Some of You Still Don't Get It...

[vandammage13]

I have noticed that many people are still not convinced that Tebow is a viable option at QB or even improving for that matter.

People are still harping on the Completion %, errant throws, pocket presence, etc...

Newsflash...TEBOW IS NOT LIKE OTHER QB'S, therefore he cannot be measured in the same way we measure other QB's.

I don't know if some of you have noticed or just fail to acknowledge it, but Tebow is 3-3 in 6 starts on a really bad team. The same team that is 4-14 since Tebow has been drafted when he doesn't start.

Why is it that a team can go 4-14 with a QB putting up better, more consistent passing numbers, statistically speaking, and yet still manage to go 3-3 with a QB putting up inferior passing numbers?

Tebow's ability to pick up yards with his feet balance out the low completion %, as most teams use the short pass as a form of the running game (which in turn produces these high completion % that the NFL hasn't seen until recent years). It is the fact that Tebow plays the way that he does that gives this bad team a chance to win.

Obviously, we would all like to see that completion % improve, and in time, it certainly will as Tebow gains experience in reading defenses and developing his pocket awareness.

The occasional errant pass might be something we will always have to live with, but getting more comfortable in the pocket and getting more familiar with NFL defenses will only help the low completion % and this will eventually come with more gametime experience.

More important than the completion %, is the fact that Tebow protects the ball. Just 4 interceptions and 1 lost fumble in 179 attempts is excellent for a 12 year vet, let alone a guy with 6 starts under his belt. Anytime you protect the ball, you are going to have a chance to win. So you can have your 65% completions, and I'll take the low turnover rate.

I'm not even going to dive into his clutch ability to bring a team back, as anyone who says he doesn't have the clutch gene is going to lose that argument before they even start it.

The only way you can measure Tebow's success is TD/INT ratio, Points scored, and most importantly W's.

This team has many holes, yet is 3-3 when TT starts...So continue to harp on the convetional QB attributes that have brainwashed you over the years. Tebow will just continue going about things the way he does, proving all the critics wrong along the way.

If you are looking for that cookie cutter QB, Tebow will never be that guy....But if you want a guy who's gonna win games for you and give your team 100% of what he has every Sunday, then Tebow might be your guy.

[chazoe60]

I have said for some time now that I think if a coaching staff and organization went all in with Tebow they would win a lot of games. I've always thought he could be a good franchise QB in the right situation. He won't ever look like a normal QB and his passing stats will never be beautiful but he's going to win a lot of games.

The other thing I've always maintained is that Tebow won't have a career as long as most franchise QBs for a couple of reasons:
1. He obviously takes more of a beating than most QBs because of his style. Yes, he's built like a brick shithouse and tough as nails but he will wear down over time. I don't think you can take his aggression away from him, it's part of his DNA. He slides more and gets out of bounds more but he's always gonna get in the middle of some hits, it's his nature.

2. I also believe that his charitable work is vastly more important to him and at some point the beating and public spotlight of the NFL will interfere with that more than he likes. He is a smart guy and he will want to end this part of his career on his terms while still healthy enough to do missionary work. I could see Tebow as the kind of guy who if he won a SB (not saying that's a guarantee or anything just speaking hypothetical) even if it was in only his 6th season or something he would retire and move on to other things.

[catfish]

I have noticed that many people are still not convinced that Tebow is a viable option at QB or even improving for that matter.

People are still harping on the Completion %, errant throws, pocket presence, etc...

Newsflash...TEBOW IS NOT LIKE OTHER QB'S, therefore he cannot be measured in the same way we measure other QB's.

I don't know if some of you have noticed or just fail to acknowledge it, but Tebow is 3-3 in 6 starts on a really bad team. The same team that is 4-14 since Tebow has been drafted when he doesn't start.

Why is it that a team can go 4-14 with a QB putting up better, more consistent passing numbers, statistically speaking, and yet still manage to go 3-3 with a QB putting up inferior passing numbers?

Tebow's ability to pick up yards with his feet balance out the low completion %, as most teams use the short pass as a form of the running game (which in turn produces these high completion % that the NFL hasn't seen until recent years). It is the fact that Tebow plays the way that he does that gives this bad team a chance to win.

Obviously, we would all like to see that completion % improve, and in time, it certainly will as Tebow gains experience in reading defenses and developing his pocket awareness.

The occasional errant pass might be something we will always have to live with, but getting more comfortable in the pocket and getting more familiar with NFL defenses will only help the low completion % and this will eventually come with more gametime experience.

More important than the completion %, is the fact that Tebow protects the ball. Just 4 interceptions and 1 lost fumble in 179 attempts is excellent for a 12 year vet, let alone a guy with 6 starts under his belt. Anytime you protect the ball, you are going to have a chance to win. So you can have your 65% completions, and I'll take the low turnover rate.

I'm not even going to dive into his clutch ability to bring a team back, as anyone who says he doesn't have the clutch gene is going to lose that argument before they even start it.

The only way you can measure Tebow's success is TD/INT ratio, Points scored, and most importantly W's.

This team has many holes, yet is 3-3 when TT starts...So continue to harp on the convetional QB attributes that have brainwashed you over the years. Tebow will just continue going about things the way he does, proving all the critics wrong along the way.

If you are looking for that cookie cutter QB, Tebow will never be that guy....But if you want a guy who's gonna win games for you and give your team 100% of what he has every Sunday, then Tebow might be your guy.

I don't know about Tebow developing into a franchise qb. I do think that his skill set translates well to this team, this year as his ability to run opens up the game for what could be argued is the only real signifigant threat on offense. McGahee. as to building a team to operate around him in the future I think someone will, I just don think it will be here(my bet is the Jags)

[BroncoJoe]

You simply don't get the kind of bone-rattling hits running the ball like you can in the pocket. It is rare you're blind-sided while running as opposed to in the pocket.

[Superchop 7]

This is NOT a David Carr situation.

Not even close.

[vettesplus]

this will all change when a 240lb linebacker hits him full steem in the chest on one of his runs and puts him on the sideline for the season, then what are you going to do??? orton, quinn??

[Dreadnought]

I have said for some time now that I think if a coaching staff and organization went all in with Tebow they would win a lot of games. I've always thought he could be a good franchise QB in the right situation. He won't ever look like a normal QB and his passing stats will never be beautiful but he's going to win a lot of games.

The other thing I've always maintained is that Tebow won't have a career as long as most franchise QBs for a couple of reasons:
1. He obviously takes more of a beating than most QBs because of his style. Yes, he's built like a brick shithouse and tough as nails but he will wear down over time. I don't think you can take his aggression away from him, it's part of his DNA. He slides more and gets out of bounds more but he's always gonna get in the middle of some hits, it's his nature.

2. I also believe that his charitable work is vastly more important to him and at some point the beating and public spotlight of the NFL will interfere with that more than he likes. He is a smart guy and he will want to end this part of his career on his terms while still healthy enough to do missionary work. I could see Tebow as the kind of guy who if he won a SB (not saying that's a guarantee or anything just speaking hypothetical) even if it was in only his 6th season or something he would retire and move on to other things.

Tebow's aggressive nature shows up in his passing game I think. He would rather risk taking a sack to buy some more time and see if an opportunity for a decisive play develops downfield than check down. He wants to survey the entire field so as not to miss the chance for the big play - unlike the timid target locked Orton. Those are not always a good thing; I love that he's doing this, but - Faster, Please! It needs to be more instinctive for him.

[BroncoJoe]

this will all change when a 240lb linebacker hits him full steem in the chest on one of his runs and puts him on the sideline for the season, then what are you going to do??? orton, quinn??

Like that can only happen while he's running. :tsk:

[turftoad]

this will all change when a 240lb linebacker hits him full steem in the chest on one of his runs and puts him on the sideline for the season, then what are you going to do??? orton, quinn??

Exactly. If he goes down, who runs that offense? Or..... do we change it back right after he gets hurt. Not hoping he does by any means but it's still an if.
Neither Orton or Quinn could run it. Thats putting all your eggs in one basket.

[vandammage13]

this will all change when a 240lb linebacker hits him full steem in the chest on one of his runs and puts him on the sideline for the season, then what are you going to do??? orton, quinn??

This could be just as likely to happen in the pocket. At least when running, TT has the ability to see it coming and set himself up to take the hit.

Just the physics of being hit while standing still (in the pocket) VS. while running show the former being more dangerous.

BTW...TT is the same size as these 240lb LB's you speak of, so that does make a difference, whether you believe it or not. It's not like he's a 205lb Michael Vick taking those shots, TT's in a class all his own when it comes to that.

[Dzone]

Tebow is in far worse danger from O Franklin sucking in pass protection than he is running around the end.

[vandammage13]

Exactly. If he goes down, who runs that offense? Or..... do we change it back right after he gets hurt. Not hoping he does by any means but it's still an if.
Neither Orton or Quinn could run it. Thats putting all your eggs in one basket.

I addressed this question a few days ago.

Any team is going to be in trouble when their starting QB goes down (especially for the year).

This is not unique to just Tebow.

The solution is to bring in a Colin Kapernick, or Dan LeFevour type QB to be the backup. If TT goes down for a couple of weeks a QB like LeFevour could run the same type of offense until TT came back.

Obviously, finding a QB of TT's size that can take the pounding he does would be difficult, but those Capernick/LeFevour sized guys could take those shots for a few weeks before their bodies wore down...Just long enough for TT to return.

If TT were out for the year then you would definitely have problems, but that can be said for most instances of the QB going down for the year...Chances are, your not going to compete for the SB with your backup whether he's a pocket passer or a runner regardless.

[vandammage13]

Tebow is in far worse danger from O Franklin sucking in pass protection than he is running around the end.

Or Clady getting holding calls putting him in dangerous 3rd and long situations.

[Ziggy]

A QB has to hit open receivers consistently. Tebow isn't doing that. Will he learn to? It's possible. I understand that a QB usually doesn't take as bad of hits running the ball as he does in standing in the pocket, he's still taking twice as many hits. In order for the Broncos to rely on Tebow's style of play to win them a super bowl eventually, they'd have to bring in 2 more QB's with the same skill set, or change thier offense completely when Tebow goes out. That won't work long term in the NFL, and there aren't 2 more QB's out there like Tebow.

When was the last time a QB won the super bowl that couldn't pass consistently from the pocket? That's not my question, but one that Elway asked in a radio interview after Tebow's first start. Bringing in a pocket passer has advantages for many reasons. There's a whole lot more of them to choose from, the injury risk is a lot lower, and NFL rules are made to accomodate pocket passers.

I think Elway brings in a QB in the draft regardless of what Tebow does, and the long term plan of the Denver Broncos will built around a conventional pocket passer. If not one of the big guns in the first round like Luck, Barkley, or Jones, then a guy like Tannehill in the 2nd.

[Dreadnought]

This could be just as likely to happen in the pocket. At least when running, TT has the ability to see it coming and set himself up to take the hit.

Just the physics of being hit while standing still (in the pocket) VS. while running show the former being more dangerous.

BTW...TT is the same size as these 240lb LB's you speak of, so that does make a difference, whether you believe it or not. It's not like he's a 205lb Michael Vick taking those shots, TT's in a class all his own when it comes to that.

While I'm inclined to agree, Turftoad brings up the one serious concern I would have. TT is a unique talent. We could not plug some other random jamoke into a system built only to take advantage of his unique abilities. Whatever our offensive system becomes needs to be operable by other guys - which is not to say we need to ape the same conventional pass happy attacks used by 31 other teams like a bunch of damned lemmings. The run option can be a thing we do, but not the thing we do. We also need a foundation based in a more conventional running game along with good play action to work with it, as well as enough conventional passing attack if only to force defenses to play honest.

[Jsteve01]

the danger of getting hit is completely overstated. You've got guys like Ladanian Tomlinson who have played way a ton of years in the league and take hits on 40 some plays per game and they're still playing. I just don't buy the idea that it will ruin a 240 pound guy. The issue is and always will be Tim's feet. If he gets them settled down then he'll be ok.

[Jsteve01]

I addressed this question a few days ago.

Any team is going to be in trouble when their starting QB goes down (especially for the year).

This is not unique to just Tebow.

The solution is to bring in a Colin Kapernick, or Dan LeFevour type QB to be the backup. If TT goes down for a couple of weeks a QB like LeFevour could run the same type of offense until TT came back.

Obviously, finding a QB of TT's size that can take the pounding he does would be difficult, but those Capernick/LeFevour sized guys could take those shots for a few weeks before their bodies wore down...Just long enough for TT to return.

If TT were out for the year then you would definitely have problems, but that can be said for most instances of the QB going down for the year...Chances are, your not going to compete for the SB with your backup whether he's a pocket passer or a runner regardless.

I don't envision Kaepernick as a backup. Long term with his skill set he should start in this league especially after being tutored by Harbaugh

[vandammage13]

I don't envision Kaepernick as a backup. Long term with his skill set he should start in this league especially after being tutored by Harbaugh

I'm not saying get Caepernick specifically, but just a guy of his skillset...There are tons of QB's like that in college, they just never get picked up in the NFL because that style of offense is not used.

I'm sure a later round guy could be found that could serve as a backup in this offense....There's actually more of them to choose from in college than pocket passers IMO.

[BroncoStud]

I like the fact that Tebow respects the football and doesn't turn it over despite incredible blitz-ratios. I don't know about the rest, but that is a big bonus in my eyes to his credibility as a starter.

I think the accuracy will improve as he gets reps and offseasons to work on his footwork and timing, the arm strength is good, not great, but good, the mobility is very good, and the leadership is there.

I think if Denver is willing to stick it out we will have a very good QB in the end, unconventional but certainly a tough matchup for defenses. Consistency can only be developed over time, I have seen enough from Tebow that I would be perfectly fine and actually hope that Denver works on the offensive and defensive lines in the 2012 draft.

I believe he has certainly shown enough to start for the remainder of this season. I wasn't a fan when we drafted him, I was disappointed in the move, but he is winning me over. I just see him in the game and how Denver responds as a team, there is something to it... Denver is NOT good, but with Tebow back there and the gameplan open, it seems Denver just competes.

[Ziggy]

the danger of getting hit is completely overstated. You've got guys like Ladanian Tomlinson who have played way a ton of years in the league and take hits on 40 some plays per game and they're still playing. I just don't buy the idea that it will ruin a 240 pound guy. The issue is and always will be Tim's feet. If he gets them settled down then he'll be ok.

LT is the exception, not the standard. The average career of an NFL running back is 2.57 years. The average career of an NFL qb is 4.44 years. Why? Because of the amount of hits they take.

[OrangeHoof]

I'm enough of a mad scientist to give crazy ideas a chance (I'd even consider bringing Vince Young to Denver and having them run a dual zone read option offense where Vince could hand off to Tebow with a run-pass option or Tebow could hand off to VY with a run-pass option. It could look like the Wildcat on steroids and give DCs fits).

So let's give Tebow a chance to make the offense work in the NFL and see where it leads us. Remember, the Run-and-Shoot had it's heyday and QBs got killed in that offense too.

If I had had my preference, I would not have drafted Tebow to start with, especially moving up in the first round to get him because his style is so unconventional but, now that he's here and getting paid first-round money, we might as well see if we can design an offense for him and why not have that offense be something that takes advantage of what he does best while forcing defenses to plan for a style of play they don't see every week?

[Slick]

His footwork is atrocious right now, agreed jsteve, and I would love to see him beat some blitzes with a quick pass.

His inconsistency is to be expected just like any young QB.

Man I hope he keeps improving. I love mobile QB's.

[Lancane]

Simply, no I don't believe that Tebow can be a franchise quarterback and I don't believe Elway or Fox for that matter believe he can either. Those who have faith in Tebow, that's great...but this is a pass happy league and it's not going to change anytime soon. As one journalist said, maybe it will change in about fifteen or twenty years, but not now. At this time the high powered passing attacks are here to stay and have proven to be the most valid route to winning not only consistently but winning championships.

And I don't measure him in comparison to other franchise quarterbacks... For those of you who're are his fans or believe he can be something special, he's not even comparable to those considered mediocre, he's one of the worst quarterbacks I have ever seen and that's a fact. Tony Banks, who I played with in college looks like a pro-bowl caliber quarterback in comparison. Tebow is like a tight end who can throw the ball now and then, it's not enough no matter what offense you put into play, no matter how much you deviate from the pro-style, some of you are starting to come to the realization that he's not the future of this franchise, some are blindly still holding on with all your strength to deny it, believing that he can make up for the deficiency of the position with his legs or never say die attitude...but it's not enough.

I'm not here to tell you what to think or believe, if you think he's the future of this team...then good for you. But don't tell me what to think or believe either, because there is nothing, no statistics nor one ounce of proof that your opinion holds any validity, it's all built on faith...where at least my argument is backed up by what we're hearing and the statistics. I'm not a Orton homer either, I think Orton is mediocre - but I believe he's better then Tebow as a quarterback.

Pat Bowlen likes franchise quarterbacks like John Elway and Jay Cutler, John Elway prefers franchise quarterbacks like himself or Jay Cutler...if your honest with yourselves, do you really see Elway settling for a quarterback like Tim Tebow? I don't, but to each their own.

[vandammage13]

LT is the exception, not the standard. The average career of an NFL running back is 2.57 years. The average career of an NFL qb is 4.44 years. Why? Because of the amount of hits they take.

It is the hits, but it is also because they are easily replaced.

You have to invest time in a QB, while with a RB you can plug him in and normally he shows whether he is good or not right away.

[Jsteve01]

LT is the exception, not the standard. The average career of an NFL running back is 2.57 years. The average career of an NFL qb is 4.44 years. Why? Because of the amount of hits they take.

that stat is completey skewed ziggy. People always act like the number one coefficient in those stats is injury. What they fail to realize is part of the reason qbs get more run is franchises are reluctant to give up on them once they start developing them. Of course the hits take their toll but we're talking about starting rbs and starting qbs. Running Tim 10 times per game wont end his career early. Also, you'd expect to see him make the transition that guys like Elway, Cunningham, Young and McNabb did as they improved their throwing.

[BroncoWave]

LT is the exception, not the standard. The average career of an NFL running back is 2.57 years. The average career of an NFL qb is 4.44 years. Why? Because of the amount of hits they take.

Those are very skewed statistics that take into account 7th round picks and UDFAs who stick onto rosters. If you look at the average careers of first round picks, numbers are much higher.

[BroncoJoe]

LT is the exception, not the standard. The average career of an NFL running back is 2.57 years. The average career of an NFL qb is 4.44 years. Why? Because of the amount of hits they take.

For every RB that amounted to anything who lasted only 2.7 years, I can name one that lasted 10+.

The 2.7 year thing is WAY overstated as it includes guys that never see the field.

[Jsteve01]

Simply, no I don't believe that Tebow can be a franchise quarterback and I don't believe Elway or Fox for that matter believe he can either. Those who have faith in Tebow, that's great...but this is a pass happy league and it's not going to change anytime soon. As one journalist said, maybe it will change in about fifteen or twenty years, but not now. At this time the high powered passing attacks are here to stay and have proven to be the most valid route to winning not only consistently but winning championships.

And I don't measure him in comparison to other franchise quarterbacks... For those of you who're are his fans or believe he can be something special, he's not even comparable to those considered mediocre, he's one of the worst quarterbacks I have ever seen and that's a fact. Tony Banks, who I played with in college looks like a pro-bowl caliber quarterback in comparison. Tebow is like a tight end who can throw the ball now and then, it's not enough no matter what offense you put into play, no matter how much you deviate from the pro-style, some of you are starting to come to the realization that he's not the future of this franchise, some are blindly still holding on with all your strength to deny it, believing that he can make up for the deficiency of the position with his legs or never say die attitude...but it's not enough.

I'm not here to tell you what to think or believe, if you think he's the future of this team...then good for you. But don't tell me what to think or believe either, because there is nothing, no statistics nor one ounce of proof that your opinion holds any validity, it's all built on faith...where at least my argument is backed up by what we're hearing and the statistics. I'm not a Orton homer either, I think Orton is mediocre - but I believe he's better then Tebow as a quarterback.

Pat Bowlen likes franchise quarterbacks like John Elway and Jay Cutler, John Elway prefers franchise quarterbacks like himself or Jay Cutler...if your honest with yourselves, do you really see Elway settling for a quarterback like Tim Tebow? I don't, but to each their own.


Hey I liked Banks....what were we talking about?

[Ziggy]

It's not only his footwork, it's also the fact that he's locking onto 1 receiver and not going through progressions. The footwork will buy him a slight bit of time, but no one really knows if he can read a defense or not in the NFL. His elongated throwing motion really cuts down his margin of error. I love having a mobile QB also Slick, but only if he can pass out of the pocket consistently as well as run. I'll be rooting for Tebow to succeed as well. Vick improved by leaps and bounds passing out of the pocket, but the Falcons were going to give him 3-4 years regardless. I don't know if Elway will do the same with Tim.

