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Denver Native (Carol)
11-02-2011, 12:55 PM
The Detroit Lions said after Sunday’s game against the Broncos that they went into the game with the plan to put pressure on quarterback Tim Tebow and the Broncos, and they did just that, registering seven sacks. All in all, that brings the total times opponents have sacked Tebow to 13 this year.

However, on ‘Elway Live’ (can hear what was said) Tuesday, Executive Vice President of Football Operations John Elway said a lot more goes into blitz pickup than meets the eye, and the responsibility lies with the entire offense.

“The thing is, everybody can take their turns getting beat, but if you’re taking it at different times then you don’t have very good protection,” Elway said. “That’s why it’s so important for everybody to be able to hold up. So therefore, the ball’s got to get out of there quicker with a little more anticipation and those are the times we have to make big plays; receivers have to run great routes and get open quickly, catch the football and try to get it there where they can catch it and run with the ball after they catch it, and hopefully break a tackle, then you’ve got a big play.”

http://blog.denverbroncos.com/denverbroncos/elway-on-blitz-pickup-second-quarter/

rcsodak
11-02-2011, 01:37 PM
Key point is 'getting it there'.

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Mike
11-02-2011, 02:02 PM
Key point is 'getting it there'.

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No the key point is multi-faceted.

- QB has to be able to recognize where the pressure is coming from. And know the ball has to get out quickly.

- QB has to know where his WRs are going to be and has to trust that they will be there and then deliver it.

- OC has to design plays that take aggressive defenses into account and ways to neutralize them.

- OC has to design routes that are short and high-percentage plays and help get the QB in a rhythm.

- OC has to recognize the defense and bring in extra blockers when you lineman are getting beat like a drum.

Tebow needs good coaching to help him with a lot of it. He needs to develop timing and chemistry with his receivers (takes time) and he needs to stop thinking so much. The coach needs to help him get comfortable so that he can function more efficiently and design plays/making in-game adjustments that help achieve that.

From what I have seen on the field the last two weeks it doesn't look like any of that is happening and that is why everything has looked completely inept.

There is no defending Tebow's play right now. But the game plan and coaching are equally indefensible. It is not an either or and the only people that make it so are on the extreme sides of the arguments.

dogfish
11-02-2011, 02:06 PM
No the key point is multi-faceted.

- QB has to be able to recognize where the pressure is coming from. And know the ball has to get out quickly.

- QB has to know where his WRs are going to be and has to trust that they will be there and then deliver it.

- OC has to design plays that take aggressive defenses into account and ways to neutralize them.

- OC has to design routes that are short and high-percentage plays and help get the QB in a rhythm.

- OC has to recognize the defense and bring in extra blockers when you lineman are getting beat like a drum.

Tebow needs good coaching to help him with a lot of it. He needs to develop timing and chemistry with his receivers (takes time) and he needs to stop thinking so much. The coach needs to help him get comfortable so that he can function more efficiently and design plays/making in-game adjustments that help achieve that.

From what I have seen on the field the last two weeks it doesn't look like any of that is happening and that is why everything has looked completely inept.

There is no defending Tebow's play right now. But the game plan and coaching are equally indefensible. It is not an either or and the only people that make it so are on the extreme sides of the arguments.

all of this, and the right tackle needs to occasionally at least slow the rush down. . . right now, we can't do any of that, so of course teams are gonna blitz the shit out of us. . .

Mike
11-02-2011, 02:07 PM
all of this, and the right tackle needs to occasionally at least slow the rush down. . . right now, we can't do any of that, so of course teams are gonna blitz the shit out of us. . .

Which is where you bring your TE to help. Franklin might get better with time, but you have to give him help and not hang him out to dry.

dogfish
11-02-2011, 02:09 PM
Which is where you bring your TE to help. Franklin might get better with time, but you have to give him help and not hang him out to dry.

that would be good too. . .

rcsodak
11-02-2011, 05:46 PM
No the key point is multi-faceted.

- QB has to be able to recognize where the pressure is coming from. And know the ball has to get out quickly.

- QB has to know where his WRs are going to be and has to trust that they will be there and then deliver it.

- OC has to design plays that take aggressive defenses into account and ways to neutralize them.

- OC has to design routes that are short and high-percentage plays and help get the QB in a rhythm.

- OC has to recognize the defense and bring in extra blockers when you lineman are getting beat like a drum.

