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Northman
10-31-2011, 11:05 PM
http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/10/31/is-tebow-the-worst-starting-quarterback-in-the-nfl/?module=HP11_hot_topics


“That’s pretty easy: He’s the worst quarterback in the NFL,” Kiszla explained. “He’s totally unprepared to play quarterback. He can’t make basic throws that an NFL quarterback does, and he doesn’t read NFL defenses.”


“I believe that some of the players inside that building know that they don’t have a very good chance to win games with Tim Tebow playing quarterback,” Kiszla said.

BroncoJoe
10-31-2011, 11:12 PM
Aren't they 1-1 with him starting? I know he's sucked ass for two games, but am I the only one who sees this as a complete and total over reaction after two games?

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igoe4broncos
10-31-2011, 11:18 PM
Aren't they 1-1 with him starting? I know he's sucked ass for two games, but am I the only one who sees this as a complete and total over reaction after two games?

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Absolutely it is. Blaine Gabbert went 10 for 30 yesterday for 97 yards against the Texans' defense that Tebow torched last year. Yet, no mention of him, but everyone jumps all over Tebow and overreacts.

Does he deserve some of it? Hell Yes. Does he deserve all of blame? Hell no.

Nomad
10-31-2011, 11:19 PM
Aren't they 1-1 with him starting? I know he's sucked ass for two games, but am I the only one who sees this as a complete and total over reaction after two games?

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I wanted to see him get his 11 games and go from there! He has been terrible but I want to see if he can turn it around and if not, BRONCOS knows what position they are drafting in the first round in 2012. It was the whole point of some here that have already turned on him:lol:! Fickle fans....as claymore would say!

Tned
10-31-2011, 11:27 PM
He's going to have to pick up the pace if he's going to be allowed to start the next 9 games. More than likely, if there isn't significant improvement against Oak & Jets, he'll lose his starting job.

chazoe60
10-31-2011, 11:39 PM
I haven't turned on Tebow completely, but I have lost a lot of faith.

I was at the game yesterday and I'll tell you right now Tebow got very little help. But, he has to play better obviously.


The problem for Tebow is I have no doubt that EFX have no interest in developing him long term. Outside of a miracle improvement I don't think there's anything he can do to convince them not to draft a QB early. That's how I see it anyway.

BroncoTech
10-31-2011, 11:45 PM
I think Fox should declare Tebow the starter for the season, and give him a chance of around 20 games. Anything less isn't a fair evaluation.
Moreno can't run, Franklin can't block, and Royal runs a 2 yard pattern when we need 3.

Detroit really is loaded with talent I think this week was a worse case scenario. I'll see Tebow live next week I got a free skybox pass.

dogfish
10-31-2011, 11:45 PM
He's going to have to pick up the pace if he's going to be allowed to start the next 9 games. More than likely, if there isn't significant improvement against Oak & Jets, he'll lose his starting job.

i hate that, but it wouldn't surprise me. . . i'm not going to get caught up arguing an exact rank, but he's certainly playing as poorly as any QB in the league right now. . . it's really no exaggeration, unfortunately. . .

*shrugs*


when all's said and done, mcdaniels probably screwed tebow also. . . tim seriously looks like a guy that should have been drafted in the third round and sat for three years before playing QB full time. . .

who knows? maybe if he'd gone somewhere like new england, where they know how to develop QBs and there would have been no pressure to play him. . . maybe they could have cleaned him up enough and gotten him mentally ready to play. . .

it's obvious that he's not mentally ready now, and it's pretty disheartening. . . urban meyer and josh mcdaniels both should get punched in the nuts, because it looks like neither of them ever bothered to teach the kid to friggin' play. . . it looks like he's completely clueless what to do from pretty much the second the ball hits his hands. . . dude's been playing football (playing quarterback!) for years, and he looks like the most helpless, panicked deer in the headlights i've ever seen. . .

and it sucks, because his devoted legions will probably force the coaching staff to trade or cut him after the season. . . he'd be a great candidate to keep around since we've already invested the picks, salary and time. . . he'd give you a backup that not only doesn't complain, but works his butt off quietly, trying to get better. . . and he can contribute in your goal line sets in a way that most backup QBs don't. . . there's no reason that we couldn't draft a blue chip QB this year and still continue to develop tebow. . .

except the likelihood that the pain in the ass media and adoring tebowfags will make fox and elway's lives unbearable as long as tim's in denver. . .

Lancane
10-31-2011, 11:51 PM
Absolutely it is. Blaine Gabbert went 10 for 30 yesterday for 97 yards against the Texans' defense that Tebow torched last year. Yet, no mention of him, but everyone jumps all over Tebow and overreacts.

Does he deserve some of it? Hell Yes. Does he deserve all of blame? Hell no.

Blaine Gabbert has struggled, but he's also playing in a system that doesn't really fit his ability nor play to his strengths. I mentioned this earlier...but Tebow would probably succeed in their offense and Gabbert in Denver's, and that it was ironic. But at least Gabbert can make most of the throws and is more pocket capable, whereas Tebow is more fitting to a run orientated option.

I don't think people are overreacting, I really think he's that bad...the problem is that Denver believes in the pocket capable quarterbacks from top to bottom, Bowlen, Elway, Fox and the fans, and that's not Tebow. He needs to go to a team with an offense that is better suited to his style of play, that's the only way he'll succeed at all.

Is it fair that he gets as much guff as he does? Probably not...it's not like he chose to come here. However, the fans are not going to wait two or three years for him to develop into a more pro-style quarterback, nor will the organization.

dogfish
10-31-2011, 11:52 PM
I haven't turned on Tebow completely, but I have lost a lot of faith.

I was at the game yesterday and I'll tell you right now Tebow got very little help. But, he has to play better obviously.


The problem for Tebow is I have no doubt that EFX have no interest in developing him long term. Outside of a miracle improvement I don't think there's anything he can do to convince them not to draft a QB early. That's how I see it anyway.

elway's already watched hours of film of guys like landry jones, nick foles, matt barkley etc. . . very little question in my mind-- he may have watched film from this weekend before the monday night game. . . :laugh:

like it or hate it, i'm pretty sure they'll be drafting their quarterback this year barring a shocking turnaround from tebow. . . as in, he better start looking like cam newton is looking, because otherwise they're replacing him in the next draft. . .

BroncoStud
11-01-2011, 05:16 AM
He's going to have to pick up the pace if he's going to be allowed to start the next 9 games. More than likely, if there isn't significant improvement against Oak & Jets, he'll lose his starting job.

The thought of Tebow vs Rex Ryan scares the crap out of me.

BroncoNut
11-01-2011, 05:17 AM
at this time he is. sure don't like what I've seen, but not enough time to evaluate. the media is all over this though, blowing it out of proportion in my opinion. We are just a bad football team all around.

claymore
11-01-2011, 06:24 AM
Aren't they 1-1 with him starting? I know he's sucked ass for two games, but am I the only one who sees this as a complete and total over reaction after two games?

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Tebows play has warrented all of the criticisim he has received. He looks terrible.

Hopefully we leave him in though. Id rather lose out, and be united when we draft a QB.

Lancane
11-01-2011, 06:52 AM
Aren't they 1-1 with him starting? I know he's sucked ass for two games, but am I the only one who sees this as a complete and total over reaction after two games?

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I had to think on this for a little while, before I replied Joe. But truth is the more I think on it, the more I realize that it's not an overreaction.

People want to use the argument that it's only Tebow's fifth start, especially in comparison to Andy Dalton, Christian Ponder, Cam Newton, Mike McCoy and Sam Bradford, or that not having an proper off-season hurt him, and a new coaching staff.

Well, alright... Tebow unlike Ponder, Dalton and Newton has had a full season already with a pro coaching staff, no matter the ineptitude of that staff (since most of the same said coaches are still with Denver), unlike Newton, Ponder and Dalton he has played in more pre-season contests, and had a feel for starting at this level before anyone of those three. Now, someone could argue about the playbook, but the offense is pretty much the same (just dumbed down)...now think about that, he's struggling with a playbook that is less difficult then the last, yet much the same and with more experience with that offense then anyone of those three have had. And still Dalton, Newton and Ponder have done better then him? In fact, Bradford and McCoy also have new coordinators (basically) because Shurmur is not only the head coach in Cleveland, he's also the offensive coordinator. So, with everyone one of those he'd be compared with, whom are surpassing him there is really no excuse. I guess someone could argue that our staff is worse, but if they thought about it, then it sounds dumb. The only one who might be doing worse at this time is Blaine Gabbert and I believe it's because the offense doesn't suit him well.

Still, even with all the time and practice, and that's a lot of practice in a very similar system if not identical, he continues to struggle adapting to the NFL, to convert to a more pro-style quarterback. We talk about his work ethic and football intelligence, and at the same time we have to question why the struggling, why the trouble with so much time compared to others?

claymore
11-01-2011, 07:08 AM
I feel bad for Florida Gator fans. They could have had Cam Newton instead. What a kick in the nuts that has to be.

Dirk
11-01-2011, 07:19 AM
Ok yeah Tebow looks bad. We all know that. But comparing him to other QBs on other teams isn't a good or fair comparison. Different teams, different coaching, different lines and receivers.

Let's look at this year here.

Orton - 4 1/2 games as starter.

TDs - 8
INTs - 7
Sack - 9
Fum - 2
Yrds - 979
Rat - 75.7

Tebow - 2 1/2 games, 2 as starter.

