PDA

View Full Version : If you have NFL Game Rewind, check out coaches film from Detroit game



Tned
11-02-2011, 10:08 PM
I was curious, with all the blame of Tebow for sacks, so since on Wednesday they put the coaches film views up, I decided to take a look.

They had about six of the sacks (didn't count) with coaches film. In all of them, the defender was either on him before he had any chance to react (two blowing past Franklin, and one DT abusing Beadles. The others, the receivers were completely blanketed and he had no place to go with the ball. The bad thing is that in most cases (including the quick sacks) the WRs were in single coverage, but getting zero separation.

So, while there is no doubt that Tebow is doing a ton wrong, but it also appears Fox isn't just blowing smoke when he says the sacks and other problems is a problem beyon just the QB.

Ravage!!!
11-02-2011, 10:14 PM
The QB is the one responsible for calling protections at the LoS. He needs to recognize the blitzes, and make the proper adjustments. Coaches on the sidelines don't have the chance to call a play while seeing the defensive alignment. they are guessing, which is why the QB NEEDS to take charge.

Orton took sacks, but didn't get sacked like this. Why? Because he was making the proper adjustments at the LoS, while Tebow is unable to.

But of course there needs to be better play at the LoS. Nothing is ALL of a single player's fault. However, after 14 sacks in two games, we might start to see a pattern.

Tned
11-02-2011, 10:19 PM
The QB is the one responsible for calling protections at the LoS. He needs to recognize the blitzes, and make the proper adjustments. Coaches on the sidelines don't have the chance to call a play while seeing the defensive alignment. they are guessing, which is why the QB NEEDS to take charge.

Orton took sacks, but didn't get sacked like this. Why? Because he was making the proper adjustments at the LoS, while Tebow is unable to.

But of course there needs to be better play at the LoS. Nothing is ALL of a single player's fault. However, after 14 sacks in two games, we might start to see a pattern.

I have no doubt he's struggling with protection changes. It's pretty common with young players. I took a look, because there has been a lot of talk about how it's simply Tebow taking too long to go through progressions, not seeing open receivers, etc. Based on the coaches film (high sideline view, all 22 players in frame), that wasn't the cases on the sacks against Detroit.

When I looked, I wasn't sure what I was going to find. I honestly expected to find more open receivers, that he simply failed to see.

dogfish
11-03-2011, 12:12 AM
what is NFL game rewind?

Tned
11-03-2011, 12:18 AM
what is NFL game rewind?

At the start of the year it was $40 for the year, might be discounted by now.

It's an NFL.com product, where you get every NFL game. I think as soon as the Sunday night game ends, they are available to watch (hence called rewind, since they aren't live). You get all of the 2011, 2010 and 2009 games on demand in HD on your PC.

Sometimes on Wednesday, they make available "coaches film" (high sideline view of all 22 players and high endzone camera, like the teams use to break down film) for select plays in the game. Usually, they put up the coaches film for 8-12 plays.

Another thing that's cool is that they have every game broken down with a play list. You have three ways to watch the game. Normal, from start to finish with a DVR type control (pause, rewind, etc.), condensed which typically only shows one camera angle/no replay for each play and lets you watch the entire game in 30 minutes (same as NFL Short Cuts for DirectV NFL Sunday Ticket customers), and finally, they have a list of every play in the game and you can click on the play and hop right to that point in the game film.

Basically, it might very well be the best value for $40 I have ever seen.

catfish
11-03-2011, 02:12 AM
I was curious, with all the blame of Tebow for sacks, so since on Wednesday they put the coaches film views up, I decided to take a look.

They had about six of the sacks (didn't count) with coaches film. In all of them, the defender was either on him before he had any chance to react (two blowing past Franklin, and one DT abusing Beadles. The others, the receivers were completely blanketed and he had no place to go with the ball. The bad thing is that in most cases (including the quick sacks) the WRs were in single coverage, but getting zero separation.

So, while there is no doubt that Tebow is doing a ton wrong, but it also appears Fox isn't just blowing smoke when he says the sacks and other problems is a problem beyon just the QB.

this is basically what I was seeing, but was thinking it was my pro-Tebow bias coloring what I was seeing. I think Tebow isn't doing as wll as he could be doing, but I am not suprised considering he is an inexperienced QB playing on what i consider to be a team with a below average talent level. Not to say some of the younger players on the Broncos won't ever produce, they just aren't getting it done now

FanInAZ
11-03-2011, 04:15 AM
At the start of the year it was $40 for the year, might be discounted by now.

It's an NFL.com product, where you get every NFL game. I think as soon as the Sunday night game ends, they are available to watch (hence called rewind, since they aren't live). You get all of the 2011, 2010 and 2009 games on demand in HD on your PC.

Sometimes on Wednesday, they make available "coaches film" (high sideline view of all 22 players and high endzone camera, like the teams use to break down film) for select plays in the game. Usually, they put up the coaches film for 8-12 plays.

Another thing that's cool is that they have every game broken down with a play list. You have three ways to watch the game. Normal, from start to finish with a DVR type control (pause, rewind, etc.), condensed which typically only shows one camera angle/no replay for each play and lets you watch the entire game in 30 minutes (same as NFL Short Cuts for DirectV NFL Sunday Ticket customers), and finally, they have a list of every play in the game and you can click on the play and hop right to that point in the game film.

Basically, it might very well be the best value for $40 I have ever seen.

Do you a commission if we sign up? Seriously, you have sold me on this enough to where I'm going to look into it when I get my next check in a matter of hours.

sneakers
11-03-2011, 05:04 AM
NFL Game Rewind is for nerds. Not surprised at all that Tne(r)d would be interested in it. :D

Dirk
11-03-2011, 06:35 AM
Coach T - that's what I have been saying all week. Recievers getting no separation and Detroit was in his face all day.

