Proof ONE man does make a difference

[cardoso]

Proof ONE man does make a difference
Broncos with Orton under center:

1-4 record
Offensive Turnovers: 13
Defensive Turnovers: 5
Rushing Yards per Game: 86 yds
Points Per Game: 18.2


Broncos with Tebow under center:

2-1 record
Offensive Turnovers: 4
Defensive turnovers: 6
Rushing Yards a game: 223yds
Points per Game: 22 pts


I could go and calculate his last three starts last year which would increase all his numbers, but don't have too much time. I think this is clear enough to prove the point.

[lgenf]

Sorry, I just don't agree......

And I've got a Tebow Gator jersey and a Tebow Broncos jersey

[cardoso]

Sorry, I just don't agree......

And I've got a Tebow Gator jersey and a Tebow Broncos jersey

I can respect that, but can you state the results that defend your opinion?

[BroncoStud]

I think Tim does a surprisingly good job of protecting the football, especially if you consider the pressure he sees on every play. He has certainly done a good job of that. I give us about a ZERO PERCENT chance of beating Oakland today with Kyle Orton at QB, so I think we are better with Tebow, but he needs to keep improving.

[lgenf]

I can respect that, but can you state the results that defend your opinion?

Here's the only stat I need to quote to rebut anything written above

9 weeks into the season we looked better than we did week 1

[BroncoBJ]

Yea, no surprise here. Orton is worthless. Pretty sure everyone already knows that.

[CrazyHorse]

I think Tim does a surprisingly good job of protecting the football, especially if you consider the pressure he sees on every play. He has certainly done a good job of that. I give us about a ZERO PERCENT chance of beating Oakland today with Kyle Orton at QB, so I think we are better with Tebow, but he needs to keep improving.

Agreed. I'll take incompletions and sacks over interceptions any day.

[camdisco24]

The TEAM played better today than I have seen in quite some time.

Tebow did earn us the win vs Miami, but usually I don't like giving all the credit to just one man... this is the BRONCOS after all.

[Bullgator]

The TEAM has played better with Tim under center... for sure.. And I think he is a big factor in that.... but I also think the coaching staff and team is gelling as well...

Its important that the QB not have to make ALL the plays... we got a big day from everyone today. That tells me the team is growing not just Tebow.

But I dont think KO wins that game today... and we damn sure dont run for 300 yards, and IMO it was the rushing that on the game... even when we were behind.

[broncohead]

The TEAM played better today than I have seen in quite some time.

Tebow did earn us the win vs Miami, but usually I don't like giving all the credit to just one man... this is the BRONCOS after all.

Did u watch that game?

[SM19]

I guess based on the thread title, I was expecting proof of causation, not just correlation.

[DenBronx]

Tebow has an extremely high ceiling so one things for sure, he's only going to get better in the pocket. One day soon he's going to make defenses pay for putting 8 men in the box.

[igoe4broncos]

He makes a huge difference in the running game. On those shotgun, read option plays, it looked like Oakland had two guys (DE and OLB) devoted to Tebow. That hesitation on the reads after Tebow takes the snap opens up a lot more holes for McGahee and Co. in the running game.

[Tned]

The TEAM played better today than I have seen in quite some time.

Tebow did earn us the win vs Miami, but usually I don't like giving all the credit to just one man... this is the BRONCOS after all.

It's clearly not one player, but it was like Mays or Woodyard or one of the defenseive guys were saying about the 20 yard first down run when backed up at the goal line in Miami. He said the whole defense jumped up and some of them almost ran on the field when he got that first down.

In this game, when Tebow drew the late hit out of bounds that got them a first down and kept the drive alive, Marcus Thomas ran up to him jumping up and down patting him on the back.

There is no way you can say it's all Tebow, but it is clear that he raises the excitement and belief that they can win and that impacts more than just the offense.

[jhildebrand]

Good team win. Offense, Defense and special teams all playing huge roles.

Not sure this would have been the same had Oakland been able to use McFadden.

[camdisco24]

Did u watch that game?

Haven't missed a Broncos game in years. Look, I'm not saying Tebow didn't make a difference at all. I'm just careful about putting it all on one guy.


It's clearly not one player, but it was like Mays or Woodyard or one of the defenseive guys were saying about the 20 yard first down run when backed up at the goal line in Miami. He said the whole defense jumped up and some of them almost ran on the field when he got that first down.

In this game, when Tebow drew the late hit out of bounds that got them a first down and kept the drive alive, Marcus Thomas ran up to him jumping up and down patting him on the back.

There is no way you can say it's all Tebow, but it is clear that he raises the excitement and belief that they can win and that impacts more than just the offense.

I'm in 100% agreement with this statement. No doubt he fires up the guys around him. But, its up to the TEAM to respond. (Like you said Tned)

[CoachChaz]

I'm not a Tebow hater, nor am I swinging from his sack. But one thing that I thought was a bit ridiculous in the Miami and Detroit games is how people focused on the negatives with Tebow and didnt bother to mention that the WHOLE team played bad...not just the QB.

Now that the WHOLE team plays well...many blow off what the QB did well. I'm not saying he had a "great" game or that he is the reason we won...but his play and the play of the rest of the team is what makes us or breaks us.

So, I will say the title of this thread is incorrect. ONE man does not make a difference...good or bad. The team does

[Agent of Orange]

I'm not a Tebow hater, nor am I swinging from his sack. But one thing that I thought was a bit ridiculous in the Miami and Detroit games is how people focused on the negatives with Tebow and didnt bother to mention that the WHOLE team played bad...not just the QB.

Now that the WHOLE team plays well...many blow off what the QB did well. I'm not saying he had a "great" game or that he is the reason we won...but his play and the play of the rest of the team is what makes us or breaks us.

So, I will say the title of this thread is incorrect. ONE man does not make a difference...good or bad. The team does

Welcome to the world of sports talk radio.

[camdisco24]

I'm not a Tebow hater, nor am I swinging from his sack. But one thing that I thought was a bit ridiculous in the Miami and Detroit games is how people focused on the negatives with Tebow and didnt bother to mention that the WHOLE team played bad...not just the QB.

Now that the WHOLE team plays well...many blow off what the QB did well. I'm not saying he had a "great" game or that he is the reason we won...but his play and the play of the rest of the team is what makes us or breaks us.

So, I will say the title of this thread is incorrect. ONE man does not make a difference...good or bad. The team does

Exactly my thoughts, you just said it better! :lol: Yesterday was one of the best team efforts I've seen in weeks, maybe years. Tebow may have contributed to that, but the TEAM responded amazingly.

[TXBRONC]

Sorry it wasn't just Tebow making a different. He played better than he did previously but it's myopic to say he was the difference. It was Decker that made a great catch to give Tebow his first touchdown pass of the game. It wasn't Tebow that scored two rushing touchdowns, or run a punt return back 85 yards for touchdown nor was he the one that picked off Palmer three times.

He certainly played an important part in the win but it's not like the game was put on his shoulders to win. Sobering fact, Denver didn't attempt a pass the last 21 minutes of the game.

[vandammage13]

Good team win. Offense, Defense and special teams all playing huge roles.

Not sure this would have been the same had Oakland been able to use McFadden.

I agree that things might have been different had Run DMC played...

But DMC doesn't play defense and might not have stopped us from running for 300 yards.

[TXBRONC]

I agree that things might have been different had Run DMC played...

But DMC doesn't play defense and might not have stopped us from running for 300 yards.

But Rolando McClain does and he wasn't out their either.

[vandammage13]

Sorry it wasn't just Tebow making a different. He played better than he did previously but it's myopic to say he was the difference. It was Decker that made a great catch to give Tebow his first touchdown pass of the game. It wasn't Tebow that scored two rushing touchdowns, or run a punt return back 85 yards for touchdown nor was he the one that picked off Palmer three times.

He certainly played an important part in the win but it's not like the game was put on his shoulders to win. Sobering fact, Denver didn't attempt a pass the last 21 minutes of the game.

Definitely interesting that they didn't pass, but why would you pass when you are winning the game and you are running at 8 yards per clip?

Fans often get upset when teams go away from whats working...The running game was working so I have no qualms about running the ball to eat up the clock, so long as it's working.

[TXBRONC]

Definitely interesting that they didn't pass, but why would you pass when you are winning the game and you are running at 8 yards per clip?

