Shotgun stats say Broncos molding offense specifically for Tebow

[Denver Native (Carol)]

For some reason, I get a lot of e-mails, hear some talk show chatter, and get questions from friends that wonder if Broncos bosses John Elway and John Fox are purposely setting up Tim Tebow to fail.

It started with the trade of No. 1 receiver Brandon Lloyd, so the “conspiracy theory” does have a seed, I suppose. But like most conspiracy theories, they have spread to lunancy. Like the Broncos’ offensive game plan for instance. The complaints went from too much conservative play-calling in Tebow’s first start at Miami and not enough conservative passing in his second start against the Lions.

Now for statistical documentation:

rest of article - http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2011/11/01/shotgun-stats-say-broncos-molding-offense-specifically-for-tebow/10503/

[Tned]

I've seen the shotgun stats quoted several times today. I would like to point out that just calling shotgun plays and having Tebow run between the tackles, isn't creating an offense to his strengths.

Something more along the lines of the Shanny/Kubiak offense used with Jake would be closer to what he should be in. The goal should be to use the solid run game to get the defense flowing in one direction and let Tebow get out of the pocket on designed roll outs.

As he's developing, try and reduce his reads to one half of the field, give him short options with things likeTE drags, with a deeper WR on a crossing pattern or come back, so he has a run/short pass/long pass option on the roll outs.

If a team wanted to develop a game plan to capitalize on his strengths, while protecting the areas where he is weak, they could do so. However, Fox and McCoy either don't want to or don't have the creativity to do so.

[Medford Bronco]

I've seen the shotgun stats quoted several times today. I would like to point out that just calling shotgun plays and having Tebow run between the tackles, isn't creating an offense to his strengths.

Something more along the lines of the Shanny/Kubiak offense used with Jake would be closer to what he should be in. The goal should be to use the solid run game to get the defense flowing in one direction and let Tebow get out of the pocket on designed roll outs.

As he's developing, try and reduce his reads to one half of the field, give him short options with things likeTE drags, with a deeper WR on a crossing pattern or come back, so he has a run/short pass/long pass option on the roll outs.

If a team wanted to develop a game plan to capitalize on his strengths, while protecting the areas where he is weak, they could do so. However, Fox and McCoy either don't want to or don't have the creativity to do so.

You mean running it on 1st down 9 out of 10 times is for tebow:lol:

that 1945 playbook is great for him :laugh: Only 1 read and run if the play breaks down after handing off on 1st and 2nd down :clap:

[jlarsiii]

You can add this snippet also:

Fox Sports reporter and NFL Network contributor Jay Glazer also appeared on the podcast and called Tebow "a running back who can throw, not a running quarterback." Glazer also said the Broncos revamped their entire offense last week to a more college-style offense disguised as a pro-style offense to fit Tebow's strengths.

That from an article on nfl.com: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d823b007d/article/king-tebow-wont-be-broncos-starter-by-jets-game?module=HP11_headline_stack

[Lancane]

They can change it all they want, but until Tebow stops throwing balls that lack any spin five feet above or behind receivers not to mention at their ankles, it won't mean a damn thing.

You tell Tebow to thread the ball, he thinks it means it's laces!

[Medford Bronco]

They can change it all they want, but until Tebow stops throwing balls that lack any spin five feet above or behind receivers not to mention at their ankles, it won't mean a damn thing.

You tell Tebow to thread the ball, he thinks it means it's laces!

This is what he thinks, thread ball http://www.thetreat.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/red_thread.jpg

[NameUsedBefore]

Formation != Scheme. I wish I got paid to be produce illogical statements all the time.

The only part of the game that looked remotely like something he would have run in college was the first drive.

"It's All Over Fatman" had a good analysis of last Sunday's game. (http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/when-the-circus-leaves-town-whats-left)

[Tned]

Formation != Scheme. I wish I got paid to be produce illogical statements all the time.

The only part of the game that looked remotely like something he would have run in college was the first drive.

"It's All Over Fatman" had a good analysis of last Sunday's game. (http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/when-the-circus-leaves-town-whats-left)

Yep, there is a difference. I'm getting so sick of all the media, Tweets or whoever that says, "hey, look at all the Shotgun, they change the offense to fit Tebow..."

[Lancane]

Formation != Scheme. I wish I got paid to be produce illogical statements all the time.

