Perspective...

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I know most of us are pretty disappointed with the way the team, particularly the offense, specifically our young starting QB, played today. I'm not surprised that his normally loyal fan club isn't here beating his drum. I've seen posts about drafting a QB, firing our offensive coordinator, bringing Orton back in, and even giving Brady Quinn a try. Here's what I'm thinking:

For whatever reason, our front office decided to bench Kyle Orton in favor of Tim Tebow. When they did that, they made a commitment to figure out what we have in Tebow. It seems they realized that once we had shown we wouldn't be competing for the playoffs with Orton (1-4), they had to know if we had a future with Tebow.

Now, I know we just got pulverized 45-10 (The Saints lost pretty badly to the winless Rams, the Redskins got shutout, and the Cowboys are getting shellacked). The thing is, was this a good enough tryout for Tebow? 2 games? For those who have an agenda that doesn't include him, yes. In all reality, no.

When we were all complaining about Orton, this is what we were asking for. The mindset was, "if we're gonna lose anyway, might as well lose with Tebow and see if he's the guy". Any delusions people had about some magical resurrection of this franchise by one player with 4 starts to his credit was complete folly. Our problems have always been about more than just Orton or Tebow.

Our offense has to be the youngest in the NFL right now. Rookies and second year guys all over the place. Most of whom are still learning the game as they are playing. Isn't it telling that our starting RB is our oldest starting offensive player, by like 4 years, at a position where your career is normally over at 30? We're young, we're inexperienced, and the only way any of them will get better is by taking their lumps on the field.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, lets just wait and see. Let's see how it all plays out over the next 2 months. Let's see if Tebow can improve. Let's see if the O-line can improve, let's see if McCoy can improve before we throw out all the babies with the bathwater. If we end the season the way we looked today, there will be some serious soul searching by the FO at season's end. If we can get better, and all these young guys can grow as a team, so much the better.

What were we really expecting? I'm ready to tighten my chin strap and just watch the games out of love for a team that I have no expectations for. Not investing myself emotionally and hanging on every game as if it's our last is probably for the best this season. Expecting this team to really be competitive week in and week out is unrealistic. Calling for this person's head or that person's head after every play in every game is going to make this place miserable and unbearable. Take it for what it is, a rebuild.

[BroncoStud]

I've been calling for McCoy's head all year and it has nothing to do with Tebow but everything to do with McCoy sucking nuts.

The guy is horrible and should have been fired along with McDaniels last year.

[Dreadnought]

I know most of us are pretty disappointed with the way the team, particularly the offense, specifically our young starting QB, played today. I'm not surprised that his normally loyal fan club isn't here beating his drum. I've seen posts about drafting a QB, firing our offensive coordinator, bringing Orton back in, and even giving Brady Quinn a try. Here's what I'm thinking:

For whatever reason, our front office decided to bench Kyle Orton in favor of Tim Tebow. When they did that, they made a commitment to figure out what we have in Tebow. It seems they realized that once we had shown we wouldn't be competing for the playoffs with Orton (1-4), they had to know if we had a future with Tebow.

Now, I know we just got pulverized 45-10 (The Saints lost pretty badly to the winless Rams, the Redskins got shutout, and the Cowboys are getting shellacked). The thing is, was this a good enough tryout for Tebow? 2 games? For those who have an agenda that doesn't include him, yes. In all reality, no.

When we were all complaining about Orton, this is what we were asking for. The mindset was, "if we're gonna lose anyway, might as well lose with Tebow and see if he's the guy". Any delusions people had about some magical resurrection of this franchise by one player with 4 starts to his credit was complete folly. Our problems have always been about more than just Orton or Tebow.

Our offense has to be the youngest in the NFL right now. Rookies and second year guys all over the place. Most of whom are still learning the game as they are playing. Isn't it telling that our starting RB is our oldest starting offensive player, by like 4 years, at a position where your career is normally over at 30? We're young, we're inexperienced, and the only way any of them will get better is by taking their lumps on the field.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, lets just wait and see. Let's see how it all plays out over the next 2 months. Let's see if Tebow can improve. Let's see if the O-line can improve, let's see if McCoy can improve before we throw out all the babies with the bathwater. If we end the season the way we looked today, there will be some serious soul searching by the FO at season's end. If we can get better, and all these young guys can grow as a team, so much the better.

What were we really expecting? I'm ready to tighten my chin strap and just watch the games out of love for a team that I have no expectations for. Not investing myself emotionally and hanging on every game as if it's our last is probably for the best this season. Expecting this team to really be competitive week in and week out is unrealistic. Calling for this person's head or that person's head after every play in every game is going to make this place miserable and unbearable. Take it for what it is, a rebuild.

My thoughts exactly. Well said.

[Northman]

Great post HP but i do need to clarify my stance. Im still all for keeping Tebow in the rest of the year but when i look across the board at just the QB position im not seeing the progress i thought i would be seeing. Doesnt mean Tebow still cant improve but deep down im just not sure if he's going to be able to do it. For me, its not really about winning the games this year because i know the team has other issues that need to be addressed. And 2 games this year isnt the be all end all to Tebow's failure or success. But, its also not going to stop me from stating what is on my mind at that given time (not that your trying to say otherwise). So for me its just about seeing how Tebow progresses and right now i just dont see it. Im not sure how other people view it but thats where i stand on it. If he can improve much better than great, but if not and it gets much worse than its going to be difficult not to speak on it.