Fans often get upset when teams go away from whats working...The running game was working so I have no qualms about running the ball to eat up the clock, so long as it's working.

I'm not upset I'm pointing out a fact.

I wouldn't simply look past just because we ran the ball well.

[lgenf]

[QUOTE=camdisco24;1428786]Haven't missed a Broncos game in years. Look, I'm not saying Tebow didn't make a difference at all. I'm just careful about putting it all on one guy.

QUOTE]

YEP!

[Krugan]

Clady worries me.

Thats all i got, just happy it was a good night watching late.

[vandammage13]

I'm not a Tebow hater, nor am I swinging from his sack. But one thing that I thought was a bit ridiculous in the Miami and Detroit games is how people focused on the negatives with Tebow and didnt bother to mention that the WHOLE team played bad...not just the QB.

Now that the WHOLE team plays well...many blow off what the QB did well. I'm not saying he had a "great" game or that he is the reason we won...but his play and the play of the rest of the team is what makes us or breaks us.

So, I will say the title of this thread is incorrect. ONE man does not make a difference...good or bad. The team does

If you don't think one man can make a difference then how do you explain the debacle of the Colts this year?

One man doesn't make a team but he can make a huge difference for sure...

[TXBRONC]

If you don't think one man can make a difference then how do you explain the debacle of the Colts this year?

One man doesn't make a team but he can make a huge difference for sure...

The Patriots had the same thing happen four years ago but they still went 11-5.

[Nomad]

If you don't think one man can make a difference then how do you explain the debacle of the Colts this year?

One man doesn't make a team but he can make a huge difference for sure...

They've given up as a team. Watching yesterday, none of those guys look interested in playing.....just my observation!

[TXBRONC]

They've given up as a team. Watching yesterday, none of those guys look interested in playing.....just my observation!

I agree. It looks like they packed it in several weeks ago.

[Tned]

He certainly played an important part in the win but it's not like the game was put on his shoulders to win. Sobering fact, Denver didn't attempt a pass the last 21 minutes of the game.

I heard that on Vic and Gary this morning as well. I think you need to put that in perspective.

Tebow threw the TD to Royal. Then, on the next series. They did run several times, then were in 3-8 and had a delay of game. They might have thrown there, but then at 3-13 and in FG range, they just ran Tebow on a draw, which is in line with the conservative approach on 3rd and very long all day -- like the shovel passes.

Then, the next series, on the first play, McGahee scores the 60 yard TD.

The next series, they ran a couple times, and then had 2nd and 9 on their own 38 and Tebow under center dropped back to pass the ball and was sacked (they were attempting to pass, but it wasn't an official pass attempt due to the sack).

After a personal fould gives them first down, there is a good first down run and then are 2nd and 2 and they try a Tebow run up the middle that loses a yard. The next play, it's real hard to tell if he dropped took one look and tucked and ran, or if it was a designed run (they put it in the books as a run).

Boom, after Oakland has a series and punts, Royal returns a punt for a TD.

Next series, Tebow has one of those big option runs, then McGahee has a 17 yard run, then Oak has an offside, 1st and 5 McGahee runs for 3. 2nd and 2, McGahee has a 24 yard TD run.

The point with all of that is that there was at least one time in there when they attempted a pass, but the runs were very successful and they didn't find themselves in a passing situation very often. There were only a couple spots where they could/should have attempted a pass. Most notably on the 3rd and 3 after Tebow lost a yard on the 2nd and 2.

Anyway, I don't think it's as bad as the "didn't attempt a pass in last 21 minutes" would indicate, plus it isn't even accurate, since he was sacked attempting a pass at 11:06 in the 4th, so at minimum it should be "didn't attempt a pass in the last 11 minutes of the game."


Sorry it wasn't just Tebow making a different. He played better than he did previously but it's myopic to say he was the difference. It was Decker that made a great catch to give Tebow his first touchdown pass of the game. It wasn't Tebow that scored two rushing touchdowns, or run a punt return back 85 yards for touchdown nor was he the one that picked off Palmer three times.

As to the team effort. There is no question that it was a team win. I think what the OP was getting at and what Elway and Fox were asked about after the Miami win, is whether the play of the QB can spark a team. Elway said, it definitely does. A number of players on the Broncos defense said the same thing after the Miami game.

How much of an impact his play had, is impossible to quantify. However, it's hard to imagine that his big plays, the hits he took in the pocket, standing on the sideline with the split lip, didn't get the rest of the team just a little more pumped up.

Another note. In Miami, the Broncos became the first team ever (post merger) to come back from 15 points down with 3:00 minutes left in the game.

This morning, I missed exactly what he said, but I think Vic said that this was the first time a Broncos team ever scored 31 points in the second half, or the first time in a VERY long time. I know he said that all of those great Elway/TD teams with the high flying offense, never scored 31 points in the second half.

Now, it obviously wasn't all the offense, but the fact remains scoring 31 points in a half is not a typical occurrence.

[Fullback32]

Tebow is a stop-gap for the bleeding that was under Orton. Nice team win and the gashing of the Raiders run defense was good. Nice running Wills, nice work line...for a change (thought the Clady holds are getting old). The blown coverage on the Royal TD helped a lot too. I am happy about this win...make no mistake.

However, this stat is the most telling: Tebow passing yards:124. Tebow rushing yards 118. Add to it, how many times were rushs or QB draws called on third down situations, even as short a 3rd and 5? Why no slants, play actions, etc? It is clear that Tebow is not trusted to make those types of plays. That, in of itself, is an indictment against him being any sort of long term solution. You cannot win championships in the NFL these days without a strong passing game....period.

BTW, vandammage13, you aren't seriously trying to equate the starting of Tebow with the loss of Manning in the Colts woes are you?

[TXBRONC]

I heard that on Vic and Gary this morning as well. I think you need to put that in perspective.

Tebow threw the TD to Royal. Then, on the next series. They did run several times, then were in 3-8 and had a delay of game. They might have thrown there, but then at 3-13 and in FG range, they just ran Tebow on a draw, which is in line with the conservative approach on 3rd and very long all day -- like the shovel passes.

Then, the next series, on the first play, McGahee scores the 60 yard TD.

The next series, they ran a couple times, and then had 2nd and 9 on their own 38 and Tebow under center dropped back to pass the ball and was sacked (they were attempting to pass, but it wasn't an official pass attempt due to the sack).

After a personal fould gives them first down, there is a good first down run and then are 2nd and 2 and they try a Tebow run up the middle that loses a yard. The next play, it's real hard to tell if he dropped took one look and tucked and ran, or if it was a designed run (they put it in the books as a run).

Boom, after Oakland has a series and punts, Royal returns a punt for a TD.

Next series, Tebow has one of those big option runs, then McGahee has a 17 yard run, then Oak has an offside, 1st and 5 McGahee runs for 3. 2nd and 2, McGahee has a 24 yard TD run.

The point with all of that is that there was at least one time in there when they attempted a pass, but the runs were very successful and they didn't find themselves in a passing situation very often. There were only a couple spots where they could/should have attempted a pass. Most notably on the 3rd and 3 after Tebow lost a yard on the 2nd and 2.

Anyway, I don't think it's as bad as the "didn't attempt a pass in last 21 minutes" would indicate, plus it isn't even accurate, since he was sacked attempting a pass at 11:06 in the 4th, so at minimum it should be "didn't attempt a pass in the last 11 minutes of the game."



As to the team effort. There is no question that it was a team win. I think what the OP was getting at and what Elway and Fox were asked about after the Miami win, is whether the play of the QB can spark a team. Elway said, it definitely does. A number of players on the Broncos defense said the same thing after the Miami game.

How much of an impact his play had, is impossible to quantify. However, it's hard to imagine that his big plays, the hits he took in the pocket, standing on the sideline with the split lip, didn't get the rest of the team just a little more pumped up.

Another note. In Miami, the Broncos became the first team ever (post merger) to come back from 15 points down with 3:00 minutes left in the game.

This morning, I missed exactly what he said, but I think Vic said that this was the first time a Broncos team ever scored 31 points in the second half, or the first time in a VERY long time. I know he said that all of those great Elway/TD teams with the high flying offense, never scored 31 points in the second half.

Now, it obviously wasn't all the offense, but the fact remains scoring 31 points in a half is not a typical occurrence.

Fair enough.

