Will Tebow's running style lead to refs not calling roughing the passer like these?

[Tned]

The second and third hit were both helmet to the head of the QB. The first was under the chin, and a massively blown call. The second was helmet to helmet and twisted Tebow's helmet and popped loose two of his chin straps.

8C6OWOwfZ0U

UPDATE/EDIT: As some didn't think the third one was a helmet to helmet or shoulder to helmet hit, I just posted this in the thread, and am updating this:

It should be pointed that Curry took over two steps after Tebow released the ball, which I believe should be a penalty in and of itself (although that might go away when you leave the pocket).

As to the blow, in live action, I thought it was shoulder to helmet, in the stills it turns out it's helmet to helmet. I included the last one to show the severity of the blow popped loose Tebow's chin strap, not him hitting the ground (actually a strap on each side pops loose, but you only see the one in these shots).

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/oak_tebow_blow_head_1.JPG

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/oak_tebow_blow_head_2.JPG

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/oak_tebow_blow_head_3.JPG

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/oak_tebow_blow_head_4.JPG

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/oak_tebow_blow_head_5.JPG

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/oak_tebow_blow_head_6.JPG

[broncohead]

The second one should have been called the first shouldn't have imo. So cancelled eachother out

[MOtorboat]

I remember thinking the second one being a penalty, but not sure about the third. I don't think it's his style. I think Vick and Philly whine about that a little too much.

He did get a call. I thought Miller could have been called for several because of going low on Palmer and he wasn't, so I think it evened out in the end. And Palmer isn't mobile at all.

Plus, he got the hit out of bounds that was borderline, and that's when he was actually running and playing that style that supposedly doesn't get the calls.

Edit: After watching the youtube, No. 3 definitely wasn't. No. 1 and No. 2 were probably penalties, and he got one, didn't get the other.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I remember thinking the second one being a penalty, but not sure about the third. I don't think it's his style. I think Vick and Philly whine about that a little too much.

He did get a call. I thought Miller could have been called for several because of going low on Palmer and he wasn't, so I think it evened out in the end. And Palmer isn't mobile at all.

Plus, he got the hit out of bounds that was borderline, and that's when he was actually running and playing that style that supposedly doesn't get the calls.

Edit: After watching the youtube, No. 3 definitely wasn't. No. 1 and No. 2 were probably penalties, and he got one, didn't get the other.

I don't think any of Von's hits on Palmer were illegal, except of course the late roughing the passer one. They looked a little low, but typically, Von's helmet/shoulder pads were hitting Palmer around the waistline or above the thigh pads. Von gets low and turns into a missile when he gets free. The one thing you won't have to worry about with Von are hits to the head.

[sneakers]

Tebow needs to wink at the refs a little more often and he will get the flags.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I don't think any of Von's hits on Palmer were illegal, except of course the late roughing the passer one. They looked a little low, but typically, Von's helmet/shoulder pads were hitting Palmer around the waistline or above the thigh pads. Von gets low and turns into a missile when he gets free. The one thing you won't have to worry about with Von are hits to the head.

I don't think the third hit on Tebow was illegal, either. He was out of the pocket and it was shoulder to shoulder. Just because the helmets clacked doesn't mean it's helmet to helmet. The under the chin shot that busted open his lip was definitely illegal.

[MOtorboat]

I don't think any of Von's hits on Palmer were illegal, except of course the late roughing the passer one. They looked a little low, but typically, Von's helmet/shoulder pads were hitting Palmer around the waistline or above the thigh pads. Von gets low and turns into a missile when he gets free. The one thing you won't have to worry about with Von are hits to the head.

I'd agree, but I'm not so sure the league would. Especially because Palmer has had so many problems with his knees and then the whole Roethlisberger thing earlier this season. Now, he was never planted, on the two I saw he was moving backwards and Miller grabbed him mid-thigh, but by rule, at least the way I understand it, that's borderline.

As far as Tebow. No. 2 was definitely a flag. No. 3 not so much. But, as to his style...well, he did get a call out of bounds that was pretty close, and really affected the outcome of a drive, too.

