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View Full Version : QB Hits: Where is the danger?



ShooterJM
11-09-2011, 01:05 PM
Ok, it's my first thread so try not to skewer me, but I'm curious if anyone knows where the statistical "danger" area is with regard to hits on the QB. And by "area" I mean location on the field, not body part.

Specifically, I was wondering if anyone is aware of any study that compares hits in the pocket vs hits scrambling vs hits on designed runs. Obviously the sample sizes will be vastly different, but I'm curious as to what the true injury rate is and if they are significantly different.

Thoughts?

Edit: I just realized since this isn't Bronco's specific it's probably in the wrong section. My apologies.

dogfish
11-09-2011, 01:06 PM
with tebow, the danger is that he might kill some poor sap DB. . .

those guys have families too, ya know. . .

BroncoNut
11-09-2011, 01:09 PM
2 post in and this is by far the worst thread I have ever entered.

just kidding Shooter


i think it depends on the quarterback. I don't think most can take the amount of punishment Cutler and Tebow have been for that long. If it doesn't hurt you physically, eventually gets into your mind. Tebow is human and everyone's got their breaking point. I learned that in Prison.

Tned
11-09-2011, 01:32 PM
It would be interesting if these stats have been compiled by someone. I have never seen anything along these lines.

My thoughts from years of watching football.

Serious QB injuries happen in the pocket. They seem to come in three major varieties. Knee/Lower leg injury. Shoulder injury. Head injury (concussion). Now, you also get the odd sprained or broken finger, but by and large, it seems like head, shoulder and knee/leg are the biggies in the pocket.

How often do you see a QB get one of those three injuries out of the pocket, or more specifically, when he's running the ball, so let's say after he crosses the LOS and becomes a runner.

Now, when it comes to running QBs, it seems that more times than not it's a rib type injury, anywhere from knocking the wind out of him, bruised rips up to cracked ribs. You can get the odd concussion when going head first, but it seems to me that it's more the type injury that Tebow got last preseason running for an injury.

Personally, when it comes to Tiny Tim, I do not like all of the runs between the tackles they are calling or he's choosing, because it greatly increases the chance for multiple people to tee off on him.

If you remove most of the between the tackle runs, then I think that the hits in the pocket are far more dangerous to the QB than hits he might take on runs outside the pocket where he can choose to go headfirst or slide, depending on need.

vandammage13
11-09-2011, 01:34 PM
My feeling is that it is more perception than reality...

It would be an interesting study, as I have never seen any numbers on it.

I know Tarkenton, Cunningham and Vick ran around a lot, and they all have had long careers. Vick has missed some games (other than the prison sentence), but I'm not so sure its been much more than average.

underrated29
11-09-2011, 01:35 PM
I would say more qbs get hurt scrambling but not because they take ferocious hits. For example here are two that come to mind for me.


1. Last year Aaron rodgers ran for like 20 yards down the field and slid after he got the first down. When/as he was sliding a tackler fell on him (legal play because it was so close to initial slide) and Aarons head got banged into the dirt for a concussion.

2. Vince Young- two years ago, maybe 3 was running down the sideline and he tweaked his ankle when running out of bounds.


Both of these were where the QB was "giving up" on the play. Tebow is different. He does not take the brunt of the hit. He is delivering it. So in regards to tebow I think he is safer outside the pocket then in. He is big and strong and has some speed. Its always easier to hit a standing object than a moving one, especially if the moving one is dishing out the hit.




Tebow is the complete opposite all around. Safer outside the pocket than it. Delivers the hit instead of taking it. Throws a better deep ball than short. Runs from the QB position better than throws. Wins games better than Loses.

Buff
11-09-2011, 01:38 PM
I think the issue with running QBs is total number of hits, not so much the type of hits they expose themselves to. When they are scrambling out of the pocket, they are expecting to get hit typically, whereas in the pocket they might be unprepared.

So they are probably at more risk in the pocket. I think that's the point you are trying to make.

But just because the risk is higher, hypothetically, in the pocket doesn't mean the risk outside the pocket isn't meaningful.

ShooterJM
11-09-2011, 01:50 PM
I'm not trying to make a point really, I'm just curious. My personal perception is that the hits in the pocket seem to be worse, but that could simply because I've seen so many more of them that I've naturally seen more bad ones.

All in all I'd really like to see the data. Especially if it were detailed enough to note if the QB slid feet first or ran out of bounds.

TXBRONC
11-09-2011, 02:13 PM
I think the issue with running QBs is total number of hits, not so much the type of hits they expose themselves to. When they are scrambling out of the pocket, they are expecting to get hit typically, whereas in the pocket they might be unprepared.

So they are probably at more risk in the pocket. I think that's the point you are trying to make.

But just because the risk is higher, hypothetically, in the pocket doesn't mean the risk outside the pocket isn't meaningful.

That's it. It's not necessarily that he will get injuried. That can happen on any given play. But there is an accumulative effect that will eventually take it's total and will eventually effect his play.

If he's going to be our franchise quarterback I want to last 10 to 15 years. I really don't want see his career possibly truncated because he was beat hell.

