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Denver Native (Carol)
11-03-2011, 08:43 PM
The latest debate raging around Tim Tebow is whether or not the Denver Broncos are doing all they can to give their raw quarterback every chance to succeed.

Fans and broadcasters alike have disparaged Tebow's pocket of protection and criticized offensive coordinator Mike McCoy's play-calling. But a close look at the film shows the Broncos have tailored their offense to Tebow's unorthodox skill set even though the results haven't been pretty.

In his two starts, an 18-15 overtime victory over the Miami Dolphins and a 45-10 loss to the Detroit Lions, Tebow has been in the shotgun formation an average of 40 times. From there, the Broncos have rushed the ball 17 times on average, half on designed Tebow runs.

rest of article - http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d823c0777/article/broncos-bristle-say-theyre-tailoring-offense-for-tebow?module=HP11_headline_stack

Tned
11-03-2011, 08:56 PM
According to McCoy, they aren't making significant changes to the scheme, which is consistent with what Fox and McCoy have been saying, and what is evident from watching the games. Yes, they have him in shotgun more than Orton, and they run some QB draws or off tackle runs (idiotic, IMO), but beyond that, there is no base scheme change.


On offensive schemes

“We kind of have to do what we do as a team. What do we do best? Systematically how can we adjust a few things? We’re trying to stay in our system as much as possible. There are going to be some different things. You’ve seen some different things we’ve done with Tim, or some variations, but we’re trying to keep it in our system so the guys up front don’t have to change as much. They can block the scheme that’s called, and there might be a little wrinkle on the back side or the front side depending on if Tim is throwing the ball or running it in one direction or another. We’re trying to stay in system as much as possible.”

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
11-03-2011, 09:19 PM
14 points a game ain't workin' either way you slice it. :laugh:

Northman
11-03-2011, 09:27 PM
rest of article - http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d823c0777/article/broncos-bristle-say-theyre-tailoring-offense-for-tebow?module=HP11_headline_stack

I agree. I also like the fact that Fox stated that Tebow needs to get rid of the ball quicker which i think is contributing a LOT to the woes of the Oline right now.

BroncoStud
11-03-2011, 09:37 PM
I was thinking we were going to switch to the Wishbone or Wing-T for a minute there.

Tned
11-03-2011, 09:53 PM
I agree. I also like the fact that Fox stated that Tebow needs to get rid of the ball quicker which i think is contributing a LOT to the woes of the Oline right now.

Yea, that's part of it, but then again there are the times that it's not possible to get the ball out fast enough, like McCoy talking about the problems with Franklin and other players:


"Unfortunately, [Detroit DE Cliff Avril] 92 got us a few too many times, whether it was the sack fumble at the beginning of the second half—but it wasn’t just him, there were three guys on Tim on that certain play. We have to do a better job of protecting him, No. 1, and decisions. I have to help him with certain things also.”

...

“You have to think, I could have helped [T] Orlando [Franklin] a couple of times in the game. I wish I would have. You look back at the second play of the second half, the sack fumble where the exact same play was ran the third play of the game, and there was nobody near Tim Tebow. It’s all part of the game, and we just have to do a better job. If it gets to a certain spot in the game where I have to give certain players help, or slide the protection one way or another, that’s my job. So I have to do a better job at that.”

You would have to be blind to not see that Tebow is a big part of the problem, or simply so much of a Tebow fanatic that you don't want to see it, however the same is true about seeing that it isn't all Tebow and that many of the sacks and pressure situations are missed blocking assignments by RB's, Franklin getting beat, other O-linemen getting beat, WR's not getting open.

After two bad games, it's become "the thing" to blame it all on Tebow, but that doesn't make it accurate.

MOtorboat
11-03-2011, 10:22 PM
I don't understand how the protection could be worse than it was with Orton under center.

BeefStew25
11-03-2011, 10:41 PM
I don't understand how the protection could be worse than it was with Orton under center.

Orton was able to make reads. Tebow can't. It is a Race to the QB.*

*Orton would still just throw it away.

Krugan
11-03-2011, 10:48 PM
I don't understand how the protection could be worse than it was with Orton under center.

As sad as it is, Orton is an 8 year vet. He has seen things Timbob hasnt.

Not directing this at you Mo, but I think people are expecting far to much from someone who was and is, a major project to bring up to NFL caliber QB.

Unrealistic of the fan base to be expecting him to live up to the overblown words of a bunch of college fans following him everywhere.

There is no patience for anything in Denver anymore, and its really quite painful. We sucked for 2 years with Orton, now after 2 games we dont have the time to see if anything devolps with Tebow.

As if we had a better option here...