Tebow needs good coaching to help him with a lot of it. He needs to develop timing and chemistry with his receivers (takes time) and he needs to stop thinking so much. The coach needs to help him get comfortable so that he can function more efficiently and design plays/making in-game adjustments that help achieve that.

From what I have seen on the field the last two weeks it doesn't look like any of that is happening and that is why everything has looked completely inept.

There is no defending Tebow's play right now. But the game plan and coaching are equally indefensible. It is not an either or and the only people that make it so are on the extreme sides of the arguments.

Mike, do you think a rookie in luck/jones or the usc qb would be having such a hard time?

Personally, i dont. They all are able to throe spirals, hit their wr's in stride and read coverages/blitzes.
It shouldnt take an entire season of special coaching to have a qb thats at least competent.

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rcsodak
11-02-2011, 05:48 PM
Who was the RT when F(cant make myself say his name) went out?

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nevcraw
11-02-2011, 06:15 PM
Mike, do you think a rookie in luck/jones or the usc qb would be having such a hard time?

Personally, i dont. They all are able to throe spirals, hit their wr's in stride and read coverages/blitzes.
It shouldnt take an entire season of special coaching to have a qb thats at least competent.

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nobody would have time with the combination of play calling, youthful OL play and inexperienced WR's. Elway was not just calling out Tebow but you read what you want..

rcsodak
11-02-2011, 06:27 PM
nobody would have time with the combination of play calling, youthful OL play and inexperienced WR's. Elway was not just calling out Tebow but you read what you want..
The ONLY reason teams are stacking the line and constantly bringing the pressure, is BECAUSE they know TT can't complete a pass.

Doesn't take a genius to read whats said by the other teams.

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nevcraw
11-02-2011, 07:24 PM
The ONLY reason teams are stacking the line and constantly bringing the pressure, is BECAUSE they know TT can't complete a pass.

Doesn't take a genius to read whats said by the other teams.

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really-- only reason? how about no deep threat to keep the defense honest? How about no threat of a running game against detroit with 2 up the gut and 3rd down 7 step drop pass calling? How about the rookie OT and 2 other youngster giving up ground -- one reason only, huh?
Football being a team sport and all and a chess match at that there is hardly ever just one reason.

TXBRONC
11-02-2011, 07:26 PM
The ONLY reason teams are stacking the line and constantly bringing the pressure, is BECAUSE they know TT can't complete a pass.

Doesn't take a genius to read whats said by the other teams.

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What's happening to Tebow is nothing unique to him. Teams would do the same thing to Luck, Jones, Barkley, and any young and relatively inexperienced quarterback. Heck for that matter teams were doing similar things to Orton as well.

LawDog
11-02-2011, 07:33 PM
The ONLY reason teams are stacking the line and constantly bringing the pressure, is BECAUSE they know TT can't complete a pass.

Doesn't take a genius to read whats said by the other teams.

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No, that's Detroit's standard defensive play. Look at the Monday night game in week 5 vs. Chicago. They were continually pressuring Cutler -- who has a similarly abysmal OL -- yet Jay was able to complete 28 of 38. Why? Because the vast majority of those passes were short passes. The majority of his (very few) deep throws were incomplete. Cutler did a better job of getting the ball out, which you would expect from a veteran QB, but still managed to get sacked 3 times, and was hurried and hit tons more than that.

Jay threw only 2 deep balls in the first half and went 1/1. At the same time, he threw 13 short balls and with only 3 incompletions. He had just one first half sack on a third and short.

Tim threw 6 deeps in the first half completing only 1, and threw short just 7 times completing 3 of them and was sacked 3 times, twice on third and long and once on second and 5.

Gee, I wonder why Tim looked like crap...

Nick
11-02-2011, 07:46 PM
Mike, do you think a rookie in luck/jones or the usc qb would be having such a hard time?

Personally, i dont. They all are able to throe spirals, hit their wr's in stride and read coverages/blitzes.
It shouldnt take an entire season of special coaching to have a qb thats at least competent.

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Luck or RG3 :D wouldn't have tough time at all with their quick release.

But I agree and is obvious, Elway was saying nicely it was Tebow. :lol:

Nick
11-02-2011, 07:47 PM
No, that's Detroit's standard defensive play. Look at the Monday night game in week 5 vs. Chicago. They were continually pressuring Cutler -- who has a similarly abysmal OL -- yet Jay was able to complete 28 of 38. Why? Because the vast majority of those passes were short passes. The majority of his (very few) deep throws were incomplete. Cutler did a better job of getting the ball out, which you would expect from a veteran QB, but still managed to get sacked 3 times, and was hurried and hit tons more than that.