[Jsteve01]

It's not only his footwork, it's also the fact that he's locking onto 1 receiver and not going through progressions. The footwork will buy him a slight bit of time, but no one really knows if he can read a defense or not in the NFL. His elongated throwing motion really cuts down his margin of error. I love having a mobile QB also Slick, but only if he can pass out of the pocket consistently as well as run. I'll be rooting for Tebow to succeed as well. Vick improved by leaps and bounds passing out of the pocket, but the Falcons were going to give him 3-4 years regardless. I don't know if Elway will do the same with Tim.


That's completely false. ER did an interview the other day and talked about how Tebow sees the whole field and dummy routes often end up getting the ball when the first read is covered.

[Fullback32]

Newsflash...TEBOW IS NOT LIKE OTHER QB'S, therefore he cannot be measured in the same way we measure other QB's.

I will agree with that. The Broncos had to totally change their offense to accomodate Tebow's lack of traditional QB skills. So, just how long do you think running a Read-Option offense will work in the NFL?

[BroncoStud]

It's not only his footwork, it's also the fact that he's locking onto 1 receiver and not going through progressions. The footwork will buy him a slight bit of time, but no one really knows if he can read a defense or not in the NFL. His elongated throwing motion really cuts down his margin of error. I love having a mobile QB also Slick, but only if he can pass out of the pocket consistently as well as run. I'll be rooting for Tebow to succeed as well. Vick improved by leaps and bounds passing out of the pocket, but the Falcons were going to give him 3-4 years regardless. I don't know if Elway will do the same with Tim.

Tebow should be reading defenses like a seasoned Pro? He's only started 6 games now, I don't expect him to have a lot of progressions yet... Kyle Orton locked onto Brandon Lloyd for 2 years here in Denver, and he was a veteran with a lot of starting experience.

Reading coverages and progressions come with time, experience, and study.

[Ziggy]

For every RB that amounted to anything who lasted only 2.7 years, I can name one that lasted 10+.

The 2.7 year thing is WAY overstated as it includes guys that never see the field.

Can't you do the same for QB's Joe? Both stats reflect guys that never see the field. As a whole, I think stats are overrated, but these are pretty accurate. Running backs burn out of the NFL a whole lot quicker than QB's. That's why most teams in the NFL have gone to a 2 back system.

[Ziggy]

Tebow should be reading defenses like a seasoned Pro? He's only started 6 games now, I don't expect him to have a lot of progressions yet... Kyle Orton locked onto Brandon Lloyd for 2 years here in Denver, and he was a veteran with a lot of starting experience.

Reading coverages and progressions come with time, experience, and study.

No, he shouldn't, BS. But after 1 1/2 years in the NFL, he should be able to check down every now and then. How many times have you seen him do that in the last 3 games? Probably not more than 3 or 4 times. Comparing him to Orton doesn't help your case. Orton is a career NFL backup quality QB. Chicago and Denver have both learned that the hard way. I'll take Tebow starting over Orton every day of the week, and twice on Sundays. I don't expect Tebow to be able to go through 3-4 progression on every passing play at this point in his career, but I do expect him to go through 1 or 2 when his guy is covered. Right now he isn't, unless he's running around for 5 or 6 seconds and his direction of travel has turned him completely to the other side of the field.

[TXBRONC]

I addressed this question a few days ago.

Any team is going to be in trouble when their starting QB goes down (especially for the year).

This is not unique to just Tebow.

The solution is to bring in a Colin Kapernick, or Dan LeFevour type QB to be the backup. If TT goes down for a couple of weeks a QB like LeFevour could run the same type of offense until TT came back.

Obviously, finding a QB of TT's size that can take the pounding he does would be difficult, but those Capernick/LeFevour sized guys could take those shots for a few weeks before their bodies wore down...Just long enough for TT to return.

If TT were out for the year then you would definitely have problems, but that can be said for most instances of the QB going down for the year...Chances are, your not going to compete for the SB with your backup whether he's a pocket passer or a runner regardless.

I'm glad you have it all worked out because obviously a Kapernick or LeFevour type quarterback would be able to just step right in without any problem. That's naive at best. You want change standards by which quarterbacks are measured well it aint going to happen.

Btw the person you need convince is Elway and right now he doesn't buy into your pov.

[Lancane]

that stat is completey skewed ziggy. People always act like the number one coefficient in those stats is injury. What they fail to realize is part of the reason qbs get more run is franchises are reluctant to give up on them once they start developing them. Of course the hits take their toll but we're talking about starting rbs and starting qbs. Running Tim 10 times per game wont end his career early. Also, you'd expect to see him make the transition that guys like Elway, Cunningham, Young and McNabb did as they improved their throwing.

Where the hell do you guys gather your information?

Elway was one of the most proficient passers in during his collegiate years and though he was considered a mobile quarterback, he was drafted first overall because his arm, the same with Steve Young, even though he was drafted in the supplemental draft, he was mobile but still considered a quality passer. Both showed their arms' abilities once in the league. Elway's first season is skewed because the situations he was thrown into, especially in the first game of the year against Pittsburgh, eliminate that game and his numbers are vastly better. Steve Young, even though he was on a bad team that didn't know how to utilize him, he was showing his ability from the start. McNabb showed his ability from day one, he struggled his first season like Elway, but his skills were evident in his second season.

The only one off that list that could be used for your argument is Randall Cunningham, but in his second season he was showing that he had a cannon arm, one of those that today is still considered one of the strongest in NFL history, so it was evident in his second season he had improved and was capable of being a proficient passer.

[OrangeHoof]

...but this is a pass happy league and it's not going to change anytime soon.

So? I've been watching some teams get better/worse this year over their ability to run the ball. Houston is more dangerous this year because they have developed a 1-2 punch with Foster and Tate. The Raiders were effective on offense when they had McFadden chewing up yards. The Bears are surprising opponents because Matt Forte is the focus of the offense. Conversely, the Chiefs are having a bad year on offense because of the injury to Jamal Charles.

Yes, you can be a lemming and do what everyone else is doing or you can find other ways to win games by giving defenses looks they don't see very often and forcing them to adjust.

The Run-and-Shoot was the ultimate pass-happy offense and it worked for awhile until DCs figured out how to beat it. They'll figure out how to beat the Packer-style offenses and the multi-TE offenses too.

But, while they figure out how to do that, defenses will become lighter which makes them even more vulnerable to a team that can stuff the ball down their throats. A devastating running game helps you control the clock, move the chains, keep turnovers low and keep your defense off the field.

Zig when they zag. You'll win more often than just copying the herd and, as a bonus, the players you want will be easier to draft because they fit your needs more than other teams.

[Ziggy]

I'm outa here guys. This will surprise some, but as a Christian I'm a huge Tebow fan. I think that he can do anything, through Christ who strengthens him. I'd love for him to succeed in the NFL. I think he will, I just don't think it will be as a starting QB. Sometimes God's plan just isn't the same as ours. His style of play doesn't fit today's NFL, and I don't think that Elway can afford to give him the time as a starter that it would take to truly find out if he can be the long term answer at QB. Elway wants a pure pocket passer and Tebow may never be that guy. He would make a great FB though, possibly even TE. That may be where his future is.

[BroncoStud]

No, he shouldn't, BS. But after 1 1/2 years in the NFL, he should be able to check down every now and then. How many times have you seen him do that in the last 3 games? Probably not more than 3 or 4 times. Comparing him to Orton doesn't help your case. Orton is a career NFL backup quality QB. Chicago and Denver have both learned that the hard way. I'll take Tebow starting over Orton every day of the week, and twice on Sundays. I don't expect Tebow to be able to go through 3-4 progression on every passing play at this point in his career, but I do expect him to go through 1 or 2 when his guy is covered. Right now he isn't, unless he's running around for 5 or 6 seconds and his direction of travel has turned him completely to the other side of the field.

Oh I see what you're saying Zig. I think he does check down, I also think he holds the ball too long when guys are covered and doesn't check down fast enough at times. I would say he's learning and that's about all I expect from him right now -- show improvement. At least show me that you're "getting it" and able to learn from the experience.

All in all, despite the accuracy issues, I'm pretty content with Tebow right now. There were games, that despite Cutler's immense passing skills, that the Broncos were a lethargic mess, and didn't show any signs of life. And so far, for the most part, Tebow has shown a willingness to learn and grow as a QB, and we have an investment in him, I think we should at least see it through this season, at minimum.

[Lancane]

So? I've been watching some teams get better/worse this year over their ability to run the ball. Houston is more dangerous this year because they have developed a 1-2 punch with Foster and Tate. The Raiders were effective on offense when they had McFadden chewing up yards. The Bears are surprising opponents because Matt Forte is the focus of the offense. Conversely, the Chiefs are having a bad year on offense because of the injury to Jamal Charles.

Yes, you can be a lemming and do what everyone else is doing or you can find other ways to win games by giving defenses looks they don't see very often and forcing them to adjust.

The Run-and-Shoot was the ultimate pass-happy offense and it worked for awhile until DCs figured out how to beat it. They'll figure out how to beat the Packer-style offenses and the multi-TE offenses too.

But, while they figure out how to do that, defenses will become lighter which makes them even more vulnerable to a team that can stuff the ball down their throats. A devastating running game helps you control the clock, move the chains, keep turnovers low and keep your defense off the field.

Zig when they zag. You'll win more often than just copying the herd and, as a bonus, the players you want will be easier to draft because they fit your needs more than other teams.

That's what Miami thought when they started to utilize the Wild Cat, but that didn't last either. Now they're looking for a proficient passer to run a pro-style offense so they can actually compete. I understand your argument, but what you think as a possible chance to be different and successful, that formula has proven to be faulty. By the way, look at Green Bay, Pittsburgh and New England - that's what happens when you use a spread offense with an efficient, quality passing quarterback.

[Jsteve01]

Where the hell do you guys gather your information?

Elway was one of the most proficient passers in during his collegiate years and though he was considered a mobile quarterback, he was drafted first overall because his arm, the same with Steve Young, even though he was drafted in the supplemental draft, he was mobile but still considered a quality passer. Both showed their arms' abilities once in the league. Elway's first season is skewed because the situations he was thrown into, especially in the first game of the year against Pittsburgh, eliminate that game and his numbers are vastly better. Steve Young, even though he was on a bad team that didn't know how to utilize him, he was showing his ability from the start. McNabb showed his ability from day one, he struggled his first season like Elway, but his skills were evident in his second season.

The only one off that list that could be used for your argument is Randall Cunningham, but in his second season he was showing that he had a cannon arm, one of those that today is still considered one of the strongest in NFL history, so it was evident in his second season he had improved and was capable of being a proficient passer.

lol I know that every one of those guys had great arms, but as they improved as quarterbacks, their runs decreased. Are you trying to debate that?

[Lancane]

All in all, despite the accuracy issues, I'm pretty content with Tebow right now. There were games, that despite Cutler's immense passing skills, that the Broncos were a lethargic mess, and didn't show any signs of life. And so far, for the most part, Tebow has shown a willingness to learn and grow as a QB, and we have an investment in him, I think we should at least see it through this season, at minimum.

Cutler had the ability to duel it out every single game, had we had Cutler against Detroit I would have felt we had a chance, same for most of the games on our schedule. He might not have been emotionally charging like Tebow, but at least he could spread the field, deliver the ball with some zing and accuracy, he's the type of quarterback that makes the term 'Any Given Sunday' hold weight. The Broncos were lethargic? He had a competing on a whole other level offensively, had we fixed the run game and the defense, we would have been back in the mix. Eh, but as I said before...believe what you want to.

As to Denver having an investment in Tebow, that is false...it's the fans who have faith in him which are invested. The Broncos are not married to him, they are not invested in him beyond paying his contract and that's not enough to drag this sorry circus out longer. No new regime is invested with players of the former, if we can trade Cutler the we can sure in the hell cut ties with Tebow, who might be a better human being then Cutler but is not half the quarterback.

[BroncoNut]

I have noticed that many people are still not convinced that Tebow is a viable option at QB or even improving for that matter.

People are still harping on the Completion %, errant throws, pocket presence, etc...

Newsflash...TEBOW IS NOT LIKE OTHER QB'S, therefore he cannot be measured in the same way we measure other QB's.

I don't know if some of you have noticed or just fail to acknowledge it, but Tebow is 3-3 in 6 starts on a really bad team. The same team that is 4-14 since Tebow has been drafted when he doesn't start.

Why is it that a team can go 4-14 with a QB putting up better, more consistent passing numbers, statistically speaking, and yet still manage to go 3-3 with a QB putting up inferior passing numbers?

Tebow's ability to pick up yards with his feet balance out the low completion %, as most teams use the short pass as a form of the running game (which in turn produces these high completion % that the NFL hasn't seen until recent years). It is the fact that Tebow plays the way that he does that gives this bad team a chance to win.

Obviously, we would all like to see that completion % improve, and in time, it certainly will as Tebow gains experience in reading defenses and developing his pocket awareness.

The occasional errant pass might be something we will always have to live with, but getting more comfortable in the pocket and getting more familiar with NFL defenses will only help the low completion % and this will eventually come with more gametime experience.

More important than the completion %, is the fact that Tebow protects the ball. Just 4 interceptions and 1 lost fumble in 179 attempts is excellent for a 12 year vet, let alone a guy with 6 starts under his belt. Anytime you protect the ball, you are going to have a chance to win. So you can have your 65% completions, and I'll take the low turnover rate.

I'm not even going to dive into his clutch ability to bring a team back, as anyone who says he doesn't have the clutch gene is going to lose that argument before they even start it.

The only way you can measure Tebow's success is TD/INT ratio, Points scored, and most importantly W's.

This team has many holes, yet is 3-3 when TT starts...So continue to harp on the convetional QB attributes that have brainwashed you over the years. Tebow will just continue going about things the way he does, proving all the critics wrong along the way.

If you are looking for that cookie cutter QB, Tebow will never be that guy....But if you want a guy who's gonna win games for you and give your team 100% of what he has every Sunday, then Tebow might be your guy.

I don't know, I'll be the first to jump all over his sack when he consistently proves himself. Until then fanbois notice this.

NFL FOOTBALL IS NOT LIKE NCAA FOOTBALL

[Bullgator]

this will all change when a 240lb linebacker hits him full steem in the chest on one of his runs and puts him on the sideline for the season, then what are you going to do??? orton, quinn??

:laugh: how ignorant can yo be? That already happens twice a game... Tebow IS that 245 LB.

Nothing in the world brings me the joy of watching "people"(I use that term very loosely) like you squirm when a good kid like this has success.

Take it Vettes... take it all...

[BroncoNut]

:laugh: how ignorant can yo be? That already happens twice a game... Tebow IS that 245 LB.

Nothing in the world brings me the joy of watching "people"(I use that term very loosely) like you squirm when a good kid like this has success.

Take it Vettes... take it all...

you just don't understand the cold cruel world of NFL football. enjoy it while it lasts if that is your take.

[Jsteve01]

and lan many people questioned Steve Young's ability to transition to the NFL game

[Lancane]

lol I know that every one of those guys had great arms, but as they improved as quarterbacks, their runs decreased. Are you trying to debate that?

No, I thought you were saying they couldn't throw...so my bad, if you meant that in a different sense.

Tebow however doesn't have the arm, release or accuracy of Young, Elway, Cunningham or McNabb. How sad is it that Tebow has shown to be less productive or accurate then some of the biggest busts in NFL history? It's true, Tim Couch and Joey Harrington were better quarterbacks then Tebow, if you compare statistically, Tebow is on par with Ryan Leaf and Akili Smith. How bad do you have to be that JeMarcus Russell is a more proficient quarterback?

[Bullgator]

Exactly. If he goes down, who runs that offense? Or..... do we change it back right after he gets hurt. Not hoping he does by any means but it's still an if.
Neither Orton or Quinn could run it. Thats putting all your eggs in one basket.

Yea well than having no ******* eggs or basket at all. Winning now with a risk of losing the magic is MUCH better than losing with a safe system with the prospect of still losing later.

Dont act like there is a better "Option"... pun intended

Ive said all along you have to build a system around Tebw because his intangibles are just too high not too. He will win many games and possibly some championships.

As for the future... you can recruit many running QBs out or college to back him up... and get them in the 5th 6th round. Lotsa guys out there in running systems that would not get drafted otherwise.

[Cugel]

I have said for some time now that I think if a coaching staff and organization went all in with Tebow they would win a lot of games. I've always thought he could be a good franchise QB in the right situation. He won't ever look like a normal QB and his passing stats will never be beautiful but he's going to win a lot of games.

The other thing I've always maintained is that Tebow won't have a career as long as most franchise QBs for a couple of reasons:
1. He obviously takes more of a beating than most QBs because of his style. Yes, he's built like a brick shithouse and tough as nails but he will wear down over time. I don't think you can take his aggression away from him, it's part of his DNA. He slides more and gets out of bounds more but he's always gonna get in the middle of some hits, it's his nature.

2. I also believe that his charitable work is vastly more important to him and at some point the beating and public spotlight of the NFL will interfere with that more than he likes. He is a smart guy and he will want to end this part of his career on his terms while still healthy enough to do missionary work. I could see Tebow as the kind of guy who if he won a SB (not saying that's a guarantee or anything just speaking hypothetical) even if it was in only his 6th season or something he would retire and move on to other things.

You've basically proved my point that Tebow will never be a Franchise QB in the NFL. :ranger:

The Broncos have given up on Tim Tebow and are playing out the string. Why should they try to measure him by the standards of QBing success in the NFL? Why should they try to mold him into a pocket passing QB when it's blindingly obvious that he's hopeless at it?

Next season, unless the Broncos somehow make the playoffs Elway will draft one of about 6 prospective franchise QBs and that will be the end of the "Tebow experiment." The Tebowniacs will howl, but there are REASONS why the system is the way it is and the biggest and most irrefutable reason is MONEY!

What the hell is the point of training a QB and getting him ready to lead your team to the playoffs -- if he's only going to last maybe 3 to 5 years because of the pounding he takes? And paying him $10 million a year to do it? That's just insane from a salary cap perspective!

Then you have to go out and start the process all over again and waste another 1st round pick on another QB. Meanwhile you are just wasting time and watching veterans like Dawkins and Champ retire.

Elway wants to get his franchise QB in right now. He couldn't do that this year without seeing whether Tebow could ever become a pocket passing QB, so the earliest they can draft a QB is next year. Fox wants "his" QB. The guy they are going to build the franchise around and hopefully in a few years time they've rebuilt the team to the point where they have a shot at the SB! And then that guy will hopefully be around for the next 10 seasons so the team has multiple chances to win Championships.

The model is Peyton Manning. Any year the Colts manage to build a good enough team around him, he's ready to win a SB. So, the Colts had an 11 year window and may have some more years if he can come back.

Are any of you so deluded that you think Tim Tebow will EVER be holding the Lombardi Trophy? :joyman:

Well, I suppose there are enough idiots with "faith in Tebow" -- because of course he "works hard" and he "did it in college" as if that had any significance. :shots:

The league is designed a certain way. The salary cap structure of the league is designed a certain way. Tebow does not fit that way. NFL economics dictates that he will never be a franchise QB unless he learns to become an elite passing QB.

None of this "he's unconventional but he wins" crap. Perhaps. But for how long? And at what price?

[Bullgator]

Simply, no I don't believe that Tebow can be a franchise quarterback and I don't believe Elway or Fox for that matter believe he can either. Those who have faith in Tebow, that's great...but this is a pass happy league and it's not going to change anytime soon. As one journalist said, maybe it will change in about fifteen or twenty years, but not now. At this time the high powered passing attacks are here to stay and have proven to be the most valid route to winning not only consistently but winning championships.

And I don't measure him in comparison to other franchise quarterbacks... For those of you who're are his fans or believe he can be something special, he's not even comparable to those considered mediocre, he's one of the worst quarterbacks I have ever seen and that's a fact. Tony Banks, who I played with in college looks like a pro-bowl caliber quarterback in comparison. Tebow is like a tight end who can throw the ball now and then, it's not enough no matter what offense you put into play, no matter how much you deviate from the pro-style, some of you are starting to come to the realization that he's not the future of this franchise, some are blindly still holding on with all your strength to deny it, believing that he can make up for the deficiency of the position with his legs or never say die attitude...but it's not enough.

I'm not here to tell you what to think or believe, if you think he's the future of this team...then good for you. But don't tell me what to think or believe either, because there is nothing, no statistics nor one ounce of proof that your opinion holds any validity, it's all built on faith...where at least my argument is backed up by what we're hearing and the statistics. I'm not a Orton homer either, I think Orton is mediocre - but I believe he's better then Tebow as a quarterback.

Pat Bowlen likes franchise quarterbacks like John Elway and Jay Cutler, John Elway prefers franchise quarterbacks like himself or Jay Cutler...if your honest with yourselves, do you really see Elway settling for a quarterback like Tim Tebow? I don't, but to each their own.

Lacane, you are blind.

[Lancane]

and lan many people questioned Steve Young's ability to transition to the NFL game

Of course they did, he was a left handed quarterback who was highly mobile, the success rate of left hand quarterbacks was next to nil at the time, not to mention that he played for a crappy offense with no line and was forced to run more then pass to save his life. But his numbers supported that he was an accurate passing quarterback even then.