BroncoStud
11-03-2011, 11:08 PM
Yep, 2 years of Orton really didn't make for happy fans. Tebow is a victim of his own fanaticals. He's going to have to make quicker reads. At some point the game needs to slow down for him. He holds the ball WAY too long, but the playcalling isn't helping matters. John Lynch was basically pointing out the obvious the other day... Even All-Pro QBs in the NFL get high percentage throws to work themselves into games... Even when the Lions were sending all-out blitzes at Tebow we weren't calling screens or quick routes. It was pretty sad offense all around.

It's amazing that a QB can dominate a league like the SEC with such a raw passing dynamic.

dogfish
11-03-2011, 11:54 PM
Not directing this at you Mo, but I think people are expecting far to much from someone who was and is, a major project to bring up to NFL caliber QB.



not to mention, he's been in the league two years, and has had two different QB coaches-- one was a high school coach, and the other is a receivers coach. . . kinda stupid of the FO to roll with a huge project at QB, and not bother to get anyone that's ever developed a pro quarterback before. . . no one should be shocked if it's not working. . .

sneakers
11-03-2011, 11:56 PM
80% quarterback draws from the shotgun formation! Versus 80% bubble screens with Orton.

DenBronx
11-04-2011, 12:23 AM
Our team is going to look fugly no matter what current QB we have plays.

To be frank, I expect more from TT even if this is his 5th start. He needs to play better no matter how poor the protection is. Normal QBs get a free pass at playing poor but not TT. The media has drug him through the mud and the whole nations eyes are on him. If he does as terrible as he did last week it will be hard for him to stick around based on how popular he is. If this was a no name 4th round QB then he wouldnt get so much flack.

Northman
11-04-2011, 01:20 AM
Yea, that's part of it, but then again there are the times that it's not possible to get the ball out fast enough, like McCoy talking about the problems with Franklin and other players:



Although i know there are other issues i think the problems with Franklin are kind of tied in too Tebow holding the ball to long. McCoy said that although they have adapted the system to Tebow the Oline is use to the QB getting rid of the ball quicker and as this article said holding onto the ball for 9 seconds is almost 4 seconds too long which may not seem like a lot but for an Oline thats an eternity.

NameUsedBefore
11-04-2011, 04:48 AM
Denver had a threat at receiver when Orton was the quarterback.

I'm assuming, and this is just conjecture, that both Miami and Detroit had to Google Denver's receivers.

spikerman
11-04-2011, 06:29 AM
Orton also didn't play against this Detroit D-Line. It's one of, if not the, best in the game.

Tned
11-04-2011, 07:18 AM
I don't understand how the protection could be worse than it was with Orton under center.

The protection isn't worse than with Orton, it's that teams are pass rushing/blitzing more with Tebow under center. In part because he's young and in part because he's been inaccurate.


Although i know there are other issues i think the problems with Franklin are kind of tied in too Tebow holding the ball to long. McCoy said that although they have adapted the system to Tebow the Oline is use to the QB getting rid of the ball quicker and as this article said holding onto the ball for 9 seconds is almost 4 seconds too long which may not seem like a lot but for an Oline thats an eternity.

North, the fact that several of the sacks both in Miami and against Detroit were from a rusher just completely blowing by Franklin, I think it's a real reach to blame Franklin's problems on Tebow holding the ball too long. The fact is, it goes beyond sacks. A number of the scrambles in both games were from Franklin being badly beat. Let's remember that Franklin's pass blocking woes go back to training camp reports and preseason. That was a given with him -- good run blocker, struggling in pass protection.

He's simply being exposed more with Tebow because teams are blitzing and pass rushing so much more.

ydave77
11-04-2011, 10:07 AM
not to mention, he's been in the league two years, and has had two different QB coaches-- one was a high school coach, and the other is a receivers coach. . . kinda stupid of the FO to roll with a huge project at QB, and not bother to get anyone that's ever developed a pro quarterback before. . . no one should be shocked if it's not working. . .

Can someone, ANYONE, please explain the reasoning behind this. I don't understand how you dont get a guy that has a track record of developing QBs. When you have someone as raw as Tebow is, who you have made a major investment in (draft pick and financially), why ont try to get him the best coaching you can.

Even in the preseason, if you decided Gase was the QB coach, why not hire Tebow another QB coach, who would specialize in trying to develop him, and have time to really work with him, on reading defenses, mechanics, footwork, etc.

Do anything to maximize your investment...

It looks like a lost cause at this point though. I don't quite understand why Tebow has regressed. His last 3 games last yr, he looked competent.

Whats changed, is it just the scheme, play-calling, or has he actually regressed? Has the pressure gotten to him, the no-confidence vote?