[Northman]

Yea, i look at it pretty much the same way i do with Vick. When you put it out there that your a running threat and in a sense become a RB than your gonna take some shots. The one where it got underneath his helmet (2nd hit) was certainly questionable but the first and third were fine to me. If Tebow wants to get hit less like that than staying behind the line and throwing from the pocket more will alleviate some of the calls the refs may make.

[AlWilsonizKING]

The one thing that need to be taken away from this, is better protection for Tebow when passing!! When he's running he will take some hits, but the Oline has to do a much better job of protecting him. Though I know that's harder than it looks when opposing teams are sending the house each time. We know he won't last ong taken too many of those each game.

As for changing the game who knows. I don't think any Broncos QB have ever gotten much sympathy from refs since John Elway was so mobil and tough.


PEACE!!!

[BroncoStud]

We just need Ed Hoculi to work all our games, we will be fine. Tebow will get the calls.

[lgenf]

Yes it will, but he will still get some calls

[Tned]

I'd agree, but I'm not so sure the league would. Especially because Palmer has had so many problems with his knees and then the whole Roethlisberger thing earlier this season. Now, he was never planted, on the two I saw he was moving backwards and Miller grabbed him mid-thigh, but by rule, at least the way I understand it, that's borderline.

As far as Tebow. No. 2 was definitely a flag. No. 3 not so much. But, as to his style...well, he did get a call out of bounds that was pretty close, and really affected the outcome of a drive, too.

How can you say number 3 wasn't a penalty? Under the current rules, any blow to the QBs head when in the act of passing is a penalty.


(b) Prohibited contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture is:
(1) Forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless player by encircling or grasping him; and

HITS TO PASSER’S HEAD AND USE OF HELMET AND FACEMASK
(3) In covering the passer position, Referees will be particularly alert to fouls in which defenders impermissibly use the helmet and/or facemask to hit the passer, or use hands, arms, or other parts of the body to hit the passer forcibly in the head or neck area (see also the other unnecessary-roughness rules covering these subjects). A defensive player must not use his helmet against a passer who is in a defenseless posture for example, (a) forcibly hitting the passer’s head or neck area with the helmet or facemask, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the passer by encircling or grasping him, or (b) lowering the head and making forcible contact with the top/crown or forehead/”hairline” parts of the helmet against any part of the passer’s body. This rule does not prohibit incidental contact by the mask or non-crown parts of the helmet in the course of a conventional tackle on a passer.

PASSER OUT OF THE POCKET
(8) When the passer goes outside the pocket area and either continues moving with the ball (without attempting to advance the ball as a runner) or throws while on the run, he loses the protection of the one-step rule provided for in (1) above, and the protection against a low hit provided for in (5) above, but he remains covered by all the other special protections afforded to a passer in the pocket (numbers 2, 3, 4, 6, and 7), as well as the regular unnecessary-roughness rules applicable to all player positions. If the passer stops behind the line and clearly establishes a passing posture, he will then be covered by all of the special protections for passers

Note 1: If in doubt about a roughness call or potentially dangerous tactic on the quarterback, the Referee should always call roughing the passer.

[Tned]

Yea, i look at it pretty much the same way i do with Vick. When you put it out there that your a running threat and in a sense become a RB than your gonna take some shots. The one where it got underneath his helmet (2nd hit) was certainly questionable but the first and third were fine to me. If Tebow wants to get hit less like that than staying behind the line and throwing from the pocket more will alleviate some of the calls the refs may make.

By rule, the first three were all roughing the passer.

The first, which was called as such, was because he drove him into the ground.

The second and third because you aren't allowed to initiate a forcible blow to the head or neck area of the QB with your head, arm, shoulder or other body part.

[broncobryce]

Yes. But it should also lead to them not calling "in the grasp" and letting him escape out of would be sacks.