Tebow did do some good things and while mentioned Tebow being a spark he also he doesn't think a team can win consistently with a quarterback only completes 50% of pass.

That said this was team win offense, defense, and special teams and Tebow was certainly played a big part in the win.

It was mentioned this is first time in team history that the Broncos have scored 31 point in second half of football game.

Also you have to go back to the mid to late seventies to have quarterback and running back both rush for 100 yards or more in the same game.

[T.K.O.]

I heard that on Vic and Gary this morning as well. I think you need to put that in perspective.

Tebow threw the TD to Royal. Then, on the next series. They did run several times, then were in 3-8 and had a delay of game. They might have thrown there, but then at 3-13 and in FG range, they just ran Tebow on a draw, which is in line with the conservative approach on 3rd and very long all day -- like the shovel passes.

Then, the next series, on the first play, McGahee scores the 60 yard TD.

The next series, they ran a couple times, and then had 2nd and 9 on their own 38 and Tebow under center dropped back to pass the ball and was sacked (they were attempting to pass, but it wasn't an official pass attempt due to the sack).

After a personal fould gives them first down, there is a good first down run and then are 2nd and 2 and they try a Tebow run up the middle that loses a yard. The next play, it's real hard to tell if he dropped took one look and tucked and ran, or if it was a designed run (they put it in the books as a run).

Boom, after Oakland has a series and punts, Royal returns a punt for a TD.

Next series, Tebow has one of those big option runs, then McGahee has a 17 yard run, then Oak has an offside, 1st and 5 McGahee runs for 3. 2nd and 2, McGahee has a 24 yard TD run.

The point with all of that is that there was at least one time in there when they attempted a pass, but the runs were very successful and they didn't find themselves in a passing situation very often. There were only a couple spots where they could/should have attempted a pass. Most notably on the 3rd and 3 after Tebow lost a yard on the 2nd and 2.

Anyway, I don't think it's as bad as the "didn't attempt a pass in last 21 minutes" would indicate, plus it isn't even accurate, since he was sacked attempting a pass at 11:06 in the 4th, so at minimum it should be "didn't attempt a pass in the last 11 minutes of the game."



As to the team effort. There is no question that it was a team win. I think what the OP was getting at and what Elway and Fox were asked about after the Miami win, is whether the play of the QB can spark a team. Elway said, it definitely does. A number of players on the Broncos defense said the same thing after the Miami game.

How much of an impact his play had, is impossible to quantify. However, it's hard to imagine that his big plays, the hits he took in the pocket, standing on the sideline with the split lip, didn't get the rest of the team just a little more pumped up.

Another note. In Miami, the Broncos became the first team ever (post merger) to come back from 15 points down with 3:00 minutes left in the game.

This morning, I missed exactly what he said, but I think Vic said that this was the first time a Broncos team ever scored 31 points in the second half, or the first time in a VERY long time. I know he said that all of those great Elway/TD teams with the high flying offense, never scored 31 points in the second half.

Now, it obviously wasn't all the offense, but the fact remains scoring 31 points in a half is not a typical occurrence.

Tned, do you have time to do another comparison of release time for Tebow?
i was wondering if he improved at all on getting rid of the ball quickly ?
it just seems to me that our O-line is getting shredded on passing plays ,it looked like when he had an xtra second he was far more accurate but i was drinking beer and yelling a lot so i'm not sure:D:beer:

[claymore]

Tned, do you have time to do another comparison of release time for Tebow?
i was wondering if he improved at all on getting rid of the ball quickly ?
it just seems to me that our O-line is getting shredded on passing plays ,it looked like when he had an xtra second he was far more accurate but i was drinking beer and yelling a lot so i'm not sure:D:beer:

I dont know how much time he had per snap... But, I noticed a couple of times him stepping up in the pocket vs running around lik a chicken with his head cut off.

[BeefStew25]

Tebows punt return and three picks were awesome.

[vandammage13]

The Patriots had the same thing happen four years ago but they still went 11-5.

And missed the playoffs...

The next year Brady comes back and they go 16-0 in the regular season...

See the difference he made?

Not saying Tebow is as big of a difference maker as Brady or Manning, but just pointing out that 1 guy can/does make a difference.

[vandammage13]

They've given up as a team. Watching yesterday, none of those guys look interested in playing.....just my observation!

Kind of like how this team has been dead in the water for 2 years and had given up with Orton...

And now they are playing competitive football with pretty much just a change at 1 position.

[weazel]

Oakland abandoned their running game... so I guess ONE MAN does make a difference... the offensive coordinator in Oakland.

[Thnikkaman]

Sss

[weazel]

I seriously thought this thread was about McGahee before I opened it... I should have known though.

[Tned]

Tebows punt return and three picks were awesome.

Next time Tebow muffs a punt snap, he's probably better off taking the safety rather than giving them the ball on the 15 on downs.

[broncohead]

Mcfadden not playing made a huge difference

[Agent of Orange]

Mcfadden not playing made a huge difference

Yeah but you can also say the same about Tebow playing instead of Orton and McGahee playing instead of Moreno.

[Juriga72]

And missed the playoffs...

The next year Brady comes back and they go 16-0 in the regular season...

See the difference he made?

Not saying Tebow is as big of a difference maker as Brady or Manning, but just pointing out that 1 guy can/does make a difference.

Vince Young came in for the Titans and changed the whole season around.

2009 they started 0-6 and went 8-2 with him...

Heck look at some 6th round draft pick came in for a Pro Bowler in New England in 2001...:)

[vandammage13]

Vince Young came in for the Titans and changed the whole season around.

2009 they started 0-6 and went 8-2 with him...

Heck look at some 6th round draft pick came in for a Pro Bowler in New England in 2001...:)

If VY had his head on straight I think he could have been a very successful QB.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Proof ONE man does make a difference
Broncos with Orton under center:

1-4 record
Offensive Turnovers: 13
Defensive Turnovers: 5
Rushing Yards per Game: 86 yds
Points Per Game: 18.2


Broncos with Tebow under center:

2-1 record
Offensive Turnovers: 4
Defensive turnovers: 6
Rushing Yards a game: 223yds
Points per Game: 22 pts


I could go and calculate his last three starts last year which would increase all his numbers, but don't have too much time. I think this is clear enough to prove the point.

As of right now, Tebow's stats are better than Orton's, and if that is all that you are concerned with - I will give you that. But, with your thread title - Proof one man does make a difference - #7 carried the Broncos on his back to 3 superbowls - however, he could not win those SBs by himself. Obviously, the ultimate goal in the NFL is to win SBs, and that takes an entire team effort, regardless what the QB's stats were in regular season games. Also, this past Sunday's win was a total team effort - not one man's effort only.

[TXBRONC]

And missed the playoffs...

The next year Brady comes back and they go 16-0 in the regular season...

See the difference he made?

Not saying Tebow is as big of a difference maker as Brady or Manning, but just pointing out that 1 guy can/does make a difference.

And usually 11-5 gets you into the playoffs so that's silly argument.

Also you have ass backward they went 16-0 the year before.

If Tebow can't be that kind of a difference maker why the hell would I want him as the starter? I'm hoping Denver finds their next franchise quarterback. Maybe you're willing settle for sloppy seconds but I'm not.

That said I hope Tebow can develop into a legitimate franchise quarterback because that's how win championships.

[Tned]

Yeah but you can also say the same about Tebow playing instead of Orton and McGahee playing instead of Moreno.

I think it's safe to say that nobody believes that McGahee would have racked up as many rushing yards on Sunday if there wasn't the threat of Tebow running on those zone reads.

[vandammage13]

And usually 11-5 gets you into the playoffs so that's silly argument.

Also you have ass backward they went 16-0 the year before.

If Tebow can't be that kind of a difference maker why the hell would I want him as the starter? I'm hoping Denver finds their next franchise quarterback. Maybe you're willing settle for sloppy seconds but I'm not.

That said I hope Tebow can develop into a legitimate franchise quarterback because that's how win championships.

Ah..you are right I did have it backwards..

Still, doesn't really change the crux of the point. Without Brady they were 5 games worse...Thats a HUGE difference.

[Cugel]

I could go and calculate his last three starts last year which would increase all his numbers, but don't have too much time. I think this is clear enough to prove the point.