[Lancane]

Lacane, you are blind.

No, you and the other Tebow fanatics are the one's who are blind, and pathetically so.

:coffee:

[BroncoNut]

this thread disgusts the shit out of me. look at yourselves girls

[Jsteve01]

No, I thought you were saying they couldn't throw...so my bad, if you meant that in a different sense.

Tebow however doesn't have the arm, release or accuracy of Young, Elway, Cunningham or McNabb. How sad is it that Tebow has shown to be less productive or accurate then some of the biggest busts in NFL history? It's true, Tim Couch and Joey Harrington were better quarterbacks then Tebow, if you compare statistically, Tebow is on par with Ryan Leaf and Akili Smith. How bad do you have to be that JeMarcus Russell is a more proficient quarterback?

Oh there's no doubt he lacks their arm strength. Im in the jury is still out camp Lan. I know he has to improve his accuracy, but as a former football player you and i know the most important thing to watch to see if Tim is progressing with his feet and Tim's feet looked much better in this game. I think it was Montana that said people needed to quit worrying about his delivery and accuracy and focus on his feet. If his footwork continues to improve, so will accuracy.

[silkamilkamonico]

Lacane, you are blind.

He's keeping it real. You have already anointed him the next best thing in the NFL, after a 3-3 record and 2 competent NFL games at QB.

[silkamilkamonico]

Oh there's no doubt he lacks their arm strength. Im in the jury is still out camp Lan. I know he has to improve his accuracy, but as a former football player you and i know the most important thing to watch to see if Tim is progressing with his feet and Tim's feet looked much better in this game. I think it was Montana that said people needed to quit worrying about his delivery and accuracy and focus on his feet. If his footwork continues to improve, so will accuracy.

This i just an observation from your post, but at what point do you need to transform "progression" to "it's working"?

[Jsteve01]

Of course they did, he was a left handed quarterback who was highly mobile, the success rate of left hand quarterbacks was next to nil at the time, not to mention that he played for a crappy offense with no line and was forced to run more then pass to save his life. But his numbers supported that he was an accurate passing quarterback even then.

That's false his td to int ratio in Tamp was abysmal. And his completion pct didn't jump 54% until his 5th year in the league.

[Lancane]

this thread disgusts the shit out of me. look at yourselves girls

Shut up Nut, if I wanted any shit from you I'd squeeze your head! :D


;)

[Cugel]

Ive said all along you have to build a system around Tebw because his intangibles are just too high not too. He will win many games and possibly some championships.

He'll be traded next March and Elway will draft a pocket passing QB. :ranger:

[Cugel]

Lacane, you are blind.

No, Lancane is exactly right. It's YOU who are blind. :ranger:

[Bullgator]

No, I thought you were saying they couldn't throw...so my bad, if you meant that in a different sense.

Tebow however doesn't have the arm, release or accuracy of Young, Elway, Cunningham or McNabb. How sad is it that Tebow has shown to be less productive or accurate then some of the biggest busts in NFL history? It's true, Tim Couch and Joey Harrington were better quarterbacks then Tebow, if you compare statistically, Tebow is on par with Ryan Leaf and Akili Smith. How bad do you have to be that JeMarcus Russell is a more proficient quarterback?

Okay now you have just lost all objectivity and respect for your opinions.

This is going to suck for you moving forward because all the bullshit hating wont change that Tim is leading this team to wins and to hope. The more you babble some stupid shit while he wins the more you are exposed as a fraud as a knowledgeable football fan. which IMO you are far from.

[Jsteve01]

This i just an observation from your post, but at what point do you need to transform "progression" to "it's working"?

It will be a natural progression. If his footwork continues to improve it will work. I believe that whole heartedly. The thing that Tebow has going for him is that he's not afraid to get hit. Getting punched in the mouth has ruined the careers of more than a few qbs who I feel had the talent to be above avg. See Carr, Couch and Walter.

[Bullgator]

No, Lancane is exactly right. It's YOU who are blind. :ranger:

Time will tell. Time is all Tim needs.

[Jsteve01]

Okay now you have just lost all objectivity and respect for your opinions.

This is going to suck for you moving forward because all the bullshit hating wont change that Tim is leading this team to wins and to hope. The more you babble some stupid shit while he wins the more you are exposed as a fraud as a knowledgeable football fan. which IMO you are far from.

bull the guy played ball at Michigan State...no offense but he knows a ton more about the game than you do. There are plenty of very knowledgeable football people who don't think Tim will make it. I for one prefer to let it play out on the field.

[BroncoStud]

Cutler had the ability to duel it out every single game, had we had Cutler against Detroit I would have felt we had a chance, same for most of the games on our schedule. He might not have been emotionally charging like Tebow, but at least he could spread the field, deliver the ball with some zing and accuracy, he's the type of quarterback that makes the term 'Any Given Sunday' hold weight. The Broncos were lethargic? He had a competing on a whole other level offensively, had we fixed the run game and the defense, we would have been back in the mix. Eh, but as I said before...believe what you want to.

As to Denver having an investment in Tebow, that is false...it's the fans who have faith in him which are invested. The Broncos are not married to him, they are not invested in him beyond paying his contract and that's not enough to drag this sorry circus out longer. No new regime is invested with players of the former, if we can trade Cutler the we can sure in the hell cut ties with Tebow, who might be a better human being then Cutler but is not half the quarterback.

Yes, we get it Lan, you're not a Tebow fan... But you've let this Tebow "thing" cloud your reasoning.

The Lions beat us 44-7 when they were far worse than this team and we were far better than our current roster. Stuff happens.

I'm a big Cutler fan but in 2008 we got blown out 3 or 4 times, including by the Raiders, AT HOME, and at SD when they beat us senseless, we also got destroyed by NE that year 41-7... So your "Cutler dueled with the best of them" argument has no merit.

This organization used several picks to trade up and acquire D. Thomas / T. Tebow. Why exactly would you not give either of them a chance? You seem fine starting D. Thomas as long as it takes but Tebow has actually contributed a lot to our wins in the past 2 seasons and you are done with him...

It's a ridiculous double-standard the dude faces. He has shown improvement, he's getting more comfortable, Denver is winning games they have no business winning. You want to bring in a statue like Landry Jones and groom him for 3 years so we can have the next Kyle Orton. No thanks.

Let's see what we have in the QB we're ALREADY invested in.

[Lancane]

That's false his td to int ratio in Tamp was abysmal. And his completion pct didn't jump 54% until his 5th year in the league.

Tebow can not even complete more then 50% of his passes, not this year at least. He's looked to have regressed from last year if anything. And I've already admitted that Young had issues in Tampa Bay, he was a left handed quarterback which was difficult enough, add in a horrific offensive line and absolutely no receivers worth a damn? That spells disaster on whole different level. Bill Walsh said much the same, that's why he went out and traded for him, he saw the promise in Young that was wasting in Tampa.

[silkamilkamonico]

It will be a natural progression. If his footwork continues to improve it will work. I believe that whole heartedly. The thing that Tebow has going for him is that he's not afraid to get hit. Getting punched in the mouth has ruined the careers of more than a few qbs who I feel had the talent to be above avg. See Carr, Couch and Walter.

At what point do you expect to see results and progression isn't enough?

2 years?
4 years?
6 years?
8 years?
10 years?

The NFL is all about timelines. No team is going to wait forever for a gu yto "figure it out". I'm not saying Tebow needs to show results next week, but he's been in the league for a year and a half now.

[silkamilkamonico]

Time will tell. Time is all Tim needs.

How much time?

2 years?
5 years?
10 years?

I say he has 8 weeks. Brady Quinn is already looking over his shoulder.

[Jsteve01]

At what point do you expect to see results and progression isn't enough?

2 years?
4 years?
6 years?
8 years?
10 years?

The NFL is all about timelines. No team is going to wait forever for a gu yto "figure it out". I'm not saying Tebow needs to show results next week, but he's been in the league for a year and a half now.

Gotcha. I completely agree. I think his completion pct at the end of the year needs to be over 55%. but Ill say this. In the second half of the game on Sunday his comp % looked to be up. And wins also have to factor into this equation at some level. Two wins in 3 starts would seem to be progression on an entirely different level.

[weazel]

I dont get it

[Juriga72]

So Orton who DEFINES "running QB" cannot Finnish ONE season in 7 while sitting in the pocket, and Tebow who is 245 "Wont finish one year"???

Face it injuries happen in the pocket or out of the pocket. I dont care Tebow doesnt throw for 500 yards in a loss, I care we win games.

HOW come we "Win games" when he is our qb? OR ...we lose to Arizona, San Fran, and other terrible teams with Orton as our QB

[Bullgator]

bull the guy played ball at Michigan State...no offense but he knows a ton more about the game than you do. There are plenty of very knowledgeable football people who don't think Tim will make it. I for one prefer to let it play out on the field.

I played ball too and so has hundreds of thousands of other people over the years. I dont care that he played ball.... at MSU of all places lol.

It will all play out, and is playing out.

No other QB in NFL history has been subject to such hate after 6 starts... the kid is 3-3 on a team that has been arguably the worst for 2 years.

Where is all the hate for sam bradford who has was picked #1 and is 0-6 this year? Or Gabbert? Or any other rookie QB who has had only six starts?

Tim has 17 touchdowns and only 5 turnovers.

For 6 starts plus a handful of plays! He has been phenomenal for a rook. Does he look pretty? no.. he needs to get his % up sure... and he will... he was a 65% player in college and he may not do that in the pros but hes capable of 60ish..

ALL HE NEEDS IS TIME.

But people like lacane and cudgel hide their hate within what they call logic but in fact its not even that. They just hate the man for what he stands for.

[Lancane]

Yes, we get it Lan, you're not a Tebow fan... But you've let this Tebow "thing" cloud your reasoning.

The Lions beat us 44-7 when they were far worse than this team and we were far better than our current roster. Stuff happens.

I'm a big Cutler fan but in 2008 we got blown out 3 or 4 times, including by the Raiders, AT HOME, and at SD when they beat us senseless, we also got destroyed by NE that year 41-7... So your "Cutler dueled with the best of them" argument has no merit.

This organization used several picks to trade up and acquire D. Thomas / T. Tebow. Why exactly would you not give either of them a chance? You seem fine starting D. Thomas as long as it takes but Tebow has actually contributed a lot to our wins in the past 2 seasons and you are done with him...

It's a ridiculous double-standard the dude faces. He has shown improvement, he's getting more comfortable, Denver is winning games they have no business winning. You want to bring in a statue like Landry Jones and groom him for 3 years so we can have the next Kyle Orton. No thanks.

Let's see what we have in the QB we're ALREADY invested in.

This organization is not invested in Tebow, it's the fans who are. The sooner that, that fact sinks in the sooner you realize that it's true. We traded picks to climb and acquire Cutler, if Denver can trade a quarterback of his quality, then stepping away from the Tebow project is just as viable and more probable.

Believe as you wish BS, I've long stated that I'm not hear to change people's opinions. I'm hear debating my opinion, you just happen to disagree with it. But at this time, the facts back up my opinion, yours is on faith and faith alone. People say that Oakland was Tebow's best game? Really? We used a collegiate gimmick offense, yet his stats were better against Miami, hell...go back to last year when McCoy used McDaniels playbook against Houston, that was his best game. This last game was statistically not even close to being his best game.

If Tebow had looked comparable to how he did against Houston last season, I would say there was an honest argument that Tebow could be a franchise quarterback, but literally he's been next to horrid in almost every other contest besides and that is what I'm basing my opinion on. As I stated before, how much faith can you have when Joey Harrington, Tim Couch and JeMarcus Russell all seem to be better quarterbacks?

;)

[turftoad]

I played ball too and so has hundreds of thousands of other people over the years. I dont care that he played ball.... at MSU of all places lol.

It will all play out, and is playing out.

No other QB in NFL history has been subject to such hate after 6 starts... the kid is 3-3 on a team that has been arguably the worst for 2 years.

Where is all the hate for sam bradford who has was picked #1 and is 0-6 this year? Or Gabbert? Or any other rookie QB who has had only six starts?

Tim has 17 touchdowns and only 5 turnovers.

For 6 starts plus a handful of plays! He has been phenomenal for a rook. Does he look pretty? no.. he needs to get his % up sure... and he will... he was a 65% player in college and he may not do that in the pros but hes capable of 60ish..

ALL HE NEEDS IS TIME.

But people like lacane and cudgel hide their hate within what they call logic but in fact its not even that. They just hate the man for what he stands for.

You sure do use the word hate freely. :tsk:

Just because some have not seen enough from Tebow or just don't see him as an NFL QB doesn't mean they hate him. People that don't have him on a pedestal probably don't hate him.
I'm sure as true Broncos fans (not just Tebow fans) they (we) would like to see him succeed. :shocked:

[DenBronx]

Tebow has the most wins out of all our QBs.

That much I get and the only thing that matters to me are Ws.

Beating the tar out of the raiders should buy this kid the rest of the year.

[Cugel]

Pat Bowlen likes franchise quarterbacks like John Elway and Jay Cutler, John Elway prefers franchise quarterbacks like himself or Jay Cutler...if your honest with yourselves, do you really see Elway settling for a quarterback like Tim Tebow? I don't, but to each their own.

That's the thing that the Tebowners can't wrap their heads around. That ANYBODY could not see how "exciting" Tebow is and "how he gives this team a chance to win."

The NFL is a business and they base their business model on other successful franchises that win SBs. And the owners look around and what do they see?

Aaron Rogers wining a SB in 2011.
Drew Brees winning a SB in 2010.
Ben Roethlisberger winning a SB in 2009.
Eli Manning, the former #1 overall pick winning a SB in 2008.
Peyton Manning winning a SB in 2007.
Ben Roethlisberger winning a SB in 2006.
Tom Brady winning 3 SB from 2002 to 2005.

And they want a QB to compete with those guys. And nobody, but NOBODY in the NFL thinks that Tebow will ever be one of those guys. The fans may be deluded by "faith" but NFL executives are not. :ranger:

[TXBRONC]

Tebow has the most wins out of all our QBs.

That much I get and the only thing that matters to me are Ws.

Beating the tar out of the raiders should buy this kid the rest of the year.

That ass stomping of the Raiders was a thing of beauty. :elefant:

[Cugel]

Okay now you have just lost all objectivity and respect for your opinions.

This is going to suck for you moving forward because all the bullshit hating wont change that Tim is leading this team to wins and to hope. The more you babble some stupid shit while he wins the more you are exposed as a fraud as a knowledgeable football fan. which IMO you are far from.

Kind of like when I said Kyle Orton was NOT a playoff caliber QB in 2009 and had to endure endless crap from "Orton's Army" about how "Orton is WAY better than Cry-baby Cutler! Good riddance to that cry-baby! McDaniels is great! We're 6-0 baby! Suck on that! Whoo! Hoo!" :ranger:

Like a cocaine binge it may get you high for a while but there WILL be a crash when reality hits.

[GEM]

17 hits on Tebow last game. Drew Brees 3.

How long can he last with that kind of punishment?

[Dreadnought]

You sure do use the word hate freely. :tsk:

Just because some have not seen enough from Tebow or just don't see him as an NFL QB doesn't mean they hate him. People that don't have him on a pedestal probably don't hate him.
I'm sure as true Broncos fans (not just Tebow fans) they (we) would like to see him succeed. :shocked:

Yep - nothing would make Bronco fans happer than for the Tebow experiment to work, for us to play solid ball the rest of the Year, and for us to be able to use a mid range #1 on one of our many other needs in the next draft rather than wasting years on yet another QB crapshoot. That has not happened yet, albeit there are encouraging signs. Tebow - and no one else - is the one who has to make that happen. If he's as good as you say no doubt he will, but your claiming he is there or is certain to be there doesn't make it so, at the same time that claims that EFX isn't invested in him are just as clearly wish projection. Let his own play make the argument and we'll have a look in January.

[Lancane]

I played ball too and so has hundreds of thousands of other people over the years. I dont care that he played ball.... at MSU of all places lol.

It will all play out, and is playing out.

No other QB in NFL history has been subject to such hate after 6 starts... the kid is 3-3 on a team that has been arguably the worst for 2 years.

Where is all the hate for sam bradford who has was picked #1 and is 0-6 this year? Or Gabbert? Or any other rookie QB who has had only six starts?

Tim has 17 touchdowns and only 5 turnovers.

For 6 starts plus a handful of plays! He has been phenomenal for a rook. Does he look pretty? no.. he needs to get his % up sure... and he will... he was a 65% player in college and he may not do that in the pros but hes capable of 60ish..

ALL HE NEEDS IS TIME.

But people like lacane and cudgel hide their hate within what they call logic but in fact its not even that. They just hate the man for what he stands for.

Watch your damn mouth boy, the next slight you make towards my Alma mater will be one too many! It was an honor and privilege to play under Nick Saban, and the football program was solid under his tutelage.

So, where did you go to school? What coaches did you play under? What position?

All you've done since joining this board has been running your mouth about Tebow this and Tebow that, if anything we can determine that your stance is the one that is skewed and misconceived. Because your not a fan of this team, your a fan of one player and it's been rather evident.

You say he has a 3-3 record, when we could say that actually that the Oakland win was a team win, no thanks to Tebow. Had McGahee been out, and Royal not scored on special teams we lose that game. I've given credit to Tebow before, but not this year, I haven't seen a damn thing this year that supports that he's of starting quarterback quality, let alone of a franchise quarterback. Don't even say that we don't hold others to the same standard, because we do. We've said the same of Orton, that a win was in no part thanks to him...perfect example would be the last win we had against San Diego in San Diego. That was all Royal, special teams and defense.

The Miami game we won because of him, the Houston win last year was because of him, but be careful not to step in shit while making your point. His numbers are not even sub-par this season, they're atrocious. As I said, had he continued to play at the level he did against Houston, then you have an argument. Not even being able to complete 50 percent of his passes, barely throw for more then a 100 yards...no matter the touchdown to interception ratio is pathetic. I'd rather Tebow had a higher completion percentage, more yards and more turnovers because then I could see a decent argument on his behalf, but at this time? There is not a damn thing that's pointing to him being a capable quarterback at this level.

:coffee:

[Cugel]

Yep - nothing would make Bronco fans happer than for the Tebow experiment to work, for us to play solid ball the rest of the Year, and for us to be able to use a mid range #1 on one of our many other needs in the next draft rather than wasting years on yet another QB crapshoot. That has not happened yet, albeit there are encouraging signs. Tebow - and no one else - is the one who has to make that happen. If he's as good as you say no doubt he will, but your claiming he is there or is certain to be there doesn't make it so, at the same time that claims that EFX isn't invested in him are just as clearly wish projection. Let his own play make the argument and we'll have a look in January.

It comes down to "can Tim Tebow learn to be an elite pocket passing QB." Because Elway has said over and over again that "I don't know of any QB who's won the SB without being able to pass accurately from the pocket."

That's still the standard of measurement. And they've given up on Tebow ever reaching it. The fans might love the new Tebow package but does Fox want that to be his base offense for the next 3 to 5 years? Or are they going to try and trade up and get Luck or Barkley? Or one of the other QBs who project to being good passing QBs in this league.

[Fullback32]

Where is all the hate for sam bradford who has was picked #1 and is 0-6 this year? Or Gabbert? Or any other rookie QB who has had only six starts?.

C'mon now, be fair. Bradford has been out for 3 -4 of those games.


But people like lacane and cudgel hide their hate within what they call logic but in fact its not even that. They just hate the man for what he stands for.

Seriously...that's the argument? That people don't like his religion? Wow, very thin that. I think that if people saw the second coming of Elway, they could give a rat's-ass about his faith.

Honest question: are you a Florida homer and that's clouding some of your Tebow assessment?

Look, I'm a Texas homer, but I could see that Vince Young despite winning a National Champioinship would be no NFL caliber QB. And BTW, Colt McCoy is s a religious guy, but I had no problem with him guiding the Longhorns, though I do wonder jsut how effective he will be in the long run for the Browns.

Just sayin'

[DenBronx]

That's the thing that the Tebowners can't wrap their heads around. That ANYBODY could not see how "exciting" Tebow is and "how he gives this team a chance to win."

The NFL is a business and they base their business model on other successful franchises that win SBs. And the owners look around and what do they see?

Aaron Rogers wining a SB in 2011.
Drew Brees winning a SB in 2010.
Ben Roethlisberger winning a SB in 2009.
Eli Manning, the former #1 overall pick winning a SB in 2008.
Peyton Manning winning a SB in 2007.
Ben Roethlisberger winning a SB in 2006.
Tom Brady winning 3 SB from 2002 to 2005.

And they want a QB to compete with those guys. And nobody, but NOBODY in the NFL thinks that Tebow will ever be one of those guys. The fans may be deluded by "faith" but NFL executives are not. :ranger:



You're forgetting that Rogers and Rothlisberger had some of the worst mechanics when they first came into the league. Rogers had 3 whole years to ride the bench and work on it. Big Bens coaches tried to change up his mechanics then finally they just said forget it and just let him play his game and it worked.


