Debunking the disinformation that sacks against Detroit were from holding ball too long

[Tned]

I posted this in a thread in response to a claim that the sacks against Detroit were Tebow's fault because he was holding the ball well beyond the 5 second window that blocking schemes are designed to give the QB.

I felt pretty confident that the claim that Tebow was holding the ball too long, and that was the reason for the sacks, was way off, so I went to the tape to find out.

Here are the seven sacks against Miami. The time from when the ball is snapped until Tebow is hit, or has to attempt to run from/duck under pass rusher.

1st half
Sack one - Shotgun - (Fumble, recovered by Tebow) -- 2.3 seconds
Sack two - shotgun -- 2.7 seconds
Sack three - shotgun -- 2.9 seconds

2nd half
Sack four - shotgun - (fumble/TD return) -- 2.3 seconds
Sack five -- under center - 3.5 seconds
Sack six -- under cneter - 7.8 seconds - (coverage sack) At three second mark, two WR's covered by six defenders (see pic below) -- shotgun - During the next 4.8 seconds, Tebow moves in pocket, but against six defenders, WR's never get open.
Sack seven -- 2.4 seconds


http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/tebow_detroit_sixth_sack.JPG

UPDATED to add some comparison sack times:

NE/Pit Game:

Ben sack 1 - 3.9 seconds
Ben sack 2 - 6.5 seconds (flushed at 4.0 seconds)
Ben sack 3 - 3.9 seconds (fumble)
Ben sack 4 - 3.2 seconds
Ben sack 5 - 2.4 seconds (rusher COMPLETELY unblocked)

Brady sack 1 - 4.0 seconds
Brady sack 2 - 4.5 seconds (fumble)

Dal/Phi Game:

Vick Sack 1 - 4.8 seconds (shotgun - flushed at 3.0 seconds)
Vick Sack 2 - 3.2 seconds
Vick sack 3 - 2.9 seconds
Vick sack 4 - 3.6 seconds (bootleg)

Romo Sack 1 - 2.7 seconds
Romo Sack 2 - 3.3 seconds (shotgun)
Romo Sack 3 - 2.5 seconds (shotgun)
Romo Sack 4 - 3.2 seconds (shotgun -- stepped up in pocket at 2.5 seconds)

[UnderArmour]

Detroit's defensive line was just too good for us to block, plain and simple. We knew they were good but the way they dominated our offensive line was unreal. Hopefully it served as a growing experience for Beadles, Walton, and Franklin because that was quite a whipping they got.

[claymore]

I read/watched something on Tebow that stated his elongated throwing motion added one second to his release. I think I read/watched somewhere that elite QB's release the ball within 1.5 seconds.

Hypothetically, if D Coordinators know that It takes Tebow 3.5 seconds minimum to throw the ball , they can throw the house at him and get there in the 2.7-3.0 mark and take away our passing game every time.

I was pretty sure that opposing teams would have the blueprint to destroy Tebow by the 5-6th game. Maybe this is the blueprint, a little early?

Not bashing, just hypothesizing.

PS, this doesnt account for WR's not getting open, or plays taking to long to develop. If our OC doesnt fix this with screens, or quick dump offs, I think Our OC knows that Tebow cant dump it off before a certain time threshold so it doesnt matter.

[Jsteve01]

Detroit's defensive line was just too good for us to block, plain and simple. We knew they were good but the way they dominated our offensive line was unreal. Hopefully it served as a growing experience for Beadles, Walton, and Franklin because that was quite a whipping they got.

You know i keep hearing about Walton's performance and he held suh to one tackle and zero sacks. Im not saying suh didn't demand doubles but Walton played well in that game.

[Ravage!!!]

The OL is not built to block 8 man rushes. Someone will ALWAYS get through

[Tned]

The OL is not built to block 8 man rushes. Someone will ALWAYS get through

Unfortunately, several of those sacks were against four or five man rushes (will have to go back and check how many rushed on each sack.

I know for sure there were at least two (I think three) where the rusher just blew by Franklin. Another had a DT bowl past Beadles. I'll check out the exact number of rushers on each sack later today.

[Superchop 7]

Teams this year have been scoring an average of 18 points a game against Detroit.

We scored 10 with a QB so green that he is neon.

With our talent.....we lose that game with Elway in his prime.

[Buff]

That picture adds a lot of value to this thread.

[lgenf]

Tend

Can you also check if Tebow was under center or in shotgun?

[Tned]

Tend

Can you also check if Tebow was under center or in shotgun?

I thought about that shortly after I posted it. Let me go check for each, that will be quick.

[slim]

Unfortunately, several of those sacks were against four or five man rushes (will have to go back and check how many rushed on each sack.

I know for sure there were at least two (I think three) where the rusher just blew by Franklin. Another had a DT bowl past Beadles. I'll check out the exact number of rushers on each sack later today.

Yes, Franklin has been getting abused. I remember several times where his man had basically a free run at the QB.

[Tned]

I updated first post with whether or not he was in shotgun.

[Tned]

Yes, Franklin has been getting abused. I remember several times where his man had basically a free run at the QB.

Yep, and for those not sure about how long is too long, the free runs at Tebow (first sack of each half, plus I think one other), both resulting in fumbles, were 2.3 seconds.

[BroncoJoe]

That picture adds a lot of value to this thread.

Sarcasm?

[TT15Superman]

Yes, Franklin has been getting abused. I remember several times where his man had basically a free run at the QB.Simple answer to "Why has Tebow regressed from last year?"

No more Ryan Harris. D-Bone sucks as an RT.

[arapaho2]

good post tned...it only validates what some of us have been saying , its not all tebow, and certainly when the defense is teeing off, quick slants, wr screens, and screens and generally quick routes and quick throws in general should be called to ease up on the pressure..in fact 31 other teams would do it, somehow we dont

theres another thread on the other site that break downs each sack with time and sequence...what it shows is that these sacks are mainly two fold

1. frankling should be on the bench while harris starts...sadly that cant be done

2. the offensive scheme flat out sucks for the amount of time tebow is given, in that thread it shows the wr routes, mainly 10+ yard routes and the pass rush where tebow is already getting sacked before the wrs on go routes even turn around or make their break


tebow without a doubt needs to be more accurate....but the line and scheme isnt helping

[TT15Superman]

1. frankling should be on the bench while harris starts...sadly that cant be done
Harris is available. However, no way this FO gets him...they don't want to win with Tim. They want to show/say that he was the reason we lost to setup for the next QB from 2012 draft.

[arapaho2]

The OL is not built to block 8 man rushes. Someone will ALWAYS get through


look at the coverage on the pix theres at least 5 defenders blanketing our two wrs....kinda disproves that these defenses are always playing 8 in the box against tebow does it

[claymore]

Whats the average sack time in the NFL 2.9 seconds?

For the detroit game, Tebow averaged 2.68 seconds a sack (minus the 7 second sack).

I wonder what stage in his throw, or drop back he was when sacked? Maybe an additional second wouldnt have helped?

[G_Money]

Average sack time is 2.7 seconds, I believe, or it was a couple years ago. Here:

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/23/when-it-comes-to-holding-the-ball-joe-flacco-tops-ben-roethlisb/


Roethlisberger may be known for extending plays (and racking up high sack totals), but Baltimore's Joe Flacco was actually the king of holding the ball too long in 2010. In logging the time of each and every sack in the NFL in 2010, Flacco's 25 sacks of 3.1 seconds or more were five more than anyone else in the league.

I chose three seconds as the demarcation line because it's a pretty fair cutoff point for where a sack can no longer be blamed on a quarterback's blockers. The median sack time in the NFL last year was 2.7 seconds, just as it was in 2009. Obviously a line should be able to hold a three-man rush back longer than a eight-man all-out blitz, but for practical purposes, three seconds is the point where a quarterback should generally know that he has to get rid of the ball.

The leaderboard of the over-time sacks is filled with names you may expect. Flacco and Roethlisberger lead the way, but Chicago's Jay Cutler isn't far behind. Michael Vick's legs get him out of trouble a lot, but they also mean that he will also rack up some sacks.

At the other end of the spectrum, Peyton Manning has an internal clock that simply doesn't allow him the hold the ball for long. Only one of his 15 sacks last season was when he held the ball for three seconds or more. It runs in the family as Eli Manning also had only one long sack.

Tebow is getting sacked at the median sack time. It's not that he's holding the ball too long, it's that too many times a game we don't have enough protection to help him out. If your line only gives 2.5 to 2.7 seconds, then your QB is gonna be in trouble.

There also aren't enough dump-off options (or he's not seeing them, but I didn't like the dump-off options available in this game - you see that pic and there's NO ONE in the 7 yard area for a dump off).

Tim has MANY problems...but so does the rest of the offense. Hope they clean it up this week.

~G

[BORDERLINE]

Great Job TNED,

I think we are all looking too much into Tebow's performance. Many already after two games claim he will never be that QB others try to find the reason for him struggling. I say it's his first two starts. He has more in store this season. I'm sure the OC and head coach watch this same film you nicely broke down. Since I don't believe the FO wants him to fail I hope they will make the proper adjustments.

The film I want to get my hands on is the film of his last 3 starts from last year. He was actually just a hair above average. What caused him to drop off in his play? That's the million dollar question if you ask me. Maybe it is the O-Line maybe it is not having Lloyd out there. I really don't know but he better find out fast if he wants to be the Broncos QB next year.

[arapaho2]

Whats the average sack time in the NFL 2.9 seconds?

For the detroit game, Tebow averaged 2.68 seconds a sack (minus the 7 second sack).

I wonder what stage in his throw, or drop back he was when sacked? Maybe an additional second wouldnt have helped?


the other thing people are ignoreing is they keep saying he needs to throw the ball away...but if you look at most of his sacks...he cant because he either doesnt have time to do anything but brace for the impact....or he cant because he cant get outside the tackle box

[arapaho2]

Great Job TNED,

I think we are all looking too much into Tebow's performance. Many already after two games claim he will never be that QB others try to find the reason for him struggling. I say it's his first two starts. He has more in store this season. I'm sure the OC and head coach watch this same film you nicely broke down. Since I don't believe the FO wants him to fail I hope they will make the proper adjustments.

The film I want to get my hands on is the film of his last 3 starts from last year. He was actually just a hair above average. What caused him to drop off in his play? That's the million dollar question if you ask me. Maybe it is the O-Line maybe it is not having Lloyd out there. I really don't know but he better find out fast if he wants to be the Broncos QB next year.


maybe its the fact we had a interim coach who wanted to prove he could win, but had nothing to lose

vrs a old fashioned coach playing conservative ball

[TXBRONC]

I posted this in a thread in response to a claim that the sacks against Detroit were Tebow's fault because he was holding the ball well beyond the 5 second window that blocking schemes are designed to give the QB.

I felt pretty confident that the claim that Tebow was holding the ball too long, and that was the reason for the sack was way off, so I went to the tape to find out.

Here are the seven sacks against Miami. The time from when the ball is snapped until Tebow is hit, or has to attempt to run from/duck under pass rusher.

1st half
Sack one - Shotgun - (Fumble, recovered by Tebow) -- 2.3 seconds
Sack two - shotgun -- 2.7 seconds
Sack three - shotgun -- 2.9 seconds

2nd half
Sack four - shotgun - (fumble/TD return) -- 2.3 seconds
Sack five -- under center - 3.5 seconds
Sack six -- under cneter - 7.8 seconds - (coverage sack) At three second mark, two WR's covered by six defenders (see pic below) -- shotgun - During the next 4.8 seconds, Tebow moves in pocket, but against six defenders, WR's never get open.
Sack seven -- 2.4 seconds


http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/tebow_detroit_sixth_sack.JPG

That was true for the Lions game but it isn't only reason he's gotten sacked. There are times he holds onto the ball way to long which by no means is unique to Tebow but I that has also been true as well.

[BroncoStud]

We are witnessing a combination of a horrible OC and a QB who isn't a passer.

The results are ugly. But they were very ugly with Orton as well. So my lean is towards Mike McCoy not having a clue how to run an effective offense.

