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Denver Native (Carol)
11-14-2011, 11:22 AM
http://www.denverssportsstation.com/page.php?page_id=59

Denver Native (Carol)
11-14-2011, 11:27 AM
For those who can not listen, here is some of what John said:


Bottom line, John Elway said this morning: the Broncos won. No matter that Tim Tebow threw eight passes, he said.

Speaking during his weekly radio segment on 102.3 The Ticket with Vic and Gary, Elway said repeatedly that the Broncos only threw eight passes in yesterday’s 17-10 win over Kansas City because it was what “the game dictated.”

“You can always go back and question, ‘We could’ve done this,’ or, ‘We could’ve done that,’ but we won the game,” said Elway, the team’s executive vice president of football operations.

rest of article - http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2011/11/14/broncos-elway-game-vs-kansas-city-dictated-heavy-rushing-attack/10693/

Northman
11-14-2011, 11:41 AM
He's right.

There was no need to venture from what we were doing. If we had panicked and threw it up, turned it over and lost than everyone would be complaining that we should of kept running it.

Denver Native (Carol)
11-14-2011, 11:46 AM
For those who can not, or do not want to listen to it - John was asked to evaluate Tim's performance.

John replied - "if you want me to evaluate Tim yesterday - he played very very well"

slim
11-14-2011, 11:50 AM
No need to get into the play calling after a win, but TT did what was asked of him.

underrated29
11-14-2011, 11:56 AM
eh, I would have liked to see a fair amount more of the passes. Just enough to offset the run and extend the drives. Running the same run on 3rd and 19...that imo is pointless. especially when there are 4 minutes left in the game.

Try a quick slant, a screen, and out or a bomb down the sidelines. Something that is safe and not likely to be picked off. Either we catch it and go or no one catches it. But whatever, we won and like elway said that is all that matters.




THE MOST important thing I heard from elway was the "Tim needs to be a better pocket passer but we are not going to make him a pocket passer."---That is great!!!

JaxBroncoGirl
11-14-2011, 12:32 PM
The 8 passes in yesterday's game could have been a little more. The ESPN talking heads were saying that the coaches and team will not continue to win with a game plan of only 8 passes. That was not on Tebow, and he did exactly what the coaches asked. I am glad we won. We really need to let him throw more, since Elway said himself that Tebow needs to improve on his throwing.

Sometimes I feel like the Denver coaches talk out of both sides of their mouths most of the time, I am sure they are not the only organization to do so, not good though. I will take a win no matter what and Decker looked good on that TD yesterday.

The catch 22 in all this, Denver's coaching staff would have had Orton throw 20-25 times yet still somehow would have probably lost the game. Yet, get a Rookie and only PLAN 8 throwing plays and somehow pull off the impossible and win on the road.

To me it shows they do not have confidence in Tebow nor the entire offense which rubs off on the players (they are not stupid).

Dreadnought
11-14-2011, 12:41 PM
FTA


Tebow only completed two passes, but one was a 56-yard strike to Eric Decker that gave the Broncos a 17-7 lead with 6:44 to play.

“He made a great throw the clinch the game,” Elway said. “To me, that’s locking up a football game, that’s winning the game. That pass won the football game.

“We know Tim Tebow can make those clutch throws like that. … You can’t throw a better pass than Tim Tebow made in that situation.”

Well said, Mr. Elway :salute:

Mike
11-14-2011, 12:57 PM
The 8 passes in yesterday's game could have been a little more. The ESPN talking heads were saying that the coaches and team will not continue to win with a game plan of only 8 passes. That was not on Tebow, and he did exactly what the coaches asked. I am glad we won. We really need to let him throw more, since Elway said himself that Tebow needs to improve on his throwing.

Sometimes I feel like the Denver coaches talk out of both sides of their mouths most of the time, I am sure they are not the only organization to do so, not good though. I will take a win no matter what and Decker looked good on that TD yesterday.

The catch 22 in all this, Denver's coaching staff would have had Orton throw 20-25 times yet still somehow would have probably lost the game. Yet, get a Rookie and only PLAN 8 throwing plays and somehow pull off the impossible and win on the road.

To me it shows they do not have confidence in Tebow nor the entire offense which rubs off on the players (they are not stupid).

Talking heads said the Broncos won't win with Tebow, period. Who cares what they think? They are an echo chamber anyway.

Denver Native (Carol)
11-14-2011, 01:00 PM
The 8 passes in yesterday's game could have been a little more. The ESPN talking heads were saying that the coaches and team will not continue to win with a game plan of only 8 passes. That was not on Tebow, and he did exactly what the coaches asked. I am glad we won. We really need to let him throw more, since Elway said himself that Tebow needs to improve on his throwing.

Sometimes I feel like the Denver coaches talk out of both sides of their mouths most of the time, I am sure they are not the only organization to do so, not good though. I will take a win no matter what and Decker looked good on that TD yesterday.

The catch 22 in all this, Denver's coaching staff would have had Orton throw 20-25 times yet still somehow would have probably lost the game. Yet, get a Rookie and only PLAN 8 throwing plays and somehow pull off the impossible and win on the road.

To me it shows they do not have confidence in Tebow nor the entire offense which rubs off on the players (they are not stupid).

I don't agree with your interpretation at all in regards to yesterday's game. The run WAS working - it was TOTALLY wearing down KC's defense - it was giving our defense the luxury of standing on the sidelines, to be totally fresh when they came in the game, so WHY should the coaches put in more pass plays??? It had NOTHING to do with trying to make TT look bad - it was ALL about keep DOING what is successful. What IF TT had thrown 10 more passes, and THREE were intercepted, and lead to touchdowns - THEN WHAT?????

BroncoWave
11-14-2011, 01:02 PM
I don't agree with your interpretation at all in regards to yesterday's game. The run WAS working - it was TOTALLY wearing down KC's defense - it was giving our defense the luxury of standing on the sidelines, to be totally fresh when they came in the game, so WHY should the coaches put in more pass plays??? It had NOTHING to do with trying to make TT look bad - it was ALL about keep DOING what is successful. What IF TT had thrown 10 more passes, and THREE were intercepted, and lead to touchdowns - THEN WHAT?????

While I agree with this post for the most part, the fact that he's thrown only one interception in 105 attempts this season leads me to believe that he would not have thrown anywhere close to 3 interceptions had he thrown 10 more passes.

Northman
11-14-2011, 01:20 PM
e

Try a quick slant, a screen, and out or a bomb down the sidelines. Something that is safe and not likely to be picked off.






No such thing. I watched a QB yesterday throw a ball that a Dlineman interecepted not 4 feet in front of him. The same QB also threw a bomb late in the game that was picked off by overthrowing his receiver. As long as the defense was doing its job there was no need to get stupid yesterday.

Denver Native (Carol)
11-14-2011, 01:28 PM
While I agree with this post for the most part, the fact that he's thrown only one interception in 105 attempts this season leads me to believe that he would not have thrown anywhere close to 3 interceptions had he thrown 10 more passes.

OK - it was just a "what if" - so let me go another direction. What if TT had thrown the ball 10 - 20 more times, and most of those passes were overthrown, thrown away, dropped, and the Broncos were not sustaining drives, were not using up the clock, were not keeping the defense fresh, which resulted in the defense totally dominating the KC offense like they did running the ball?