But you cant just accept the fact that Tebow will only get better. I love how fans want to write this guy off or say he will never improve in the passing game. :coffee:

I'm not blind or a Tebowner but damn even Ray Charles could see he was better than Orton. Who else are we going to play right now? Why complain the rest of the year? If he does good then we made the right decision, if he sucks it up then he can sit his butt back on the bench or we can trade him. In the mean time just enjoy the wins on this sucky ass team.

[Cugel]

But people like lacane and cudgel hide their hate within what they call logic but in fact its not even that. They just hate the man for what he stands for.

That one made me laugh! "Cudgel" I like that. I like to think I take a cudgel to unthinking fan idolatry!

But, what makes me "hate" Tebow is simply that I don't see him able to stand in the pocket and throw accurate passes. And in over a year since he joined the team I don't see that he's gotten any better at it. His passes remind me of Joe Kapp.

If that makes me a "hater" then so be it! :wave:

[Lancane]

You sure do use the word hate freely. :tsk:

Just because some have not seen enough from Tebow or just don't see him as an NFL QB doesn't mean they hate him. People that don't have him on a pedestal probably don't hate him.
I'm sure as true Broncos fans (not just Tebow fans) they (we) would like to see him succeed. :shocked:

And that is the God's honest truth. I would love to not have to waste a pick on another quarterback, we have so many needs it's pathetic. But Tebow hasn't proved it and until he does I will point out what is evident. I myself would love nothing more for Tebow to come out in a pro-style offense and throw for 300 yards with a completion rate near 60% and three touchdowns. If he does that against Kansas City I would be ecstatic, and more so if it became an every game thing.

I like Tebow as a person, what a great kid and character...but that's not enough for me to think he's a franchise quarterback or the future of this team - he needs to prove it and do so on the field!

[Davii]

Like that can only happen while he's running. :tsk:

Or like it can't happen in the pocket. He's a qb, that doesn't automatically mean he's fragile. Especially when you consider his size and build.

[Cugel]

I'm not blind or a Tebowner but damn even Ray Charles could see he was better than Orton. Who else are we going to play right now? Why complain the rest of the year? If he does good then we made the right decision, if he sucks it up then he can sit his butt back on the bench or we can trade him. In the mean time just enjoy the wins on this sucky ass team.

Better than Orton? That's the gold standard now? :laugh:

I used to fantasize about punching McMoron's smug face in after the Cutler trade, so I wouldn't say I'm an Orton backer. I admire his hard work and unflinching professionalism in the face of endless pointless fan hostility.

But, he flat isn't a very good QB. He's a mediocre former 4th rounder and I've been saying that since January 2009.

Which was a VERY UNPOPULAR opinion on Broncos messages boards for over a year with all the Orton's Army crowd babbling about how great he was.

And now the same people seem to have switched over to Tebow worship. He's not remotely comparable to Ben Roethlisberger and never will be.

That's the fundamental failure of the Teboners. They refuse to see that even "rough" QBs like Rogers and Roethlisberger were better passing QBs in their rookie years than Tebow is right now. Neither of those guys would be in the league if they were as horrible at standing in the pocket and delivering the ball as Tebow continues to be.

He's just not NFL QB material. And a few wins this season will never change that.

But, I suppose I will have to wait ONCE AGAIN for reality to catch up with all the Teboners. By next April when Tebow is GONE and a new rookie QB is on the roster will it be too soon to say "I told you so?" :ranger:

[Dreadnought]

And that is the God's honest truth. I would love to not have to waste a pick on another quarterback, we have so many needs it's pathetic. But Tebow hasn't proved it and until he does I will point out what is evident. I myself would love nothing more for Tebow to come out in a pro-style offense and throw for 300 yards with a completion rate near 60% and three touchdowns. If he does that against Kansas City I would be ecstatic, and more so if it became an every game thing.

I like Tebow as a person, what a great kid and character...but that's not enough for me to think he's a franchise quarterback or the future of this team - he needs to prove it and do so on the field!

I'm sort of in that same boat, but I don't want to see 300 yards passing from any QB unless he can do it with fewer than 30-35 attempts. 150-200 running? You bet. That should be the goal. Screw that pass happy crap. If you can run effectively you can always choose to pass as a luxury, not vice versa.

[Cugel]

Or like it can't happen in the pocket. He's a qb, that doesn't automatically mean he's fragile. Especially when you consider his size and build.

There's a saying in the military: "There are old warriors and there are bold warriors, but there are NO old bold warriors." If you keep exposing yourself to enemy fire by going up on the firing line it's just a question of time before you get hit.

And it doesn't matter if you're careful and learn to keep your head down, it's just a matter of statistics. Keep rolling the dice and sooner or later you will roll snake eyes.

If Tebow keeps running the ball and taking 250 hits a year he just won't last very long. And I doubt it will even be a problem for him because NFL teams aren't going to give him the chance for long enough. He'll have to prove himself for the Toronto Argonauts or something.

[pnbronco]

The win was great, esp against the Raiders, always makes for a good week. Of course I didn't get see that game I was working I got to sit through the painful....really painful game against the Lions, oh well. From what I heard on the recap of the radio it was a team win with D, Special Teams and Willis M. playing some pretty big roles.

I will watch the rest of the year, cheer for the team and see how it all plays out.

However being told I do not get "it", really does not change my mind on anything. Also being told that I hate Tim because of what he stands for is beyond funny and little sad.

Tim is a great kid, I wish him as a person only the very best.

With what I've seen so far I still have my doubts if he will be our starting QB 2 years from now. Unless things change a lot between now and the end of the year I see the Broncos still taking a QB in the first next draft. The more film they get on him, the more they will set up D's to go against the team. NFL teams adjust quickly.

[Lancane]

I'm sort of in that same boat, but I don't want to see 300 yards passing from any QB unless he can do it with fewer than 30-35 attempts. 150-200 running? You bet. That should be the goal. Screw that pass happy crap. If you can run effectively you can always choose to pass as a luxury, not vice versa.

I hope to God you don't mean for Tebow to be the ball carrier for those 150 to 200 yards? :eek:

Don't get me wrong, I want a solid running game instilled, because having a solid rushing and passing attack will be the best path to winning on a consistent basis. If Tebow could even match up with Roethlisberger on a statistical basis I would be happy, but there will be times that the run game is slower to start if not outright struggles and to win will require more from the quarterback and I don't see Tebow as being able to do that, to put the team on his shoulders and carry it over the finish line.

:beer:

[Bullgator]

You sure do use the word hate freely. :tsk:

Just because some have not seen enough from Tebow or just don't see him as an NFL QB doesn't mean they hate him. People that don't have him on a pedestal probably don't hate him.
I'm sure as true Broncos fans (not just Tebow fans) they (we) would like to see him succeed. :shocked:

dont kid yourself turf it is HATE. it is an irrational inner HATE and it has everything to do with his beleifs and the way he displays them pure and simple... you know it and i know it... all this other shit would be given time to decide... hes being rushed off the feild because of who he is not how he plays

[vandammage13]

This organization is not invested in Tebow, it's the fans who are. The sooner that, that fact sinks in the sooner you realize that it's true. We traded picks to climb and acquire Cutler, if Denver can trade a quarterback of his quality, then stepping away from the Tebow project is just as viable and more probable.

Believe as you wish BS, I've long stated that I'm not hear to change people's opinions. I'm hear debating my opinion, you just happen to disagree with it. But at this time, the facts back up my opinion, yours is on faith and faith alone. People say that Oakland was Tebow's best game? Really? We used a collegiate gimmick offense, yet his stats were better against Miami, hell...go back to last year when McCoy used McDaniels playbook against Houston, that was his best game. This last game was statistically not even close to being his best game.

If Tebow had looked comparable to how he did against Houston last season, I would say there was an honest argument that Tebow could be a franchise quarterback, but literally he's been next to horrid in almost every other contest besides and that is what I'm basing my opinion on. As I stated before, how much faith can you have when Joey Harrington, Tim Couch and JeMarcus Russell all seem to be better quarterbacks?

;)

Stats are for losers Lan...If you really think Tebow had a better game against Miami than he did against OAK then it just outlines how ignorant you really are.

Against Miami he only played well for about 5 minutes yet you look at the yardage and claim he was better....Wow...for as much football knowledge you supposedly have, one would think that you would know that stats don't tell the whole story.

[jhildebrand]

dont kid yourself turf it is HATE. it is an irrational inner HATE and it has everything to do with his beleifs and the way he displays them pure and simple... you know it and i know it... all this other shit would be given time to decide... hes being rushed off the feild because of who he is not how he plays

Sorry Gator but I feel you are wrong here.

The NFL would love nothing more than a squeeky clean kid with an image like Tebow's. They can market the hell out of that all day long. They would do anything for 32 of them and 0 Vick's.

Tebow is being given his chance. He isn't being rushed. Quite frankly, I am surprised to see him being given a full compliment of option plays. That says A LOT! This team is looking hard and close to see just what they can do with TT.

[Lancane]

dont kid yourself turf it is HATE. it is an irrational inner HATE and it has everything to do with his beleifs and the way he displays them pure and simple... you know it and i know it... all this other shit would be given time to decide... hes being rushed off the feild because of who he is not how he plays

Bullshit, you don't even expect him to prove himself before you crown his ass. No one hates him because of his faith, I am admittedly disturbed by his 'cult' like following, but that is not on him, it's on them. And that them is proving to include you, because as I've said...you've continually proven to be a fan of his, not of the team. He's being rushed off the field because compared to other quarterbacks who were part of his class or the one which followed, they have for the most part all proven more competent in their roles, give Blaine Gabbert.

No one hates the kid himself, that's a cheap, cheesy excuse for those who don't get their way or have others believing as they do. It's not about religion, I could care less if he was a Voodoo Priest or Satanist, he could be a a freaking Muslim extremist and I still wouldn't care, it's not about religious or political beliefs...it's about the game of football and the position which he plays and in that regard, he's not up to standards.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

dont kid yourself turf it is HATE. it is an irrational inner HATE and it has everything to do with his beleifs and the way he displays them pure and simple... you know it and i know it... all this other shit would be given time to decide... hes being rushed off the feild because of who he is not how he plays

Explain what you mean that TT is being rushed off the field :confused: Also, I am sure, within Denver Bronco fans, there are some that totally dislike him for his beliefs ONLY. However, for most Denver Bronco fans, I am sure that there are some who do NOT see him as a starting NFL QB. BDawk made it known that he is very religious not long after he signed with the Broncos. There are others on the team who are very religious. MOST Bronco fans want the team to win - NOT that they ONLY want the team to win, either WITH OR WITHOUT TT.

[turftoad]

dont kid yourself turf it is HATE. it is an irrational inner HATE and it has everything to do with his beleifs and the way he displays them pure and simple... you know it and i know it... all this other shit would be given time to decide... hes being rushed off the feild because of who he is not how he plays

Maybe, maybe not.
I'm still a sceptic of Tebow as an NFL QB. Does that make me hate him?? Hell no it doesn't.
This whole thing has less to do with WHO he is but moreso of what he does on the field.
Go ahead and make more out of it because of his beleifs if you must but, I don't believe thats the case.

[Dreadnought]

Sorry Gator but I feel you are wrong here.

The NFL would love nothing more than a squeeky clean kid with an image like Tebow's. They can market the hell out of that all day long. They would do anything for 32 of them and 0 Vick's.

Tebow is being given his chance. He isn't being rushed. Quite frankly, I am surprised to see him being given a full compliment of option plays. That says A LOT! This team is looking hard and close to see just what they can do with TT.

I agree almost entirely. I do think that some guys in the Sports media are as ate up with hate as Bullgator says, but certainly not the League and not the Broncos organization. I am really impressed with Fox's handling of this whole thing, by the way. Far more flexible and creative than I had thought he'd be, and I am a bit of a Fox fan from his Carolina days.

[Lancane]

Stats are for losers Lan...If you really think Tebow had a better game against Miami than he did against OAK then it just outlines how ignorant you really are.

Against Miami he only played well for about 5 minutes yet you look at the yardage and claim he was better....Wow...for as much football knowledge you supposedly have, one would think that you would know that stats don't tell the whole story.

Quarterbacks struggle, the measure of a quarterback is how he overcomes those struggles, how they respond in the face of diversity. That's what he did against Miami, and in that last five minutes he was better then he's been, he was better in the second half against Oakland, he looked like shit before hand. Statistically though he had a better game against Miami overall. Call it ignorance if you want, like I give a shit about the opinion another Tebow fanatic has of me or mine. Football knowledge requires people to be unbiased, neither you or Bullgator can say that you are.

[BroncoStud]

This organization is not invested in Tebow, it's the fans who are. The sooner that, that fact sinks in the sooner you realize that it's true. We traded picks to climb and acquire Cutler, if Denver can trade a quarterback of his quality, then stepping away from the Tebow project is just as viable and more probable.

Believe as you wish BS, I've long stated that I'm not hear to change people's opinions. I'm hear debating my opinion, you just happen to disagree with it. But at this time, the facts back up my opinion, yours is on faith and faith alone. People say that Oakland was Tebow's best game? Really? We used a collegiate gimmick offense, yet his stats were better against Miami, hell...go back to last year when McCoy used McDaniels playbook against Houston, that was his best game. This last game was statistically not even close to being his best game.

If Tebow had looked comparable to how he did against Houston last season, I would say there was an honest argument that Tebow could be a franchise quarterback, but literally he's been next to horrid in almost every other contest besides and that is what I'm basing my opinion on. As I stated before, how much faith can you have when Joey Harrington, Tim Couch and JeMarcus Russell all seem to be better quarterbacks?

;)

Faith alone? My only FAITH in this is that I watch the games and I see a BAD team with a QB keeping them in games and even winning games they shouldn't win. He isn't pretty doing it, he has a long way to go, but he is improving everytime he takes the field.

I don't have unreal expectations, like many here. We spent a lot to get him, see what he can do before you close the chapter and move on. It would be a damn shame if we moved Tebow out for a mediocre QB (you know, like MOST that come out of college), only to see him turn the corner and become a franchise QB for another franchise.

I think many here will be quick to tell you that trading Cutler was stupid. So let's not make the same mistake twice. I will wait until the end of the season to make my Tebow analysis. Until then I will be more than happy if he simply continues to improve, because as flawed as his game is right now, he makes us competitive and physical, and it carries over to the entire team, offense and defense, and we are better for it. A team will take on the character of it's coach and QB, and that was on full display Sunday at Oakland.

[BroncoStud]

I agree almost entirely. I do think that some guys in the Sports media are as ate up with hate as Bullgator says, but certainly not the League and not the Broncos organization. I am really impressed with Fox's handling of this whole thing, by the way. Far more flexible and creative than I had thought he'd be, and I am a bit of a Fox fan from his Carolina days.

Yes, I agree, Fox has bee far more creative than I gave him credit for or expected him to be. I'm not a Fox fan, at all, but I am warming up to his ways all the time. He's patient, very patient.

[GEM]

I can name one sports figure I hate right now and his initials are not TT. He's the scumbag pedo up in Penn State.

I reserve hate for those that are truly worthy and those who earn it.

I hope TT is a great Broncos QB. I'm not so sure he will be . I certainly don't hate him for his faith. That's his business, not mine. I just want the best QB for the Denver Broncos. Maybe he'll be that, maybe he won't. He won't be the first to fail if he is not.

[Fullback32]

dont kid yourself turf it is HATE. it is an irrational inner HATE and it has everything to do with his beleifs and the way he displays them pure and simple... you know it and i know it... all this other shit would be given time to decide... hes being rushed off the feild because of who he is not how he plays

Wow, by that reasoning then Kurt Warner or even Roger Staubach would have never had any fans. Given that, does what you say still make any sense at all?

[vandammage13]

Quarterbacks struggle, the measure of a quarterback is how he overcomes those struggles, how they respond in the face of diversity. That's what he did against Miami, and in that last five minutes he was better then he's been, he was better in the second half against Oakland, he looked like shit before hand. Statistically though he had a better game against Miami overall. Call it ignorance if you want, like I give a shit about the opinion another Tebow fanatic has of me or mine. Football knowledge requires people to be unbiased, neither you or Bullgator can say that you are.

Not a TT fanboi (until he became a Bronco anyway), just calling a spade a spade.

The guy is winning in spite of all said flaws...

You can make up all the excuses you want to discredit the W's, but as long as he continues to win, I want that guy as my QB, and you will just have to sink in the quicksand you have planted yourself in with your stance that has TT already written off.

If you think putting up good stats is what we need as a QB, that's on you. I'll take the guy who wins despite conventional wisdom.

[Dreadnought]

Yes, I agree, Fox has bee far more creative than I gave him credit for or expected him to be. I'm not a Fox fan, at all, but I am warming up to his ways all the time. He's patient, very patient.

Fox >>>> Josh McDaniels. There is no comparison whatever. Fox is a consummate professional who has done a lot of good here already. He may not be "the guy" but he's gone a long way towards scouring out the disaster area left behind by that smug little fake.

[Fullback32]

Yes, I agree, Fox has bee far more creative than I gave him credit for or expected him to be. I'm not a Fox fan, at all, but I am warming up to his ways all the time. He's patient, very patient.

Agreed. That he adjusted the offense to the Read-Option just to accomodate Tebow is telling in itself. I don't think Sunday's success with it will be repeated all that often in the NFL, but good on Fox not trying to make the square peg fit in the round hole.

[G_Money]

That's the thing that the Tebowners can't wrap their heads around. That ANYBODY could not see how "exciting" Tebow is and "how he gives this team a chance to win."

The NFL is a business and they base their business model on other successful franchises that win SBs. And the owners look around and what do they see?

Aaron Rogers wining a SB in 2011.
Drew Brees winning a SB in 2010.
Ben Roethlisberger winning a SB in 2009.
Eli Manning, the former #1 overall pick winning a SB in 2008.
Peyton Manning winning a SB in 2007.
Ben Roethlisberger winning a SB in 2006.
Tom Brady winning 3 SB from 2002 to 2005.

And they want a QB to compete with those guys. And nobody, but NOBODY in the NFL thinks that Tebow will ever be one of those guys. The fans may be deluded by "faith" but NFL executives are not. :ranger:

Aaron Rogers plummeted in the draft, with NFL executives believing he had an attitude problem and pundits debating whether he was capable of being a top-tier QB in the NFL.

Tom Brady was a 6th round pick and was only supposed to be a backup AT BEST. Not enough arm strength or pocket presence to get it done.

Eli Manning was drafted #1, but was mocked his first couple of years in NY, derided by pundits as being too dumb and too cavalier with the ball to ever win a Super Bowl.

Drew Brees was a second round pick who was too short and didn't have enough arm, which is why he fell to the 2nd round. He got fired by the team that drafted him.

Roethlisberger held the ball too long, had a weird motion, "never played anybody" and was viewed by some as an overdraft by a guy who didn't know anything about QBs and was using an XFL reject and before that a Slash to get the job done at the position.

Peyton Manning is the one No-Brainer on that list from draft day on (even though there was a debate in some circles about him vs. Leaf, nobody doubted Peyton was gonna be a good one).

He's also the one who has managed to underachieve in his career, according to most.

It wasn't guaranteed that most of THESE guys would be the heirs to the Marino/Elway/Young/Kelly/Aikman mantles. Certainly they had their detractors and doubters in the same timeframe.

At the same point in their careers Eli was being booed, Brees was viewed as a mistake (to the point that he was REPLACED eventually in SD), Rogers was sitting for what would be years on end, and Brady had just gotten into a handful of games, thanks only to a life-threatening injury to the starter.

The NFL paradigm says, "get a great QB so you can win titles." WHO is a great QB - or who can be - is the harder part to nail down, and most of the champions you listed were doubted by a large segment of the populace at one point or another.

The NFL is a copycat league. It would indeed be rare to give a QB like Tebow a chance. If he succeeds, though, then others will feel free to copy THAT model instead.

Somebody's got to be first.

~G

[Lancane]

Yes, I agree, Fox has bee far more creative than I gave him credit for or expected him to be. I'm not a Fox fan, at all, but I am warming up to his ways all the time. He's patient, very patient.

The way I'm looking at it right now is to measure Fox we'll need to see what he does at the end of the season and through next year. He inherited a team with little talent, a quarterback controversy on the level few have seen, kept an offensive coordinator that looks to have gotten his degree from Backwater U, and understands offensive football less then my seven year old daughter. And yet, he hasn't ripped out his hair and turned into a salivating madman which I give him credit for.

[vandammage13]

The way I'm looking at it right now is to measure Fox we'll need to see what he does at the end of the season and through next year. He inherited a team with little talent, a quarterback controversy on the level few have seen, kept an offensive coordinator that looks to have gotten his degree from Backwater U, and understands offensive football less then my seven year old daughter. And yet, he hasn't ripped out his hair and turned into a salivating madman which I give him credit for.

If only you afforded your QB the same amount of time...

[Lancane]

Not a TT fanboi (until he became a Bronco anyway), just calling a spade a spade.