Jay threw only 2 deep balls in the first half and went 1/1. At the same time, he threw 13 short balls and with only 3 incompletions. He had just one first half sack on a third and short.

Tim threw 6 deeps in the first half completing only 1, and threw short just 7 times completing 3 of them and was sacked 3 times, twice on third and long and once on second and 5.

Gee, I wonder why Tim looked like crap...

ALSO Bears O-line makes Broncos look like the best line in the history of the NFL. :)

rcsodak
11-02-2011, 08:14 PM
really-- only reason? how about no deep threat to keep the defense honest? How about no threat of a running game against detroit with 2 up the gut and 3rd down 7 step drop pass calling? How about the rookie OT and 2 other youngster giving up ground -- one reason only, huh?
Football being a team sport and all and a chess match at that there is hardly ever just one reason.
Like i said, i can read what the other team's saying. And it was repeated this week by their coach on the radio.
Sorry to rain on your TT parade. ;')

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rcsodak
11-02-2011, 08:17 PM
Gee, I wonder why Tim looked like crap...
Cuz he is?

Oops....
Is that a rhetorical question, dog? ;')

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rcsodak
11-02-2011, 08:20 PM
Listen to any ex nfl qb, and theyll tell you its on the qb to see the pressure/blitz and either make the adjustment call at the los or simply get rid of the ball.
TT cant SEE it. How the heck is he going to avoid it!

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nevcraw
11-02-2011, 08:22 PM
Like i said, i can read what the other team's saying. And it was repeated this week by their coach on the radio.
Sorry to rain on your TT parade. ;')

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I prefer to use what I see, read and hear with a huge dose of deductive reasoning.. but hey that's just me!

rcsodak
11-02-2011, 08:34 PM
I prefer to use what I see, read and hear with a huge dose of deductive reasoning.. but hey that's just me!

If that were the case here, you'd not be arguing in futility.

BEsiason:'I'd love him as my son-in-law, but NOT as my starting QB'.

TRyan: 'NO WAY!'

PKirwin:'he's not an nfl QB'

Not quote marks as theyre not verbatim.

Add in the comments from Det players, and their HC, who said their plan was to make him beat them by being a passing QB.

Thank goodness for 4th qtr stats, eh?

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nevcraw
11-02-2011, 10:09 PM
If that were the case here, you'd not be arguing in futility.

BEsiason:'I'd love him as my son-in-law, but NOT as my starting QB'.

TRyan: 'NO WAY!'

PKirwin:'he's not an nfl QB'

Not quote marks as theyre not verbatim.

Add in the comments from Det players, and their HC, who said their plan was to make him beat them by being a passing QB.

Thank goodness for 4th qtr stats, eh?

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you don't need to respond because it will never end and i'm bored.. but as I see it --some only want to prove they are right by calling out 5th game starter for not being good yet while all should have known he needed a lot of help and time, and others (me) want patience to be exerted to build around current players instead of dumping guys with little chance to prove themselves, w/ plenty to show all the while the team is having to start over every 2 years..
People need to take the riot suits off and let the rebuilding process be what it is.. a process.

BTW - did you hear anything John Lynch had to say during the game? I think he knows a thing or 2 and it was apparent to him -- tebow was not being put into a best chance to succeed by the game being called. but hey that future HOF'er is not a also ran 3rd string Lineman and a washed out Exec. or a QB that has been sitting in the studio bucket seats so long he's contracted bed sores..

Ravage!!!
11-02-2011, 10:22 PM
Guys... it the QBs responsibility to make the protection adjustments at the LoS while making his pre-snap reads. The coaches can't see the defensive alignments before calling the play. There is always adjustments on every play.. hot-routes that are read to be called/read (by both he QB and WR...which is why they need to be on the same page).

Getting the ball, finding the hot-receiver, and getting RID of the ball to the hot receiver is the job of the QB. Right now, the QB is having a VERY hard time recognizing what kind of defense the other team is in, calling the protections that fit, finding the hot route, and actually getting the ball out. He doesn't have the basic mechanics to even begin to deal with what he's seeing.

His first instinct, instead of finding the hot-route..... is to run. After all, it worked in the SEC ... the TOUGHEST CONFERENCE IN FOOTBALL.

Ravage!!!
11-02-2011, 10:28 PM
BTW - did you hear anything John Lynch had to say during the game? I think he knows a thing or 2 and it was apparent to him -- tebow was not being put into a best chance to succeed by the game being called. but hey that future HOF'er is not a also ran 3rd string Lineman and a washed out Exec. or a QB that has been sitting in the studio bucket seats so long he's contracted bed sores..