This is not directed at you BTB, but for anyone who feels the Broncos were not letting TT pass more, because they wanted to make him look bad - do yourself a favor and listen to everything #7 had to say this morning.

One thing he said - not exactly word for word, was:

During his early years, Dan Reeves ran the ball the majority of the time, to protect him (#7), until his passing game improved.

That comment is coming from a Hall of Fame QB in regards to his early years.

Northman
11-14-2011, 01:33 PM
OK - it was just a "what if" - so let me go another direction. What if TT had thrown the ball 10 - 20 more times, and most of those passes were overthrown, thrown away, dropped, and the Broncos were not sustaining drives, were not using up the clock, were not keeping the defense fresh, which resulted in the defense totally dominating the KC offense like they did running the ball?

This is not directed at you BTB, but for anyone who feels the Broncos were not letting TT pass more, because they wanted to make him look bad - do yourself a favor and listen to everything #7 had to say this morning.

One thing he said - not exactly word for word, was:

During his early years, Dan Reeves ran the ball the majority of the time, to protect him (#7), until his passing game improved.

That comment is coming from a Hall of Fame QB in regards to his early years.


You do have a point Carol.

In the game vs Detroit Tim had 1 Int and 3 fumbles although he lost just one of them. Granted, we were playing from behind but considering that our defense was playing great and we could still run the ball effectively with out 3rd string RB i just cant see any logic to taking chance just so his passing stats can look better.

In the end, there will be games where Tebow will have to air it out more. It might even happen thursday but if your in a game where your winning and they cant stop you at what your doing best dont do anything to give it away.

Best example? A few weeks ago Dallas was smashing the Lions. Instead of starting to run out the clock they kept passing the ball and Homo threw 3 Ints in which some got picked off for TD's.

Nope. Denver was in a great position yesterday to just keep doing what was working.

Denver Native (Carol)
11-14-2011, 01:38 PM
You do have a point Carol.

In the game vs Detroit Tim had 1 Int and 3 fumbles although he lost just one of them. Granted, we were playing from behind but considering that our defense was playing great and we could still run the ball effectively with out 3rd string RB i just cant see any logic to taking chance just so his passing stats can look better.

In the end, there will be games where Tebow will have to air it out more. It might even happen thursday but if your in a game where your winning and they cant stop you at what your doing best dont do anything to give it away.

Best example? A few weeks ago Dallas was smashing the Lions. Instead of starting to run out the clock they kept passing the ball and Homo threw 3 Ints in which some got picked off for TD's.

Nope. Denver was in a great position yesterday to just keep doing what was working.

Great points North - and to sum up your post:


IF IT AIN'T BROKE - DON'T FIX IT

TXBRONC
11-14-2011, 01:48 PM
The 8 passes in yesterday's game could have been a little more. The ESPN talking heads were saying that the coaches and team will not continue to win with a game plan of only 8 passes. That was not on Tebow, and he did exactly what the coaches asked. I am glad we won. We really need to let him throw more, since Elway said himself that Tebow needs to improve on his throwing.

Sometimes I feel like the Denver coaches talk out of both sides of their mouths most of the time, I am sure they are not the only organization to do so, not good though. I will take a win no matter what and Decker looked good on that TD yesterday.

The catch 22 in all this, Denver's coaching staff would have had Orton throw 20-25 times yet still somehow would have probably lost the game. Yet, get a Rookie and only PLAN 8 throwing plays and somehow pull off the impossible and win on the road.

To me it shows they do not have confidence in Tebow nor the entire offense which rubs off on the players (they are not stupid).

I don't if we would have lost if Orton had started but certainly doesn't give us the best chance to win.

JBG I wouldn't read into this that Fox doesn't trust Tebow to throw the ball. The Chiefs couldn't stop our running game there really was much call for throwing the ball. Just the week before Tebow threw the ball 21 times which is in the range of what Fox and McCoy want. That doesn't mean that will happen in every game.

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Northman
11-14-2011, 01:55 PM
Whether or not they trust him to throw i dont know. Maybe.

But....the idea is to put your team in the best position to win and if right now Tim is still learning to be a better QB than its better to let the talent around him help carry him until he is ready to take it too another level. Had the Chiefs stopped our run game it may have played out differently as far as pass/run ratio.

Denver Native (Carol)
11-14-2011, 01:59 PM
I can't remember what was said to #7, in regards to one thing, but one of John's comments to it was something like for Tim the rest of the season. So, unless something drastically changes, from John's comment, they will be going with TT for the rest of this season.

Here it is:


“Tim’s going to have to throw the ball the rest of the year, there’s no question,” Elway said. “We want Tim to be able to throw from the pocket, (but) we’re not trying to make him a pocket passer.”

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2011/11/14/broncos-elway-game-vs-kansas-city-dictated-heavy-rushing-attack/10693/

wayninja
11-14-2011, 02:09 PM
I admit, I thought they needed more distance than 7-10 points as I thought KC's offense was going to break out at some point. They never did so I was wrong. 7 points was enough.

I don't see it being a big enough gap all the time though. You take a risk playing conservatively with a slight lead.

Northman
11-14-2011, 02:12 PM
I admit, I thought they needed more distance than 7-10 points as I thought KC's offense was going to break out at some point. They never did so I was wrong. 7 points was enough.

I don't see it being a big enough gap all the time though. You take a risk playing conservatively with a slight lead.


Sure, but when you have a young QB that is still finding his way it doesnt make a lot sense to let him get out of his comfort zone until its necessary.

The Glue Factory
11-14-2011, 02:23 PM
Sure, but when you have a young QB that is still finding his way it doesnt make a lot sense to let him get out of his comfort zone until its necessary.

Additionally, given the defensive nature of the game; even 3 points is huge!

wayninja
11-14-2011, 03:24 PM
Additionally, given the defensive nature of the game; even 3 points is huge!

With average scores of games going up and up. 3 points is not huge.

Denver Native (Carol)
11-14-2011, 03:30 PM
With average scores of games going up and up. 3 points is not huge.

But it was yesterday with the way the defense was stuffing KC's offense.

rcsodak
11-14-2011, 03:48 PM
OK - it was just a "what if" - so let me go another direction. What if TT had thrown the ball 10 - 20 more times, and most of those passes were overthrown, thrown away, dropped, and the Broncos were not sustaining drives, were not using up the clock, were not keeping the defense fresh, which resulted in the defense totally dominating the KC offense like they did running the ball?

This is not directed at you BTB, but for anyone who feels the Broncos were not letting TT pass more, because they wanted to make him look bad - do yourself a favor and listen to everything #7 had to say this morning.

One thing he said - not exactly word for word, was:

During his early years, Dan Reeves ran the ball the majority of the time, to protect him (#7), until his passing game improved.

That comment is coming from a Hall of Fame QB in regards to his early years.

I was there. That wind was funky! Why take a chance when its unnecessary!
Plus, he couldnt even play 'catch' with quinn on the sidelines without making brady run all over the place. I saw that, and i was hoping they kept running in the 2nd half.

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rcsodak
11-14-2011, 03:53 PM
Additionally, given the defensive nature of the game; even 3 points is huge!
Still cant believe prater missed that FG. :mad:
If it wasnt for the plethora of kc dropped passes........