Regardless, I hope he comes out firing against Oakland.
If he throws 3 picks this week, but looks more decisive, I will be happier with that, than the deer in the headlights act I have seen the last 2 weeks.

ydave77
11-04-2011, 10:19 AM
“The goofy thing is, it’s almost like if he doesn’t have success it will be anybody’s fault but his. It’s almost that kind of polarizing thing,” Fox told Sam Farmer of the Los Angeles Times. “They’ll say it could be his supporting cast, or the type of plays.

“At the end of the day, we are what we are. We’re doing everything we can to win, and we’re finding out about a young quarterback, good, bad or indifferent.”

--John Fox
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/04/john-fox-sounds-exasperated-with-criticism/

Wow...that is ugly. Dont get me wrong Tebow has looked bad...really bad. But man it sounds like his coach can care less.
For a guy that isn't a problem child, or malcontent, you almost never hear a coach throwing a guy under the bus like that.

There is plenty of blame to go around, enough for some to land on Tebow, some on McCoy, and you too Foxy...

Ravage!!!
11-04-2011, 10:42 AM
The Broncos couldn't hire a coach in the offseason to work with Tebow, it was against the rules. Tebow needed to hire a coach on his own.... like many other do in the offseasons. Its not uncommon, and was certainly available for him to get... IF he wanted too.

But Fox is NOT "throwing him under the bus." But when you hear the constant questions from the media asking "why didn't you do this".. "why didn't you do that".. and they are all centered around "helping" Tebow because he's failing....... those questions are accusatory. Anyone would simply say, "hey, just because he's failing doesn't make it ALL my fault. He's a big boy and can accept some responsibility on his own." Thats all Fox is saying. People want to coddle Tebow. Seems so many are willing to blame Every other QBs mistakes on their own merit (ask Romo), but if Tebow plays badly, it HAS to be something other than HIM (although that perception and reality is dwindling faster by the minute).

Tned
11-04-2011, 10:45 AM
The Broncos couldn't hire a coach in the offseason to work with Tebow, it was against the rules. Tebow needed to hire a coach on his own.... like many other do in the offseasons. Its not uncommon, and was certainly available for him to get... IF he wanted too.

But Fox is NOT "throwing him under the bus." But when you hear the constant questions from the media asking "why didn't you do this".. "why didn't you do that".. and they are all centered around "helping" Tebow because he's failing....... those questions are accusatory. Anyone would simply say, "hey, just because he's failing doesn't make it ALL my fault. He's a big boy and can accept some responsibility on his own." Thats all Fox is saying. People want to coddle Tebow. Seems so many are willing to blame Every other QBs mistakes on their own merit (ask Romo), but if Tebow plays badly, it HAS to be something other than HIM (although that perception and reality is dwindling faster by the minute).

Doesn't change the fact that as a 35 year veteran of this league, or whatever he is, he should no better than to say something like that.

Ravage!!!
11-04-2011, 10:48 AM
Doesn't change the fact that as a 35 year veteran of this league, or whatever he is, he should no better than to say something like that.

Why? Because its the truth? We've seen coaches imply that the QB was making some major mistakes in the NFL before. THis isn't unique or different, other than the fact its against Tebow. There is nothing wrong with what he said.

Tned
11-04-2011, 10:50 AM
Why? Because its the truth? We've seen coaches imply that the QB was making some major mistakes in the NFL before. THis isn't unique or different, other than the fact its against Tebow. There is nothing wrong with what he said.

It has nothing to do with it being Tebow. It's just not the kind of fuel that smart coaches usually add to the fire. It's what you expect from someone like McDaniels -- a young, inexperienced coach.

weazel
11-04-2011, 10:54 AM
it doesnt matter what they do... you can dress up shit anyway you want, but its still shit.

Mike
11-04-2011, 11:08 AM
“The goofy thing is, it’s almost like if he doesn’t have success it will be anybody’s fault but his. It’s almost that kind of polarizing thing,” Fox told Sam Farmer of the Los Angeles Times. “They’ll say it could be his supporting cast, or the type of plays.

“At the end of the day, we are what we are. We’re doing everything we can to win, and we’re finding out about a young quarterback, good, bad or indifferent.”

--John Fox
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/04/john-fox-sounds-exasperated-with-criticism/

Wow...that is ugly. Dont get me wrong Tebow has looked bad...really bad. But man it sounds like his coach can care less.
For a guy that isn't a problem child, or malcontent, you almost never hear a coach throwing a guy under the bus like that.

There is plenty of blame to go around, enough for some to land on Tebow, some on McCoy, and you too Foxy...