So what you want to do is believe the guy that sees your perspective, and degrade those that don't. There have been a LOT more, respectable, knowledgeable, and intelligent football players that have said Tebow is NOT ready to be starting in the NFL than those that are trying to be nice on TV. Boomer is just one, and he is MORE than knowledgeable. He knows MUCH more about the QB position than a safety. So does Jaws. So does Dilfer. So does some guy by the name of Young.

nevcraw
11-02-2011, 10:54 PM
So what you want to do is believe the guy that sees your perspective, and degrade those that don't. There have been a LOT more, respectable, knowledgeable, and intelligent football players that have said Tebow is NOT ready to be starting in the NFL than those that are trying to be nice on TV. Boomer is just one, and he is MORE than knowledgeable. He knows MUCH more about the QB position than a safety. So does Jaws. So does Dilfer. So does some guy by the name of Young.

let's jump into the middle of conversation with out context shall we?

To be clear -- I don't give a shit what the ex-players etc. are saying except there are people on both sides saying a lot.. but if it comes down to it I will take a Montana opinion over a Dilfer. and yes a safety who studied QB's every day for a 15 years knows more than you may give him credit for.

But with that aside my feelings are we need to let this play out and give him the tools, plays, and support to see what he has. I believe you are not going to miraculously see him turn it all around in a game, that there will be good and bad in one game for a while and that is alright. and let the process unfold without the team, the fans, and the pundits forcing premature decisions.
otherwise we will be a team always rebuilding and never built.

BroncoStud
11-02-2011, 11:19 PM
The ONLY reason teams are stacking the line and constantly bringing the pressure, is BECAUSE they know TT can't complete a pass.

Doesn't take a genius to read whats said by the other teams.

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Your boy and 7 year pro Kyle Orton wasn't doing any better... The problem starts with McCoy and just spreads like fungus from there.

Tebow needs a REALLY good coach to make it even come close to working, instead he has an idiot like McCoy. Mike McCoy should have been fired last year let alone so far this year.

HORSEPOWER 56
11-02-2011, 11:25 PM
Which is where you bring your TE to help. Franklin might get better with time, but you have to give him help and not hang him out to dry.

I still just don't get Franklin at RT...

Franklin, who played mostly guard in college, would be outstanding next to Clady on the left side. Honestly, I'd move Franklin to LG and kick Beadles (who is struggling mightily against bigger, stronger DTs) out to RT. Beadles played mostly tackle, LT to be exact, at Utah. He's a little smaller, but he's probably a much better pass protector against smaller, faster DEs than he is vs DTs.

I just don't understand why they don't at least try it. Kuper could help Beadles out with run blocking to the right, and Clady and Franklin would be great at run blocking to the left. Franklin would also be a HUGE improvement on up the gut runs. If Beadles can't handle RT, we can draft another one or grab a FA next year, but right now Franklin is getting killed by speed edge-rushers and Beadles is getting pushed back into the pocket by bigger, stronger bull-rushing DTs.

Makes no sense to me. :tsk:

BroncoStud
11-02-2011, 11:27 PM
I still just don't get Franklin at RT...

Franklin, who played mostly guard in college, would be outstanding next to Clady on the left side. Honestly, I'd move Franklin to LG and kick Beadles (who is struggling mightily against bigger, stronger DTs) out to RT. Beadles played mostly tackle, LT to be exact, at Utah. He's a little smaller, but he's probably a much better pass protector against smaller, faster DEs than he is vs DTs.

I just don't understand why they don't at least try it. Kuper could help Beadles out with run blocking to the right, and Clady and Franklin would be great at run blocking to the left. Franklin would also be a HUGE improvement on up the gut runs. If Beadles can't handle RT, we can draft another one or grab a FA next year, but right now Franklin is getting killed by speed edge-rushers and Beadles is getting pushed back into the pocket by bigger, stronger bull-rushing DTs.

Makes no sense to me. :tsk:

Because our offensive coaching staff sucks chrome off of trailer hitches.

Ravage!!!
11-02-2011, 11:30 PM
They aren't going to take the guy they drafted to be the RT and move him to LG 7 games into his first season after working with him to be the RT. It always takes OL and DL a year or so to really get into sync...but makes no sense to just keep moving them around instead of letting him groom their craft where they are at.

