Tebow talk getting under Fox's skin

[Lancane]

Tebow talk getting under Fox's skin

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Denver-Broncos-John-Fox-frustrated-Tim-Tebow-questions-110411


"As a coach or decision-maker in an NFL building, you don't care what round they're drafted in, you don't care who drafted them," Fox told the Los Angeles Times. "You don't care if they're short, fat, whatever. You just care: Can they play? So all that other stuff is poppycock."


"The problem is, there's so much misinformation. For people that study it, you'd see that we've probably had more shotgun or spread offense than anybody in the league over the last two weeks," said Fox. "The goofy thing is, it's almost like if he doesn't have success it will be anybody's fault but his. It's almost that kind of polarizing thing."

If this isn't a tell all article then nothing is! :lol:

[camdisco24]

He's right. That's all that can be said.

[Ravage!!!]

You can see why our coaching options were pretty limited last offseason.

[I Eat Staples]

I think Tebow is the first player that can be considered a cancer to his team despite being a great guy. I honestly feel bad for him, he's a great person but having him on the team means putting the FO in a bad spot. He can't play QB but he's the most popular player on the team.

This article just proves what I've said all along, which is that Tebow is bad for a team because of his rabid fans and unwanted media exposure.

[broncohead]

Hey sounds like this board! Anybody but tebow is to blame!

[Slick]

Fox wasn't left with a lot to work with. It's not surprising to see some frustration.

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[slim]

Fox needs to keep his mouth shut and just coach the team.

[rcsodak]

GB's qb sucked his first couple yrs, and only he could improve his play.

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[Lancane]

It's like I said in a different thread -


"If Charles Manson knew that, that's all it took he'd have played quarterback at Florida!"

What is humorous is if we would have drafted Jimmy Clausen instead and he'd looked this bad, several of those defending Tebow would have been calling for his head. They'll deny it of course, they're under the influence of spiked Tebowaid and how dare they say he's at fault or that he's that bad!

[slim]

It's like I said in a different thread -



What is humorous is if we would have drafted Jimmy Clausen instead and he'd looked this bad, several of those defending Tebow would have been calling for his head. They'll deny it of course, they're under the influence of spiked Tebowaid and how dare they say he's at fault or that he's that bad!

It's obvious how bad he has played, but it's completely unprofessional for Fox to throw him under the bus. I can't think of too many coaches that would handle it that way.

[Lancane]

GB's qb sucked his first couple yrs, and only he could improve his play.

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He also sat for three years behind a first ballot hall of fame quarterback, not to mention that he was a pretty solid passer coming into the NFL, could make all the throws and play from the pocket. It was the 'Great Wine' effect, he sat and only got better as he aged.

;)

[Lancane]

It's obvious how bad he has played, but it's completely unprofessional for Fox to throw him under the bus. I can't think of too many coaches that would handle it that way.

Hey, I am someone who loves honesty...so I thought it was refreshing that he wasn't going to bullshit people and sugarcoat the crap.

And I don't consider that throwing him under the bus, more of throwing his cult following under it, making sure they tasted the rubber from the tires.

The fact that he didn't shy from telling it like it is and straight shooting from the hip earned some respect from me...I was ready to fire his ass, but maybe...just maybe, he has what it takes and realizes what is needed to succeed.

[claymore]

It's obvious how bad he has played, but it's completely unprofessional for Fox to throw him under the bus. I can't think of too many coaches that would handle it that way.

I cant fault him at all. Tebow is like Elvis for whatever reason. Thats all that people care about, and as Lan has said its a cancer to an already shitty team.

Fox is probably sick of hearing about it. I wouldnt be suprised if Tebow was traded in the offseason. Its just to big of a distraction.

[Lancane]

I cant fault him at all. Tebow is like Elvis for whatever reason. Thats all that people care about, and as Lan has said its a cancer to an already shitty team.

Fox is probably sick of hearing about it. I wouldnt be suprised if Tebow was traded in the offseason. Its just to big of a distraction.

At least Elvis earned the following he had!

As I said the other day, I think there was a lot more to do with the trade rumors with Carolina regarding Brandon Lloyd for Jimmy Clausen then people would like to admit. I think Fox wanted a quarterback that he favored and thought more likely to succeed compared to Tebow. Not to mention that he was more then likely already tired of the fanatical crap, Tebow's name being called left and right when he hadn't earned a damn thing.

[I Eat Staples]

GB's qb sucked his first couple yrs, and only he could improve his play.

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Aaron Rodgers sat behind Favre for his first couple years. How did he suck?

He certainly didn't suck in his first few years as a starter.

[MOtorboat]

At least Elvis earned the following he had!

As I said the other day, I think there was a lot more to do with the trade rumors with Carolina regarding Brandon Lloyd for Jimmy Clausen then people would like to admit. I think Fox wanted a quarterback that he favored and thought more likely to succeed compared to Tebow. Not to mention that he was more then likely already tired of the fanatical crap, Tebow's name being called left and right when he hadn't earned a damn thing.

I think Tebow earned the following, and I think the musical comparison is a little unfair. You go platinum on your first album, you're always a platinum artist. You win a national championship in NCAA football, you still have to prove yourself in the pros.

That said...I don't like Fox being this open. I don't think Tebow is an NFL quarterback, but come on.

I don't know what the question was, what prompted this, but your head coach has to keep his cool. Hell, its only been two games. Two horrific games, but still.

I don't like the conspiracy theorists that are saying Fox and McCoy are gameplanning against Tebow, but this doesn't help to disprove that thought.

[Dzone]

It's obvious how bad he has played, but it's completely unprofessional for Fox to throw him under the bus. I can't think of too many coaches that would handle it that way.
No doubt. That was low class of Fox. Tebow is terrible, but Fox needs to shut the **** up.
Oh well, we should expect such stupid Poppycock from our bargain basement discount head coach.

[Lancane]

I think Tebow earned the following, and I think the musical comparison is a little unfair. You go platinum on your first album, you're always a platinum artist. You win a national championship in NCAA football, you still have to prove yourself in the pros.

Really? Are you saying that Tebow's fanatical following isn't unusual?

Point and case: Matt Leinart, he had a ton of accolades as well, very similar to Tebow, but did he get as much coverage and exposure for every little thing in the same light as Tebow does? And he was a drafted higher, considered a more pro capable quarterback to boot. Though it's ironic that both are left handed and both possibly busts.


That said...I don't like Fox being this open. I don't think Tebow is an NFL quarterback, but come on.

I don't know what the question was, what prompted this, but your head coach has to keep his cool. Hell, its only been two games. Two horrific games, but still.

Come on', would you prefer that he lied and wasn't honest and simply coddled players as well as deceive the fans?


I don't like the conspiracy theorists that are saying Fox and McCoy are gameplanning against Tebow, but this doesn't help to disprove that thought.

There is no conspiracy, but Tebow is ripping this fan base apart on the same level as McDaniels did, which is likewise hurting this franchise which is trying to improve...when you have a fan base largely delusional about a quarterback prospect that is pretty much is cancerous to the franchise...what do you do?

[Northman]

Hey, I am someone who loves honesty...so I thought it was refreshing that he wasn't going to bullshit people and sugarcoat the crap.

And I don't consider that throwing him under the bus, more of throwing his cult following under it, making sure they tasted the rubber from the tires.

The fact that he didn't shy from telling it like it is and straight shooting from the hip earned some respect from me...I was ready to fire his ass, but maybe...just maybe, he has what it takes and realizes what is needed to succeed.

Yea, im with you.

Why lie? He's been hounded with people trying to blame everyone BUT Tebow for his shortcomings. For once its nice to see a coach calling a spade a spade.

[Lancane]

No doubt. That was low class of Fox. Tebow is terrible, but Fox needs to shut the **** up.
Oh well, we should expect such stupid Poppycock from our bargain basement discount head coach.