[Tned]

That was true for the Lions game but it isn't only reason he's gotten sacked. There are times he holds onto the ball way to long which by no means is unique to Tebow but I that has also been true as well.

Yes, but I was responding directly to people claiming the seven sacks in the Detroit game were due to him holding the ball too long. It simply isn't the case. Now, the one 8 second sack, he should have thrown the ball away with the two WRs against six defenders, but the fact is that was the end of the game and they were trying to make plays, so you were beyond the "throw it away to avoid a sack" stage of the game.


The other six sacks were after an average of 2.68 seconds, with a median of 2.55 seconds.

The three sacks under that 2.55 second are simply out of the QB's control, with the exception of maybe saying he should have recognized the rush pre-snap and audibled, but since they were man on man Franklin and Beadles being beat, I think that would be wrong. The QB assumes his linemen will at least slow down the man they are blocking.

On the others, two of them were still less than three seconds, and I will double check, but I don't believe that anyone was open in that time frame on those sacks (from when I reviewed them earlier in the week without timing the sacks).

I think I recall only one of the 7 sacks having a receiver 'partially' open prior to the sack.

There is a lot you can fault Tebow for, including the fact that since he's missing too many throws, he's inviting the heavy pass rushes/blitzes, but in the Detroit game you can't blame him for holding the ball too long.

[Tned]

We are witnessing a combination of a horrible OC and a QB who isn't a passer.

The results are ugly. But they were very ugly with Orton as well. So my lean is towards Mike McCoy not having a clue how to run an effective offense.

It's also important to note that Tebow was much more accurate last year. I don't know if the completion % shows that, but since a couple weeks ago I reviewed every pass he threw in the three games at the end of last year, I know his passes were MUCH more accurate last season. I'm not sure what's causing the regression.

[BroncoJoe]

It's also important to note that Tebow was much more accurate last year. I don't know if the completion % shows that, but since a couple weeks ago I reviewed every pass he threw in the three games at the end of last year, I know his passes were MUCH more accurate last season. I'm not sure what's causing the regression.

They're (coaches, media, fans, etc) are trying to make him into something he's not: a classic pocket passer.

[Tned]

They're (coaches, media, fans, etc) are trying to make him into something he's not: a classic pocket passer.

I'll rewatch the passes from last year again, hopefully tomorrow, but my gut is that we were more spread out last year, whether under center or in shotgun. That they were running more three and four WR sets, but I'll take a look and confirm.

[jlarsiii]

It's also important to note that Tebow was much more accurate last year. I don't know if the completion % shows that, but since a couple weeks ago I reviewed every pass he threw in the three games at the end of last year, I know his passes were MUCH more accurate last season. I'm not sure what's causing the regression.

Not really Tned. Last year his completion % was 50. This year it is 46%. So where is this accuracy that you speak of?

Link for stats: http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/13200/tim-tebow

[TXBRONC]

I'll rewatch the passes from last year again, hopefully tomorrow, but my gut is that we were more spread out last year, whether under center or in shotgun. That they were running more three and four WR sets, but I'll take a look and confirm.

Our base set was three wide, Lloyd, Royal, and Gaffney.

[Tned]

Not really Tned. Last year his completion % was 50. This year it is 46%. So where is this accuracy that you speak of?

Link for stats: http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/13200/tim-tebow

As I said, in the very quote you used, it's not about the completion %.

It's called reviewing the passes and seeing the misses/completions. I can't pipe my eyes into your brain, so all I can tell you is if you really are curious, drop the few bucks it takes to get NFL Game Rewind and watch those passes from last year yourself. He was not throwing the airballs and other far-off passes last year like he has this year.

[Nick]

I keep looking at picture and yelling for tebow to anticipate the slant on the bottom and put it in there... :lol:

Seriously, Our wide receivers were getting two steps on the DB's consistently. If he looked off a wide receiver and had some accuracy he can have them make a play.

It is a no brainer he is holding onto the ball to long and after factoring in his plays Tebow holds onto the ball more then any QB in the league.. a whopping 3.6-3.7 seconds.

Looked up Orton's and he was at 2.6 seconds avg

Also our line is not as bad as people think. We got one QB willing to just throw the ball and another hesitant and wont look around.

Just so everyone knows about how awful this line is...

The Broncos are currently fifth-best in the NFL at allowing time in the pocket without pressure.

[Tned]

I keep looking at picture and yelling for tebow to anticipate the slant on the bottom and put it in there... :lol:

Seriously, Our wide receivers were getting two steps on the DB's consistently. If he looked off a wide receiver and had some accuracy he can have them make a play.

It is a no brainer he is holding onto the ball to long and after factoring in his plays Tebow holds onto the ball more then any QB in the league.. a whopping 3.6-3.7 seconds.

Looked up Orton's and he was at 2.6 seconds avg

Also our line is not as bad as people think. We got one QB willing to just throw the ball and another hesitant and wont look around.

Just so everyone knows about how awful this line is...

The Broncos are currently fifth-best in the NFL at allowing time in the pocket without pressure.

Unfortunately, you are mixing stats. On his sacks, Tebow isn't holding the 3.6-3.7 seconds (certainly not in the Detroit game). Instead, an average of 2.68 seconds.

As to holding the ball longer on non-sack plays, there are other factors, such as whether receivers are open, does he wait longer before throwing it away, or is he simply taking too long to make progressions and throw. Probably some of each.

Regardless, when it came to the sacks in the Detroit game he didn't hold the ball anywhere near as long as your numbers, and holding the ball too long wasn't the reason for the sacks.

[Nick]

but in the Detroit game you can't blame him for holding the ball too long.

He does not have the ability to make the throws other QB's can. Wide receivers are getting enough separation to make something happen if he was able to place the ball where he needs to.

[Tned]

He does not have the ability to make the throws other QB's can. Wide receivers are getting enough separation to make something happen if he was able to place the ball where he needs to.

Do you have the game DVR'd? If so, I suggest you go rewatch the 7 sacks, and see how many of those he had an opportunity to get rid of the ball. Better yet, watch it on Game Rewind, as at least 6 of the sacks have the high sideline coaches cam, so you can see where all the players were.

You guys are making blanket statements that don't match what actually happened.

[Nick]

Unfortunately, you are mixing stats. On his sacks, Tebow isn't holding the 3.6-3.7 seconds (certainly not in the Detroit game). Instead, an average of 2.68 seconds.

As to holding the ball longer on non-sack plays, there are other factors, such as whether receivers are open, does he wait longer before throwing it away, or is he simply taking too long to make progressions and throw. Probably some of each.

Regardless, when it came to the sacks in the Detroit game he didn't hold the ball anywhere near as long as your numbers, and holding the ball too long wasn't the reason for the sacks.

On his sacks maybe not but overall.

So let's say he got ball out at 2.6 and only had 2-3 sacks... So two, three broken plays he couldn't make a play.... The rest of the entire game and I kept rewinding fast forwarding during game... He always has opportunity.

I am sure I am going to see more when I get that rewind pass deal.

Progressions? I only saw him go through 2 progressions about 2-3 times that game.

[BroncoJoe]

"The truth is in the eye of the beholder."

[Tned]

"The truth is in the eye of the beholder."

It really isn't. Perception is, truth isn't.

The reason I make that point is that there are certain 'facts' that can't be disputed, such as how long from snap to sack or hit/disruption.

Trying to alter the facts that in all but two of his sacks, he had almost no time to get rid of the ball, doesn't change the "truth."

[Tned]

Here's an interesting article from a couple years ago that looked at the time from snap to sack. You will notice that based on the 6 sacks against Detroit (throwing out the end of game coverage sack), Tebow would be around the top 10, shortest time to be sacked.

You might also note where Orton was on this list.

http://www.aolnews.com/2009/09/23/which-quarterbacks-hold-the-ball-too-long/

[Nick]

I watched 4 of 7 sacks including the fumble one and he has a person open and even more faults on Tebow... I really can't wait to get the rewind now.

[Tned]

I watched 4 of 7 sacks including the fumble one and he has a person open and even more faults on Tebow... I really can't wait to get the rewind now.

Yes, he had a receiver open, but he was stripped at 2.3 seconds while attempting to throw to one of the TWO open receivers.

You need to look at the coaches film on rewind, because your not grasping the big picture.

The receivers were just making their breaks at about 2.1-2.2 seconds, and he was about to throw to one, and the defender simply blew by Franklin.

I'll await your breakdown of the 7 sacks, and exactly which ones had which receivers open that he could have hit and avoided the sack.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Whats the average sack time in the NFL 2.9 seconds?

For the detroit game, Tebow averaged 2.68 seconds a sack (minus the 7 second sack).

I wonder what stage in his throw, or drop back he was when sacked? Maybe an additional second wouldnt have helped?

It seemed like Tebow pulled the ball down a lot during the Detroit game. He'd get to the top of his drop, start to load up, then pull it down because (and I'm guessing here because I couldn't see coverage down the field) either the WRs weren't in the proper place for their route (not looking, not in the window, etc), or because they weren't open. I saw him trying to make reads and look off of guys, but he's still slow at it. Maybe his wind up is an issue but with how quickly Avril was on him the two times the ball was knocked out, I don't think a faster release would've helped much.

[I Eat Staples]

Franklin needs to be moved to guard, he can replace Beadles and then we can get an actual RT.

[NightTerror218]

I read/watched something on Tebow that stated his elongated throwing motion added one second to his release. I think I read/watched somewhere that elite QB's release the ball within 1.5 seconds.

Hypothetically, if D Coordinators know that It takes Tebow 3.5 seconds minimum to throw the ball , they can throw the house at him and get there in the 2.7-3.0 mark and take away our passing game every time.

I was pretty sure that opposing teams would have the blueprint to destroy Tebow by the 5-6th game. Maybe this is the blueprint, a little early?

Not bashing, just hypothesizing.

PS, this doesnt account for WR's not getting open, or plays taking to long to develop. If our OC doesnt fix this with screens, or quick dump offs, I think Our OC knows that Tebow cant dump it off before a certain time threshold so it doesnt matter.

Let me adjust your math....elite QBs 1.5 plus 1 for elongated motion 2.5. Where is the 3.5 from? You you saying that elite QBs are 1 second faster then good QBs and that Tebow is 1 second behind them?

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Franklin needs to be moved to guard, he can replace Beadles and then we can get an actual RT.

That's what I've been saying all along... :beer:

[NightTerror218]

Harris is available. However, no way this FO gets him...they don't want to win with Tim. They want to show/say that he was the reason we lost to setup for the next QB from 2012 draft.

I think Harris in on IR with the Eagles right now.

[Lancane]

It really isn't. Perception is, truth isn't.

The reason I make that point is that there are certain 'facts' that can't be disputed, such as how long from snap to sack or hit/disruption.

Trying to alter the facts that in all but two of his sacks, he had almost no time to get rid of the ball, doesn't change the "truth."

I think Joe was saying that no matter T, your not going to win because one's own truth lies within the believer's own eyes.

Yes, I can admit that I even made an 'amateurish' mistake, because I would never lie nor purposely skew the truth in order to prove a point, maybe it was divined from my own emotions on the matter as you said, that I can say is possible.

At most a quarterback should never take more then 5 seconds which is abnormally long, but it's not the window I would want a quarterback to need every down to pass the ball, the NFL average is probably about 3.8 or 3.9 seconds, now he has had a few that were abnormally long, but still. And I have to wonder if you've accounted for quarterback pressures, blown plays and so forth?

This is on timing and timing alone, so I won't go into his accuracy issues which are still horrific, no matter what anyone wants to believe, of that I am positive. I don't know if you can get film on JeMarcus Russell T, but he was another quarterback that like Tebow was deceptive in the length he held the ball, I was wondering if you thought there were similarities between the two if you watched them, because I see some. Then again, my perception could be flawed due to emotions.

[NightTerror218]

Not really Tned. Last year his completion % was 50. This year it is 46%. So where is this accuracy that you speak of?