I'm glad you took the time to look at the film and confirm what I was thinking.

Of course, Tebow needs to hit the recievers when they are open and doesn't have a defender in his face. LOL

rcsodak
11-03-2011, 06:58 AM
Coach T - that's what I have been saying all week. Recievers getting no separation and Detroit was in his face all day.

I'm glad you took the time to look at the film and confirm what I was thinking.

Of course, Tebow needs to hit the recievers when they are open and doesn't have a defender in his face. LOL
If a qb needs a wr to be open first, there'd be an awful lot of low scoring games.

Thats TTs problem. He's waiting for them to get Gator open.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

catfish
11-03-2011, 06:59 AM
Coach T - that's what I have been saying all week. Recievers getting no separation and Detroit was in his face all day.

I'm glad you took the time to look at the film and confirm what I was thinking.

Of course, Tebow needs to hit the recievers when they are open and doesn't have a defender in his face. LOL

100% agree here

Tned
11-03-2011, 07:04 AM
Do you a commission if we sign up? Seriously, you have sold me on this enough to where I'm going to look into it when I get my next check in a matter of hours.

No commission, but it's an awesome product.

Even though I tape every game on the DVR from NFL Sunday Ticket, when I want to go back and check something, I go to Game Rewind, because with the list of plays, you can get back to exactly where you want nearly instantaneously.

Here's the link: https://gamerewind.nfl.com/nflgr/secure/packages

Looks like they dropped the Season + Pllayoffs by $5, but you can also get just the 2011 season (no playoffs) for $19.95 now.


Coach T - that's what I have been saying all week. Receivers getting no separation and Detroit was in his face all day.

I'm glad you took the time to look at the film and confirm what I was thinking.

Of course, Tebow needs to hit the receivers when they are open and doesn't have a defender in his face. LOL

Yea, I don't want in any way to sound like I am defending Tebow for the mistakes he's making, such as missing receivers when he has had time and they've been open.

However, if we are going to criticize him for what he's doing wrong, we should also point out some of the problems that aren't solely his fault.

Northman
11-03-2011, 07:24 AM
I think its pretty obvious there are other issues. However, even when Orton was playing he wasnt being sacked 6-7 times a game. There's just more to i than that. I just cant understand why people dont realize that Tim is making it harder on the Oline when he's holding onto the ball much longer than he's supposed too. Its one thing if Orton had been getting sacked just as much but that isnt the reality here.

Perhaps something else that doesnt get mentioned much in the way of defense for the Oline is perhaps they arent used to what Tim is going to do back either. For all Franklin knows maybe he feels since Tim cant pass the ball well that when the ball is hiked he may think Tim is just taking off and running anyway so he's letting the defender get by him sooner than he should. There could be a lot of variables there as too why the line is playing differently than they did with Orton.

Dirk
11-03-2011, 07:44 AM
Yea, I don't want in any way to sound like I am defending Tebow for the mistakes he's making, such as missing receivers when he has had time and they've been open.

However, if we are going to criticize him for what he's doing wrong, we should also point out some of the problems that aren't solely his fault.

I agree. There are a lot more problems with this offense than just Tebow.

Tned
11-03-2011, 07:45 AM
I think its pretty obvious there are other issues. However, even when Orton was playing he wasnt being sacked 6-7 times a game. There's just more to i than that. I just cant understand why people dont realize that Tim is making it harder on the Oline when he's holding onto the ball much longer than he's supposed too. Its one thing if Orton had been getting sacked just as much but that isnt the reality here.

Perhaps something else that doesnt get mentioned much in the way of defense for the Oline is perhaps they arent used to what Tim is going to do back either. For all Franklin knows maybe he feels since Tim cant pass the ball well that when the ball is hiked he may think Tim is just taking off and running anyway so he's letting the defender get by him sooner than he should. There could be a lot of variables there as too why the line is playing differently than they did with Orton.

Another thing you have to take into account, is what I posted in this thread or the blitz one last night. Teams are blitzing the Broncos with Tebow more than Orton.

Fox and/or Elway (I think it was Fox) said that Detroit hadn't blitzed this season like they did against Denver. Therefore, Denver hadn't seen it on tape, or gameplanned to address the blitz.

So, on the one hand you can say (probably fairly) that they are blitzing because they don't think Tebow will burn them when they blitz. However, on the other hand, we don't know how many sacks Orton would have if they blitzed him as much as they did Tebow.

Now, Orton might have recognized they first blitz, burned them on a hot route or changed the play, and then they backed off. We don't know. We do know, because it's constantly talked about when complaining about Orton, if the pressure go through as quickly as the line allowed the last two games, Orton would hit the ground a lot. It's really a matter of whether he would have burned them enough to have them stop blitzing.

The fact is that every team is going to keep loading the box to prevent the Broncos (including Tebow) from running, and blitzing Tebow like crazy, until the Broncos start burning teams that blitz. However, it isn't just Tim. They need to have plays to overcome the blitz. They need to work to reduce the 2nd/3rd and longs. The receivers need to get better separation early -- the receivers need to do a better job of recognizing the blitz and breaking off their routes to provide an outlet. And, of course, Tebow needs to start hitting the receivers that are open, and throw the ball away if need be rather than take the sack.

Dreadnought
11-03-2011, 08:45 AM
Another thing you have to take into account, is what I posted in this thread or the blitz one last night. Teams are blitzing the Broncos with Tebow more than Orton.

