries early in the year and he was still being out-performed by McGahee. And I'm talking by a mile. It's not even like Moreno can carry McGahee's jock.

Once that happened, all your excuses for him pretty much went out the window. It's time to face up to the fact that he's simply not as good as you hope/make him out to be.

You need to pay better attention, because Moreno was injured in the very first game against Oakland. He was also doing significantly better than McGahee in that game, for what that is worth.

Agent of Orange
11-20-2011, 05:01 PM
You need to pay better attention, because Moreno was injured in the very first game against Oakland. He was also doing significantly better than McGahee in that game, for what that is worth.

Nice try. Good luck getting people to buy what you're selling.

spikerman
11-20-2011, 05:04 PM
So again, which defensive player would you have rather taken? Raji, Maybin, Orakpo, Jenkins, Cushing, and English all went in that general range. We tried to get Raji, but Green Bay held firm so that wasn't an option. We already had Dumervil to play as the weak side linebacker, so Orakpo wouldn't have made sense. Maybin is a total bust who has already been cut twice. Jenkins is a decent player, but not the impact safety you expect with those picks so that's a wash. We had just given D.J a substantial extension in 2008, so drafting Cushing would not have made sense either. English has been unimpressive and isn't even a starter, plus we found a similar and more productive player in Ayers just a few picks later.

Seriously, Moreno made the most sense there, and it's not even close.


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree except for the "it's not even close" part. It's not even close that RB was the wrong choice at #12. I don't remember who all was available at the time, but any of the guys you listed would have made sense. I know Raji was taken before Denver drafted, but I'm not sure there was as big of an effort to get him as you're saying anyway. Your argument about Orakpo not making sense is wiped out by the Broncos drafting Ayers and trying to convert him to OLB (to use as a pass rusher) in the same draft. Even if Denver had drafted Maybin and he turned out to be a bust at least you could understand the reasoning behind it. To completely ignore the worst defense in the NFL to draft a player at a position that isn't used much in the offense anyway was completely foolish.

Bosco
11-20-2011, 05:34 PM
Nice try. Good luck getting people to buy what you're selling.

Just so we're clear...you're disputing the fact that Moreno was injured in week 1?


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree except for the "it's not even close" part. It's not even close that RB was the wrong choice at #12. Then why are you having such a tough time telling us which direction you would have gone in?


I know Raji was taken before Denver drafted, but I'm not sure there was as big of an effort to get him as you're saying anyway. Both Denver and Green Bay acknowledged that discussions were going on for a trade.


Your argument about Orakpo not making sense is wiped out by the Broncos drafting Ayers and trying to convert him to OLB (to use as a pass rusher) in the same draft.How many times have I shown this to be wrong?

The pass rushing linebacker in literally every single NFL 3-4 defense is the ROLB, just as the RDE is in a 4-3. Dumervil played both positions. Orakpo also played both positions. There is absolutely no sane, logical argument for dumping those amount of resources into a single position. There is also no sane, logical argument for putting Orakpo where Ayers went. These are vastly different positions with vastly different skillsets. Orakpo's talent would have been wasted there, and just this year the Redskins spent another first rounder on a player similar to Ayers to play opposite Orakpo.

What you're suggesting is to literally pound square pegs into round holes.


Even if Denver had drafted Maybin and he turned out to be a bust at least you could understand the reasoning behind it. To completely ignore the worst defense in the NFL to draft a player at a position that isn't used much in the offense anyway was completely foolish.So your logic is that it would have been better to draft a complete bust on defense than to draft a guy who turned out to be a reasonably effective but disappointing starter on offense?

You serious?

atwater27
11-20-2011, 05:38 PM
Seriously, Moreno made the most sense there, and it's not even close.



running backs in the first round are a luxury. We were a team that needed talent on defense and you know it. Running backs can be found with excellent value in later rounds and free agency. Knowshawn was not this surefire stud that you make him out to be. Stop holding McDaniel's water, it's just embarassing to watch.