Moving around back and forth would be a mistake at this point. Makes no sense to move Franklin.

Tned
11-02-2011, 11:56 PM
Guys... it the QBs responsibility to make the protection adjustments at the LoS while making his pre-snap reads. The coaches can't see the defensive alignments before calling the play. There is always adjustments on every play.. hot-routes that are read to be called/read (by both he QB and WR...which is why they need to be on the same page).


It's also important to note that Fox (maybe Elway, but I'm pretty sure it was Fox) said that Detroit had not blitzed previously, the way they did against the Broncos. The film showed them primarily rushing with the front four, but against the Broncos they blitzed regularly, which is something they didn't have film on and hadn't prepared for.

That's asking a lot for a young QB to recognize and react to something that the coaches didn't expect the team to face.

No question that it's the QBs responsibility, even if young, but let's also look at things honestly, rather than just with the spin to show how inept Tebow is.

This is a VERY young and inexperienced offense, as has been pointed out by Fox and Elway. The veteran of the group is Kuper, in his sixth year, who did a good job against Suh.

After Kuper, you have a handful of offensive starters in their fourth year (Clady, Larsen, Royal & Fells).

The other starters or rotational offensive players (Tebow, Moreno, Ball, Decker, DT, Beadles, Walton, Julius Thomas & Franklin) are rookie or second year players, with the exception of Moreno.

So, you have a young, inexperience QB and a young, inexperienced offensive unit, who until the last few weeks and spent almost no time working together.

nflfan
11-03-2011, 12:24 AM
No, that's Detroit's standard defensive play. Look at the Monday night game in week 5 vs. Chicago. They were continually pressuring Cutler -- who has a similarly abysmal OL -- yet Jay was able to complete 28 of 38. Why? Because the vast majority of those passes were short passes. The majority of his (very few) deep throws were incomplete. Cutler did a better job of getting the ball out, which you would expect from a veteran QB, but still managed to get sacked 3 times, and was hurried and hit tons more than that.

Jay threw only 2 deep balls in the first half and went 1/1. At the same time, he threw 13 short balls and with only 3 incompletions. He had just one first half sack on a third and short.

Tim threw 6 deeps in the first half completing only 1, and threw short just 7 times completing 3 of them and was sacked 3 times, twice on third and long and once on second and 5.

Gee, I wonder why Tim looked like crap...

Great observation. One thing to add to this ... a lot of the passes Cutler completed were not designed as short, quick passes. The pocket would get penetrated as he's ready to step up and throw, and he had to scramble to make those passes ... not designed ine plays at all, and not a lot of QBs can do what he did.

Also, on a few of the deep passes, including one to Hester near the endzone, Cutler threw a perfect deep pass while avoiding getting sacked, that Hester could not come up with.

That's the reason that after the game, Cutler made a public plea that he was hoping the coaching staff would design plays that gave him better protection and allowed him to quickly get rid of the ball.

Definitely agree, proper playcalling will make the OL and QB look better.

After that game, pass protection got better, and so did run blocking.

nevcraw
11-03-2011, 07:37 PM
They aren't going to take the guy they drafted to be the RT and move him to LG 7 games into his first season after working with him to be the RT. It always takes OL and DL a year or so to really get into sync...but makes no sense to just keep moving them around instead of letting him groom their craft where they are at.

Moving around back and forth would be a mistake at this point. Makes no sense to move Franklin.

or Tebow.

hamrob
11-03-2011, 08:11 PM
Lots of issues developed during the Detroit Game:

Tebow was tested and failed
The Oline was schooled
The coaches did little to help their young QB succeed during only his 5th NFL start
The Defense collapsed
The WR's provided little help and hardly ever got open despite 1 on 1 coverage
The RB's did not pick up the blitz

Despite all of this. The broncos gave up 28 points with 4 plays. Fumble returned for a TD, INT returned for a TD, 2 deep receiving TD's to the Lions (Champ beat, blown coverage by Dawkins).

If Denver can cut out the big play mistakes, provide a short pass first game plan for Tebow where his WR's break off routes and actually help him...then, I think we have a chance in Oakland.

If you go back and watch that game (painful), you'll see that Decker, Thomas and Royal were hardly ever open...and in many cases they were running deep routes, without even looking back towards the QB. Had Denver ran any comebacks towards the middle of the field or the TE delay to the middle...they would have eaten up the Lions 8 man blitz.

Tebow sucked...but, the coaches didn't help him. Take Tebow out of the picture...McCoy and Gase failed pathetically!

