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Ziggy
11-14-2011, 03:41 AM
While I'm not a believer that the read option offense will stick in the NFL long term, I'm here to give some hope to those who do. It will take another first round pick, and cajones the size of watermelons to try.

Let's say that the Broncos win 4 more games and finish 8-8 on the season. That's double the win total from last season, and marked improvement. We have a decent young offensive line that's improving every week in the run game. We have a run first head coach, and and offensive coordinator that can game plan for those strengths. In this scenario, Elway decides to stick with this offense and build around it.

Now, he knows that you can't build this offense around just 1 QB who can run it, and we all know that QB's go down regularly in the NFL. The Broncos end up picking somewhere between 10-20 in the next draft. Enter RG3, another read option QB with great upside who has been extremely accurate in college but is probably better suited for a read option offense than a conventional passing one. We now have another read option QB with better speed, and possibly more accuracy than Tebow. The Broncos now have the tools to play out this scenario long term without 1 injury derailing the entire offense.

While free agent WR's and pass catching TE's will avoid Denver like the plague, offensive lineman, fullbacks, running backs, and blocking tight ends will be jumping at the chance to come here and play. This team is already building a defense that can compliment a running offense, so the rebuilding plan is accelerated by a year or two.

While I hate watching a QB throw the ball only 8 times a game, I love to watch the Broncos ramming the ball down the opposing D's throat and crushing thier will. Bring in RG3, a good young running back either in free agency or the draft, and continue to build the D. Will the team be able to overcome large leads? Not a chance, but those large leads would be few and far between when the opposing offense doesn't spend much time on the field. In the mean time, we develop these young QB's into running QB's that can actually pass some. As they come along, the offense gets more balanced, more dangerous.

Just a thought for those who really, really want this current scheme to work. I'd give it about a 2% chance of actually happening, but an imagination is a wonderful thing.

claymore
11-14-2011, 07:31 AM
I hope Tebow/Broncos evolve because I dont see this shit lasting long, and we took ourselves out of position to get one of the top 2 QB's.

Its hard to bitch about wins, but so far it looks like we replaced our most needed position with gimicks.

threefolddead
11-14-2011, 08:10 AM
DO NOT BUILD AROUND A GIMMICKY OFFENSE. I have no interest in following the Dolphins. Tebow needs to become a real QB who can make reads and throw with some accuracy.

claymore
11-14-2011, 08:54 AM
DO NOT BUILD AROUND A GIMMICKY OFFENSE. I have no interest in following the Dolphins. Tebow needs to become a real QB who can make reads and throw with some accuracy.

Thats my exact comparison. I think we are in my worst case scenario right now. If we dont fix the QB position (either Tebow or draft) we will be starting from scratch in another couple years.

Mediocre Tebow puts us behind an additional 2-3 years. Maybe more.

Tned
11-14-2011, 09:14 AM
Thats my exact comparison. I think we are in my worst case scenario right now. If we dont fix the QB position (either Tebow or draft) we will be starting from scratch in another couple years.

Mediocre Tebow puts us behind an additional 2-3 years. Maybe more.

Two thoughts.

First, I don't think you can really compare the run first, run second, run third Tebow offense to Miami's wildcat offense. In the wildcat, there was really no pass threat and if they passed at all it was a short pass. Did Ronnie Brown or Ricky Williams ever hit a WR on a 57 yard deep route -- 35+ yards in the air? No.

Second, even if Tebow does enough to get the 2012 starting job and then fails and the Broncos have to draft another QB, it doesn't necessarily put the team back an additional 2-3 years from drafting a QB in 2012. We still have the second youngest offensive line in the NFL that's developing. A VERY young receiving corp. Young players on defense. Etc. All of those pieces will develop and hopefully form a long-term nucleus, whether Tebow is QB one more year or not.

TXBRONC
11-14-2011, 09:22 AM
While I'm not a believer that the read option offense will stick in the NFL long term, I'm here to give some hope to those who do. It will take another first round pick, and cajones the size of watermelons to try.

Let's say that the Broncos win 4 more games and finish 8-8 on the season. That's double the win total from last season, and marked improvement. We have a decent young offensive line that's improving every week in the run game. We have a run first head coach, and and offensive coordinator that can game plan for those strengths. In this scenario, Elway decides to stick with this offense and build around it.

Now, he knows that you can't build this offense around just 1 QB who can run it, and we all know that QB's go down regularly in the NFL. The Broncos end up picking somewhere between 10-20 in the next draft. Enter RG3, another read option QB with great upside who has been extremely accurate in college but is probably better suited for a read option offense than a conventional passing one. We now have another read option QB with better speed, and possibly more accuracy than Tebow. The Broncos now have the tools to play out this scenario long term without 1 injury derailing the entire offense.