This is bs for the coach to say and is a large part of the reason I am coming to not like Fox.

As far as the thread topic...I am telling you, this is the new Cutler never called Bowlen back.

HORSEPOWER 56
11-04-2011, 11:28 AM
Being predominantly in the shotgun, especially late in games, isn't "tailoring" the offense to the QB. The fact that we have been playing catch up the last 2 games is the reason we've seen more shotgun snaps.

Not shorter routes and rollouts/bootlegs that cut 1/2 the reads down, just lining him up in the shotgun with a kitchen-sink blitz on and only 5 man protection and saying, make your reads and throw the ball 15 yards downfield with pressure on you in 2 secs or less.

I'm not making excuses for Tebow or even trying to bash McCoy too hard, but there are things you can do with a new QB, and frankly things you can't. We're kinda doing the high school thing of just running the plays as called with little to no adjustment to what the defense is doing or what they are giving. It seems as if it's always a called run play on 1st down, no matter what alignment the defense is in, followed by a play action pass that goes past the sticks or another run on 2nd down, followed by a shotgun snap on third and long no matter what the defensive look is. I'm not a smart man, but even I could gameplan for this offense.

It almost seems like they are still in the "evaluating" mode with Tebow and just giving him set plays to run, regardless of the defense they face and down and distance, just to see if they work. There is very little creativity in our play calling and I'd venture to say that most QBs would struggle with our offense right now, even if they had experience.

Running plays that cater to being blitzed over and over isn't going to help the offense at all. A young QB learning to read the defense and a RT and LG who struggle in pass protection aren't helping matters either. Everyone needs to get better or this experiment just won't work.

For the record, Jake Plummer would've been awful in this offense.

weazel
11-04-2011, 11:44 AM
This is bs for the coach to say and is a large part of the reason I am coming to not like Fox.

As far as the thread topic...I am telling you, this is the new Cutler never called Bowlen back.

Fox and company seen a player who is horrible... they said he is not starting because they knew he couldnt. Certain fans cried foul that the golden boy wasnt starting and the real starter shit the bed.
So they bowed to the fans and played a player they knew sucked and tried to change things to help him and it still didnt work. When it didnt work, the nut huggers blamed the rest of the team.

What do you want him to say? he cant do anything because no matter what he does it wont be timmy's fault, it will be his or another scapegoats.

Damn I wish that idiot mcdaniels wouldnt have drafted this useless POS.

When Orton failed it was all Ortons fault, now that timmy is failing, its the coaches and the rest of the team


**** OFF with that ******* bullshit

ydave77
11-04-2011, 11:46 AM
The Broncos couldn't hire a coach in the offseason to work with Tebow, it was against the rules. Tebow needed to hire a coach on his own.... like many other do in the offseasons. Its not uncommon, and was certainly available for him to get... IF he wanted too.

But Fox is NOT "throwing him under the bus." But when you hear the constant questions from the media asking "why didn't you do this".. "why didn't you do that".. and they are all centered around "helping" Tebow because he's failing....... those questions are accusatory. Anyone would simply say, "hey, just because he's failing doesn't make it ALL my fault. He's a big boy and can accept some responsibility on his own." Thats all Fox is saying. People want to coddle Tebow. Seems so many are willing to blame Every other QBs mistakes on their own merit (ask Romo), but if Tebow plays badly, it HAS to be something other than HIM (although that perception and reality is dwindling faster by the minute).


I disagree. The coach is supposed to externally support his players, while internally letting them know their play is substandard. Dont go to the media, with a cry of its not my fault, its his.

HORSEPOWER 56
11-04-2011, 11:50 AM
Fox and company seen a player who is horrible... they said he is not starting because they knew he couldnt. Certain fans cried foul that the golden boy wasnt starting and the real starter shit the bed.
So they bowed to the fans and played a player they knew sucked and tried to change things to help him and it still didnt work. When it didnt work, the nut huggers blamed the rest of the team.

What do you want him to say? he cant do anything because no matter what he does it wont be timmy's fault, it will be his or another scapegoats.

Damn I wish that idiot mcdaniels wouldnt have drafted this useless POS.