TDs - 4
INTs - 1
Sack - 13
Fum - 1
Yrds - 412
Rat - 75.1

Outside of the sacks being greater because defenses know to key on Tebow because of his running ability. He is still doing about the same as Orton was on this team. Albeit that isn't saying anything.

I still think we will be getting a QB in the first next year but they really need to do something about that O-line.

I am not a Tebow fan-boi at all. But I believe he needs time on the field to get better. And the protection from the o-line has to be better since teams are stacking 8 and 9 in the box.

CrazyHorse
11-01-2011, 07:20 AM
I feel bad for Florida Gator fans. They could have had Cam Newton instead. What a kick in the nuts that has to be.

Tebow was arguably a better college QB.

nflfan
11-01-2011, 07:27 AM
Does anyone really respect Kiszla's opinion? Some of his headlines ....

Kiszla: Cutler wasn't such a loss for Broncos after all - basically saying it's easy to replace Cutler; Orton and Cassel are so much better

Kiszla: Playing Tebow gives fans some hope - during late last season, Kiszla implores McDaniels to start Tebow

Kiszla: McD just the scapegoat - yup, McDaniels had nothing to do with the state of the Broncos organization, and any coach was doomed to fail ... nothing to do with trading all your talent away, and making terrible draft picks

Kiszla: 7-point plan for Broncos' John Fox includes benching Tim Tebow

Kiszla: "Tebow Thing" very much alive for Broncos

Kiszla: Come on, Coach Fox, give Tebow a chance - now imploring Fox to start Tebow

Kiszla: Tebow isn't Elway in comebacks, but he has a good start - article praising Tebow's heroics

now .... “That’s pretty easy: He’s the worst quarterback in the NFL,” Kiszla

The guy just flip flops again and again and again. He's just terrible.

If Fox started Tebow because he saw something that said Tebow was ready, then I wouldn't fault him for starting Tebow one more game for a better evaluation. If Fox started Tebow purely because of fan pressure, then he doesn't deserve to be head coach.

claymore
11-01-2011, 07:27 AM
Tebow was arguably a better college QB.

It is an argument that is going to be raised the more Cam performs in the NFL. Tebow was alos in a much more stable environment. Tebow seems to have been a more mature young man though.

MOtorboat
11-01-2011, 07:43 AM
Here's the list of starting quarterbacks Sunday that I would bench in favor of Tebow:

Krugan
11-01-2011, 07:54 AM
Honestly, he is no worse than anyone else on this team that has started at QB.

Im not sure what that says, beyond we all knew what he was when he got here in teh first place. And to expect the guy to be more than he is, is abit unrealistic.

I said it in another thread, but it sure seems patience is pretty easy to type...

for clarification, I think he is worse than pre draft wonderings, but the coaching staff made this switch, and I would hope they ride it out in a lost season anyway.

claymore
11-01-2011, 08:00 AM
Honestly, he is no worse than anyone else on this team that has started at QB.

Im not sure what that says, beyond we all knew what he was when he got here in teh first place. And to expect the guy to be more than he is, is abit unrealistic.

I said it in another thread, but it sure seems patience is pretty easy to type...

for clarification, I think he is worse than pre draft wonderings, but the coaching staff made this switch, and I would hope they ride it out in a lost season anyway.

The coching staff caved to the pressure I think. They had nothing to lose by doing so though.

At least all the fans can collectively say "Ahhh, thats why he didnt start earlier". vs "Start Tebow he's the saviour, you guys dont know QB's".

BroncoStud
11-01-2011, 08:09 AM
I still don't think these guys know QBs... But Tebow isn't a savior either.

Dirk
11-01-2011, 08:11 AM
I think most people wanted him to be the savior and only the Tebowites believed he would be.

Krugan
11-01-2011, 08:13 AM
I think most people wanted him to be the savior and only the Tebowites believed he would be.

This I agree with.

Im not ready to give up entirely, it would be a huge plus to this team if he got it.

There are so many issues here that could be filled while we spend top end picks looking for a QB, its painful to think about.

cuzz4169
11-01-2011, 08:17 AM
Tebow was arguably a better college QB.

No argument about it...Do you ever hear Newtons name being mentioned as being one of the best college football players ever!? What they do in the pros means nothing to what they did in college. If that was the case Tom Brady would be mentioned as best college football player. One great year doesn't make you a great college player.

TXBRONC
11-01-2011, 08:28 AM
Aren't they 1-1 with him starting? I know he's sucked ass for two games, but am I the only one who sees this as a complete and total over reaction after two games?

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How long do you let him go on if he continues to play like he has the past two games? I don't think Tebow make nine more starts if he doesn't show improvement.

BroncoJoe
11-01-2011, 08:32 AM
How long do you let him go on if he continues to play like he has the past two games? I don't think Tebow make nine more starts if he doesn't show improvement.

And there lies the question. Who do they go to? Orton? Quinn? They're not going to bring up Weber.

We're not going anywhere this year. What's the point of playing either of those two QB's who - most likely - won't be here next year?

As fans, we just need to suck it up and ride this experiment out.

Dirk
11-01-2011, 08:35 AM
And there lies the question. Who do they go to? Orton? Quinn? They're not going to bring up Weber.

We're not going anywhere this year. What's the point of playing either of those two QB's who - most likely - won't be here next year?

As fans, we just need to suck it up and ride this experiment out.

I agree Joe. For better or worse, the marriage needs to stay together until the end of the year and then we go from there.

Krugan
11-01-2011, 08:35 AM
How long do you let him go on if he continues to play like he has the past two games? I don't think Tebow make nine more starts if he doesn't show improvement.

You go all the way to the end.

I dont think you can go back to Orton, unless the whole point ot this was to see if Orton would respond and elevate himself. Then do you make an attempt and resign the guy at the end of the year? There cant be motivation to play him, if he isnt going to be resigned.

You dont go to Quinn, simply because playing him could cost you a 3rd round pick in a season where he has no contract and you suck anyway.

The timing of this move is a head scratcher the more its looked at,at least for me. That is, if another switch is made.

claymore
11-01-2011, 08:43 AM
I still don't think these guys know QBs... But Tebow isn't a savior either.

I think Elway does. I also think thats why he had nothing nice to say about Tebow the QB.

His eye is on Luck. I dont blame him, and Im glad they didnt bring in another stop gap loser this year like Simms/Quin/Orton.

IF we get Luck or another early Rd QB I think Elway will get him all the tools/coaching he needs to succeed. His early years being shackled by reeves might pay off for us in the end....

claymore
11-01-2011, 08:44 AM
You go all the way to the end.

I dont think you can go back to Orton, unless the whole point ot this was to see if Orton would respond and elevate himself. Then do you make an attempt and resign the guy at the end of the year? There cant be motivation to play him, if he isnt going to be resigned.

You dont go to Quinn, simply because playing him could cost you a 3rd round pick in a season where he has no contract and you suck anyway.

The timing of this move is a head scratcher the more its looked at,at least for me. That is, if another switch is made.

Hell yeah. We are on the "Tebow decides who is QB next year." Train.

vandammage13
11-01-2011, 08:46 AM
elway's already watched hours of film of guys like landry jones, nick foles, matt barkley etc. . . very little question in my mind-- he may have watched film from this weekend before the monday night game. . . :laugh:

like it or hate it, i'm pretty sure they'll be drafting their quarterback this year barring a shocking turnaround from tebow. . . as in, he better start looking like cam newton is looking, because otherwise they're replacing him in the next draft. . .

If we do draft another QB next year (and I believe we will) I hope people aren't clamoring for his benching and calling him a lost cause after a couple of bad games and a 2-3 start to his career.

claymore
11-01-2011, 08:48 AM
If we do draft another QB next year (and I believe we will) I hope people aren't clamoring for his benching and calling him a lost cause after a couple of bad games and a 2-3 start to his career.

I doubt we will after watching Tebow and Orton for the past 3 years. He would have to be worse than Tebow (not easy) to warrant that type of feeling.

Dirk
11-01-2011, 08:50 AM
If we do draft another QB next year (and I believe we will) I hope people aren't clamoring for his benching and calling him a lost cause after a couple of bad games and a 2-3 start to his career.

Bro....don't be silly. You know it will happen. ;)

CrazyHorse
11-01-2011, 08:51 AM
Here's the list of starting quarterbacks Sunday that I would bench in favor of Tebow:

Here's my list:
Charlie Whitehurst
Blaine Gabbert
Matt Moore
Curtis Painter

vandammage13
11-01-2011, 08:55 AM
Here's my list:
Charlie Whitehurst
Blaine Gabbert
Matt Moore
Curtis Painter

Kyle Orton...

MOtorboat
11-01-2011, 08:59 AM
Here's my list:
Charlie Whitehurst
Blaine Gabbert
Matt Moore
Curtis Painter

I would take Gabbart and Moore over Tebow, and Whitehurst because he has glorious flowing locks.

You got me on Painter.

vandammage13
11-01-2011, 09:00 AM
I doubt we will after watching Tebow and Orton for the past 3 years. He would have to be worse than Tebow (not easy) to warrant that type of feeling.

I think the next QB could do much worse than a 10:4 TD/INT ratio.

Probably would do much better completion % wise, but I think he could also do worse than a 2-3 start on this team as well.

The next QB isn't going to be getting a lot of help out of the gates, and it is very likely that we will go 4-12 or worse again next year with a rookie...He'll get better over time, but it's going to be a rough 1st year for sure.

Just hoping that he is afforded the time that Tebow won't be.

MOtorboat
11-01-2011, 09:01 AM
Kyle Orton...