The only part of the game that looked remotely like something he would have run in college was the first drive.

"It's All Over Fatman" had a good analysis of last Sunday's game. (http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/when-the-circus-leaves-town-whats-left)

Well, let's be fair...a lot of people seem to believe that the shotgun is a representation of the spread and are hardly corrected by their betters on the subject. And though the shotgun is a formation, only three teams have ever created an offensive scheme built around the shotgun formation, the first was in the 30's, I believe it was Philadelphia, another team did it in the 60's which I know was San Fran and Landry did it in Dallas in the 70's, but eventually such offenses fluttered and began to struggle because they were so limited.

As to your other comment, the offense sucks enough to look like it's collegiate based, but the only time I can say for sure that we've used a collegiate offensive scheme was last season in our final game against San Diego, the offense that day looked near identical to the Urban Meyer's Spread Option, and it sucked for the most part.

And are there any among us on here that believe McCoy is smart enough to devise his own offensive system?

[hotcarl]

they seem to employ a gay scheme

[Denver Native (Carol)]

There is some feeling in the public domain the Broncos need to make their playbook more Tim Tebow​ friendly.

But the Broncos have already catered almost all of what they've done over the past two weeks to trying to take advantage of Tebow's comfort level playing out of the shotgun, rather than under center.

Two items from the Broncos' 45-10 loss Sunday are the biggest evidence of that. The first was the appearance of a no running back formation - something the Packers have used with great success with Aaron Rodgers and his 70 percent completion rate.

rest of article - http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_19232843

[rcsodak]

I've seen the shotgun stats quoted several times today. I would like to point out that just calling shotgun plays and having Tebow run between the tackles, isn't creating an offense to his strengths.

Something more along the lines of the Shanny/Kubiak offense used with Jake would be closer to what he should be in. The goal should be to use the solid run game to get the defense flowing in one direction and let Tebow get out of the pocket on designed roll outs.

As he's developing, try and reduce his reads to one half of the field, give him short options with things likeTE drags, with a deeper WR on a crossing pattern or come back, so he has a run/short pass/long pass option on the roll outs.

If a team wanted to develop a game plan to capitalize on his strengths, while protecting the areas where he is weak, they could do so. However, Fox and McCoy either don't want to or don't have the creativity to do so.
Except TT only rolls to his left. And teams have been playing to keep him in the pocket. Plus, he still needs to figure out the nuances of that tricky forward pass thingy.

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[MOtorboat]

I will continue to maintain my opinion that Tebow will not thrive in a pro spread.

And, I will also continue to believe that McCoy needs to go watch film of Gary Kubiak's offenses from Plummer to Schaub. They have to move the pocket and cut the field in half, and give simple route combinations with simple reads.

With moving the pocket, you have three routes on one half of the field and essentially one or two reads to make before making the throw. You consistently have the fullback or trailing tight end, the primary tight end route and the wide receiver in a "levels" combination, where there isn't a lot of looking off safeties or reading which way the linebacker is running.

It also utilizes the run/pass element by reading the backside defensive end and the backside linebacker, something we know Tebow can do. It's the closest to a "read" play that works in the NFL.

That said, Tebow has to read defenses pre snap, get rid of the football and complete passes. Thus far he has been atrocious.

[rcsodak]

Fox is a run 1st HC. Pretty sure everybody knew this going in. Also pretty sure everybody was onboard to getting back to "Bronco Football", and the zbs.
The problem, though, is you lose 90% of your running plays from the shotgun.

Time to fish or cutbait.

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[MOtorboat]

Except TT only rolls to his left. And teams have been playing to keep him in the pocket. Plus, he still needs to figure out the nuances of that tricky forward pass thingy.

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Your first sentence is BS. He's rolled both right and left on scrambles. The problem is, McCoy hasn't called hardly any planned rollouts.

[Lancane]

Except TT only rolls to his left. And teams have been playing to keep him in the pocket. Plus, he still needs to figure out the nuances of that tricky forward pass thingy.

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Tebow - "You want me to throw the ball where?"

McCoy - "Between the two defenders, the gap, the bloody gap...the g'damn hole between the cornerback and safety where the receiver will be!"

Tebow - "That sounds dirty, I'm not allowed to stick it in before marriage!"

McCoy - "Throw the ball straight for a change...s-p-i-r-a-l, you got it?"

Tebow - "How was that?"