Too bad the one man who matters, John Elway, isn't going to be impressed by Teboner stats based arguments like this one when next draft day comes around. :ranger:

[Elevation inc]

I think Tim does a surprisingly good job of protecting the football, especially if you consider the pressure he sees on every play. He has certainly done a good job of that. I give us about a ZERO PERCENT chance of beating Oakland today with Kyle Orton at QB, so I think we are better with Tebow, but he needs to keep improving.

Im stoked we are past orton and on to tebow, wins mean more to me than stats and thats what we are seeing team wins now instead of the orton to lloyd show....but the bolded is very much true tebow needs to improve as a passer and qb if he wants to keep the job next year. I have no doubt we will be drafting competition for him in rds 2-3 since both quinn and orton will be gonethat being said a full off-season may be just what he needs to become that passer in a tailored offense for him.....i love how fox is actually showing he can adjust for a change maybe he is the right guy for the job....

[Thestrategist1]

Here is my take on the Broncos under Tebow, Hes a very good leader.

Not just on the field, where he gives everything hes got and plays everydown like its his last. We all know this to be true.

Its what he does everyday to earn this team! He gets to practice early, leaves practice late, works hard with his team mates and coaches day in and day out so he can get better. He has bore the brunt of there one lose and gave his team mates credit for the victories.They gave everyone the day off Monday but who showed up on Monday Morning? Tebow!

I think his team mates see what this guy has taken through his 3 starts this season, the media, Fans, Elway, Fox, the media, it has been absolute insanity and in some cases outright hatred toward this kid, since he stepped on the field, half way through an atrocious outing by a QB who fits every experts idea of an NFL pocket passing quarterback!

He has dealt with all this with the utmost grace and resilience, it is unmirrored by anyone I have seen in well, Forever... I think his team mates see how hes dealt with all this scrutiny, combined with his practice work ethic, willingness to learn from coaches and team mates plus his absolute desire to win football games!!! They have responded to him and have given him there respect and will play every down with the same ferocity and desire as he does. Its a complete mindset turn around from Orton..

Remember football is a game of inches and when a team has a Leader who will fight and claw with his finger nails for that inch, then in time you can look at the guy next to him and he too will fight and die for that inch with him..

Stats are for Baseball fans and That is how 1 man changes a football TEAM.

[BroncoTech]

As of right now, Tebow's stats are better than Orton's, and if that is all that you are concerned with - I will give you that. But, with your thread title - Proof one man does make a difference - #7 carried the Broncos on his back to 3 super bowls - however, he could not win those SBs by himself. Obviously, the ultimate goal in the NFL is to win SBs, and that takes an entire team effort, regardless what the QB's stats were in regular season games. Also, this past Sunday's win was a total team effort - not one man's effort only.

I was going to make the case that one man, TD turned the Broncos super bowl fate around on comparable teams at QB, dependable receivers and a decent D.

[Locnar]

Tebow did look cool spittin blood on the sidelines..

Pretty badass if you ask me :coffee:

[weazel]

Tebow did look cool spittin blood on the sidelines..

Pretty badass if you ask me :coffee:

not as badass as OaklandRaider

[NightTerror218]

Too bad the one man who matters, John Elway, isn't going to be impressed by Teboner stats based arguments like this one when next draft day comes around. :ranger:

HE WILL BE IMPRESSED WITH WINS

If we keep getting them, then who cares as long as we are winning. Winning is what I care about and getting to the SB. If Tebow can improve enough to be a confident pocket passer and a threat on the ground I will be happy. If he is just a FB and can not make the throws then we will be in trouble down the road.

[wayninja]

HE WILL BE IMPRESSED WITH WINS

If we keep getting them, then who cares as long as we are winning. Winning is what I care about and getting to the SB. If Tebow can improve enough to be a confident pocket passer and a threat on the ground I will be happy. If he is just a FB and can not make the throws then we will be in trouble down the road.

If we are winning because our defense steps up or our running game/McGahee blows up and Tebow is still looking 'raw'. Wins won't matter. Tebow needs to be seen as a large contributor to those wins.

Don't think anyone can dispute his contributions against Miami (although he was largely responsible for needing to make a heroic comeback in the first place), but he was definitely second-fiddle to McGahee against Croakland. His passing was not showcased. He did fine, and there was improvement, but there needs to be more in games we win.

[NightTerror218]

If we are winning because our defense steps up or our running game/McGahee blows up and Tebow is still looking 'raw'. Wins won't matter. Tebow needs to be seen as a large contributor to those wins.

Don't think anyone can dispute his contributions against Miami (although he was largely responsible for needing to make a heroic comeback in the first place), but he was definitely second-fiddle to McGahee against Croakland. His passing was not showcased. He did fine, and there was improvement, but there needs to be more in games we win.

Throwing for 2 TDs a game and have 90 rushing yards a game to go with 170 passing yards. And little to no TOs.

The one thing about the new zone read is that is minimizes where he has to read the defense to help limp him along reading defenses. And based on the 300 yards last game he was reading well on whether to keep it or hand it off.

[Elevation inc]

i dont get this i could care less what tebow throws for as long as we win, and if we are winning becasue we are rushing for 200yds a game, controlling the clock and keeping the d fresh i see no issue with that at all....

I mean Plummer, Griese, Cutler, Orton, Quinn, Simms all these qbs were better passers outta college and in the pros and look what it got us.....1 decent playoff run since 1998-1999, 3 different head coaches, 6 defensive scheme changes and coordinators, numerous talent constantly being pushed out the door....

I mean lets be real if this read option style proves effective and tebow improves even moderately as a passer to 50% accuracy and its working i could care less if he passes for 300 yds, the guy knows how to make plays, insipre his team, be a clutch player and lead, and he also is careful with the ball and comes back strong from horrible games....sounds to me he deserves a shot to run this team for at least a year or 2 since the last 6 so called NFL!!!! passers we have had failed outside of maybe plummer, who go figure was also a raw passer and had a bootlegged passing system, a top 5 defense, and better Rb core to help him in denver...go figure.....

[BroncoJoe]

So, I didn't read this whole thread. Was there proof?

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[wayninja]

Throwing for 2 TDs a game and have 90 rushing yards a game to go with 170 passing yards. And little to no TOs.

The one thing about the new zone read is that is minimizes where he has to read the defense to help limp him along reading defenses. And based on the 300 yards last game he was reading well on whether to keep it or hand it off.

I'm not sure where you came up with those numbers, but those were not his stats against Oakland...

Again, I'm not saying hid didn't do better, it was lightyears ahead of the first 2 starts of the season, but it needs to get even better.

Having good games against mediocre and bad opponents, but poor games against good opponents just isn't going to cut it. I know there's more phases to the game than just the QB, and he needs help to do it, just sayin...

[wayninja]

i dont get this i could care less what tebow throws for as long as we win, and if we are winning becasue we are rushing for 200yds a game, controlling the clock and keeping the d fresh i see no issue with that at all....

I agree. However, I cant' help but feel the front office might conclude that we could still do all of those things AND have a better QB. Tebow still needs to prove he belongs to the offensive successes. Oakland was a good first step, but still a ways to go.


I mean Plummer, Griese, Cutler, Orton, Quinn, Simms all these qbs were better passers outta college and in the pros and look what it got us.....1 decent playoff run since 1998-1999, 3 different head coaches, 6 defensive scheme changes and coordinators, numerous talent constantly being pushed out the door....

It's just not apples to apples. They had a different supporting casts and were playing against different teams. It's just not fair to mix-match players in some sort of football fantasy...


I mean lets be real if this read option style proves effective and tebow improves even moderately as a passer to 50% accuracy and its working i could care less if he passes for 300 yds, the guy knows how to make plays, insipre his team, be a clutch player and lead, and he also is careful with the ball and comes back strong from horrible games....sounds to me he deserves a shot to run this team for at least a year or 2 since the last 6 so called NFL!!!! passers we have had failed outside of maybe plummer, who go figure was also a raw passer and had a bootlegged passing system, a top 5 defense, and better Rb core to help him in denver...go figure.....

I agree with you again, I just don't think the FO will have that faith unless his passing game improves. It's just that simple.

[Elevation inc]

I agree. However, I cant' help but feel the front office might conclude that we could still do all of those things AND have a better QB. Tebow still needs to prove he belongs to the offensive successes. Oakland was a good first step, but still a ways to go.



It's just not apples to apples. They had a different supporting casts and were playing against different teams. It's just not fair to mix-match players in some sort of football fantasy...