The guy is winning in spite of all said flaws...

You can make up all the excuses you want to discredit the W's, but as long as he continues to win, I want that guy as my QB, and you will just have to sink in the quicksand you have planted yourself in with your stance that has TT already written off.

If you think putting up good stats is what we need as a QB, that's on you. I'll take the guy who wins despite conventional wisdom.

Van, winning a game or two against mediocre or middle of the road teams is different then being able to compete on a continuous basis and actually be a contender. It's great we beat Oakland, and we should have beat Miami...but there are games that his lackluster play will hinder this team from being able to win, and it's those games which are the most important.

I'm sorry if I labeled you a fanatic if you are not, but often enough you run to defend Tebow even when there is no just cause for such, because he literally hasn't looked like a capable starting quarterback at this level. If he did, I wouldn't be so adamant that he's not the answer and would be on your side of the argument.

[Ravage!!!]

If you think that Tebow has SUCh a unique skillset that he can not, or SHOULD not, be compared to other NFL QBs..... then I just have to say that you are sadly mistaken. Its this insistence of putting Tebow on some higher pedestal, believing that he is somehow "different" than ANYONE else we've ever seen, that brings on the excuse after excuse.... and then the attack after attack.

Tebow will be, and SHOULD be, compared to every other NFL QB. Thats the position he plays, and there has been a VERY distinct set of skills that translates to success. Please STOP thinking that Tebow is going to "change" the QB position. He's not.

[vandammage13]

Van, winning a game or two against mediocre or middle of the road teams is different then being able to compete on a continuous basis and actually be a contender. It's great we beat Oakland, and we should have beat Miami...but there are games that his lackluster play will hinder this team from being able to win, and it's those games which are the most important.

I'm sorry if I labeled you a fanatic if you are not, but often enough you run to defend Tebow even when there is no just cause for such, because he literally hasn't looked like a capable starting quarterback at this level. If he did, I wouldn't be so adamant that he's not the answer and would be on your side of the argument.

I run to defend him because when I see him play, I see something there that I think you can win with.

I'm not necessarily talking about straight up QB skills, but the ablility to do some of the things he does cannot be coached or taught, and are very rare.

IF he can learn the other things I think this kid can be something really special.

I just see a guy who is winning on a team that hasn't been able to win much lately, no matter who the opponent was. To be able to lead this terrible team to victories takes a special talent IMO, I don't care who it is we beat.

Sunday's win was in fact a team win, but I think part of that is TT has this TEAM playing inspired....call it corny or whatever, but that's what I see.

The kid is winning in the NFL when some said it was embarassing to think we could do so. If he's as bad as you think he is, yet still able to pull out victories, then imagine the potential if he improves.

[Lancane]

If only you afforded your QB the same amount of time...

Van, be careful of where you step, as I told Bullgator, you could step into shit! ;)

Tebow has had over a season and a half under a pro coaching staff, whether inept or not and he's not improving. In fact he's looked to have regressed, it was almost as if the game against Houston is where he peaked and this is the down spiral of his career...that's rather pathetic. He's so much of a project Van that he looks far less competent then kids drafted in the second round in both his own class and the one that followed. That's not a good thing, I would love for him to be the next Roethlisberger, hell I'd settle for another Sanchez...but he's not getting it done, despite the win-loss record it's rather evident.

[BroncoStud]

To follow-up on G-Money's response, I remember very plainly watching Drew Brees playing as a San Diego Charger and thinking to myself "that is the worst performance I have EVER seen from a QB..." - I thought he was done right there.

It's amazing what happens when you get into the right system, with the right coach, and some experience.

[catfish]

Not a TT fanboi (until he became a Bronco anyway), just calling a spade a spade.

The guy is winning in spite of all said flaws...

You can make up all the excuses you want to discredit the W's, but as long as he continues to win, I want that guy as my QB, and you will just have to sink in the quicksand you have planted yourself in with your stance that has TT already written off.

If you think putting up good stats is what we need as a QB, that's on you. I'll take the guy who wins despite conventional wisdom.

this is actually pretty much the crux of the arguement with Lancane, Cugel, Mo and some of the so called Tebow "haters"(not my words) They are looking towards the team 7-10 years doen the road. Myself and others on my side are looking at the team now. I personally think Tebow has already been written off by Denver and won't be starting next year. I'm ok with that. My argument is to let him play as what is there to lose? He probably won't ever develop to Rodgers level, maybe not even Vick. He could be a complete flameout, my point is that there is no benefit to playing anyone else at this point. Worst case you get a higher pick best case he manages to bring some trade value to a team looking for a different type of qb. Lancane has gone on record saying that Tebow might be better off in Jax and that Tebow's style doesn't match what the FO is looking for. I tend to agree I just disagree that Tebow won't be able to make it anywhere I think a team that is going to focus on the run to get them into the playoffs might see Tebow as a valuable asset for the benefits he brings the ground game.

[vandammage13]

If you think that Tebow has SUCh a unique skillset that he can not, or SHOULD not, be compared to other NFL QBs..... then I just have to say that you are sadly mistaken. Its this insistence of putting Tebow on some higher pedestal, believing that he is somehow "different" than ANYONE else we've ever seen, that brings on the excuse after excuse.... and then the attack after attack.

Tebow will be, and SHOULD be, compared to every other NFL QB. Thats the position he plays, and there has been a VERY distinct set of skills that translates to success. Please STOP thinking that Tebow is going to "change" the QB position. He's not.

We'll see Rav...TT won on Sunday running something that hasn't been tried in the NFL.

Time will tell if defenses can stop it (and maybe they will), but if they don't then it would in fact revolutionize the position.

[jhildebrand]

Tebow has had over a season and a half under a pro coaching staff,

This is debatable at best. Under McDaniels, Tebow didn't receive any instruction or work once the season began. That has been made abundantly clear.

He also was the NFL's biggest victim of the lockout. One could argue he had 3 weeks of instruction last year and 3 this year.



whether inept or not and he's not improving.

The center exchange has improved immensely :noidea:

:lol:

[vandammage13]

Van, be careful of where you step, as I told Bullgator, you could step into shit! ;)

Tebow has had over a season and a half under a pro coaching staff, whether inept or not and he's not improving. In fact he's looked to have regressed, it was almost as if the game against Houston is where he peaked and this is the down spiral of his career...that's rather pathetic. He's so much of a project Van that he looks far less competent then kids drafted in the second round in both his own class and the one that followed. That's not a good thing, I would love for him to be the next Roethlisberger, hell I'd settle for another Sanchez...but he's not getting it done, despite the win-loss record it's rather evident.

Just found it rather hypocritical that you would afford a coach that has already been a HC for 10 years (or however long) more time to prove himself than a QB who has 6 career starts...That is all.

[BroncoStud]

Isn't it a forgone conclusion that the spread is going to become more and more common in the NFL? It always works this way. High School, NCAA, then NFL... 10 years ago the spread was just gaining traction in the NCAA, 10 years later it's just gaining traction in the NFL. NE was ahead of their time and it's paid huge dividends, just like Bill Walsh was ahead of his time.

As Tebow becomes more and more comfortable throwing the football I would expect him to run less and less, it seems like a natural evolution of one's development. Elway was no different. He was clueless his rookie season, but he learned to throw more in the pocket and rely less on his legs to make plays.

[jhildebrand]

We'll see Rav...TT won on Sunday running something that hasn't been tried in the NFL.

Time will tell if defenses can stop it (and maybe they will), but if they don't then it would in fact revolutionize the position.

There is nothing that can be done in the NFL that is new or novel. It has all been done at some point.

How can the position be revolutionized when the league has already seen the likes of Elway, Young, Cunningham, McNabb, Vick, that old Bears QB, and a plethora of other QB's with similar skill sets to Tebow.

In fact, I loathe the revolution talk because all of those other QB's were much more polished passers mechanically and statistically. To insist one would revolutionize the position when that person may have fewer developed skills is laughable.

[rcsodak]

Exactly. If he goes down, who runs that offense? Or..... do we change it back right after he gets hurt. Not hoping he does by any means but it's still an if.
Neither Orton or Quinn could run it. Thats putting all your eggs in one basket.
Fox addressed that on sirius nfl yesterday. Said they'd just go back to how they started the year.
He ended by saying, "but Tim wont get hurt".

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[NorCalBronco7]

I have noticed that many people are still not convinced that Tebow is a viable option at QB or even improving for that matter.

People are still harping on the Completion %, errant throws, pocket presence, etc...

Newsflash...TEBOW IS NOT LIKE OTHER QB'S, therefore he cannot be measured in the same way we measure other QB's.

I don't know if some of you have noticed or just fail to acknowledge it, but Tebow is 3-3 in 6 starts on a really bad team. The same team that is 4-14 since Tebow has been drafted when he doesn't start.

Why is it that a team can go 4-14 with a QB putting up better, more consistent passing numbers, statistically speaking, and yet still manage to go 3-3 with a QB putting up inferior passing numbers?

Tebow's ability to pick up yards with his feet balance out the low completion %, as most teams use the short pass as a form of the running game (which in turn produces these high completion % that the NFL hasn't seen until recent years). It is the fact that Tebow plays the way that he does that gives this bad team a chance to win.

Obviously, we would all like to see that completion % improve, and in time, it certainly will as Tebow gains experience in reading defenses and developing his pocket awareness.

The occasional errant pass might be something we will always have to live with, but getting more comfortable in the pocket and getting more familiar with NFL defenses will only help the low completion % and this will eventually come with more gametime experience.

More important than the completion %, is the fact that Tebow protects the ball. Just 4 interceptions and 1 lost fumble in 179 attempts is excellent for a 12 year vet, let alone a guy with 6 starts under his belt. Anytime you protect the ball, you are going to have a chance to win. So you can have your 65% completions, and I'll take the low turnover rate.

I'm not even going to dive into his clutch ability to bring a team back, as anyone who says he doesn't have the clutch gene is going to lose that argument before they even start it.

The only way you can measure Tebow's success is TD/INT ratio, Points scored, and most importantly W's.

This team has many holes, yet is 3-3 when TT starts...So continue to harp on the convetional QB attributes that have brainwashed you over the years. Tebow will just continue going about things the way he does, proving all the critics wrong along the way.

If you are looking for that cookie cutter QB, Tebow will never be that guy....But if you want a guy who's gonna win games for you and give your team 100% of what he has every Sunday, then Tebow might be your guy.

Dont you think its a little early to call Tebow a "viable option"? I mean jesus, the guy hasent even played a half a season yet but your crowning him. :coffee:

[vandammage13]

Isn't it a forgone conclusion that the spread is going to become more and more common in the NFL? It always works this way. High School, NCAA, then NFL... 10 years ago the spread was just gaining traction in the NCAA, 10 years later it's just gaining traction in the NFL. NE was ahead of their time and it's paid huge dividends, just like Bill Walsh was ahead of his time.

As Tebow becomes more and more comfortable throwing the football I would expect him to run less and less, it seems like a natural evolution of one's development. Elway was no different. He was clueless his rookie season, but he learned to throw more in the pocket and rely less on his legs to make plays.

This is what amuses me...You have some of these know-it-all purists making condescending remarks about us running a college offense.

I got news for ya...that passing offense that is all the rave right now that GB and NO runs came from college....

[vandammage13]

Dont you think its a little early to call Tebow a "viable option"? I mean jesus, the guy hasent even played a half a season yet but your crowning him. :coffee:

I qualified that statement by adding "or even improving."

...And don't get it twisted, so let me be clear...I'm not crowning the guy yet, I just see things worth trying to build around and don't see him as an automatic lost cause as some do.

He could fail for all I know, but I just don't think he should be written off just yet.

[Lancane]

Isn't it a forgone conclusion that the spread is going to become more and more common in the NFL? It always works this way. High School, NCAA, then NFL... 10 years ago the spread was just gaining traction in the NCAA, 10 years later it's just gaining traction in the NFL. NE was ahead of their time and it's paid huge dividends, just like Bill Walsh was ahead of his time.

As Tebow becomes more and more comfortable throwing the football I would expect him to run less and less, it seems like a natural evolution of one's development. Elway was no different. He was clueless his rookie season, but he learned to throw more in the pocket and rely less on his legs to make plays.

Yes, it has proven more common, and actually Pittsburgh used the spread long before New England, just for future reference. Right now several teams use aspects of different spread offenses or spread offenses as their backbone system or scheme. However, there is a vast difference BS in the Spread-Option say to the Pistol or Air-Erhardt, even the Weiss or Martz Spread offenses. However, we've seen the effects of efficient passing quarterbacks in a spread such as Brady, Rodgers, Warner, Roethlisberger and so on and those who've used a less conventional spread like Cleveland, Denver, Miami and so forth.

[rcsodak]

A QB has to hit open receivers consistently. Tebow isn't doing that. Will he learn to? It's possible. I understand that a QB usually doesn't take as bad of hits running the ball as he does in standing in the pocket, he's still taking twice as many hits. In order for the Broncos to rely on Tebow's style of play to win them a super bowl eventually, they'd have to bring in 2 more QB's with the same skill set, or change thier offense completely when Tebow goes out. That won't work long term in the NFL, and there aren't 2 more QB's out there like Tebow.

When was the last time a QB won the super bowl that couldn't pass consistently from the pocket? That's not my question, but one that Elway asked in a radio interview after Tebow's first start. Bringing in a pocket passer has advantages for many reasons. There's a whole lot more of them to choose from, the injury risk is a lot lower, and NFL rules are made to accomodate pocket passers.

I think Elway brings in a QB in the draft regardless of what Tebow does, and the long term plan of the Denver Broncos will built around a conventional pocket passer. If not one of the big guns in the first round like Luck, Barkley, or Jones, then a guy like Tannehill in the 2nd.
Tannehill? Lmao.

How about a proven qb that is used to winning! Boise has a guy that fits that, and he's already a Bronco.
Build a team with winners and you win, vs qb's that are used to losing.

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[vandammage13]

There is nothing that can be done in the NFL that is new or novel. It has all been done at some point.

How can the position be revolutionized when the league has already seen the likes of Elway, Young, Cunningham, McNabb, Vick, that old Bears QB, and a plethora of other QB's with similar skill sets to Tebow.

In fact, I loathe the revolution talk because all of those other QB's were much more polished passers mechanically and statistically. To insist one would revolutionize the position when that person may have fewer developed skills is laughable.

It would be the fact that he would be doing it despite not having those developed skills that would revolutionize it...so you kind of debunked your own point there.

If the Broncos were able to win with TT playing the way he does, it would in fact revolutionize the way people think about what kind of QB you need to win a SB by proving you don't need those certain skills to win it all.

[NightTerror218]

TT improved a lot Sunday. He was reading the defense better and he made some great throws. He did miss some wide open receivers but not as badly as before. I did not look horrible in first 3 quarters as before. He only took 2 sacks (so much for that holding on to the ball too long thing). He peaked in houston against the worst passing defense in decade, go figure. I know TT needs to improve as a passer to be a starting QB for any team, but he is improving.

Of course we only beat mediocre teams because we are a team with less talent then most. Our team has soooo many holes and we will not complete with top end teams until our entire team has better talent added. But if Tebow keeps improving his reads and completions then we might be set at QB. I wont jump on his band wagon until his in consistently over 50% passing and not making stupid mistakes in his reads and missing WR by a mile. If he barely misses some WR by a yard or two on deep passes once or twice a game I am fine with that. But it is still pretty lame to write him off as a bust yet. With having a .500 win-lose record.

[NightTerror218]

Tannehill? Lmao.

How about a proven qb that is used to winning! Boise has a guy that fits that, and he's already a Bronco.
Build a team with winners and you win, vs qb's that are used to losing.

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If you are going to build a team around "winners" then Tebow would fit that bill. I though using college achievements were useless when comparing to how they would do in the NFL.

[jhildebrand]

It would be the fact that he would be doing it despite not having those developed skills that would revolutionize it...so you kind of debunked your own point there.

If the Broncos were able to win with TT playing the way he does, it would in fact revolutionize the way people think about what kind of QB you need to win a SB by proving you don't need those certain skills to win it all.

Revolutionize means it hasn't been done before. What exactly will Tebow do that the league hasn't already seen? :confused:

[Fullback32]

Tannehill? Lmao.

Gotta agree with that sentiment. I have forgiven Von Miller for having been an Aggie, but too many on one team is bad juju. Two is too many. :D

[catfish]

Yes, it has proven more common, and actually Pittsburgh used the spread long before New England, just for future reference. Right now several teams use aspects of different spread offenses or spread offenses as their backbone system or scheme. However, there is a vast difference BS in the Spread-Option say to the Pistol or Air-Erhardt, even the Weiss or Martz Spread offenses. However, we've seen the effects of efficient passing quarterbacks in a spread such as Brady, Rodgers, Warner, Roethlisberger and so on and those who've used a less conventional spread like Cleveland, Denver, Miami and so forth.

I actually think a lot of people are thinking that the spread is similar to the spread option. They are similar only in how the recievers line up...otherwise completely different

[Ravage!!!]

This is debatable at best. Under McDaniels, Tebow didn't receive any instruction or work once the season began. That has been made abundantly clear.

He also was the NFL's biggest victim of the lockout. One could argue he had 3 weeks of instruction last year and 3 this year.



The center exchange has improved immensely :noidea:

:lol:

It's exaggerated how "little" tebow got work..... and please tell me how Tebow is the NFL's biggest victim? This just sounds like another excuse. How was he worse off then EVERY rookie that was drafted? Yet.... three in the NFL are doing VERY VERY well. Why? Is that?

I keep hearing that Tebow was a project and that he should have sat for a couple years to "learn." But it seems, that when he sits, everyone wants to blame the coaching staff for not taking time out of their schedule to work Tebow in. Then, when he DOES play, we get the "well he's just a rookie anyway since he didn't play." :confused:

[G_Money]

If you think that Tebow has SUCh a unique skillset that he can not, or SHOULD not, be compared to other NFL QBs..... then I just have to say that you are sadly mistaken. Its this insistence of putting Tebow on some higher pedestal, believing that he is somehow "different" than ANYONE else we've ever seen, that brings on the excuse after excuse.... and then the attack after attack.

Tebow will be, and SHOULD be, compared to every other NFL QB. Thats the position he plays, and there has been a VERY distinct set of skills that translates to success. Please STOP thinking that Tebow is going to "change" the QB position. He's not.

I don't have a problem with comparing him to QBs of his type and/or at his number of games played at all.

There are scrambling QBs and there are pocket QBs. Tim's obviously a scrambler. We need to teach him to be a pocket QB. That's doable. Steve Young learned, as did McNair, Cunningham, even Slash to some extent.

Tim has to improve his accuracy, his decision-making, his footwork...

He's got work to do.

Brees was so bad 3 years after he was drafted (67.5 QB rating, more INTs than TDs, sub-60% completion rate) that the Chargers took another QB with the first pick in the draft.

Eli Manning was a 48% passer his first year (9 games and 7 starts, or about what Tebow has amassed) and 52% his second year.

Mark Sanchez was under 55% competions each of his first 2 years, and that's WITH them asking him to do absolutely nothing in the pocket and take zero risks. He threw more INTs than TDs those first 2 years combined.

Steve McNair ran all over the place his first couple years, like Tebow, didn't start full time til year THREE, THEN completed just 52% of his passes.

I'm very confused that the same people that say Tebow has had bad QB coaching and does many things wrong are the same people who won't give him ANY time to get better. :confused:

I agree: Timmy does MANY things wrong. He's not gonna be All-Pro next year either.

We either need to watch for growth and be patient or throw him overboard and go a different direction. I'd be fine waiting it out with Tebow and fixing the rest of the team while we see if he CAN improve enough to be a pocket QB who is extraordinarily dangerous in the run game. I still expect to go in a different direction.

I just hope for the next guy's sake that 6 games into his career he's not getting crucified for failing to match the numbers of Brees, Rodgers, the Mannings, Brady, etc in their championship years.

~G

[Ravage!!!]

We'll see Rav...TT won on Sunday running something that hasn't been tried in the NFL.

Time will tell if defenses can stop it (and maybe they will), but if they don't then it would in fact revolutionize the position.

He's not going to "revolutionize" the position :lol:

People keep wanting to say that the Oakland game was a "team" win, but for some reason want to give the Miami win credit to Tebow.

Miami win had a special teams ONSIDE KICK recovery, and then a defensive forced fumble in OT. They didn't even want Tebow throwing the ball in OT, forcing the kicker to make a 50+ FG attempt to win the game.

If you don't see that the "spread option" is something that can and WILL be stopped, and then we will be forced to have Tebow throw to win games, you are being blind and delusional. There is not a play that Tebow ran that the NFL hasn't "Seen" before. There is NOTHING bout our offense that is "revolutionary." Tebow is NOT "revolutionary." Its this kind of extreme exaggeration that has gotten Tebow so much negative attention to begin with.

[Ravage!!!]

Tannehill? Lmao.

How about a proven qb that is used to winning! Boise has a guy that fits that, and he's already a Bronco.
Build a team with winners and you win, vs qb's that are used to losing.