Link for stats: http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/13200/tim-tebow

By accurate he could mean in the ball park of the WR. Less wobbly balls, stuff like that. He is blatantly way off this year on some passes.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I thought 3 seconds was the window in which you were suppose to get the ball out. I know that Tebow was hit in less time than that on numerous occasions, but five seconds is too long.

[Lancane]

I think Harris in on IR with the Eagles right now.

I believe he was waived after he had back surgery Phidelt, I believe he got an injury settlement and then was waived.

[NightTerror218]

I think Joe was saying that no matter T, your not going to win because one's own truth lies within the believer's own eyes.

Yes, I can admit that I even made an 'amateurish' mistake, because I would never lie nor purposely skew the truth in order to prove a point, maybe it was divined from my own emotions on the matter as you said, that I can say is possible.

At most a quarterback should never take more then 5 seconds which is abnormally long, but it's not the window I would want a quarterback to need every down to pass the ball, the NFL average is probably about 3.8 or 3.9 seconds, now he has had a few that were abnormally long, but still. And I have to wonder if you've accounted for quarterback pressures, blown plays and so forth?

This is on timing and timing alone, so I won't go into his accuracy issues which are still horrific, no matter what anyone wants to believe, of that I am positive. I don't know if you can get film on JeMarcus Russell T, but he was another quarterback that like Tebow was deceptive in the length he held the ball, I was wondering if you thought there were similarities between the two if you watched them, because I see some. Then again, my perception could be flawed due to emotions.

That is a harsh comparision. Tebow who works out and watches film, to a QB who was fat and lazy and never tried to improve his game and got horrible. Russell coming to camp 30 pounds heavier then the end of the season? Come on, way way different. And he was also #1 overall talent compared to a maybe 2 rounder taken early.

[NightTerror218]

I believe he was waived after he had back surgery Phidelt, I believe he got an injury settlement and then was waived.

OK, I just remember his season ending injury right after going to the Eagles.

[NorCalBronco7]

I posted this in a thread in response to a claim that the sacks against Detroit were Tebow's fault because he was holding the ball well beyond the 5 second window that blocking schemes are designed to give the QB.

I felt pretty confident that the claim that Tebow was holding the ball too long, and that was the reason for the sack was way off, so I went to the tape to find out.

Here are the seven sacks against Miami. The time from when the ball is snapped until Tebow is hit, or has to attempt to run from/duck under pass rusher.

1st half
Sack one - Shotgun - (Fumble, recovered by Tebow) -- 2.3 seconds
Sack two - shotgun -- 2.7 seconds
Sack three - shotgun -- 2.9 seconds

2nd half
Sack four - shotgun - (fumble/TD return) -- 2.3 seconds
Sack five -- under center - 3.5 seconds
Sack six -- under cneter - 7.8 seconds - (coverage sack) At three second mark, two WR's covered by six defenders (see pic below) -- shotgun - During the next 4.8 seconds, Tebow moves in pocket, but against six defenders, WR's never get open.
Sack seven -- 2.4 seconds


http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/tebow_detroit_sixth_sack.JPG

Im with you in that I didnt see Tebow hold onto the ball to long, but 5 seconds in the pocket is an eternity. That cant be the basis time for pass protection. My guess is around 3 seconds the pocket tends to callapse.

[jlarsiii]

As I said, in the very quote you used, it's not about the completion %.

It's called reviewing the passes and seeing the misses/completions. I can't pipe my eyes into your brain, so all I can tell you is if you really are curious, drop the few bucks it takes to get NFL Game Rewind and watch those passes from last year yourself. He was not throwing the airballs and other far-off passes last year like he has this year.

The stats don't lie Tned. He wasn't accurate last year, and he is even worse this year. No one with a 50% completion percentage, or lower, has ever been called 'accurate' in the NFL. No one.

You can nitpick fine details all you want, like wasting money to watch him miss throws last season, but it doesn't change the point that he was not statistically accurate last year and he is even worse this season. Regression is the name of the game for this player...

[Northman]

So can you Tned explain to me why the Oline got WORSE when Tebow took over? While Orton got sacked at times and had his own issues it was never this bad so why now are you claiming that the Oline as a whole has regressed? It wasnt like the defenses before were not blitzing or stacking the line to stop the run.

[Lancane]

I thought 3 seconds was the window in which you were suppose to get the ball out. I know that Tebow was hit in less time than that on numerous occasions, but five seconds is too long.

It is abnormally long, but collegiate programs won't even look at prospects that hold onto the ball for more then five seconds on average, even scrambling quarterbacks. You want a quarterback prospect to be able to drop back or step up in the pocket, depending on the offensive play, go through his progressions while reading the breaks in coverage and passing an accurate and catchable ball, unless he's pressured and is forced outside the pocket or into scrambling. The NFL average is about 3.8 or 3.9, which includes all quarterbacks on NFL rosters, so about 80 some odd individuals. The reason a collegiate program won't recruit quarterbacks who average more then 5 seconds is because they feel those who average five or less on average can be coached properly, whereas those who average more will struggle even with coaching.

Tebow's average is probably higher overall about 3.8 seconds, but if you looked at the timing on the sacks as Tned showed me, I would say discount his abnormally long holds of about 7.8 or 8.0 seconds which are fewer then I myself believed, then his average is closer to the three second mark on sacks. I'm not sure regarding quarterback pressures which should also be included in the discussion.

[Lancane]

That is a harsh comparision. Tebow who works out and watches film, to a QB who was fat and lazy and never tried to improve his game and got horrible. Russell coming to camp 30 pounds heavier then the end of the season? Come on, way way different. And he was also #1 overall talent compared to a maybe 2 rounder taken early.

Phidelt, I'm talking about skill set, accuracy issues and the like, even the deceptiveness of how long they both held onto the ball. Not their determination or health related habits!

:lol:

[NightTerror218]

So can you Tned explain to me why the Oline got WORSE when Tebow took over? While Orton got sacked at times and had his own issues it was never this bad so why now are you claiming that the Oline as a whole has regressed? It wasnt like the defenses before were not blitzing or stacking the line to stop the run.

For one Detroit has one of the best DL and are 3rd in total sacks. The only team the Orton played that had decent sacks was Cinci. And because Orton threw the ball away a lot and I mean a lot. At a hint of pressure the ball was gone.

Edit: Franklin has been playing horrible too. They have loaded his side since its Tebow's blind side.

[NightTerror218]

Phidelt, I'm talking about skill set, accuracy issues and the like, even the deceptiveness of how long they both held onto the ball. Not their determination or health related habits!

:lol:

Russell blows Tebow out of the water but his lack of dedication made him a lard bucket that could not play QB because he was so out of shape and dumb.

[Nick]

Let me adjust your math....elite QBs 1.5 plus 1 for elongated motion 2.5. Where is the 3.5 from? You you saying that elite QBs are 1 second faster then good QBs and that Tebow is 1 second behind them?

Any good QB in the league will be able to adjust and able to get rid of ball at 2 seconds.

Romo, which is not elite consistently gets ball out at 2 seconds.

You need to have a quick release to make it in this league. Crazy that garrard with his unorthodox wind up also consistently got ball out around 2 seconds because of line.

I would not say it is the biggest factor on a great QB, There is so many other things to consider in poise, anticipation, reading defenses, accuracy, leadership, confidence, progressions etc. (This why you get a lot of busts in NFL because some qb's could be really good in some areas and they think they can fix others).

This math would be totally across the wall. If they respect that you can pass and release quick. They would have to switch up their defense a bit. releasing under 2 seconds doesn't mean you are going to be great because there are so many more things that can make you a bad QB.

[NightTerror218]

Any good QB in the league will be able to adjust and able to get rid of ball at 2 seconds.

Romo, which is not elite consistently gets ball out at 2 seconds.

You need to have a quick release to make it in this league. Crazy that garrard with his unorthodox wind up also consistently got ball out around 2 seconds because of line.

I would not say it is the biggest factor on a great QB, There is so many other things to consider in poise, anticipation, reading defenses, accuracy, leadership, confidence, progressions etc. (This why you get a lot of busts in NFL because some qb's could be really good in some areas and they think they can fix others).

This math would be totally across the wall. If they respect that you can pass and release quick. They would have to switch up their defense a bit. releasing under 2 seconds doesn't mean you are going to be great because there are so many more things that can make you a bad QB.

I understand that, I was wondering where 3.5 seconds came from for Tebow?

[Northman]

Im with you in that I didnt see Tebow hold onto the ball to long, but 5 seconds in the pocket is an eternity. That cant be the basis time for pass protection. My guess is around 3 seconds the pocket tends to callapse.

Agreed.

Also, the idea of putting Tim in the shotgun was so that he can make his reads better and much more quickly. He hasnt been able to adjust his decision making in that regard. If he cant fix that and also his accuracy issues i doubt he will get much better in the long run. The Oline is ranked 15th in the league, there's no reason why he should be struggling as much as he is right now.

[claymore]

Let me adjust your math....elite QBs 1.5 plus 1 for elongated motion 2.5. Where is the 3.5 from? You you saying that elite QBs are 1 second faster then good QBs and that Tebow is 1 second behind them?

Im saying that If Tebow is an elite QB he can release the ball at 2.5 seconds (add a second because of the throwing motion). I dont think he is an elite QB. So he probably falls to 3.0, 3.5 or more seconds per drop.

The point... Maybe detroit did their math. They said we cant get their in 1.5 seconds (Elite QB) We cant get there in 2.0 Seconds (mediocre to good QB). But we can get their in 2.5 (Mediocre-bad QB) seconds every time. Tebow cant release the ball quicker than 2.5 seconds.

Everything after the 2.5 seconds is just a guess, I dont know the release time of Tebow. But I do know that elite QB is 1.5 seconds, and I know Tebows throwing motion adds a second to his release.

[Lancane]

So can you Tned explain to me why the Oline got WORSE when Tebow took over? While Orton got sacked at times and had his own issues it was never this bad so why now are you claiming that the Oline as a whole has regressed? It wasnt like the defenses before were not blitzing or stacking the line to stop the run.

I think I can North, and of this I am pretty positive. I've mentioned the struggles the line has had because the mixed blocking schemes we've been using, in the first three games with Orton we were using the man-to-man and zone about equally, 50/50 or 40/60, we saw a lot of miscues on traps and pulls, remember Moreno running into his own lineman? However, the last two games with Orton under center, the team was more man-to-man dominant around 80/20 and the line looked improved over those two games, they've returned to how the line was more during the first three, more zone in the mix and I think they did so because they felt the spread option type plays would benefit from a more zone orientated blocking scheme...the problem is that some of the offensive lineman are better in the zone (Kuper & Clady), while others are better in a power scheme (Franklin, Beadles & Walton). There is a reason that zone blocking schemes require smaller, faster offensive lineman because the way the line moves, the traps, pulls, etc. Now, Franklin was suppose to have quick feet, that was a positive about him and I believe he could probably do well inside at left guard, whereas Beadles is more typical of a zone offensive tackle and should be tried outside and they may do well...at least worth the try IMHO. They need to fix the offensive line and figure out the blocking scheme, changing the scheme back and forth doesn't help the line progress at all.

[Northman]

For one Detroit has one of the best DL and are 3rd in total sacks. The only team the Orton played that had decent sacks was Cinci. And because Orton threw the ball away a lot and I mean a lot. At a hint of pressure the ball was gone.

Edit: Franklin has been playing horrible too. They have loaded his side since its Tebow's blind side.

So then Tebow really is holding onto the ball too long instead of throwing it away.

[Nick]

Looked into the sacks... Still on the QB. Just Tebow shouldn't get blame. While other Vet QB's could have had made a play I don't blame tebow on most of the sacks.

Ryan Fitzpatrick could have easily made a play on most of them... but years ago he probably couldn't.

He is new and this area has a big learning curve on reading defenses, knowing when to adjust, anticipate or releasing quick.

They would have got any new QB in the game on some of those sacks.

The rest of the game is a different story... though TNed

[NightTerror218]

So then Tebow really is holding onto the ball too long instead of throwing it away.