I agree with you again, I just don't think the FO will have that faith unless his passing game improves. It's just that simple.




well i also willing to understand tebow has alot to prove, see for me Im on the fence i find him exciting yet raw...so i am willing to give a starting qb who is 3-3 in his first 6 starts the benefit of the doubt especially after he showed he could pass some last year....i think he just needs some consistency in coachin gand scheme and the improvement will happen. people need to be fair when judging tim and yet again it seems its 1 side or the other....6 games is to small a sample size whether he threw for 300 yds or 100 to determine his future.

I also feel we need to draft his competition and let him weber and the draft pick do work next year and see what happens.....i dont have a issue with that at all. but to say now he isnt the answer is in my mind jumping the gun on a 6 game sample size where so much turmoil has enveloped this team its really hard to know just what we are....this team is still looking for a identity....so its gonna take time but at least we are winning some games, being compettive and showing fire for a chnage, that alone is enough for me to be willing to ride it out and see what happens. it doesnt mean though that i belive tebow is our next super bowl qb in denver....

[bcbronc]

Kind of like how this team has been dead in the water for 2 years and had given up with Orton...

And now they are playing competitive football with pretty much just a change at 1 position.

Says more about Orton than Tebow imo.

[Tned]

Don't think anyone can dispute his contributions against Miami (although he was largely responsible for needing to make a heroic comeback in the first place), but he was definitely second-fiddle to McGahee against Croakland. His passing was not showcased. He did fine, and there was improvement, but there needs to be more in games we win.

This is false. It was clear that much of McGahee's success in Oakland was due to the defense being concerned about Tebow. Broncos running total and McGahee's running total are up significantly since Tebow took over.

McGahee has been running great, I'm not trying to take anything away from him, but it wouldn't be accurate to fail to acknowledge that Tebow's running thread is helping McGahee.

[wayninja]

This is false. It was clear that much of McGahee's success in Oakland was due to the defense being concerned about Tebow. Broncos running total and McGahee's running total are up significantly since Tebow took over.

McGahee has been running great, I'm not trying to take anything away from him, but it wouldn't be accurate to fail to acknowledge that Tebow's running thread is helping McGahee.

No, it's not false. Thanks for that though. Tebow didn't gain the huge yards/plays that McGahee did and was second fiddle on the ground attack. There's no 'shame' in that and there is no slight to Tebow there. It's just a simple fact.

Don't get me wrong, he did great on the ground. Over 100 yards is fantastic for a RB let alone a QB, but my point is that the throwing was not the highlight of his game. He made some good throws and some poor ones and that simply needs to get better. The FO must believe that if the running game gets stuffed, Tebow can make the adjustment and beat the other team with his arm. He's not there yet.

[vhatever]

No, it's not false. Thanks for that though. Tebow didn't gain the huge yards/plays that McGahee did and was second fiddle on the ground attack. There's no 'shame' in that and there is no slight to Tebow there. It's just a simple fact.

Don't get me wrong, he did great on the ground. Over 100 yards is fantastic for a RB let alone a QB, but my point is that the throwing was not the highlight of his game. He made some good throws and some poor ones and that simply needs to get better. The FO must believe that if the running game gets stuffed, Tebow can make the adjustment and beat the other team with his arm. He's not there yet.

Did you notice on the 60+ yard Willis run that all the linebackers had magically vanished from the camera's view? Poof. Magic.

well, that wasn't magic. They were all thinking tebow had the ball and were waiting for him to run around the other side of the scrimmage line. If that was kyle orton, willis would have been tackled at the line of scrimmage.

Even counting that 60 yard run, tebow still ran for more yards per carry.

[jlarsiii]

Didn't read through any of this thread, but I have to assume that we are talking about McGahee. Remove him from the Oakland game and I believe the outcome would have been completely different.

No McGahee equals entire Oakland D focusing on Tebow only which means no big runs etc...

[slim]

So, I didn't read this whole thread. Was there proof?

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

I don't know Joe....I don't know.

[wayninja]

Fallout...

Gee, is that how the option works? Thanks for the condescension and completely ignoring my point.

[vhatever]

Didn't read through any of this thread, but I have to assume that we are talking about McGahee. Remove him from the Oakland game and I believe the outcome would have been completely different.

No McGahee equals entire Oakland D focusing on Tebow only which means no big runs etc...

Entirely depends on who else you put in there to run the ball. Or are you seriously suggesting tebow should play without a running back?

[Slick]

Didn't read through any of this thread, but I have to assume that we are talking about McGahee. Remove him from the Oakland game and I believe the outcome would have been completely different.

No McGahee equals entire Oakland D focusing on Tebow only which means no big runs etc...

Remove McGahee from the Oakland game? Why? This post makes absolutely no sense to me.

[vhatever]

Gee, is that how the option works? Thanks for the condescension and completely ignoring my point.

I don't believe you had a point. You had an opinion, one I thoroughly debunked.

[jlarsiii]

Remove McGahee from the Oakland game? Why? This post makes absolutely no sense to me.

i.e. if he were injured and unable to play, hence the term "remove him from the game". It is hypothetical to show his importance in that particular game.

[jlarsiii]

Entirely depends on who else you put in there to run the ball. Or are you seriously suggesting tebow should play without a running back?

Really? I was not implying playing without a RB. I was implying that McGahee might be, just might be a tad bit better then the other sad sack RBs we have on this team.

[TXBRONC]

No, it's not false. Thanks for that though. Tebow didn't gain the huge yards/plays that McGahee did and was second fiddle on the ground attack. There's no 'shame' in that and there is no slight to Tebow there. It's just a simple fact.

Don't get me wrong, he did great on the ground. Over 100 yards is fantastic for a RB let alone a QB, but my point is that the throwing was not the highlight of his game. He made some good throws and some poor ones and that simply needs to get better. The FO must believe that if the running game gets stuffed, Tebow can make the adjustment and beat the other team with his arm. He's not there yet.

There are a lot reason that McGahee did well and one of the was that the Oakland defense was focusing on Tebow. McGahee 60 yard run is prime example. The defense was flowing in the direction that Tebow was running. That's one the reasons that there was no one in the middle of field when McGahee got to the second level. As you said there is no shame in being being second fiddle. According to Hue Jackson they had someone mirror Tebow the entire game.

[vhatever]

Really? I was not implying playing without a RB. I was implying that McGahee might be, just might be a tad bit better then the other sad sack RBs we have on this team.

Well, I don't think moreno would have had a 160 yard game, I do think he could have done enough damage on the ground to beat the raiders in that particular game.

[NightTerror218]

There are a lot reason that McGahee did well and one of the was that the Oakland defense was focusing on Tebow. McGahee 60 yard run is prime example. The defense was flowing in the direction that Tebow was running. That's one the reasons that there was no one in the middle of field when McGahee got to the second level. As you said there is no shame in being being second fiddle. According to Hue Jackson they had someone mirror Tebow the entire game.

One advantage of TT he draws attention from the defense, even without the ball in hands.

[TXBRONC]

And usually 11-5 gets you into the playoffs so that's silly argument.

Also you have ass backward they went 16-0 the year before.

If Tebow can't be that kind of a difference maker why the hell would I want him as the starter? I'm hoping Denver finds their next franchise quarterback. Maybe you're willing settle for sloppy seconds but I'm not.

That said I hope Tebow can develop into a legitimate franchise quarterback because that's how win championships.


Ah..you are right I did have it backwards..

Still, doesn't really change the crux of the point. Without Brady they were 5 games worse...Thats a HUGE difference.

I'm sorry for saying ass backwards. I should not have put it that way.

Yes they were four games worse than the season before including the playoffs. The point is even with Brady out they were still well above .500 with a chance to make the playoffs.

Yes they were five game worse than the previous year but chance were slim that they were going to go through another regular season 16-0 even with a healthy Tom Brady.

[rcsodak]

Yep. Mcgahee IS the man!

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[wayninja]

There are a lot reason that McGahee did well and one of the was that the Oakland defense was focusing on Tebow. McGahee 60 yard run is prime example. The defense was flowing in the direction that Tebow was running. That's one the reasons that there was no one in the middle of field when McGahee got to the second level. As you said there is no shame in being being second fiddle. According to Hue Jackson they had someone mirror Tebow the entire game.