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BroncoBJ
11-14-2011, 04:36 PM
This is the part that always makes me laugh.

Last year on the road vs KC, we are running the ball Great, then after so many runs and so many times it keeps working, we dedice to pass, and we end up losing cause Orton looked terrible.

Then today, we Run run run .. Its working pretty damn good, we win the game, people are pissed cause we didn't pass? Make up your mind.

Some games we'll have to win running the ball 50 times, some games we'll have to win passing the ball 50 times. I do hope we have a game this year, where Tebow has to throw 40 times tho, just cause I want to see how he can do. But I don't want to pass just cause we have nothing better to do.

BroncoStud
11-14-2011, 04:42 PM
This offense will work as long as we don't turn the ball over and the defense keeps teams from scoring in chunks.

Tebow has already shown the capability to score points in a hurry if needed, through the air, and he excels when the situation requires a "backyard" mentality. But this is total ball control, pound it out football. Running through every gap on the line and option on the outside.

As Tebow gets more comfortable throwing the ball and learning the timing of the system it will open up even more.

This is old school Bronko Nagurski football. I love it. We are going to lose some games, we will get shut down by really good defenses, but as it stands, this gives the 2011 Denver Broncos the best chance to succeed.

I give John Fox a LOT of credit for this, he has stuck his neck out and installed a 1960's offense that combines the Wing T with a modern collegiate spread. It took balls and he wasn't afraid to give it a shot. Props to him.

Denver Native (Carol)
11-14-2011, 04:47 PM
Mike Klis, from the DP, was on the ticket not long ago, and Les asked him if he thought this offense would work in the NFL, and Klis said yes, because it has become such an offensive passing game, that teams draft to stop the tall, lanky receivers. Klis said, until/unless that changes, this type of offense will work.

The Glue Factory
11-14-2011, 05:52 PM
With average scores of games going up and up. 3 points is not huge.

uhh.... DId you even watch the game yesterday? I wasn't talking about games in general (nice attempt at spinning this into something it isn't, but you failed), I was speaking about yesterday's game specifically. 3 points in a grind it out kind of game is pretty much like a TD in a game like last week's.

hamrob
11-14-2011, 09:29 PM
I don't agree with your interpretation at all in regards to yesterday's game. The run WAS working - it was TOTALLY wearing down KC's defense - it was giving our defense the luxury of standing on the sidelines, to be totally fresh when they came in the game, so WHY should the coaches put in more pass plays??? It had NOTHING to do with trying to make TT look bad - it was ALL about keep DOING what is successful. What IF TT had thrown 10 more passes, and THREE were intercepted, and lead to touchdowns - THEN WHAT?????I agree that there was a very good reason not to throw more in that game. What we were doing on both sides of the ball was working. You don't want to change it up unless you have to.

Here's the only concern I have.

At some point we will need to throw the ball more to win. My hope would be that each week Tebow is improving in the passing game...so, when that happens we are prepared and have the best chance to win that game. By not getting him more game reps throwing the ball, you limit him some in terms of his learning curve and are actually setting him up for failure.

8 throws is way too few...regardless. We could have had him throw to the TE, the RB or 0 routes like the one that Willis caught. Any good QB Coach/OC understands that you have to build a young QB's confidence....you do that by calling more high percentage throws. That's how you prepare the youngster.

20 throws a game is about where he should be at. I believe we will see that many at least against the Jets...let's hope he's up to the challenge. I have faith in Tebow...the coaches...not so much.

Go Broncos!

Ravage!!!
11-14-2011, 10:56 PM
When ANY talking head said "Denver won't win with Tebow".. they are NOT talking about single individual games. They are talking about consistently and with continued success.

That being said, there is still a GREAT deal of concern about the passing game, because our team WILL have to pass. We won't always play the Chiefs and Miami...and will be behind.

I guess I was just not very impressed at all with the team on Sunday. Running the ball 56 times and completing 2 out of 8, makes me shake my head in shame more than brag about that showing. It was more of a game that was embarrassing for the Chiefs, than something to cheer about for Denver... imo.

But :whoknows:

Dreadnought
11-14-2011, 11:01 PM
When ANY talking head said "Denver won't win with Tebow".. they are NOT talking about single individual games. They are talking about consistently and with continued success.

That being said, there is still a GREAT deal of concern about the passing game, because our team WILL have to pass. We won't always play the Chiefs and Miami...and will be behind.

I guess I was just not very impressed at all with the team on Sunday. Running the ball 56 times and completing 2 out of 8, makes me shake my head in shame more than brag about that showing. It was more of a game that was embarrassing for the Chiefs, than something to cheer about for Denver... imo.

But :whoknows:

C'mon Rav. Winning a game like that is a huge accomplishment. Plus, extremely cool. That was a demoralizing, crushing, emasculating win. Better a win like that than a 21 point win that involved 40 passes in my view...not to complain about any 21 point win, mind you. Tebow didn't throw much, but he threw pretty well - and don't bother with completion % because I flatly don't care. TD, no picks, YPA over 8. Good by me. We didn't throw more because there was no need to - the mark of a dominating win.

HORSEPOWER 56
11-14-2011, 11:33 PM
What everyone keeps glossing over when they discuss Tebow's passing numbers is that of those 8 attempts, 3 were flat out dropped (Decker's first, Royal's shovel pass, Ball's drop), 2 were bad passes (the attempt to Rosario, Decker's second attempt at a deep pass) and one was a possible but would've been a tough catch (Royal's along the sideline that he got one hand on).

Had the three that were "should've caughts" been caught, Tim would've been 5/8 for somewhere in the 120 range. When you run for 250 yards, 120 yards of passing isn't bad numbers. Tebow threw the ball okay yesterday. We didn't have to pass to win so we didn't.

Like I said before, I don't care if Tebow goes 3/20 for 3 yards as long as those 3 passes score TDs or set-up TDs and he's not turning the ball over.

HORSEPOWER 56
11-14-2011, 11:43 PM
When ANY talking head said "Denver won't win with Tebow".. they are NOT talking about single individual games. They are talking about consistently and with continued success.

That being said, there is still a GREAT deal of concern about the passing game, because our team WILL have to pass. We won't always play the Chiefs and Miami...and will be behind.

I guess I was just not very impressed at all with the team on Sunday. Running the ball 56 times and completing 2 out of 8, makes me shake my head in shame more than brag about that showing. It was more of a game that was embarrassing for the Chiefs, than something to cheer about for Denver... imo.

But :whoknows:

But, you have to have single, individual wins in order to have a winning season and in order to get a shot at the post season. One game at a time. Teams wouldn't even play if everyone knew that Tom Brady or Phillys Rivers or Aaron Rodgers was just going to win the Superbowl every year.

How long has it been since the Pats won a Superbowl even though they have arguably the best passer in the league? It takes more than a QB. Rodgers has a fantastic team around him right now and that helps him play lights out. The question is, in December in Green Bay in a snowstorm, I think I'd rather have our style of offense to theirs.

Ravage!!!
11-15-2011, 03:25 AM
Mike Klis, from the DP, was on the ticket not long ago, and Les asked him if he thought this offense would work in the NFL, and Klis said yes, because it has become such an offensive passing game, that teams draft to stop the tall, lanky receivers. Klis said, until/unless that changes, this type of offense will work.