Lancane
11-04-2011, 02:50 AM
Lots of issues developed during the Detroit Game:


Tebow was tested and failed

No argument here, he looked like a lost high school quarterback out there.


The Oline was schooled

This is untrue, the average time for a quarterback to hold on to the ball is about five seconds at most, Tebow was holding on to the ball for seven, eight even nine seconds at a time. It's hard for an offensive line to hold off defenders let alone maintain energy when your quarterback is drawing plays out and expecting them to do twice the work, it's a good way to cause the line to undergo injuries.


The coaches did little to help their young QB succeed during only his 5th NFL start

Also untrue, they've dumbed down this offense and included more collegiate spread plays, to think they should have to do more is offensive to those quarterbacks who've earned a place in this league by having to adapt.


The Defense collapsed

Wouldn't you have collapsed as well if you were on the field for most of the game because the offense stalled, in particularly the quarterback?


The WR's provided little help and hardly ever got open despite 1 on 1 coverage

Another false statement, I've re-watched the last two games to the point I thought I broke my DVR. Tebow had receiving options open on several plays where he didn't check down, locked on to a target and simply played off how that one receiver was covered. On other plays he looked to have checked down but threw into questionable coverage. Not to mention it's hard to catch a ball that's five yards above your head, under thrown off the edge by a good three feet or coming in at your ankles!


The RB's did not pick up the blitz

I saw Moreno and Ball pick up a couple, but for the most part they were treated like nothing more then rag dolls.


Despite all of this. The broncos gave up 28 points with 4 plays. Fumble returned for a TD, INT returned for a TD, 2 deep receiving TD's to the Lions (Champ beat, blown coverage by Dawkins).

The Dawkins blown coverage was really a amateurish mistake, as to the rest...the blame rests at Tebow's feet.


If Denver can cut out the big play mistakes, provide a short pass first game plan for Tebow where his WR's break off routes and actually help him...then, I think we have a chance in Oakland.

One thing about the Erhardt-Perkins is that while at it's core it's a smashmouth varied spread offense, which relies on the run...it also relies on the short passing game as much as the big passing plays. Tebow screwed the pooch, it's not like they didn't give him any short intermediate passing plays, he just couldn't complete what are very mundane everyday NFL throws. That's not the offenses fault, it's all on him.


If you go back and watch that game (painful), you'll see that Decker, Thomas and Royal were hardly ever open...and in many cases they were running deep routes, without even looking back towards the QB. Had Denver ran any comebacks towards the middle of the field or the TE delay to the middle...they would have eaten up the Lions 8 man blitz.

I've watched it, there was plenty of space to throw catchable passes to the receiver off the back shoulder or where the separation was a good and he had a window of three or four feet. If he needs an uncovered receiver with an absolute window then they're in even deeper shit.


Tebow sucked...but, the coaches didn't help him. Take Tebow out of the picture...McCoy and Gase failed pathetically!

What do you want the coaches to do? Completely instill the Meyer spread option offense, a gimmick offense that would probably work only twenty-five or thirty percent of the time? That's a lot of losses. The Erhardt-Perkins, like the Martz Spread, Air-Erhardt, Weiss Spread and Pistol offense are all quarterback friendly, the Erhardt based offenses more so then the others. He can not even run the most quarterback friendly of offenses with collegiate spread plays added in simply for him. I might think McCoy is an idiot, but dear god...a quarterback of even mediocre caliber could have done better.

Tned
11-04-2011, 07:47 AM
This is untrue, the average time for a quarterback to hold on to the ball is about five seconds at most, Tebow was holding on to the ball for seven, eight even nine seconds at a time. It's hard for an offensive line to hold off defenders let alone maintain energy when your quarterback is drawing plays out and expecting them to do twice the work, it's a good way to cause the line to undergo injuries.


Cane, this is the stuff that is just driving me bat-shit crazy in this debate. I know you don't mean to spew a total lie, and you really believe it, but it doesn't change the fact that what you are saying is completely false.

You, and some others, are posting emotion-clouded opinions as facts, and in many cases, like this one, they aren't even close to accurate.

Ok, I felt pretty confident that you were way off on your claim that it wasn't that the o-line was schooled, but instead that Tebow simply holds the ball well beyond the 5 second window he's allowed.

So, I went to the tape, rather than just respond with my "gut."