No, he doesn't like to throw it away, likes to break the tackles and then make a play. He said in his interview this week he doesn't like to throw it away but he is going to have to start to do it more to not take so many sacks.

[Nick]

Im saying that If Tebow is an elite QB he can release the ball at 2.5 seconds (add a second because of the throwing motion). I dont think he is an elite QB. So he probably falls to 3.0, 3.5 or more seconds per drop.

The point... Maybe detroit did their math. They said we cant get their in 1.5 seconds (Elite QB) We cant get there in 2.0 Seconds (mediocre to good QB). But we can get their in 2.5 (Mediocre-bad QB) seconds every time. Tebow cant release the ball quicker than 2.5 seconds.

Everything after the 2.5 seconds is just a guess, I dont know the release time of Tebow. But I do know that elite QB is 1.5 seconds, and I know Tebows throwing motion adds a second to his release.

Tebow and an elite QB should not be uses in same sentence.

Detroit was going to pressure him and make it so he couldn't run. If they take the run away he would have to beat him with a quick release in which he can't. You add quick release and not be able throw accurate and go through progressions WITH the typical not reading defenses and adjusting equals a disastrous day.

The guy in my avatar has a quick release and goes through progressions well... Should fix the problem.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Tebow's throwing motion does not add 1 second to his delivery. That notion is absurd.

[lgenf]

So can you Tned explain to me why the Oline got WORSE when Tebow took over? While Orton got sacked at times and had his own issues it was never this bad so why now are you claiming that the Oline as a whole has regressed? It wasnt like the defenses before were not blitzing or stacking the line to stop the run.

I can north

We played one of the best front fours in the league last week

If we had played Orton at QB against that set with no mcgahee my thought is that he would have been sacked nearly as many times, maybe 5

Let's not forget Tebow actually fought off a couple of pressures n that game and got the ball away or ran or whatever

[Lancane]

To be fair, even though I am emotionally driven on the subject at the moment...Tebow is within a window where coaches may see that he can be coached to hold on to the ball even less. Do they take into consideration his elongated windup? I don't know, but that will cause his timing to be off more times than not, I don't see him breaking the 2.5 second mark with proper progressions and reads for him and still throwing accurate, catchable passes. And that could be because I've given up on him, I've tried to support him...but I cringe even more then I did with Orton when he's under center. And let's face facts, the offense is struggling because his ability has skewed their timing in whole, not to mention that their having to learn new offensive plays added to play to Tebow's strengths. Accuracy issues, under and overthrown passes, questionable progressions and defensive reads, there is a lot more wrong with Tebow at quarterback then people want to believe.

[claymore]

Tebow and an elite QB should not be uses in same sentence.

Detroit was going to pressure him and make it so he could run. If they take the run away he would have to beat him with a quick release in which he can't. You add quick release and not be able throw accurate and go through progressions WITH the typical not reading defenses and adjusting equals a disastrous day.

I think Tebow is as close to being an Elite QB as spencer Larsen is.

I want to know how long Tebow needs to throw the ball. If a good QB can get rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds, how long does it take Tebow. The average sack is 2.9 seconds. If Tebow needs 3.5 seconds all this is a moot point.

[Northman]

No, he doesn't like to throw it away, likes to break the tackles and then make a play. He said in his interview this week he doesn't like to throw it away but he is going to have to start to do it more to not take so many sacks.

Yes, he will need to do that, that much i agree. While not turning the ball over is a plus taking sacks also kills momentum and gives away field position so he will need to improve a lot in that area.

[Northman]

I can north

We played one of the best front fours in the league last week

If we had played Orton at QB against that set with no mcgahee my thought is that he would have been sacked nearly as many times, maybe 5

Let's not forget Tebow actually fought off a couple of pressures n that game and got the ball away or ran or whatever

Nah, i disagree. While we still would have lost Orton is used to getting the ball off quicker than Tebow so his sack numbers wouldnt of been higher than Tebow's. I think this notion that Tebow has performed better than Orton (or would have been) is completely false. Orton sucks but he is still a veteran and at least has a better understanding of what to do with the ball more than Tebow does at this point. Call it chemistry with the offense, call it experience or whatever but there is no way Orton would of looked worse than Tebow in that game.

[claymore]

Tebow's throwing motion does not add 1 second to his delivery. That notion is absurd.

Its true, I watched a whole show on it. I dont remember if it was at the combine, talking heads or whatever.

They (talking heads) showed how a DE that ran like a 4.5 40 could cover 20 feet in that one second. And that Tebows release would equate to more sacks...

[NorCalBronco7]

Its true, I watched a whole show on it. I dont remember if it was at the combine, talking heads or whatever.

They (talking heads) showed how a DE that ran like a 4.5 40 could cover 20 feet in that one second. And that Tebows release would equate to more sacks...

How many starting DEs run a 4.5 forty? Two?

Tebows throwing motion probably adds closer to a half second to the play.

[claymore]

Here is a good article on Tajh Boyd. It is right on point what we are discussing here and even covers Tebow a little.

http://www.theitem.com/sports/article_6f7b8ec0-fb47-11e0-9c3f-001cc4c002e0.html

I call it good because it supports my POV, so most probably will think its a steaming turd. :D

[NightTerror218]

Its true, I watched a whole show on it. I dont remember if it was at the combine, talking heads or whatever.

They (talking heads) showed how a DE that ran like a 4.5 40 could cover 20 feet in that one second. And that Tebows release would equate to more sacks...

It all just does not add up what you are saying. Some QBs like Rodgers are really quick (1.5) and tebow is slower. But the speed depends also on the drop they are doing or if shot gun. I would have to say his actually throwing motion is not 1 second slower. Go look at tape, it is slower but not 1 second compared to Rodgers (i use him because I believe he is the fastest in the league.)

[claymore]

How many starting DEs run a 4.5 forty? Two?

Tebows throwing motion probably adds closer to a half second to the play.

Ok, if they run a 5.0 40 its like 19 feet.

[arapaho2]

I think Tebow is as close to being an Elite QB as spencer Larsen is.

I want to know how long Tebow needs to throw the ball. If a good QB can get rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds, how long does it take Tebow. The average sack is 2.9 seconds. If Tebow needs 3.5 seconds all this is a moot point.


heres my issue with that thinking

what differance does it make if he can get rid of it in 2.5 or 3.5

if your wrs aint open and double covered....at 2.5...and
3.5 second into the play

if mccoy is running plays that require the wr to have 3+ seconds on the designed route...does it matter if tebow needs 3.5 seconds when he's getting sacked at 2.78

one needs to look at the 4th qrter of the miami game, the first drive of the lions game and the two long drives in the forth ....if tebow cant throw the ball without haveing 3.5 seconds...why did we move the ball at that time as opposed to the rest of the time in the games

to me its as simple as looking at deckers td, a quick wr screen play....tebow didnt need 3.5 seconds to get that ball there

[NightTerror218]

Here is a good article on Tajh Boyd. It is right on point what we are discussing here and even covers Tebow a little.

http://www.theitem.com/sports/article_6f7b8ec0-fb47-11e0-9c3f-001cc4c002e0.html

I call it good because it supports my POV, so most probably will think its a steaming turd. :D

So according to the article tebows throwing motion add TENTHS of seconds, not a second to his release.

[NorCalBronco7]

Ok, if they run a 5.0 40 its like 19 feet.

If there as quick as Von Miller, then maybe. MAYBE. :D

[claymore]

It all just does not add up what you are saying. Some QBs like Rodgers are really quick (1.5) and tebow is slower. But the speed depends also on the drop they are doing or if shot gun. I would have to say his actually throwing motion is not 1 second slower. Go look at tape, it is slower but not 1 second compared to Rodgers (i use him because I believe he is the fastest in the league.)

At the time I watched the show it was 1 second. I dont know what it was as of Sunday.

Foot work is another issue all together.

[claymore]

So according to the article tebows throwing motion add TENTHS of seconds, not a second to his release.

"Scouts were concerned about the 10ths of seconds Tebow's delivery added to snap-to-throw times."

[NightTerror218]

At the time I watched the show it was 1 second. I dont know what it was as of Sunday.

Foot work is another issue all together.

Footwork is part of the timing. The article mentioned it, from snap to throw. With bad footwork you are slower.

[Cugel]

Tebow is getting sacked at the median sack time. It's not that he's holding the ball too long, it's that too many times a game we don't have enough protection to help him out. If your line only gives 2.5 to 2.7 seconds, then your QB is gonna be in trouble.

Those QBs are not facing 8 man fronts are they? So, the AVERAGE sack time is a completely MEANINGLESS stat!

What a worthless argument! Tebow is holding the ball too long because he's facing an 8 man front. To beat that you have to throw in about 1.5 seconds or even less.

And the coaching staff HAD those plays designed. They weren't caught by surprise by the defensive tactic and had the right answer: a quick pass to break the 1 on 1 coverage downfield.

Hit a couple of passes like that and the defense will be forced to back off and drop a S in coverage.

But, he never hit those passes to the wide open WR, did he? And so defenses continue to pressure him.

The Tebowners refuse to recognize reality: The team doesn't need bubble-screens or other stuff. Just have Tebow hit a couple passes instead of throwing 10 yards over the head of his WR and the defense will be forced to play honest and he won't be sacked so much.

[claymore]

heres my issue with that thinking

what differance does it make if he can get rid of it in 2.5 or 3.5

if your wrs aint open and double covered....at 2.5...and
3.5 second into the play

if mccoy is running plays that require the wr to have 3+ seconds on the designed route...does it matter if tebow needs 3.5 seconds when he's getting sacked at 2.78

one needs to look at the 4th qrter of the miami game, the first drive of the lions game and the two long drives in the forth ....if tebow cant throw the ball without haveing 3.5 seconds...why did we move the ball at that time as opposed to the rest of the time in the games

to me its as simple as looking at deckers td, a quick wr screen play....tebow didnt need 3.5 seconds to get that ball there
I dont know all the answers, just stating that if a D coordinator knows they can get to Tebow in 2.9 seconds everytime, and he cant release the ball before 3 seconds, then thats what they will do.


Footwork is part of the timing. The article mentioned it, from snap to throw. With bad footwork you are slower.

I understand that. Tebow is bad at that to, its a whole nuther issue. THESTE are all the reasons some of us didnt like Tebow in the first place.

[NightTerror218]

Those QBs are not facing 8 man fronts are they? So, the AVERAGE sack time is a completely MEANINGLESS stat!

What a worthless argument! Tebow is holding the ball too long because he's facing an 8 man front. To beat that you have to throw in about 1.5 seconds or even less.

And the coaching staff HAD those plays designed. They weren't caught by surprise by the defensive tactic and had the right answer: a quick pass to break the 1 on 1 coverage downfield.

Hit a couple of passes like that and the defense will be forced to back off and drop a S in coverage.

But, he never hit those passes to the wide open WR, did he? And so defenses continue to pressure him.

The Tebowners refuse to recognize reality: The team doesn't need bubble-screens or other stuff. Just have Tebow hit a couple passes instead of throwing 10 yards over the head of his WR and the defense will be forced to play honest and he won't be sacked so much.

those plays were not called. The WR were on deep routes most of the time. There were no screens or quick crossing routes. As many throws that did sail over heads, that many were also dropped or not inbounds. This team all around is a problem not just the QB. Franklin was owned like a chick at prom and TT was not accurate. KNownson sucks. Defense gave up easy TDs.

[Nick]

.5 seconds is eternity in NFL. Every negative thing for a QB results in tenths of seconds. They add up pretty quick.

It is obvious that he has multiple negatives with his throwing and footwork BUT what gets me nervous is that he needs all this time and he is not even accurate nor goes through progression.

He did not go through progressions at Florida nor has he to this point.

Accuracy, ball speed, anticipation, leading receivers etc. are also based on tenths of seconds. Wide receivers that are two steps ahead is considered open and that gap can close just as quick.