Fox and/or Elway (I think it was Fox) said that Detroit hadn't blitzed this season like they did against Denver. Therefore, Denver hadn't seen it on tape, or gameplanned to address the blitz.

So, on the one hand you can say (probably fairly) that they are blitzing because they don't think Tebow will burn them when they blitz. However, on the other hand, we don't know how many sacks Orton would have if they blitzed him as much as they did Tebow.

Now, Orton might have recognized they first blitz, burned them on a hot route or changed the play, and then they backed off. We don't know. We do know, because it's constantly talked about when complaining about Orton, if the pressure go through as quickly as the line allowed the last two games, Orton would hit the ground a lot. It's really a matter of whether he would have burned them enough to have them stop blitzing.

The fact is that every team is going to keep loading the box to prevent the Broncos (including Tebow) from running, and blitzing Tebow like crazy, until the Broncos start burning teams that blitz. However, it isn't just Tim. They need to have plays to overcome the blitz. They need to work to reduce the 2nd/3rd and longs. The receivers need to get better separation early -- the receivers need to do a better job of recognizing the blitz and breaking off their routes to provide an outlet. And, of course, Tebow needs to start hitting the receivers that are open, and throw the ball away if need be rather than take the sack.

Sounds like more shotguns and screens are clearly called for. We have had success with screens, and I'd call them until the defense cools its jets down some.

MasterShake
11-03-2011, 08:59 AM
I think its pretty obvious there are other issues. However, even when Orton was playing he wasnt being sacked 6-7 times a game. There's just more to i than that. I just cant understand why people dont realize that Tim is making it harder on the Oline when he's holding onto the ball much longer than he's supposed too. Its one thing if Orton had been getting sacked just as much but that isnt the reality here.

Perhaps something else that doesnt get mentioned much in the way of defense for the Oline is perhaps they arent used to what Tim is going to do back either. For all Franklin knows maybe he feels since Tim cant pass the ball well that when the ball is hiked he may think Tim is just taking off and running anyway so he's letting the defender get by him sooner than he should. There could be a lot of variables there as too why the line is playing differently than they did with Orton.

Mark Schlereth (whom I assume knows a thing or two about Oline play) says that when he watches the game film on Denver we actually have a good one. The problem is on plays that are 3-5 step drops, the offensive linemen are told to disrupt the defensive linemen then the ball should be gone within a few seconds (on the final step of the drop). What it looked like was happening to him was the Oline would disrupt the pass rush, expect the ball to be gone, and Tebow would still be running around to extend the play to get open. I did not get to watch the game, but it sounded like a pretty good assessment. Sounds like the secondary was also throwing our recievers off their routes with bump coverage which adds to accuracy issues in the passing game. You combine that with an agressive pass rush and a QB trying to extend a play you are in for a long day. I don't think we face a DLine quite as dominant the rest of the year so hopefully this can be countered somehow. Short passes to Tight Ends? Roll Outs? Who knows...

BigDaddyBronco
11-03-2011, 09:00 AM
The QB is the one responsible for calling protections at the LoS. He needs to recognize the blitzes, and make the proper adjustments. Coaches on the sidelines don't have the chance to call a play while seeing the defensive alignment. they are guessing, which is why the QB NEEDS to take charge.

Orton took sacks, but didn't get sacked like this. Why? Because he was making the proper adjustments at the LoS, while Tebow is unable to.

But of course there needs to be better play at the LoS. Nothing is ALL of a single player's fault. However, after 14 sacks in two games, we might start to see a pattern.

On lots of teams with young QB's the C is responsible for making protection changes. Unfortunately, we have a 2nd year C as well as a young QB.

Northman
11-03-2011, 09:15 AM
Another thing you have to take into account, is what I posted in this thread or the blitz one last night. Teams are blitzing the Broncos with Tebow more than Orton.

Fox and/or Elway (I think it was Fox) said that Detroit hadn't blitzed this season like they did against Denver. Therefore, Denver hadn't seen it on tape, or gameplanned to address the blitz.

So, on the one hand you can say (probably fairly) that they are blitzing because they don't think Tebow will burn them when they blitz. However, on the other hand, we don't know how many sacks Orton would have if they blitzed him as much as they did Tebow.

Now, Orton might have recognized they first blitz, burned them on a hot route or changed the play, and then they backed off. We don't know. We do know, because it's constantly talked about when complaining about Orton, if the pressure go through as quickly as the line allowed the last two games, Orton would hit the ground a lot. It's really a matter of whether he would have burned them enough to have them stop blitzing.

The fact is that every team is going to keep loading the box to prevent the Broncos (including Tebow) from running, and blitzing Tebow like crazy, until the Broncos start burning teams that blitz. However, it isn't just Tim. They need to have plays to overcome the blitz. They need to work to reduce the 2nd/3rd and longs. The receivers need to get better separation early -- the receivers need to do a better job of recognizing the blitz and breaking off their routes to provide an outlet. And, of course, Tebow needs to start hitting the receivers that are open, and throw the ball away if need be rather than take the sack.

All very true, however Elway was also quoted as saying that Tebow needs to learn how to recognize the blitz and get the ball off quicker. Its a no brainer that teams will blitz Tim because they do not fear him at all with the pass so Tim needs to work on recognizing the blitz, pointing it out to his line and making sure they understand their assignments and most importantly make the passes count and burn them.