Usually you and I agree on most things, but on this D...I thought it was refreshing for someone to be honest. I said that Elway the other day when he did the morning show and said "he didn't see any improvement" was being truthful, while Fox said "he saw some improvement", I think he's just being transparent and telling it like it is. Look at the level that Tebow's fans are going to blame everyone but him?

Eventually people get tired of being blamed if not their fault, I think that's part of what set this off.

[NightTerror218]

Really? Are you saying that Tebow's fanatical following isn't unusual?

Point and case: Matt Leinart, he had a ton of accolades as well, very similar to Tebow, but did he get as much coverage and exposure for every little thing in the same light as Tebow does? And he was a drafted higher, considered a more pro capable quarterback to boot. Though it's ironic that both are left handed and both possibly busts.



Come on', would you prefer that he lied and wasn't honest and simply coddled players as well as deceive the fans?



There is no conspiracy, but Tebow is ripping this fan base apart on the same level as McDaniels did, which is likewise hurting this franchise which is trying to improve...when you have a fan base largely delusional about a quarterback prospect that is pretty much is cancerous to the franchise...what do you do?

Enough of the crap spewing from your mouth. Tebow is not doing anything to this team. He is definitely not ripping them apart or hurting it at all. He is a kid who was drafting to play football and that is what he is trying to do. He is not telling his followers to do anything. They just do what they want. Every problem there is comes from the media hanging from his nuts and talking good/bad about him. He has not gone out to get more attention he has been himself and kept to that. He does his charity stuff and volunteers.

How is Tebow ripping fan base apart? He brought in a lot of interest into this franchise and many followers. They state their opinions and you think it is ripping us apart, come on. He is not cancerous he is just trying to be the best he is. I would call him cancerous if he was ripping team about in locker room or creating problems. He is not. Some fans maybe delusional but many think he needs to have his chance to prove if he can be a QB for us or not. Right now he is proving that he might not be at all. But 2 games is load to judge any player by, figuring he is 1-1 this season starting for us.

You sound like Jags right now. Hope that is an eye opener with conspiracy talk.

[MOtorboat]

Really? Are you saying that Tebow's fanatical following isn't unusual?

Point and case: Matt Leinart, he had a ton of accolades as well, very similar to Tebow, but did he get as much coverage and exposure for every little thing in the same light as Tebow does? And he was a drafted higher, considered a more pro capable quarterback to boot. Though it's ironic that both are left handed and both possibly busts.

Come on', would you prefer that he lied and wasn't honest and simply coddled players as well as deceive the fans?

There is no conspiracy, but Tebow is ripping this fan base apart on the same level as McDaniels did, which is likewise hurting this franchise which is trying to improve...when you have a fan base largely delusional about a quarterback prospect that is pretty much is cancerous to the franchise...what do you do?

I know this isn't a popular opinion, but I don't care what the fans think and I don't want Fox to care what I think.

Now, if he's ripping the locker room apart, we've got a problem.

That said...You just don't do that in public. Hell yeah you lie, or white lie. Then you rip him a new one in the team meetings. What the hell is accomplished by calling him out in public?

And I'm not even going to debate if he deserves the following. He does. He was that good in college, and college football is just as big of a business, and has just as large of a fan base, as the NFL.

[Lancane]

Enough of the crap spewing from your mouth. Tebow is not doing anything to this team. He is definitely not ripping them apart or hurting it at all. He is a kid who was drafting to play football and that is what he is trying to do. He is not telling his followers to do anything. They just do what they want. Every problem there is comes from the media hanging from his nuts and talking good/bad about him. He has not gone out to get more attention he has been himself and kept to that. He does his charity stuff and volunteers.

Is he doing it on purpose or intentional? No... I guess it was unfair of me to say it is him rather then the fact that his fanatical fan base is so rabid that they've caused a media frenzy of unusual proportions. But it does effect the team and the fan base, whether you like to admit it or not.


How is Tebow ripping fan base apart? He brought in a lot of interest into this franchise and many followers. They state their opinions and you think it is ripping us apart, come on. He is not cancerous he is just trying to be the best he is. I would call him cancerous if he was ripping team about in locker room or creating problems. He is not. Some fans maybe delusional but many think he needs to have his chance to prove if he can be a QB for us or not. Right now he is proving that he might not be at all. But 2 games is load to judge any player by, figuring he is 1-1 this season starting for us.

You sound like Jags right now. Hope that is an eye opener with conspiracy talk.

As I stated above, it's not really he, himself that is the cancerous one...but more his following, they've instigated this...when someone said he didn't have the skill set to make it, they wrote and cursed those respected professionals, unloading their delusional opinions back on them. And so far the more they're proven right...the worse it has gotten. Look back to camp and preseason and all the shit we heard, but no...they're full of it and yet we're seeing it still, the fans are making excuses for him. It's everybody else's fault but his own, no matter that they've even catered the offense to better fit him. And as for bringing followers to the team, besides a handful most of those who've posted on the board are more akin to those considered unreasonable fanatical fanbois.

[I Eat Staples]

Enough of the crap spewing from your mouth. Tebow is not doing anything to this team. He is definitely not ripping them apart or hurting it at all. He is a kid who was drafting to play football and that is what he is trying to do. He is not telling his followers to do anything. They just do what they want. Every problem there is comes from the media hanging from his nuts and talking good/bad about him. He has not gone out to get more attention he has been himself and kept to that. He does his charity stuff and volunteers.

How is Tebow ripping fan base apart? He brought in a lot of interest into this franchise and many followers. They state their opinions and you think it is ripping us apart, come on. He is not cancerous he is just trying to be the best he is. I would call him cancerous if he was ripping team about in locker room or creating problems. He is not. Some fans maybe delusional but many think he needs to have his chance to prove if he can be a QB for us or not. Right now he is proving that he might not be at all. But 2 games is load to judge any player by, figuring he is 1-1 this season starting for us.

You sound like Jags right now. Hope that is an eye opener with conspiracy talk.

It's not a conspiracy. Tebow DOES rip the fan base apart. Tebow DID limit the amount of coaches we could hire because a lot of coaches don't want to work with a QB like him. Having Tebow on this team causes controversy about everything, because coaches know he can't play but the fans won't shut up about him. Its truly ridiculous.

Even Lloyd noticed it, he called it the "Tebow thing." The fact that another player talks about Tebow like that speaks volumes.

[Lancane]

I know this isn't a popular opinion, but I don't care what the fans think and I don't want Fox to care what I think.

Now, if he's ripping the locker room apart, we've got a problem.

That said...You just don't do that in public. Hell yeah you lie, or white lie. Then you rip him a new one in the team meetings. What the hell is accomplished by calling him out in public?

And I'm not even going to debate if he deserves the following. He does. He was that good in college, and college football is just as big of a business, and has just as large of a fan base, as the NFL.

I think it's sort of hard Mo, when the fans have a lot to do with the problem, writing blogs or unloading on journalists that it's everyone else's fault...Tebow is not to blame. I know some on here want to deny that the switch was made to replace a struggling quarterback with Tebow due to fan outcry, but come on...does anyone believe it played no part, just as it played no part in that co-number two crap?

I suppose I'm just different, I think the honesty is a fresh take after all the shit we've had to get use to. Whether or not Fox meant to blow up, it's the honesty of it that impressed me. No, I don't believe in throwing players under the bus...but it's hard to take the blame constantly for a quarterback with short comings that is showing no improvement while people are starting to call for your own head.

As to his following, it's just something we'll have to agree to disagree on...but look what his following has done here?

[sneakers]

lol poppycock

[dogfish]

hang in there, fellas. . . nine more games. . .

[MOtorboat]

I don't mind the honesty. I like that. BUT, I also recognize that a coach should keep that shit in house.

It feels to me that he caved to the fans, and I hate that more.

If this shit is what he saw in practice, he should have kept it there, even if the idiots at Mile High were throwing beer bottles.