Orton didn't start on Sunday.

vandammage13
11-01-2011, 09:12 AM
Orton didn't start on Sunday.

My bad...I missed that caveat...


I would take Gabbart and Moore over Tebow, and Whitehurst because he has glorious flowing locks.

You got me on Painter.

I do like Whitehurst's locks...Tebow may be closer to Jesus, but Whitehurst was blessed with his looks.

Npba900
11-01-2011, 09:13 AM
i hate that, but it wouldn't surprise me. . . i'm not going to get caught up arguing an exact rank, but he's certainly playing as poorly as any QB in the league right now. . . it's really no exaggeration, unfortunately. . .

*shrugs*


when all's said and done, mcdaniels probably screwed tebow also. . . tim seriously looks like a guy that should have been drafted in the third round and sat for three years before playing QB full time. . .

who knows? maybe if he'd gone somewhere like new england, where they know how to develop QBs and there would have been no pressure to play him. . . maybe they could have cleaned him up enough and gotten him mentally ready to play. . .

it's obvious that he's not mentally ready now, and it's pretty disheartening. . . urban meyer and josh mcdaniels both should get punched in the nuts, because it looks like neither of them ever bothered to teach the kid to friggin' play. . . it looks like he's completely clueless what to do from pretty much the second the ball hits his hands. . . dude's been playing football (playing quarterback!) for years, and he looks like the most helpless, panicked deer in the headlights i've ever seen. . .

and it sucks, because his devoted legions will probably force the coaching staff to trade or cut him after the season. . . he'd be a great candidate to keep around since we've already invested the picks, salary and time. . . he'd give you a backup that not only doesn't complain, but works his butt off quietly, trying to get better. . . and he can contribute in your goal line sets in a way that most backup QBs don't. . . there's no reason that we couldn't draft a blue chip QB this year and still continue to develop tebow. . .

except the likelihood that the pain in the ass media and adoring tebowfags will make fox and elway's lives unbearable as long as tim's in denver. . .

Tebow would have been much better off had Fox started him in the 2nd half while allowing Orton to start the 1st half. No doubt T2 Fan Rebellion forced Fox to rush Tebow into the starting lineup too soon. Now Tebow is exposed to the entire league just how raw, mechanically and fundamentally he truly is.

Tebow has probably 3 more games to start and if he doesn't show marked improvent-accuracy throwing the bowl, he'll go back to the bench and Orton and Quinn will finish out the season.

The T2 fans must really be embarrashed(sp) right about now.

vandammage13
11-01-2011, 09:15 AM
You go all the way to the end.

I dont think you can go back to Orton, unless the whole point ot this was to see if Orton would respond and elevate himself. Then do you make an attempt and resign the guy at the end of the year? There cant be motivation to play him, if he isnt going to be resigned.

You dont go to Quinn, simply because playing him could cost you a 3rd round pick in a season where he has no contract and you suck anyway.
The timing of this move is a head scratcher the more its looked at,at least for me. That is, if another switch is made.

I wasn't aware of the 3rd round tag on Quinn...What are the conditions for it?

Could be one of the reasons (outside of him sucking) that we don't even see Quinn dressing for the games anymore.

Slick
11-01-2011, 09:26 AM
Tebow is that bad right now. The whole team is bad though. It seems like we have no direction. We don't have any leaders on this team what so ever.

How many starters on this team are guys we can look at and say, we know this guy's going to bring it every Sunday?

We are a terrible football team.

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TXBRONC
11-01-2011, 09:30 AM
And there lies the question. Who do they go to? Orton? Quinn? They're not going to bring up Weber.

We're not going anywhere this year. What's the point of playing either of those two QB's who - most likely - won't be here next year?

As fans, we just need to suck it up and ride this experiment out.

I think they will go to Quinn if Tebow doesn't show any signs of improvement.

I think you have a good point there is nothing to lose by sticking with Tebow I just think Fox will want someone in there that can move the ball.

Mike
11-01-2011, 09:33 AM
I think they will go to Quinn if Tebow doesn't show any signs of improvement.

I think you have a good point there is nothing to lose by sticking with Tebow I just think Fox will want someone in there that can move the ball.

Does anyone know about the BQ trade and if it is true that Denver will have to give up a higher pick if BQ plays a certain amount?

If that is true, then I don't care how bad Tebow is, you can't play Quinn.

BroncoJoe
11-01-2011, 09:35 AM
I'm questioning the Quinn pick for play comments as well. It's pretty unusual that there would be draft implications in the second year. Not out of the question, but very unusual.

BroncoNut
11-01-2011, 09:36 AM
I'm questioning the Quinn pick for play comments as well. It's pretty unusual that there would be draft implications in the second year. Not out of the question, but very unusual.

I don't know about that Joe. I think it could happen

BroncosfanInKC
11-01-2011, 09:39 AM
I get tired of turning on SportsCenter and they only blame Tebow, the whole teams shares a piece of the blame for the losses. Sunday 14 points Tebow gave up for the Lions D, they didn't talk about the blown coverage for scores, or the fact that Megatron was matched up against my boy Chris Harris. Then some media members get upset when their is so much talk about Tebow yet the media as a whole continues to perpetuate the coverage by headlining him so much.

TXBRONC
11-01-2011, 09:42 AM
You go all the way to the end.

I dont think you can go back to Orton, unless the whole point ot this was to see if Orton would respond and elevate himself. Then do you make an attempt and resign the guy at the end of the year? There cant be motivation to play him, if he isnt going to be resigned.

You dont go to Quinn, simply because playing him could cost you a 3rd round pick in a season where he has no contract and you suck anyway.

The timing of this move is a head scratcher the more its looked at,at least for me. That is, if another switch is made.

I don't remember all the details of Quinn's contract other than he would have to get a fairly high percentage of the snaps. If the Tebow experiment goes on a few more weeks Denver wont be in any danger.

Even if they went back to Orton and he raised his game I doubt they would even consider re-signing him.

vandammage13
11-01-2011, 09:47 AM
I get tired of turning on SportsCenter and they only blame Tebow, the whole teams shares a piece of the blame for the losses. Sunday 14 points Tebow gave up for the Lions D, they didn't talk about the blown coverage for scores, or the fact that Megatron was matched up against my boy Chris Harris. Then some media members get upset when their is so much talk about Tebow yet the media as a whole continues to perpetuate the coverage by headlining him so much.

I was listening to Mike and Mike on my way to work yesterday and Greeny was somewhat defending Tebow by outlining the lack of talent around TT....Merril Hoge was on and he was quick to shoot that notion down and laid all of the blame at Tebow's feet of course.

Dirk
11-01-2011, 09:52 AM
I'm questioning the Quinn pick for play comments as well. It's pretty unusual that there would be draft implications in the second year. Not out of the question, but very unusual.

It was a McD deal you know. So we probably have to give a 1st if he starts 1 game. :tsk:

Krugan
11-01-2011, 09:54 AM
I wasn't aware of the 3rd round tag on Quinn...What are the conditions for it?

Could be one of the reasons (outside of him sucking) that we don't even see Quinn dressing for the games anymore.

Its conditional this year, ill try to find the exact numbers. Im not 100% its a 3rd, but anything more for him is to much.

So after 15 minutes of hunting, I cant find the exact details, other than it is conditional for this next draft.

So ill withdraw my 3rd round statement and jsut leave it at anything more for Quinn is to much more.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4995081

That article, only says conditional, but its funny when looking back.

BroncosfanInKC
11-01-2011, 09:59 AM
I was listening to Mike and Mike on my way to work yesterday and Greeny was somewhat defending Tebow by outlining the lack of talent around TT....Merril Hoge was on and he was quick to shoot that notion down and laid all of the blame at Tebow's feet of course.

I also hate how all of the former players who werent that good in the league are so critical (Hodge, Dilfer, Keyshawn, Golic) yet fmr players like Steve Young, Tom Jackson, Chris Carter, John Lynch arent.

Mike
11-01-2011, 10:05 AM
Its conditional this year, ill try to find the exact numbers. Im not 100% its a 3rd, but anything more for him is to much.

So after 15 minutes of hunting, I cant find the exact details, other than it is conditional for this next draft.

So ill withdraw my 3rd round statement and jsut leave it at anything more for Quinn is to much more.

I tried looking and all I got was conditional. Maybe a 6th rounder that moves to a 5th? That is speculation though.

I agree though, anything more is already too much. We need the picks and it ain't worth it to maybe look a little better while still losing. Especially given the possiblity that Quinn just walks next year anyway. Keep in mind I think that Quinn was only a bit about 50% passer his last season in Cleveland.

turftoad
11-01-2011, 10:05 AM
"Total QBR is a quarterback rating that takes into account all of a quarterback's contributions (passing, rushing, sacks, fumbles, penalties) to his team's scoring and winning and summarizes them into one number on a 0-100 scale, on which 50 is average.

Broncos starter Tim Tebow, who had the lowest Total QBR of the week. In fact, Tebow's Total QBR of 3.4 on 59 action plays was the lowest by any QB with at least 50 action plays in a game since 2008".

The rest here: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7171972/nfl-week-8-total-qbr-leaders

On another note from the article is that Stafford had the BESt QBR of the week vs our pourus defense. However, 3.4 out of 100. :tsk: Tebow has the lowest QBR ever. That stat was started in 2008. They also said on Sportcenter that his rating has declined with each and every start going back to last year.