[Joel]

Under current rules, all three look like penalties to me, the second and third adequately covered (IMHO) by the personal foul for spearing: If you lead with your helmet it's a spear and a personal foul. I don't really get why we needed a second rule prohibiting something that was already illegal but never called; if we call the first penalty we don't need the second, and if we don't call the first we won't call the second either once all the controversy settles. Personally, I think all the "defenseless player" rules are ridiculous, and, far more importantly, unfair and prejudicial to the game since runners receive no such special treatment. The League has greatly restricted what defenders can do, not only to prevent passing and receiving, but even how defenders can even tackle players trying to do those two things; meanwhile, anything goes for runners short of facemasks and horse collars (which are illegal against any player.) Small wonder that passing stats continue to climb while running stats stagnate: The old witticism that "three things can happen when you put the ball up for grabs, and two of them are bad" is no longer true; MOST of the possible outcomes in a passing attempt are quite good, many of them being automatic first downs even if the ball comes down five yards out of bounds. In that kind of environment any coach who instead opts for three yards and a cloud of dust probably took too many blows to the head back when they were legal.

I don't think any of Von's hits on Palmer were illegal, except of course the late roughing the passer one. They looked a little low, but typically, Von's helmet/shoulder pads were hitting Palmer around the waistline or above the thigh pads. Von gets low and turns into a missile when he gets free. The one thing you won't have to worry about with Von are hits to the head.
Dierdorf had a good point there: Often, Palmer was stepping back to avoid the hit. If a guy steps back when you aim for his navel you're likely to hit him below the waist, but penalize that and you might as well ban sacks.

I'd agree, but I'm not so sure the league would. Especially because Palmer has had so many problems with his knees and then the whole Roethlisberger thing earlier this season. Now, he was never planted, on the two I saw he was moving backwards and Miller grabbed him mid-thigh, but by rule, at least the way I understand it, that's borderline.

As far as Tebow. No. 2 was definitely a flag. No. 3 not so much. But, as to his style...well, he did get a call out of bounds that was pretty close, and really affected the outcome of a drive, too.
I agree that was a VERY close penalty I probably wouldn't have called, but disagree that it affected the outcome of the drive much. It gave us an automatic first down, and I think we MAY have gotten one more, before we ran Tebow straight into the line twice on 2nd and 2, then punted from midfield. IIRC, the Raiders then went three and out and punted to Royal, who ran it back for a TD, so the late hit was irrelevant.

Yes. But it should also lead to them not calling "in the grasp" and letting him escape out of would be sacks.
It does; "in the grasp" went the way of the dodo long ago, primarily because of all the QBs who had big passing/running gains called back because they escaped someones supposedly inescapable grasp. Supposedly it's still on the books, but I haven't seen that call made in a very long time; the determining factor of whether a QB is "in the grasp" now is basically whether they go down or not.

[Northman]

By rule, the first three were all roughing the passer.

The first, which was called as such, was because he drove him into the ground.

The second and third because you aren't allowed to initiate a forcible blow to the head or neck area of the QB with your head, arm, shoulder or other body part.

Nah, that first hit was simply a tackle man. I think your REALLY making that out to be more than it was. When it comes to a defender driving a player into the ground ive seen a lot worse than that. Sorry, i just dont feel the same on that but certainly dont feel like getting into a pissing contest over an opinion.

The second one clearly was a helmt to his chin which i do agree was illegal.

The third one looks like at the last minute the defender pulls up using his shoulder a second after he passes the ball. Maybe you can give me a still where his helmet hits Tebow's and ill change my mind but looking at it paused it looks like the defender pulled up at the last minute.

[Tned]

Nah, that first hit was simply a tackle man. I think your REALLY making that out to be more than it was. When it comes to a defender driving a player into the ground ive seen a lot worse than that. Sorry, i just dont feel the same on that but certainly dont feel like getting into a pissing contest over an opinion.

The second one clearly was a helmt to his chin which i do agree was illegal.

The third one looks like at the last minute the defender pulls up using his shoulder a second after he passes the ball. Maybe you can give me a still where his helmet hits Tebow's and ill change my mind but looking at it paused it looks like the defender pulled up at the last minute.

The first one was called by the ref. Of the three, I thought that was borderline, but he did drive him into the ground, so I know why he threw the flag.

On the third one, it's just as illegal to hit the head/neck area with the shoulder or arm as it is the helmet (the rules I pasted in).

Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that I agree with the new rules that make any blow to the head/neck area a penalty, but since we've had many of them called against us, and since this clearly violates the rules as written, it should have been called.