Absolutely, no question. McGahee was so successful because Tebow was also successful. In a traditional ground attack, he would not have fared so well. Some of the credit for McGahee's success absolutely goes to the fact that they had to respect Tebows running so much.

Still, the point wasn't whether or not Tebow is good on the ground. Everyone knows that he is and even his detractors don't try to slight his running game. The question that everyone, and especially the FO has is, can he beat you with his arm if that's the only way to win?

The win against Oakland didn't speak to that because it didn't have to.

[Lancane]

Elway was proof that one man makes a difference, Tebow is proof that one man can divide a fan base, a sport and a nation without being a good quarterback!

:coffee:

[wayninja]

Elway was proof that one man makes a difference, Tebow is proof that one man can divide a fan base, a sport and a nation without being a good quarterback!

:coffee:

I somewhat agree, but I'm not necessarily convinced that such division isn't necessary or helpful given the state of our team.

[Tned]

Elway was proof that one man makes a difference, Tebow is proof that one man can divide a fan base, a sport and a nation without being a good quarterback!

:coffee:

Did the United States fall into another civil war without me realizing it? :confused: Divide a nation? Over-dramatize much?

Even Elway, who clearly isn't sold on Tebow and Fox have both talked about how Tebow has sparked the team and other players, especially defensive ones, have talked about the boost and excitement Tebow has brought.

The jury is still out on the kid, but man, until the jury returns a verdict, you could attempt to show a shade of objectivity on this subject.

[vhatever]

Elway was proof that one man makes a difference, Tebow is proof that one man can divide a fan base, a sport and a nation without being a good quarterback!


You mean the 45% completion rate twice as many interceptions as touchdowns throwin' elway or the super bowl winning elway? Only thing that serperated them was time, as rookies Tebow craps all over elway in so many ways it's ridiculous.

[Elevation inc]

You mean the 45% completion rate twice as many interceptions as touchdowns throwin' elway or the super bowl winning elway? Only thing that serperated them was time, as rookies Tebow craps all over elway in so many ways it's ridiculous.

this is what bugs me the most its like elway forgets his first couple years, add in the fact that he prima donnaned his way to denver, which was bad ass for us...but come on man really elway.....6 games folks thats what tebow has under his belt, he also was relegated by josh when josh found out he wasnt a great passer....people forget his reps werent even either....the guy has six starts and is 3-3...jay cutler had a 7-4 team he took over and proceeded to choke us out of the playoffs his first starts for example....give the guy time to keep improving, draft a qb in rd 2 for competition and stop the dividing of the fan base....end of story!!!!!!

our offense needs OL depth, another RB, somone to take over the 1 WR spot, and a QB to battle tebow....our defense needs a DT and a CB...i have no doubt we can get that next year and turn this team into a playoff team even with tebow at QB....dont forget we have a legit full off-season next year, and tebow will be greatly benefited by that. even if we decide to draft our future franchise qb, a playmaker like tebow belongs on this team, he leads, he inspires, and he makes plays anyway he can....he is a football player with football talent, the passing is just a work in progress but to say he doesnt add to the future of this team means EFX has blinders on.....

[Lancane]

this is what bugs me the most its like elway forgets his first couple years, add in the fact that he prima donnaned his way to denver, which was bad ass for us...but come on man really elway.....6 games folks thats what tebow has under his belt, he also was relegated by josh when josh found out he wasnt a great passer....people forget his reps werent even either....the guy has six starts and is 3-3...jay cutler had a 7-4 team he took over and proceeded to choke us out of the playoffs his first starts for example....give the guy time to keep improving, draft a qb in rd 2 for competition and stop the dividing of the fan base....end of story!!!!!!

our offense needs OL depth, another RB, somone to take over the 1 WR spot, and a QB to battle tebow....our defense needs a DT and a CB...i have no doubt we can get that next year and turn this team into a playoff team even with tebow at QB....dont forget we have a legit full off-season next year, and tebow will be greatly benefited by that. even if we decide to draft our future franchise qb, a playmaker like tebow belongs on this team, he leads, he inspires, and he makes plays anyway he can....he is a football player with football talent, the passing is just a work in progress but to say he doesnt add to the future of this team means EFX has blinders on.....

Elway showed his meddle early on and his ability to be an efficient quarterback in the passing game. Yes, he struggled, but not like this. Tebow's turnover ratio is the only thing that is boosting his QBR (which the Tebowites seem to be running with to make their argument), and as I've said it's hard for a defender to make a play for the ball when the receiver can not either.

I'll say it again, Tim Tebow is Ryan Leaf with legs, and I stand by that till he proves me wrong.

As you well know me and you see about eye to eye on Denver's needs, but I don't see Denver being a playoff team with Tebow, even if by chance we got in to the playoffs, I've seen poorly run spread and spread-option offenses in general fail and those offenses were ran by coaches who understood such offenses, Denver has admitted they don't really have a clue.

The key point isn't Tebow, it's Elway and what he wants to do, because whether people like it or not, he runs this damn team and that's the bottom line. And I for one don't think he's happy with the turn of events, even with wins.

As for the first sentence in your post, I don't care if a quarterback has swagger, a little attitude or even a little bit of a prima-donnaism in them, as long as they can play the position and pass the ball effectively, Tebow can do neither IMHO. Tebow's character is what makes him so popular with people, his drive as well as his charisma, without that he's really nothing more then another gimmick quarterback that did well in the collegiate ranks. Not even Vince Young or Pat White garnered so much attention and they are much the same, except and least Young has an arm and can throw the ball with decent accuracy.

[Lancane]

Did the United States fall into another civil war without me realizing it? :confused: Divide a nation? Over-dramatize much?

Even Elway, who clearly isn't sold on Tebow and Fox have both talked about how Tebow has sparked the team and other players, especially defensive ones, have talked about the boost and excitement Tebow has brought.

The jury is still out on the kid, but man, until the jury returns a verdict, you could attempt to show a shade of objectivity on this subject.

As I've told you and everyone else, I was objective at first. After his strides last season I was willing to give him a chance. But he regressed and people started to notice immediately, it wasn't some little quirk which was a slow start, for almost the entire off-season and pre-season people wondered. But for the most part, Tebow looked horrid. Then I started to wonder, how much of his success last season that originally had made me give him a chance was due in no small part to Lloyd? So I was glad we traded Lloyd, not only because we needed something in return for the loss of him after the season, but also so we had an inclination of how good Tebow was without a receiver such as Lloyd who could make outstanding catches, even on balls that are uncatchable. And I'll state it here and now, go back and watch the games, with and without Lloyd, Tebow isn't as good, without spectacular talent around him as he had at Florida or in Lloyd here, he's mediocre on a good day...period. Why is it that he looked so good in a pro-style offense last year and so awful this year in an offense that is similar and more run orientated? The answer is Brandon Lloyd, and he so bad that they're catering the offense around what makes him comfortable. That tells me a lot more I guess then it does others.

Elway could marvel the masses without tremendous talent, and a lot of people believed that Marshall made Cutler which he quickly disproved in Chicago, that is proof of a quarterback's meddle, of their ability to be good or even great. As Shannon Sharpe said, a great quarterback makes those around him better, Tebow is uplifting and he instills confidence in his teammates, but does he make them better? I don't think so. So as I said, after six and a half contests, and knowing what I know now...I've lost my objectivity. I would love for him to prove me wrong, I've never wanted someone to prove me wrong so much before...but I don't think he will.

As to the first part of your post...yes, we are in a civil war, a war of philosophies, beliefs, trends and more. He is such a polarizing figure that co-workers debate and argue, that a fan base is torn apart, and the same could be said on so many levels... In all my years I've never seen a quarterback, let alone a mediocre one command so much attention from the masses.

[Bullgator]

Lacane get it all out now. Time is running out for you.

[Lancane]

Lacane get it all out now. Time is running out for you.

Not really...

[Davii]

Lacane get it all out now. Time is running out for you.

No it's not. Tim might improve a ton, but it won't happen overnight. As long as Tim is getting better i'm happy, but it also means his detractors have even more the kvetch about.

I hope Lancane has a ton of time to kvetch, that means Tim is still starting, which means he is still improving, and more than likely we're still winning.