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How many college national champions have won a super bowl as the starting QB?

[NorCalBronco7]

I qualified that statement by adding "or even improving."

...And don't get it twisted, so let me be clear...I'm not crowning the guy yet, I just see things worth trying to build around and don't see him as an automatic lost cause as some do.

He could fail for all I know, but I just don't think he should be written off just yet.

What a bunch of BS. Your sold on Tebow and couldnt be more happy hes the Broncos starting Qb. Dont start backing up now.

So continue to harp on the convetional QB attributes that have brainwashed you over the years. Tebow will just continue going about things the way he does, proving all the critics wrong along the way.

LMAO brainwashed? Did you just start watching the NFL yesterday? That is such a ridiculous statement to make. Qbs have, and always will, win throwing the ball. Its laughable how you can manage to defend Tebow amoungst standard Qb qualifications......by simply calling him different. Tebow has unique skills for his position, but that doesnt gift him the luxury of not executing the most fundamental aspect of a Qb.

The fact is, you do get it. The NFL, the quarterback position, NFL offenses....all that.

[catfish]

He's not going to "revolutionize" the position :lol:

People keep wanting to say that the Oakland game was a "team" win, but for some reason want to give the Miami win credit to Tebow.

Miami win had a special teams ONSIDE KICK recovery, and then a defensive forced fumble in OT. They didn't even want Tebow throwing the ball in OT, forcing the kicker to make a 50+ FG attempt to win the game.

If you don't see that the "spread option" is something that can and WILL be stopped, and then we will be forced to have Tebow throw to win games, you are being blind and delusional. There is not a play that Tebow ran that the NFL hasn't "Seen" before. There is NOTHING bout our offense that is "revolutionary." Tebow is NOT "revolutionary." Its this kind of extreme exaggeration that has gotten Tebow so much negative attention to begin with.

as a Tebow fan I don't think revolutionize is the right word. IF(big if) he is able to develop his passing skills I think his running skills will make him a terror to defend and I think his size will make him hold up better that say Vick. But revolution, nah, I see him falling into a scheme like carolinas where they throw a wrinkle in every once in a while, but I wouldn't call what they are doing a revolution

[vandammage13]

Revolutionize means it hasn't been done before. What exactly will Tebow do that the league hasn't already seen? :confused:

The title of revolutionizing would be contingent on him winning, of course...

But if the Broncos went on to win SB's by running the Zone Read (again not saying they will, but merely "IF" for the sake of argument) it would certainly be something that has never been done before, thus meeting your criteria for "Revolutionize."

[claymore]

Hopefully Tebow brings his trade value back up so we can trade him in the offseason. I dont want to reinvent the position. I just want a bad ass QB. Hopefully one that is somwhat mobile, and very lethal with his arm and intelligence.

[BroncoNut]

Hopefully Tebow brings his trade value back up so we can trade him in the offseason. I dont want to reinvent the position. I just want a bad ass QB. Hopefully one that is somwhat mobile, and very lethal with his arm and intelligence.

Jay Cutler.

[claymore]

Jay Cutler.

Love that Emo SOB.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

What does it matter if any of us on here, or for that matter, if any Broncos' fan gets it, or does not get it - decisions are ONLY made within Dove Valley.

[claymore]

What does it matter if any of us on here, or for that matter, if any Broncos' fan gets it, or does not get it - decisions are ONLY made within Dove Valley.

Us humans will never understand the genius that is TIM TEBOW. Bumblebee's cant fly... But they doo. Tebow cant throw, but he does.

Its magic, Like magnets.

[Ravage!!!]

as a Tebow fan I don't think revolutionize is the right word. IF(big if) he is able to develop his passing skills I think his running skills will make him a terror to defend and I think his size will make him hold up better that say Vick. But revolution, nah, I see him falling into a scheme like carolinas where they throw a wrinkle in every once in a while, but I wouldn't call what they are doing a revolution

Absolutely. If he could not only pass, but READ a defense and have some pocket presence, of course his running skills would make him that much more of a threat. But the absolute best QBs in the NFL are better PASSERS first. Hell, the top in the NFL are barely runners at all. So although mobility is great, it's only great if you can pass the ball well to start.

[NorCalBronco7]

The title of revolutionizing would be contingent on him winning, of course...

But if the Broncos went on to win SB's by running the Zone Read (again not saying they will, but merely "IF" for the sake of argument) it would certainly be something that has never been done before, thus meeting your criteria for "Revolutionize."

If you honestly believe teams like Pittsburg, Baltimore, NYJ....teams with legit defenses will destroy the spread option, then your head is so far in the clouds that you cant have a conversation in reality.

You start a thread calling out the Tebow doubters that dont "get it" and defend that position by saying essentially "if" this and "if" that.......convincing!

[G_Money]

Hopefully Tebow brings his trade value back up so we can trade him in the offseason. I dont want to reinvent the position. I just want a bad ass QB. Hopefully one that is somwhat mobile, and very lethal with his arm and intelligence.

If, OTOH, we get the next Brady Quinn/Jimmy Clausen/Mark Sanchez/Matt Leinhart/Vince Young/Brian Brohm/JaMarcus/John Beck/WHOEVER...

Then 3 years from now we're still wishing on a star for a badass QB. Believing Tebow will never be a badass QB does not mean we'll get one who IS in this draft.

We can hope that Xanders doesn't screw it up, I guess. The rest of Tebow's games this season should be most instructive.

~G

[Fullback32]

Love that Emo SOB.

He played really well in the Bears-Philly game. Oh, what could have been. Emo...LOL!

[vandammage13]

If you honestly believe teams like Pittsburg, Baltimore, NYJ....teams with legit defenses will destroy the spread option, then your head is so far in the clouds that you cant have a conversation in reality.

You start a thread calling out the Tebow doubters that dont "get it" and defend that position by saying essentially "if" this and "if" that.......convincing!

The revolutionary topic was totally separate from the main thread topic....

The point I was making on "Revolutionary" was, by my own admission, purely hypothetical, but the point I made in the OP was not.

Sorry if you cannot comprehend the difference...Threads do go offtopic from time to time NorCal...

[claymore]

If, OTOH, we get the next Brady Quinn/Jimmy Clausen/Mark Sanchez/Matt Leinhart/Vince Young/Brian Brohm/JaMarcus/John Beck/WHOEVER...

Then 3 years from now we're still wishing on a star for a badass QB. Believing Tebow will never be a badass QB does not mean we'll get one who IS in this draft.

We can hope that Xanders doesn't screw it up, I guess. The rest of Tebow's games this season should be most instructive.

~G

I believe in miracles ~G.

[BroncoNut]

Love that Emo SOB.

He's a good qb/ I wish he would sign up with us.

[Ravage!!!]

He's a good qb/ I wish he would sign up with us.

I just wish Denver would have thought ahead and drafted a QB with his skillset.

[claymore]

He's a good qb/ I wish he would sign up with us.

I dont want him anymore. He's taineted with Bear stank. I want a virgin. not a bear lovin mud shark.

[BroncoNut]

I just wish Denver would have thought ahead and drafted a QB with his skillset.
He was a great [pick. Josh was the reason he hated Denver.

[vandammage13]

I dont want him anymore. He's taineted with Bear stank. I want a virgin. not a bear lovin mud shark.

I've heard our current starting QB is a virgin if that's what you want.

[G_Money]

I believe in miracles ~G.

Then shouldn't you believe Tim can be a legit NFL QB? :lol:

~G

[BroncoNut]

What does it matter if any of us on here, or for that matter, if any Broncos' fan gets it, or does not get it - decisions are ONLY made within Dove Valley.

we don't know alot of things, you and I Carol. That's why people treat us different

[catfish]

Absolutely. If he could not only pass, but READ a defense and have some pocket presence, of course his running skills would make him that much more of a threat. But the absolute best QBs in the NFL are better PASSERS first. Hell, the top in the NFL are barely runners at all. So although mobility is great, it's only great if you can pass the ball well to start.

I agree, I lumped throwing, reading the coverage and pockets presence under passing skills

[BroncoNut]

I dont want him anymore. He's taineted with Bear stank. I want a virgin. not a bear lovin mud shark.

trailor trash/holes in the underwear poetry right there folks

[BigDaddyBronco]

He was a great [pick. Josh was the reason he hated Denver.

He was a diabetic drunk, I'm glad he is gone.

[BroncoNut]

He was a diabetic drunk, I'm glad he is gone.

you are an idiot

[rcsodak]

Those are very skewed statistics that take into account 7th round picks and UDFAs who stick onto rosters. If you look at the average careers of first round picks, numbers are much higher.

Yep. PKirwin last spring dug up the most recent numbers. Iirc, its like 4.5yrs for players with 6.5yrs for 1st rd picks.

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[Northman]

http://ilovespeling.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/dont-worry-maam-im-from-the-internet-tron.jpg

[NorCalBronco7]

The revolutionary topic was totally separate from the main thread topic....

The point I was making on "Revolutionary" was, by my own admission, purely hypothetical, but the point I made in the OP was not.

Sorry if you cannot comprehend the difference...Threads do go offtopic from time to time NorCal...

What difference? Both arguments are groundless what ifs.

"Obviously, we would all like to see that completion % improve, and in time, it certainly will as Tebow gains experience in reading defenses and developing his pocket awareness."

Maybe Tebow improves, maybe he doesnt. Who knows? But your saying "all he needs is experience guys, and he'll be a better passer". The problem is thats often not the case. And guess what, passing is THE BIGGEST ISSUE people have with Tebow, yet seem to just gloss over the issue with the adage that time fixes everything. Thats baseless and not very convincing.

And to call a player after 6 games winner/clutch is a whole other story.....

[vandammage13]

What difference? Both arguments are groundless what ifs.

"Obviously, we would all like to see that completion % improve, and in time, it certainly will as Tebow gains experience in reading defenses and developing his pocket awareness."

Maybe Tebow improves, maybe he doesnt. Who knows? But your saying "all he needs is experience guys, and he'll be a better passer". The problem is thats often not the case. And guess what, passing is THE BIGGEST ISSUE people have with Tebow, yet seem to just gloss over the issue with the adage that time fixes everything. Thats baseless and not very convincing.

And to call a player after 6 games winner/clutch is a whole other story.....

So a 17 point comeback, a 15 point comeback, and a 10 point comeback in just six games...Nearly another 16 point comeback when he replaced Orton against SD...Even #7 never came back from a deficit that large. That is a fact.

Seems like you've already made up your mind on him anyway so its a useless discussion.

[jhildebrand]

It's exaggerated how "little" tebow got work.....

How so? :confused: Much was made of it last year when Orton went down and Simms had no work. Elway has pointed to the McDaniels staff not having worked with Tebow. I don't see how that could be an exaggeration in the least.



and please tell me how Tebow is the NFL's biggest victim? This just sounds like another excuse. How was he worse off then EVERY rookie that was drafted? Yet.... three in the NFL are doing VERY VERY well. Why? Is that?

How many of those three had a divided organization as to who would start? :confused: How many got 0 reps with the #1's? :confused:

Cinci ran with Dalton. Carolina split time between Cam and Claussen. But Cam got plenty of time in the PS and PS games with the #1s. Jax got rid of the division by moving Garrard out 10 days before the start of the season.

T2 had 0 time but was the one who needed it the MOST. I am not the only one who has said tebow lost the most due to the lockout.



I keep hearing that Tebow was a project and that he should have sat for a couple years to "learn." But it seems, that when he sits, everyone wants to blame the coaching staff for not taking time out of their schedule to work Tebow in. Then, when he DOES play, we get the "well he's just a rookie anyway since he didn't play." :confused:

We've heard it all that's for sure! I am not one of them. I have been consistent on T2 ever since I came around on the kid.

[jhildebrand]

We can hope that Xanders doesn't screw it up, I guess.

There isn't enough hope in the world for that. Iran and Israel will become great allies before that could happen.

[Juriga72]

I just want a win this week.... THATS what matters

[Denver Native (Carol)]

So a 17 point comeback, a 15 point comeback, and a 10 point comeback in just six games...Nearly another 16 point comeback when he replaced Orton against SD...Even #7 never came back from a deficit that large. That is a fact.

Seems like you've already made up your mind on him anyway so its a useless discussion.

Not sure where you are getting your facts - HOWEVER, in regards to #7 never coming back from a deficit as large as TT did:


5. December 11, 1983 against the Baltimore Colts: Denver trailed 19-0 going into the fourth quarter. This was his first fourth quarter comeback and is one to go down in sporting legend and folklore. Elway threw three fourth quarter touchdowns, the last one to Gerald Willhite to give the Broncos the 21-19 victory.

http://www.20yardline.com/denver-broncos-articles/current/john-elway.html

[vandammage13]

Not sure where you are getting your facts - HOWEVER, in regards to #7 never coming back from a deficit as large as TT did:



http://www.20yardline.com/denver-broncos-articles/current/john-elway.html

Sorry...I wasn't specific...

I was referring to the 15 point comeback against Miami with the amount of time left...my bad.

[TT15Superman]

When was the last time a QB won the super bowl that couldn't pass consistently from the pocket? That's not my question, but one that Elway asked in a radio interview after Tebow's first start. Just because it HASN'T been done doesn't mean it CAN'T be done or WON'T. There have only been 45 of them, and a lot have been before the advent of the spread option.

I'm sure that most college football national champions are pocket QB based offenses, too, but that's not 100% of them. Florida won it in 2006 and (more so in) 2008 with the spread option.

As for Timmy's W-L record, I don't know if 3-3 is a large enough sample. Obviously, 3 seasons (heck, 2 seasons) worth of games will give us a truer measure of whether he can win in the NFL on a consistent basis once defenses learn all his tendencies. Obviously, he will need to evolve as well ... throwing in more pump fakes, run fakes, etc....heck, throwing well in general.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Sorry...I wasn't specific...

I was referring to the 15 point comeback against Miami with the amount of time left...my bad.

For those who watched the game, if the onside kick did not go the Broncos way, if DJ had not caused a fumble, the Broncos would not have had the chance to come back. It was a TEAM comeback.

Here are all of #7's combacks:

http://www.profootballhof.com/history/release.aspx?release_id=1209

[vandammage13]

For those who watched the game, if the onside kick did not go the Broncos way, if DJ had not caused a fumble, the Broncos would not have had the chance to come back. It was a TEAM comeback.

Here are all of #7's combacks:

http://www.profootballhof.com/history/release.aspx?release_id=1209

Im sure all of #7's were just him...

[weazel]

I still dont get it

[Rick]

A QB, no matter his style of play, will still always be judged on whether he can complete a pass...because at some point no matter what a QB will find him self in a position where he HAS to complete a pass.

I do believe Tebow can improve and I really hope he does.

Personally I would think Fox and his style of offense should love Tebow If Tim can get a little better at passing.

Fox loves to run it down your throat. If Tebow gets "good enough" at passing and next year Fox brings in another bruiser RB then all day long he could be pounding it with the 2 RBs and Tebow for a awesome 3 headed running back committee.

This would do wonders for keeping the defense fresh and off the field.

Just seems to me this would suit Fox in every way.

[dunk7]

For those who watched the game, if the onside kick did not go the Broncos way, if DJ had not caused a fumble, the Broncos would not have had the chance to come back. It was a TEAM comeback.

Here are all of #7's combacks:

http://www.profootballhof.com/history/release.aspx?release_id=1209

Not to mention the Fells catch and the fact that Miami was winless at the time.

[dunk7]

A QB, no matter his style of play, will still always be judged on whether he can complete a pass...because at some point no matter what a QB will find him self in a position where he HAS to complete a pass.

I do believe Tebow can improve and I really hope he does.

Personally I would think Fox and his style of offense should love Tebow If Tim can get a little better at passing.


I'd be happy if he could throw spirals by the end of the year.

[weazel]

Im sure all of #7's were just him...

as long as you get it

[dunk7]

Tebowners, let's look at it a different way...how many minutes has Tebow played WELL in a game. Sure, he's had to comeback in every game but that doesn't bode well for the future. Basically you can throw out every first half, throw out the entire Detroit game and 55 minutes of the Miami:

BY HALF CMP ATT YDS CMP% AVG LNG TD INT SACK RAT ATT YDS AVG LNG TD
1ST HALF 13 34 109 38.2 3.21 27 1 0 5 57.1 17 102 6.0 32 0
2ND HALF 32 63 427 50.8 6.78 42 5 1 9 92.5 21 175 8.3 28 1

[Northman]

What difference? Both arguments are groundless what ifs.

"Obviously, we would all like to see that completion % improve, and in time, it certainly will as Tebow gains experience in reading defenses and developing his pocket awareness."

Maybe Tebow improves, maybe he doesnt. Who knows? But your saying "all he needs is experience guys, and he'll be a better passer". The problem is thats often not the case. And guess what, passing is THE BIGGEST ISSUE people have with Tebow, yet seem to just gloss over the issue with the adage that time fixes everything. Thats baseless and not very convincing.

And to call a player after 6 games winner/clutch is a whole other story.....


Exactly.

Having Van post a thread like this is no different than those in the media and in the fanbase who already "write him off" just on the other side of the spectrum. How bout we just let it play out first before annointing him one way or the other?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Im sure all of #7's were just him...

Didn't say they were - you can take the time and read on every one of them. However, you gave TT total credit for the comebacks when he was on the field.
DAMN - for those who watched #7 - it does no good for anyone to come on here and try to compare TT at this time, to #7, or try to make it look like TT is already better than #7, and WHY even the point of trying to do that???????

[Juriga72]

Didn't say they were - you can take the time and read on every one of them. However, you gave TT total credit for the comebacks when he was on the field.
DAMN - for those who watched #7 - it does no good for anyone to come on here and try to compare TT at this time, to #7, or try to make it look like TT is already better than #7, and WHY even the point of trying to do that???????

Carol...
In case you missed the better parts of the last three years... We suck. ALL of a sudden our crappy throwing Qb WINS games.

Get it?

[weazel]

to be fair... we beat miami and oakland

lets not start giving each other sloppy kisses just yet

[vandammage13]

Didn't say they were - you can take the time and read on every one of them. However, you gave TT total credit for the comebacks when he was on the field.
DAMN - for those who watched #7 - it does no good for anyone to come on here and try to compare TT at this time, to #7, or try to make it look like TT is already better than #7, and WHY even the point of trying to do that???????

I actually checked out the site...Pretty interesting, so thanks for the link.

QB's get credited for 4th quarter comebacks. Nobody keeps numbers on how many 4th quarter comebacks a RB or RT have....That's not a stat I came up with, just a common way QB's are judged.

[Ravage!!!]

How so? :confused: Much was made of it last year when Orton went down and Simms had no work. Elway has pointed to the McDaniels staff not having worked with Tebow. I don't see how that could be an exaggeration in the least.
Its exaggerated because its exaggerated. We like to believe we know exactly how much time was spent with what, and how much time was spent with whom, but we don't. You know very well that I'm not a McD apologist, but this "he got ZERO time" blah blah.... is just another way to make yet ANOTHER excuse.



How many of those three had a divided organization as to who would start? :confused: How many got 0 reps with the #1's? :confused:
That means DIDDLY squat. ZERO.. zilch.. it means NOTHING. Despite you trying to say THIS is the only time Tebow had to work with anyone, thats wrong. He had time to LEARN the entire LAST offseason, season, and THIS offseason. Whether you want to blame the "pre-seasong" games working with the first team (which I find to be ridiculous) or not, it doesn't take away from the fact that Tebow has PROFESSIONAL coaching available to him in both training, AND in film study. Seriously Jhil, trying to say that a rookie coming in off his very first year in the NFL with a holdout didn't hurt them MORE than Tebow, is embarrassing. Come on.


Cinci ran with Dalton. Carolina split time between Cam and Claussen. But Cam got plenty of time in the PS and PS games with the #1s. Jax got rid of the division by moving Garrard out 10 days before the start of the season.
Really jhil? This is what you are going with? These guys got time during pre-season games in this ONE offseason? What about all the time that the kid in Minnesota got? YOu believe that he got a lot of time behind McNabb?


T2 had 0 time but was the one who needed it the MOST. I am not the only one who has said tebow lost the most due to the lockout.
That says a TON about Tebow. If he is a second year pro, and a first round draft pick, yet he needed time the MOST over guys like Cam Newton and Ponder. Thats VERY telling in its own right, and it explains EXACTLY what I'm talking about........ Tebow is BEHIND even the newest of rookies.

Cam even went out and hired himself a coach to work in the offseason. Perhaps Tebow should think about doing something like that instead of going to book signings and golf tournaments??

But you just made my point. You think Tebow NEEDED more time than even the newly drafted rookies because he's behind the newly drafted rookies. Telling. But it doesn't mean that the holdout hurt TEbow more than ANYONE else. It means that Tebow didn't learn anything in the offseason more than anyone else. It means that the new rookies came in more prepared, and more trained. It means that some people out there feel that Tebow needs more training than even the newest rookies. I just don't think Tebow is someone we shoudl be saying "golly, the holdout was EXTRA rough on poor Timmy."