Overall he is holding the ball for an avg of around 3.6 seconds... He better have scanned the field 2 x and got a hot dog in that time frame.... problem he is still looking at the #1 target. He comes from a school where if #1 is not open run, If you load up box to stop the run if #1 is not open and cant run... That is what you are getting. Only time I seen him look at #2 receiver is in 4th qtrs a few times.

[claymore]

Those QBs are not facing 8 man fronts are they? So, the AVERAGE sack time is a completely MEANINGLESS stat!

What a worthless argument! Tebow is holding the ball too long because he's facing an 8 man front. To beat that you have to throw in about 1.5 seconds or even less.

And the coaching staff HAD those plays designed. They weren't caught by surprise by the defensive tactic and had the right answer: a quick pass to break the 1 on 1 coverage downfield.

Hit a couple of passes like that and the defense will be forced to back off and drop a S in coverage.

But, he never hit those passes to the wide open WR, did he? And so defenses continue to pressure him.

The Tebowners refuse to recognize reality: The team doesn't need bubble-screens or other stuff. Just have Tebow hit a couple passes instead of throwing 10 yards over the head of his WR and the defense will be forced to play honest and he won't be sacked so much.

If you bring 8 dudes and can get there in 2.5 seconds, but Aaron Rodgers can release it in 1.5 than you dont bring 8 dudes.

If you bring 8 dudes and can get there in 2.5 seconds, and Tebow can release it in 2.9 seconds, than you bring 8 dudes every time.

Its a great stat.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Its true, I watched a whole show on it. I dont remember if it was at the combine, talking heads or whatever.

They (talking heads) showed how a DE that ran like a 4.5 40 could cover 20 feet in that one second. And that Tebows release would equate to more sacks...

I wondered if that might be coming from the combine. He doesn't have the pitcher's windup anymore. He use to hold the ball down too low. It resulted in a long looping motion where he would bring the ball down to his waste before bring it up for the release. It was much like a pitcher's wind up.

Tebow doesn't do that anymore. He holds the ball up by his chest and brings the ball up over his shoulder to throw. His throwing motion is fine now. What he is still struggling with is footwork and decision making.

You may still notice a bit of a windup when he's throwing on the run, but that' s normal. Anyone who claims you don't need to do that when throwing on the run has probably never tried it. :laugh: The important thing when throwing on the run is to get your shoulders squared to the LOS.

[rcsodak]

You know i keep hearing about Walton's performance and he held suh to one tackle and zero sacks. Im not saying suh didn't demand doubles but Walton played well in that game.
McCoy said Suh was Kuper's responsibility.

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[rcsodak]

Harris is available. However, no way this FO gets him...they don't want to win with Tim. They want to show/say that he was the reason we lost to setup for the next QB from 2012 draft.

Hahahahahahahaha.....

Hurry! Grab some tinfoil!

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[NameUsedBefore]

He's facing eight-man fronts except for the statistical data that shows he isn't. All this talk of release is pointless when you do not take into account what kind of drop is being done. Kurt Warner had a very quick release, so why was he sacked so much in St. Louis? Because Martz likes his QBs to do seven-drops, which is a long-developing style that makes it difficult to pass-block and takes longer for receivers to get into their routes.

McCoy runs a similar scheme. It is a concept that was utilized in Carolina for years. Remember how Carolina got into the Superbowl? Tough defense and big-play offense set up by a tough running game. Problem is, Denver no longer has a good receiver for running down the field and catching the ball. Lloyd was our Steve Smith or Torry Holt or (lately) Johnny Knox (groan), and now he's gone. And for the Detroit game Denver didn't have a runner to threaten with. Anybody else roll their eyes when 2nd/3rd downs consisted of play-action over and over as if Detroit was ever going to buy that shit? The coaches went into that game quite clearly not taking into account the personnel they had nor the personnel Detroit had.

[rcsodak]

look at the coverage on the pix theres at least 5 defenders blanketing our two wrs....kinda disproves that these defenses are always playing 8 in the box against tebow does it
Detroit (and oak) can get to the qb with their front four. Hmmmm.....wonder how MDareus is doing these days......

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[Cugel]

If you bring 8 dudes and can get there in 2.5 seconds, but Aaron Rodgers can release it in 1.5 than you dont bring 8 dudes.

If you bring 8 dudes and can get there in 2.5 seconds, and Tebow can release it in 2.9 seconds, than you bring 8 dudes every time.

Its a great stat.

You're making EXACTLY my point. If you are playing Aaron Rogers would you ever CONSIDER blitzing with 8 men? Never in Hell! Why not?

Because #1 he's going to recognize it and call an audible to a quick opening slant route or something. #2 Because 6 to 8 defenders rushing means 1 on 1 coverage and some WR is going to be open somewhere. If he hits that pass, then it's a big play.

And Aaron Rogers is going to make that play about 80% or more of the time. So, your chances of success are less than 20% and that's not a good bet.

With Tebow its closer to 100% so they blitz him.

[NightTerror218]

You're making EXACTLY my point. If you are playing Aaron Rogers would you ever CONSIDER blitzing with 8 men? Never in Hell! Why not?

Because #1 he's going to recognize it and call an audible to a quick opening slant route or something. #2 Because 6 to 8 defenders rushing means 1 on 1 coverage and some WR is going to be open somewhere. If he hits that pass, then it's a big play.

And Aaron Rogers is going to make that play about 80% or more of the time. So, your chances of success are less than 20% and that's not a good bet.

With Tebow its closer to 100% so they blitz him.

Might be different if we had Finley, Jones, and Jennings on our team too.

And we dont have those audibles, or Tebow just doesn't call em.

[rcsodak]

They're (coaches, media, fans, etc) are trying to make him into something he's not: a classic pocket passer.
Thats what wins championships.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[rcsodak]

Yes, he had a receiver open, but he was stripped at 2.3 seconds while attempting to throw to one of the TWO open receivers.

You need to look at the coaches film on rewind, because your not grasping the big picture.

The receivers were just making their breaks at about 2.1-2.2 seconds, and he was about to throw to one, and the defender simply blew by Franklin.

I'll await your breakdown of the 7 sacks, and exactly which ones had which receivers open that he could have hit and avoided the sack.
Arent most nfl qb's able to anticipate the break and let the ball go beforehand? Just a question.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Cugel]

He's facing eight-man fronts except for the statistical data that shows he isn't.

Here's a nice quote for you: :ranger:



"We knew if we got any kind of pressure on him that he couldn't do anything. . . . We were like 'Seriously? That's your QB?'" -- Detroit Lions defenders.

[claymore]

You're making EXACTLY my point. If you are playing Aaron Rogers would you ever CONSIDER blitzing with 8 men? Never in Hell! Why not?

Because #1 he's going to recognize it and call an audible to a quick opening slant route or something. #2 Because 6 to 8 defenders rushing means 1 on 1 coverage and some WR is going to be open somewhere. If he hits that pass, then it's a big play.

And Aaron Rogers is going to make that play about 80% or more of the time. So, your chances of success are less than 20% and that's not a good bet.

With Tebow its closer to 100% so they blitz him.

I agree with this 100%. :laugh:

[Cugel]

Originally Posted by Tned View Post
Yes, he had a receiver open, but he was stripped at 2.3 seconds while attempting to throw to one of the TWO open receivers.

You need to look at the coaches film on rewind, because your not grasping the big picture.

The receivers were just making their breaks at about 2.1-2.2 seconds, and he was about to throw to one, and the defender simply blew by Franklin.

I'll await your breakdown of the 7 sacks, and exactly which ones had which receivers open that he could have hit and avoided the sack.

After Tebow is benched following the Raiders game or perhaps after the Chiefs or Jets, are you going to go on the rest of the season insisting that your analysis "proved" that Fox & the coaches and the OL and everything BUT Tim Tebow was responsible for his failure?

Will you keep insisting next season when Tebow is sitting on the bench for some other team that he has a future in the NFL? How about when he becomes an afterthought like Brady Quinn currently is on the Broncos, or in a couple of years when he no longer has a job in the NFL and goes out to circumcise some more Filipino boys? :ranger:

[NightTerror218]

After Tebow is benched following the Raiders game or perhaps after the Chiefs or Jets, are you going to go on the rest of the season insisting that your analysis "proved" that Fox & the coaches and the OL and everything BUT Tim Tebow was responsible for his failure?

Will you keep insisting next season when Tebow is sitting on the bench for some other team that he has a future in the NFL? How about when he becomes an afterthought like Brady Quinn currently is on the Broncos? :ranger:

Are you always at one extreme or the other? Nobody can be in middle ground? Just because one thinks that there is more of a problem then Tebow, how come we went 1-4 before he was in game? How come we had had a few bad years. Come on, this team is bad w/o Tebow. Defense maybe improved but our team is young and inexperienced. Tebow is playing bad but so is the entire offense. OL has been bad. WR are not running great routes. RB suck. Defense has many holes still. Why put 100% on Tebow? Orton got so much blame because he screwed up and lost us games with turnovers. He sucked and we knew what we had. Tebow is sucking but it is only his 2nd game this season and 5th ever.

[Nick]

webber might be able to get rid of it quick :coffee:

[claymore]

webber might be able to get rid of it quick :coffee:

Weber in all honesty be a better option than Tebow. I myself want Tebow to play the rest of the season.

[NorCalBronco7]

Are you always at one extreme or the other? Nobody can be in middle ground? Just because one thinks that there is more of a problem then Tebow, how come we went 1-4 before he was in game? How come we had had a few bad years. Come on, this team is bad w/o Tebow. Defense maybe improved but our team is young and inexperienced. Tebow is playing bad but so is the entire offense. OL has been bad. WR are not running great routes. RB suck. Defense has many holes still. Why put 100% on Tebow? Orton got so much blame because he screwed up and lost us games with turnovers. He sucked and we knew what we had. Tebow is sucking but it is only his 2nd game this season and 5th ever.

125 rushing yards a game. That pretty damn good. The rest of the team sucks though.

[NightTerror218]

125 rushing yards a game. That pretty damn good. The rest of the team sucks though.

That includes our QB who right now averages 61 a game? Moreno still sucks. Mcgahee has been good, but he is injured.

[NorCalBronco7]

That includes our QB who right now averages 61 a game? Moreno still sucks. Mcgahee has been good, but he is injured.

You get lost with numbers easy. :lol:

Willis had several hundred yard games before Tebow was starting. Everyone else is fair game, including the gunner......, but dont overlook the strength of this team.

[arapaho2]

Arent most nfl qb's able to anticipate the break and let the ball go beforehand? Just a question.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

yes they can...however doesnt that take a bit of expirience working with them?

im pretty sure a qb that has his timing down pat with a wr can throw before the break knowing exactly where his wr will be

however qbs with three weeks of practise as the starter and having lost the #1 wr before his first start then playing a completly new wr in his first game back...might not have that ability

[broncohead]

Did anyone see the show where they were showing how fast Brees get rid of the ball? Less then 2.5 seconds on many throws. Not comparing the 2box but it can be done. Just because a WR isn't open does not mean the QB cannot let the WR try and make a play. If its 8 in the box throw with 1 on 1 throw it up.

[Lancane]

webber might be able to get rid of it quick :coffee:

At least we know that Barkley, Jones, Griffin and Foles could! ;)

[Lancane]

Weber in all honesty be a better option than Tebow. I myself want Tebow to play the rest of the season.

It would suck for Tebow if Weber came in and could do all that he can not, maybe that would shut up the Tebowites...but I doubt it!

[BCJ]

Defensive ends are coming at Tebow and getting major sacks. 7 of the 13 sacks were DE and one was DT. Every other one was either a linebacker or safety. The other teams have found a way to kill Tebow. As a team, the Broncos will need to change the playbook based on Tebow's strengths. Obviously, he is having trouble becoming the standard QB. Franklin has been a mess but if you are seeing that you are going to be sacked, I don't want my QB to turn into the second coming of Rob Johnson. No defense is going to change until Tebow forces them to do so.

[Slick]

stick those coffee smileys up your asses.

[Jsteve01]

tyvm slick

[dogfish]

slick, you gonna be able to make it up on the 11th?