Well.. I think Klis is completely wrong on this.

Ravage!!!
11-15-2011, 03:27 AM
But, you have to have single, individual wins in order to have a winning season and in order to get a shot at the post season. One game at a time. Teams wouldn't even play if everyone knew that Tom Brady or Phillys Rivers or Aaron Rodgers was just going to win the Superbowl every year.

How long has it been since the Pats won a Superbowl even though they have arguably the best passer in the league? It takes more than a QB. Rodgers has a fantastic team around him right now and that helps him play lights out. The question is, in December in Green Bay in a snowstorm, I think I'd rather have our style of offense to theirs.

yes.. it takes more than a QB...but the MOST important person on the field is the QB. That HAS to be a top PASSER to be a consistent contender. Thats been proved time and time and time and time again.

Ravage!!!
11-15-2011, 03:29 AM
C'mon Rav. Winning a game like that is a huge accomplishment. Plus, extremely cool. That was a demoralizing, crushing, emasculating win. Better a win like that than a 21 point win that involved 40 passes in my view...not to complain about any 21 point win, mind you. Tebow didn't throw much, but he threw pretty well - and don't bother with completion % because I flatly don't care. TD, no picks, YPA over 8. Good by me. We didn't throw more because there was no need to - the mark of a dominating win.

Oooo kay. You are seriously going to look at the YPA when the only time they let him throw is to throw it deep to eliminate any kind of reads and minimize the INTs because its an all or nothing scenario? Really? Alright. You would rather look at the YPA... that seems a bit blind to me considering the situation. But if that works for you... ok.

Ravage!!!
11-15-2011, 03:33 AM
Had the three that were "should've caughts" been caught, Tim would've been 5/8 for somewhere in the 120 range. When you run for 250 yards, 120 yards of passing isn't bad numbers. Tebow threw the ball okay yesterday. We didn't have to pass to win so we didn't.



Uhm... those fluttering, wobbly, looking passes he was throwing just as easily could have been INTs on the long balls. He was allowed to throw it deep, shovel, and a pass behind the LoS. I don't know where you are getting all the drops, but you could just as easily "count" the missed INT balls if you are going to play a "what if" game.

TXBRONC
11-15-2011, 07:33 AM
Mike Klis, from the DP, was on the ticket not long ago, and Les asked him if he thought this offense would work in the NFL, and Klis said yes, because it has become such an offensive passing game, that teams draft to stop the tall, lanky receivers. Klis said, until/unless that changes, this type of offense will work.

This type of offense is great for controlling the clock but if you're trailing by double digits this type of offense isn't generally conducive getting points quickly.

Tned
11-15-2011, 09:08 AM
What everyone keeps glossing over when they discuss Tebow's passing numbers is that of those 8 attempts, 3 were flat out dropped (Decker's first, Royal's shovel pass, Ball's drop), 2 were bad passes (the attempt to Rosario, Decker's second attempt at a deep pass) and one was a possible but would've been a tough catch (Royal's along the sideline that he got one hand on).

Had the three that were "should've caughts" been caught, Tim would've been 5/8 for somewhere in the 120 range. When you run for 250 yards, 120 yards of passing isn't bad numbers. Tebow threw the ball okay yesterday. We didn't have to pass to win so we didn't.

Like I said before, I don't care if Tebow goes 3/20 for 3 yards as long as those 3 passes score TDs or set-up TDs and he's not turning the ball over.

In addition to what you stated, which are great points, is the fact that half of his pass attempts were 30+ yards in the air.

Deep Pass 1 Decker - 32 yards in air
Deep Pass 2 Royal - 50+ yards in air
Deep Pass 3 Decker - 48 yards in air
Deep Pass 4 Decker - 45 yards in air (TD)

I don't know what the completion percentage for 30+ yard passes, not to mention 45-50 yard passes, but I would guess that the completion percentage goes way down.

Of those four, Decker had his hands on the first, and it was either a great defensive effort or poor effort by Decker (or a little of both). The first to Royal was either PI or a bad attempt by Royal, because you can't put the ball in much better spot on a sideline throw like that -- maybe a hair shorter, but with both hands up Royal should have been able to come down with it. The second to Decker was underthrown, which in this league the great WR's make a living on, but Tebow didn't help his receiver out with that, but again, it was 48 yards in the air, so we aren't talking precision passing range here. Then, finally the 57 yard TD (45 in the air).

That could easily have been 3/4 on those four deep balls, or 2/4 with a PI call.

If he had thrown it 25+ times, than those deep incompletions, which again I think is probably close to par for the course on balls that deep, would have not jumped out they way they do with the "he only completed 2 of 8 balls".

Elevation inc
11-15-2011, 04:17 PM
3-1 in a 4 game stretch for the first time since 2009 and we are worried about the number of attempts tebow had and how he looked, he scored 14 points, kept the defense fresh and allowed us to beat 2 division teams on the road back to back which no qb in decades had done for denver.....we just rolled over both these teams on the ground and demoralized both of them....thats f'in awsome get a grip people....wins are wins....we dont have tom brady or drew brees or aaron rodgers, but we do have the top ranked rush offense the last 5 weeks and its a landslide lead....not to mention we are averaging over 220 yds rushing in tebows 4 starts thats incredible and does much more for this team and its mentality and defense then 30 pass attempts...

we all wanted a physical punishing team and thats what we have now, we just smashed the tenth ranked rush defense and the 14th ranked rush defense the week prior.....

i find it hilarious we are so concerned with how tebow looks, nothing is ever good enough..........

G_Money
11-15-2011, 05:00 PM
This type of offense is great for controlling the clock but if you're trailing by double digits this type of offense isn't generally conducive getting points quickly.

Absolutely. There will be games where we'll HAVE to throw to win. I thought Tebow already showed that even with crappy footwork and fluttering passes that he can mount a 15 point comeback in 5 minutes.

That's what makes this really interesting for me. If teams force Tebow to pass by putting 8 or 9 in the box, then he'd better be able to pass. If we turn the ball over, get behind...eventually we'll have to throw the ball around. Ball control only works if your D can keep their offense from scoring and you can get consistent first downs on 3rd and short.

But teams playing a prevent D on Tim to protect a lead would be a mistake. He scared the bajeezus out of SD and took out Miami the second he figured out what he was looking at and that the passing lanes were wider.

And this running game should be flat out terrifying, especially as we include more boots and naked boots to it, change up the option possibilities, etc.

Now, it wasn't exactly terrifying to the Lions, who demolished us - but we weren't ready for them.

The more comfortable we get in an offense that includes a running QB the more interesting this will get. Tebow HAS to throw, and throw well, for us to win a lot of games and notch some playoff victories in the future. There's no denying it.

The 49ers currently rank 31st in pass attempts and 29th in passing yards with some schmoe named Alex Smith having good success in limited exposure. He's had one game with more than 230 yards passing and six under 200 (three under 135).

They win because they run the ball and crush the running game of the opposition, and because Smith is being remarkably accurate (for once) while keeping the turnovers to a minimum. It took him 6 years to figure out how to do this, and about 3 weeks for Harbaugh to account for Smith's weaknesses and mask them with team strengths.

They made it easy on him, and the whole team is believing, and succeeding. They have more talent than we do, but our team - Fox included - is also starting to believe we can win.