I'm on the laptop in bed now, I'll see about a still/slowmo tomorrow.

[Tned]

Nah, that first hit was simply a tackle man. I think your REALLY making that out to be more than it was. When it comes to a defender driving a player into the ground ive seen a lot worse than that. Sorry, i just dont feel the same on that but certainly dont feel like getting into a pissing contest over an opinion.

The second one clearly was a helmt to his chin which i do agree was illegal.

The third one looks like at the last minute the defender pulls up using his shoulder a second after he passes the ball. Maybe you can give me a still where his helmet hits Tebow's and ill change my mind but looking at it paused it looks like the defender pulled up at the last minute.

By the way, this it he applicable part of the rule:


In covering the passer position, Referees will be particularly alert to fouls in which defenders impermissibly use the helmet and/or facemask to hit the passer, or use hands, arms, or other parts of the body to hit the passer forcibly in the head or neck area

[MOtorboat]

He drew two personal fouls, which is pretty good. They aren't going to call every ticky-tacky personal foul, nor should they. Especially if you have to DVR it and play it in slomo to figure it out.

I still don't know what any of this has to do with your original question.

[Northman]

The first one was called by the ref. Of the three, I thought that was borderline, but he did drive him into the ground, so I know why he threw the flag.

Certainly a judgement call by the ref. But nowhere did i see the defender pick Tebow off the ground and piledrive him. To me that was just a tackle but as i said, judgement call the on the ref although i thought i was a ticky tack one.


On the third one, it's just as illegal to hit the head/neck area with the shoulder or arm as it is the helmet (the rules I pasted in).

Thats just it, when i pause that play on the third hit the defender pulls up and nails Tebow in the shoulder with his own shoulder. Like i said, you can get clearer picture where Tebow is actually being hit anywhere in the head area ill change my stance but right now i dont see it.
[/QUOTE]

[Northman]

By the way, this it he applicable part of the rule:

In covering the passer position, Referees will be particularly alert to fouls in which defenders impermissibly use the helmet and/or facemask to hit the passer, or use hands, arms, or other parts of the body to hit the passer forcibly in the head or neck area

Um, yes im quite aware of the rules mate. :lol:

[Tned]

Um, yes im quite aware of the rules mate. :lol:

Gotcha, that would make you the 1 in 500 or so fan. Glad I'm not alone. ;)

It will be interesting to see if either of these guys get fines.

The second one is akin to the Rahim Moore hit/fine, but with the difference that Tebow didn't get knocked out of the game. It was enough of a blow to pop loose two of his chin straps, which is unlikely from shoulder to shoulder.

[MOtorboat]

I'll agree that the second one was probably the worst of the bunch, and it wasn't flagged, but will probably get fined.

Just can't agree on the third one.

[Tned]

I'll agree that the second one was probably the worst of the bunch, and it wasn't flagged, but will probably get fined.

Just can't agree on the third one.

Why?

Also, on your other question that I missed. Considering that Refs are calling anything even close to a QBs head, including the Broncos having had a number of bad calls against them, where a forearm made a non-forcible blow, or that there was no contact to the head or neck, for two hits that clearly violate the rules as written, including the note to refs that if there is any doubt, call roughing the passer, one has to wonder if the fact he is running so much and not acting like a 'normal' QB is why these calls weren't made.

P.S. It didn't take stopping a DVR to see these, they were clear in full speed. The first one the TV guy talked about extensively as a non-call. The second one was clear when they showed the hit. Tebow was screaming at the ref about it with his helmet straps flopping loose.

[MOtorboat]

Why can't I agree on the third one?

Because live I see a shoulder hit a shoulder. I've watched the youtube three times. I can't see any helmet to helmet.

[DenBronx]

Yeah Miller could have got called for the low hit on Palmer and the refs let it go.

Just good tough physical football. Let them play! The NFL is getting soft and I don't like it.

One things for sure though, TT has a brass ball sack. Tuff dude!

[Tned]

Ok, I'm sitting in bed thinking either North and MO are blind or I'm seeing things, so got up and went to the Hi-Def and did screen grabs to see what's what.