McCoy - "Just F'n great, I'm sure the ball boy loved receiving a pass from you...but we're going to lose our jobs."

Tebow - "I won't, I have a lot of fans!"

McCoy - "Dummy, it won't matter if you can hit the broad side of a barn!"

Tebow - "Why would I want to hit a barn!"

McCoy - "Nevermind... Just try and throw it that way to someone wearing the same jersey, okay?"

Tebow - "Like that?"

McCoy - "No dumbass that was the cornerback, see the silver helmet, it looks different then yours doesn't it?"

Tebow - "Same shape!"

McCoy - "That's it I'm done...I hope they fire my ass quickly!"

:lol:

[tomjonesrocks]

As much as Tebow has simply shown he's not on an NFL par as a passer--if EFX actually WANTED to set up Tebow to fail they did a pretty good job.

Losing Lloyd was pretty devastating (mockable, really) but they exacerbated things even more by seemingly never giving Tebow a nice screen pass to throw. The Broncos don't have a quality TE to bail Tebow out--but it's funny that they seemingly had almost nothing but slow-developing WR routes in the playbook.

I doubt a logical playbook would have helped that much--Tebow just doesn't seem to be an NFL passer--but a reasonable offensive playcall on the day might have resulted in fewer sacks at least...

[Npba900]

They can change it all they want, but until Tebow stops throwing balls that lack any spin five feet above or behind receivers not to mention at their ankles, it won't mean a damn thing.

You tell Tebow to thread the ball, he thinks it means it's laces!

Tebow's foot work isn't consistent enough to be successful on roll-outs nor can he pass consistent enough in the roll out scenario.

Another point to consider, teams can assign a spy on Tebow and take the roll-out away from him as well.

In the end if teams scheme effectively against Tebow, they will expose the limiting factors Tebow brings to the QB position at the NFL level.

[Npba900]

Tebow - "You want me to throw the ball where?"

McCoy - "Between the two defenders, the gap, the bloody gap...the g'damn hole between the cornerback and safety where the receiver will be!"

Tebow - "That sounds dirty, I'm not allowed to stick it in before marriage!"

McCoy - "Throw the ball straight for a change...s-p-i-r-a-l, you got it?"

Tebow - "How was that?"

McCoy - "Just F'n great, I'm sure the ball boy loved receiving a pass from you...but we're going to lose our jobs."

Tebow - "I won't, I have a lot of fans!"

McCoy - "Dummy, it won't matter if you can hit the broad side of a barn!"

Tebow - "Why would I want to hit a barn!"

McCoy - "Nevermind... Just try and throw it that way to someone wearing the same jersey, okay?"

Tebow - "Like that?"

McCoy - "No dumbass that was the cornerback, see the silver helmet, it looks different then yours doesn't it?"

Tebow - "Same shape!"

McCoy - "That's it I'm done...I hope they fire my ass quickly!"

:lol:

:laugh: :laugh: This is freaking priceless!!:lol:

[Krugan]

Im not a Tebow fan, nor have anything invested in him, but I wish this team would just come to him and say, just go play, stop pressing and have fun.

After watching the end of last season, and this years bunch of crap, there is a difference in play.

Just seems that maybe the pressure of having a failure on his hands is abit much. And im pretty sure that we can all agree our hopes of doing anything, beyond picking top 5 to 10, is in the crapper at this point.

Name the kid starter for the year( we suck at an extreme level) and just play to play.

Its a given we are going to have to go in a different direction next year, there are no above average QBs here.

[arapaho2]

I've seen the shotgun stats quoted several times today. I would like to point out that just calling shotgun plays and having Tebow run between the tackles, isn't creating an offense to his strengths.

Something more along the lines of the Shanny/Kubiak offense used with Jake would be closer to what he should be in. The goal should be to use the solid run game to get the defense flowing in one direction and let Tebow get out of the pocket on designed roll outs.

As he's developing, try and reduce his reads to one half of the field, give him short options with things likeTE drags, with a deeper WR on a crossing pattern or come back, so he has a run/short pass/long pass option on the roll outs.