Northman
11-03-2011, 09:19 AM
Mark Schlereth (whom I assume knows a thing or two about Oline play) says that when he watches the game film on Denver we actually have a good one. The problem is on plays that are 3-5 step drops, the offensive linemen are told to disrupt the defensive linemen then the ball should be gone within a few seconds (on the final step of the drop). What it looked like was happening to him was the Oline would disrupt the pass rush, expect the ball to be gone, and Tebow would still be running around to extend the play to get open. I did not get to watch the game, but it sounded like a pretty good assessment. Sounds like the secondary was also throwing our recievers off their routes with bump coverage which adds to accuracy issues in the passing game. You combine that with an agressive pass rush and a QB trying to extend a play you are in for a long day. I don't think we face a DLine quite as dominant the rest of the year so hopefully this can be countered somehow. Short passes to Tight Ends? Roll Outs? Who knows...

Totally agree, and thats what i saw when watching the game. Denver has a middle of the pack Oline play this year so while they still have issues of their own i think it falls more on the fact that Tebow simply doesnt scare anybody. Kind of weird saying that since we had said pretty much the same thing about Orton but the difference was at least Orton could make a team pay for it even if it was once in a blue moon. But im sure not having McGahee also didnt help matters even the team was still able to put up decent rushing numbers. Either way, the QB play has got to get BETTER. Tim has got to get rid of the ball faster and improve his accuracy. He just cant leave his Oline out there to dry like that. No matter how good your Oline is, if you hold onto the ball too long they will eventually fold and let a defender get by for a sack.

Ravage!!!
11-03-2011, 09:22 AM
On lots of teams with young QB's the C is responsible for making protection changes. Unfortunately, we have a 2nd year C as well as a young QB.

All centers can help with specific calls....such as how to handle the blocking WITHIN the protection scheme called. Who's taking who and the such. But the center can not see, from being crouched down, like the QB can. He can't see the movement or alignment of the LBs,and if they look to be blitzing. The QB HAS to be able to recognize make protection calls. Of course rookies make rookie mistakes. I'm not saying Tebow should be mistake free. I'm saying that he is far behind what would be expected from a second year QB in the NFL.

Ravage!!!
11-03-2011, 09:24 AM
Totally agree, and thats what i saw when watching the game. Denver has a middle of the pack Oline play this year so while they still have issues of their own i think it falls more on the fact that Tebow simply doesnt scare anybody. Kind of weird saying that since we had said pretty much the same thing about Orton but the difference was at least Orton could make a team pay for it even if it was once in a blue moon. But im sure not having McGahee also didnt help matters even the team was still able to put up decent rushing numbers. Either way, the QB play has got to get BETTER. Tim has got to get rid of the ball faster and improve his accuracy. He just cant leave his Oline out there to dry like that. No matter how good your Oline is, if you hold onto the ball too long they will eventually fold and let a defender get by for a sack.

Or get a holding call.

SoCalImport
11-03-2011, 09:34 AM
Honestly. if there's one player that has stood out to me as being completely in over his head so far it's been Franklin. He's not bad as a run blocker but his pass blocking is terrible and he's now being asked to cover the QBs BLINDSINDE?!?! add that to Tebows troubles and it's a perfect storm for a perfectly ineffective passing game.

Tned
11-03-2011, 09:47 AM
All very true, however Elway was also quoted as saying that Tebow needs to learn how to recognize the blitz and get the ball off quicker. Its a no brainer that teams will blitz Tim because they do not fear him at all with the pass so Tim needs to work on recognizing the blitz, pointing it out to his line and making sure they understand their assignments and most importantly make the passes count and burn them.

Yep, and Fox said that there are a number of problems that have led to the sacks, and not all the same on every play. QB taking too long or not recognizing blitz. Blown blocking assignments. Receivers running wrong or improper routes (can't remember the exact term he used).


Mark Schlereth (whom I assume knows a thing or two about Oline play) says that when he watches the game film on Denver we actually have a good one. The problem is on plays that are 3-5 step drops, the offensive linemen are told to disrupt the defensive linemen then the ball should be gone within a few seconds (on the final step of the drop). What it looked like was happening to him was the Oline would disrupt the pass rush, expect the ball to be gone, and Tebow would still be running around to extend the play to get open. I did not get to watch the game, but it sounded like a pretty good assessment. Sounds like the secondary was also throwing our recievers off their routes with bump coverage which adds to accuracy issues in the passing game. You combine that with an agressive pass rush and a QB trying to extend a play you are in for a long day. I don't think we face a DLine quite as dominant the rest of the year so hopefully this can be countered somehow. Short passes to Tight Ends? Roll Outs? Who knows...

There is no doubt that some of the sacks are exactly what Schlereth said. However, it's also clear that many of the sacks aren't a matter of him scrambling or taking too long to get the ball out.

It's kind of like following one of the preseason games, where Orton had only one or two completions, and Tebow only had one or two incompletions, and ESPN ran a comparison of Orton's best throws vs. Tebow's worse throws.

Because of the nature of the discussion, most analysts are focusing on what Tebow is doing wrong and why he can't be successful if he keeps doing those things, therefore the plays they tend to analyse and highlight at the ones where it's all on Tebow, vs. the ones where other things caused the problems (like say dropped passes, a DE blowing past Franklin, etc.).

As I said, I'm not making excuses for Tebow, because he's missing receivers when he does release the ball, and therefore he's both inviting them to keep blitzing him and he's helping put the team in these third and long situations. However, it's not reality to lay it all on him, because this is an offense mostly made up of 1st and 2nd year players, with the "vets" being 4th year players (Kuper being the exception - McGahee also, but he's been injured for much of Tebow's starting time), you just can't discount the impact of all of these young guys. That's a place where clearly Orton was going to have a huge advantage, from experience, in getting everyone on the same page and other 2nd year QBs likely also would struggle in this area.