Bosco
11-20-2011, 05:45 PM
running backs in the first round are a luxury. We were a team that needed talent on defense and you know it. Running backs can be found with excellent value in later rounds and free agency. Knowshawn was not this surefire stud that you make him out to be. Stop holding McDaniel's water, it's just embarassing to watch.

Fine. Why don't you tell me who we should have picked?

spikerman
11-20-2011, 05:48 PM
Then why are you having such a tough time telling us which direction you would have gone in?

I'm not having any trouble at all. I said I would have focused on the defense and would have drafted the best defensive player available. Denver had the #32 defense in the NFL that year. Even us amateurs could see what needed to be fixed.



Both Denver and Green Bay acknowledged that discussions were going on for a trade.
That's a far cry from making a concerted effort to get up there to get him. I would bet that GB had discussions with almost every team. That's how it works.




How many times have I shown this to be wrong?
You still haven't.



The pass rushing linebacker in literally every single NFL 3-4 defense is the ROLB, just as the RDE is in a 4-3. Dumervil played both positions. Orakpo also played both positions. There is absolutely no sane, logical argument for dumping those amount of resources into a single position. There is also no sane, logical argument for putting Orakpo where Ayers went. These are vastly different positions with vastly different skillsets. Orakpo's talent would have been wasted there, and just this year the Redskins spent another first rounder on a player similar to Ayers to play opposite Orakpo.

What you're suggesting is to literally pound square pegs into round holes.
Smart 3-4 coordinators don't come from the same spot every time. Honestly, Orakpo wouldn't have been my first choice either, but only because I think Denver ignored, and continues to ignore, improving interior line play, but either way most draft experts believed (and have been proven correct) that Ayers was a project at OLB. Also, many people on here were claiming that Dumervil was nothing more than a 3rd down player. Orakpo is an every down player. At least it would have shown a focus on the defense and not on a player that wasn't needed (Moreno).




So your logic is that it would have been better to draft a complete bust on defense than to draft a guy who turned out to be a reasonably effective but disappointing starter on offense?

You serious?

Who knew that he was going to be a complete bust when he was drafted? I was saying that that pick would have made more sense from a football standpoint than the Moreno pick. Yes, we know he's a bust now, but nobody knew that on draft day. The jury, by the way, is still out on whether Moreno is a bust.

I know that you're a Josh McDaniels' fan and don't want to believe that he could have made mistakes, but in this case, like almost every other one he made, I firmly believe he blew it.

Agent of Orange
11-20-2011, 05:49 PM
Just so we're clear...you're disputing the fact that Moreno was injured in week 1?
Then why are you having such a tough time telling us which direction you would have gone in?



I'm saying Moreno's not very good because he lacks speed, vision, and runs with too much wasted motion. This is all true in spite of the assertion you're trying to make that he's been injured each and every game of his career.

Medford Bronco
11-20-2011, 05:51 PM
"NO Show" Moreno strikes again.

Great pick Joshy you fraud

Agent of Orange
11-20-2011, 05:52 PM
running backs in the first round are a luxury. We were a team that needed talent on defense and you know it. Running backs can be found with excellent value in later rounds and free agency. Knowshawn was not this surefire stud that you make him out to be. Stop holding McDaniel's water, it's just embarassing to watch.

Perhaps when you run that pass happy piece of crap offense that McDaniels ran but not when you run a run heavy offense like some teams do.

Bosco
11-20-2011, 06:22 PM
I'm not having any trouble at all. I said I would have focused on the defense and would have drafted the best defensive player available. Denver had the #32 defense in the NFL that year. Even us amateurs could see what needed to be fixed. And the point I'm making is that every defensive player taken in that same range was either A) Not an option to us via previous commitments or B) Not very good themselves.


That's a far cry from making a concerted effort to get up there to get him. I would bet that GB had discussions with almost every team. That's how it works.We don't know whether there could have even been a concentrated effort. For all we know, Green Bay could have essentially refused to even listen to any offers. All we know is that both teams acknowledge an effort, and the Broncos openly stated that had there been a trade, Raji was the guy.