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Carol...
In case you missed the better parts of the last three years... We suck. ALL of a sudden our crappy throwing Qb WINS games.

Get it?

I don't share your opinion - I want TT to succeed, and I don't consider him a crappy throwing QB. I just hate the #7/TT comparisons.

[Slick]

I don't understand why we can't be patient with Tebow. We aren't winning shit for a couple seasons anyway. Why does he have to be sitting in the pocket and throwing darts all over the field RIGHT NOW? Why can't we just give him at least the season, to see if he improves before taking a stand one way or another. Shame on me for rooting for the kid.

I remember when Elway came to Denver. He was certainly under the microscope in Denver, but not nearly as bad, nationally.

Why is Tim scrutinized so badly? What has he done to deserve the type of media attention he receives?

[NightTerror218]

What difference? Both arguments are groundless what ifs.

"Obviously, we would all like to see that completion % improve, and in time, it certainly will as Tebow gains experience in reading defenses and developing his pocket awareness."

Maybe Tebow improves, maybe he doesnt. Who knows? But your saying "all he needs is experience guys, and he'll be a better passer". The problem is thats often not the case. And guess what, passing is THE BIGGEST ISSUE people have with Tebow, yet seem to just gloss over the issue with the adage that time fixes everything. Thats baseless and not very convincing.

And to call a player after 6 games winner/clutch is a whole other story.....


But one this is that all most all QBs improve with experience. Some come in and just dont try and take the Money walk JaWalrus or they just cant handle the speed and fail very badly like some other busts.

But the fact that he is leading the team to some wins besides the fact he passes has not been very good does make a point. His is doing what he has to do to win. I would take as long as it means the SB that over a Philip Rivers who just cant quite make it to the SB. Rivers is great but he fails in the post season every time his team collapses and fails him and those around him. If i have to watch a rough passer but who will do what it takes to win I am fine with that.

As this season goes on we will get a better look at him and judge him. I still think people are pretty pathetic to writes him off right now. Nobody writes off a Qb after 1/3 of a season worth of play and especially one who is getting wins as a result.

1 point you cam make is overall he has below acceptable accuracy. You can also point out that he is 3-3 as a starter and he has played very well at some point during every game. He has thrown some very accurate balls along with some way off ones as well. TD drives in Miami game and 1st and last drives of Detroit game were accurate. TD passes in Raiders game. Another point can be made is that he does not turn the ball over very much at all.

[BroncoStud]

I don't understand why we can't be patient with Tebow. We aren't winning shit for a couple seasons anyway. Why does he have to be sitting in the pocket and throwing darts all over the field RIGHT NOW? Why can't we just give him at least the season, to see if he improves before taking a stand one way or another. Shame on me for rooting for the kid.

I remember when Elway came to Denver. He was certainly under the microscope in Denver, but not nearly as bad, nationally.

Why is Tim scrutinized so badly? What has he done to deserve the type of media attention he receives?

I agree with this 100%.

[NightTerror218]

I don't understand why we can't be patient with Tebow. We aren't winning shit for a couple seasons anyway. Why does he have to be sitting in the pocket and throwing darts all over the field RIGHT NOW? Why can't we just give him at least the season, to see if he improves before taking a stand one way or another. Shame on me for rooting for the kid.

I remember when Elway came to Denver. He was certainly under the microscope in Denver, but not nearly as bad, nationally.

Why is Tim scrutinized so badly? What has he done to deserve the type of media attention he receives?

Because people want to dislike him to get back at the blind followers. Its ridiculous really. People want him passing for 60%+ with TD passes and no turnovers right away. They are blind unrealistic dreams they have for a young QB.

[Northman]

Because people want to dislike him to get back at the blind followers. Its ridiculous really. People want him passing for 60%+ with TD passes and no turnovers right away. They are blind unrealistic dreams they have for a young QB.

Yet we have a thread starter claiming that Tebow is one of a kind and a certain guarantee? Hate to say it mate, there are blind people on both of those spectrums. Ill just keep my ass on the fence for now and wait to see what happens.

[vandammage13]

Yet we have a thread starter claiming that Tebow is one of a kind and a certain guarantee? Hate to say it mate, there are blind people on both of those spectrums. Ill just keep my ass on the fence for now and wait to see what happens.

Nowhere did i say he was a certain guarantee....Read the last line of the OP.

I do believe that he CAN be successful...I have no qualms in ackknowledging i could be wrong about this though.

[Juriga72]

I don't share your opinion - I want TT to succeed, and I don't consider him a crappy throwing QB. I just hate the #7/TT comparisons.

I myself think he's the worst throwing QB in the NFl...

BUT we seem to win games with him as opposed to losing with Kyle Orton throwing for 400 yards/game....

i'll take each and every win he gets us.........:laugh:

[Dreadnought]

I don't understand why we can't be patient with Tebow. We aren't winning shit for a couple seasons anyway. Why does he have to be sitting in the pocket and throwing darts all over the field RIGHT NOW? Why can't we just give him at least the season, to see if he improves before taking a stand one way or another. Shame on me for rooting for the kid.

I remember when Elway came to Denver. He was certainly under the microscope in Denver, but not nearly as bad, nationally.

Why is Tim scrutinized so badly? What has he done to deserve the type of media attention he receives?

Slick = Voice of Reason :salute:

[Northman]

Nowhere did i say he was a certain guarantee....Read the last line of the OP.

I do believe that he CAN be successful...I have no qualms in ackknowledging i could be wrong about this though.

Fair enough, but it was this line that i have major issue with and sorry once i saw it i kind of stopped reading.


Newsflash...TEBOW IS NOT LIKE OTHER QB'S, therefore he cannot be measured in the same way we measure other QB's.

The fact is yes, he is like other QB's. I can go through a list of them that play in a similar manner than he does. Doesnt mean he will succeed or fail as the story isnt fully written on him yet but its this kind of stuff that the silly boy Jags was trying to sell about Tebow changing the position, etc.

The thing is, ive read a lot of your posts and i know your a smart guy so why you would actually believe this particular type of mantra is baffling to me. Tebow is not some super hybrid QB that is all of a sudden going to change the position forever. It hasnt happened in the last 40 years and isnt going to happen anytime soon.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I found the following interesting - from Doug Flutie, who was labeled an unorthodox QB.

From article:


For his Point After column on Denver Broncos quarterback Tim Tebow, senior writer Phil Taylor talked to another former Heisman Trophy winner who many experts believed would never be successful in the NFL, Doug Flutie. According to Flutie, the skepticism about unorthodox quarterbacks is just as strong as it was 25 years ago. Among the quotes Taylor collected from Flutie, in addition to those used in his column:

AND


"People say his throwing motion isn’t fundamentally sound. Well, Bernie Kosar threw sidearm. Dan Marino kind of pushed the ball. Randall Cunningham had an elongated delivery like Tebow’s. There’s more than one way to be a good quarterback. I wonder when NFL people are really going to open their minds to that.”

full article - http://insidesportsillustrated.com/2011/10/21/si%e2%80%99s-article-outtakes-additional-quotes-from-phil-taylor%e2%80%99s-interview-with-doug-flutie-on-tim-tebow/#more-1539

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Another interesting article - this one on Rivers, before he was drafted. I had no clue that he was considered an unorthodox QB, when entering the draft:

From article:


"The ball gets where it needs to go," said the NFC scout. "Does it matter how it gets there? It doesn't have to look right. It just has to be right. In the past, that used to bother me. But the more I'm around players like that, the more I'm convinced it's about production. And he produces."

The unorthodox throwing motion is something Rivers said he has had since he was a kid. His father, a high school coach, once theorized that perhaps it came from his trying to throw a regulation football as a 3- and 4-year old while hanging around his dad's practices.

Whatever the reason, or the cause, it works. So why change it? Why make him do something that isn't comfortable just for the sake of aesthetics?


full article - http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/7104541

[rcsodak]

Yes, we get it Lan, you're not a Tebow fan... But you've let this Tebow "thing" cloud your reasoning.

The Lions beat us 44-7 when they were far worse than this team and we were far better than our current roster. Stuff happens.

I'm a big Cutler fan but in 2008 we got blown out 3 or 4 times, including by the Raiders, AT HOME, and at SD when they beat us senseless, we also got destroyed by NE that year 41-7... So your "Cutler dueled with the best of them" argument has no merit.

This organization used several picks to trade up and acquire D. Thomas / T. Tebow. Why exactly would you not give either of them a chance? You seem fine starting D. Thomas as long as it takes but Tebow has actually contributed a lot to our wins in the past 2 seasons and you are done with him...

It's a ridiculous double-standard the dude faces. He has shown improvement, he's getting more comfortable, Denver is winning games they have no business winning. You want to bring in a statue like Landry Jones and groom him for 3 years so we can have the next Kyle Orton. No thanks.

Let's see what we have in the QB we're ALREADY invested in.

Every time you bag on Jones, you show you're blindly naive. :lol:

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[rcsodak]

At what point do you expect to see results and progression isn't enough?

2 years?
4 years?
6 years?
8 years?
10 years?

The NFL is all about timelines. No team is going to wait forever for a gu yto "figure it out". I'm not saying Tebow needs to show results next week, but he's been in the league for a year and a half now.
Well, playinng devils advocate.....look at alex smith.

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[NorCalBronco7]

So a 17 point comeback, a 15 point comeback, and a 10 point comeback in just six games...Nearly another 16 point comeback when he replaced Orton against SD...Even #7 never came back from a deficit that large. That is a fact.

Seems like you've already made up your mind on him anyway so its a useless discussion.

Sure, Tebows had a handful of great comebacks. I just dont think its right to call him "clutch" with such a limited body of work. That lable has to be earned, and to me it will take more than 3 games, more than a season, to be called that.

Ive made up my mind? Im pretty sure your the one who started a thread telling us how Tebow will be a better passer, clutch, and is a winner at 3-3.

[Cugel]

A QB, no matter his style of play, will still always be judged on whether he can complete a pass...because at some point no matter what a QB will find him self in a position where he HAS to complete a pass.

I do believe Tebow can improve and I really hope he does.

Personally I would think Fox and his style of offense should love Tebow If Tim can get a little better at passing.

Fox loves to run it down your throat. If Tebow gets "good enough" at passing and next year Fox brings in another bruiser RB then all day long he could be pounding it with the 2 RBs and Tebow for a awesome 3 headed running back committee.

This would do wonders for keeping the defense fresh and off the field.

Just seems to me this would suit Fox in every way.

Fox likes his RUNNING BACKS to run the ball, not his $9 million QB. There's a difference. Sure he wants to run the ball and Tebow can do that. But, he doesn't want his $9 million player sitting in the training room or his franchise QB washed up after 3-4 years because he's taking 250+ hits a season. :ranger:

[Cugel]

Well, playinng devils advocate.....look at alex smith.

Alex Smith was the #1 overall pick of the first round. He was supposed to develop into the next Peyton Manning. He's always been a pocket passing QB with some skills at that.

Tebow was a 2nd or 3rd round player who McMoron over-drafted when not one other NFL GM had him rated that high. And he's NEVER been any good at precision passing, even in college.

Elway & Fox have ZERO invested in Tebow. He either learns to be a pocket passing QB this season or he's gone by next April.

It looks to me like the Broncos have entered Tebow in the "Special Olympics" for a year ("Let's tailor the playbook to Timmy's 'special skills'") and given up the attempt to mold him into an NFL Franchise QB.

There are going to be lots of Teboners shocked and angry come draft day. That's all I can say. But, you can see this one coming a mile away. :ranger:

[Lancane]

I actually think a lot of people are thinking that the spread is similar to the spread option. They are similar only in how the recievers line up...otherwise completely different

That's exactly my point...thank you, people have a tendency to go "look at Rodgers in a spread-option...Tebow could do it" and then I just shake my head and wonder if people understand it's not the spread that's the problem, it's the option part of the equation that is.

Can somebody, anybody tell me why that idiot McCoy stepped away from using the Air-Erhardt in favor of the Spread-Option?

Tebow against Houston using the Air-Erhardt, 16 of 29 for 308 yards passing, 1 touchdown, 1 interception and a completion percentage of 55%.

Tebow against Oakland using the Spread-Option, 10 of 21 for 124 yards passing, 2 touchdowns, 0 interceptions and a completion percentage of 47.6%.

Actually, his numbers have drastically decreased in regards to the Spread-Option...why in the F' would we want to build that type of offense around anyone?

If McCoy had an ounce of common sense he'd go read 'Football for Dummies' a few times and make sure to study the damn thing extra hard and then go watch film and study the Pistol Offense that Pittsburgh utilizes, that's how you run a spread offense.

I freaking loath option offenses, they're gimmicky, dull and lethargic, they turn everyone on the offense into g'damn running backs and fullbacks, including the quarterback and the offensive line. Like I want to see a quarterback run all day or the fat ass lineman struggle to get across the field to block a wide receiver...what, are we trying to do, kill them?

I don't mind a good spread offense, they can be very effective and rack up a lot of yards and points, but only if used right...and for God's sake leave the option plays out of it.

[wayninja]

Sure, Tebows had a handful of great comebacks. I just dont think its right to call him "clutch" with such a limited body of work. That lable has to be earned, and to me it will take more than 3 games, more than a season, to be called that.

To be fair NorCal, doesn't a handful of comebacks with such a small body of work already say something? Or is it just an anomaly?

[Lancane]

Alex Smith was the #1 overall pick of the first round. He was supposed to develop into the next Peyton Manning. He's always been a pocket passing QB with some skills at that.

Tebow was a 2nd or 3rd round player who McMoron over-drafted when not one other NFL GM had him rated that high. And he's NEVER been any good at precision passing, even in college.

Elway & Fox have ZERO invested in Tebow. He either learns to be a pocket passing QB this season or he's gone by next April.

It looks to me like the Broncos have entered Tebow in the "Special Olympics" for a year ("Let's tailor the playbook to Timmy's 'special skills'") and given up the attempt to mold him into an NFL Franchise QB.

There are going to be lots of Teboners shocked and angry come draft day. That's all I can say. But, you can see this one coming a mile away. :ranger:

I've wondered that as well, if that Denver is quitting on Tebow by running an offense that's more to his speed sort-of-speak, in order to build trade value or simply to try and win with him so they don't have to return to using Orton or use Quinn unless absolutely necessary for the rest of the season.

Whether or not Tebow is here next year is debatable...but I like you believe Denver is going to draft a quarterback, depending on where we land in the draft and who we take is a whole other story. Jim Mora said the other day that "Fox didn't look pleased, even though the Broncos just beat their heated rivals." And the first thought that popped into my head was, 'Well yeah, he just cost the Broncos some draft positioning' - whether or not, that's why is arguable...but it was strange that, that was the first thing I thought when hearing that.

[Lancane]

To be fair NorCal, doesn't a handful of comebacks with such a small body of work already say something? Or is it just an anomaly?

I would say that Tebow is without question the very definition of 'clutch', I believe that's one of the few things most people agree about regarding him.

[Rick]

Fox likes his RUNNING BACKS to run the ball, not his $9 million QB. There's a difference. Sure he wants to run the ball and Tebow can do that. But, he doesn't want his $9 million player sitting in the training room or his franchise QB washed up after 3-4 years because he's taking 250+ hits a season. :ranger:

Again like many others have mentioned, could be just as likely of getting hurt standing in the pocket and getting blind sided and not protecting his body then he can running where he can see the guy. Brady missed an entire season as did Manning now. Would say those 2 are the quintessential pocket guys, seldom leave it, yet the franchise guy got lost for a year.

Can I have some coffee too? :ranger:

[Cugel]

I've wondered that as well, if that Denver is quitting on Tebow by running an offense that's more to his speed sort-of-speak, in order to build trade value or simply to try and win with him so they don't have to return to using Orton or use Quinn unless absolutely necessary for the rest of the season.

Whether or not Tebow is here next year is debatable...but I like you believe Denver is going to draft a quarterback, depending on where we land in the draft and who we take is a whole other story. Jim Mora said the other day that "Fox didn't look pleased, even though the Broncos just beat their heated rivals." And the first thought that popped into my head was, 'Well yeah, he just cost the Broncos some draft positioning' - whether or not, that's why is arguable...but it was strange that, that was the first thing I thought when hearing that.

When I'm in a cynical mood, I think that EFX have basically given up on Tebow, that Elway has already seen all he has to see, and that they are just stuck with him until next April, so they are making the best of it, by installing a Tebow friendly package they have no intention of committing to long term.

The more charitable explanation is that the "Tebow experiment" is still going on and that they are starting with plays they think Tebow will be comfortable with in order to build his confidence, and they are slowly going to expand the playbook and by the end of the year hopefully he can improve enough as a pocket passing QB that they can say "OK, Tim is our Franchise QB, at least through next season, so we can use our top 10 draft pick to get a DT or LB or CB instead of having to draft a QB."

They really have very little to lose by doing that after all. Either Tebow develops as a pocket passer or he doesn't. And they can't just throw him out there with the entire playbook like they did against the Chargers, Miami and Lions and see him humiliated and throwing 10 yards over the heads of his WRs like he did in those games.

They are paying him $9 million this year after all and would like to develop him if at all possible. It's just that he's shown not the slightest sign of developing so far. His passes remind me of Joe Kapp.

http://www.collegefootball.org/playerimages/90074_1.jpg

[jhildebrand]

Its exaggerated because its exaggerated. We like to believe we know exactly how much time was spent with what, and how much time was spent with whom, but we don't. You know very well that I'm not a McD apologist, but this "he got ZERO time" blah blah.... is just another way to make yet ANOTHER excuse.

So the different reporters at the post and on the FAN are just exaggerating this? :confused: Please!

You are too entrenched in your dislike of Tebow to even look at this with any objectivity Rav. This isn't my thought but reports straight from Pidgeon Valley from people who were and are around the team daily!



That means DIDDLY squat. ZERO.. zilch.. it means NOTHING. Despite you trying to say THIS is the only time Tebow had to work with anyone, thats wrong. He had time to LEARN the entire LAST offseason, season, and THIS offseason.

He did? :confused: He organized his own workouts with Lloyd, Gaffney and Royal early on. Then the player organized workouts began and the team was loyal to Orton.

I find it laughable that you think a QB, one that is essentially a rookie, needs no time with the #1's. :lol: And you call me out? :confused: Come on Rav! Get real! We have all heard from Cutler on through Orton just how much time a QB needs working with his wr's and te's to develop a rhythm with them. Now all of a sudden it means ZERO and ZILCH. :lol:


Do you honestly think Dalton didn't benefit spending all the time as the #1? You don't think Cam didn't benefit with his time with the #1s? You're dead wrong if you do. Cam went out of his way to work MORE with Steve Smith just to get that rhythm.



Whether you want to blame the "pre-seasong" games working with the first team (which I find to be ridiculous) or not, it doesn't take away from the fact that Tebow has PROFESSIONAL coaching available to him in both training, AND in film study.

Except during the lockout when he wasn't allowed to have ANY contact with the coaches or staff and DIDN'T have a playbook. That is the point...remember? That Tebow probably lost the most from the lockout.



Seriously Jhil, trying to say that a rookie coming in off his very first year in the NFL with a holdout didn't hurt them MORE than Tebow, is embarrassing. Come on.

Which holdout and rookie are you referring to? Last I checked Cam Newton has one win on a team that has more talent than this one. A team that didn't ship off their #1 WR when asked.

Last I checked, Cinci went all in with Dalton to the point they told Carson Palmer, a heisman trophy winner with 30,000 yards unders his belt in this league to pound sand. They put him in a position to succeed from day 1.



Really jhil? This is what you are going with? These guys got time during pre-season games in this ONE offseason? What about all the time that the kid in Minnesota got? YOu believe that he got a lot of time behind McNabb?

Well...in my defense...Tebow has seemed to progress from each week. The third quarter of the Oakland game saw some of his best passes. That would only support my argument. Just imagine if he had 4 consecutive weeks in the PS and the first 5 games of the season. He would be 9 weeks ahead of where he is now.



That says a TON about Tebow. If he is a second year pro, and a first round draft pick, yet he needed time the MOST over guys like Cam Newton and Ponder. Thats VERY telling in its own right, and it explains EXACTLY what I'm talking about........ Tebow is BEHIND even the newest of rookies.

Tebow had a new coaching staff and a change that the others didn't have. But let's pretend that has nothing to do with it :rolleyes:



Cam even went out and hired himself a coach to work in the offseason. Perhaps Tebow should think about doing something like that instead of going to book signings and golf tournaments??

But you just made my point. You think Tebow NEEDED more time than even the newly drafted rookies because he's behind the newly drafted rookies. Telling. But it doesn't mean that the holdout hurt TEbow more than ANYONE else. It means that Tebow didn't learn anything in the offseason more than anyone else. It means that the new rookies came in more prepared, and more trained. It means that some people out there feel that Tebow needs more training than even the newest rookies. I just don't think Tebow is someone we shoudl be saying "golly, the holdout was EXTRA rough on poor Timmy."