Not good. :tsk:

vandammage13
11-01-2011, 10:11 AM
I also hate how all of the former players who werent that good in the league are so critical (Hodge, Dilfer, Keyshawn, Golic) yet fmr players like Steve Young, Tom Jackson, Chris Carter, John Lynch arent.

I've actually seen Cris Carter be critical and even condescending toward Tebow.

I don't really have any problem with people being critical of TT (or any player on this team for that matter)...His play has warranted criticism. The problem I have is when people are unprofessional about it and take personal shots.

I also get annoyed by the disclaimer a lot of guys use before they criticize Tebow when they say "Tim is a great guy, but..." or "He's the kind of guy I would want my daughter to marry..."

I understand why they do it (to try to minimize being labled a hater), but it is still annoying and I think you should just leave it at football.

BroncosfanInKC
11-01-2011, 10:12 AM
Heres what Boomer Esiason had to say about Tebow. http://eye-on-football.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22475988/33069873?ttag=gen10_on_all_fb_na_txt_0001


He mentions the Lions mocking him and their comments after the game. Funny how an unnamed player says that stuff about another player instead of just manning up and letting the reporter say his name.

BroncosfanInKC
11-01-2011, 10:15 AM
I've actually seen Cris Carter be critical and even condescending toward Tebow.

I don't really have any problem with people being critical of TT (or any player on this team for that matter)...His play has warranted criticism. The problem I have is when people are unprofessional about it and take personal shots.

I also get annoyed by the disclaimer a lot of guys use before they criticize Tebow when they say "Tim is a great guy, but..." or "He's the kind of guy I would want my daughter to marry..."

I understand why they do it (to try to minimize being labled a hater), but it is still annoying and I think you should just leave it at football.



I agree with that statement it doesn't bother me that their critical of any player but It never comes off as just being critical it comes off as you said being unprofessional and taking personal shots. I just don't see the same criticism across the board maybe im just missing that side of it if and when they do.

Dzone
11-01-2011, 10:15 AM
Tebows play has been a gigantic disappointment. I really want to see him succeed, but am not holding my breath. Either way, will always be a Bronco fan. We all have had to lower our expectations of Tebow

jlarsiii
11-01-2011, 10:16 AM
Ok yeah Tebow looks bad. We all know that. But comparing him to other QBs on other teams isn't a good or fair comparison. Different teams, different coaching, different lines and receivers.
Let's look at this year here.
Orton - 4 1/2 games as starter.

TDs - 8
INTs - 7
Sack - 9
Fum - 2
Yrds - 979
Rat - 75.7

Tebow - 2 1/2 games, 2 as starter.

TDs - 4
INTs - 1
Sack - 13
Fum - 1
Yrds - 412
Rat - 75.1

Outside of the sacks being greater because defenses know to key on Tebow because of his running ability. He is still doing about the same as Orton was on this team. Albeit that isn't saying anything.
I still think we will be getting a QB in the first next year but they really need to do something about that O-line.
I am not a Tebow fan-boi at all. But I believe he needs time on the field to get better. And the protection from the o-line has to be better since teams are stacking 8 and 9 in the box.

All kinds of fail in this post. Just in the Detroit game alone Tebow had 3 fumbles. If you are going to post lame comparison stats then at least get them right. Here check the Detroit vs Denver stats for yourself: http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=311030007

Or you could go with QBR like turf did which also demonstrates how bad Teblow has been.

On a side note I find if kind of funny how much blame and hatred Orton got for being a bad QB, but when the table is turned now it is the whole team that really sucks and it isn't just on Tebow. How hypocritical...

silkamilkamonico
11-01-2011, 10:42 AM
Cam Newton never lost in college did he? LMAO at anyone saying Tebow was a better college QB. He will undoubtedly go down as one of the best ever in legacy terms, but the one year Cam played he played better than Tebow did at his best in college.

Dirk
11-01-2011, 11:00 AM
All kinds of fail in this post. Just in the Detroit game alone Tebow had 3 fumbles. If you are going to post lame comparison stats then at least get them right. Here check the Detroit vs Denver stats for yourself: http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=311030007

Or you could go with QBR like turf did which also demonstrates how bad Teblow has been.

On a side note I find if kind of funny how much blame and hatred Orton got for being a bad QB, but when the table is turned now it is the whole team that really sucks and it isn't just on Tebow. How hypocritical...

Know what you are talking about before you jump all up in someone's post.

The fumbles are fumbles that were LOST maybe I should have put that there for you. And yes I got the stats from ESPN.

Tebow is bad....and so is Orton. That is what I was saying. This whole team is bad. It was bad before Tebow started and it still is.

BroncosfanInKC
11-01-2011, 11:00 AM
Cam Newton never lost in college did he? LMAO at anyone saying Tebow was a better college QB. He will undoubtedly go down as one of the best ever in legacy terms, but the one year Cam played he played better than Tebow did at his best in college.


Really?
Cam's one season 66.1% Completion%, 30 Pass TD, 7 INT, 2,854 yards passing, 1,473 rushing yards 20 TD's not to mention he backed up Tim in Florida for two seasons. More rushing attempts

Tim's best season his second 2007 66.9% completion%, 32 Pass TD, 6 INT (most in career), 3286 yards passing 895 rushing yards, 23 touchdowns more passing attempts

These stats are pretty close not to mention both won a Heisman in their first year of starting each game

Fullback32
11-01-2011, 11:02 AM
I can yes, definitively...yes, he is as bad as that. I watched him in college and knew that he was no NFL QB. Even though I am a Texas Longhorns homer, I felt the same way about Vince Young. The two remind me of each other, though I think Vince had better initial technique and fundamentals and of course he is a head case.

Tebow was not, is not and never will be an NFL caliber QB. There are some rookies who can have abysmal rookie seasons, yet you can see they have the fundamentals to be good or even great QBs. Elway, Marino, Aikman...all those guys had the basics in place and experienced normal growing pains. Troy Aikman, in particular, had a horrible rookie season, yet you knew there was something special there. Tebow simply doesn't have that foundation and it's a little late for him to get it. I doubt that the Broncos faithful nor management are going to wait very long for him to come along. There are just too many short-comings. I'm sure he's a nice guy and has charisma and all that, but when fundamental technique is lacking or absent, it's just a bridge too far. You should never have to "teach him how to throw a football."

I know the Broncos have more problems than just the QB, but when you have one that can't read defenses, can't sense a blitz, has terrible footwork and can barely throw a serviceable pass, you have no foundation from which to rebuild this team.

silkamilkamonico
11-01-2011, 11:08 AM
Really?
Cam's one season 66.1% Completion%, 30 Pass TD, 7 INT, 2,854 yards passing, 1,473 rushing yards 20 TD's not to mention he backed up Tim in Florida for two seasons. More rushing attempts

Tim's best season his second 2007 66.9% completion%, 32 Pass TD, 6 INT (most in career), 3286 yards passing 895 rushing yards, 23 touchdowns more passing attempts

These stats are pretty close not to mention both won a Heisman in their first year of starting each game

Really? I'm no math major, but considering Tebow didn't win a CHampionship every season he was there would probably mean he lost a game at some point. Tebow was a great collegiate player and his legacy will go down as arguably one of the all time greats, but Cam Newton was a better college player in the year he was there.

All this is a moot point, considering Cam Newton is probably already 5x's the NFL QB Tebow will ever be.

Lancane
11-01-2011, 11:08 AM
I can yes, definitively...yes, he is as bad as that. I watched him in college and knew that he was no NFL QB. Even though I am a Texas Longhorns homer, I felt the same way about Vince Young. The two remind me of each other, though I think Vince has better inital technique and fundamentals and of course he is a head case.

Tebow was not, is not and never will be an NFL caliber QB. There are some rookies who can have abysmal rookie seasons, yet you can see they have the fundamentals to be good or even great QBs. Elway, Marino, Aikman...all those guys had the basics in place and experienced normal growing pains. Troy Aikman, in particular, had a horrible rookie season, yet you knew there was something special there. Tebow simply doesn't have that foundation and it's a little late for him to get it. I doubt that the Broncos faithful nor management are going to wait very long for him to come along. There are just too many short-comings. I'm sure he's a nice guy and has charisma and all that, but when fundamental technique is lacking or absent, it's jsut a bridge too far. You should never have to "teach him how to throw a football."

I know the Broncos have more problems than just the QB, but when you have one that can't read defenses, can't sense a blitz, has terrible footwork and can barely throw a serviceable pass, you have no foundation from which to rebuild this team.

That is without a doubt one of the best posts by a new poster that I have read in a long time!

:beer:

chazoe60
11-01-2011, 11:15 AM
I gotta disagree with you Silkamilk. Tebow was a better college player with a better college career. But, that doesn't amount to anything in terms of how there pro careers will turnout.

BroncosfanInKC
11-01-2011, 11:28 AM
Really? I'm no math major, but considering Tebow didn't win a CHampionship every season he was there would probably mean he lost a game at some point. Tebow was a great collegiate player and his legacy will go down as arguably one of the all time greats, but Cam Newton was a better college player in the year he was there.

All this is a moot point, considering Cam Newton is probably already 5x's the NFL QB Tebow will ever be.

Cam is a far better QB in the NFL
Tebow has two championships and there is no way if Cam would have stayed longer that you could say he would of never lost a game. You compared Cam to Tebows best in college and thats what I did. Cam had a better team his one season to help him win a championship. Nick Fairley and Micheal Dyer had just as big of an impact on winning the championship game if not bigger than Cam.