[lgenf]

this is what bugs me the most its like elway forgets his first couple years, .....

well then let's remind him

Rookie
123/259 for 1663 - 7 td with 14 int for a 4-6 record

Year 2
214/380 for 2598 - 18 TD with 15 int for a 12-2 record

So after almost a years worth of starting in his rookie year he played considerably better the next year

Tebow is 3 games into this year, or 6 games into his career if you like, next year could be big for Tebow, but elway didn't do shit his first year, in fact by his own stat line he should have been benched or Denver should have been looking for a real QB in the draft after his rookie year:eek:

[broncohead]

Don't forget it was a different era as well. Pass interference was different along with roughing the passer. Those stats in todays game would result in 0 wins

[Lancane]

well then let's remind him

Rookie
123/259 for 1663 - 7 td with 14 int for a 4-6 record

Year 2
214/380 for 2598 - 18 TD with 15 int for a 12-2 record

So after almost a years worth of starting in his rookie year he played considerably better the next year

Tebow is 3 games into this year, or 6 games into his career if you like, next year could be big for Tebow, but elway didn't do shit his first year, in fact by his own stat line he should have been benched or Denver should have been looking for a real QB in the draft after his rookie year:eek:

Elway was a real quarterback, Tebow is not...he's a halfback who can make half ass throws with half ass accuracy!

I'm glad you know your Broncos' history, yes Elway was 4-6 as a rookie, yes his numbers were low in what was at that time one of the more conservative offenses in the AFC. Reeves didn't know what to do with such a quality quarterback, that's why he hired Shanahan the following year who brought Alex Gibbs with him. At least for the most part he could complete more then half of his passes, Tebow can not even do that...but then again Tim is a rookie - whoops. Of course, Elway was 12-3 the following year leading Denver to a playoff berth.

If you really want to believe little Timmy is on the same level as Elway, well that's your prerogative, but you won't find many, other then those who're delusion Tebowites who will agree with you.

[BroncoTech]

If I remember correctly Elway was benched for Steve Deberg his first year. After Several games DeBerg was injured and Elway returned.

[Lancane]

If I remember correctly Elway was benched for Steve Deberg his first year. After Several games DeBerg was injured and Elway returned.

Actually Reeves pulled Elway and DeBerg, in favor of one or the other several times that season. It was like a real bad version of musical quarterbacks. Denver never knew who was starting or who would finish that game...it was rather pathetic. Most people to this day still believe that Elway should have sat his rookie year behind DeBerg, because to be honest, DeBerg did rather well.

[MOtorboat]

Don't forget it was a different era as well. Pass interference was different along with roughing the passer. Those stats in todays game would result in 0 wins

It was a completely different game.

I really don't expect our newest friends to have any clue about the differences, and that's ok...it's just not a valid comparison, no matter how much they want Tebow to be great.

[wayninja]

If you really want to believe little Timmy is on the same level as Elway, well that's your prerogative, but you won't find many, other then those who're delusion Tebowites who will agree with you.

No doubt, but how many ARE on the same level as Elway? That's a pretty tall order for any Rookie.

I'm still taking a wait and see. So far there's some good and lots of bad. Willing to see if scales come back the other way.

[Lancane]

No doubt, but how many ARE on the same level as Elway? That's a pretty tall order for any Rookie.

I'm still taking a wait and see. So far there's some good and lots of bad. Willing to see if scales come back the other way.

Well, let's be honest Ninja, he's not even on the same level as Tim Couch during his rookie season and that is simply a true unbiased fact. I'm not worried about him being or not being the next Elway, most of us older fans have come to the realization that there will only ever be one Elway, we hope to find a quarterback of his caliber or greater, but we'd settle for someone, almost anyone who is franchise capable at this point.

You know it's bad when you'd rather have Jimmy Clausen, Chad Henne, Curtis Painter, Charlie Whitehurst, A.J Feeley, John Skelton, Kerry Collins or even Jake Delhomme under center for your team.

[wayninja]

Well, let's be honest Ninja, he's not even on the same level as Tim Couch during his rookie season and that is simply a true unbiased fact. I'm not worried about him being or not being the next Elway, most of us older fans have come to the realization that there will only ever be one Elway, we hope to find a quarterback of his caliber or greater, but we'd settle for someone, almost anyone who is franchise capable at this point.

You know it's bad when you'd rather have Jimmy Clausen, Chad Henne, Curtis Painter, Charlie Whitehurst, A.J Feeley, John Skelton, Kerry Collins or even Jake Delhomme under center for your team.

:Shrugs: Maybe you would, but I wouldn't rather have any of those guys. I know those guys suck. I've seen enough good out of Tebow that I don't think it's fair to call him washed up or never-was like some of those guys on this list.

[Lancane]

:Shrugs: Maybe you would, but I wouldn't rather have any of those guys. I know those guys suck. I've seen enough good out of Tebow that I don't think it's fair to call him washed up or never-was like some of those guys on this list.

Why? Clausen has been in the league for the same amount of time as Tebow as has Skelton, granted the list was extreme a bit, but the point is valid, since their numbers are better then Tebow's own. You believe they suck, that is your perception, so what makes them incapable compared to Tebow? It's baseless, nothing more then your opinion, and that's the way of it...truth will always rest in the eyes of the beholder. And just to push the point home - unlike Tebow, their stats show they're better then him regarding key elements of the position.

[Davii]

Why? Clausen has been in the league for the same amount of time as Tebow as has Skelton, granted the list was extreme a bit, but the point is valid, since their numbers are better then Tebow's own. You believe they suck, that is your perception, so what makes them incapable compared to Tebow? It's baseless, nothing more then your opinion, and that's the way of it...truth will always rest in the eyes of the beholder. And just to push the point home - unlike Tebow, their stats show they're better then him regarding key elements of the position.

Completion percentage aside, what stats in key elements does Clausen beat Tebow?

TD's? No, Clausen had 3 in 10 games. Int's? No, Clausen had 9 (3 times the numbers of TD's). QBR? Nope again, Clausen is a meager 58 through 10 games... Wins? Can't be, the Panthers only won two games, Tebow already has three through less games...

So, got to say Lancane, I don't think your point is hitting home very well.

[tomjonesrocks]

I'll say it again, Tim Tebow is Ryan Leaf with legs, and I stand by that till he proves me wrong.

Don't understand the analogy at all. Leaf indeed had mediocre mobility. He also had a cannon arm and many desirable QB skills Tebow doesn't have. He was hailed as a prototypical franchise QB with upside higher than Peyton Manning. Unfortunately, he was a world-class idiot (both on the field and off), couldn't lead if his life depended on it, and had zero toughness. He was the biggest bust of all-time, and even if Tebow can't complete a pass the rest of his career he could never reach that lofty level of disappointment.

I don't see many similarities between Leaf and Tebow. Maybe I'm overthinking this.

I think there's got to be another NFL washout you could go with for dramatic effect that would be more apropos.

[lgenf]

How come any time someone puts up elway rookie stats, most fans on this forum take that as someone comparing the ENTIRE BODY OF WORK from elway and that someone is comparing Tebow to elway

I have no thought that Tebow will be like elway over his entire career, if he can then great and we can debate that in 15 years, but today right this minute this is all I am saying


Elway seems like he is being extremely hypocritical when it comes to what Tebow is as a QB considering he himself WAS NOT ANY Fng GOOD IN HIS first year starting

His second year with additional coaching, good offensive coord and creative play calling which played to his strength helped him become the MAN

I am NOT comparing elway to Tebow, but when you look at the stat lines from each QB I think elway needs to remember that his first year of starts didn't start out so well and his blatant refusal to have Tebows back in the media is a joke

[MOtorboat]

So, let me see if I'm understanding this...

You put up Elway's and Tebow's numbers side by side, but you're not comparing them at all?

Um, ok. It's still a completely different era.

[lgenf]

So, let me see if I'm understanding this...

You put up Elway's and Tebow's numbers side by side, but you're not comparing them at all?

Um, ok. It's still a completely different era.

MO, I didn't put up Tebows numbers at all

[BroncoJoe]

Cane, based on your last few posts, I now firmly believe you've fallen off your rocker.

Either that, or the hits to the helmet during your playing days are showing themselves.

[jlarsiii]

Cane, based on your last few posts, I now firmly believe you've fallen off your rocker.

Either that, or the hits to the helmet during your playing days are showing themselves.

I actually agree with Cane's viewpoint. I may not be as aggressive with it but I look at Tebow the same way. Right now I think he has proven to be a great FB, but I have yet to see any proof that Tebow can be a QB.