When Orton failed it was all Ortons fault, now that timmy is failing, its the coaches and the rest of the team


**** OFF with that ******* bullshit


So, Orton's 1-4 record and leading the league in turnovers from the QB position weren't contributing factors? Do you honestly, really think that if the Broncos had been .500 (Orton can't win all the games himself, just like Tebow) and Orton had been playing good football that he still would've been benched at halftime vs the Chargers? C'mon man. Yes, the fans were calling for Tebow, but Orton sped up the process when he played like shit for 4/5 games...

weazel
11-04-2011, 12:02 PM
So, Orton's 1-4 record and leading the league in turnovers from the QB position weren't contributing factors? Do you honestly, really think that if the Broncos had been .500 (Orton can't win all the games himself, just like Tebow) and Orton had been playing good football that he still would've been benched at halftime vs the Chargers? C'mon man. Yes, the fans were calling for Tebow, but Orton sped up the process when he played like shit for 4/5 games...

re-read my post... you know, that part where I said Orton shit the bed

if you're going to argue, you have to at least read what I wrote. lol

HORSEPOWER 56
11-04-2011, 12:09 PM
re-read my post... you know, that part where I said Orton shit the bed

if you're going to argue, you have to at least read what I wrote. lol

I did read your post, but you implied that the "experiment" is over. Tebow played, he sucked and there is no chance for improvement now. For all the bad things he's done and the poor play he's shown, he's thrown one INT and we are 1-1 with him as the starter. Would you have preferred to stay with Orton and still gotten blown out by Detroit?

The vast majority of Tebow apologists and "nuthuggers" have kinda fallen by the wayside since last week's reality check. Nobody is really making that many excuses for him anymore. Sure, they could call a better offensive game plan, but they could've done that for Orton, too. Tebow has to learn and has to be given the opportunity before we write him off. I understand you're pissed about the current situation, but the same guys chastising Orton for poor play are doing it to Tebow, too. Most just aren't trying to compare a 7 year vet with a guy with 5 starts and expect comparable numbers.

All that matters is wins and losses.

dogfish
11-04-2011, 12:10 PM
North, the fact that several of the sacks both in Miami and against Detroit were from a rusher just completely blowing by Franklin, I think it's a real reach to blame Franklin's problems on Tebow holding the ball too long. The fact is, it goes beyond sacks. A number of the scrambles in both games were from Franklin being badly beat. Let's remember that Franklin's pass blocking woes go back to training camp reports and preseason. That was a given with him -- good run blocker, struggling in pass protection.



franklin completely got his ass handed to him. . . as i read somewhere else, a couple of orange traffic cones could have given a comparable performance. . . that kid can't pass block to save his life. . .




The Broncos couldn't hire a coach in the offseason to work with Tebow, it was against the rules.

somebody needs to let them know the season started two months ago, it's okay to get one now. . . :listen:

NorCalBronco7
11-04-2011, 12:29 PM
I did read your post, but you implied that the "experiment" is over. Tebow played, he sucked and there is no chance for improvement now. For all the bad things he's done and the poor play he's shown, he's thrown one INT and we are 1-1 with him as the starter. Would you have preferred to stay with Orton and still gotten blown out by Detroit?

The vast majority of Tebow apologists and "nuthuggers" have kinda fallen by the wayside since last week's reality check. Nobody is really making that many excuses for him anymore. Sure, they could call a better offensive game plan, but they could've done that for Orton, too. Tebow has to learn and has to be given the opportunity before we write him off. I understand you're pissed about the current situation, but the same guys chastising Orton for poor play are doing it to Tebow, too. Most just aren't trying to compare a 7 year vet with a guy with 5 starts and expect comparable numbers.

All that matters is wins and losses.

Oh CMON MAN, all you said before the season when we were talking about who should be the starting Qb, all you said was how crappy a Qb Orton is and how Tebow couldnt do any worse.

weazel
11-04-2011, 12:58 PM
I did read your post, but you implied that the "experiment" is over. Tebow played, he sucked and there is no chance for improvement now. For all the bad things he's done and the poor play he's shown, he's thrown one INT and we are 1-1 with him as the starter. Would you have preferred to stay with Orton and still gotten blown out by Detroit?

The vast majority of Tebow apologists and "nuthuggers" have kinda fallen by the wayside since last week's reality check. Nobody is really making that many excuses for him anymore. Sure, they could call a better offensive game plan, but they could've done that for Orton, too. Tebow has to learn and has to be given the opportunity before we write him off. I understand you're pissed about the current situation, but the same guys chastising Orton for poor play are doing it to Tebow, too. Most just aren't trying to compare a 7 year vet with a guy with 5 starts and expect comparable numbers.

All that matters is wins and losses.

I never stated the experiment was over... where? I was giving a reason why Fox would finally snap and say what he did. as for the qustion, I dont care whos playing, this team sucks

Npba900
11-04-2011, 01:36 PM
So, Orton's 1-4 record and leading the league in turnovers from the QB position weren't contributing factors? Do you honestly, really think that if the Broncos had been .500 (Orton can't win all the games himself, just like Tebow) and Orton had been playing good football that he still would've been benched at halftime vs the Chargers? C'mon man. Yes, the fans were calling for Tebow, but Orton sped up the process when he played like shit for 4/5 games...