It should be pointed that Curry took over two steps after Tebow released the ball, which I believe should be a penalty in and of itself (although that might go away when you leave the pocket).

As to the blow, in live action, I thought it was shoulder to helmet, in the stills it turns out it's helmet to helmet. I included the last one to show the severity of the blow popped loose Tebow's chin strap, not him hitting the ground (actually a strap on each side pops loose, but you only see the one in these shots).

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/oak_tebow_blow_head_1.JPG

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/oak_tebow_blow_head_2.JPG

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/oak_tebow_blow_head_3.JPG

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/oak_tebow_blow_head_4.JPG

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/oak_tebow_blow_head_5.JPG

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/oak_tebow_blow_head_6.JPG

[Ravage!!!]

That to me is an obvious shoulder to shoulder hit. Just because the helmets clank together, does NOT mean its a "helmet -to- helmet" hit. The helmets are large, they will bump into each other on nearly every hit to the body in some fashion or another. This, to me, is clearly a guy leading with his shoulder into the shoulder of another player.

[MOtorboat]

Whatever, still looks like he kept his head straight up and hit him with a shoulder. If anyone initiated head contact in that it was Tebow.

If that had been called it would have been terrible ticky tacky for a 15 yard penalty.

Besides, he got a ticky tack late hit that kept a drive alive while running.

[Tned]

That to me is an obvious shoulder to shoulder hit. Just because the helmets clank together, does NOT mean its a "helmet -to- helmet" hit. The helmets are large, they will bump into each other on nearly every hit to the body in some fashion or another. This, to me, is clearly a guy leading with his shoulder into the shoulder of another player.

That's the same argument people made to defend Moore's hit, claiming it was 'first' shoulder to shoulder, and then the helmets hit. Moore was fined, because intent or what hits first has no bearing on the rule. If you make a forcible blow to the head or shoulder area with your head, arm or any other body part, it's a foul.

I guess you guys just don't understand the new rules.

[Tned]

Whatever, still looks like he kept his head straight up and hit him with a shoulder. If anyone initiated head contact in that it was Tebow.

If that had been called it would have been terrible ticky tacky for a 15 yard penalty.

Besides, he got a ticky tack late hit that kept a drive alive while running.

If you look at the third still, Curry is clearly leading with his head. In the fourth still, there helmets are clearly together.

Anyway, somehow (beyond me how) we see the same thing differently, but doesn't really matter.

[Northman]

It is helmet to helmet but i guess this is where my problem lies with the rule itself and it kind of piggybacks off of what Rav was eluding too.

As you notice the defender coming to lay the hit on Tebow, Tebow HIMSELF ducks his head down to brace for the impact and thus helps create the helmets clashing. Dont know if there will be a fine for that but this type of stuff happens a lot throughout every game played on Sundays. Ive played the game of football and tackling players whether its a QB, RB, WR, or whatever there is bound to be some helmet clashing somewhere. I personally dont see that as a malicious or cheap shot of any kind. Guess we will have to wait and see what happens with it.

[Ravage!!!]

That's the same argument people made to defend Moore's hit, claiming it was 'first' shoulder to shoulder, and then the helmets hit. Moore was fined, because intent or what hits first has no bearing on the rule. If you make a forcible blow to the head or shoulder area with your head, arm or any other body part, it's a foul.

I guess you guys just don't understand the new rules.

Or maybe slowing something down to where its a standstill is silly? I mean.. who cares if the other was and this one wasnt? I don't think it is. Perhaps YOU just don't understand the rules and dn't like that we disagree with you? Thats what it seems to me. You' have laid out your case, given your "evidence" and don't like that its still disagreed upon.. claiming that WE must be misinformed or inaccurate in our judgement of your evidence because SURELY we would HAVE to agree with you.

To me its clearly a guy hitting with the shoulder.

[Northman]

I guess you guys just don't understand the new rules.

No need to be a dick dude. Seriously. Just because people a different viewpoint doesnt mean you need all anal about it.

[MOtorboat]

Yup, you clearly understand football better than all the rest of us.

[Tned]

It is helmet to helmet but i guess this is where my problem lies with the rule itself and it kind of piggybacks off of what Rav was eluding too.