Unless he actually does show some QB skills I have little doubt that they will be drafting or acquiring a QB this coming offseason. Keep Tebow on the team for redzone and goal line situations, but get a QB that can excel in the passing game.

[Tned]

As I've told you and everyone else, I was objective at first. After his strides last season I was willing to give him a chance. But he regressed and people started to notice immediately, it wasn't some little quirk which was a slow start, for almost the entire off-season and pre-season people wondered. But for the most part, Tebow looked horrid. Then I started to wonder, how much of his success last season that originally had made me give him a chance was due in no small part to Lloyd? So I was glad we traded Lloyd, not only because we needed something in return for the loss of him after the season, but also so we had an inclination of how good Tebow was without a receiver such as Lloyd who could make outstanding catches, even on balls that are uncatchable. And I'll state it here and now, go back and watch the games, with and without Lloyd, Tebow isn't as good, without spectacular talent around him as he had at Florida or in Lloyd here, he's mediocre on a good day...period. Why is it that he looked so good in a pro-style offense last year and so awful this year in an offense that is similar and more run orientated? The answer is Brandon Lloyd, and he so bad that they're catering the offense around what makes him comfortable. That tells me a lot more I guess then it does others.

Elway could marvel the masses without tremendous talent, and a lot of people believed that Marshall made Cutler which he quickly disproved in Chicago, that is proof of a quarterback's meddle, of their ability to be good or even great. As Shannon Sharpe said, a great quarterback makes those around him better, Tebow is uplifting and he instills confidence in his teammates, but does he make them better? I don't think so. So as I said, after six and a half contests, and knowing what I know now...I've lost my objectivity. I would love for him to prove me wrong, I've never wanted someone to prove me wrong so much before...but I don't think he will.

As to the first part of your post...yes, we are in a civil war, a war of philosophies, beliefs, trends and more. He is such a polarizing figure that co-workers debate and argue, that a fan base is torn apart, and the same could be said on so many levels... In all my years I've never seen a quarterback, let alone a mediocre one command so much attention from the masses.

It's almost kickof, so I'll keep it brief.

First, the civil war thing is ridiculous.

Second, it still is "at first." He's had only six starts in his short career and only three this year. He missed his second offseason, and when they did get to go to training camp Orton took up virtually all of the first team snaps.

Third, clearly you haven't taken your own advice to go back and look at last years starts and this years. Further, you make the unfounded Lloyd comment, and completely ignore the fact that the worst he's looked in the "pro style" or under center type offense and plays was in the Miami game when he had Lloyd.

[Thestrategist1]

It's almost kickof, so I'll keep it brief.

First, the civil war thing is ridiculous.

Second, it still is "at first." He's had only six starts in his short career and only three this year. He missed his second offseason, and when they did get to go to training camp Orton took up virtually all of the first team snaps.

Third, clearly you haven't taken your own advice to go back and look at last years starts and this years. Further, you make the unfounded Lloyd comment, and completely ignore the fact that the worst he's looked in the "pro style" or under center type offense and plays was in the Miami game when he had Lloyd.

First we didnt have Lloyd in the Miami game.

Second, you are right Elway did it with little to no help on the offensive side of the ball but on that same note Elway had the orange crush defense helping him.

[Elevation inc]

wow so sad that a man with 6 starts who is helping this team win for a change is getting ridiculed....all becasue he doesnt pass pretty enough after 6 starts...lol....funny stuff....

[camdisco24]

ONE man?

Try Von Miller today.

Cassel is going to have nightmares tonight.

[vhatever]

ONE man?

Try Von Miller today.

Cassel is going to have nightmares tonight.

One whole sack? I bet Cassel is going to need professional counseling.

[MOtorboat]

One whole sack? I bet Cassel is going to need professional counseling.

It's not always about sacks. He was all over Cassel all day, forcing bad throws. I think he had 5 or 6 pressures to go with his 1 sack, and I know he knocked him down three times after he threw the ball.

[turftoad]

First we didnt have Lloyd in the Miami game.

Second, you are right Elway did it with little to no help on the offensive side of the ball but on that same note Elway had the orange crush defense helping him.

What?? How long have you been a Broncos fan? The Orange Crush "D" was pretty much before Elways time. And WAY before the Superbowl wins.

[Tned]

First we didnt have Lloyd in the Miami game.

Second, you are right Elway did it with little to no help on the offensive side of the ball but on that same note Elway had the orange crush defense helping him.

My bad with Lloyd. I was thinking of the catches he made in SD game, and was thinking it was during the comeback in Miami.

As to Elway, I think you're thinking of someone else s posts. I haven't been comparing Tebow and Elway.

[Tned]

One whole sack? I bet Cassel is going to need professional counseling.

When comments like this are made, the obvious followup question is "did you watch the game?"

[vhatever]

When comments like this are made, the obvious followup question is "did you watch the game?"

4 tackles 1 sack. OMG, Sounds more lkike tebow haters making excuses FOR A WIN,

[turftoad]

4 tackles 1 sack. OMG, Sounds more lkike tebow haters making excuses FOR A WIN,

:tsk:

[camdisco24]

4 tackles 1 sack. OMG, Sounds more lkike tebow haters making excuses FOR A WIN,

:confused: What?

Man, you gator fans really do take everything the wrong way. It's amazing that my kudos to Von Miller was taken as attack on Tebow. :coffee:

We're Broncos fans, we cheer for EVERYONE. Von was a beast today. Didn't you watch the game when the D was on the field? I mean come on man...

[vhatever]

:confused: What?

Man, you gator fans really do take everything the wrong way. It's amazing that my kudos to Von Miller was taken as attack on Tebow. :coffee:

We're Broncos fans, we cheer for EVERYONE. Von was a beast today. Didn't you watch the game when the D was on the field? I mean come on man...

I watched 1 sack and 4 tackles. Clay mathews has that game and people say he was invisible the entire game. This is intended as a lesson, stats don't mean everything. Just like tebow and his completion percentage when his wideouts keep dropping balls thrown right into their hands like they have done 2 weeks in a row now.

[camdisco24]

I watched 1 sack and 4 tackles. Clay mathews has that game and people say he was invisible the entire game. This is intended as a lesson, stats don't mean everything. Just like tebow and his completion percentage when his wideouts keep dropping balls thrown right into their hands like they have done 2 weeks in a row now.

EXACTLY. This is what the other posters and myself are referring to. Von was in Cassels grill all day. The stats may not say that, but it is what HAPPENED.

Please tell me where I said anything negative about Tebow? I was never even talking about him. Why do you feel the need to bring up anything about him in response to my post??

[Tned]

4 tackles 1 sack. OMG, Sounds more lkike tebow haters making excuses FOR A WIN,

So, I will take that as you saying you didn't watch the game. Like last week against Oakland, Von Miller hit the QB many times right after he released the ball and had a much bigger impact in the game than his stats indicate. Including knocking Cassell out of the game at the end on a play that doesn't show on the stats you are looking at.

[vhatever]

EXACTLY. This is what the other posters and myself are referring to. Von was in Cassels grill all day. The stats may not say that, but it is what HAPPENED.

Please tell me where I said anything negative about Tebow? I was never even talking about him. Why do you feel the need to bring up anything about him in response to my post??

I was pretty clear in my last post. Not going to repeat myself.

[Lancane]

So, I will take that as you saying you didn't watch the game. Like last week against Oakland, Von Miller hit the QB many times right after he released the ball and had a much bigger impact in the game than his stats indicate. Including knocking Cassell out of the game at the end on a play that doesn't show on the stats you are looking at.

Von is a freaking beast, if he doesn't with DROY it's rigged. He's our franchise quarterback on defense and I for one am glad we took him over Dareus.

[camdisco24]

I was pretty clear in my last post. Not going to repeat myself.

Thanks, because you're not making any sense at all.

[Tned]

Von is a freaking beast, if he doesn't with DROY it's rigged. He's our franchise quarterback on defense and I for one am glad we took him over Dareus.

Yea, and Doom is just getting back to full strength. What's he going to be like now that Doom's full strength and as Von keeps getting more experience? It's gonna be fun watching!

For those that didn't get to watch the game and only looked at the stat sheet (vhatever);


RT @PostBroncos: Todd Haley said Matt Cassel was pulled late in the game because "he was beat up there at the end." #Broncos hit him 12 times, w 4 sacks.