If a team wanted to develop a game plan to capitalize on his strengths, while protecting the areas where he is weak, they could do so. However, Fox and McCoy either don't want to or don't have the creativity to do so.


exactly what i been saying...just because its the shotgun dont mean we are not running go routes and slow developing routes alot

i showed earlier that with orton around 73% of his attempts were within ten yards...only 25% for tebow....now we can say orton is going through his progression faster ...some truth no doubt...but the best way to get tim into a game is the quick passes...which are the typically the attempts within yen yards...we just are not doing that...and when your going up against one of the fiercest dlines in the game you should

i believe that had orton played in the exact same shotgun oriented scheme and game plan he would have been sack nearly as much as tebow

[vandammage13]

IIRC...we were running the shotgun very heavily even with Orton, so I don't see a big difference there.

We were probably passing more the last two weeks because we were losing most of both those games, so the numbers are probably a little skewed there.

[jlarsiii]

I've seen the shotgun stats quoted several times today. I would like to point out that just calling shotgun plays and having Tebow run between the tackles, isn't creating an offense to his strengths.

I disagree. Putting Tebow in the shotgun and letting him run ARE his strengths. He has trouble taking snaps and performing any type of drop and any type of read of the defense. He clearly can't throw the ball. He can run pretty well (his only translatable NFL skill at the moment...hello FB).

I don't know what you think his strengths are, but from what I have seen I think they are doing all they can to cater to his "strengths".

I am beginning to believe that calling the dude a project is an insult to the word project...

[Cugel]

I've seen the shotgun stats quoted several times today. I would like to point out that just calling shotgun plays and having Tebow run between the tackles, isn't creating an offense to his strengths.

Something more along the lines of the Shanny/Kubiak offense used with Jake would be closer to what he should be in. The goal should be to use the solid run game to get the defense flowing in one direction and let Tebow get out of the pocket on designed roll outs.

As he's developing, try and reduce his reads to one half of the field, give him short options with things likeTE drags, with a deeper WR on a crossing pattern or come back, so he has a run/short pass/long pass option on the roll outs.

If a team wanted to develop a game plan to capitalize on his strengths, while protecting the areas where he is weak, they could do so. However, Fox and McCoy either don't want to or don't have the creativity to do so.

More B.S. from the Tebow apologists. :ranger:

Reality FM: None of that stuff will work if the defense can stack the box with 8 men and dare Tebow to throw downfield. His problem is not running around and buying time. He does that exceptionally well, even from the pocket. It's that he can't throw accurate passes. Period.

Whether he's in the pocket or out of the pocket he's wildly inaccurate by NFL standards. And those standards are VERY tight because missing a pass by more than 1 foot is likely to lead to an interception a lot of the time. Throw behind the WR and the defender trailing the play can have a chance to catch the ball.

That's why there's such a premium on throwing accurate passes.

And Tebow is inaccurate because his mechanics are all wrong. The Teboners keep arguing that mechanics doesn't matter because Tebow is some kind of special case who can "do things his own way."

Well, we're clearly seeing that just isn't the case and all the faith in the world isn't going to change that. :coffee:

[DenBronx]

Well the thing I didnt understand is we came out last week in the shotgun formation and Tebow drove the team down right away for 3 points (should have been a TD). But then as soon as Det scored a quick TD the Broncos went right back to the I-Formation where Tebow began to struggle.

Why dont we just let him stay in the hurry up/shotgun formation most of the game?

[Cugel]

exactly what i been saying...just because its the shotgun dont mean we are not running go routes and slow developing routes alot

i showed earlier that with orton around 73% of his attempts were within ten yards...only 25% for tebow....now we can say orton is going through his progression faster ...some truth no doubt...but the best way to get tim into a game is the quick passes...which are the typically the attempts within yen yards...we just are not doing that...and when your going up against one of the fiercest dlines in the game you should

i believe that had orton played in the exact same shotgun oriented scheme and game plan he would have been sack nearly as much as tebow

This is just all wrong.

The reason they are trying to throw downfield more with Tebow is that defenses are stacking 8 men in the box, conceding single coverage on all the WRs downfield and DARING Tebow to throw an accurate pass to beat them.

The defense was DESIGNED to concede the deep ball down the field. They didn't ever do that with Orton because they know he can hit that open WR.

Do you think Orton would have ever missed Eric Decker running wide open by 10 yards down the middle of the field? The question is moot because the defense would never have given him that opportunity.

Tebow's had WRs break WIDE OPEN in the both of the last 2 games and he hasn't been able to hit his throws. You just can't do that in the NFL.

The reason Orton threw a lot of short balls was that defenses were defending him differently.

[Ravage!!!]