As you notice the defender coming to lay the hit on Tebow, Tebow HIMSELF ducks his head down to brace for the impact and thus helps create the helmets clashing. Dont know if there will be a fine for that but this type of stuff happens a lot throughout every game played on Sundays. Ive played the game of football and tackling players whether its a QB, RB, WR, or whatever there is bound to be some helmet clashing somewhere. I personally dont see that as a malicious or cheap shot of any kind. Guess we will have to wait and see what happens with it.

It's the same conversation we had following the Moore hit and fine. People were claiming that it was only helmet to helmet because the WR ducked to try and avoid the hit, or that Moore hit him shoulder to shoulder and the impact caused the WR's helmet to rebound into Moores.

Moore got fined for that, because the rule doesn't make any allowances for why or how, only if it happens.

I said with that incident, that I don't like the rules as they are written, because nearly any blow from the top of the numbers up could be deemed a blow to the head, based on follow through, rebound/whiplash effect, etc.

Whether we like it or not, like with the Moore penalty/fine, the rules as written make that clearly a penalty that was missed. Unfortunately, we don't get to see the grading of the officials, because I am 100% confident the officials would get marked down for both of Curry's helmet to helmet hits.

While not 100% confident, I think it's pretty likely Curry will get a fine for the hits.

[Tned]

No need to be a dick dude. Seriously. Just because people a different viewpoint doesnt mean you need all anal about it.

I wasn't being a dick or a MO, if you will, I was stating a fact. Like in your last post when you said you don't see it as malicious. That's no longer a factor in the rules. Intent has no bearing on the rule.

This is a rehash of the conversation from the Moore hit, so I probably should have just put up the video and photos and left it at that, rather than go through people getting irritated a second time for me discussing the incident as it relates to the rules, as opposed to if I "think" it should be a penalty.

[Davii]

There were a lot of hits on Tim that should've been called, I think three plays in a row, I was screaming arty my tv begging the refs to pay attention.

[Tned]

Or maybe slowing something down to where its a standstill is silly? I mean.. who cares if the other was and this one wasnt? I don't think it is. Perhaps YOU just don't understand the rules and dn't like that we disagree with you? Thats what it seems to me. You' have laid out your case, given your "evidence" and don't like that its still disagreed upon.. claiming that WE must be misinformed or inaccurate in our judgement of your evidence because SURELY we would HAVE to agree with you.

To me its clearly a guy hitting with the shoulder.

I slowed it down, because I was asked to by North. It was clear to me that it was helmet to helmet when watching the broadcast.

Are you saying that neither in the video or stills you see helmet to helmet contact?

If you do see helmet to helmet contact, where in the rules does it say it is ok? Or more specifically, what exclusion to the forbidding of hitting the head or neck area of the QB would make this not a roughing the passer?

I hear you saying it isn't, but not why.

[Northman]

It's the same conversation we had following the Moore hit and fine. People were claiming that it was only helmet to helmet because the WR ducked to try and avoid the hit, or that Moore hit him shoulder to shoulder and the impact caused the WR's helmet to rebound into Moores.

Moore got fined for that, because the rule doesn't make any allowances for why or how, only if it happens.

I said with that incident, that I don't like the rules as they are written, because nearly any blow from the top of the numbers up could be deemed a blow to the head, based on follow through, rebound/whiplash effect, etc.

Whether we like it or not, like with the Moore penalty/fine, the rules as written make that clearly a penalty that was missed. Unfortunately, we don't get to see the grading of the officials, because I am 100% confident the officials would get marked down for both of Curry's helmet to helmet hits.

While not 100% confident, I think it's pretty likely Curry will get a fine for the hits.

Maybe, but if he doesnt it really wont bother me. I see these kinds of hits in every game every week. Its just a judgement call by not only the ref but the league. Im really not sure its that much to get worked up about honestly. As a running QB he is going to take more shots than he normally would standing in the pocket. Thing is, once you pass the line of scrimmage and become a runner you open yourself up to some pretty lethal hits regardless if your a QB or RB.

[BroncoJoe]

Man, you guys will find anything to argue about.

This board is becoming hard to check in to.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Ravage!!!]