Here are the seven sacks against Miami:

1st half
Sack one (Fumble, recovered by Tebow) -- 2.3 seconds
Sack two -- 2.7 seconds
Sack three -- 2.9 seconds

2nd half
Sack four fumble/TD return -- 2.3 seconds
Sack five -- 3.5 seconds
Sack six -- 7.8 seconds - (coverage sack) At three second mark, two WR's covered by six defenders (see pic below) -- During the next 4.8 seconds, Tebow moves in pocket, but against six defenders, WR's never get open.
Sack seven -- 2.4 seconds


http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/tebow_detroit_sixth_sack.JPG

Lancane
11-04-2011, 11:38 AM
Cane, this is the stuff that is just driving me bat-shit crazy in this debate. I know you don't mean to spew a total lie, and you really believe it, but it doesn't change the fact that what you are saying is completely false.

You, and some others, are posting emotion-clouded opinions as facts, and in many cases, like this one, they aren't even close to accurate.

Ok, I felt pretty confident that you were way off on your claim that it wasn't that the o-line was schooled, but instead that Tebow simply holds the ball well beyond the 5 second window he's allowed.

So, I went to the tape, rather than just respond with my "gut."

My bad, so he was getting hit quicker then I believed.

Sorry Ham and T, I was wrong, I can admit it...I guess it felt longer. Did you account for quarterback pressures? Just wondering if it's about the same.

NightTerror218
11-04-2011, 01:27 PM
My bad, so he was getting hit quicker then I believed.

Sorry Ham and T, I was wrong, I can admit it...I guess it felt longer. Did you account for quarterback pressures? Just wondering if it's about the same.

Dont worry the team is so bad its like watching all the cr*p in slow motion.

Cugel
11-04-2011, 01:53 PM
The ONLY reason teams are stacking the line and constantly bringing the pressure, is BECAUSE they know TT can't complete a pass.

Doesn't take a genius to read whats said by the other teams.

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100% accurate! Look, Elway is being polite and not throwing his starting QB under a bus! What should he have said? The truth?


Elway under truth serum: "Tim just struggles to hit a high enough percentage of his passes, and after watching this for 11 months now Brian and I have come to the conclusion that he's just not the answer going forward for the Broncos organization. That's why we're touring around the west coast looking in on a Stanford practice and visiting later in the week to USC to watch Barkley. We're looking to draft a QB for next season and baring a miracle I don't see Tim in a Denver Broncos uniform next year. We've already paid him virtually everything we have to pay him so from a financial standpoint, it won't be that tough to sever ties to Tim. Meanwhile it's up to Fox how many more games he starts this season. But, we understand this is a multi-year rebuilding process and we're more concerned with evaluating the other players on our roster and seeing who we have going forward for next year." -- John Elway

dogfish
11-04-2011, 03:27 PM
hey cug, is that belly-up gator supposed to represent tebow?

:laugh:

rcsodak
11-04-2011, 03:40 PM
Was prolly "tebowing" on a 2lane highway and got rolled.

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Lancane
11-04-2011, 05:59 PM
hey cug, is that belly-up gator supposed to represent tebow?

:laugh:

That's an armadillo! :lol:

dogfish
11-04-2011, 06:06 PM
That's an armadillo! :lol:

yea, i realized that after taking a closer look. . . :fear:

Lancane
11-04-2011, 06:16 PM
yea, i realized that after taking a closer look. . . :fear:

Funny creatures armadillos, it's like they want to get ran over...almost like they could file a lawsuit but never survive the accident!

:laugh:

Tned
11-04-2011, 07:07 PM
My bad, so he was getting hit quicker then I believed.

Sorry Ham and T, I was wrong, I can admit it...I guess it felt longer. Did you account for quarterback pressures? Just wondering if it's about the same.

I know it wasn't intentional. It's just the frustrating thing about this debate -- most people are so entrenched in their Tebow position that they tend to see the bad worse than it really is or the good better than it really is. It's the reason I keep going back to review the game video and stuff, because I can't trust my own recollection either.

I only had a short period of time this morning to review it and only looked at/timed the seven sacks.

Lancane
11-04-2011, 07:13 PM
I know it wasn't intentional. It's just the frustrating thing about this debate -- most people are so entrenched in their Tebow position that they tend to see the bad worse than it really is or the good better than it really is. It's the reason I keep going back to review the game video and stuff, because I can't trust my own recollection either.

I only had a short period of time this morning to review it and only looked at/timed the seven sacks.

Sorry again...

If you get the chance T, I would be interested in if there was a difference during quarterback pressures, whether it was about the same and so forth.