[Northman]

I don't mind the honesty. I like that. BUT, I also recognize that a coach should keep that shit in house.


What shit exactly? Isnt the idea to address the problems of the team including the QB?

[MOtorboat]

What shit exactly? Isnt the idea to address the problems of the team including the QB?

You want my journalist take or my fan take?

[Krugan]

The whole following thing, people just need to pay attention to the wierd shit that happens in florida daily.

Thats all there is to it.

Fox went abit far with making that public. If there is that much unhappiness with the kid, bench him, my guess it wont be questioned that much.

The only thing is, if you bench him now, your almost forced to ride Quinn to the end, at least thats my thought. Bringing Orton back in would pretty much confirm that Dove Valley is farked.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I read the article twice, and I don't see where Fox called out TT. I can imagine, with Fox being the HC, he has to be absolutely TIRED of the fact that almost any question that he is ask is about TT - GEEZ - he has a team full of players - not just one player.

[Lancane]

I don't mind the honesty. I like that. BUT, I also recognize that a coach should keep that shit in house.

It feels to me that he caved to the fans, and I hate that more.

If this shit is what he saw in practice, he should have kept it there, even if the idiots at Mile High were throwing beer bottles.

Well, as I said...I think he would have been more discrete had he probably not had enough of taking the blame from the fans, I think he got tired of hearing how they should create an offense simply for Tebow and that they were failing him or there was a conspiracy theory, that he and McCoy were not doing enough for him to succeed, that he and Elway never wanted Tebow to have a shot...blah, blah, blah.

Did he handle it in the best way? I don't know, because obviously public opinion holds sway with the organization or so it seems, and I sure in the hell wouldn't want to possibly lose my job because I got stuck with a quarterback that had a cult-like following but couldn't play a lick.

Caving to the fans...do you mean to play Tebow or his remarks?

As to the last statement, I completely agree...if this is what Tebow looked like in practice then he should have been left out to dry and third on the depth chart, period.

[Lancane]

hang in there, fellas. . . nine more games. . .

For the second straight season fans are more excited for the season to be over...how F'n sad is that?

:tsk:

[Medford Bronco]

Tebow talk getting under Fox's skin

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Denver-Broncos-John-Fox-frustrated-Tim-Tebow-questions-110411





If this isn't a tell all article then nothing is! :lol:


Then do something about it Mr. Fox. Either say he is the Qb the rest of the season or give Quinn a chance. You know a QB who can throw and out pattern and is not a thread to hit the goal posts with any of his throws.

Sorry I am not worried about Tebow being the next Steve Young.

[Medford Bronco]

hang in there, fellas. . . nine more games. . .

So sad that I would rather watch the Redzone Channel over this crap each week:tsk:

[Northman]

You want my journalist take or my fan take?

Doesnt matter.

The coaches have come out the past week talking about the Oline, defense, gameplan, etc. Talking about the QB's shortcomings isnt off limits. At least ive never seen that in the past. :confused:

[Northman]

So sad that I would rather watch the Redzone Channel over this crap each week:tsk:

For the record, the RZ channel rules. No commericals= Excellent Goodness. :lol:

[MOtorboat]

Doesnt matter.

The coaches have come out the past week talking about the Oline, defense, gameplan, etc. Talking about the QB's shortcomings isnt off limits. At least ive never seen that in the past. :confused:

Well, as a fan I want them to shut up.

But, like I said earlier, they caved to the fans to put in Tebow and now it sounds like they are throwing their hands in the air and saying, "See!?"

And I hate that too.

Do what you think is best, not what the fans think.

[Medford Bronco]

For the record, the RZ channel rules. No commericals= Excellent Goodness. :lol:

and less watching 3 and outs and overthrows with the helicpoter passes.

Hey I am a frustrated bronco fan. I am not impressed with this crap they are selling us. We never went through this garbage under Shanny. For his shortcomings the team was always competitive for the most part.

I miss the Brian Griese/Jake Plummer days. How bad is that. At least they would have a good running game. When was the last time we saw that , 2005 with Mike Anderson :tsk:

[Lancane]

For the record, the RZ channel rules. No commericals= Excellent Goodness. :lol:

I think I'd have gone nuts if there hadn't been any good college football games this whole time.

[Medford Bronco]

Maybe Tebow should watch this video.

It might help him :elefant::lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq7ax9xQrE0

[BeefStew25]

Everyone is big boys here. Nothing wrong with stating the obvious.

[Northman]

Well, as a fan I want them to shut up.

But, like I said earlier, they caved to the fans to put in Tebow and now it sounds like they are throwing their hands in the air and saying, "See!?"

And I hate that too.

Do what you think is best, not what the fans think.

Honestly, i dont think there was any caving to fans on this. The fans have still seemed to be behind Tebow. I think he was just addressing the fact that the media has tried to crucify the gameplan and McCoy. Which is ok, everyone deserves their share of the blame but with some of the excuses as too why Tebow is falling short im sure Fox is getting frustrated with the constant questions.

[BeefStew25]

My only issue is the integrity. So, if EFX truly believed TT drank penis in the preseason, they should have gotten some value and traded him then.

They aren't trading him now. There is simply no value. He is a straight cut.

[Northman]

and less watching 3 and outs and overthrows with the helicpoter passes.

Hey I am a frustrated bronco fan. I am not impressed with this crap they are selling us. We never went through this garbage under Shanny. For his shortcomings the team was always competitive for the most part.

I miss the Brian Griese/Jake Plummer days. How bad is that. At least they would have a good running game. When was the last time we saw that , 2005 with Mike Anderson :tsk:

I dont even have to go back that far, i miss Cutler. :lol:

[Medford Bronco]

I dont even have to go back that far, i miss Cutler. :lol:

I do as well but I am pointing out that those two were less than stars but decent NFL Qbs.

Cutler did create a lot of drama and that left a sour taste that is still in my mouth. Him and Josh can both screw for all I care.

[MOtorboat]

Honestly, i dont think there was any caving to fans on this. The fans have still seemed to be behind Tebow. I think he was just addressing the fact that the media has tried to crucify the gameplan and McCoy. Which is ok, everyone deserves their share of the blame but with some of the excuses as too why Tebow is falling short im sure Fox is getting frustrated with the constant questions.

Of course he's frustrated. Tebow is probably one of the worst quarterbacks he's ever seen. And its not just the media crucifying him and McCoy for the playcalling...look at all the excuses made here. I'd be frustrated having to answer to that crap too. But you don't state it in public.

And him stating it in public makes me think he caved to the fans in making his decision. He never once has really stood by the decision or ever given any public support to Tebow. But here he is offering public criticism willy nilly.

[Medford Bronco]

Of course he's frustrated. Tebow is probably one of the worst quarterbacks he's ever seen. And its not just the media crucifying him and McCoy for the playcalling...look at all the excuses made here. I'd be frustrated having to answer to that crap too. But you don't state it in public.

And him stating it in public makes me think he caved to the fans in making his decision. He never once has really stood by the decision or ever given any public support to Tebow. But here he is offering public criticism willy nilly.

If that is how he feels then he should start Quinn. F the fans.

We are the new Cleveland Browns since the last 8 games of 2009:mad:

[PAFLCO]

Can we say--- PR Nightmare.

This is a NO WIN situation . I agree Fox is frustrated. He has reasons to be frustrated. The team as a whole aren't jelling. Everyone needs to improve, coaches and players. It is not all Tebow. This is not a one man team. A win takes every single player to do their job.

I agree and disagree with several points that have been stated. But the bottom line is Fox should have never addressed his comments the why he did.

[BroncoStud]

Fox sucks, don't really care what he says. He won 2 games last year and will probably win 2 games this year, and everyone blamed the owner last year, not Fox, so I don't know why he's talking trash on Tebow when it comes to responsibility. Fox has taken a servicable offense and destroyed it, and taken a bad defense and barely improved it.