You still haven't.

Smart 3-4 coordinators don't come from the same spot every time. Honestly, Orakpo wouldn't have been my first choice either, but only because I think Denver ignored, and continues to ignore, improving interior line play, but either way most draft experts believed (and have been proven correct) that Ayers was a project at OLB. Also, many people on here were claiming that Dumervil was nothing more than a 3rd down player. Orakpo is an every down player. At least it would have shown a focus on the defense and not on a player that wasn't needed (Moreno).Do you even know what you are arguing for here?

Yes, coordinators bring players from all different spots. Does that mean you look for pass rushing skills in your safeties and corners? Of course not. The SOLB position in 3-4 defenses is a multi role player. Pass rushing skills are secondary to the ability to set the edge against the run. Guys like Ayers and Kerrigan are perfect for this role. Guys like Doom and Orakpo are not. They are more pure pass rushers who belong on the weakside where there responsibility on about 85% of snaps is getting to the quarterback. It's no different than the 4-3 teams who put their bigger and stronger ends on the left side of the formation.

Honestly, I'm dumbfounded that you are even contesting me on this. There is not a single team in the entire league who puts their primary pass rushers on the strong side of a defense.

Oh, and it's not even debatable that Ayers was a project. That was well acknowledged, especially by Mike Mayock. McDaniels compensated for that by moving Haggan over and signing Darrell Reid.


Who knew that he was going to be a complete bust when he was drafted? The Denver Broncos, perhaps? Sure, there is a fair bit of luck that goes into any draft, but is it really a stretch to believe that a coaching staff with two very good and seasoned linebacker coaches might have had an idea that Ayers was the best pick at the one linebacker position we had open and that the other guys might not have been any good?

Also, I have to chuckle at the "who could have known" comment. I'm curious why you don't give McDaniels the same benefit of the doubt with Moreno? After all, how could he have known that Moreno would be constantly banged up?


I'm saying Moreno's not very good because he lacks speed, vision, and runs with too much wasted motion. This is all true in spite of the assertion you're trying to make that he's been injured each and every game of his career.

Ok...I know I'm talking to someone here who isn't very smart, but let's see if we can sort out this logic.

- You claim my "excuses" about Moreno have been debunked.
- I ask how this is true.
- You claim that Moreno has not been hurt this year.
- I correct you
- You say "Nice try. Good luck getting people to buy what you're selling."
- You come back and call his injury troubles an "assertion".

You'll have to un-**** your statements for me, because it sounds to me like you are claiming that Moreno does not have an injury problem.

Agent of Orange
11-20-2011, 06:33 PM
Ok...I know I'm talking to someone here who isn't very smart, but let's see if we can sort out this logic.

- You claim my "excuses" about Moreno have been debunked.
- I ask how this is true.
- You claim that Moreno has not been hurt this year.
- I correct you
- You say "Nice try. Good luck getting people to buy what you're selling."
- You come back and call his injury troubles an "assertion".

You'll have to un-**** your statements for me, because it sounds to me like you are claiming that Moreno does not have an injury problem.

Isn't this against the rules?

Also, McGahee, this year has been better than Moreno has ever been during his time in Denver. But according to you, apparently, Moreno is injured in every scenario where he's outdone by someone else.

In Moreno's first year in Dener, he was outdone by Buckhalter. This year, he's been easily outdone by McGahee. Not only that, but there are some glaring flaws in how he runs. Don't get all upset because you're oblivious to all of this.

Since he's never been as good as McGahee (and maybe not Buckhalter his first year in Denver), there's really no reason to get into this game of trying to pin down each and every game he was injured. It's not like he's every been that good--healthy or not.

You should just stop embarrassing yourself.

atwater27
11-20-2011, 06:37 PM
Fine. Why don't you tell me who we should have picked?

No, I am not going to play the hindsight game with you. It was a dumb pick, it has hurt us badly, (along with just about everthing McDaniels did) and plain and simply, we had much bigger positional needs than running back.

spikerman
11-20-2011, 06:42 PM
And the point I'm making is that every defensive player taken in that same range was either A) Not an option to us via previous commitments or B) Not very good themselves.