Not that it really matters, I think the Tebow thing is about to come to a head, but it would still be good to know if he was holding the ball for too long besides on sacks or what his average for holding onto the ball was.

thanks.

Tned
11-04-2011, 07:19 PM
Sorry again...

If you get the chance T, I would be interested in if there was a difference during quarterback pressures, whether it was about the same and so forth.

Not that it really matters, I think the Tebow thing is about to come to a head, but it would still be good to know if he was holding the ball for too long besides on sacks or what his average for holding onto the ball was.

thanks.


I'll do some spot checking tomorrow, because that will take some time to chart. Maybe a few series. I'm also thinking of taken a look at some other QB's like Brady and others that had multiple sacks this past Sunday. Or, maybe some other Detroit games.

MOtorboat
11-04-2011, 07:41 PM
Here's the thing. He'd be afforded a lot more time if he wasn't rushed with such exotic schemes.

But why is he rushed by those exotic schemes (no matter how many rushers are in said scheme)? Because he can't complete basic throws.

So, on the surface, it might be easy to pin it on the offensive line when looking at those specific sack plays. But, why was Tebow in that position? Because he can't complete basic throws that would thwart those defensive schemes. The Broncos can't keep anyone on their toes until he can begin to complete passes and read defenses pre-snap.

It's a chicken or egg argument, and its truly unwinnable. The only solution, IN MY OPINION, is that he has to complete passes, preceded by reading pre-snap reads better and being able to make pre-snap adjustments.

T, I know you went back and added shotgon/not shotgun, if you go back and look at it again, can you add formations?

I ask, because I wonder if the sacks came when the Broncos tried to spread it out, as so many have asked the team to do.

Tned
11-04-2011, 07:49 PM
Here's the thing. He'd be afforded a lot more time if he wasn't rushed with such exotic schemes.

But why is he rushed by those exotic schemes (no matter how many rushers are in said scheme)? Because he can't complete basic throws.

So, on the surface, it might be easy to pin it on the offensive line when looking at those specific sack plays. But, why was Tebow in that position? Because he can't complete basic throws that would thwart those defensive schemes. The Broncos can't keep anyone on their toes until he can begin to complete passes and read defenses pre-snap.

It's a chicken or egg argument, and its truly unwinnable. The only solution, IN MY OPINION, is that he has to complete passes, preceded by reading pre-snap reads better and being able to make pre-snap adjustments.

T, I know you went back and added shotgon/not shotgun, if you go back and look at it again, can you add formations?

I ask, because I wonder if the sacks came when the Broncos tried to spread it out, as so many have asked the team to do.

I agree 100% that the reason Miami and Detroit threw pass rushes at him that the team hadn't seen on film is on large part because Tebow isn't completing throws. So, while I have done issues with the part calling, I have been saying all along that as an NFL QB, Tebow had to make the throws.


I'll take a look at the formations and some other stuff tomorrow. My buddy and I were talking this morning about how spreading things out with three or four wide, rather than running shotgun with two tight ends, could give Tebow a better chance of making teams pay for the blitz, whether with the pass or him running.

NightTerror218
11-04-2011, 07:53 PM
I agree 100% that the reason Miami and Detroit threw pass rushes at him that the team hadn't seen on film is on large part because Tebow isn't completing throws. So, while I have done issues with the part calling, I have been saying all along that as an NFL QB, Tebow had to make the throws.


I'll take a look at the formations and some other stuff tomorrow. My buddy and I were talking this morning about how spreading things out with three or four wide, rather than running shotgun with two tight ends, could give Tebow a better chance of making teams pay for the blitz, whether with the pass or him running.

Tned they need to do some quick slants and screens. To get ball out quicker. I have not seen any of these. Which could be play calling or audibles not called. Either way havent see any. Screen pass like to Moreno against SD could be very affective against 8 in the box.

MOtorboat
11-04-2011, 07:57 PM
Tned they need to do some quick slants and screens. To get ball out quicker. I have not seen any of these. Which could be play calling or audibles not called. Either way havent see any. Screen pass like to Moreno against SD could be very affective against 8 in the box.

I will agree on the screens.

However, on a third and mid-distance, they tried a slant, not a quick slant, but a slant, and Decker had two steps on the defender with no safety deep. Tebow threw it at the knees of the defender.

I remember two other quick passes, and overthrow and a completed quick out. And the pick 6 was on a quick out, hook combo that was very badly thrown.

The screens I think need to be tried, but he's not consistently hitting the short passes enough to try them more, either.