Guy sucks and will get more excuses than he deserves because of what McDaniels did to the team. Shanahan could coach circles around this yahoo.

[Timmy!]

id be pissed if i was fox too, but honestly i dont think this was him throwing tebow under the bus as much as being done with the tebowites who wont blame anybody but tebow for him sucking more balls than a skinhead in a prison shower. imho, tebow has the month of november, against 4 superior opponents, to show something, anything, that makes him worth keeping. i have my doubts, but we will see.

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[nflfan]

Fox sounds like he was nudged by someone into playing Tebow.

The good news is, after the Oakland game, Tebow will either prove to everyone that he deserves to be the starter, or prove to everyone that he needs more time to develop NFL QB'ing skills. This next game can't come soon enough for Fox.

[Lancane]

Fox sounds like he was nudged by someone into playing Tebow.

That would be the fans who support Tebow, it's hard to ignore them...even on here.


The good news is, after the Oakland game, Tebow will either prove to everyone that he deserves to be the starter, or prove to everyone that he needs more time to develop NFL QB'ing skills. This next game can't come soon enough for Fox.

I don't see him getting that time Fan, I really don't I think this is a make or break game, and more or less IMHO it's a break, even if we somehow win, if he looks like he has against Detroit and Miami they've got to make a change, you can not win consistently with an inconsistent quarterback. I would be surprised if Tebow is a Denver Bronco next year, not unless he is willing to be more what his skill set portends to such as a Slot Receiver/Tight End/H-Back/Back-up Quarterback. If he really wants to be an NFL starting quarterback it will most likely be somewhere else, if he's willing to give it a go and be whatever the team needs, then he could replace Royal on the depth chart after he leaves.

[Lancane]

Fox sucks, don't really care what he says. He won 2 games last year and will probably win 2 games this year, and everyone blamed the owner last year, not Fox, so I don't know why he's talking trash on Tebow when it comes to responsibility. Fox has taken a servicable offense and destroyed it, and taken a bad defense and barely improved it.

Guy sucks and will get more excuses than he deserves because of what McDaniels did to the team. Shanahan could coach circles around this yahoo.

Fox isn't the greatest Head Coach, I think you and I have been on the same page for awhile now regarding Fox...we both preferred other candidates. With that said, I am willing to give the 'Old Coot' a chance, but he and Elway have to hire a different offensive coordinator, I think Allen is doing fine and will improve with more talent and time - I can not say the same for McCoy, he's continually shown his inefficiencies as an offensive coordinator. And please, for the love of 'God' make sure the next offensive coordinator has more to work with as well.

[Mike]

If you guys can't see that there is something incredibly wrong and unprofessional about what Fox said then I don't know what to say.

Regardless if Fox feels this way, it was something that didn't need to be said.

[Northman]

**** it, i dont care if it was considered wrong or not. Get rid of everyone including Elway then. Start from scratch. People want to bitch just to bitch. This team sucks from its QB all the way down and if a coach points it out than i finally see it as someone has the balls to say what im ive been thinking the last 3 years.

[Dzone]

Fox's clown act is starting to wear thin.
He becomes more and more annoying with each passing day.
If we lose tomorrow, he is going to be even more irritating to look at.

[Tned]

So sad that I would rather watch the Redzone Channel over this crap each week:tsk:

Not me. As bad as it is, I'm still looking forward to the last nine games. I hope we will see some positives from the young players, but either way, I'm looking forward to what's left of this season, and even as bad as things have been, I'm bummed the season is nearly half over.

[Tned]

If you guys can't see that there is something incredibly wrong and unprofessional about what Fox said then I don't know what to say.

Regardless if Fox feels this way, it was something that didn't need to be said.

It's just as wrong as McDaniels insinuating that Marshall was faking an injury, and McDaniels was roundly trashed in the media by the ex-NFL types over that comment.

[Slick]

Who is Fox talking to in this article? The media? The fans?

[BroncoStud]

Fox isn't the greatest Head Coach, I think you and I have been on the same page for awhile now regarding Fox...we both preferred other candidates. With that said, I am willing to give the 'Old Coot' a chance, but he and Elway have to hire a different offensive coordinator, I think Allen is doing fine and will improve with more talent and time - I can not say the same for McCoy, he's continually shown his inefficiencies as an offensive coordinator. And please, for the love of 'God' make sure the next offensive coordinator has more to work with as well.

I agree with all of this. Fox will likely get 3 years. Let's hope if he hasn't shown drastic improvement that he won't get a day longer. Mike McCoy needs to be fired like yesterday.

[Tned]

Of course he's frustrated. Tebow is probably one of the worst quarterbacks he's ever seen. And its not just the media crucifying him and McCoy for the playcalling...look at all the excuses made here. I'd be frustrated having to answer to that crap too. But you don't state it in public.

And him stating it in public makes me think he caved to the fans in making his decision. He never once has really stood by the decision or ever given any public support to Tebow. But here he is offering public criticism willy nilly.

Ummm, I normally don't do this, but since you've been going around attacking posters you disagree with by pointing out their grammar/spelling errors....

Shouldn't it be "it's"?

[MOtorboat]

Ummm, I normally don't do this, but since you've been going around attacking posters you disagree with by pointing out their grammar/spelling errors....

Shouldn't it be "it's"?

Good catch.

[Tned]

Good catch.

You had a couple other, you seem to struggle on the it's/its, but decided not to continue making my point. We all know that message boards are like informal chats and that it doesn't get much lower than slamming people for a typo because you disagree with their opinion.

I'll chock it up to having a bad day and stop making my glass houses point.

[BroncoNut]

Hey, I am someone who loves honesty...so I thought it was refreshing that he wasn't going to bullshit people and sugarcoat the crap.

And I don't consider that throwing him under the bus, more of throwing his cult following under it, making sure they tasted the rubber from the tires.

The fact that he didn't shy from telling it like it is and straight shooting from the hip earned some respect from me...I was ready to fire his ass, but maybe...just maybe, he has what it takes and realizes what is needed to succeed.

I'll have to remove a salute. Sorry Slim

[dogfish]

Who is Fox talking to in this article? The media? The fans?

atwater's mom. . . .

[I Eat Staples]

It's just as wrong as McDaniels insinuating that Marshall was faking an injury, and McDaniels was roundly trashed in the media by the ex-NFL types over that comment.

That's different, publicly questioning a player's toughness or accusing them of faking an injury is much worse than saying a player didn't play well. Coaches tell the media that someone had a bad game all the time.

[Ravage!!!]

It's just as wrong as McDaniels insinuating that Marshall was faking an injury, and McDaniels was roundly trashed in the media by the ex-NFL types over that comment.

Because its not the same thing. Fox is commenting on how the fans treat everything they do. McDanials was questioning a players manhood/integrity. Thats COMPLETELY different. Not even close to being in same ballpark.

I see NOTHING wrong with Fox's comments. I'm sorry that some of you think it was SOOO bad. But what did he say against Tebow himself? Anything?

[Tned]

Because its not the same thing. Fox is commenting on how the fans treat everything they do. McDanials was questioning a players manhood/integrity. Thats COMPLETELY different. Not even close to being in same ballpark.

I see NOTHING wrong with Fox's comments. I'm sorry that some of you think it was SOOO bad. But what did he say against Tebow himself? Anything?

Ravage, he's not posting on a message board, or writing a column intended to get a rise out of people. A veteran coach like he is knows better than to make comments like that, which will result in more questions being asked to him and his players about it. Will further rile up the fans -- like Orton's glad the fans don't make the decision on who starts comment.

Yes, it might be different than the Marshall comment for the reasons you gave, but it is still a very dumb comment from a vet head coach.

There is no upside to making a comment like that.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Who is Fox talking to in this article? The media? The fans?

From article:

Fox told the Los Angeles Times.