Because I don't see how you can have two guys standing up, hitting their shoulders, and NOT hit the helmets. I understand that you "Feel" it should be..... or that it "fits the rules"... but at the same time Im hearing you say this, I'm wondering.."who cares" if it gets a fine or not? Why care? It doesn't change the game, it won't change any outcome, and it doesn't matter.

If its a fine, its a sham. Thats how I see it. I get it that the offensive player can move their head in any direction and the defender is supposed to "dodge" that helmet. But when the tackler is not leading with the head, and incidental contact is made after contact TO THE SHOULDER is whats initiated, then if THAT is whats getting fined... its HORRENDOUS. Now you may not be disagreeing with that, but from what I see, I don't CARE f the helmets "touch" since thats basically all you are showing me with your stills. "Touching" helmets does not mean a player led with the head or made a "helmet to helmet" contact in tackling.

Thats why I think the hit is fine. I think if THAT kind of hit is called, or fined, and in ANY way keeps a player from playing the game in a physical manner..... its bull CRAP.

[Northman]

Man, you guys will find anything to argue about.




It is sad i agree. Would be nice to just enjoy the win without people pretending they are be all end all to discussions. You definitely hit the mark with that one.

[Tned]

It is sad i agree. Would be nice to just enjoy the win without people pretending they are be all end all to discussions. You definitely hit the mark with that one.

North, that's laughable. So, when you take such positions, say on Tebow as a QB, or McDaniels as a coach, you know..... Oh, just **** it. Not worth it. Night.

[Northman]

Because I don't see how you can have two guys standing up, hitting their shoulders, and NOT hit the helmets. I understand that you "Feel" it should be..... or that it "fits the rules"... but at the same time Im hearing you say this, I'm wondering.."who cares" if it gets a fine or not? Why care? It doesn't change the game, it won't change any outcome, and it doesn't matter.

If its a fine, its a sham. Thats how I see it. I get it that the offensive player can move their head in any direction and the defender is supposed to "dodge" that helmet. But when the tackler is not leading with the head, and incidental contact is made after contact TO THE SHOULDER is whats initiated, then if THAT is whats getting fined... its HORRENDOUS. Now you may not be disagreeing with that, but from what I see, I don't CARE f the helmets "touch" since thats basically all you are showing me with your stills. "Touching" helmets does not mean a player led with the head or made a "helmet to helmet" contact in tackling.

Thats why I think the hit is fine. I think if THAT kind of hit is called, or fined, and in ANY way keeps a player from playing the game in a physical manner..... its bull CRAP.

I thought it was interesting tonight watching the Steelers/Ravens game that Clark got nabbed on PI call early in the game. It was clearly against the rules but the announcers made a point that i think is true and that is that (their theory) the players will just keep playing the way they know how and deal with the fines as they come. I know Suh has fought tooth and nail with all his fines but has also said he isnt changing a thing. For the most part cant say i blame them really. Its a violent sport and with any job there is a risk.

[Ravage!!!]

I thought it was interesting tonight watching the Steelers/Ravens game that Clark got nabbed on PI call early in the game. It was clearly against the rules but the announcers made a point that i think is true and that is that (their theory) the players will just keep playing the way they know how and deal with the fines as they come. I know Suh has fought tooth and nail with all his fines but has also said he isnt changing a thing. For the most part cant say i blame them really. Its a violent sport and with any job there is a risk.

Yeah.... they have to keep trying to play they know how... or we will see more players "let" a QB out of their grasp for fear of getting a penalty (as we've seen happen). Running QBs complain about getting calls, but as soon as you try to treat them with the kid gloves that the NFL wants you too, they take advantage. Kinda like Tebow trying to get up and "slide again" after no one touched him on his first slide. The refs ignored him getting up and running again, but its almost as if the rules are made to let the QBs have the benefit of both worlds.

[Ziggy]

I'm just hoping that Tebow can stay healthy. He's taking some huge hits. I understand that he's 245 pounds of muscle, but the human body can only take so much of a beating.

[Northman]

North, that's laughable. So, when you take such positions, say on Tebow as a QB, or McDaniels as a coach, you know..... Oh, just **** it. Not worth it. Night.