While free agent WR's and pass catching TE's will avoid Denver like the plague, offensive lineman, fullbacks, running backs, and blocking tight ends will be jumping at the chance to come here and play. This team is already building a defense that can compliment a running offense, so the rebuilding plan is accelerated by a year or two.

While I hate watching a QB throw the ball only 8 times a game, I love to watch the Broncos ramming the ball down the opposing D's throat and crushing thier will. Bring in RG3, a good young running back either in free agency or the draft, and continue to build the D. Will the team be able to overcome large leads? Not a chance, but those large leads would be few and far between when the opposing offense doesn't spend much time on the field. In the mean time, we develop these young QB's into running QB's that can actually pass some. As they come along, the offense gets more balanced, more dangerous.

Just a thought for those who really, really want this current scheme to work. I'd give it about a 2% chance of actually happening, but an imagination is a wonderful thing.

I don't think it will work long term. But there is no way throwing the ball only 8 times a game is going to work for 16 games.

Tned
11-14-2011, 09:24 AM
Thats my exact comparison. I think we are in my worst case scenario right now. If we dont fix the QB position (either Tebow or draft) we will be starting from scratch in another couple years.

Mediocre Tebow puts us behind an additional 2-3 years. Maybe more.

Oh, the other point I forgot to make, when comparing to Miami, when the Broncos came back in the Miami game, there is no way that type of a comeback happens with a wildcat running back. So, you have to switch back and forth between a standard QB and Wildcat RB. That is nothing close to what the Broncos are doing.

I'm still not sold on Tebow. I'm not willing to write him off as some of you guys are doing, because we haven't seen enough to know if he should be written off. On the other hand, I'm not willing to claim he will be a good, long term starter in the NFL, because we haven't seen enough to know if he's capable of that.

Dreadnought
11-14-2011, 09:38 AM
I've said before that the spread option can be a thing we do, not the thing we do. We added a few new wrinkles to the offense between the Raiders and Chiefs game (e.g. running plays using Royal and Larsen), and I'm hoping we add a few more before the Jets, and so on. The whole thing is extremely encouraging and a lot of fun to watch.

Just because we are running a lot doesn't mean we aren't being creative. The offense has used a lot of deception and misdirection, all of which has the defenses overthinking things. The long TD pass to Decker was the ultimate payoff to all of it, and we will see more of that. I am totally good with the pass being a less used weapon, as long as it is a decisive weapon.

I also think its time to work in more play action. Our track record says 3rd and 4 is not an automatic passing down for us, for instance, and that opens up a World of possibilities

TXBRONC
11-14-2011, 09:45 AM
I've said before that the spread option can be a thing we do, not the thing we do. We added a few new wrinkles to the offense between the Raiders and Chiefs game (e.g. running plays using Royal and Larsen), and I'm hoping we add a few more before the Jets, and so on. The whole thing is extremely encouraging and a lot of fun to watch.

Just because we are running a lot doesn't mean we aren't being creative. The offense has used a lot of deception and misdirection, all of which has the defenses overthinking things. The long TD pass to Decker was the ultimate payoff to all of it, and we will see more of that. I am totally good with the pass being a less used weapon, as long as it is a decisive weapon.

I also think its time to work in more play action. Our track record says 3rd and 4 is not an automatic passing down for us, for instance, and that opens up a World of possibilities


Royal getting a carry was probably more out of necessity.

claymore
11-14-2011, 09:48 AM
Two thoughts.

First, I don't think you can really compare the run first, run second, run third Tebow offense to Miami's wildcat offense. In the wildcat, there was really no pass threat and if they passed at all it was a short pass. Did Ronnie Brown or Ricky Williams ever hit a WR on a 57 yard deep route -- 35+ yards in the air? No.

Second, even if Tebow does enough to get the 2012 starting job and then fails and the Broncos have to draft another QB, it doesn't necessarily put the team back an additional 2-3 years from drafting a QB in 2012. We still have the second youngest offensive line in the NFL that's developing. A VERY young receiving corp. Young players on defense. Etc. All of those pieces will develop and hopefully form a long-term nucleus, whether Tebow is QB one more year or not.


Oh, the other point I forgot to make, when comparing to Miami, when the Broncos came back in the Miami game, there is no way that type of a comeback happens with a wildcat running back. So, you have to switch back and forth between a standard QB and Wildcat RB. That is nothing close to what the Broncos are doing.

I'm still not sold on Tebow. I'm not willing to write him off as some of you guys are doing, because we haven't seen enough to know if he should be written off. On the other hand, I'm not willing to claim he will be a good, long term starter in the NFL, because we haven't seen enough to know if he's capable of that.

Not comparing offense, just comparing the situation of masking an inefficiency with a gimicky offense.