Of course - the article does not show what question someone ask Fox, or what was said to Fox to prompt this - if it would have, possibly the response would have been easier to understand.

[nevcraw]

Bush league response by Fox. How about just saying "as the coaching staff we are have been trying to make Tim and the team as successful as they can can be".

I think he's just defensive because his antiquated 3 yards and a cloud of dust followed by a low % pass play shit sucks and doesn't work anymore.

[Lancane]

Bush league response by Fox. How about just saying "as the coaching staff we are have been trying to make Tim and the team as successful as they can can be".

I think he's just defensive because his antiquated 3 yards and a cloud of dust followed by a low % pass play shit sucks and doesn't work anymore.

That's why he made such a statement in my honest opinion, because he's being held responsible for Tebow's lack of progress. As he basically said, people want to blame everyone but Tebow if he is not successful.

[Ravage!!!]

Ravage, he's not posting on a message board, or writing a column intended to get a rise out of people. A veteran coach like he is knows better than to make comments like that, which will result in more questions being asked to him and his players about it. Will further rile up the fans -- like Orton's glad the fans don't make the decision on who starts comment.

Yes, it might be different than the Marshall comment for the reasons you gave, but it is still a very dumb comment from a vet head coach.

There is no upside to making a comment like that.

and as a vet coach, I'm sure he knows what he's saying. Tned, just because some fans over react and take offense doesn't mean it was a wrong statement. Seems there are just as many that don't see he's taking a "swipe" at Tebow at ALLL. I don't. I don't see how anyone thinks its a bad statement or a jab at Tim. Where is the attack on Tim? I still don't see it.

I think its an overreaction based on the sensitive situation that IS Tim Tebow..... hence WHY the comment from Fox was made to begin with. SO MANY want to defend Tim on everything...even when it comes down to the coaches comments. Its a no win situation for Fox and co.

YOU may think its a dumb comment. I don't. Veteran coach and all.

[nevcraw]

and as a vet coach, I'm sure he knows what he's saying. Tned, just because some fans over react and take offense doesn't mean it was a wrong statement. Seems there are just as many that don't see he's taking a "swipe" at Tebow at ALLL. I don't. I don't see how anyone thinks its a bad statement or a jab at Tim. Where is the attack on Tim? I still don't see it.

I think its an overreaction based on the sensitive situation that IS Tim Tebow..... hence WHY the comment from Fox was made to begin with. SO MANY want to defend Tim on everything...even when it comes down to the coaches comments. Its a no win situation for Fox and co.

YOU may think its a dumb comment. I don't. Veteran coach and all.

Plenty of people are blaming Tebow for not succeeding probably about half. Usually with polarity you have a about equal in the love or hatem camp..

It's a jab because it speaks to if he does not succeed. most good coaches look at every situation with success as a must almost a foregone conclusion. Fox's statement is the opposite as if the foregone conclusion is Tebow not succeeding and he doesn't want to be blamed.
But meanwhile most of us see that the system tebow is running is not helping him or the rest of the offense be productive. not hard to see. so in part he Fox and His offense is to blame.

[Lancane]

Plenty of people are blaming Tebow for not succeeding probably about half. Usually with polarity you have a about equal in the love or hatem camp..

It's a jab because it speaks to if he does not succeed. most good coaches look at every situation with success as a must almost a foregone conclusion. Fox's statement is the opposite as if the foregone conclusion is Tebow not succeeding and he doesn't want to be blamed.
But meanwhile most of us see that the system tebow is running is not helping him or the rest of the offense be productive. not hard to see. so in part he Fox and His offense is to blame.

Can you honestly state that the following that Tebow has, has not caused the level of polarity that the situation has become?

And it's not Fox's offense Nev, he may have a conservative philosophy...but McCoy is in charge of the offense, Fox can make roster decisions and have a say in coaching personnel, other then that what issues we see with the offense other then player faults almost all lies at McCoy's feet. And to be fair, the offense that McCoy instilled is a dumbed down version of McDaniels' offensive system, and they added a lot more spread option offensive plays to help Tebow then those wanted could have hoped for. Do you really expect them to run a collegiate based offense like the spread option because it would help him? Most spread quarterbacks that enter the pro's must conform and adapt to the pro style...so why is it different for Tebow?

[Ravage!!!]

But meanwhile most of us see that the system tebow is running is not helping him or the rest of the offense be productive. not hard to see. so in part he Fox and His offense is to blame.

nev, EVERYONE thinks they are better play-callers than the OC. Its the same complaint in every fan base for every team. The fans feel they know how to call good games, and the OC doesn't know squat. Its pretty funny when you think about it.

[Tned]

Can you honestly state that the following that Tebow has, has not caused the level of polarity that the situation has become?

And it's not Fox's offense Nev, he may have a conservative philosophy...but McCoy is in charge of the offense, Fox can make roster decisions and have a say in coaching personnel, other then that what issues we see with the offense other then player faults almost all lies at McCoy's feet. And to be fair, the offense that McCoy instilled is a dumbed down version of McDaniels' offensive system, and they added a lot more spread option offensive plays to help Tebow then those wanted could have hoped for. Do you really expect them to run a collegiate based offense like the spread option because it would help him? Most spread quarterbacks that enter the pro's must conform and adapt to the pro style...so why is it different for Tebow?

It's weak to blame it on Tebow's followers, considering it would require you to complete forget the Good Jake/Bad Jake polarity, the Jake v. Jay polarity, the Jake is the next Elway/Jay is a drunken bum polarity and the McDaniels/Jay polarity. Regardless of how over the top his follower are, or how over the top his bashers are, that doesn't excuse a coach for making a dumb comment, even if he's frustrated.

As to McCoy and the offense. Try again. McCoy came from Fox's system and is running primarily Fox's system. Does he have some stuff in from McDaniels' offense when McCoy was OC in name only, but obviously we are seeing almost nothing that Denver ran when McDaniels was calling the plays, but instead play calling very similar to what Fox ran in Carolina.

I think you are the first person that I've seen try and claim that Fox has no say/influence in the offensive scheme being run.

[MOtorboat]

John Fox doesn't have an offensive system.

His first offensive coordinator in Carolina was Dan Henning who ran the Gibbs style of the Coryell. His second offensive coordinator, the one Mike McCoy worked with as quarterbacks coach and passing coordinator, was Jeff Davidson, who had extensive time working with Weiss in the Erhardt-Perkins passing game that is similar to the offense McDaniels modified in his time in New England. Davidson moved with Mangini to Cleveland and then to Carolina when Henning moved on. That's why McDaniels hired him and why Fox kept him.

[BroncoStud]

John Fox doesn't have an offensive system.

His first offensive coordinator in Carolina was Dan Henning who ran the Gibbs style of the Coryell. His second offensive coordinator, the one Mike McCoy worked with as quarterbacks coach and passing coordinator, was Jeff Davidson, who had extensive time working with Weiss in the Erhardt-Perkins passing game that is similar to the offense McDaniels modified in his time in New England. Davidson moved with Mangini to Cleveland and then to Carolina when Henning moved on. That's why McDaniels hired him and why Fox kept him.

Hell of a coaching tree... :laugh:

:flypig:

[silkamilkamonico]

Fox needs to worry about the defense, and start proving he knows how to coach it. We already know he sucks on offense.

[bcbronc]

wow, if people have their panties tied in knots over those comments from Fox, I'm glad they weren't watching football when Bill Parcells or Mike Ditka were coaching.

Fox didn't even say anything at ALL about Tebow, the comment was clearly geared towards those that say Tebow overthrew a wide open WR by 10 yards because the OC didn't let him get into a groove first, or that the only reason Tebow isn't succeeding is because the coaching staff is too stupid to use him correctly, etc. Definitely some thin skin in Bronco Nation when it comes to #15 and I think Fox was absolutely correct to put it on the table like he did.