We don't know whether there could have even been a concentrated effort. For all we know, Green Bay could have essentially refused to even listen to any offers. All we know is that both teams acknowledge an effort, and the Broncos openly stated that had there been a trade, Raji was the guy. I have no doubt that there were talks. Just like there were with every team. I don't necessarily think that we're disagreeing here. I just find it hard to believe that he was the only defensive player the Broncos were interested in at that high of a pick. Of course, they were (stupidly) working off of a very restricted list of potential draft picks. As for those other players not being very good themselves, that has obviously proven to be false.




Do you even know what you are arguing for here?

Yes, coordinators bring players from all different spots. Does that mean you look for pass rushing skills in your safeties and corners? Of course not. The SOLB position in 3-4 defenses is a multi role player. Pass rushing skills are secondary to the ability to set the edge against the run. Guys like Ayers and Kerrigan are perfect for this role. Guys like Doom and Orakpo are not. They are more pure pass rushers who belong on the weakside where there responsibility on about 85% of snaps is getting to the quarterback. It's no different than the 4-3 teams who put their bigger and stronger ends on the left side of the formation.

Honestly, I'm dumbfounded that you are even contesting me on this. There is not a single team in the entire league who puts their primary pass rushers on the strong side of a defense. I know exactly what I'm arguing. Players like Matthews and Orakpo as examples do not only line up on the weak side. They move all over and they are three down players. Orakpo, although I didn't really want him at the time, would have been a very solid pick (definitely moreso than Moreno or Ayers) as he could play all three downs and still provide a pass rush. OLBs in a 3-4 often both rush the passer and Orakpo is able to set the edge. It still would have made more sense than drafting a project. You talk about Ayers setting the edge. I'll admit that he has been (a little) better this year, but before this year he wasn't very good at that either. So, after having the 12th and 18th pick in the draft they didn't get an impact player at either spot.


Oh, and it's not even debatable that Ayers was a project. That was well acknowledged, especially by Mike Mayock. McDaniels compensated for that by moving Haggan over and signing Darrell Reid. So do you normally draft a non-QB "project" at #18? I guess you could if you were a good team the year before. Denver was not.


The Denver Broncos, perhaps? Sure, there is a fair bit of luck that goes into any draft, but is it really a stretch to believe that a coaching staff with two very good and seasoned linebacker coaches might have had an idea that Ayers was the best pick at the one linebacker position we had open and that the other guys might not have been any good? Since they missed on the other picks, my guess is that they did not know something that the other teams didn't, but my contention is that whether Moreno gets hurt a lot (he does) or trips over blades of grass a lot (he does) the Broncos had more pressing needs than at RB. I would rather have seen them trade down than pick a RB at that position. I think Moreno has been a tremendous disappointment as a pro, but even if he hadn't been I still would say that it was the wrong pick. The fact that the guy isn't productive just magnifies the problem.


Also, I have to chuckle at the "who could have known" comment. I'm curious why you don't give McDaniels the same benefit of the doubt with Moreno? After all, how could he have known that Moreno would be constantly banged up? See my comment above.

spikerman
11-20-2011, 06:43 PM
No, I am not going to play the hindsight game with you. It was a dumb pick, it has hurt us badly, (along with just about everthing McDaniels did) and plain and simply, we had much bigger positional needs than running back.

This is the crux of my argument. You just said it much more succinctly than I did.

Bosco
11-20-2011, 06:44 PM
Also, McGahee, this year has been better than Moreno has ever been during his time in Denver.

McGahee's season is on pace to be roughly equal to Moreno's 2009 season.


But according to you, apparently, Moreno is injured in every scenario where he's outdone by someone else. Where have I said this? Please provide a direct quote.


In Moreno's first year in Dener, he was outdone by Buckhalter.

Are you high? Moreno had more carries, more starts, more yards and more touchdowns (7 to 1). The only area Buckhalter outperformed him in was yards per carry.