All that said, in the end the sacks wouldn't be nearly as big an issue if Tebow wasn't missing open receivers. Until he stops doing that, he and the Broncos can't be successful.

Tned
11-03-2011, 09:48 AM
Honestly. if there's one player that has stood out to me as being completely in over his head so far it's been Franklin. He's not bad as a run blocker but his pass blocking is terrible and he's now being asked to cover the QBs BLINDSINDE?!?! add that to Tebows troubles and it's a perfect storm for a perfectly ineffective passing game.

Those were the reports on him during training camp.

MasterShake
11-03-2011, 10:14 AM
Yep, and Fox said that there are a number of problems that have led to the sacks, and not all the same on every play. QB taking too long or not recognizing blitz. Blown blocking assignments. Receivers running wrong or improper routes (can't remember the exact term he used).



There is no doubt that some of the sacks are exactly what Schlereth said. However, it's also clear that many of the sacks aren't a matter of him scrambling or taking too long to get the ball out.

It's kind of like following one of the preseason games, where Orton had only one or two completions, and Tebow only had one or two incompletions, and ESPN ran a comparison of Orton's best throws vs. Tebow's worse throws.

Because of the nature of the discussion, most analysts are focusing on what Tebow is doing wrong and why he can't be successful if he keeps doing those things, therefore the plays they tend to analyse and highlight at the ones where it's all on Tebow, vs. the ones where other things caused the problems (like say dropped passes, a DE blowing past Franklin, etc.).

As I said, I'm not making excuses for Tebow, because he's missing receivers when he does release the ball, and therefore he's both inviting them to keep blitzing him and he's helping put the team in these third and long situations. However, it's not reality to lay it all on him, because this is an offense mostly made up of 1st and 2nd year players, with the "vets" being 4th year players (Kuper being the exception - McGahee also, but he's been injured for much of Tebow's starting time), you just can't discount the impact of all of these young guys. That's a place where clearly Orton was going to have a huge advantage, from experience, in getting everyone on the same page and other 2nd year QBs likely also would struggle in this area.

All that said, in the end the sacks wouldn't be nearly as big an issue if Tebow wasn't missing open receivers. Until he stops doing that, he and the Broncos can't be successful.

Yeah, its driving me nuts that I didn't see this game. I heard the first drive on the radio as we pulled into the parking lot of the zoo and it sounded promising! :lol:

I'm really looking forward to the Raiders game to see how this whole O-Line/Tebow thing plays out. We may suck this year, but its interesting to watch games just from an assessment standpoint as a fan. That being said if Tebow continues to struggle I don't expect to see him back out after the half. I really want him to succeed an get better because it would help the Broncos, but if we are just throwing things at the wall might as well give Quinn a shot.

Tned
11-03-2011, 10:57 AM
Yeah, its driving me nuts that I didn't see this game. I heard the first drive on the radio as we pulled into the parking lot of the zoo and it sounded promising! :lol:

I'm really looking forward to the Raiders game to see how this whole O-Line/Tebow thing plays out. We may suck this year, but its interesting to watch games just from an assessment standpoint as a fan. That being said if Tebow continues to struggle I don't expect to see him back out after the half. I really want him to succeed an get better because it would help the Broncos, but if we are just throwing things at the wall might as well give Quinn a shot.

I'll be disappointed if Tebow is benched at the half, however bad he's playing. I'm hoping for at least Raiders and Jets and then punt if there's been no improvement.

By punt, I think you have to go Quinn or even Weber, because other than trying to win a couple meaningless games, there is no upside to playing Orton. Quinn, there is a tiny chance that if he played well the Broncos might resign him, even if as a stop gap to bridge the time to a QB they draft next April.

MOtorboat
11-03-2011, 10:58 AM
Tebow, where he's at now in his development, is a defensive coordinators dream. The blitzes that he and the defensive coaches came up with on cocktail napkins at the hotel bar on a roadtrip when they were drunk, they actually get to use.

He's seen incredibly exotic blitzes. Safeties coming over the top in front of stunts with linebackers on the edge...it's just crazy. Delayed linebackers with cornerbacks while the lines is slanting...ugh. Tough for anyone, but extremely tough for him.

Tned
11-03-2011, 11:05 AM
Tebow, where he's at now in his development, is a defensive coordinators dream. The blitzes that he and the defensive coaches came up with on cocktail napkins at the hotel bar on a roadtrip when they were drunk, they actually get to use.

He's seen incredibly exotic blitzes. Safeties coming over the top in front of stunts with linebackers on the edge...it's just crazy. Delayed linebackers with cornerbacks while the lines is slanting...ugh. Tough for anyone, but extremely tough for him.

And until he and the offensive playcalling hurts them, they are going to continue doing it.

Then on the flipside (changing subjects a bit), the Broncos had Detroit in things like 3rd and 12 and not only didn't blitz, but only rushed 3. :confused:

weazel
11-03-2011, 11:12 AM
I was curious, with all the blame of Tebow for sacks, so since on Wednesday they put the coaches film views up, I decided to take a look.

They had about six of the sacks (didn't count) with coaches film. In all of them, the defender was either on him before he had any chance to react (two blowing past Franklin, and one DT abusing Beadles. The others, the receivers were completely blanketed and he had no place to go with the ball. The bad thing is that in most cases (including the quick sacks) the WRs were in single coverage, but getting zero separation.

So, while there is no doubt that Tebow is doing a ton wrong, but it also appears Fox isn't just blowing smoke when he says the sacks and other problems is a problem beyon just the QB.