I mean if Fox had come out and said Franklin needs to do a better job blocking, would there be a peep about how inappropriate it is for the coach to critique a player in the media like that? Of course not, in this era of 24 hr TV and Internet coverage, coaches are constantly pointing out Player X didn't have a good game/needs to be better/etc. Only when it's Tebow does it become an issue, which is pretty much exactly the point Fox was looking to make.

[Lancane]

It's weak to blame it on Tebow's followers, considering it would require you to complete forget the Good Jake/Bad Jake polarity, the Jake v. Jay polarity, the Jake is the next Elway/Jay is a drunken bum polarity and the McDaniels/Jay polarity. Regardless of how over the top his follower are, or how over the top his bashers are, that doesn't excuse a coach for making a dumb comment, even if he's frustrated.

Can you not see it though, how this situation could be frustrating to someone in such a position? That's what some actually need to grasp, the sport is already emotional even heated at times, look at the quarrels between fellow posters over the dumbest crap, it makes you forget things or overreact, even misjudge. But I found it refreshing, hearing the truth made me respect the man more then I did before. And you may believe it's a dumb comment, well obviously the Broncos' organization doesn't find it near as offensive as some or we would already have seen some weird attempt at PR control.


As to McCoy and the offense. Try again. McCoy came from Fox's system and is running primarily Fox's system. Does he have some stuff in from McDaniels' offense when McCoy was OC in name only, but obviously we are seeing almost nothing that Denver ran when McDaniels was calling the plays, but instead play calling very similar to what Fox ran in Carolina.

That is actually completely false T. John Fox doesn't have a set offensive system which he prefers...he's been around several different variants of different offenses over the years. Tom Moore the former offensive coordinator of the Indianapolis Colts was the first offensive coordinator that Fox had coached along side, during his tenure as the defensive backs coach in Pittsburgh. Tom Moore helped Chuck Noll who up till that time was his own offensive coordinator instill a Coryell offensive system in Pittsburgh and intermixed the high powered passing attack of the Coryell with the Noll's smashmouth ground game.

Fox had left Pittsburgh before Ron Erhardt had become the offensive coordinator there, instilling his unique version of the smashmouth offense, which he and Ray Perkins had developed, what we know as the Erhardt-Perkins. John Fox went to San Diego under Bobby Ross as the Charger's defensive backs coach for a season before going to Oakland to be the defensive coordinator which lasted for one season, the following year he was a consultant for the St. Louis Rams before joining Jim Fassel's Giants, who's offensive coordinator was Jim Skipper, this is when he and a young quarterback coach named Sean Payton were first introduced to the Erhardt-Perkins offense system.

After a five year stint, he was named the Head Coach of the Carolina Panthers in 2002 where he hired Dan Henning to be his offensive coordinator who instilled an Air-Coryell variant offense. In 2006 along with several other members of the offensive staff, Henning was fired despite some success, many believed this was due to Fox's unwavering commitment to defense and ignoring the offense. In 2007 Fox hired Jeff Davidson, a former New England assistant to Carolina to be the offensive coordinator, he would instill the Erhardt-Perkins offense in Carolina which failed miserably except for one great season. (Here is an ironic twist of fate, Jeff Davidson who would end up mentoring Mike McCoy and was a former NFL offensive lineman, and was drafted by the Denver Broncos in the 5th Round of the 1990 NFL Draft).

McDaniels hired McCoy under the recommendation of Davidson, because he knew the Erhardt-Perkins from being under him. Though McDaniels' own version was the more updated Air-Erhardt as I've dubbed it because it's more of an aerial system then it's smashmouth predecessor.


I think you are the first person that I've seen try and claim that Fox has no say/influence in the offensive scheme being run.
Having a conservative philosophy is different then instilling a scheme or system. He doesn't call the offensive plays, make up the offensive game plans with the offensive coaching staff...he just likes the planning itself to be conservative, which usually implies a run first offense with an cautious accurate passing attack which controls the clock and turns the ball over less.

In fact it could be fair to say that he might favor the Coryell variant offenses over the Erhardt-Perkins because he's been around the success of one more then the other...sadly for us Bronco fans we've seen the success of the Coryell offense, it's the base offense of the Chargers and now the Carolina Panther's with Cam Newton under Ron Rivera, that's also quite ironic.

[nflfan]

That would be the fans who support Tebow, it's hard to ignore them...even on here.



I don't see him getting that time Fan, I really don't I think this is a make or break game, and more or less IMHO it's a break, even if we somehow win, if he looks like he has against Detroit and Miami they've got to make a change, you can not win consistently with an inconsistent quarterback. I would be surprised if Tebow is a Denver Bronco next year, not unless he is willing to be more what his skill set portends to such as a Slot Receiver/Tight End/H-Back/Back-up Quarterback. If he really wants to be an NFL starting quarterback it will most likely be somewhere else, if he's willing to give it a go and be whatever the team needs, then he could replace Royal on the depth chart after he leaves.

I hear ya, and agree. Tebow needs to prove he has competent QB'ing skills in the Oakland game ... anything short of that, and I think Fox has enough to show everyone that he gave him every chance to prove himself.

McDaniels put the Broncos and Tebow in a precarious situation by drafting Tebow way too high for a developmental QB. For that, he should have been drafted in the 3rd round or later. Then, they can use him as a TE/FB/QB combo while he learns pro NFL QB skills at a manageable pace.

I'm pretty sure Miami would want him, though.

I'm not a fan of his QB'ing style, but I do hope he flourishes in the NFL, no matter what position he ends up playing.

[Npba900]

Fox needs to keep his mouth shut and just coach the team.

Fox has every right to speak his mind and blow off steam. Why risk a heart attack or stroke because you're keeping everything "Inside". Besides, Fox is showing his "Human Side"!!!!:D

[Ravage!!!]

wow, if people have their panties tied in knots over those comments from Fox, I'm glad they weren't watching football when Bill Parcells or Mike Ditka were coaching.

Fox didn't even say anything at ALL about Tebow, the comment was clearly geared towards those that say Tebow overthrew a wide open WR by 10 yards because the OC didn't let him get into a groove first, or that the only reason Tebow isn't succeeding is because the coaching staff is too stupid to use him correctly, etc. Definitely some thin skin in Bronco Nation when it comes to #15 and I think Fox was absolutely correct to put it on the table like he did.

I mean if Fox had come out and said Franklin needs to do a better job blocking, would there be a peep about how inappropriate it is for the coach to critique a player in the media like that? Of course not, in this era of 24 hr TV and Internet coverage, coaches are constantly pointing out Player X didn't have a good game/needs to be better/etc. Only when it's Tebow does it become an issue, which is pretty much exactly the point Fox was looking to make.

I think this needs to be quoted. This is EXACTLY right. This is DEAD ON.

Coaches point out players ALLLLL the time.

[wayninja]

This is just yet another misstep by an awful team. Our QB has shown he sucks, our offense has shown they suck, our defense has shown they suck, and now the HC is showing he sucks.

We suck.

John Fox who was pathetic last year, is pathetic this year. Who would've guessed?

[nevcraw]

Can you honestly state that the following that Tebow has, has not caused the level of polarity that the situation has become?

And it's not Fox's offense Nev, he may have a conservative philosophy...but McCoy is in charge of the offense, Fox can make roster decisions and have a say in coaching personnel, other then that what issues we see with the offense other then player faults almost all lies at McCoy's feet. And to be fair, the offense that McCoy instilled is a dumbed down version of McDaniels' offensive system, and they added a lot more spread option offensive plays to help Tebow then those wanted could have hoped for. Do you really expect them to run a collegiate based offense like the spread option because it would help him? Most spread quarterbacks that enter the pro's must conform and adapt to the pro style...so why is it different for Tebow?

the hell it's not Fox's offense. He came in spouting about running the ball more, RB being the highest FA priority and kept the OC he had working for him in Carolina. I'm not feeling up to researching but I think there are plenty of quotes out there from Fox on how he wants his offense to be.. and for the easiest answer he is the head coach so it's his offense, defense, special teams and water boy..