The perfect scenario for Tebiw would have been to start in the 2nd half and play the 3rd and 4th qtrs vs getting thrushed into the starting lineup. Tebow could have shown much more progress under this scenario. It will be quite interesting how Tebow performs against Oakland. Teams now know how to scheme against Tebow............lets hope Tebow can make the adjustments.

Cugel
11-04-2011, 01:42 PM
I never stated the experiment was over... where? I was giving a reason why Fox would finally snap and say what he did. as for the qustion, I dont care whos playing, this team sucks

The experiment is over whether Tebow starts a few more games or not. Baring some miracle where he suddenly starts hitting 60% of his passes out of the pocket he's not going to be starting for the Broncos next season.

Did you notice that Elway and Xanders are traveling around California? They're visiting Stanford and USC! They're not watching Tebow. They're taking a look at Luck and Barkley!


Meanwhile, John Elway​ and Brian Xanders, the top two bosses of the Broncos' football operations department, were spotted attending Stanford practice Wednesday (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19261413). They continued their West Coast tour by attending Cal practices Thursday and will meet up with the Broncos on Saturday for their game Sunday in Oakland.

Even if Tebow wins a few games, the only people who will care will be the Teboners. Elway and Xanders have seen all they have to see. :coffee:

NightTerror218
11-04-2011, 04:31 PM
The experiment is over whether Tebow starts a few more games or not. Baring some miracle where he suddenly starts hitting 60% of his passes out of the pocket he's not going to be starting for the Broncos next season.

Did you notice that Elway and Xanders are traveling around California? They're visiting Stanford and USC! They're not watching Tebow. They're taking a look at Luck and Barkley!



Even if Tebow wins a few games, the only people who will care will be the Teboners. Elway and Xanders have seen all they have to see. :coffee:

I love your opinions are always passed over as facts. Barkley is at USC. He will be in Colorado this weekend. He wont even need to hit 60% he just needs to hit the wide open guys and put points on board for people to be happy. If he throws 55% for rest of season and puts 30 points a game up. People will be happy as long as there is a W.

Funny the rumors I hear about DENVER BRONCO FANS.....they will never be happy at QB unless their is another Elway. The fact is in the last week I have seen how true it is. Wont even give a new QB 3 games before calling for his hear. He plays well and you still try to tear him apart (last 3 games of season last year). it is really just pathetic. My coworkers are ragging on me for looking at the new draft for a QB with Tebow playing so bad, they remind it has only been 2 games and he pulled 1 of them off in an amazing 4th quarter. Cugel you will never be happy with any QB that is obvious, and you hate Tebow before he even started. Same with many people. If TT does turn around this season and play great, so many are already check out on him and other are not happy unless they have a HOF QB, even they they will have doubts because it is not Elway.

Lancane
11-04-2011, 05:58 PM
He wont even need to hit 60% he just needs to hit the wide open guys and put points on board for people to be happy. If he throws 55% for rest of season and puts 30 points a game up. People will be happy as long as there is a W.

I think this is simply a misconception on your part, as to what would satisfy the fans at least. He has to do more then simply hit the wide open receivers, put points on the board and get the win. It's consistency, nothing else matters in an era of football where it's far easier to find franchise capable quarterbacks, and I'm not simply talking about elite quarterbacks, just good old fashion franchise quarterbacks that do what they must on a consistent basis. Broncos' fans are not going to be satisfied with a continuously struggling quarterback that has to rely on his legs to get the W because he's not reliable in the passing game. Yeah, some will be simply happy for a win, but they'll get burnt out on mediocre seasons with no chance to even sniff the postseason.


Funny the rumors I hear about DENVER BRONCO FANS.....they will never be happy at QB unless their is another Elway. The fact is in the last week I have seen how true it is. Wont even give a new QB 3 games before calling for his hear. He plays well and you still try to tear him apart (last 3 games of season last year). it is really just pathetic. My coworkers are ragging on me for looking at the new draft for a QB with Tebow playing so bad, they remind it has only been 2 games and he pulled 1 of them off in an amazing 4th quarter. Cugel you will never be happy with any QB that is obvious, and you hate Tebow before he even started. Same with many people. If TT does turn around this season and play great, so many are already check out on him and other are not happy unless they have a HOF QB, even they they will have doubts because it is not Elway.