This year, he's been easily outdone by McGahee. Not surprising, since he has been injured.


Not only that, but there are some glaring flaws in how he runs. About time you finally get something right. I'll give you this. He tends to dance too much, but this is excusable given the lines he has played behind. Both issues need to be corrected.


You should just stop embarrassing yourself.

Says the guy who has been thrown off this forum and the OrangeMane multiple times? Right, Lex?

Agent of Orange
11-20-2011, 06:47 PM
McGahee's season is on pace to be roughly equal to Moreno's 2009 season.

Where have I said this? Please provide a direct quote.



Are you high? Moreno had more carries, more starts, more yards and more touchdowns (7 to 1). The only area Buckhalter outperformed him in was yards per carry.

Not surprising, since he has been injured.

About time you finally get something right. I'll give you this. He tends to dance too much, but this is excusable given the lines he has played behind. Both issues need to be corrected.



Says the guy who has been thrown off this forum and the OrangeMane multiple times? Right, Lex?

Like I said, stop embarrassing yourself.

spikerman
11-20-2011, 06:53 PM
Well, it's obvious that we're not going to change anybody's mind (I know, big surprise) and some of the comments are starting to get a little personal so I'm bugging out of this thread.

Happy football!

Bosco
11-20-2011, 07:14 PM
No, I am not going to play the hindsight game with you. It was a dumb pick, it has hurt us badly, (along with just about everthing McDaniels did) and plain and simply, we had much bigger positional needs than running back.

Oh really?


Northman. Great thread. I didn't want a running back on the 1st day. But I do think Moreno was best player available.

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=641777&postcount=35

Yes, it's quite clear that you're not playing the hindsight game here.


I just find it hard to believe that he was the only defensive player the Broncos were interested in at that high of a pick

I don't. They knew what they wanted to run on defense and which players fit those roles.


I know exactly what I'm arguing. Players like Matthews and Orakpo as examples do not only line up on the weak side. They move all over and they are three down players.

On a vast majority of these plays, the formation has flipped due to offensive personnel and formation, hence why you have strong and weak side linebackers. The assignments and responsibilities almost always flip as well, so the player is generally doing the same thing, just from another side. This is why the defense is just kind of standing around until the offense declares their alignments.

Also, in a 3-4 defense it is usually SILB who comes off the field in nickel packages. Both OLBs are usually on the field in these packages.

Long story short, it doesn't change the argument.


Orakpo, although I didn't really want him at the time, would have been a very solid pick (definitely moreso than Moreno or Ayers) as he could play all three downs and still provide a pass rush. OLBs in a 3-4 often both rush the passer and Orakpo is able to set the edge. It still would have made more sense than drafting a project.

Wrong. The WOLB is almost always lined up on the LOS in a 3-4. On a vast majority of snaps, they are the 4th rusher. The SOLB generally plays off and has read and react responsibilities except on dedicated blitzes. Putting a pass rusher in the SOLB position completely negates their skillset on most plays. The ONLY way that argument makes sense is if you run 5-2 principles like Wade Phillips does. We didn't, so the point is moot.


You talk about Ayers setting the edge. I'll admit that he has been (a little) better this year, but before this year he wasn't very good at that either. Actually he was doing a very good job at that prior to getting hurt. He was not elite, mind you, but quite good for a 2nd year player going through a position change.


So do you normally draft a non-QB "project" at #18? I guess you could if you were a good team the year before. Denver was not. Depends on the talent level of the player. Exceptional talents like Ayers and Clady (who was also thought of as a bit of a project due to his run blocking) are generally safe bets. Clady developed extremely fast, while Ayers has been somewhat slower. They have both grown into very good players though.


Since they missed on the other picks, my guess is that they did not know something that the other teams didn't

What other linebackers did we draft in 2009, much less miss on?

atwater27
11-20-2011, 07:51 PM
Oh really?



http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=641777&postcount=35

Yes, it's quite clear that you're not playing the hindsight game here.



?