T.K.O.
11-01-2011, 11:28 AM
Did anyone consider the idea that Elway & Co. are willing to play Tebow until he has a couple strong games in the hopes they can reel in a decent draft pick from a QB desperate team?
I see it as a definite possibility that within the F.O. they have already decided to draft a guy with the skills they seek,rather than taking on a huge project...so,you put the guy out there hoping he can spark some interest.
So far....not so good.
But, by years end maybe he can improve to the point where a ground & pound team see's him as an asset ?
just a theory:salute:

vandammage13
11-01-2011, 11:43 AM
Did anyone consider the idea that Elway & Co. are willing to play Tebow until he has a couple strong games in the hopes they can reel in a decent draft pick from a QB desperate team?
I see it as a definite possibility that within the F.O. they have already decided to draft a guy with the skills they seek,rather than taking on a huge project...so,you put the guy out there hoping he can spark some interest.
So far....not so good.
But, by years end maybe he can improve to the point where a ground & pound team see's him as an asset ?
just a theory:salute:

I think they tried this strategy with KO as well and it also backfired.

silkamilkamonico
11-01-2011, 11:44 AM
Cam had a better team his one season to help him win a championship.

Than Tebow's? That is simply not true.

Tebow was there from 2006-2009. Since 2003, Florida was the best recruiting college program in the US on a consistent basis year in and year out on average. They have had the best players to come out of high school, more players sent to the NFL, and the best athletes coming out of college. It's probably a huge reason why Tebow's passing numbers at Florida were so incredibly inflated. That's nothing to take away from Tebow at all.

But to say Cam Newton had a better team at Auburn then Tebow did at Florida is not accurate, especially considering the players that were part of the recruiting classes that Newton played with were not even among the better recruiting classes in the SEC, let alone the nation.

vandammage13
11-01-2011, 11:47 AM
Than Tebow's? That is simply not true.

Tebow was there from 2006-2009. Since 2003, Florida was the best recruiting college program in the US on a consistent basis year in and year out on average. They have had the best players to come out of high school, more players sent to the NFL, and the best athletes coming out of college. It's probably a huge reason why Tebow's passing numbers at Florida were so incredibly inflated. That's nothing to take away from Tebow at all.

But to say Cam Newton had a better team at Auburn then Tebow did at Florida is not accurate, especially considering the players that were part of the recruiting classes that Newton played with were not even among the better recruiting classes in the SEC, let alone the nation.

Tebow definitely had more talent around him at UF than did Cam that 1 year at Auburn....

But the fact that Cam was Tebow's backup and not the other way around should tell you enough about who was better on the college level running that type of offense.

Now the NFL might be a different story...

silkamilkamonico
11-01-2011, 11:49 AM
Tebow was an outstanding college player. Unfortunately for the Denver Broncos hope that he translates to the NFL, so was Jason White and Matt Lienart.

Fullback32
11-01-2011, 11:53 AM
Did anyone consider the idea that Elway & Co. are willing to play Tebow until he has a couple strong games in the hopes they can reel in a decent draft pick from a QB desperate team?
I see it as a definite possibility that within the F.O. they have already decided to draft a guy with the skills they seek,rather than taking on a huge project...so,you put the guy out there hoping he can spark some interest.
So far....not so good.
But, by years end maybe he can improve to the point where a ground & pound team see's him as an asset ?
just a theory:salute:

I think they played him as a business decision more than anything. Obviously the fans were tired of Orton and if management hadn't put in Tebow, there would have been a minor riot...or at least increasing empty seats at games. Tebow brought people in, but it won't last as all can see. If they lose to the Raiders this week, I think Fox has made it clear that Tebow will not see another snap as starting QB.

But they can't put Orton back in, can they? Too much bad blood with the fan base now. I predict we'll see Quinn against the Bengals and probably for the rest of the season and then go after Luck, Barley one of the higher rated QBs in the college draft.

For Tebow, I think his best bet is to be converted to another position, much like Matt Jones was...without all the issues, of course.

T.K.O.
11-01-2011, 11:54 AM
Speaking of draft picks,does anyone know if Quinn is under contract for next year ?
if we keep him off the field can we get a 5th for him ?
not a fifth of JD to keep kyle happy....a 5th round pick?:D

BroncosfanInKC
11-01-2011, 11:56 AM
Im referring to the 2007 season compared to Cam's one season not his entire tenure at Florida. And the leading team for NFL players is Miami they hold the most 1st round draft picks as well.

Auburn had the 4th best recruiting class Cam Newtons year what are you talking about.
Im basing my opinion about what I saw on the field. 2007 Gators werent as good as the 2010 Tigers we get to see tons of SEC football here in KC I know what Im talking about

silkamilkamonico
11-01-2011, 11:57 AM
Quinn is not under contract next year, and we are going to have to send our 5th to Cleveland this year to complete the trade for him

silkamilkamonico
11-01-2011, 11:58 AM
Im referring to the 2007 season compared to Cam's one season not his entire tenure at Florida. And the leading team for NFL players is Miami they hold the most 1st round draft picks as well.

Auburn had the 4th best recruiting class Cam Newtons year what are you talking about.
Im basing my opinion about what I saw on the field. 2007 Gators werent as good as the 2010 Tigers we get to see tons of SEC football here in KC I know what Im talking about

SMH at you comparing 1 recruiting class to 4 (and then those that were top 5 also while Tebow was playing there), which is basically an entire team.

BroncosfanInKC
11-01-2011, 12:01 PM
SMH at you comparing 1 recruiting class to 4, which is basically an entire team.

WOW Cause there is a huge difference from 1 to 4 when in the rankings adding one player can help you move up in the rankings. Having one extra 4 star or 5 star player can make up that difference. And it only translates to winning games if they play and are good. How much College Football do you even watch?

MOtorboat
11-01-2011, 12:03 PM
WOW Cause there is a huge difference from 1 to 4 when in the rankings adding one player can help you move up in the rankings. Having one extra 4 star or 5 star player can make up that difference. And it only translates to winning games if they play and are good. How much College Football do you even watch?

Who gives a shit?

Newton is obviously the better pro right now.

silkamilkamonico
11-01-2011, 12:09 PM
WOW Cause there is a huge difference from 1 to 4 when in the rankings adding one player can help you move up in the rankings. Having one extra 4 star or 5 star player can make up that difference. And it only translates to winning games if they play and are good. How much College Football do you even watch?

You are clearly clueless and wasting my time.

Florida rankings
2003 - 2nd ranked class
2004 - 7th ranked class
2005 - 15th ranked class
2006 - 2nd ranked class
Tebow joins a program that is already littered with the top prospects
2007 - #1 ranked class
2008 - 3rd ranked class

Auburn rankings
2007 - 7th ranked class
2008 - 20th ranked class
2009 - 19th ranked class
2010 - 4th ranked class
Can joins the a program that is littered with solid and some top prospects

It ain't rocket science.

NightTerror218
11-01-2011, 12:13 PM
You are clearly clueless and wasting my time.

Florida rankings
2003 - 2nd ranked class
2004 - 7th ranked class
2005 - 15th ranked class
2006 - 2nd ranked class
Tebow joins a program that is already littered with the top prospects
2007 - #1 ranked class
2008 - 3rd ranked class

Auburn rankings
2007 - 7th ranked class
2008 - 20th ranked class
2009 - 19th ranked class
2010 - 4th ranked class
Can joins the a program that is littered with solid and some top prospects

It ain't rocket science.

Fairley won the BSC Championship game for them. He was defense that won games for them.

T.K.O.
11-01-2011, 12:14 PM
Quinn is not under contract next year, and we are going to have to send our 5th to Cleveland this year to complete the trade for him

ah.....but we get the rams 5th for Lloyd.

silkamilkamonico
11-01-2011, 12:14 PM
Fairley won the BSC Championship game for them. He was defense that won games for them.

What does that have to do with recruiting rankings?

T.K.O.
11-01-2011, 12:15 PM
Tebow is averaging 82 YPG in the air:elefant:
has a 46% comp. rate:beer:
and yet.....he has a qbr of 75.1 to Orton's 75.7:confused:
we are SCREWED !:shocked:

NightTerror218
11-01-2011, 12:39 PM
What does that have to do with recruiting rankings?

Nothing really, just saying it was not all Cam on that team. But from what you showed they were 4th.

NightTerror218
11-01-2011, 12:39 PM
Tebow is averaging 82 YPG in the air:elefant:
has a 46% comp. rate:beer:
and yet.....he has a qbr of 75.1 to Orton's 75.7:confused:
we are SCREWED !:shocked:

how does he average 82 YPG? Is that in all quarters but the 4th?

silkamilkamonico
11-01-2011, 12:45 PM
Nothing really, just saying it was not all Cam on that team. But from what you showed they were 4th.

I don't understand? The 4th what? The argument you quoted was referring to both Cam and Tebow joined a team that had good talent, but when Tebow joined the Gators they were already littered with some of the nations best players. Cam too but not nearly as much.

T.K.O.
11-01-2011, 12:50 PM
how does he average 82 YPG? Is that in all quarters but the 4th?

it could be just the 2 games he's started ...but that's from ESPN stats page for passers.