We can't keep blaming the play calling. Its silly. THe play of Tebow is whats limiting the play calling, because his limits absolutely dictate what can and cannot be called..... its it takes AWAY a lot.

People keep saying we need to change the offense to fit Tebow. Draft players and build the offense around his strengths. Not until he can actually PROVE he even deserves to be playing. Right now, he hasn't. We can't change the offense to fit a player that can't do the MOST BASIC things that most NFL QBs are taught while in college.

He has none of the basics, and none of the mechanics that you need. Teams are so much more aware of his weaknesses. The OL can NOT block 8-9 man fronts. No OL can. Tim can't beat it, doesn't know what to do with it, and is completely dumbfounded.

Shotgun is where he is comfortable, but that just gives him a little more time to see the rush coming. That spin move to his backside won't work much anymore as DEs will be aiming for that point knowing he's going to spin, and its not going to be pretty. Its going to look painful.

[Northman]

We can't keep blaming the play calling. Its silly. THe play of Tebow is whats limiting the play calling, because his limits absolutely dictate what can and cannot be called..... its it takes AWAY a lot.

People keep saying we need to change the offense to fit Tebow. Draft players and build the offense around his strengths. Not until he can actually PROVE he even deserves to be playing. Right now, he hasn't. We can't change the offense to fit a player that can't do the MOST BASIC things that most NFL QBs are taught while in college.

He has none of the basics, and none of the mechanics that you need. Teams are so much more aware of his weaknesses. The OL can NOT block 8-9 man fronts. No OL can. Tim can't beat it, doesn't know what to do with it, and is completely dumbfounded.

Shotgun is where he is comfortable, but that just gives him a little more time to see the rush coming. That spin move to his backside won't work much anymore as DEs will be aiming for that point knowing he's going to spin, and its not going to be pretty. Its going to look painful.


Yea, this is the square peg/round hole senario.

When you look at last week's game on the first drive Tebow looked really good. He was standing in the pocket making some solid throws. He just barely missed on the pass to Decker for the TD.

But then he started missing on passes (at which point i think he was 2/8) and it may have been that McCoy started losing faith in Tebow early and started to change the gameplan because Detroit starting scoring at will on the defense. If Tebow is too succeed he will need to be consistent at making the passes AND stretching the field with those passes. When he's able to do that McCoy should be able to give him more leash and open up the book more to him.

But right now all he is left with is the running ability with Tebow which ONLY works best when your able to pass the ball first. Look at what Newton is doing in Carolina. He passes the ball very well and yet still puts up some rushing numbers to piggyback on that with success.

[DenBronx]

Tebow himself is to blame for half of those sacks. He holds the ball too long and he has trouble going through his reads fast enough. Also he has to wait until the WR is 100% open before he throws it because of the long delay it takes to get it out of his hand.

Poor mechanics really slow the timing down of the game.

But, the Broncos just suck all around. It's not all on TT. Kyle Orton who is supposedly our best QB sucked even worse. If Quinn comes in it will be just as bad and our 6th that we owe Cleveland next year becomes what a 3rd?

Nah, I'd rather us just ride the pine the rest of the year with TT. I know he looked terrible against Det but I have a gut feeling he will get better as the year goes on, it's just going to take ALOT of time and growing pains.

[TXBRONC]

This is what he thinks, thread ball http://www.thetreat.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/red_thread.jpg

Do you not know the difference between yarn and thread? :tsk:

J/K:D

[Lancane]

Do you not know the difference between yarn and thread? :tsk:

J/K:D

The real question is, does Tebow? :lol:

[TT15Superman]

IIRC...we were running the shotgun very heavily even with Orton, so I don't see a big difference there.

We were probably passing more the last two weeks because we were losing most of both those games, so the numbers are probably a little skewed there.^ THIS ^

It's not rocket science people. We go to mostly shotgun since we are behind.

[Tned]

More B.S. from the Tebow apologists. :ranger:

Are you even capable of posting without being rude and antagonistic? Maybe you should request a namechange to Cujo, it would fit your posting habits.

As to Tebow apologists, you're full of it. I'm not apologizing for Tebow, I have said he has played like crap. I have said that the odds of him being the long term starter or not good.

However, you have to know nothing about football or simply want to bash him (see yourself on the latter) to claim that simply using shotgun formations and running QB draws is changing the offensive game plan to his strengths.