Good find. Obsess much?

First off, people would actually READ your posts if they weren't so long, insanely panoptic and full of wind.

Second off, your impeccaby researched "gotcha" quote from me included my long held belief that we didn't need a running back.

At the end of the day, what do we have but a few sober truths... Knowshawn Moreno is a bust. Josh McDaniels was a bane on our organization. And none of the "I'm a smarter fan than you" banter is going to change those 2 facts. :salute:

Bosco
11-20-2011, 08:19 PM
Good find. Obsess much?

Nice. That's about the high level rebuttal I expected out of you. Rather than just be a man and step up and admit you were being disingenuous and thought it was a good pick at the time, you have to deflect and act like the 30 seconds it took me to look that up constitutes obsession.

Pretty sad, even for you.


First off, people would actually READ your posts if they weren't so long, insanely panoptic and full of wind. Sorry, I'll try to talk more in cliches and slogans if it will make you feel better.


Second off, your impeccaby researched "gotcha" quote from me included my long held belief that we didn't need a running back.

I know, right? Funny how a little bit of honesty goes a long way. I actually did that on purpose, less I be accused of twisting your words.

That said, the bolded part is the relevant one, because it shows how dishonest you are. You correctly claimed then that Moreno was the best player available at the time, but then when it looks like the pick hasn't worked out you shift around to calling it "dumb" while trying to claim you won't play the hindsight game.

That shit is inexcusable.

atwater27
11-20-2011, 08:26 PM
Nice. That's about the high level rebuttal I expected out of you. Rather than just be a man and step up and admit you were being disingenuous and thought it was a good pick at the time, you have to deflect and act like the 30 seconds it took me to look that up constitutes obsession.
I am less than a man. Only a notch above you.
Pretty sad, even for you.

Sorry, I'll try to talk more in cliches and slogans if it will make you feel better.

Try this one.... I was mistaken to put my faith in Josh McDaniels.:welcome:

I know, right? Funny how a little bit of honesty goes a long way. I actually did that on purpose, less I be accused of twisting your words.
I think the word you were looking for was lest.
That said, the bolded part is the relevant one, because it shows how dishonest you are. You correctly claimed then that Moreno was the best player available at the time, but then when it looks like the pick hasn't worked out you shift around to calling it "dumb" while trying to claim you won't play the hindsight game.
I was wrong about Knowshawn. he wasn't the best player available. There. You got me. Good thing I am not an NFL scout, huh bozo?
That shit is inexcusable.

The only thing here inexcusable is the length of your posts.

atwater27
11-20-2011, 08:28 PM
Did I mention McDaniels sucks? And the folks who still defend him are idiots?

tomjonesrocks
11-20-2011, 10:27 PM
Knowshon is a piece of shit.

I'm repeating myself, but it bears repeating. He can go now.

ChampWJ
11-21-2011, 02:53 AM
we had much bigger positional needs than running back. To an outsider assessing this teams needs going into '09 we would have appeared VERY weak at RB. What did Hillis have, 3 good games in 08 after converting from fullback due to injuries? Hardly enough time to prove himself worth building around.

RB's on the roster during the 08 season:
Selvin Young, Peyton Hillis (FB), Andre Hall, Ryan Torain, PJ Pope, Michael Pittman, Cory Boyd, Tatum Bell (when we ran out of backs)

Sure we had needs on D, but more than RB? That's a tough sell.




First off, people would actually READ your posts if they weren't so long, insanely panoptic and full of wind.

The reasonable thing to do would be to not reply to posts you haven't read.


At the end of the day, what do we have but a few sober truths... Knowshawn Moreno is a bust. Josh McDaniels was a bane on our organization. And none of the "I'm a smarter fan than you" banter is going to change those 2 facts. :salute:

Isn't listing opinions as "sober truths" contributing to the "I'm smarter than you" banter?

atwater27
11-21-2011, 09:19 AM
To an outsider assessing this teams needs going into '09 we would have appeared VERY weak at RB. What did Hillis have, 3 good games in 08 after converting from fullback due to injuries? Hardly enough time to prove himself worth building around.