T.K.O.
11-01-2011, 12:53 PM
how does he average 82 YPG? Is that in all quarters but the 4th?

it could be just the 2 games he's started ...but that's from ESPN stats page for passers.
RK PLAYER TEAM ATT COMP PCT YDS YDS/A LONG TD INT SACK RATE YDS/G
31 Tarvaris Jackson, QB SEA 197 120 60.9 1,335 6.78 55 6 6 20 78.5 223
32 Kevin Kolb, QB ARI 227 129 56.8 1,706 7.52 73 8 8 24 77.8 244
33 Christian Ponder, QB MIN 77 40 51.9 554 7.20 72 3 2 6 77.5 185
34 Colt McCoy, QB CLE 286 163 57.0 1,618 5.66 56 9 5 16 76.4 231
35 Kyle Orton, QB DEN 155 91 58.7 979 6.32 52 8 7 9 75.7 196
36 Joe Flacco, QB BAL 262 141 53.8 1,751 6.68 74 8 6 16 75.4 250
37 Tim Tebow, QB DEN 76 35 46.1 412 5.42 42 4 1 13 75.1 82
38 Curtis Painter, QB IND 168 91 54.2 1,123 6.69 87 5 4 9 75.1 187
39 Josh Freeman, QB TB 270 166 61.5 1,723 6.38 65 7 10 9 73.1 246
40 Sam Bradford, QB STL 196 104 53.1 1,177 6.01 68 3 2 21 72.2 235

Cugel
11-01-2011, 12:57 PM
I think Fox should declare Tebow the starter for the season, and give him a chance of around 20 games. Anything less isn't a fair evaluation.
Moreno can't run, Franklin can't block, and Royal runs a 2 yard pattern when we need 3.

Detroit really is loaded with talent I think this week was a worse case scenario. I'll see Tebow live next week I got a free skybox pass.

You just can't do that! Can you imagine how cruel it would be if he keeps playing horribly to just leave him in game after game? It's not just the normal pressure of being an NFL QB on a lousy football team.

It's that he was supposed to be some kind of miracle worker who would step onto the field and save the franchise!

Millions of people "believed" in Tebow. They had "faith". They got emotionally invested in him.

When all that faith is crushed there's going to be a bitter reaction. And all the fans who either were critics from the start or were on the band-wagon but jumped off are going to be merciless with Tebow.

Fallen idols do not fare well when the mob turns on them.

You just can't put him out there for another 5 home games and have the fans screaming and mocking him and the other team laughing at him and his players angry and the media firestorm calling for him to quit football and calling him a bust.

It's got to feel like the whole world is caving in on his dream. Give the kid a break! They're going to have to put him on the bench at some point, just like they pull a goalie in hockey when he's given up 5 goals in the first 2 periods.

I Eat Staples
11-01-2011, 01:02 PM
If we do draft another QB next year (and I believe we will) I hope people aren't clamoring for his benching and calling him a lost cause after a couple of bad games and a 2-3 start to his career.

Its not about the stats. Its not even about poor play for Tebow. Its about how terrible he looks trying to be a QB. There's no reason to turn a FB into a QB when you can draft a real QB.

claymore
11-01-2011, 01:03 PM
Its not about the stats. Its not even about poor play for Tebow. Its about how terrible he looks trying to be a QB. There's no reason to turn a FB into a QB when you can draft a real QB.

He looks like a LB'er thats playing emergencey QB. It doesnt look natural.

Cugel
11-01-2011, 01:04 PM
Besides it's not like Brady Quinn is anything great. What happens if they give Tebow 3 starts and he's horrible for all three games (two-fer already). Then they bench him with 8 games left to go and put in Quinn and HE's horrible?

What do you do then? Keep Quinn in there and take a beating? Put Orton back in? He was pretty bad himself remember?

The bottom line is that the Broncos franchise QB is not on the current roster and none of them can play. So, what do you do?

I think they should play Tebow until after the Jets game and then start Quinn if things don't improve.

But, Fox is clearly going to make a move before then. Possibly as early as after the next game.


"For this week, yes," Fox said (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/15929071/fox-tebow-still-starter-pocket-passing-must-improve-soon).

By not committing to him beyond Sunday's game at Oakland, Fox made it clear that Tebow has to quickly improve as a pocket passer to retain his starting status in Denver.

NightTerror218
11-01-2011, 01:04 PM
it could be just the 2 games he's started ...but that's from ESPN stats page for passers.
RK PLAYER TEAM ATT COMP PCT YDS YDS/A LONG TD INT SACK RATE YDS/G
31 Tarvaris Jackson, QB SEA 197 120 60.9 1,335 6.78 55 6 6 20 78.5 223
32 Kevin Kolb, QB ARI 227 129 56.8 1,706 7.52 73 8 8 24 77.8 244
33 Christian Ponder, QB MIN 77 40 51.9 554 7.20 72 3 2 6 77.5 185
34 Colt McCoy, QB CLE 286 163 57.0 1,618 5.66 56 9 5 16 76.4 231
35 Kyle Orton, QB DEN 155 91 58.7 979 6.32 52 8 7 9 75.7 196
36 Joe Flacco, QB BAL 262 141 53.8 1,751 6.68 74 8 6 16 75.4 250
37 Tim Tebow, QB DEN 76 35 46.1 412 5.42 42 4 1 13 75.1 82
38 Curtis Painter, QB IND 168 91 54.2 1,123 6.69 87 5 4 9 75.1 187
39 Josh Freeman, QB TB 270 166 61.5 1,723 6.38 65 7 10 9 73.1 246
40 Sam Bradford, QB STL 196 104 53.1 1,177 6.01 68 3 2 21 72.2 235


It is scewed. It it basing it off 5 games instead of the 3 he played in. Which for 2.5 games is 164.8 YPG.

T.K.O.
11-01-2011, 01:12 PM
It is scewed. It it basing it off 5 games instead of the 3 he played in. Which for 2.5 games is 164.8 YPG.

why would they have 5 games ? it's this seasons stats for all the other qb's?

TT15Superman
11-01-2011, 01:13 PM
urban meyer and josh mcdaniels both should get punched in the nuts, because it looks like neither of them ever bothered to teach the kid to friggin' play. . . it looks like he's completely clueless what to do from pretty much the second the ball hits his hands. . . dude's been playing football (playing quarterback!) for years, and he looks like the most helpless, panicked deer in the headlights i've ever seen...1. Tebow did great in Urban's system.
2. No way you change the throwing motion of your QB when you're on the verge of a National Title.
3. NCAA rules prohibit extended hours with a student, thus, the time required was not there.

Look at it this way:
1. Tebow changed his motion to make it more compact with a faster release.
2. Tebow plays with said changed motion during practice. Works on timing with his receivers.
3. However, Tebow during games is regressing to his old motion when pressured.

If Tebow's motion is 0.25 sec slower in game time vs. practice time, he'll be inaccurate with his throws on crossing patterns, slants, and deep routes. However, his accuracy should be fine to spots on the outside.

Why? If a receiver runs a 4.5 sec 40yd dash, and Tebow is 0.25 sec slower, that's 2.2 yds traveled. Granted on slants and crossing routes, they're not running that fast, but still, even half that speed would mean 1.1 yds traveled. Hence, the ball is off target and behind the receiver.

He's throwing to a spot that he's used to in practice. However, it's behind his receiver or slightly off during game time.

Summary, you don't change the motion of your QB as it might affect timing issues. You work on footwork to improve accuracy and balance.

claymore
11-01-2011, 01:15 PM
1. Tebow did great in Urban's system.
2. No way you change the throwing motion of your QB when you're on the verge of a National Title.
3. NCAA rules prohibit extended hours with a student, thus, the time required was not there.

Look at it this way:
1. Tebow changed his motion to make it more compact with a faster release.
2. Tebow plays with said changed motion during practice. Works on timing with his receivers.
3. However, Tebow during games is regressing to his old motion when pressured.

If Tebow's motion is 0.25 sec slower in game time vs. practice time, he'll be inaccurate with his throws on crossing patterns, slants, and deep routes. However, his accuracy should be fine to spots on the outside.

Why? If a receiver runs a 4.5 sec 40yd dash, and Tebow is 0.25 sec slower, that's 2.2 yds traveled. Granted on slants and crossing routes, they're not running that fast, but still, even half that speed would mean 1.1 yds traveled.

He's throwing to a spot that he's used to in practice. However, it's behind his receiver or slightly off.

Summary, you don't change the motion of your QB as it might affect timing issues. You work on footwork to improve accuracy and balance.

I think he sucks in practice too. Thats why he didnt start, and the reports from training camp. :noidea:

NightTerror218
11-01-2011, 01:17 PM
why would they have 5 games ? it's this seasons stats for all the other qb's?

I dont know. Probably because he was in at WR for them so he did accrue playing time? I am not sure.

Fullback32
11-01-2011, 01:21 PM
Somewhere in St Louis, Josh McDaniels is saying, "Glad we don't have to play the Broncos this year." He didn't want to see his image burned in effigy or have to yell, "Save me Bill Belichick, save me!"

Ravage!!!
11-01-2011, 02:43 PM
I don't know why anyone is bringing up the 1-1 record when talking about Tebow being the worst QB in the NFL. You can lose, and still play well, just as you can win and play Terribly! Tebow did NOT win that game. His play was STILL horrendous.

Yes, right now, Tebow is the worst QB in the NFL.

IF he gets benched, it is NOT a sign that the coaching staff is clueless. Nor would it lose the locker room. It would gain locker room if they see that the coach isn't purely going to continue to start crap, just to watch crap.