If this is a valid new offense that takes the league by storm, and redefines the game, then Im wrong. If not, its just faking the funk until we play another team like Detroit.

If Tebow doesnt evolve to a valid NFL QB, and we continue to limp into wins against mediocre-bad teams, then Tebow will get another couple years.

That sets us back 2-3 more years.

Dreadnought
11-14-2011, 10:15 AM
Royal getting a carry was probably more out of necessity.

Or an interesting return to a very old concept. Bobby Mitchell, Lenny Moore, Frank Gifford were all hybrid Flanker/HB's in the late 50's early 60's. Lenny Moore put up insane numbers. In 1958, a 12 game season, Moore ran for 598 yards at 7.3 YPA and caught 50 passes for 18.8 YPC.

Those guys could either line up as a RB (always in tandem with a running FB) or split out as a WR. I would be ecstatic to see us do more of this kind if stuff, esp. because you don't let your personnel packages tip your hand prior to lining up. Same reason I love fast hybrid WR/TE's

TXBRONC
11-14-2011, 10:37 AM
Not comparing offense, just comparing the situation of masking an inefficiency with a gimicky offense.

If this is a valid new offense that takes the league by storm, and redefines the game, then Im wrong. If not, its just faking the funk until we play another team like Detroit.

If Tebow doesnt evolve to a valid NFL QB, and we continue to limp into wins against mediocre-bad teams, then Tebow will get another couple years.

That sets us back 2-3 more years.

What do you mean by limping into wins? If you're meaning winning in then manner that we did in Miami then I agree but last two weeks haven't been anything like that. You know we haven't trailed an opponent for last 5 quarters. That could change this week but nevertheless.

Would the Detroit game turned out differently if Denver had run offense the same way it's being ran now? I know it's pure speculation but I think it's very possible because Detroit's run defense hasn't been all that great this year.

TXBRONC
11-14-2011, 10:44 AM
Or an interesting return to a very old concept. Bobby Mitchell, Lenny Moore, Frank Gifford were all hybrid Flanker/HB's in the late 50's early 60's. Lenny Moore put up insane numbers. In 1958, a 12 game season, Moore ran for 598 yards at 7.3 YPA and caught 50 passes for 18.8 YPC.

Those guys could either line up as a RB (always in tandem with a running FB) or split out as a WR. I would be ecstatic to see us do more of this kind if stuff, esp. because you don't let your personnel packages tip your hand prior to lining up. Same reason I love fast hybrid WR/TE's

Lenny Moore, Bobby Mitchell, Frank Gifford? :confused: :D

While those Hall of Famers are before my time I do know who they are? That said I don't think Royal gets a carry if McGahee and Moreno do not go down with injury.

Dreadnought
11-14-2011, 10:57 AM
Lenny Moore, Bobby Mitchell, Frank Gifford? :confused: :D

While those Hall of Famers are before my time I do know who they are? That said I don't think Royal gets a carry if McGahee and Moreno do not go down with injury.

Oh, I know - hyperbole. Those guys are before my time too, but I am an NFL History geek and can't make myself stop. Darren Sproles or Reggie Bush are also somewhat similar, though not used as deep threats all that often. Point is that they served as very small scat backs complementing heavier pounding Fullbacks and at the same time able to be a WR. I think its a useful model to revisit, even if we stumble on it by necessity. Royal is dangerous with the ball in his hands in a broken field, but both Orton and Tebow have not done so regularly. Anything to get him involved is good by me

claymore
11-14-2011, 11:03 AM
What do you mean by limping into wins? If you're meaning winning in then manner that we did in Miami then I agree but last two weeks haven't been anything like that. You know we haven't trailed an opponent for last 5 quarters. That could change this week but nevertheless.

Would the Detroit game turned out differently if Denver had run offense the same way it's being ran now? I know it's pure speculation but I think it's very possible because Detroit's run defense hasn't been all that great this year.

Id say the Miami game, and yesterdays game was limping. I think the Raider game was an aberration.

Hopefully Tebow/McCoy turn out well for us. Consistant wins will sell me on the Tebow 2 completion offense. Until then, its smoke and mirrors masking the fact that Tebow is a bad QB.

The Sandiego game @ SanDiego will tell me alot about this team.

Mike
11-14-2011, 11:10 AM
Tebow has to get better as a passer. But he won't get better getting 9 disjointed passing calls a game...and a lot of low percentage passes at that. If you want him to develop you need to help him develop. I don't see McCoy doing that. I think McCoy's failure will sink Tebow's shot here.

Maybe it was the gameplan to have such a warped run/pass ratio and Denver won so who am I to criticize it. I thought we would lose, because it looked like the gameplan was to play not to lose vs play to win. I will admit that I was wrong. But my opinion about McCoy hasn't changed.