Tim cannot play exactly like this and get us to a Super Bowl.

But can Tim play IN THIS STYLE for some of the game and improve enough with his passing game to do so? That's what I'm watching for the rest of the season.

I read a comment today:


Other teams (like the Panthers with Cam Newton and the Bills with Brad Smith) have certainly sprinkled some elements of the formation into their playbooks. However, no team has featured the play as prominently as the Broncos did in their 38-24 win over the Raiders.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d823f11ac/article/zoneread-option-leads-to-big-results-for-tebow-broncos

It just reminds me of the talk about our ZBS with Shanny in the Super Bowl era. "Everybody runs some ZBS plays. Nobody runs as many of them as the Broncos." And nobody had as consistently great a running attack as the Broncos either.

I don't mind being great at something - it sure helps you win more than being mediocre at everything, and we were pretty bad at things before.

The Eagles were a pass-happy machine who used the pass as a short run, were bottom of the league in running nearly every year, and made a ton of conference championships and a Super Bowl playing that way.

Is it possible for us to use the read-option/triple-option as a short pass and have success that way?

I would prefer not to have had to run the experiment to find out, but since we ARE running it, I'm quite curious to see it proven on the field.

~G

Lancane
11-15-2011, 08:05 PM
Sorry, I'm not buying it...and I don't believe Elway is either.


"Tim needs to be a better pocket passer but we are not going to make him a pocket passer." - John Elway

To me, the above entitled quote is meant as an oxymoron statement that I think some of the deluded have come to grasp as contentiousness rather then as one of admonition. 'He needs to be, but we will not make him?', sounds like they don't have faith in Tebow to conform into a pro-quarterback, that indeed, what you see is what you get...and I truly don't believe that Elway sees Tebow as the quarterback of the future regarding this franchise.

As I eluded to earlier, a good number of fans just don't see or comprehend the bigger picture that general managers and executives must, even head coaches at times don't grasp the overall intent of those who hired them, but in this case I think Fox is in the loop. Broncos' fans are giddy because the team has won three games in a four game span with figuratively the worst quarterback in the NFL and did it because they've allowed him to do so little regarding the position for those four contests, it would be fair to say that besides the Miami game that the last two wins have been complete team efforts and just as winnable without him.

And I'm not hating on the kid, I actually believe that he could do no worse statistically if he was allowed to throw about twenty, twenty-five times per game, it's the organization itself that has no faith in him to do so competently and within a margin that is acceptable, that's my opinion and one that shared by several people I know. Denver literally has had chances to open up the passing game due to the success of the run game, there is no reason, none whatsoever for them to keep a leash on Tebow and to not allow him to expand in that area, he's never going to develop into a NFL capable quarterback if you hinder his growth, and I think the Broncos mean to do just that - not necessarily hindering him, but no longer expanding time and energy helping him to improve, as though they've come to accept what a good number of fans can not. No, it's not a conspiracy theory, but anyone with a brain and a decent IQ can discern that Elway's comment is on par with others he's made, which are both of praise and admonishment in the same sense.

No team has won an NFL title in the last two decades without a quarterback who is at least mundanely capable in the passing game, that is a fact. And only two or three have won without a franchise capable quarterback. Elway knows this, Fox knows this as does Xanders and Bowlen. In fact anyone with an inkling of football knowledge knows that, that is true.

Denver is winning, but they won't continue to win, especially as a one dimensional team, which they are at this time. No matter how much some want to believe that they can, or Tebow will lift them beyond what was once the norm, those who believe that are blinded by the simple feat of a few wins, and wins I might add I think Orton could have easily won as well, and I hate saying that.

Tned
11-15-2011, 08:27 PM
Quoted for future reference.


Sorry, I'm not buying it...and I don't believe Elway is either.



To me, the above entitled quote is meant as an oxymoron statement that I think some of the deluded have come to grasp as contentiousness rather then as one of admonition. 'He needs to be, but we will not make him?', sounds like they don't have faith in Tebow to conform into a pro-quarterback, that indeed, what you see is what you get...and I truly don't believe that Elway sees Tebow as the quarterback of the future regarding this franchise.

As I eluded to earlier, a good number of fans just don't see or comprehend the bigger picture that general managers and executives must, even head coaches at times don't grasp the overall intent of those who hired them, but in this case I think Fox is in the loop. Broncos' fans are giddy because the team has won three games in a four game span with figuratively the worst quarterback in the NFL and did it because they've allowed him to do so little regarding the position for those four contests, it would be fair to say that besides the Miami game that the last two wins have been complete team efforts and just as winnable without him.

And I'm not hating on the kid, I actually believe that he could do no worse statistically if he was allowed to throw about twenty, twenty-five times per game, it's the organization itself that has no faith in him to do so competently and within a margin that is acceptable, that's my opinion and one that shared by several people I know. Denver literally has had chances to open up the passing game due to the success of the run game, there is no reason, none whatsoever for them to keep a leash on Tebow and to not allow him to expand in that area, he's never going to develop into a NFL capable quarterback if you hinder his growth, and I think the Broncos mean to do just that - not necessarily hindering him, but no longer expanding time and energy helping him to improve, as though they've come to accept what a good number of fans can not. No, it's not a conspiracy theory, but anyone with a brain and a decent IQ can discern that Elway's comment is on par with others he's made, which are both of praise and admonishment in the same sense.

No team has won an NFL title in the last two decades without a quarterback who is at least mundanely capable in the passing game, that is a fact. And only two or three have won without a franchise capable quarterback. Elway knows this, Fox knows this as does Xanders and Bowlen. In fact anyone with an inkling of football knowledge knows that, that is true.

Denver is winning, but they won't continue to win, especially as a one dimensional team, which they are at this time. No matter how much some want to believe that they can, or Tebow will lift them beyond what was once the norm, those who believe that are blinded by the simple feat of a few wins, and wins I might add I think Orton could have easily won as well, and I hate saying that.

catfish
11-15-2011, 08:36 PM
Sorry, I'm not buying it...and I don't believe Elway is either.



To me, the above entitled quote is meant as an oxymoron statement that I think some of the deluded have come to grasp as contentiousness rather then as one of admonition. 'He needs to be, but we will not make him?', sounds like they don't have faith in Tebow to conform into a pro-quarterback, that indeed, what you see is what you get...and I truly don't believe that Elway sees Tebow as the quarterback of the future regarding this franchise.

As I eluded to earlier, a good number of fans just don't see or comprehend the bigger picture that general managers and executives must, even head coaches at times don't grasp the overall intent of those who hired them, but in this case I think Fox is in the loop. Broncos' fans are giddy because the team has won three games in a four game span with figuratively the worst quarterback in the NFL and did it because they've allowed him to do so little regarding the position for those four contests, it would be fair to say that besides the Miami game that the last two wins have been complete team efforts and just as winnable without him.

And I'm not hating on the kid, I actually believe that he could do no worse statistically if he was allowed to throw about twenty, twenty-five times per game, it's the organization itself that has no faith in him to do so competently and within a margin that is acceptable, that's my opinion and one that shared by several people I know. Denver literally has had chances to open up the passing game due to the success of the run game, there is no reason, none whatsoever for them to keep a leash on Tebow and to not allow him to expand in that area, he's never going to develop into a NFL capable quarterback if you hinder his growth, and I think the Broncos mean to do just that - not necessarily hindering him, but no longer expanding time and energy helping him to improve, as though they've come to accept what a good number of fans can not. No, it's not a conspiracy theory, but anyone with a brain and a decent IQ can discern that Elway's comment is on par with others he's made, which are both of praise and admonishment in the same sense.