:listen: TNED, this team sucks

The Broncos have so many holes at so many positions, its going to take years to fix it. Shanny ignored the defense for too long and then hurricane Josh came in and ruined the offense. It was the perfect storm

MasterShake
11-03-2011, 11:19 AM
I'll be disappointed if Tebow is benched at the half, however bad he's playing. I'm hoping for at least Raiders and Jets and then punt if there's been no improvement.

By punt, I think you have to go Quinn or even Weber, because other than trying to win a couple meaningless games, there is no upside to playing Orton. Quinn, there is a tiny chance that if he played well the Broncos might resign him, even if as a stop gap to bridge the time to a QB they draft next April.

Yeah good point. The only bad thing about the Jets game is that its on a Thursday night which only gives them a few days to prepare for a pretty good team. Getting McGahee healthy will help a lot if he can play like he was before the injury. I'd love to see Tebow working with a good running play and trying to convert a 3rd and short. That will slow down the game for him and help a lot.

Cugel
11-03-2011, 11:23 AM
I was curious, with all the blame of Tebow for sacks, so since on Wednesday they put the coaches film views up, I decided to take a look.

They had about six of the sacks (didn't count) with coaches film. In all of them, the defender was either on him before he had any chance to react (two blowing past Franklin, and one DT abusing Beadles. The others, the receivers were completely blanketed and he had no place to go with the ball. The bad thing is that in most cases (including the quick sacks) the WRs were in single coverage, but getting zero separation.

So, while there is no doubt that Tebow is doing a ton wrong, but it also appears Fox isn't just blowing smoke when he says the sacks and other problems is a problem beyon just the QB.

If you want to waste your time pretending that Tebow has a future with the Denver Broncos by all means, knock yourself out. :ranger:

Why is Tebow under such immediate pressure? Because Defenses are rushing 8 men and only keeping 3 in coverage.

Why are defenses able to rush 8 men? Because Tebow can't make throws downfield. Simple.

BroncoJoe
11-03-2011, 11:27 AM
Clearly Tebow gets sacked more than Orton, but Orton threw 7 picks also. I'd rather have the sack.

Funny - in light of the Detroit game - no one talks about the spanking Green Bay put on us as well, without Tebow starting.

Cugel
11-03-2011, 11:32 AM
Clearly Tebow gets sacked more than Orton, but Orton threw 7 picks also. I'd rather have the sack.

Funny - in light of the Detroit game - no one talks about the spanking Green Bay put on us as well, without Tebow starting.

That's because Green Bay does that to everybody. You might have noticed that they are undefeated and are as likely as any team in the last 10 years to win all their remaining games. :coffee:

Northman
11-03-2011, 11:33 AM
Funny - in light of the Detroit game - no one talks about the spanking Green Bay put on us as well, without Tebow starting.

Oh, i did. But then everyone kept telling me how well we played (if you could call it that) against Oak, Cincy, and Tenn. :lol:

Northman
11-03-2011, 11:33 AM
That's because Green Bay does that to everybody. You might have noticed that they are undefeated and are as likely as any team in the last 10 years to win all their remaining games. :coffee:

To be fair, Detroit put a serious whooping on KC at the beginning of the year.

BroncoJoe
11-03-2011, 11:35 AM
That's because Green Bay does that to everybody. You might have noticed that they are undefeated and are as likely as any team in the last 10 years to win all their remaining games. :coffee:

Detroit will challenge Green Bay when they play. They had a slump, but they're clearly a very good football team.

claymore
11-03-2011, 12:12 PM
Clearly Tebow gets sacked more than Orton, but Orton threw 7 picks also. I'd rather have the sack.

Funny - in light of the Detroit game - no one talks about the spanking Green Bay put on us as well, without Tebow starting.

They were to busy bitching about Orton and pushing for Tebow to start. Everyone knew we would lose.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
11-03-2011, 12:58 PM
The QB is the one responsible for calling protections at the LoS. He needs to recognize the blitzes, and make the proper adjustments. Coaches on the sidelines don't have the chance to call a play while seeing the defensive alignment. they are guessing, which is why the QB NEEDS to take charge.

Orton took sacks, but didn't get sacked like this. Why? Because he was making the proper adjustments at the LoS, while Tebow is unable to.

But of course there needs to be better play at the LoS. Nothing is ALL of a single player's fault. However, after 14 sacks in two games, we might start to see a pattern.

Orton also had a decent WR he could target in those situations, Brandon Lloyd. We did Tebow a major disservice by trading our #1 WR right before he makes his first start. Right now, Eddie Royal is the oldest WR we have. :tsk:

The only two WR's I trust right now to be in the right place at the right time are Eddie and Decker.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Tebow hasn't made bad decisions, because he has.

Lancane
11-03-2011, 12:59 PM
I wish Denver never drafted the s.o.b, if not for his fans he'd be nothing more then an afterthought!

:tsk:

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
11-03-2011, 01:03 PM
I wish Denver never drafted the s.o.b, if not for his fans he'd be nothing more then an afterthought!

:tsk:

Is that directed at me? I've been a Broncos fan for over 30 years dude, and I'll be one when Tebow is gone.

Tned
11-03-2011, 01:10 PM
Yeah good point. The only bad thing about the Jets game is that its on a Thursday night which only gives them a few days to prepare for a pretty good team. Getting McGahee healthy will help a lot if he can play like he was before the injury. I'd love to see Tebow working with a good running play and trying to convert a 3rd and short. That will slow down the game for him and help a lot.

Then, after the Jet's game the team will have three extra days to prepare a new QB, if they want to go with Quinn or Weber (presumably Orton wouldn't need much prep time).


If you want to waste your time pretending that Tebow has a future with the Denver Broncos by all means, knock yourself out. :ranger:


Compared to you having wasted years pretending to have foresight and knowledge normally only attributed to God-like entities?