[BroncoJoe]

slick, you gonna be able to make it up on the 11th?

:pray:

[Cugel]

Come on, this team is bad w/o Tebow. Defense maybe improved but our team is young and inexperienced. Tebow is playing bad but so is the entire offense. OL has been bad. WR are not running great routes. RB suck. Defense has many holes still. Why put 100% on Tebow?

You're preaching to the wrong choir! :laugh:

I look at this team and ask "how many players on the current roster can realistically be starters in 4 years time if the team went to a SB?"

And the answer is about 6. They are going to have to replace almost the entire team to have a hope of a championship. Aside from maybe Champ, Miller, Clady, maybe Decker and Kuper there aren't many guys on the roster who will have starting jobs for this team 4 years from now. Some might be backups but not starters (Ex: Woodyard & Mays).

I was going to write a thread about EXACTLY how we got here to a probable 3-13 or 4-12 team for the second year in a row.

Short version:

The draft since 2007 has had VERY FEW good players and a lot of busts. Not just total busts like Jarvis Moss & Tim Crowder, Alphonso Smith, Richard Quinn, Tebow and Darcel McBath, but a lot of marginal players like Eddie Royal, Knowshon Moreno, Robert Ayers, and Demaryius Thomas who aren't living up to their 1st or 2nd round draft status.

Add ONE good 1st or 2nd round pick in 4 years -- Ryan Clady and you have a team almost totally devoid of talent.

But it all starts with the QB position.

As the Bears owner said before they traded Kyle Orton and brought in Cutler: "We've got to get the QB position right. If that's not right then nothing's right." :ranger:

[NightTerror218]

You're preaching to the wrong choir! :laugh:

I look at this team and ask "how many players on the current roster can realistically be starters in 4 years time if the team went to a SB?"

And the answer is about 6. They are going to have to replace almost the entire team to have a hope of a championship.

I was going to write a thread about EXACTLY how we got here to a probable 3-13 or 4-12 team for the second year in a row.

Short version:

The draft since 2007 has had VERY FEW good players and a lot of busts. Not just total busts like Moss & Crowder, Alphonso Smith and Darcel McBath, but a lot of marginal players like Knowshon Moreno, Robert Ayers and Tebow who aren't living up to their 1st round draft status.

Add ONE good 1st or 2nd round pick in 4 years -- Ryan Clady and you have a team almost totally devoid of talent.

But it all starts with the QB position.

As the Bears owner said before they traded Kyle Orton and brought in Cutler: "We've got to get the QB position right. If that's not right then nothing's right." :ranger:

You said it, 6 players. But TT is your scape goat.

[Slick]

slick, you gonna be able to make it up on the 11th?


:pray:

It isn't looking good. Low season kicked our asses and the high seasons haven't been high since the swine flu stuff.

I'm still trying to see if I can work it out without using credit cards. I hate using credit, and I also don't want to have to pay Beef with sexual favors.

[dogfish]

It isn't looking good. Low season kicked our asses and the high seasons haven't been high since the swine flu stuff.

I'm still trying to see if I can work it out without using credit cards. I hate using credit, and I also don't want to have to pay Beef with sexual favors.

that sucks. . . i'll hold out hope for ya. . .



even though i know you're lying about beef. . . :heh:

[Tned]

Not really Tned. Last year his completion % was 50. This year it is 46%. So where is this accuracy that you speak of?

Link for stats: http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/13200/tim-tebow


The stats don't lie Tned. He wasn't accurate last year, and he is even worse this year. No one with a 50% completion percentage, or lower, has ever been called 'accurate' in the NFL. No one.

You can nitpick fine details all you want, like wasting money to watch him miss throws last season, but it doesn't change the point that he was not statistically accurate last year and he is even worse this season. Regression is the name of the game for this player...

I'm assuming this reading gig is new to you, so I'm going to try and cut you some slack.

First, I am not wasting money to watch him throw misses last year, I subscribed to Game Rewind for this year, and it included last year's games. I do that because I like looking at what actually happened, and reviewing it, rather than talking out my ass like some people.

Second, further to this new "reading" thing you're trying out, I never said he was 'accurate' last year. What I said was that he regressed from last year to this year and that he was more accurate last year. Unless you've recently reviewed the 80 odd passes that he threw the final three games of last year, then so be it, but at least make an effort to actually read posts before spewing garbage.


So can you Tned explain to me why the Oline got WORSE when Tebow took over? While Orton got sacked at times and had his own issues it was never this bad so why now are you claiming that the Oline as a whole has regressed? It wasnt like the defenses before were not blitzing or stacking the line to stop the run.

I've addressed this multiple times. They are seeing pass rushes and blitzes that they didn't see with Orton. Fox said that the delayed safety blitzes in Miami was something that wasn't seen on film and is hard for even a vet to pick up. He said that the film of Detroit this year didn't show the kind of blitzing and pass rushing they did against the Broncos.

I have further said that this is happening because Tebow isn't hitting enough passes to make them pay for blitzing him or fear him as a passer.

So, while there may be some play calling component, I have been consistent in saying that Tebow HAS to complete the passes he's asked to throw.

North, some of you guys need to have it all or nothing. Fact is, the O-line is getting badly beat on the rushes, but it also falls on Tebow, and to some extent the play calling, that they O-line is facing so many blitzes.

[Tned]

As to the posts claiming that good QBs get the ball out in 1.5 seconds and don't take sacks and stuff like that. Well, I don't have stats to completely discount that (beyond the article I posted a link to that showed average times of sacks for some QBs in 2009), but I think people are dreaming with this 1.5 second and similar statements, except when they are throwing one step screens and stuff like that.

Anyway, what I did do was take a quick look at this Sunday's Pitt/NE game as a quick comparison of the sacks that the Broncos/Tebow had, compared to sacks on Ben and Brady.


Ben sack 1 - 3.9 seconds
Ben sack 2 - 6.5 seconds (flushed at 4.0 seconds)
Ben sack 3 - 3.9 seconds (fumble)
Ben sack 4 - 3.2 seconds
Ben sack 5 - 2.4 seconds (rusher COMPLETELY unblocked)

Brady sack 1 - 4.0 seconds
Brady sack 2 - 4.5 seconds (fumble)

As a reminder, here were the sacks on Tebow against Detroit:

1st half
Sack one - Shotgun - (Fumble, recovered by Tebow) -- 2.3 seconds
Sack two - shotgun -- 2.7 seconds
Sack three - shotgun -- 2.9 seconds

2nd half
Sack four - shotgun - (fumble/TD return) -- 2.3 seconds
Sack five -- under center - 3.5 seconds
Sack six -- under center - 7.8 seconds - (coverage sack) At three second mark, two WR's covered by six defenders (see pic below) -- shotgun - During the next 4.8 seconds, Tebow moves in pocket, but against six defenders, WR's never get open.
Sack seven -- 2.4 seconds

I know I'm a layman, but that sure looks to me like Tebow's not getting a whole lot of time from his line compared to Brady and Big Ben in this case.

I'll look at some other games tomorrow for further comparison.

[Northman]

Thats because Brady and Ben can make the actual passes. Defense cant pin their ears back when they will get burned.

[Northman]

I will also add that NE's Oline is ranked 9th, Pittsburgh's is ranked 29th.

[Tned]

As to the posts claiming that good QBs get the ball out in 1.5 seconds and don't take sacks and stuff like that. Well, I don't have stats to completely discount that (beyond the article I posted a link to that showed average times of sacks for some QBs in 2009), but I think people are dreaming with this 1.5 second and similar statements, except when they are throwing one step screens and stuff like that.

Anyway, what I did do was take a quick look at this Sunday's Pitt/NE game as a quick comparison of the sacks that the Broncos/Tebow had, compared to sacks on Ben and Brady.


Ben sack 1 - 3.9 seconds
Ben sack 2 - 6.5 seconds (flushed at 4.0 seconds)
Ben sack 3 - 3.9 seconds (fumble)
Ben sack 4 - 3.2 seconds
Ben sack 5 - 2.4 seconds (rusher COMPLETELY unblocked)

Brady sack 1 - 4.0 seconds
Brady sack 2 - 4.5 seconds (fumble)

As a reminder, here were the sacks on Tebow against Detroit:

1st half
Sack one - Shotgun - (Fumble, recovered by Tebow) -- 2.3 seconds
Sack two - shotgun -- 2.7 seconds
Sack three - shotgun -- 2.9 seconds

2nd half
Sack four - shotgun - (fumble/TD return) -- 2.3 seconds
Sack five -- under center - 3.5 seconds
Sack six -- under center - 7.8 seconds - (coverage sack) At three second mark, two WR's covered by six defenders (see pic below) -- shotgun - During the next 4.8 seconds, Tebow moves in pocket, but against six defenders, WR's never get open.
Sack seven -- 2.4 seconds

I know I'm a layman, but that sure looks to me like Tebow's not getting a whole lot of time from his line compared to Brady and Big Ben in this case.

I'll look at some other games tomorrow for further comparison.

Last one for tonight, but I looked at the Dal/PHI game. Here are the sacks from that game.

Vick Sack 1 - 4.8 seconds (shotgun - flushed at 3.0 seconds)
Vick Sack 2 - 3.2 seconds
Vick sack 3 - 2.9 seconds
Vick sack 4 - 3.6 seconds (bootleg)

Romo Sack 1 - 2.7 seconds
Romo Sack 2 - 3.3 seconds (shotgun)
Romo Sack 3 - 2.5 seconds (shotgun)
Romo Sack 4 - 3.2 seconds (shotgun -- stepped up in pocket at 2.5 seconds)

[Tned]

Thats because Brady and Ben can make the actual passes. Defense cant pin their ears back when they will get burned.

Hey, I've said that all along. Look at the title of the thread, this is about debunking the misinformation that the sacks are because Tebow is holding the ball too long.

Being sacked in 2.3-2.9 seconds is NOT a long time.

[Tned]

Here's data on all 2010 sacks over and under 3 seconds:


I chose three seconds as the demarcation line because it's a pretty fair cutoff point for where a sack can no longer be blamed on a quarterback's blockers. The median sack time in the NFL last year was 2.7 seconds, just as it was in 2009. Obviously a line should be able to hold a three-man rush back longer than a eight-man all-out blitz, but for practical purposes, three seconds is the point where a quarterback should generally know that he has to get rid of the ball.

The leaderboard of the over-time sacks is filled with names you may expect. Flacco and Roethlisberger lead the way, but Chicago's Jay Cutler isn't far behind. Michael Vick's legs get him out of trouble a lot, but they also mean that he will also rack up some sacks.

Read full article and see chart of sack times: http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/23/when-it-comes-to-holding-the-ball-joe-flacco-tops-ben-roethlisb/

There is a chart at that link that lists every QB, and how many sacks each QB had that were under 3 seconds and how many over.

As you see above, the median is 2.7 seconds. Tebow's median on his six sacks was 2.55 (not including the 7.8 second sack, because it was the end of the day and throwing away wasn't an option).

[Watchthemiddle]

Here's data on all 2010 sacks over and under 3 seconds:




There is a chart at that link that lists every QB, and how many sacks each QB had that were under 3 seconds and how many over.

As you see above, the median is 2.7 seconds. Tebow's median on his six sacks was 2.55 (not including the 7.8 second sack, because it was the end of the day and throwing away wasn't an option).



Kyle Orton...#6 on the list. Didn't someone ask earlier in the thread the question about why all of a sudden the line is giving up more sacks with Tebow than with Orton? :confused:

[Northman]

Hey, I've said that all along. Look at the title of the thread, this is about debunking the misinformation that the sacks are because Tebow is holding the ball too long.

Being sacked in 2.3-2.9 seconds is NOT a long time.

The problem is even if this is the case the fact that Tebow cannot connect on passes to alleviate the pressure from the defensive line still falls on Tebow. You have to be able to make the passes in order to get them to back off.

[Northman]

Kyle Orton...#6 on the list. Didn't someone ask earlier in the thread the question about why all of a sudden the line is giving up more sacks with Tebow than with Orton? :confused:

That was from 2010.