Cugel
11-09-2011, 02:52 PM
Ok, it's my first thread so try not to skewer me, but I'm curious if anyone knows where the statistical "danger" area is with regard to hits on the QB. And by "area" I mean location on the field, not body part.

Specifically, I was wondering if anyone is aware of any study that compares hits in the pocket vs hits scrambling vs hits on designed runs. Obviously the sample sizes will be vastly different, but I'm curious as to what the true injury rate is and if they are significantly different.

Thoughts?

Edit: I just realized since this isn't Bronco's specific it's probably in the wrong section. My apologies.

Last Sunday Aaron Rogers took about 5 hits. Ben Roethlisberer the same. Drew Brees got hit several times too. Tebow? 15-20.

Basically if you play like a RB you will last like a RB -- 3 to 5 years typically. Remember two guys who rushed for 2000 yards? Terrell Davis and Jamal Lewis? Both gone because of the pounding they took.

People mistakenly think that Matt Lepsis's taking out Davis's knee ended his career. Wrong. He developed a bone-on-bone condition in both knees where the cartilage broke down. It would have ended his career even if he never was hit by Lepsis.

Tebow has 81 rushes in 6 games started about 10 times per game. And that doesn't include sacks, hits while attempting to throw, fumbles or other designed pass-plays where he ends up throwing the ball and taking a hit.

It's just impossible that he can last at this rate. Jay Cutler kept getting hit, but he was standing in the pocket trying to pass the ball, not running in space where the defender can put hit him with the helmet (as long as it's not spearing or leading with the helmet).

When the QB runs it's perfectly legal to blow him up completely. Put your shoulder into him. Hit him with the helmet, throw him into the turf. Belly-flop on top of his shoulder like Tony Siragusa did to Rich Gannon.

You want your QB to only run when he needs to pick up a first down and nobody's open. Or occasionally on a designed rollout to limit the amount of pressure he's facing from blitzers. NOT as a regular thing.

Cugel
11-09-2011, 03:01 PM
Both of these were where the QB was "giving up" on the play. Tebow is different. He does not take the brunt of the hit. He is delivering it. So in regards to tebow I think he is safer outside the pocket then in. He is big and strong and has some speed. Its always easier to hit a standing object than a moving one, especially if the moving one is dishing out the hit.

I'm sorry but this is just completely idiotic! Really? That's your argument? That Tebow is "delivering hits" not "taking them?" :rolleyes:

Tebow is wearing those tiny little QB pads. LBs are wearing the big-boy pads. He's getting the short end of those collisions as a rule.

There is a rule in the NFL. Troy Polomalu and Ray Lewis are faster than you and hit harder than you. If you want your career to last stay away from them as much as possible. Attempting to "out-tough" a LB or S who's coming screaming in on a play is suicidal for a QB.

Here's the photos. YOU be the judge which guy you would rather be in a collision:

http://beat.bodog.eu/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/tim-tebow.jpg http://1inthestands.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/ray-lewis.jpg
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/287/213/84581930_display_image.jpg?1278438584
http://www.campussqueeze.com/userfiles/image/NFL/TroyPolamalu-Steelers.jpg

BigDaddyBronco
11-09-2011, 03:20 PM
I think having bad blind side protection (or a bad OLine in general) is a lot more dangerous to a QB than scrambling. Jay Cutler has taken some pretty nasty hits this year compared to Tebow, not really any of them have been down the field running from what I recall.

ShooterJM
11-09-2011, 03:26 PM
Last Sunday Aaron Rogers took about 5 hits. Ben Roethlisberer the same. Drew Brees got hit several times too. Tebow? 15-20.



Good point, once the data was collected you could use it make some sort of "hit index" to calculate the expected wear on your QB and what your QB should do.

For instance, if an inside the pocket hit had a injury/wear index of .1 per hit and an outside the pocket hit had an injury index of .2 per hit then you have a clear direction. If your QB can't avoid 50% of hits by rolling out and sliding than stay in the pocket. However, if your O-line is expected to allow hits repeatedly, roll out and slide.

Might be useless, might be useful. Either way I find it interesting.



People mistakenly think that Matt Lepsis's taking out Davis's knee ended his career. Wrong. He developed a bone-on-bone condition in both knees where the cartilage broke down. It would have ended his career even if he never was hit by Lepsis.

Good information, but I'm not sure that's relevent. Unless you're making the argument that the condition was caused by the hits he took (vs the cuts he took running the ball).

catfish
11-09-2011, 03:27 PM
I can only post from what I saw in college when he was running the spread -option at UF.(not super relevant to nfl, but the defenses are still stout) while running, from what I remember, Tebow seperated his non-throwing shoulder(did not miss time) and bruised some ribs(did not miss time). In the pocket he got knocked out in a freak accident. I think he is going to have trouble staying upright if he tries to take people on head on like he used to. Not to say if he sees green he shouldn't bolt, but for god's sake slide

catfish
11-09-2011, 03:33 PM
I think having bad blind side protection (or a bad OLine in general) is a lot more dangerous to a QB than scrambling. Jay Cutler has taken some pretty nasty hits this year compared to Tebow, not really any of them have been down the field running from what I recall.