Then again, your track record has made it clear that your pretending to have foresight and actually having it are too totally different things.

Why not try having a discussion without being rude and antagonistic? Who knows, you might surprise yourself and enjoy acting like a civil person.

:coffee:

Mike
11-03-2011, 01:36 PM
I swear, half the reason I want Tebow to do better is to shut a lot of you guys up.

He sucks right now, we get it. You don't think he will succeed, we get it. He is also a second year player with 5 starts on a team with severe talent and coaching limitations.

Give me a freaking break. The Broncos suck. Tebow sucks. They are a team with a serious lack of talent at almost every position and holes all over the roster. I was disappointed when they drafted Tebow, but Denver invested in him and I damn sure want to see them at least attempt to evaluate him before they remove him. He deserves a legitimate shot (2 games is not a legitimate shot no matter what a lot of idiots think) and the fans should be a little lenient with him, given his lack of experience and his own and the team's (to include the coaches) handicaps. But you guys keep screwing that chicken and being good little Hodges.

G_Money
11-03-2011, 02:06 PM
I swear, half the reason I want Tebow to do better is to shut a lot of you guys up.

He sucks right now, we get it. You don't think he will succeed, we get it. He is also a second year player with 5 starts on a team with severe talent and coaching limitations.

Give me a freaking break. The Broncos suck. Tebow sucks. They are a team with a serious lack of talent at almost every position and holes all over the roster. I was disappointed when they drafted Tebow, but Denver invested in him and I damn sure want to see them at least attempt to evaluate him before they remove him.

I listen to 104.3 occasionally and have to turn the channel rather quickly these days. I just wonder what's gonna happen if Carson Palmer throws more picks in this game, Tebow is playing with a short field, hits a couple of receivers and we pull out a win in Oak-town. The over-reaction stuff with Tebow is insane on both sides now. Polarized is an understatement.

Before, I wanted Tebow-crazies to get a good dose of how far he needs to come to be a good QB, but now it's gone the other way - I want Tebow to make a few people eat crow.

I still think he's not the guy, but man...if we'd fired Elway after he got benched, or put his hands under the guard instead of the center...

Peyton Manning led the league in interceptions his rookie year, and had a 71 rating.

Eli Manning couldn't complete even 50% of his passes in his first 9 games, had a 55 rating.

Steve Young had a year in the USFL to get his feet wet, came to Tampa and put up a 3 TD/ 8 picks / 21 sacks performance for a 57 rating in his 5 games that year.

Michael Vick didn't post a completion % higher than 56% until he got to Philly.

Jake Plummer had 3 years with a rating under 66 and a completion percentage his entire Cardinals career of 56%. He had a 1:1 TD:INT ratio in the desert, and led the league in INTs twice in his career.

Let him attempt to grow A LITTLE BIT before we throw him out the door. Finding out if Tebow can grow his game is important - and we're not doing anything else important this year anyway.

Just let him play and see if he's still making the same mistakes at the same rate in a month or two.

My guess is he needs to have a good game in the next two (avoiding sacks, making first downs, being accurate with his throws) or he's not gonna get much longer.

Which I think would be a mistake, but there are locker room repercussions as well as office-politics and fan-resentment ones to consider.

~G

Lancane
11-03-2011, 02:12 PM
Is that directed at me? I've been a Broncos fan for over 30 years dude, and I'll be one when Tebow is gone.

No...it wasn't directed at anyone, it was a broad general statement. That I, like many other fans am tired of the Tebowmania and wish that it had never come to town.

;)

Lancane
11-03-2011, 02:22 PM
I swear, half the reason I want Tebow to do better is to shut a lot of you guys up.

He sucks right now, we get it. You don't think he will succeed, we get it. He is also a second year player with 5 starts on a team with severe talent and coaching limitations.

Give me a freaking break. The Broncos suck. Tebow sucks. They are a team with a serious lack of talent at almost every position and holes all over the roster. I was disappointed when they drafted Tebow, but Denver invested in him and I damn sure want to see them at least attempt to evaluate him before they remove him. He deserves a legitimate shot (2 games is not a legitimate shot no matter what a lot of idiots think) and the fans should be a little lenient with him, given his lack of experience and his own and the team's (to include the coaches) handicaps. But you guys keep screwing that chicken and being good little Hodges.

Mike... Why do you think that people want him to fail so badly or are unwilling to give him much more time in this three ring circus act?

It's rather simple, the answer that is. It's because people are sick of exposure from his fanatical followers that place him on a pedestal without even proving himself. Blaine Gabbert has struggled in Jacksonville, has he made national news every time he takes a crap? No... But Tebow is praised by his fans, they're plaguing the airways with this cult like behavior, if Charles Manson knew this is all it took, he'd have played football at Florida!

It's rather sad, I've never wanted a kid to fail so bad, and there was a time I hoped he succeeded simply because the uniform...but let's be honest, we've seen this before, being called unfair - it was the same with Van Pelt, Mauck and others, they at least waited to be drafted to have groupies, Tebow had his before he was drafted. Aren't you sick of this team being an international joke? I know I am, and the longer this goes, the longer it will take to fix and it will just go on and on, a cycle of never ending change until someone comes along knowledgeable enough to put a stop to it.

Cugel
11-03-2011, 02:47 PM
Mike... Why do you think that people want him to fail so badly or are unwilling to give him much more time in this three ring circus act?

It's rather simple, the answer that is. It's because people are sick of exposure from his fanatical followers that place him on a pedestal without even proving himself. Blaine Gabbert has struggled in Jacksonville, has he made national news every time he takes a crap? No... But Tebow is praised by his fans, they're plaguing the airways with this cult like behavior, if Charles Manson knew this is all it took, he'd have played football at Florida!