This year in 5 games Orton was sacked 9 times. In 2 and a half games Tebow has been sacked 13 times.

[Tned]

The problem is even if this is the case the fact that Tebow cannot connect on passes to alleviate the pressure from the defensive line still falls on Tebow. You have to be able to make the passes in order to get them to back off.

Not to sound like a broken record, but for the 5th or so time in the last couple days, I'll repeat that the amount of blitzes they are getting is a result, in large part, of Tebow not making the throws he needs to make.

Now, even if Tebow's inaccuracy is causing teams to blitz so much, will you agree that those claiming that the sacks are because Tebow is holding the ball too long are in fact wrong?

[Northman]

Not to sound like a broken record, but for the 5th or so time in the last couple days, I'll repeat that the amount of blitzes they are getting is a result, in large part, of Tebow not making the throws he needs to make.

Now, even if Tebow's inaccuracy is causing teams to blitz so much, will you agree that those claiming that the sacks are because Tebow is holding the ball too long are in fact wrong?

Sure, but you have been on record as saying that the Oline is the main problem which still isnt the case here. I mean, yes apples and oranges you've managed to debunk the holding onto the ball being false. But, the fact that Tebow isnt connecting on passes and able to keep them from blitzing still falls mainly on his shoulders and not the Oline when prior to that the QB wasnt being sacked nearly as much.

[BroncoStud]

I will say this, and I've been harsh on Tebow, on at least 2 of the sacks there were 2, yes 2 freaking WRs out running routes, and 8 in protection. That's just pathetic. You have to give the kid a chance. You know he has issues with his accuracy, timing, and reads right now, spread them out and give him easy throws.

What McCoy and Fox are doing is about as bad as it can be done.

[Tned]

Sure, but you have been on record as saying that the Oline is the main problem which still isnt the case here. I mean, yes apples and oranges you've managed to debunk the holding onto the ball being false. But, the fact that Tebow isnt connecting on passes and able to keep them from blitzing still falls mainly on his shoulders and not the Oline when prior to that the QB wasnt being sacked nearly as much.

You're clearly confusing me with people that are defending Tebow and saying he isn't playing bad. I haven't done that. I've said repeatedly, including in this thread, including in the post you just responded to, that the reason that Detroit and Miami rushed the passer and blitzed more than they have any game this season, and in ways that the Broncos had no film to prepare for, was because Tebow isn't hitting wide receivers. I'm not sure how many different ways I can say that until it sinks in.

However, you will never find me falling into a 'hater' group,. where if a player does one thing (or multiple) wrong, that then EVERYTHING is their fault.

Take Franklin, he has struggled in pass protection since training camp. The reports coming out of camp were that he was a road grader in the run game, but was really struggling in the passing game. That's still happening. It doesn't mean "he sucks" and that every sack and every problem is his fault, but the fact remains is that he continues to struggle at times in pass protection.

Several of the sacks that Franklin has given up (at least three that I can think of off the top of my head) have been when he only had one man to block. Nothing exotic. No weird stunts. Not him sliding to block one guy, and leaving another guy open. Simply him being badly beat on some pass plays.

If you want to try and blame sacks like that on Tebow, then it simply means that you're so entrenched on one side of the debate that you can't dialogue honestly. I understand it, because with 25 losses in the last 33 games, 3 of them coming with Tebow, it's been a frustrating time for fans. It's hard to step back and say, "ok, what's happening. What are we doing good, what are we doing bad." Instead, it's much easier to simply write the kid off, say it's six months until the draft, that's where the answer will come from.

That said, don't hold it against me and keep insinuating I'm defending Tebow and blaming others for his mistakes, just because I'm not in "pile on" mode like some of you.

Tebow has made plenty of mistakes to be critical of, so I don't see the need to fabricate failures for things that he's not doing wrong or where other players are failing to perform. There is a lot of "failure to execute" that could be spread around.

Remember, this is a team that's had 25 losses in the last 33 games, not 25 wins in that time frame. It's not like Tebow has just brought a winning team to it's knees. Instead, he's a young, inexperienced QB on a very bad team.


I will say this, and I've been harsh on Tebow, on at least 2 of the sacks there were 2, yes 2 freaking WRs out running routes, and 8 in protection. That's just pathetic. You have to give the kid a chance. You know he has issues with his accuracy, timing, and reads right now, spread them out and give him easy throws.

What McCoy and Fox are doing is about as bad as it can be done.

And, I just read this morning that in order to give Tebow "more time," they plan to run more max protect in Oakland.

I really don't think this offensive coaching staff gets it. They are looking very "one trick pony" to me. Hope that changes.

[Tned]

Arent most nfl qb's able to anticipate the break and let the ball go beforehand? Just a question.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

I'm pretty sure you know that there is no yes or no answer to this question.

On 'some' timing routes, the QB throws the ball before the WR makes the break. However, that doesn't happen on every route, and to be effective requires the QB and WRs to really be on the same page. How many times after an INT or ball that misses badly do you see a QB and WR talking to each other and the QB making a gesture with his hand indicating how he expected the WR to break?

So, we don't know if on that play it was intended to be a timing route where Tebow through before the break. Personally, I doubt it. I don't tend to see that type of throw made across the middle when a WR is running up field and then breaks in on a square in type route. There are simply too many defenders in the center of the field for QBs to 'anticipate' breaks in that area. It appears to be far more common on deep passes, sideline patterns, comebacks, etc.

So, I guess the answer to your question is yes, sometimes, but more than likely not in the situation you asked it about.

[jlarsiii]

I'm assuming this reading gig is new to you, so I'm going to try and cut you some slack.
First, I am not wasting money to watch him throw misses last year, I subscribed to Game Rewind for this year, and it included last year's games. I do that because I like looking at what actually happened, and reviewing it, rather than talking out my ass like some people.
Second, further to this new "reading" thing you're trying out, I never said he was 'accurate' last year. What I said was that he regressed from last year to this year and that he was more accurate last year. Unless you've recently reviewed the 80 odd passes that he threw the final three games of last year, then so be it, but at least make an effort to actually read posts before spewing garbage.
I've addressed this multiple times. They are seeing pass rushes and blitzes that they didn't see with Orton. Fox said that the delayed safety blitzes in Miami was something that wasn't seen on film and is hard for even a vet to pick up. He said that the film of Detroit this year didn't show the kind of blitzing and pass rushing they did against the Broncos.
I have further said that this is happening because Tebow isn't hitting enough passes to make them pay for blitzing him or fear him as a passer.
So, while there may be some play calling component, I have been consistent in saying that Tebow HAS to complete the passes he's asked to throw.
North, some of you guys need to have it all or nothing. Fact is, the O-line is getting badly beat on the rushes, but it also falls on Tebow, and to some extent the play calling, that they O-line is facing so many blitzes.

Stop with the petty insults. Try having a discussion instead. My statement is true. Tebow was not accurate last year, and he sure isn't accurate this year.

In one of your first posts you talk about Tebow being 'much more accurate' last season. I put in the stats and added my own comment about his accuracy. I have every right to put out my opinion EVEN IF it does not directly relate to your post that I quoted. I used it as a springboard to make a point. Does that make sense to you, or is your M.O. to throw insults when someone does this?

Edit: if you need proof go look at my first post where I highlighted your quoted post, in orange, stating 'much more accurate'.

[Tned]

Stop with the petty insults. Try having a discussion instead. My statement is true. Tebow was not accurate last year, and he sure isn't accurate this year.

I didn't start with the snide little comments, so look in the mirror.

Back to the reading issue. Once again, I never said Tebow was accurate last season.


In one of your first posts you talk about Tebow being 'much more accurate' last season. I put in the stats and added my own comment about his accuracy. I have every right to put out my opinion EVEN IF it does not directly relate to your post that I quoted. I used it as a springboard to make a point. Does that make sense to you, or is your M.O. to throw insults when someone does this?

Tebow was more accurate last year than this year, which is why I said he has regressed, which you appear to have taken offense to.

Maybe you didn't watch the games. That's pretty common for people to just look at stats, which rarely tell the full story. Even if you did watch them, 9 months is a long time to 'trust' your memory. I know, you would think of spending $20 to watch past Broncos games and nit pick things, but instead just attempt to slam others for researching something rather than talking out their ass.

Anyway, since you seem to say that all that matters is stats, and every incompletion is the same in terms of accuracy, let's play this game.

Hypothetical:

Pass A: Receiver is led on crossing pattern and ball is just a little too far in front of him and goes between his finger tips for incompletion.

Pass B: Pass flies 10 feet over the head of receiver on crossing pattern.

Statistically, those are both incompletions. That's a given. In YOUR opinion, did the QB show the same accuracy on both of those throws?

[Nick]

at least we can all agree with him being inaccurate. This is only QB I have ever seen have 7 seconds with a guy wide open and throw 20 yards off.

This is what it reminds me of

lfvwM5fiitE

I think those sacks are the least of his worries.

[jlarsiii]

I didn't start with the snide little comments, so look in the mirror.

Back to the reading issue. Once again, I never said Tebow was accurate last season.



Tebow was more accurate last year than this year, which is why I said he has regressed, which you appear to have taken offense to.

Maybe you didn't watch the games. That's pretty common for people to just look at stats, which rarely tell the full story. Even if you did watch them, 9 months is a long time to 'trust' your memory. I know, you would think of spending $20 to watch past Broncos games and nit pick things, but instead just attempt to slam others for researching something rather than talking out their ass.

Anyway, since you seem to say that all that matters is stats, and every incompletion is the same in terms of accuracy, let's play this game.

Hypothetical:

Pass A: Receiver is led on crossing pattern and ball is just a little too far in front of him and goes between his finger tips for incompletion.

Pass B: Pass flies 10 feet over the head of receiver on crossing pattern.

Statistically, those are both incompletions. That's a given. In YOUR opinion, did the QB show the same accuracy on both of those throws?

I am tired with all of this. The only thing I took offense to was your comments about reading.

Accuracy is measured by completion percentage. I really don't know how you can state in the first post that I quoted saying he was "much more accurate last year", then look at the completion percentage I posted which is a measure of accuracy, and then post a response stating that is has nothing to do with completion percentage. His completion percentage isn't even different in a statistically significant way. Using a 30 throw sample size he completes 15 (2010) versus 13.8 (2011) passes for a difference of 1.2 completions per 30 attempts. How is that much more accurate?

I agree with you that Tebow has never been accurate. All I posted about was your 'much more accurate' statement, and how I don't agree with you about that.

I hope you are not confusing precision with accuracy.

[sneakers]

They should have aimed for the knees

[Tned]

I am tired with all of this. The only thing I took offense to was your comments about reading.

Accuracy is measured by completion percentage. I really don't know how you can state in the first post that I quoted saying he was "much more accurate last year", then look at the completion percentage I posted which is a measure of accuracy, and then post a response stating that is has nothing to do with completion percentage. His completion percentage isn't even different in a statistically significant way. Using a 30 throw sample size he completes 15 (2010) versus 13.8 (2011) passes for a difference of 1.2 completions per 30 attempts. How is that much more accurate?

I agree with you that Tebow has never been accurate. All I posted about was your 'much more accurate' statement, and how I don't agree with you about that.

I hope you are not confusing precision with accuracy.

Let's try this again.

Hypothetical:

Pass A: Receiver is led on crossing pattern and ball is just a little too far in front of him and goes between his finger tips for incompletion.

Pass B: Pass flies 10 feet over the head of receiver on crossing pattern.

Statistically, those are both incompletions. That's a given. In YOUR opinion, did the QB show the same accuracy on both of those throws?

[chazoe60]

You're clearly confusing me with people that are defending Tebow and saying he isn't playing bad. I haven't done that. I've said repeatedly, including in this thread, including in the post you just responded to, that the reason that Detroit and Miami rushed the passer and blitzed more than they have any game this season, and in ways that the Broncos had no film to prepare for, was because Tebow isn't hitting wide receivers. I'm not sure how many different ways I can say that until it sinks in.