with no real data to back this all up, my gut tells me a pocket qb with a poor line is more likely to get a head/neck injury(whiplash). A running qb is more likely to get a shoulder/leg injury. I would think both are equally likely to get a rib injury.(LB speed causing damage to runner, DT fatness causing damage to pocket)

BroncoNut
11-09-2011, 03:36 PM
I can only post from what I saw in college when he was running the spread -option at UF.(not super relevant to nfl, but the defenses are still stout) while running, from what I remember, Tebow seperated his non-throwing shoulder(did not miss time) and bruised some ribs(did not miss time). In the pocket he got knocked out in a freak accident. I think he is going to have trouble staying upright if he tries to take people on head on like he used to. Not to say if he sees green he shouldn't bolt, but for god's sake slide

when you were in college or when he was in college or both?

catfish
11-09-2011, 03:42 PM
when you were in college or when he was in college or both?

both, my wife was in grad school at uf in 07/08. I graduated in 06

gregbroncs
11-09-2011, 04:24 PM
Because RB's are some of the shortest lived in the league does it not stand to reason that a QB acting as a RB is likely to have a lot shorter career than one who is acting as a QB?

I would love to see research on this. However since there are not a lot of teams encouraging their QB's to be runners it would be very difficult to get accurate info.

BroncoNut
11-09-2011, 04:26 PM
both, my wife was in grad school at uf in 07/08. I graduated in 06

what graduate program was your wife in at UF?

catfish
11-09-2011, 07:21 PM
what graduate program was your wife in at UF?

physicians assistant (school of medicine)

Tned
11-09-2011, 10:13 PM
This is what Tebow says on the subject:


"Those plays weren’t necessarily ones [where] you take big hits. I think that’s a little bit of a myth too. You don’t necessarily get hit as much on read plays as people would think. I’d say your hits are more just sitting in the pocket.”

BroncoTech
11-09-2011, 10:53 PM
I think the pocket is the most dangerous. The owners were sick of seeing their multi-million dollar babies getting crunched so they made all the pocket rules. No hitting in the head, no hitting low, where the hell are you supposed to hit?

BroncoNut
11-10-2011, 02:48 PM
I suppose I'd take the head shot if available, if not, the thoracic cavity (heart, lungs), after that, a gut shot and hope for a bleed out.

underrated29
11-10-2011, 03:03 PM
Because RB's are some of the shortest lived in the league does it not stand to reason that a QB acting as a RB is likely to have a lot shorter career than one who is acting as a QB?

I would love to see research on this. However since there are not a lot of teams encouraging their QB's to be runners it would be very difficult to get accurate info.




But there is a difference though imo. The Rb gets anywhere from 15-20 carries a game and some are hard hits. he is running full speed through a hole (unless he plays on our team then there is no hole) and the MLB or whoever is doing the opposite on the other side.

Tebow is not doing those kinds of runs. and he is not battering ram himself like peyton hillis does, through 10 people.


Tebow runs to the smaller guys mostly, the dbs, and everyone once in a while does take on a LB in open space, yet he is shifty enough they hardly ever get a good shot on him. Thus, I think the comparison is somehwere in the middle. Not as much as a RB but more than the average QB.


Still he is built like a LB- I mean, they list him at 6'3 235- which is bigger than most WLBs, but I think tebow is bigger than 235. I mean they say von miller weighs at 240 but tebow sure looks to be the bigger stronger dude.

BroncoNut
11-10-2011, 03:19 PM
physicians assistant (school of medicine)

has she been in any pornos?

Actually, in all seriousness, that is pretty cool. I've encountered a few PAs (like when I had bad outbreak of Poison Ivy) and have been real impressed with them. that's cool. How long is that program?

catfish
11-10-2011, 03:50 PM
has she been in any pornos?

Actually, in all seriousness, that is pretty cool. I've encountered a few PAs (like when I had bad outbreak of Poison Ivy) and have been real impressed with them. that's cool. How long is that program?

2 yrs after Bachelors degree

SM19
11-10-2011, 05:57 PM
A moving quarterback is often going to introduce more force into a collision than a quarterback standing still in the pocket would. (I say "often" because it's not necessarily the case when the quarterback is moving away from the tackler, rather than toward him.) It doesn't really matter whether he's "taking" or "delivering" the blow, the net force is the same. There are some factors going the other way -- for example, it's easier to hit a non-moving target squarely -- but I'd guess that overall, quarterbacks who run a lot are going to subject themselves not just to more hits, but to more severe ones.

vandammage13
11-11-2011, 08:52 AM
This is what Tebow had to say on the subject...


"Those plays weren't necessarily ones (where) you take big hits," Tebow said. "I think that's a little bit of a myth, too. You don't necessarily get hit as much on read plays as people would think. I'd say your hits are more just sitting in the pocket."

I would say TT would know a little more than the rest of us which hits hurt worse...Just sayin'

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d823fa689/article/tebow-brushes-off-injury-concerns-over-readoption-offense?module=HP11_headline_stack