RB's on the roster during the 08 season:
Selvin Young, Peyton Hillis (FB), Andre Hall, Ryan Torain, PJ Pope, Michael Pittman, Cory Boyd, Tatum Bell (when we ran out of backs)

Sure we had needs on D, but more than RB? That's a tough sell.



The reasonable thing to do would be to not reply to posts you haven't read.



Isn't listing opinions as "sober truths" contributing to the "I'm smarter than you" banter?

I couldn't understand why you were adressing me until I got to the end of your post and saw your sig pic. It all makes sense now. I understand it's tough to find out a guy you like so much is a bust. End the pain now and just change your pic. It'll hurt your pride a LITTLE, but I'm sure you'll get over it. I'm rootin for ya.


P.S. Nobody should buy American cars until they can operate without government bailouts. And they suck compared to many foreign manufacturers. Just another brutal truth for you.

ChampWJ
11-21-2011, 12:14 PM
I couldn't understand why you were adressing me until I got to the end of your post and saw your sig pic. It all makes sense now. I understand it's tough to find out a guy you like so much is a bust. End the pain now and just change your pic. It'll hurt your pride a LITTLE, but I'm sure you'll get over it. I'm rootin for ya.

What? Ignore the points in a post but say something sarcastic or belittling about another poster's opinions. More and more of that around here lately.


P.S. Nobody should buy American cars until they can operate without government bailouts. And they suck compared to many foreign manufacturers. Just another brutal truth for you.

There's plenty of evidence that over the last 5 years most American manufacturers have caught the competition and now have a lot to offer technology, reliability and efficiency-wise. They're winning back a lot of foreign converts (myself included). I'll pass on the bailout discussion because of the flawed information out there and how fast it gets political. Maybe we can continue this discussion elsewhere to keep this thread on topic.

vandammage13
11-21-2011, 02:10 PM
I couldn't understand why you were adressing me until I got to the end of your post and saw your sig pic. It all makes sense now. I understand it's tough to find out a guy you like so much is a bust. End the pain now and just change your pic. It'll hurt your pride a LITTLE, but I'm sure you'll get over it. I'm rootin for ya.


P.S. Nobody should buy American cars until they can operate without government bailouts. And they suck compared to many foreign manufacturers. Just another brutal truth for you.

Have you driven a Ford lately?

No govt bailout there...

atwater27
11-21-2011, 07:27 PM
What? Ignore the points in a post but say something sarcastic or belittling about another poster's opinions. More and more of that around here lately.



There's plenty of evidence that over the last 5 years most American manufacturers have caught the competition and now have a lot to offer technology, reliability and efficiency-wise. They're winning back a lot of foreign converts (myself included). I'll pass on the bailout discussion because of the flawed information out there and how fast it gets political. Maybe we can continue this discussion elsewhere to keep this thread on topic.

Ladies and gentlemen, the Chevy Volt....

http://cdn2.benzinga.com/files/imagecache/article_image_thumb/detroit-car-fire.jpg

ChampWJ
11-21-2011, 08:05 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, the Chevy Volt....


Made a thread for the car discussion to continue. http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=314600

dogfish
11-21-2011, 08:21 PM
http://cdn2.benzinga.com/files/imagecache/article_image_thumb/detroit-car-fire.jpg

unfortunately, that looks a lot like knowshon's career right now. . .

Agent of Orange
11-21-2011, 08:31 PM
What? Ignore the points in a post but say something sarcastic or belittling about another poster's opinions. More and more of that around here lately.



There's plenty of evidence that over the last 5 years most American manufacturers have caught the competition and now have a lot to offer technology, reliability and efficiency-wise. They're winning back a lot of foreign converts (myself included). I'll pass on the bailout discussion because of the flawed information out there and how fast it gets political. Maybe we can continue this discussion elsewhere to keep this thread on topic.

He's right. You should lose the sig pic. It's just embarrassing at this point. You might as well have a Mike Croel sig pic.