As I stated above, it's not that the quarterback need be elite, but franchise capable such as Ken O'Brien, Bernie Kosar, Jim Everett, Steve McNair, Matt Hasselbeck, Rich Gannon, Randall Cunningham or Kerry Collins. Yeah, it would be great to have the next Rodgers, Manning, Elway, Rivers, Marino, Brees or Favre...but at this point someone like Ken O'Brien or Kerry Collins would be a godsend.

Let me ask you a question Phidelt, do you believe that Tebow is a franchise capable quarterback? A no shit assessment or call it a gut feeling, do you see reason to believe he can be the type of quarterback that can pass for over 250 yards at least every game week in and week out, more if need be, even carry the team should it be necessary and completing at least 55% of the passes required of him?

I don't...

There was a thread back not long ago about what pro quarterback did he remind you of, my answer was Jim McMahon. He wasn't a great quarterback, in fact you could say he wasn't even good...he had only ever had one good year, and he likewise played in a conservative offensive system and he struggled at the pro level and ended up playing for six different teams before the end of what was for the most part a mediocre career. He could use his legs, he did the jump passes, he scrambled around and made people miss...Tebow really reminds me of him, and I see a similar career if not worse for Tebow, because at least McMahon could complete a good 60% of his passes and play from the pocket.

If this team is to succeed and Fox's ideal for this team is to come to pass, then we need a franchise capable quarterback who can get the job done, a great ground game and a solid defense, it will take all three pieces for his plan to work.

NightTerror218
11-04-2011, 06:42 PM
I think this is simply a misconception on your part, as to what would satisfy the fans at least. He has to do more then simply hit the wide open receivers, put points on the board and get the win. It's consistency, nothing else matters in an era of football where it's far easier to find franchise capable quarterbacks, and I'm not simply talking about elite quarterbacks, just good old fashion franchise quarterbacks that do what they must on a consistent basis. Broncos' fans are not going to be satisfied with a continuously struggling quarterback that has to rely on his legs to get the W because he's not reliable in the passing game. Yeah, some will be simply happy for a win, but they'll get burnt out on mediocre seasons with no chance to even sniff the postseason.



As I stated above, it's not that the quarterback need be elite, but franchise capable such as Ken O'Brien, Bernie Kosar, Jim Everett, Steve McNair, Matt Hasselbeck, Rich Gannon, Randall Cunningham or Kerry Collins. Yeah, it would be great to have the next Rodgers, Manning, Elway, Rivers, Marino, Brees or Favre...but at this point someone like Ken O'Brien or Kerry Collins would be a godsend.

Let me ask you a question Phidelt, do you believe that Tebow is a franchise capable quarterback? A no shit assessment or call it a gut feeling, do you see reason to believe he can be the type of quarterback that can pass for over 250 yards at least every game week in and week out, more if need be, even carry the team should it be necessary and completing at least 55% of the passes required of him?

I don't...

There was a thread back not long ago about what pro quarterback did he remind you of, my answer was Jim McMahon. He wasn't a great quarterback, in fact you could say he wasn't even good...he had only ever had one good year, and he likewise played in a conservative offensive system and he struggled at the pro level and ended up playing for six different teams before the end of what was for the most part a mediocre career. He could use his legs, he did the jump passes, he scrambled around and made people miss...Tebow really reminds me of him, and I see a similar career if not worse for Tebow, because at least McMahon could complete a good 60% of his passes and play from the pocket.

If this team is to succeed and Fox's ideal for this team is to come to pass, then we need a franchise capable quarterback who can get the job done, a great ground game and a solid defense, it will take all three pieces for his plan to work.

Ask me again in 2-3 weeks. Two games is not enough to tell. If he plays like he did against Houston, sure. If he plays 4 quarters like he did the end of SD and Miami game sure. The big question is can he start playing like the sooner and be consistent. If you bail on a QB after 2 weeks elway would have been gone. So all i say is give him a few more weeks. If the season ended today I would say draft a new Qb and let them fight for starter.

I have have never seen this fanbase completely behind a QB since elway. There will never be another Elway and ever Qb is compared to him.

Lancane
11-04-2011, 06:58 PM
Ask me again in 2-3 weeks. Two games is not enough to tell. If he plays like he did against Houston, sure. If he plays 4 quarters like he did the end of SD and Miami game sure. The big question is can he start playing like the sooner and be consistent. If you bail on a QB after 2 weeks elway would have been gone. So all i say is give him a few more weeks. If the season ended today I would say draft a new Qb and let them fight for starter.

I have have never seen this fanbase completely behind a QB since elway. There will never be another Elway and ever Qb is compared to him.

We've heard or seen how bad he is in practice, of his five starts he's had only one good contest which was against Houston, and he had a slow start on that day as well. He's shown signs of regression not progression and that's after having over a year and three months under two different pro coaching staffs, in a similar offenses yet the newer one dumbed down and with more specific plays which cater to him.