It's rather sad, I've never wanted a kid to fail so bad, and there was a time I hoped he succeeded simply because the uniform...but let's be honest, we've seen this before, being called unfair - it was the same with Van Pelt, Mauck and others, they at least waited to be drafted to have groupies, Tebow had his before he was drafted. Aren't you sick of this team being an international joke? I know I am, and the longer this goes, the longer it will take to fix and it will just go on and on, a cycle of never ending change until someone comes along knowledgeable enough to put a stop to it.

The sad thing is that no matter what Tebow does a portion of the fan base is simply never going to accept that he can't play QB in the NFL. It's going to be that the Broncos coaching staff failed Tebow. :rolleyes:

They should have tailored the offense more to his unique skills (even more than they are doing that is). They should have coached him better. They should have nursed him and wiped his chin with a nice soft tissue.

It's beyond absurd but the Teboners are living on another planet in which it's just taken for granted that because Tebow was such a success in college that automatically means he's going to succeed in the NFL, and you just have to have faith and stick with him until he develops.

Shannon Sharpe was right in calling the "Tebow nation" "a cult." :ranger:

Ultimately, they will be left with a feeling of bitterness that the NFL is just prejudiced against Tebow and nobody will "give him a chance to succeed." They can't admit they were wrong to believe in him to begin with.

Dreadnought
11-03-2011, 02:59 PM
I swear, half the reason I want Tebow to do better is to shut a lot of you guys up.

He sucks right now, we get it. You don't think he will succeed, we get it. He is also a second year player with 5 starts on a team with severe talent and coaching limitations.

Give me a freaking break. The Broncos suck. Tebow sucks. They are a team with a serious lack of talent at almost every position and holes all over the roster. I was disappointed when they drafted Tebow, but Denver invested in him and I damn sure want to see them at least attempt to evaluate him before they remove him. He deserves a legitimate shot (2 games is not a legitimate shot no matter what a lot of idiots think) and the fans should be a little lenient with him, given his lack of experience and his own and the team's (to include the coaches) handicaps. But you guys keep screwing that chicken and being good little Hodges.

They are filling the hole in the roster left open by Jagsbch's departure, Mike

Mike
11-03-2011, 03:32 PM
Mike... Why do you think that people want him to fail so badly or are unwilling to give him much more time in this three ring circus act?

It's rather simple, the answer that is. It's because people are sick of exposure from his fanatical followers that place him on a pedestal without even proving himself. Blaine Gabbert has struggled in Jacksonville, has he made national news every time he takes a crap? No... But Tebow is praised by his fans, they're plaguing the airways with this cult like behavior, if Charles Manson knew this is all it took, he'd have played football at Florida!

It's rather sad, I've never wanted a kid to fail so bad, and there was a time I hoped he succeeded simply because the uniform...but let's be honest, we've seen this before, being called unfair - it was the same with Van Pelt, Mauck and others, they at least waited to be drafted to have groupies, Tebow had his before he was drafted. Aren't you sick of this team being an international joke? I know I am, and the longer this goes, the longer it will take to fix and it will just go on and on, a cycle of never ending change until someone comes along knowledgeable enough to put a stop to it.

I could care less about his exposure. I don't watch ESPN/NFLN and don't go to their websites. Their opinion and coverage of Tebow is of no consequence. They exist to create controversy.

Who cares what non-Bronco fans care about? Let them rave about Tebow. Real fans know that he has stunk up the joint...but also know that he is young/inexperienced and is put into a very rough situation given Denver's lack of talent on the field and in coaching.

In any case, that is not a reason to want to see failure. I understand thinking that he doesn't have the physical tools to succeed and expressing it. But that still isn't a reason to root for him to fail. He is a Bronco, like it or not, and like past Bronco losers (yes, Orton, I am looking at you), deserves to be given a fair opportunity. His success means Bronco success, so how is that bad. And if he fails, then he fails, and Denver moves on. We have sucked for years now, sucking a little more the rest of this year won't change anything.

It is important to remember that he is a young kid who did not ask for any of this. His desire is to play well and help the team out. He is a team first guy with a lot of heart and passion for the game.

I am skeptical, based off of what I have seen, that he will be the QB we need. But I refuse to succumb to the media, his cult-like followers, and the annoyance that surrounds him. And I refuse to root for him to fail because the Broncos are "viewed" as a joke. Newsflash, we were a joke without him at QB. Nothing has changed. If he fails, they remove him and fix the team. We certainly can't do that this season, so let him have his chance.

You don't have to be extreme. Both sides are absolutely bat-shit crazy in how they are acting towards the kid if you ask me. What is interesting is the way both sides are behaving is a smaller example of the problem our country is having politically (both sides heavily entrenched in their position, bound by their position, extreme reactions, childish behavior, refusal to see the other side/bend/admit they may be wrong, take their position to the death) IMO...but that is another conversation for another forum.

There is no reason to take it so personal. People are wrong all the time. If he matures and shows something by the end of the season then I will have been wrong. And it won't bother me one bit. I certainly won't root and hope for his failure to prove that I am right. I will hope for the best, but expect the worst though.

dogfish
11-03-2011, 03:50 PM
great post, mike. . . i wish people would judge tebow on what he says and does, instead of what people say about him. . . he can't help all that shit-- didn't ask for it, and almost certainly doesn't want it. . . it sucks that people hold stuff against him that he has absolutely no control over. . .

there's MORE than enough to be critical of without hanging ****ing BSPN over the poor kid's head. . .