I'm not sure what your asking about Tebow but who cares about his following it has nothing to do with with his development or the the Broncos it's just noise in both directions. for every annoying supporter there is an equal more vocal detractor on tv spouting off.

[Tned]

Having a conservative philosophy is different then instilling a scheme or system. He doesn't call the offensive plays, make up the offensive game plans with the offensive coaching staff...he just likes the planning itself to be conservative, which usually implies a run first offense with an cautious accurate passing attack which controls the clock and turns the ball over less.


Yes, he does, which is completely different than what McDaniels did in NE and tried to do here. Fox requires two things from his coordinators, because he believes it is the basis of winning football --- run the ball and stop the run.

To say that McCoy is running an offense similar to what McDaniels ran, can only be stated by people that haven't watched the games called by both.

[Lancane]

the hell it's not Fox's offense. He came in spouting about running the ball more, RB being the highest FA priority and kept the OC he had working for him in Carolina. I'm not feeling up to researching but I think there are plenty of quotes out there from Fox on how he wants his offense to be.. and for the easiest answer he is the head coach so it's his offense, defense, special teams and water boy..

I'm not sure what your asking about Tebow but who cares about his following it has nothing to do with with his development or the the Broncos it's just noise in both directions. for every annoying supporter there is an equal more vocal detractor on tv spouting off.

Doesn't matter what he spouted when came in...he could have said he wanted to fart thunder and shit lightning, it has nothing to do with instilling an offensive scheme or the overall offensive game planning. When someone says they don't like 'John Fox's offense' like I did when we hired him, it's not the system we we're talking about because he doesn't have one, it was his conservative philosophy and that's exactly what the hell you are talking about and the two are two different things entirely. Here is a simple explanation a philosophy whether offensive or defensive is how they like that side of the ball ran...it can sometimes include a select group of formations or plays, but a scheme is the overall system that is ran - do we understand the difference?

[Tned]

Doesn't matter what he spouted when came in...he could have said he wanted to fart thunder and shit lightning, it has nothing to do with instilling an offensive scheme or the overall offensive game planning. When someone says they don't like 'John Fox's offense' like I did when we hired him, it's not the system we we're talking about because he doesn't have one, it was his conservative philosophy and that's exactly what the hell you are talking about and the two are two different things entirely. Here is a simple explanation a philosophy whether offensive or defensive is how they like that side of the ball ran...it can sometimes include a select group of formations or plays, but a scheme is the overall system that is ran - do we understand the difference?

Cane, other than a few of your system nuts, nobody cares about Dale Earnhardt or the Perkins restaurant chains.

What you are doing now is classic semantical BS, you are trying to prove your point that McCoy's offense is the same as McDaniels and Fox has no influence by spouting scheme variations and scheme genealogies. Who cares?

Everyone knows that Fox has a GREAT deal of influence on both sides of the ball, because he has some very strong feelings about what a team has to do to win. Run heavy play calling and a focus on stopping the run.

Everything else is semantical BS that you will find that only about three other scheme freaks want to talk/argue with you about.

[Lancane]

Yes, he does, which is completely different than what McDaniels did in NE and tried to do here. Fox requires two things from his coordinators, because he believes it is the basis of winning football --- run the ball and stop the run.

That would be his philosophy or strategy if that helps you understand it better, it's not an offensive scheme or system.


To say that McCoy is running an offense similar to what McDaniels ran, can only be stated by people that haven't watched the games called by both.

The Erhardt-Perkins is at it's core a smashmouth offensive scheme who many mistake Vince Lombardi as the godfather of, when in fact it was Woody Hayes of Ohio State. It relies on a strong running game utilizing both the tailbacks and fullbacks, using tight ends and receivers as run blocking support, and likewise in an effective passing attack set up with play-action. The first smashmouth offenses used the passing aspect sparingly. Ron Erhardt and Ray Perkins developed the system based off the more high powered quarterbacks of the time, but it remained at it's core a run first offense.

Charlie Weiss instilled the Erhardt-Perkins offense in New England, and over the course of a couple years the system underwent changes under Weiss, he started to implementing more spread option and pistol sets into the offense, effectively making it more of a spread offensive system, hence the term the pro-spread which it's been called or Air-Erhardt. At it's core it's still a run first offensive system, but it allows for mismatching and deceptive play calling wherein the offensive coordinator can open up the run game more by using the tailbacks, fullbacks and tight ends effectively in the passing game.

Jeff Davidson, the man who mentored Mike McCoy was a student of the Erhardt-Perkins offense under Charlie Weiss, so in fact it's the same base offensive scheme, the difference isn't the system it's the changes made regarding the formations and plays within the scheme. Josh McDaniels used more shotgun and spread-option formations, a more high powered passing attack like New England uses, McCoy's scheme is more akin to that of the original Erhardt-Perkins utilizing the I-Formation and Pistol formations more then the two aforementioned...he still utilized some of plays but nearly enough to look like the same said system.

[Tned]

That would be his philosophy or strategy if that helps you understand it better, it's not an offensive scheme or system.



The Erhardt-Perkins is at it's core a smashmouth offensive scheme who many mistake Vince Lombardi as the godfather of, when in fact it was Woody Hayes of Ohio State. It relies on a strong running game utilizing both the tailbacks and fullbacks, using tight ends and receivers as run blocking support, and likewise in an effective passing attack set up with play-action. The first smashmouth offenses used the passing aspect sparingly. Ron Erhardt and Ray Perkins developed the system based off the more high powered quarterbacks of the time, but it remained at it's core a run first offense.

Charlie Weiss instilled the Erhardt-Perkins offense in New England, and over the course of a couple years the system underwent changes under Weiss, he started to implementing more spread option and pistol sets into the offense, effectively making it more of a spread offensive system, hence the term the pro-spread which it's been called or Air-Erhardt. At it's core it's still a run first offensive system, but it allows for mismatching and deceptive play calling wherein the offensive coordinator can open up the run game more by using the tailbacks, fullbacks and tight ends effectively in the passing game.

Jeff Davidson, the man who mentored Mike McCoy was a student of the Erhardt-Perkins offense under Charlie Weiss, so in fact it's the same base offensive scheme, the difference isn't the system it's the changes made regarding the formations and plays within the scheme. Josh McDaniels used more shotgun and spread-option formations, a more high powered passing attack like New England uses, McCoy's scheme is more akin to that of the original Erhardt-Perkins utilizing the I-Formation and Pistol formations more then the two aforementioned...he still utilized some of plays but nearly enough to look like the same said system.

I'm sure someone will read this, but as I said, I'm not a scheme-nerd. I'm a nerd in many other areas, but not schemes or mock drafts. I leave that to others.

Bringing it back to something that's relevant to the discussion.

Are you claiming that the plays that are called, run/pass split, types of runs, types of passes, use of personnel that McCoy is using is just like it was with McDaniels? That's essentially what you said a earlier in this thread, which started this. So, is that your position?

[Lancane]

Cane, other than a few of your system nuts, nobody cares about Dale Earnhardt or the Perkins restaurant chains.

What you are doing now is classic semantical BS, you are trying to prove your point that McCoy's offense is the same as McDaniels and Fox has no influence by spouting scheme variations and scheme genealogies. Who cares?

Everyone knows that Fox has a GREAT deal of influence on both sides of the ball, because he has some very strong feelings about what a team has to do to win. Run heavy play calling and a focus on stopping the run.

Everything else is semantical BS that you will find that only about three other scheme freaks want to talk/argue with you about.

Get pissed all you want T, that's on you...not on me. System nuts? I thought this forum was in itself about football at it's core, even though it's regarding a specific team, football is still the main issue or am I wrong?