Well I guess the Post, the FAN, and Bill Williamson are just making excuses for Timmy :rolleyes:

Or they are objective enough to look at without the taint of dislike :noidea:

[SR]

Tim Tebow will never win when it matters in the NFL, period. Sorry...

[wayninja]

Tim Tebow will never win when it matters in the NFL, period. Sorry...

Yawn, way to stray from convention.

[rcsodak]

If you are going to build a team around "winners" then Tebow would fit that bill. I though using college achievements were useless when comparing to how they would do in the NFL.

Touche'.

Except he isnt a conventional qb, is he.

And call me when he beats a GOOD team by being a qb and not a rb. ;')
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[rcsodak]

How many college national champions have won a super bowl as the starting QB?

I said winning, rav, never mentioned NC winners, unless BSU has won some i missed.

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[rcsodak]

What a bunch of BS. Your sold on Tebow and couldnt be more happy hes the Broncos starting Qb. Dont start backing up now.

So continue to harp on the convetional QB attributes that have brainwashed you over the years. Tebow will just continue going about things the way he does, proving all the critics wrong along the way.

LMAO brainwashed? Did you just start watching the NFL yesterday? That is such a ridiculous statement to make. Qbs have, and always will, win throwing the ball. Its laughable how you can manage to defend Tebow amoungst standard Qb qualifications......by simply calling him different. Tebow has unique skills for his position, but that doesnt gift him the luxury of not executing the most fundamental aspect of a Qb.

The fact is, you do get it. The NFL, the quarterback position, NFL offenses....all that.
The last 2 SB's had both qb's throwing 40+ passes. Is TT able to do that? With swallowable completions?

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[jhildebrand]

Tim Tebow will never win when it matters in the NFL, period. Sorry...

Thanks, Merrill :wave:

[rcsodak]

A QB, no matter his style of play, will still always be judged on whether he can complete a pass...because at some point no matter what a QB will find him self in a position where he HAS to complete a pass.

I do believe Tebow can improve and I really hope he does.

Personally I would think Fox and his style of offense should love Tebow If Tim can get a little better at passing.

Fox loves to run it down your throat. If Tebow gets "good enough" at passing and next year Fox brings in another bruiser RB then all day long he could be pounding it with the 2 RBs and Tebow for a awesome 3 headed running back committee.

This would do wonders for keeping the defense fresh and off the field.

Just seems to me this would suit Fox in every way.
How about a great passing qb with TT as the RB?

There ya go.....

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[Elevation inc]

The last 2 SB's had both qb's throwing 40+ passes. Is TT able to do that? With swallowable completions?

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lol both those qb's had more than 6 starts to....more like 6 years worth of starts:lol:

[rcsodak]

Yet we have a thread starter claiming that Tebow is one of a kind and a certain guarantee? Hate to say it mate, there are blind people on both of those spectrums. Ill just keep my ass on the fence for now and wait to see what happens.

I heard you liked those poles.
;')

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[rcsodak]

Another interesting article - this one on Rivers, before he was drafted. I had no clue that he was considered an unorthodox QB, when entering the draft:

From article:



full article - http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/7104541

But hes accurate and one of the best at the long balls.

Big diff, imo. ;')

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[Elevation inc]

But hes accurate and one of the best at the long balls.

Big diff, imo. ;')

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lol except for this year he is quite off this year not sure why

[rcsodak]

I've wondered that as well, if that Denver is quitting on Tebow by running an offense that's more to his speed sort-of-speak, in order to build trade value or simply to try and win with him so they don't have to return to using Orton or use Quinn unless absolutely necessary for the rest of the season.

Whether or not Tebow is here next year is debatable...but I like you believe Denver is going to draft a quarterback, depending on where we land in the draft and who we take is a whole other story. Jim Mora said the other day that "Fox didn't look pleased, even though the Broncos just beat their heated rivals." And the first thought that popped into my head was, 'Well yeah, he just cost the Broncos some draft positioning' - whether or not, that's why is arguable...but it was strange that, that was the first thing I thought when hearing that.

Mora is anti TT. Might be reason #1?

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[rcsodak]

lol both those qb's had more than 6 starts to....more like 6 years worth of starts:lol:

So youre in the school of thought that thinks he can improve to that level?

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[rcsodak]

lol except for this year he is quite off this year not sure why
And we're loving it, yes?

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[Denver Native (Carol)]

But hes accurate and one of the best at the long balls.

Big diff, imo. ;')

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And he has been playing QB in the NFL since 2004, and became the starter, and still is, since 2006 - that is the big difference.

[rcsodak]

And he has been playing QB in the NFL since 2004, and became the starter, and still is, since 2006 - that is the big difference.
My point, carol, is he could throw spirals, ACCURATELY, from game 1. ;')

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[Elevation inc]

So youre in the school of thought that thinks he can improve to that level?

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Im in the school of thought that says we need more than 6 games as a starter to make that call properly.......of course he is raw most college qb's have horrible year 1 seasons.....and at times have looked just as bad throwing the ball.....

[Elevation inc]

And we're loving it, yes?

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hell yeah i expect a win now...lol

[Lancane]

Mora is anti TT. Might be reason #1?

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Mora has praised Tebow as well, every time an expert speaks out against Tebow they're haters, if they speak highly of him they're quality experts...see the irony? And really, have the detractors been wrong thus far?

But if someone points and says something that is not positive then they're ignorant, blind, hating wretches. And this in no way is pointed at you RC, it's just an observation that people are too quick to use the word hate simply because someone's opinion differs from their own. Last week Fox said some not so kind things, suddenly he's a S.O.B, he compliments Tebow this week and there is talk of him deciding to maybe run a Spread-Option for Tebow's sake and he's a F'n national hero. The same with Elway's remarks, one minute he's a Tebow supporter, the next a hater who doesn't know a damn thing, is jealous of Tebow or is part of some wild, liberal, anti-Christian conspiracy.

There comes a time when the hypocrisy regarding an issue has become a little too much.

Again this isn't directed towards you, it's simply an open observation with regards to this situation.

As to your question, no I don't believe he hates Tebow, I believe his mind is made up and unless proven wrong it reaffirms that for him.

[catfish]

Mora has praised Tebow as well, every time an expert speaks out against Tebow they're haters, if they speak highly of him they're quality experts...see the irony? And really, have the detractors been wrong thus far?

But if someone points and says something that is not positive then they're ignorant, blind, hating wretches. And this in no way is pointed at you RC, it's just an observation that people are too quick to use the word hate simply because someone's opinion differs from their own. Last week Fox said some not so kind things, suddenly he's a S.O.B, he compliments Tebow this week and there is talk of him deciding to maybe run a Spread-Option for Tebow's sake and he's a F'n national hero. The same with Elway's remarks, one minute he's a Tebow supporter, the next a hater who doesn't know a damn thing, is jealous of Tebow or is part of some wild, liberal, anti-Christian conspiracy.

There comes a time when the hypocrisy regarding an issue has become a little too much.

Again this isn't directed towards you, it's simply an open observation with regards to this situation.

As to your question, no I don't believe he hates Tebow, I believe his mind is made up and unless proven wrong it reaffirms that for him.

There are only a few national talking heads that I would classify haters(Hoge). To take it in a different direction a few questions,passing skills aside do you think there is another QB on this squad that gives the team a better chance to win right now?(asking an honest question not trying to be snarky) Keeping in mind Fox has stated he wants a run first offense and he has a history of basically a 50:50 run/pass split what would you think Tebow would need to do to change Fox's mind about a trade(not whether he can do it)

[TXBRONC]

Mora has praised Tebow as well, every time an expert speaks out against Tebow they're haters, if they speak highly of him they're quality experts...see the irony? And really, have the detractors been wrong thus far?

But if someone points and says something that is not positive then they're ignorant, blind, hating wretches. And this in no way is pointed at you RC, it's just an observation that people are too quick to use the word hate simply because someone's opinion differs from their own. Last week Fox said some not so kind things, suddenly he's a S.O.B, he compliments Tebow this week and there is talk of him deciding to maybe run a Spread-Option for Tebow's sake and he's a F'n national hero. The same with Elway's remarks, one minute he's a Tebow supporter, the next a hater who doesn't know a damn thing, is jealous of Tebow or is part of some wild, liberal, anti-Christian conspiracy.

There comes a time when the hypocrisy regarding an issue has become a little too much.

Again this isn't directed towards you, it's simply an open observation with regards to this situation.

As to your question, no I don't believe he hates Tebow, I believe his mind is made up and unless proven wrong it reaffirms that for him.

There are critics who have valid points then there guys like Merril Hoge who imo are just down right vicious.

[Dreadnought]

There are only a few national talking heads that I would classify haters(Hoge). To take it in a different direction a few questions,passing skills aside do you think there is another QB on this squad that gives the team a better chance to win right now?(asking an honest question not trying to be snarky) Keeping in mind Fox has stated he wants a run first offense and he has a history of basically a 50:50 run/pass split what would you think Tebow would need to do to change Fox's mind about a trade(not whether he can do it)

I think its a fair question. TT needs to show improvement in most aspects of the passing game (aside from ball security, which he is so far excelling in - limited sample and all). Ray Charles could see that. I think he is doing so, but this must continue. I think if he's throwing consistently at @ 55% and 7.0 YPA by seasons end he's solid here, especially if we can finish in the 7-9 or 8-8 kind of range. If he's not, well, all bets are off. Fox is showing flexibility and creativity, but if anyone thinks he is secretly longing to emulate the "Greatest Show on Turf" in Denver they should rethink that. That has never been a John Fox goal in his career. We are number 5 in the NFL in rushing yards per game, and well over 5 yards per carry. I suspect that suits Fox just fine.

[claymore]

If Tebow gets us to 8-8 he deserves to get a full 2 more years to see if he is the man.

[slim]

If Tebow gets us to 8-8 he deserves to get a full 2 more years to see if he is the man.

I don't care about the record. As long as he continues to improve each week, he needs to be given another year.

If he is still playing like this the last week of the season, then you have to move on.

[Lancane]

There are only a few national talking heads that I would classify haters(Hoge). To take it in a different direction a few questions,passing skills aside do you think there is another QB on this squad that gives the team a better chance to win right now?(asking an honest question not trying to be snarky) Keeping in mind Fox has stated he wants a run first offense and he has a history of basically a 50:50 run/pass split what would you think Tebow would need to do to change Fox's mind about a trade(not whether he can do it)

That's a difficult question... In all honesty, I'd have to first ask you, is Tebow a quarterback? (Think about it before you answer, because it's a philosophical question). As to my opinion, I would argue that Kyle Orton and Brady Quinn are both better quarterbacks, just not better football players...and I would prefer a football player who is a better quarterback. And yet, it might be hard to find someone who is a better option in the eyes of those who focus on one thing or another, such as having a drive to succeed, being clutch, a will to improve. All qualities I would love to see a quarterback have, as whether we have a quarterback with those qualities is the overall debate...and which I believe we do not. So is there a better option? Yes and No, there are better quarterbacks on the roster, neither of which are good football players. But in all honesty I'd rather watch them because they know how to play the position.

As to the other, yes, Fox wants a run first team that is about 50/50 between the rushing and passing attack, against Oakland it was closer to 70/30 in favor of the run so it was far from balanced and part of the reason is I feel because Tebow is limited as a quarterback.

That answer your question?

[Dreadnought]

That's a difficult question... In all honesty, I'd have to first ask you, is Tebow a quarterback? (Think about it before you answer, because it's a philosophical question). As to my opinion, I would argue that Kyle Orton and Brady Quinn are both better quarterbacks, just not better football players...and I would prefer a football player who is a better quarterback. And yet, it might be hard to find someone who is a better option in the eyes of those who focus on one thing or another, such as having a drive to succeed, being clutch, a will to improve. All qualities I would love to see a quarterback have, as whether we have a quarterback with those qualities is the overall debate...and which I believe we do not. So is there a better option? Yes and No, there are better quarterbacks on the roster, neither of which are good football players. But in all honesty I'd rather watch them because they know how to play the position.

As to the other, yes, Fox wants a run first team that is about 50/50 between the rushing and passing attack, against Oakland it was closer to 70/30 in favor of the run so it was far from balanced and part of the reason is I feel because Tebow is limited as a quarterback.

That answer your question?

I agree that much of it is philosophical. My own view is that 70/30 Run/Pass is a better course than 50/50 if and only if the defense cannot stop the run at all, esp. once you get a lead. In other words, you would be stupid to pass when the defense is surrendering 300 yards on the ground. IOW, the play calling v. Oakland had exactly nothing to do with Tebow's limitations and everything to do with the fact that Oakland couldn't stop the run, or, put another way, it was exactly perfect. Lots of Raiders looked like total chumps last Sunday.

I do not expect us to run for 300 versus many people - more likely none at all. If we run for 175 versus the Chiefs, though, we will win the game and I suspect Tebow will have another QR rating over 85 regardless of yardage thrown for - which is totally irrelevant anyway. If we run for 175 we probably need another 150 from the passing game, and that shouldn't be difficult to manage.

[Northman]

I don't care about the record. As long as he continues to improve each week, he needs to be given another year.

If he is still playing like this the last week of the season, then you have to move on.

I think that is what Clay was kind of eluding too. Getting to 8-8 would pretty much mean he was improving or at least thats how i read his comment. But i agree, if he plateau's and doesnt improve any than there may have to be another option come draft time.

[Slick]

T , there are better quarterbacks on the roster, neither of which are good football players. But in all honesty I'd rather watch them because they know how to play the position.





Seriously? You'd rather watch the first five weeks of the Denver Broncos than the last 3?

[Dreadnought]

Seriously? You'd rather watch the first five weeks of the Denver Broncos than the last 3?

Not me. Kyle Orton caused me to cancel Sunday Ticket in 2010 (Well, he provided an assist to Josh McDaniels :D), because I couldn't justify the expense to watch that mopey loser play and we needed to cut costs. Now I'm considering reconnecting same rather than following the internet feed or hitting a bar

[Lancane]

There are critics who have valid points then there guys like Merril Hoge who imo are just down right vicious.

Hoge, Kiper, Florio, those of that ilk I would label as haters. Others like Mora, Sharpe and Simms they're just giving their honest assessment built on what they see and until something happens to change that, they'll stand firm on their position and because of that are considered the same as those the others.

Look at Trent Dilfer, he's received so much flack from Tebow fans, but in all honesty, he's one of the kids biggest supporters. His take is that Tebow needs to sit and develop longer, that he's being rushed into the lineup partly because of where he was drafted and also because of who drafted him...the Broncos' fan base is starving for a franchise quarterback and that hasn't helped the situation much. And he has some valid points that are far from hateful.

[Dreadnought]

Hoge, Kiper, Florio, those of that ilk I would label as haters. Others like Mora, Sharpe and Simms they're just giving their honest assessment built on what they see and until something happens to change that, they'll stand firm on their position and because of that are considered the same as those the others.

Look at Trent Dilfer, he's received so much flack from Tebow fans, but in all honesty, he's one of the kids biggest supporters. His take is that Tebow needs to sit and develop longer, that he's being rushed into the lineup partly because of where he was drafted and also because of who drafted him...the Broncos' fan base is starving for a franchise quarterback and that hasn't helped the situation much. And he has some valid points that are far from hateful.

Thats a valid distinction. I may disagree with the Mora, Sharpe, Simms group but I respect their opinions and their concerns are legit. Hoge and Kiper I do not respect at all anyway.

[slim]

I think that is what Clay was kind of eluding too. Getting to 8-8 would pretty much mean he was improving or at least thats how i read his comment. But i agree, if he plateau's and doesnt improve any than there may have to be another option come draft time.

IDK, I just think putting a win total on it is the wrong way to go.

I mean, this isn't a very good team, afterall.

[Slick]

Not me. Kyle Orton caused me to cancel Sunday Ticket in 2010 (Well, he provided an assist to Josh McDaniels :D), because I couldn't justify the expense to watch that mopey loser play and we needed to cut costs. Now I'm considering reconnecting same rather than following the internet feed or hitting a bar

I was lucky in that the satellite provider here only charges roughly $100(with the current exchange rate of 13.5 to the dollar) for the Ticket. Had it been in the $170 to $200 range like it is in the States i might not have.

Internet speeds here are bad so the streams don't work well for me. Do they have a mid season deal on DirectTV Dread? Worth investigating so you can drink your own beer and sit on your couch.

[Lancane]

Seriously? You'd rather watch the first five weeks of the Denver Broncos than the last 3?

Regarding the quarterback position? Yes, as painful as it is to admit...I'd rather watch 'Horrible Horton' and his struggles at the quarterback position then this collegiate crap we're seeing to be honest. Then again, there is a chance the overall output of the offense takes a dive in that case and it would be all for nothing anyways.

At let's be frank for a second, the offense wasn't great but they nearly beat Oakland week one, they beat a much better Cincinnati team then people expected that squad to be in week two, they nearly beat Tennessee in week three. Granted, Tebow orchestrated a near comeback against San Diego in week four and had two other comebacks that were successful, but were those two other teams unbeatable? I could argue that neither is really great, which they are not...but in all seriousness, the fact that the staff is preparing to run this team like it's a collegiate program because one kid (can not conform to the pro-style of the NFL) makes my stomach sour and leaves a severely bad taste in my mouth.

There I said it...thanks, now I feel like Top! :lol:

[Dreadnought]

I was lucky in that the satellite provider here only charges roughly $100(with the current exchange rate of 13.5 to the dollar) for the Ticket. Had it been in the $170 to $200 range like it is in the States i might not have.

Internet speeds here are bad so the streams don't work well for me. Do they have a mid season deal on DirectTV Dread? Worth investigating so you can drink your own beer and sit on your couch.

Plus I have a ten year old girl, and I didn't want her knowing that her Daddy even knew all the words I was calling McDaniels. A bad example and all that

[dunk7]

Seriously? You'd rather watch the first five weeks of the Denver Broncos than the last 3?

I think the point that Clay was trying to make is that watching Tebow can be very frustrating. He is poor at reading the field, one out of every 3 passes are accurate and he can't throw a consistent spiral. He's really not a great "QB" but I'll agree that he is a good inspiring football player.

[BroncoStud]

Thats a valid distinction. I may disagree with the Mora, Sharpe, Simms group but I respect their opinions and their concerns are legit. Hoge and Kiper I do not respect at all anyway.

I don't know how Kiper still generates anyone revenue. How does this man have ANY credibility left? His success rate can't be higher than 5%, if that.

He lost me for good a few years ago when he was raving over Jimmy Clausen.

Also, it's been pretty much validated now through the recent recruiting scandals that Kiper's "analysis" is for sale to the right agent.

He's a joke.

[Slick]

Regarding the quarterback position? Yes, as painful as it is to admit...I'd rather watch 'Horrible Horton' and his struggles at the quarterback position then this collegiate crap we're seeing to be honest. Then again, there is a chance the overall output of the offense takes a dive in that case and it would be all for nothing anyways.

At let's be frank for a second, the offense wasn't great but they nearly beat Oakland week one, they beat a much better Cincinnati team then people expected that squad to be in week two, they nearly beat Tennessee in week three. Granted, Tebow orchestrated a near comeback against San Diego in week four and had two other comebacks that were successful, but were those two other teams unbeatable? I could argue that neither is really great, which they are not...but in all seriousness, the fact that the staff is preparing to run this team like it's a collegiate program because one kid (can not conform to the pro-style of the NFL) makes my stomach sour and leaves a severely bad taste in my mouth.

There I said it...thanks, now I feel like Top! :lol:

Fair enough Lancane. I think you're nuts for preferring to watch what we've seen over the last 2 years than giving a young QB a chance to see if he can make the transition. Obviously, he hasn't made any real promising strides yet, but he's won more games this year than Orton has. I hope I never have to see Orton take another snap in a Bronco uniform for the rest of my life.


I think the point that Clay was trying to make is that watching Tebow can be very frustrating. He is poor at reading the field, one out of every 3 passes are accurate and he can't throw a consistent spiral. He's really not a great "QB" but I'll agree that he is a good inspiring football player.

I get what Clay says.

Lancane, on the other hand, is insane.

[BroncoStud]

I would rather watch Michael Vick fighting poodles than I would Kyle Orton take another snap for this team.

It's incredibly insane to me that someone would prefer to watch Orton lose ugly than to watch Tebow win ugly. Horribly out of the realm of reason.

[dunk7]

Fair enough Lancane. I think you're nuts for preferring to watch what we've seen over the last 2 years than giving a young QB a chance to see if he can make the transition. Obviously, he hasn't made any real promising strides yet, but he's won more games this year than Orton has. I hope I never have to see Orton take another snap in a Bronco uniform for the rest of my life.

I get what Clay says.

Lancane, on the other hand, is insane.

Count me as insane as well, but I preferred watching Orton until we started falling behind in games (because I knew there was little chance of a comeback). I hate watching Tebow for 3 quarters but LOVE watching the 4th quarters. I just have my doubts that with our tough remaining schedule, his mediocrity will keep us close enough so that his "miracles" can salvage wins. I hope I'm wrong.