However, you will never find me falling into a 'hater' group,. where if a player does one thing (or multiple) wrong, that then EVERYTHING is their fault.

Take Franklin, he has struggled in pass protection since training camp. The reports coming out of camp were that he was a road grader in the run game, but was really struggling in the passing game. That's still happening. It doesn't mean "he sucks" and that every sack and every problem is his fault, but the fact remains is that he continues to struggle at times in pass protection.

Several of the sacks that Franklin has given up (at least three that I can think of off the top of my head) have been when he only had one man to block. Nothing exotic. No weird stunts. Not him sliding to block one guy, and leaving another guy open. Simply him being badly beat on some pass plays.

If you want to try and blame sacks like that on Tebow, then it simply means that you're so entrenched on one side of the debate that you can't dialogue honestly. I understand it, because with 25 losses in the last 33 games, 3 of them coming with Tebow, it's been a frustrating time for fans. It's hard to step back and say, "ok, what's happening. What are we doing good, what are we doing bad." Instead, it's much easier to simply write the kid off, say it's six months until the draft, that's where the answer will come from.

That said, don't hold it against me and keep insinuating I'm defending Tebow and blaming others for his mistakes, just because I'm not in "pile on" mode like some of you.

Tebow has made plenty of mistakes to be critical of, so I don't see the need to fabricate failures for things that he's not doing wrong or where other players are failing to perform. There is a lot of "failure to execute" that could be spread around.

Remember, this is a team that's had 25 losses in the last 33 games, not 25 wins in that time frame. It's not like Tebow has just brought a winning team to it's knees. Instead, he's a young, inexperienced QB on a very bad team.



And, I just read this morning that in order to give Tebow "more time," they plan to run more max protect in Oakland.

I really don't think this offensive coaching staff gets it. They are looking very "one trick pony" to me. Hope that changes.
Does this mean we'll send one man out on passing plays? :laugh:


Our coaching staff is ridiculous. And, I'm not saying that because of Tebow, these idiots couldn't make good gameplans with Orton either. I think we screwed the pooch (not you nut) with this hire.

[hamrob]

Yes, Franklin has been getting abused. I remember several times where his man had basically a free run at the QB.Franklin is a rookie. Walton, Beadles are 2nd year guys. Decker and Thomas are 2nd year guys. Tebow is a 2nd year guy who has started 5 games.

What are people expecting out of this crew??

To dominate one of the best teams in the NFL?

Give me a break!

[Tned]

Does this mean we'll send one man out on passing plays? :laugh:


Our coaching staff is ridiculous. And, I'm not saying that because of Tebow, these idiots couldn't make good gameplans with Orton either. I think we screwed the pooch (not you nut) with this hire.

I don't know. I'm thinking to give him max time in the pocket, they should run a jumbo package on every play, with three TE's and two RB's, and use them all to block.

[Tned]

Franklin is a rookie. Walton, Beadles are 2nd year guys. Decker and Thomas are 2nd year guys. Tebow is a 2nd year guy who has started 5 games.

What are people expecting out of this crew??

To dominate one of the best teams in the NFL?

Give me a break!

I touched on this in a post earlier in the week. I don't remember all the ages, but from memory of the offensive starters or frequently used guys, Kuper was the 'vet' at 6 years (so is McGahee when in there), then you had a handful of players at 4 years (Royal, Clady, Fells & one other), and after that, they are mostly rookie or second year players, maybe a third year player thrown in.

The offense is VERY young and very inexperienced. A guy like DT hasn't seen the field much due to injuries, as an example.

[Lancane]

Franklin is a rookie. Walton, Beadles are 2nd year guys. Decker and Thomas are 2nd year guys. Tebow is a 2nd year guy who has started 5 games.

What are people expecting out of this crew??

To dominate one of the best teams in the NFL?

Give me a break!

You should never have to coach players in the basics of their given positions, namely teaching a quarterback how to freaking throw the ball. Yeah, they need to be coached up at this level, but Tebow throws with about as much velocity of a 70 year old pitcher, with about as much accuracy as a blind man with slingshot and throws about as tight a spiral as a newborn baby chick.


Quarterback is the most popular position on the football field, full of glory and always in the middle of the action. It comes with a lot of responsibility. The most basic one is to be able to throw the ball. - Ryan Wood Active.com

What did people expect? I dunno...maybe improvement, maybe a sign that they're progressing at their respective positions. Yes, Orlando Franklin is a rookie, and better inside then he is at the tackle position, and you are correct that the offense is rather young. But it doesn't matter if your quarterback isn't good enough to hit the hole on a big rig tire five yards out.

No one expected him to come in and light it up, but that he could maintain drives and score points as well as complete passes on a consistent basis, so far he shown a lack in almost all areas. He doesn't even seem ready to play until the game is out of reach in the fourth quarter, then all of a sudden he's doing better against usually prevent defenses...what good is that?

I don't see anyone changing your mind or opinion on Tebow, you'll come to your own conclusion, whether people agree or not. The same could be said for those of us who's opinions differ from your own.

[Tned]

You should never have to coach players in the basics of their given positions, namely teaching a quarterback how to freaking throw the ball. Yeah, they need to be coached up at this level, but Tebow throws with about as much velocity of a 70 year old pitcher, with about as much accuracy as a blind man with slingshot and throws about as tight a spiral as a newborn baby chick.

See, this is where you show that there is no semblance of objectivity in your posts on this subject.

[Tned]

Here's a few more notes, related to formations and such on those sacks & if receivers were open.

Sack one Fumble -- 2.3 -- Shotgun 3 WR, 1 TE in slot, 1 RB set. Franklin beat, ball stripped as TEbow about to throw to WR on comeback. Rusher beat Franklin one on one, Franklin didn't even slow him down.

Sack two -- 2.7 -- Shotgun 3 WR (to left), 1 RB. Rusher beat Franklin one on one, Franklin didn't even slow him down.

Sack three -- 2.9 Shotgun (3 WR, 1 TE, 1 RB) Quickest route was a 10 yard come back from TE who chipped rusher, then ran a 10 yard comeback. Turned back as Tebow being sacked. The three WR's all made their breaks on the pattern after Tebow was sacked.

2nd half
Sack four fumble/TD return -- 2.3 -- Shotgun 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 RB. Franklin didn't even slow rusher down, Tebow stripped as he was releasing ball to WR on short crossing pattern.

Sack five -- 3.5 -- Under center, 2 WR (right) 2 TE, 1 RB. Shortest route was by TE who chipped blocker, then ran a 12 yard square in. Tebow sacked before he makes his break.

sack six -- 7.8 - Under center. Two WRs, 1 RB. One WR motions into tigh slot, then chips blocker before running route. At three second mark, two WR's covered by six defenders.

sack seven -- 2.4 Shotgun - 3 WR, 1 RB, TE in slot. Beadles completely whiffs on DT, hence 2.4 second sack.

[Lancane]

See, this is where you show that there is no semblance of objectivity in your posts on this subject.

Tned, I was open minded at the end of the season last year, and held an objective stance during the camp when reporters and other commentators reported how awful he was. But I was mistaken and I began to take notice of the issues and flaws as the preseason wore on. Now? Yeah, I'm no longer objective because while the preseason is one thing, noticing the fundamental flaws of someone at the position they were drafted to play and as horrendously as he's been should not be that hard. What? I'm the bad guy because I'm no longer toeing the line, and believe my opinion? That's why it is my opinion, because it is how I believe. 'Truth is in the eye of the beholder.'

[Tned]

Tned, I was open minded at the end of the season last year, and held an objective stance during the camp when reporters and other commentators reported how awful he was. But I was mistaken and I began to take notice of the issues and flaws as the preseason wore on. Now? Yeah, I'm no longer objective because while the preseason is one thing, noticing the fundamental flaws of someone at the position they were drafted to play and as horrendously as he's been should not be that hard. What? I'm the bad guy because I'm no longer toeing the line, and believe my opinion? That's why it is my opinion, because it is how I believe. 'Truth is in the eye of the beholder.'

It's not about believing. I don't "believe" in Tebow. IMO, he's gone from a flip of the coin chance to a long shot chance of being Denver's solution at QB.

The lack of objectivity I refer to with you shows in your completely one sided, highly hyperbolic comments.

[catfish]

yes they can...however doesnt that take a bit of expirience working with them?

im pretty sure a qb that has his timing down pat with a wr can throw before the break knowing exactly where his wr will be

however qbs with three weeks of practise as the starter and having lost the #1 wr before his first start then playing a completly new wr in his first game back...might not have that ability

to follow up on this, judging from these statistics it would appear that Tebow is attempting a higher % of passes over 15 yds than any other QB in the league(signifigantly higher than most). It seems to me that Denver would be trying more short passes with a O-line that is struggling, a QB that is having trouble with a quick release/accuracy and their qb's/recievers still working on timing

http://wp.advancednflstats.com/playerstats.php?pos=QB

[Tned]

to follow up on this, judging from these statistics it would appear that Tebow is attempting a higher % of passes over 15 yds than any other QB in the league(signifigantly higher than most). It seems to me that Denver would be trying more short passes with a O-line that is struggling, a QB that is having trouble with a quick release/accuracy and their qb's/recievers still working on timing

http://wp.advancednflstats.com/playerstats.php?pos=QB

That's interesting. According to that, nearly 32% of Tebow's attempts are greater than 15 yards. The question is whether or not that's an indication of the type of routes that McCoy is calling, or the receiver(s) that Tebow chooses to throw to.

Orton was 18%. So, is McCoy calling deeper, slower developing routes, as many have been saying, or is Tebow choosing to try for the home run and passing over short receivers?

Now, when reviewing the stats, I would say it's the primarily the former, because on those sacks, there was rarely a route less than 10 yards (the shortest route, with others being longer). Now, that is partially also due to the fact that the first two games have been a lot of running on first and second down, leaving 3rd and long and requiring 7-10 yards or longer just to pick up the first.

Anyway, it's an interesting stat. I'm going to have to look at some more of the film with this in mind.

[catfish]

That's interesting. According to that, nearly 32% of Tebow's attempts are greater than 15 yards. The question is whether or not that's an indication of the type of routes that McCoy is calling, or the receiver(s) that Tebow chooses to throw to.

Orton was 18%. So, is McCoy calling deeper, slower developing routes, as many have been saying, or is Tebow choosing to try for the home run and passing over short receivers?

Now, when reviewing the stats, I would say it's the primarily the former, because on those sacks, there was rarely a route less than 10 yards (the shortest route, with others being longer). Now, that is partially also due to the fact that the first two games have been a lot of running on first and second down, leaving 3rd and long and requiring 7-10 yards or longer just to pick up the first.

Anyway, it's an interesting stat. I'm going to have to look at some more of the film with this in mind.

(statistics for % success on 3rd down situations below). If Tebow is facing 3rd and long 7+ he should be converting 30% of the time(roughly) the fact that his isn't is an issue

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d80ae2bf7/article/firstdown-success-is-the-key-to-thirddown-conversions

[Tned]

(statistics for % success on 3rd down situations below). If Tebow is facing 3rd and long 7+ he should be converting 30% of the time(roughly) the fact that his isn't is an issue

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d80ae2bf7/article/firstdown-success-is-the-key-to-thirddown-conversions

The generalized stats don't take into account other factors, like the severity of pass rush, play calling, etc. The way they've thrown the kitchen sink at him and the link hasn't even slowed them down, 30% would be asking a lot.

[MileHiWildcat]

Tned, I was open minded at the end of the season last year, and held an objective stance during the camp when reporters and other commentators reported how awful he was. But I was mistaken and I began to take notice of the issues and flaws as the preseason wore on. Now? Yeah, I'm no longer objective because while the preseason is one thing, noticing the fundamental flaws of someone at the position they were drafted to play and as horrendously as he's been should not be that hard. What? I'm the bad guy because I'm no longer toeing the line, and believe my opinion? That's why it is my opinion, because it is how I believe. 'Truth is in the eye of the beholder.'

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