The FANS are the ones that feel they "Need" to evaluate Tebow. Believe me when I say, that the coaches have plenty of knowledge to evaluate Tim. They don't need '20 games' to see if he can continue to start for the Broncos.

silkamilkamonico
11-01-2011, 03:19 PM
Dan Patrick was on talking about Tebow last night. Him and his co-host both agreed Tebow was the worst starting QB in the NFL. They argued that it came down between him and Gabbert, and that they would rather have Gabbert because he is more polished, has more upside, is a season younger, and you don't have to waste valuable time and resources trying to teach him how to throw basic routes in the NFL.

Patrick stated the problems in Denver are far from just Tebow, yet Tebow is the 3rd best QB on our own roster. He also called our organization completely guided-less, and says Denver has no plan of progressive improvement, because all this implementing of an offense we are doing for Tebow, is just going to be changed again next year when we go with a different QB.

I Eat Staples
11-01-2011, 04:37 PM
I think he sucks in practice too. Thats why he didnt start, and the reports from training camp. :noidea:

This reminds me of when people said Orton was good in practice. I think Orton was always mediocre, he was just better than the other two scrubs we have. Chances are, players who don't practice well, won't play well. And please no one bring up Hillis, Hillis was not traded because he didn't practice well, he was traded because McDaniels was a moron.

McDaniels really screwed us over by drafting Tebow. As Silk just pointed out, we're altering our offense to suit a player who has no business as a starting QB in this league. If Tebow doesn't show extreme improvement, I can only hope this failed experiment is over with quickly and doesn't harm our future.

Ravage!!!
11-01-2011, 04:46 PM
This reminds me of when people said Orton was good in practice. I think Orton was always mediocre, he was just better than the other two scrubs we have. Chances are, players who don't practice well, won't play well.

You know whats even more funny? People keep saying that Tebow "needs to sit and learn." But he sat. Now that he's in the game and sucking, now people want to say "he's essentially a rookie because he hasn't played!" So which is it? DOes he need to watch, or does he need to play, because it seems people want to have it both ways.

Some thought the talk and the statements that Fox gave "Orton gives us the best CHANCE to win" was bogus and made up. I think its VERY VERY obvious that he wasn't exaggerating, he wasn't making things up, there was no conspiracy to keep Tebow down, and Tim is just as "horrible" as all the reports from TCs said he was.

What really pisses people off... is that Tim's own play is proving Hoge right.

Fullback32
11-01-2011, 04:52 PM
You know whats even more funny? People keep saying that Tebow "needs to sit and learn." But he sat. Now that he's in the game and sucking, now people want to say "he's essentially a rookie because he hasn't played!" So which is it? DOes he need to watch, or does he need to play, because it seems people want to have it both ways.

Some thought the talk and the statements that Fox gave "Orton gives us the best CHANCE to win" was bogus and made up. I think its VERY VERY obvious that he wasn't exaggerating, he wasn't making things up, there was no conspiracy to keep Tebow down, and Tim is just as "horrible" as all the reports from TCs said he was.

What really pisses people off... is that Tim's own play is proving Hoge right.

Exactly and which is a big part of the reason he was put in. They had to show the fanbase what they were seeing in practice. They knew the season was going no where as it was, so why not get it over with? If they hadn't done it, then all the Tebow talk would just keep growing. This was really the only way to make it stop and start making real plans for the future. They had to make the fans actually understand and words alone weren't doing it. The fans had to see it. Smart move actually.

Ravage!!!
11-01-2011, 05:59 PM
Exactly and which is a big part of the reason he was put in. They had to show the fanbase what they were seeing in practice. They knew the season was going no where as it was, so why not get it over with? If they hadn't done it, then all the Tebow talk would just keep growing. This was really the only way to make it stop and start making real plans for the future. They had to make the fans actually understand and words alone weren't doing it. The fans had to see it. Smart move actually.

Other than the fact (and I was laughed at for mentioning it weeks before Tebow was starting) that it lowered Tebow's trade value by starting him. The mystery of Tebow's play was worth more than the "post-play" Tebow.

HORSEPOWER 56
11-01-2011, 06:23 PM
I doubt we will after watching Tebow and Orton for the past 3 years. He would have to be worse than Tebow (not easy) to warrant that type of feeling.

Blaine Gabbert is actually playing worse than Tebow... with a much better defense and one of the top 5 RBs in the league.

Right now, I'd actually rather have Tebow than Gabbert.

Northman
11-01-2011, 06:25 PM
People need to remember that Gabbert could just be flat out bad. He may be a true pocket passer but i was never sold on him coming out of college anyway. The biggest surprise to me so far is Newton and Ponder whom both have looked really good in just a few games.

Dirk
11-01-2011, 06:27 PM
People need to remember that Gabbert could just be flat out bad. He may be a true pocket passer but i was never sold on him coming out of college anyway. The biggest surprise to me so far is Newton and Ponder whom both have looked really good in just a few games.

I had a feeling that Ponder would be good.....but I would have bet almost anything that Newton was going to suck it up. I tip my hat to the kid....he is proving me wrong.

SM19
11-01-2011, 06:34 PM
Blaine Gabbert is actually playing worse than Tebow... with a much better defense and one of the top 5 RBs in the league.

Right now, I'd actually rather have Tebow than Gabbert.

It's really a very close call whether Tebow or Gabbert is playing worse. ESPN's TQBR has Tebow performing slightly worse than Gabbert; FootballOutsiders' DVOA and DYAR have Gabbert slightly worse than Tebow. Both metrics rank these two as the worst of all qualified passers, though.

Lancane
11-01-2011, 06:37 PM
It's really a very close call whether Tebow or Gabbert is playing worse. ESPN's TQBR has Tebow performing slightly worse than Gabbert; FootballOutsiders' DVOA and DYAR have Gabbert slightly worse than Tebow. Both metrics rank these two as the worst of all qualified passers, though.

Sadly, and I've said this two or three times in the last day or two...Tebow is really a better fit for Jacksonville's offense and Gabbert is a better fit for Denver's offense - which is ironic when you think about it.

dogfish
11-01-2011, 06:41 PM
the fact that you're even debating whether gabbert is worse pretty much says it all. . . being the 31st best QB in the league is no stinkin' different from being the 32nd, at all. . .

Nick
11-01-2011, 06:49 PM
Gabbert sucks and any one that thought he was going to be good is on something.

He could turn it around if he is not scared to take a hit and has the confidence to give it that extra second.... BUT I don't see it.

Sad to talk about a Broncos QB and Gabbert in same sentence...
:rolleyes:

Superchop 7
11-01-2011, 06:50 PM
Ponder and Newton both went to IMG (school run by pro QBs) in the offseason.......if you want a young QB to be ready......thats the program.

ikillz0mbies
11-01-2011, 07:13 PM
At this point, I honestly feel Tebow is a bad QB. Regardless of what the fan base wants, he is not a fit for what the organization and the coaching staff are aiming for. I like him, but he has been horrid this season. Yes it has only been 2 games, but there are more negatives than positives. And yes, he led a comeback in the final 3 minutes against a TERRIBLE Dolphins team. But you need to beat teams like the Lions if this team is going to succeed and Tebow looks like he isn't the answer for the Broncos. Also, not showing up in the first 3 quarters and only showing up on the 4th isn't going to get a team anywhere. Simple throws and reads are things the QB MUST make, yet Tebow struggles at that. It's not looking too well for him unfortunately.

NightTerror218
11-01-2011, 07:17 PM
At this point, I honestly feel Tebow is a bad QB. Regardless of what the fan base wants, he is not a fit for what the organization and the coaching staff are aiming for. I like him, but he has been horrid this season. Yes it has only been 2 games, but there are more negatives than positives. And yes, he led a comeback in the final 3 minutes against a TERRIBLE Dolphins team. But you need to beat teams like the Lions if this team is going to succeed and Tebow looks like he isn't the answer for the Broncos. Also, not showing up in the first 3 quarters and only showing up on the 4th isn't going to get a team anywhere. Simple throws and reads are things the QB MUST make, yet Tebow struggles at that. It's not looking too well for him unfortunately.

Only 2 games this season with no off season or OTA. New coaching staff, new offense. New WR for him. It takes more then 2 games to evaluate a QB, given also how he looked at the end of last season. I think he now has an uphill battle to stay with this team unless he is going to be fighting off a rookie for the starting position and be the back up. I think looking from last season to this season he has regressed but 2 games is not enough. If he shows no improvement over 4-5 games then that is something.

Lancane
11-01-2011, 07:30 PM
Only 2 games this season with no off season or OTA. New coaching staff, new offense. New WR for him.

The same could be said for Cam Newton, Christian Ponder, Andy Dalton, Colt McCoy and Sam Bradford. All five went without OTA's, are in new offenses or totally new staffs and unfamiliar receivers. Not to mention that Denver's offense was a dumbed down version of the same offense.

Please find another excuse, I don't mind that you feel he needs more time to adjust or for evaluation. But the excuses lose validity when other quarterbacks have undergone much the same, placed in completely new offensive schemes unlike him and have flourished.

;)

NightTerror218
11-01-2011, 07:34 PM
The same could be said for Cam Newton, Christian Ponder, Andy Dalton, Colt McCoy and Sam Bradford. All five went without OTA's, are in new offenses or totally new staffs and unfamiliar receivers. Not to mention that Denver's offense was a dumbed down version of the same offense.

Please find another excuse, I don't mind that you feel he needs more time to adjust or for evaluation. But the excuses lose validity when other quarterbacks have undergone much the same, placed in completely new offensive schemes unlike him and have flourished.

;)

McCoy and Bradford are in 2nd year and have received 1st reps for a year and coaching.

Tebow was known to be a major project and would need lots of coaching. He has not received that coaching until now.