I wouldn't have wanted Elway gone after two weeks, because he was already showing flashes of what he could do even in a conservative offense and that was without a full season with a pro coaching staff, that was being thrown to the wolves and learning while under fire...big difference. Don't worry, I'll ask again later...but please quit bringing Elway into it, after not even a full year under a pro coaching staff he looked like a franchise quarterback, Tebow has had more time to develop and looks like a rookie under center when he is not.

;)

NightTerror218
11-04-2011, 07:16 PM
We've heard or seen how bad he is in practice, of his five starts he's had only one good contest which was against Houston, and he had a slow start on that day as well. He's shown signs of regression not progression and that's after having over a year and three months under two different pro coaching staffs, in a similar offenses yet the newer one dumbed down and with more specific plays which cater to him.

I wouldn't have wanted Elway gone after two weeks, because he was already showing flashes of what he could do even in a conservative offense and that was without a full season with a pro coaching staff, that was being thrown to the wolves and learning while under fire...big difference. Don't worry, I'll ask again later...but please quit bringing Elway into it, after not even a full year under a pro coaching staff he looked like a franchise quarterback, Tebow has had more time to develop and looks like a rookie under center when he is not.

;)


TT has had the amount of work like a rookie would. McD didn't give him much coaching. TT was an idiot over the off season and though he could do it himself. He has not had 1st team reps this season until the last 3 weeks. I want to see him have a few more weeks to work out any tinks there could be with timing issues. I want to know it is him and is unable to do this.

BTW Elway played bad for his first 2 season. His 3rd season was when he really came around and showed his stuff. There was an article a week ago that had a quote from Elways mom during his 1st/2nd year in Denver. She was referring to how the comments from the "Denver fans" hurt much worse then the away fans. I am not going to even compare stats from Elway to TT, different eras in football. But the fact you want to only give TT 2 games is pathetic.

dogfish
11-04-2011, 07:20 PM
somebody posted on PFT that mccoy may as well start using the bible as his playbook, given how effective the current one has been. . .


:heh:

MOtorboat
11-04-2011, 07:24 PM
somebody posted on PFT that mccoy may as well start using the bible as his playbook, given how effective the current one has been. . .


:heh:

I can't believe I'm about to go here...

He should. Tebow has studied the former more than the latter.

BroncoStud
11-05-2011, 02:11 AM
I would imagine Mike McCoy's playbook more resembles a Peanuts comic than anything football. Dude is a joke.

Lancane
11-05-2011, 04:28 AM
TT has had the amount of work like a rookie would. McD didn't give him much coaching.

I keep hearing this and there is no proof (Just another excuses), not to mention that this statement also negates McCoy and others on the offensive staff. Position coaching is not about coaching an individual but an entire group at a given position. He's been coached by a professional staff, and what makes you believe that McDaniels never worked with him? Mini Napoleon is too self righteous to not prove he could develop another quarterback.


TT was an idiot over the off season and though he could do it himself. He has not had 1st team reps this season until the last 3 weeks. I want to see him have a few more weeks to work out any tinks there could be with timing issues. I want to know it is him and is unable to do this.

This is debatable...of whether or not he's an idiot, but he did know the former playbook and knowing that most of the same offensive plays would be used, he had a reference guide to play off of...no matter what people believe. As to the other, that I agree on for the most part, that he hasn't had equal time with first team offense, however...I don't see him earning much more leeway, he's probably done after this Sunday if there is no improvement.


BTW Elway played bad for his first 2 season. His 3rd season was when he really came around and showed his stuff. There was an article a week ago that had a quote from Elways mom during his 1st/2nd year in Denver. She was referring to how the comments from the "Denver fans" hurt much worse then the away fans. I am not going to even compare stats from Elway to TT, different eras in football. But the fact you want to only give TT 2 games is pathetic.

John Elway showed signs of his skill set and ability, he had a few solid games as a rookie in a conservative offense that was not pass orientated.

And just so you know, Dan Reeve's was not only the head coach but also the offensive coordinator in 83', but the Broncos did something in 84' that would change the face of the Broncos forever, they hired a young offensive coordinator from the University of Florida named Mike Shanahan, who also brought along a hot shot offensive line coach from the University of Georgia, Alex Gibbs. The difference was night and day, the Broncos solidified the offense with Elway at the helm and earned a berth in the playoffs. Then in 1985 the offense was built more to cater to Elway who had shown a proficiency deserving such. You say he sucked, I say I saw more in one bad game of Elway's then I have in five from Tebow, let alone his seven pre-season showings!