No team has won an NFL title in the last two decades without a quarterback who is at least mundanely capable in the passing game, that is a fact. And only two or three have won without a franchise capable quarterback. Elway knows this, Fox knows this as does Xanders and Bowlen. In fact anyone with an inkling of football knowledge knows that, that is true.

Denver is winning, but they won't continue to win, especially as a one dimensional team, which they are at this time. No matter how much some want to believe that they can, or Tebow will lift them beyond what was once the norm, those who believe that are blinded by the simple feat of a few wins, and wins I might add I think Orton could have easily won as well, and I hate saying that.

I may be mistaken, but wasn't the quote"we want Tim to be able to throw from the pocket, but we don't want to make him a pocket passer"?

G_Money
11-15-2011, 08:55 PM
Lancane...

If you're gonna quote John Elway please actually QUOTE him.


But don’t expect the same type of extraordinary unbalance as the season wears on. Elway said Tebow will be throwing more.

“Tim’s going to have to throw the ball the rest of the year, there’s no question,” Elway said. “We want Tim to be able to throw from the pocket, (but) we’re not trying to make him a pocket passer.”

The one extra "passer" you added changes the whole tone of the quote.

I read the correct quote as, "Tim needs to be able to complete throws from the pocket, but we'll make sure he stays mobile to take full advantage of his skillset - we'll never ask him to be JUST a pocket passer."

Which is FINE. Jake Plummer got to keep his rollouts and bootlegs, why can't Tebow keep his read-option?

We'll see how the team treats him going forward. If he's throwing 8 passes every week, then you're right, they obviously don't have faith. But protecting him and working him up to 20-25 competent passes by the end of the season is just being smart with your investment, if you're truly going to make it.

Throwing him out there at halftime of the SD game is not protecting him. Keeping him away from working with the 1s in training camp is not helpful long-term.

So are the Broncos now looking at short term wins for some reason (while revamping the entire offense) before dumping Tim overboard and going back to a more conventional QB? Or are they now doing what they can to make sure he can be successful in the meantime as they take a year or two to round him into proper shape?

Because no, THIS version of Tebow cannot win a Super Bowl. But SOME version of Tebow absolutely could, just as Steve McNair could have once he finally rounded into pro-QB shape.

Whether Elway is willing to put in the time and effort on Tebow to both run an unconventional offense AND train him how to do the conventional things more effectively? I don't know.

Alfred Williams doesn't think so.

But Tim can change minds over the next few weeks, and I'm curious to see if he can get Elway in his corner by the end of the season.

And I can't say right now that it's impossible either. Elway certainly hasn't said anything that I've heard that would make me think it's a herculean task that can't be completed.

Tebow's washing out those stables as we speak.

~G

Broncogator
11-15-2011, 09:11 PM
I was at the game..and as far as I know we won..bottom line and it wasn't that ugly to watch. Maybe I'm bias but good game for me!

Tned
11-15-2011, 09:16 PM
So are the Broncos now looking at short term wins for some reason (while revamping the entire offense) before dumping Tim overboard and going back to a more conventional QB? Or are they now doing what they can to make sure he can be successful in the meantime as they take a year or two to round him into proper shape?


I liked this quote from Fox today about the notion that he and Elway don't want to Tebow to succeed, because they didn't draft him:


"Well, that doesn't make much sense to me,” Fox said. “Like buying a Ferrari and pouring sugar into the gas tank.”

http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2011/11/darrelle_revis_doesnt_think_ti.html

G_Money
11-15-2011, 09:21 PM
Denver is winning, but they won't continue to win, especially as a one dimensional team, which they are at this time.

And before I forget...

The Eagles made a bunch of championship games and a Super Bowl they absolutely could have won as a ridiculously one-dimensional offense. Peyton Manning and the Colts won a Super Bowl while being the worst rushing team in the league. Being one-dimensional works fine as long as you can do ENOUGH in the other aspects.

Tim has to beat the one-on-one matchups that come from being a monstrous rushing attack (assuming we could/would keep that up). Once the other team determines that they WILL stop you at what you're good at, then you have to do just enough to keep them honest.

And if they won't be honest, you have to hurt them.

We'll need a defense to win this way. I'm not against building a great defense - I love defensive football.

But it ain't impossible.

~G

Dreadnought
11-15-2011, 09:26 PM
I liked this quote from Fox today about the notion that he and Elway don't want to Tebow to succeed, because they didn't draft him:


"Well, that doesn't make much sense to me,” Fox said. “Like buying a Ferrari and pouring sugar into the gas tank.”

http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2011/11/darrelle_revis_doesnt_think_ti.html

Great coaches can win with different formulas. Don Shula's 1960's Colts were a pass first, run second team that depended heavily on Johnny Unitas' deep balls. Don Shula's Dolphins of the 70's were as run heavy as you could ask...11 passing attempts in one Superbowl win and all of 7 in the other. With Dan Marino they lit up the airways in the 80's and 90's. Bottom line is he didn't make the terrible mistake of falling in love with his own system or plan, the sure sign of a second or third rater. Elway and Fox didn't draft Tebow, and they didn't ask for him. I bet they wouldn't have drafted him. They aren't being stubborn either, and its working pretty well in its infancy - well enough that unless the wheels come off completely over the next two months I think this is our basic offense for the next few years at least. Now to add flexibility and some more mid range passing...thats what I want to see.

wayninja
11-15-2011, 09:31 PM
When ANY talking head said "Denver won't win with Tebow".. they are NOT talking about single individual games. They are talking about consistently and with continued success.

That being said, there is still a GREAT deal of concern about the passing game, because our team WILL have to pass. We won't always play the Chiefs and Miami...and will be behind.

I guess I was just not very impressed at all with the team on Sunday. Running the ball 56 times and completing 2 out of 8, makes me shake my head in shame more than brag about that showing. It was more of a game that was embarrassing for the Chiefs, than something to cheer about for Denver... imo.

But :whoknows:

Wow, hard to please some people. Defense played lights out and buried Cassell. Running game had another dominating performance. Tebow didn't turn the ball over and launched a beautiful, 56 yard bomb to Decker perfectly in stride to seal the deal.

I'm bragging even if you aren't.

G_Money
11-15-2011, 09:36 PM
I liked this quote from Fox today about the notion that he and Elway don't want to Tebow to succeed, because they didn't draft him:


"Well, that doesn't make much sense to me,” Fox said. “Like buying a Ferrari and pouring sugar into the gas tank.”

http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2011/11/darrelle_revis_doesnt_think_ti.html

Hadn't heard that one. :lol: Fox had a rep of being the most boring interview, but I haven't noticed that at all.

~G

Tned
11-15-2011, 10:11 PM
Hadn't heard that one. :lol: Fox had a rep of being the most boring interview, but I haven't noticed that at all.

~G

Don't know if you have Sirius, but he's great in his Tuesday afternoon spot with Tim and PK. They apparently have a great relationship from when he was in Carolina and they are always joking around and having fun with the topics.