The reality is that you and Nev have both stated something that is untrue and refuse to man up, as I did about Tebow's so-called issue with holding onto the ball too long or will you say I didn't?

I don't know why you suddenly want to verbally box with me, maybe you need to take a breather or I did something else to piss you off entirely, and if that's the case PM me so we can resolve it as we have done in the past.

Does Fox influence both sides of the ball? Yes, he does because he wants the defense and offense ran a certain way in accordance with his philosophy or strategy. However, that doesn't mean he controls the schemes and systems beyond that certain aspect, Allen runs a 4-3 attack defense...McCoy runs a more conservative Erhardt-Perkins offense, not Fox.

[Tned]

Get pissed all you want T, that's on you...not on me. System nuts? I thought this forum was in itself about football at it's core, even though it's regarding a specific team, football is still the main issue or am I wrong?

The reality is that you and Nev have both stated something that is untrue and refuse to man up, as I did about Tebow's so-called issue with holding onto the ball too long or will you say I didn't?

I don't know why you suddenly want to verbally box with me, maybe you need to take a breather or I did something else to piss you off entirely, and if that's the case PM me so we can resolve it as we have done in the past.

Does Fox influence both sides of the ball? Yes, he does because he wants the defense and offense ran a certain way in accordance with his philosophy or strategy. However, that doesn't mean he controls the schemes and systems beyond that certain aspect, Allen runs a 4-3 attack defense...McCoy runs a more conservative Erhardt-Perkins offense, not Fox.

Cane, I'm far from pissed. I'm just stating the obvious. There's only a handful of people that care as much about the genesis of offensive schemes as you do. There are a few, but not many of you.

The point was that it doesn't really matter. If McDaniels and McCoy both use variations of the same scheme, but one runs lots of shotgun, spread formations, limited running plays, lot's of bubble screens and other short passes in lieu of runs, and the other runs much more between the tackles, runs very few bubble/WR screens, runs more mid-to-deep pas routes, does it really matter if they base scheme, terminology, etc are the same?

Hence my comment about you and a few others caring about the genesis of schemes far more than the masses.

It's very obvious that the type of play calling and offense that McCoy is putting on the field is FAR different than what McDaniels put on the field. Regardless of the scheme/terminology used, it is what Fox said he would have and what he is known for, a very conservative, traditional run-first offense.

[Lancane]

Are you claiming that the plays that are called, run/pass split, types of runs, types of passes, use of personnel that McCoy is using is just like it was with McDaniels? That's essentially what you said a earlier in this thread, which started this. So, is that your position?

McCoy runs the same exact base offensive scheme as McDaniels. Yet, it's dumbed down and I don't mean in the same way that Shanahan dumbed down his West Coast system for Plummer. It wasn't done so for a specific reason other then McDaniels' Air-Erhardt is far more difficult to run effectively then the core of the offense which is the Erhardt-Perkins.

A better way to look at it as that both use the Erhardt-Perkins as the base offense of their respective systems. However, McDaniels utilizes the more high powered passing attack of the Weiss Spread, Shotgun, Spread-Option and Pistol offenses, McCoy uses the more traditional I-Formation passing and running attack along with a more conservative Pistol offense unlike McDaniels. They're both variants of the same offense, but different at the same time except at the core, but McCoy's playbook still came from McDaniels', those spread or high powered passing plays we saw last year after McDaniels left, have seen thrown in now and then, and are seeing more of now with McCoy trying to cater some of the offense for Tebow are the same.

[Tned]

McCoy runs the same exact base offensive scheme as McDaniels. Yet, it's dumbed down and I don't mean in the same way that Shanahan dumbed down his West Coast system for Plummer. It wasn't done so for a specific reason other then McDaniels' Air-Erhardt is far more difficult to run effectively then the core of the offense which is the Erhardt-Perkins.

A better way to look at it as that both use the Erhardt-Perkins as the base offense of their respective systems. However, McDaniels utilizes the more high powered passing attack of the Weiss Spread, Shotgun, Spread-Option and Pistol offenses, McCoy uses the more traditional I-Formation passing and running attack along with a more conservative Pistol offense unlike McDaniels. They're both variants of the same offense, but different at the same time except at the core, but McCoy's playbook still came from McDaniels', those spread or high powered passing plays we saw last year after McDaniels left, have seen thrown in now and then, and are seeing more of now with McCoy trying to cater some of the offense for Tebow are the same.

Cane, we aren't communicating. I'm not arguing that your claim that they use the same base scheme is wrong, I'm saying it doesn't matter. It's what is called on the field that matters (in terms of talking about conservative, run orientated vs. wide open, pass happy, etc.).

Let's try it this way.

The Porche Cayenne and the Volkswagon Touareg share the same base platform, scheme if you will, but what they do on the road is FAR different.

Knowing they share a common platform and have many parts in common is interesting, but what car enthusiasts and owners, really care about is what each of them can do on the road or track. In that environment, they are far different.

Bottom line, the formations and plays that McCoy is calling on the field (even more so when Orton was in) is far different than those that McDaniels called.

[Lancane]

Cane, we aren't communicating. I'm not arguing that your claim that they use the same base scheme is wrong, I'm saying it doesn't matter. It's what is called on the field that matters (in terms of talking about conservative, run orientated vs. wide open, pass happy, etc.).

Let's try it this way.

The Porche Cayenne and the Volkswagon Touareg share the same base platform, scheme if you will, but what they do on the road is FAR different.

Knowing they share a common platform and have many parts in common is interesting, but what car enthusiasts and owners, really care about is what each of them can do on the road or track. In that environment, they are far different.

Bottom line, the formations and plays that McCoy is calling on the field (even more so when Orton was in) is far different than those that McDaniels called.

In that sense you are correct, same frame different body and internal parts. However, Fox doesn't control that aspect, he'd be more akin to the CEO talking about cost and production, whereas McCoy...he'd be considered the engineer who wants to use the V6 over the V12, the vinyl bucket seats over the posh leather, the vinyl dashboard over the wood grain and so forth to do as the CEO wants.

[Tned]

In that sense you are correct, same frame different body and internal parts. However, Fox doesn't control that aspect, he'd be more akin to the CEO talking about cost and production, whereas McCoy...he'd be considered the engineer who wants to use the V6 over the V12, the vinyl bucket seats over the posh leather, the vinyl dashboard over the wood grain and so forth to do as the CEO wants.

Yes, but as the CEO (and in reality, he would be more hands on than most CEOs, as they typically aren't on the plant floor while making the cars), Fox would say, Hey, I want us to have that Touareg type. I want one that isn't as much of a burner, but better off road and in all conditions.

McDaniels offense is the Cayenne, McCoy's is the Touareg, but to a large extent because that's what Fox demands from a coordinator.

That's why the Sirius NFL guys and others that have covered Fox a lot refer to it as Foxball, even though he isn't the OC or call the plays for his teams.

[Lancane]

Yes, but as the CEO (and in reality, he would be more hands on than most CEOs, as they typically aren't on the plant floor while making the cars), Fox would say, Hey, I want us to have that Touareg type. I want one that isn't as much of a burner, but better off road and in all conditions.

McDaniels offense is the Cayenne, McCoy's is the Touareg, but to a large extent because that's what Fox demands from a coordinator.

That's why the Sirius NFL guys and others that have covered Fox a lot refer to it as Foxball, even though he isn't the OC or call the plays for his teams.

And that was something I worried about when we hired him, that his conservative philosophy regarding the offense would indeed hinder the Broncos and continue to show minimum success in a modern NFL that is ruled by high powered offenses. However, I can not blame him entirely for the offense, though I don't believe in conservative offense it can be ran effectively still with a competent offensive coordinator. I would like to see Fox have zero control offensively and a coordinator hired that runs his own system based on his own philosophy not Fox's. I have no problem with Allen, the defense will improve with time and talent, the offense lacks so much on so many levels that I can not say the same.