All that said, it is too soon to tell what the deal with Tebow is. I just worry that the gameplans continue to be the same and we will be where we are today at the end of the season. Winning a bit more, but still not really sure what we have in Tebow.

Tned
11-14-2011, 11:13 AM
Id say the Miami game, and yesterdays game was limping. I think the Raider game was an aberration.

Hopefully Tebow/McCoy turn out well for us. Consistant wins will sell me on the Tebow 2 completion offense. Until then, its smoke and mirrors masking the fact that Tebow is a bad QB.

The Sandiego game @ SanDiego will tell me alot about this team.

The Broncos will need to start passing more at some point, including some reasonable pass attempts (throwing 30+ yards downfield is a low percentage attempt), but they have shown dramatic improvement in running the ball and stopping the run/rushing the passer. The Broncos have raised their average from around 86 YPG before the San Diego game to 158 YPG now, and that's something like 225 YPG over the last five games (going by memory, don't have time to lookup exact stats), which has jumped them to third in the league.

claymore
11-14-2011, 11:17 AM
The Broncos will need to start passing more at some point, including some reasonable pass attempts (throwing 30+ yards downfield is a low percentage attempt), but they have shown dramatic improvement in running the ball and stopping the run/rushing the passer. The Broncos have raised their average from around 86 YPG before the San Diego game to 158 YPG now, and that's something like 225 YPG over the last five games (going by memory, don't have time to lookup exact stats), which has jumped them to third in the league.

My fantasy is running something similar to Shanahans offense that he had plummer in. I think we could kill it if we did that.

slim
11-14-2011, 11:19 AM
Not "limping to a win" at all…more like bludgeoning them to death with a bat, IMO.

I think they need to find a happy medium. I would like to see 15-20 passing attempts each week and continue to pound away with the run.

Dreadnought
11-14-2011, 11:27 AM
My fantasy is running something similar to Shanahans offense that he had plummer in. I think we could kill it if we did that.

I think that makes sense. Tebow will have to be able to throw effectively 20 times a game or so, and if he can do that this offense becomes a nightmare. Everyone else's defense is built to stop an offense that throws 45 times a game and thinks 3rd and 3 is a passing down. The way to deal with 265 lb speed rushing DE is to bulldoze them with a 305 lb tackle

BigDaddyBronco
11-14-2011, 11:30 AM
I still think they need to draft a QB next year that has a similar skill set to Tebow. Then Tebow can continue to develop in the off season and the new kid can develop in an offense that can work with his skill set. At that point, play the better of the two and if the new kid is a better passer then you can start opening up the offense, but you can always dial it down if you need to play Tebow due to injury or whatever.

I think they will have to try this approach since we are not going to get one of the top 3 QB's.

TXBRONC
11-14-2011, 11:41 AM
Id say the Miami game, and yesterdays game was limping. I think the Raider game was an aberration.

Hopefully Tebow/McCoy turn out well for us. Consistant wins will sell me on the Tebow 2 completion offense. Until then, its smoke and mirrors masking the fact that Tebow is a bad QB.

The Sandiego game @ SanDiego will tell me alot about this team.

We out played them Clay we never trailed. There is no smoke and mirrors to running the ball and having success do it imo. I don't see this working long term but as long as we're ride it until it stops. I disagree that the Raiders game was aberration when we tramped the Chiefs in the same manner that we did to the Raiders.

There have been a lot complaints about how McCoy and Fox have called the games and they've been hammered for not putting players in a position to be successful but I don't think can be said over the last couple of weeks or so.

TXBRONC
11-14-2011, 11:43 AM
The Broncos will need to start passing more at some point, including some reasonable pass attempts (throwing 30+ yards downfield is a low percentage attempt), but they have shown dramatic improvement in running the ball and stopping the run/rushing the passer. The Broncos have raised their average from around 86 YPG before the San Diego game to 158 YPG now, and that's something like 225 YPG over the last five games (going by memory, don't have time to lookup exact stats), which has jumped them to third in the league.

I wonder if a healthier Dumervil as anything to do with improvement on defense?

BigDaddyBronco
11-14-2011, 12:40 PM
I wonder if a healthier Dumervil as anything to do with improvement on defense?

It frees up Von a little bit. I have really been impressed by the play of the DT's. McBean!!! Are you kidding me, the guy is playing his ass off.

claymore
11-14-2011, 12:42 PM
We out played them Clay we never trailed. There is no smoke and mirrors to running the ball and having success do it imo. I don't see this working long term but as long as we're ride it until it stops. I disagree that the Raiders game was aberration when we tramped the Chiefs in the same manner that we did to the Raiders.

There have been a lot complaints about how McCoy and Fox have called the games and they've been hammered for not putting players in a position to be successful but I don't think can be said over the last couple of weeks or so.

As long as they win all my criticisims are moot. Im overly critical because I want a superior product.