Lancane
11-15-2011, 10:18 PM
Lancane...

If you're gonna quote John Elway please actually QUOTE him.

The one extra "passer" you added changes the whole tone of the quote.

I read the correct quote as, "Tim needs to be able to complete throws from the pocket, but we'll make sure he stays mobile to take full advantage of his skillset - we'll never ask him to be JUST a pocket passer."

Which is FINE. Jake Plummer got to keep his rollouts and bootlegs, why can't Tebow keep his read-option?

I quoted what was told to me was said verbatim, for that I apologize, even then...there wasn't that much difference, no matter the spin you want to put on it, it doesn't change the sustenance what has been and was said, tone or not. And truthfully, that is one that can be taken from the eye of the beholder, but I am also going off what has previously been said up to this point which holds just as much weight when weighing certain statements.

There is no problem with them keeping a read-option and using it sparingly, but to build an offense around any option, triple or otherwise is folly, of course that is just my opinion. People will argue till they're blue in the face because that is the nature of humans, whether right or wrong, everyone thinks they are right or have an inkling of some insight, not condemning just telling it how it is. Everything for everyone comes from their own beliefs, insight and developed opinions.


We'll see how the team treats him going forward. If he's throwing 8 passes every week, then you're right, they obviously don't have faith. But protecting him and working him up to 20-25 competent passes by the end of the season is just being smart with your investment, if you're truly going to make it.

Eh, really? I'll tell you what I see...I see a team, that had Tebow in two contests using a pro-style offensive system in which he failed to run completely or maybe up to their standards, except that he nearly had a come back win against San Diego and he won against Miami and even then the spread at the end was more of a pro-style scheme. If you go back last season McCoy did the same thing, Tebow ran the Air-Erhardt against Houston well, the next game against San Diego it looked more like the Urban Meyer's Spread Option and his numbers dropped. It's almost as if they're (and this sounds sort of wrong) but that they don't want him to develop into a pro-style quarterback. Even Tebow has admitted that he wants to be a pocket passing quarterback, so why?


Throwing him out there at halftime of the SD game is not protecting him. Keeping him away from working with the 1s in training camp is not helpful long-term.

That's a matter of opinion G, and you know it. He had over a full season under a professional coaching staff and another month under another which was only partially different. He had more time then others have been allowed respectively.


So are the Broncos now looking at short term wins for some reason (while revamping the entire offense) before dumping Tim overboard and going back to a more conventional QB? Or are they now doing what they can to make sure he can be successful in the meantime as they take a year or two to round him into proper shape?

Is not the measure of a man how he responds after being knocked down? And I ask only because I fail to see what positives will come of them holding his hand! If he has the meddle to succeed, then let him test whilst in the fire...not forcing him to conform, adopting a collegiate system, and not allowing him to pass the ball more, no matter the mistakes is nothing more then coddling, and nine times out of ten such actions backfire.

You've got to wonder how frustrated Tebow is with this all, I'm sure he's glad he's winning games...but I'd bet my summer home in Michigan that he's not happy with his progress nor the steps the team has made in allowing him to develop as a quarterback.


Because no, THIS version of Tebow cannot win a Super Bowl. But SOME version of Tebow absolutely could, just as Steve McNair could have once he finally rounded into pro-QB shape.

Sorry, I don't see it, McNair and Young, two great examples of quarterbacks who could at least pass efficiently even while being mobile. If Tebow had the arm of Vince Young or Randall Cunningham, few if any would have doubts, it's the fact that he doesn't have such an arm and the teams actions which leave room for more and more doubt.


Whether Elway is willing to put in the time and effort on Tebow to both run an unconventional offense AND train him how to do the conventional things more effectively? I don't know.

Alfred Williams doesn't think so.

That sort of the point, all things said G, I don't feel they're going to expend that much more on him or they wouldn't say this or do that...you know? They can manage games or forge game plans with him in the lineup that exclude him doing much, that was obvious with Kansas City.

I agree with Williams, and Shapiro, and Lambardi, and a handful of others on this issue.


But Tim can change minds over the next few weeks, and I'm curious to see if he can get Elway in his corner by the end of the season.

Sure, he could...but are they going to allow him? If there no longer willing to force him to conform to be a more competent pocket passer and fit into a pro-style system...do you really see them allowing him to expand the passing game against better teams? I would have allowed him to pass against the weaker and build confidence.


And I can't say right now that it's impossible either. Elway certainly hasn't said anything that I've heard that would make me think it's a herculean task that can't be completed.

Tebow's washing out those stables as we speak.

Of course Elway hasn't implied that the task is for not, he says as much positive as negative, that was another point I was trying to make earlier. I think he's resigned to the fact that Tebow is not the answer, again that is my opinion so people should not get all bent out of shape. I think that if Elway or this staff believed that, then they would allow him to throw more and let him take his bumps as he grows.

And regarding the Philadelphia comment, almost doesn't cut it. Look at Pittsburgh, they almost a good number of times...it took getting the right quarterback to go all the way, who wants to be an almost? There is no reward for second place!

;)

Shazam!
11-15-2011, 10:26 PM
When ANY talking head said "Denver won't win with Tebow".. they are NOT talking about single individual games. They are talking about consistently and with continued success.

That being said, there is still a GREAT deal of concern about the passing game, because our team WILL have to pass. We won't always play the Chiefs and Miami...and will be behind.

I guess I was just not very impressed at all with the team on Sunday. Running the ball 56 times and completing 2 out of 8, makes me shake my head in shame more than brag about that showing. It was more of a game that was embarrassing for the Chiefs, than something to cheer about for Denver... imo.

But :whoknows:

Did you enjoy the predictable offense and constant losing with Kyle Orton better?

The Broncos are WINNING and that's all we should care about.

IF they stick with Tim and with a whole offseason to work on his passing he'll be ok. I think the lockout hurt him more than any other player in the NFL.

G_Money
11-16-2011, 12:00 AM
Stuff

Can't really reply to that, man, certainly not to argue over interpretations. It seems like lot of personal desire and interpretation based around a few kernels of information that can be interpreted differently by different people, and we just have different conclusions. You're entitled to believe that it will never happen with Tebow and that the Broncos will make sure it doesn't. There are facts that support your case for sure. All I can do is say that I won't be bent out of shape if Tebow's not the man next year, but that I believe he could be and that it hasn't been decided.

Either way, I hope it's the right guy. Dan Marino and Jim Kelly were the wrong guys according to your standards and Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson were the right ones, so whatever team we build I hope the whole can bring home a championship. :salute:

Because the last 4 or 5 iterations of the Broncos since Elway certainly have not been capable of it.

~G

slim
11-16-2011, 07:48 AM
When ANY talking head said "Denver won't win with Tebow".. they are NOT talking about single individual games. They are talking about consistently and with continued success.

That being said, there is still a GREAT deal of concern about the passing game, because our team WILL have to pass. We won't always play the Chiefs and Miami...and will be behind.

I guess I was just not very impressed at all with the team on Sunday. Running the ball 56 times and completing 2 out of 8, makes me shake my head in shame more than brag about that showing. It was more of a game that was embarrassing for the Chiefs, than something to cheer about for Denver... imo.

But :whoknows:

Wow.

Tned
11-16-2011, 08:03 AM
Wow.