But he needs to show some improvement and he is not. He is not progressing at all so far, but its unfair to him to judge off 2 games. I say he has 2 more games to prove it, which is a good month of coaching, 1st team reps to get down timing and let the QB drama settle with Orton.

Lancane
11-01-2011, 07:55 PM
McCoy and Bradford are in 2nd year and have received 1st reps for a year and coaching.

Tebow was known to be a major project and would need lots of coaching. He has not received that coaching until now.

But he needs to show some improvement and he is not. He is not progressing at all so far, but its unfair to him to judge off 2 games. I say he has 2 more games to prove it, which is a good month of coaching, 1st team reps to get down timing and let the QB drama settle with Orton.

Tebow is likewise a second year pro, people need to quit assessing him as a rookie, cause most rookies are putting his ass to shame as is - especially considering that he has had over a season and seven weeks not only with a pro coaching staff (no matter how inept) in a similar scheme under the same offensive coordinator, he's had time with first, second and third team, he should have a better rapport with all those on offense...more then anyone, including Decker, Royal and Thomas. And he has had time with starters, what...was he still playing with second stringers the final three weeks last season? Ponder had how many weeks with the starters before he was thrown into the mix?

And he goes through the same progressive practices as the others, week in and week out, and he should have improved somewhat over last year, but no...he's regressed. Do you think that the position coach or coordinator only coach one quarterback at a time? That train of thought is absolutely asinine. And it doesn't make a difference if he's a project quarterback, he was drafted in the first and will be regarded in the same said standards as others. The Broncos as an organization are not married to him, it's the fans that are.

If he looks much like he did last week, it will be hard for Denver to save face and justify starting him anytime after that, even so he may get one more game...but more then two with no progression? I don't see it happening and I am sure you don't either.

ikillz0mbies
11-01-2011, 08:08 PM
Tebow is likewise a second year pro, people need to quit assessing him as a rookie, cause most rookies are putting his ass to shame as is - especially considering that he has had over a season and seven weeks not only with a pro coaching staff (no matter how inept) in a similar scheme under the same offensive coordinator, he's had time with first, second and third team, he should have a better rapport with all those on offense...more then anyone, including Decker, Royal and Thomas. And he has had time with starters, what...was he still playing with second stringers the final three weeks last season? Ponder had how many weeks with the starters before he was thrown into the mix?

And he goes through the same progressive practices as the others, week in and week out, and he should have improved somewhat over last year, but no...he's regressed. Do you think that the position coach or coordinator only coach one quarterback at a time? That train of thought is absolutely asinine. And it doesn't make a difference if he's a project quarterback, he was drafted in the first and will be regarded in the same said standards as others. The Broncos as an organization are not married to him, it's the fans that are.

If he looks much like he did last week, it will be hard for Denver to save face and justify starting him anytime after that, even so he may get one more game...but more then two with no progression? I don't see it happening and I am sure you don't either.

I agree with this. The no off-season/OTA thing hurt everyone, but should it be an excuse for Tebow when QB's with a year-less of experience didn't hurt them as much? Tebow has had last year and this year to work on his mechanics and accuracy, and he hasn't shown improvements. How much more time are you going to give him until enough is enough?

Locnar
11-01-2011, 08:26 PM
He might not be able to hit wide open receivers or runningbacks that are a few feet away from him.. BUT he still has intangibles.

I really like Tebow. I want nothing more than him to be successful. BUT HE CAN'T THROW. I hope he gets this passing thing down.. Eh.. Maybe passing in the nfl is just overrated..

NameUsedBefore
11-01-2011, 08:35 PM
Such patience. What ability to evaluate! Of course, I'm joking because the evaluations here are completely off the mark and deploying farcical comparisons where we equate radically different worlds for the sake of making a paper-thin point.

I suppose it would be easy to put anyone to shame if you were handing the ball off to literally the best running-back in the league. Or passing to a whole host of great receivers while having a two-headed running attack behind you. Unfortunately, Denver does not have any of these things. Sam Bradford, the best rookie QB in years per some, flopped hard this year. All his great mechanics couldn't save him from being on a shit team. Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco are struggling, presumably because people now have tape on them both. Having talented players around them both saved neither. They are mortal. Josh Freeman? Boy wonder, team-carrier of the year last season? Struggling. Struggling pretty hard. Interestingly, the total shitbag that is Alex Smith is... suddenly playing pretty well? Huh? Are... are we still evaluating a player after two games? Is this baseball? Is he the only one out there? Why isn't he a miracle worker? Are my fellow football fans cheering for the wrong sport?

I Eat Staples
11-01-2011, 08:45 PM
People need to remember that Gabbert could just be flat out bad. He may be a true pocket passer but i was never sold on him coming out of college anyway. The biggest surprise to me so far is Newton and Ponder whom both have looked really good in just a few games.

Yeah I wasn't high on Gabbert but he's been worse than I thought. Newton and Ponder have surprised me, I didn't think much at all of either of them.

I had Ryan Mallet as the best QB in that draft, but we'll have to wait a while to see what he's got.

chazoe60
11-01-2011, 09:03 PM
I thought all along Ponder would end up being the best from this draft class. I wanted us to draft him if he made it to our second round pick. As much as I liked him I was shocked to see him go at 12.

Newton will flop, I still believe that.

Lancane
11-01-2011, 09:37 PM
Problem with Gabbert is that he doesn't fit Jacksonville's offense, Dirk Koetter was directed to edge away from the more conservative offense they're used to and build upon Blaine Gabbert's ability and talent. Which is sort of hard to do when your best offensive playmaker is your running back, your tight end is struggling to adjust not to mention is the best receiver on the team as far as talent is concerned. Plus your leading receiver, the best of the bunch is 5'8 and a buck nothing wet. It's quite possible that Gabbert flairs out in Jacksonville goes elsewhere like Favre or Young and has a great career.

I've been saying this and I'll do it once again, but Tebow is a far better fit for Jacksonville's offense and Gabbert would be a better fit here. If I could, I would trade them in a heartbeat, at least Tebow would raise ticket sales if nothing else there, while Gabbert I believe would flourish here.

That said, we can say Gabbert is the worst quarterback in the NFL, but at least he's a rookie with less then a season in a flawed offensive system, Tebow doesn't have that luxury.

I'm not as high on Gabbert as I am on others, but he is better then people believe, Jake Locker was probably the quarterback I was hoping for most in the last draft behind Ryan Mallett.

TXBRONC
11-01-2011, 09:43 PM
Does anyone know about the BQ trade and if it is true that Denver will have to give up a higher pick if BQ plays a certain amount?

If that is true, then I don't care how bad Tebow is, you can't play Quinn.

I think most fans do.

jhildebrand
11-01-2011, 11:58 PM
Jared " The Pillsbury Throwboy" Lorenzen has occupied my thoughts a lot the past two days. :mad:

Magnificent Seven
11-02-2011, 12:21 AM
Tebow is 1-1. His last chance for week 8. If Tebow didn't do well... then Elway will start to find a short cut to get Stanford's Andrew Luck.

BroncoNut
11-02-2011, 10:11 AM
Jared " The Pillsbury Throwboy" Lorenzen has occupied my thoughts a lot the past two days. :mad:

whatever happened to him? He played for Kentucky didn't he?

Lancane
11-02-2011, 10:18 AM
whatever happened to him? He played for Kentucky didn't he?

He's a general manager/quarterback for some AFL team.

claymore
11-02-2011, 10:21 AM
Does anyone else hear Benny Hill music when Tebow drops back to pass, and then gets flustered in the pocket?

Dzone
11-02-2011, 10:25 AM
Tebow is way worse than anyone ever thought.

MOtorboat
11-02-2011, 10:30 AM
Does anyone else hear Benny Hill music when Tebow drops back to pass, and then gets flustered in the pocket?

Dan Reeves told me it was going to be like John Elway...no, no, no, no, yes, yes, yes!

So far it's been, no, no, no, no, THROW IT!, no, oh jeebus no.

Dzone
11-02-2011, 10:36 AM
I dont know what has sucked worse-Having Orton start the season or seeing how dreadful Tebow is??

nmcaff
11-02-2011, 12:01 PM
Here is my article on Tim Tebow for the Collegiate Times http://bit.ly/vueQow

There isn't a whole lot that is positive though, fair warning.

dogfish
11-02-2011, 12:10 PM
thank god, more takes on tebow!



:elefant:

T.K.O.
11-03-2011, 03:41 PM
WOW ! check out last weeks total QBR page at ESPN:eek:
Stafford was the highest.....guess who was the worst ?:lol:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7171972/nfl-week-8-total-qbr-leaders

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
11-03-2011, 03:48 PM
I'm honestly baffled. I don't see how it could really be that bad. Ten yard out patterns aren't that tough to hit. I wonder if he's trying to throw the ball too hard?

I'm honestly baffled....I really want the kid to exceed for two reasons.
1. If he can play well then we have a QB to go forward with. Things are pretty bleak going forward. What are the chances we could get in the Luck Sweepstakes? Pretty slim.....
2. I really like the kid and want him to succeed.

Unfortunately, if he doesn't start getting the ball out quicker he's gonna be on the bench soon, and that's really too bad. I just don't see how he can be that inaccurate. I think a few of the throws have been wrong routes, but that doesn't explain a lot of it. I just don't see how he could become less accurate. His deep throws were money last year, yet this year they're either long or they sail out of bounds. What gives? I'm seriously perplexed about how he could work so hard and yet digress? I am completely baffled and disappointed.