Not even the same thing dude. For one, im down the middle on Tebow and always have been. If you want i can pull up all the posts but it would just annoy me that i would have to at this point. But the other part of that is everything that ive stated on Tebow and McDaniels were just opinions on how i look at it. I didnt go telling people they clearly dont know the rules about something. I mean seriously, dont know if you having a bad day or what but you were clearly the aggressor tonight when people expressed a different outlook than your own in this thread. Im certainly not going to dwell on this so i hope you have a great night.

[Northman]

I'm just hoping that Tebow can stay healthy. He's taking some huge hits. I understand that he's 245 pounds of muscle, but the human body can only take so much of a beating.

Yea, as cool as he looked having some blood on his lips he took some mean shots today. He wont last long doing that every week.

[BORDERLINE]

Tebow will not get the same calls Brady/Manning/Brees get. Plain and simple, Tebow is a running qb therefore will be treated as such by the refs. It may not be right but that's how it looks like it's gonna be.

He's a tuff guy tough, I'm sure his frame can take those hits. He has a TE build he is made to take those hits. Now will he play 15 years that way I don't think.

[jhildebrand]

They all should have been Flagged. There also should have been some flags for some Raider's actions well after a whistle diving on to the pile.

There were too many flags thrown this game but there were a couple for both teams that should have been called Roughing the passer and werent.

The Broncos will send video to the league. I assure you. It will be watched more closely next week. If they cry about it in the media like Reid and Vick, nothing will happen.

[Ravage!!!]

ugh..thats just what this team and the "tebow press" needs.

[vettesplus]

if he continues to take hits like this he will eventually be taken off with an injury, then what Orton, Quinn, or that other guy!!!!

[weazel]

they were taking liberties at timmy for sure... Timmy needs to complain like Vick did, it worked for him.

[Tned]

I was pretty sure this would be a given, but it's official now. Curry was fined for his helmet to helmet hits on Tebow.


RT @JasonLaCanfora: From Week 9, Aaron Curry was fined $20,000 for roughing the passer. He struck the quarterback in the head and neck area.

[Tned]

Also, Jarvis Moss was fined $15k for driving Tebow into the ground on a roughing the passer call.

[EastCoastBronco]

The one where he took the crown of a helmet under his chin was definitely a penalty.
The blood running down his chin from the hole in his lip was proof enough of that.
I'm pretty sure that one didn't get called.
The cool part is that you won't hear Tebow whining about it like Vick did.
That's why I like the kid.

[vettesplus]

the league even has the fan base brainwashed, just let these guys play ball, if they get the crap knocked out of them, put them on the bench and send the next player in line out to the huddle. isnt that the way this game should be played??? thats the way it use to be played.

[Davii]

the league even has the fan base brainwashed, just let these guys play ball, if they get the crap knocked out of them, put them on the bench and send the next player in line out to the huddle. isnt that the way this game should be played??? thats the way it use to be played.

And it used to be ok to harass women at work...

Progress. It's an amazing thing. Why not let them get pummeled? The league would cease to exist after a few years when the players win every medical related lawsuit they can possibly file...

[Tned]

the league even has the fan base brainwashed, just let these guys play ball, if they get the crap knocked out of them, put them on the bench and send the next player in line out to the huddle. isnt that the way this game should be played??? thats the way it use to be played.

It's not about being 'brainwashed.' That's hogwash, quite frankly. It's about enforcement of the rules AS WRITTEN.

Some of your guys really struggle with the concept of discussing a rule as written vs. liking said rule.

The rules are very clear about blows to the head/neck area of QBs or defenseless players (act of a catch, etc.).

[catfish]

It's not about being 'brainwashed.' That's hogwash, quite frankly. It's about enforcement of the rules AS WRITTEN.

Some of your guys really struggle with the concept of discussing a rule as written vs. liking said rule.

The rules are very clear about blows to the head/neck area of QBs or defenseless players (act of a catch, etc.).

My guess is you will see more calls after the Oakland no call garbage. Refs got reamed for that game no doubt

[Dapper Dan]

One thing I believe, Tebow won't make a deal out of it the way that Vick did.