Yea, amazing.

slim
11-16-2011, 08:11 AM
Yea, amazing.

Back-to-back road wins against the Chiefs and Raiders....not just wins, but physically dominating performances that were embarrassing and dehumanizing to both of those teams and their fans.

Yeah, that sucked.

Tned
11-16-2011, 08:31 AM
Back-to-back road wins against the Chiefs and Raiders....not just wins, but physically dominating performances that were embarrassing and dehumanizing to both of those teams and their fans.

Yeah, that sucked.

Yea, I'm just amazed at some of the reactions to winning. It must be like the fear of freedom after long term captivity. After only having 7 wins in the 34 games or so before Tebow took over and having the worst record in the NFL during that stretch, I think some fans are just a little afraid of winning -- of opening themselves up to the wins.

I call it the McDaniels/Orton Mile Low Syndrome. NIH has been in contact with me to create an official medical classification to start teaching doctors in school.

TXBRONC
11-16-2011, 01:38 PM
Absolutely. There will be games where we'll HAVE to throw to win. I thought Tebow already showed that even with crappy footwork and fluttering passes that he can mount a 15 point comeback in 5 minutes.

That's what makes this really interesting for me. If teams force Tebow to pass by putting 8 or 9 in the box, then he'd better be able to pass. If we turn the ball over, get behind...eventually we'll have to throw the ball around. Ball control only works if your D can keep their offense from scoring and you can get consistent first downs on 3rd and short.

But teams playing a prevent D on Tim to protect a lead would be a mistake. He scared the bajeezus out of SD and took out Miami the second he figured out what he was looking at and that the passing lanes were wider.

And this running game should be flat out terrifying, especially as we include more boots and naked boots to it, change up the option possibilities, etc.

Now, it wasn't exactly terrifying to the Lions, who demolished us - but we weren't ready for them.

The more comfortable we get in an offense that includes a running QB the more interesting this will get. Tebow HAS to throw, and throw well, for us to win a lot of games and notch some playoff victories in the future. There's no denying it.

The 49ers currently rank 31st in pass attempts and 29th in passing yards with some schmoe named Alex Smith having good success in limited exposure. He's had one game with more than 230 yards passing and six under 200 (three under 135).

They win because they run the ball and crush the running game of the opposition, and because Smith is being remarkably accurate (for once) while keeping the turnovers to a minimum. It took him 6 years to figure out how to do this, and about 3 weeks for Harbaugh to account for Smith's weaknesses and mask them with team strengths.

They made it easy on him, and the whole team is believing, and succeeding. They have more talent than we do, but our team - Fox included - is also starting to believe we can win.

Tim cannot play exactly like this and get us to a Super Bowl.

But can Tim play IN THIS STYLE for some of the game and improve enough with his passing game to do so? That's what I'm watching for the rest of the season.

I read a comment today:



http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d823f11ac/article/zoneread-option-leads-to-big-results-for-tebow-broncos

It just reminds me of the talk about our ZBS with Shanny in the Super Bowl era. "Everybody runs some ZBS plays. Nobody runs as many of them as the Broncos." And nobody had as consistently great a running attack as the Broncos either.

I don't mind being great at something - it sure helps you win more than being mediocre at everything, and we were pretty bad at things before.

The Eagles were a pass-happy machine who used the pass as a short run, were bottom of the league in running nearly every year, and made a ton of conference championships and a Super Bowl playing that way.

Is it possible for us to use the read-option/triple-option as a short pass and have success that way?

I would prefer not to have had to run the experiment to find out, but since we ARE running it, I'm quite curious to see it proven on the field.

~G

I have no problem with Denver being the best at running the ball, I'm just concerned about our ability to throw the ball. I think Denver runs the ball well enough that a play action passing could be tough to contend with if Tebow can be a more accurate passer. Can Tebow become a more accurate passer in the middle of a season? Probably not because they just don't have that kind of time to work on his footwork.

I heard Fox just recently say that he wants have more balance in the run to pass ratio but he also knows that right now they have to lean a little on the run. That said I don't think 56 times is indicative of what he means. Also listening to some of the talking heads believe that situation in K.C. didn't call for Denver to pass because they had the lead and the Chiefs couldn't stop the run so there wasn't much call for putting the ball in the air.

Slick
11-16-2011, 02:28 PM
Sorry, I'm not buying it...and I don't believe Elway is either.



To me, the above entitled quote is meant as an oxymoron statement that I think some of the deluded have come to grasp as contentiousness rather then as one of admonition. 'He needs to be, but we will not make him?', sounds like they don't have faith in Tebow to conform into a pro-quarterback, that indeed, what you see is what you get...and I truly don't believe that Elway sees Tebow as the quarterback of the future regarding this franchise.

As I eluded to earlier, a good number of fans just don't see or comprehend the bigger picture that general managers and executives must, even head coaches at times don't grasp the overall intent of those who hired them, but in this case I think Fox is in the loop. Broncos' fans are giddy because the team has won three games in a four game span with figuratively the worst quarterback in the NFL and did it because they've allowed him to do so little regarding the position for those four contests, it would be fair to say that besides the Miami game that the last two wins have been complete team efforts and just as winnable without him.

And I'm not hating on the kid, I actually believe that he could do no worse statistically if he was allowed to throw about twenty, twenty-five times per game, it's the organization itself that has no faith in him to do so competently and within a margin that is acceptable, that's my opinion and one that shared by several people I know. Denver literally has had chances to open up the passing game due to the success of the run game, there is no reason, none whatsoever for them to keep a leash on Tebow and to not allow him to expand in that area, he's never going to develop into a NFL capable quarterback if you hinder his growth, and I think the Broncos mean to do just that - not necessarily hindering him, but no longer expanding time and energy helping him to improve, as though they've come to accept what a good number of fans can not. No, it's not a conspiracy theory, but anyone with a brain and a decent IQ can discern that Elway's comment is on par with others he's made, which are both of praise and admonishment in the same sense.

No team has won an NFL title in the last two decades without a quarterback who is at least mundanely capable in the passing game, that is a fact. And only two or three have won without a franchise capable quarterback. Elway knows this, Fox knows this as does Xanders and Bowlen. In fact anyone with an inkling of football knowledge knows that, that is true.

Denver is winning, but they won't continue to win, especially as a one dimensional team, which they are at this time. No matter how much some want to believe that they can, or Tebow will lift them beyond what was once the norm, those who believe that are blinded by the simple feat of a few wins, and wins I might add I think Orton could have easily won as well, and I hate saying that.

We would never, ever be able to run like we have over the last two weeks with Orton under center. No freaking way.

Also, don't confuse "hope that Tebow will improve other aspects of his game" with being blinded by the simple feat of a few wins.

Tned
11-16-2011, 03:39 PM
We would never, ever be able to run like we have over the last two weeks with Orton under center. No freaking way.

Also, don't confuse "hope that Tebow will improve other aspects of his game" with being blinded by the simple feat of a few wins.

It's what I've termed "coincidental winning." People saying, "see, with this running game, Orton or Brady could have won easier, because they pass better" and "the team isn't winning, because of Tebow, but because the defense is playing better and the running game is better. These are team wins."

It's a complete confidence that the 7-27 team over the last 34 games that was 1-4 this season, just happened to start winning when Tebow took over as QB....