[Medford Bronco]

Great post HP but i do need to clarify my stance. Im still all for keeping Tebow in the rest of the year but when i look across the board at just the QB position im not seeing the progress i thought i would be seeing. Doesnt mean Tebow still cant improve but deep down im just not sure if he's going to be able to do it. For me, its not really about winning the games this year because i know the team has other issues that need to be addressed. And 2 games this year isnt the be all end all to Tebow's failure or success. But, its also not going to stop me from stating what is on my mind at that given time (not that your trying to say otherwise). So for me its just about seeing how Tebow progresses and right now i just dont see it. Im not sure how other people view it but thats where i stand on it. If he can improve much better than great, but if not and it gets much worse than its going to be difficult not to speak on it.

I do agree.
I always root for the Broncos no matter what.
I want improvmement but seeing 45% is just asinine.

I want the kid to do well. Its not his fault the best WR was traded. I still think that was a stupid move. Oooh a 5th round pick. Great :rolleyes:

Its like asking a boxer to go in the ring with his shoes tied and a blindfold on. What handicap him. Its not like the offense was great even with Lloyd

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Great post HP, and I totally agree with you. I have read things like what do you expect, Tebow has only started 4 games. So, I believe it is fair to say, what do you expect - some on the coaching staff have been there for his 4 starts, and even though McCoy was here last year, we know who was running the offensive show then. Some, like Coach Fox, has only seen TT's 2 starts. I believe all should be given more time.

[Agent of Orange]

I posted my thoughts in another thread.

http://broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1419398&postcount=32

[Medford Bronco]

Great post HP, and I totally agree with you. I have read things like what do you expect, Tebow has only started 4 games. So, I believe it is fair to say, what do you expect - some on the coaching staff have been there for his 4 starts, and even though McCoy was here last year, we know who was running the offensive show then. Some, like Coach Fox, has only seen TT's 2 starts. I believe all should be given more time.

I hate the excuse of starts made. Dalton has made 7 NFL starts and so has Newton and Pollard of MN has 2 and done quite well and did not have OTAs either.

I agree on more time but was very disapointed today in everyone not just Tebow.

[DenBronx]

I'm not writing the kid off just yet but damn that was some of the ugliest football today. Honestly how can anyone say he was good?


But what's so wrong if it doesn't work out as QB to give him a try at H-Back? I don;t see any other team trying to trade for him so why not develop him more into the running game. He doesnt seem injury prone and thats been a huge problem with our RBs and he can honestly run!

[Chris90210]

agree 110%

[I Eat Staples]

I still want to see Tebow starting, I think there's a VERY small chance of him becoming successful but it doesn't harm us to leave him in at this point. Might as well be sure.

McCoy should be gone though. He's garbage and should have been sent packing with McD and that Wink guy.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Great post HP but i do need to clarify my stance. Im still all for keeping Tebow in the rest of the year but when i look across the board at just the QB position im not seeing the progress i thought i would be seeing. Doesnt mean Tebow still cant improve but deep down im just not sure if he's going to be able to do it. For me, its not really about winning the games this year because i know the team has other issues that need to be addressed. And 2 games this year isnt the be all end all to Tebow's failure or success. But, its also not going to stop me from stating what is on my mind at that given time (not that your trying to say otherwise). So for me its just about seeing how Tebow progresses and right now i just dont see it. Im not sure how other people view it but thats where i stand on it. If he can improve much better than great, but if not and it gets much worse than its going to be difficult not to speak on it.

You have to ask yourself what was our criteria for a rebuild? Mine was tear it down and build it the right way. Build through the draft. Don't overspend on over-the-hill FAs and keep only enough older vets to teach the younger guys the "right way" to do things. If you are going to sign FAs, find solid guys to fill gaps when necessary, but don't bring in premadonnas.

Right now, we're doing just that. We didn't sign any real big-name FAs that are costing us a ton to lose 45-10. The dead weight is either already gone, or will be at the end of the season. We didn't try to build up for some unrealistic run at the playoffs. We're playing the guys we drafted. A lot of our young guys are getting valuable game experience now, not sitting behind some mercenary FA who will be gone in a year or who will throw the team under the bus if we don't win or he doesn't get his touches.

It's painful to watch sometimes, but isn't that exactly what we really wanted and needed all along? This is win-win. If we end up losing most of our games, we get great draft picks and can continue to build through the draft and find solid, but not exorbitantly priced FAs. In the long run, all the work these young guys are getting will either pay dividends or at least we'll have a great barometer of who we should keep and who we shouldn't. These young guys get to grow as a team and suffer failure so they can earn success (that includes the coaching staff).

I'm excited about how all this could potentially turn out. This is the kind of rebuild we needed.

[DenBronx]

I still want to see Tebow starting, I think there's a VERY small chance of him becoming successful but it doesn't harm us to leave him in at this point. Might as well be sure.

McCoy should be gone though. He's garbage and should have been sent packing with McD and that Wink guy.

McCoy is awful. I think this team has seen enough of McCoy to last us a life time.


Fire him and put him out of his misery.


Cherry pick the OC from GB.

[DenBronx]

And without the 4 minute miracle when we played Mia it was just as awful.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I hate the excuse of starts made. Dalton has made 7 NFL starts and so has Newton and Pollard of MN has 2 and done quite well and did not have OTAs either.

I agree on more time but was very disapointed today in everyone not just Tebow.

But are those 3 QB's on teams who did not change the HC, who did not bring in some new coaches, the scheme was the same - what I am trying to say is, if they were on teams where practically everyone but them was familiar with the system, then more time could be devoted to just them to learn.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I do agree.
I always root for the Broncos no matter what.
I want improvmement but seeing 45% is just asinine.

I want the kid to do well. Its not his fault the best WR was traded. I still think that was a stupid move. Oooh a 5th round pick. Great :rolleyes:

Its like asking a boxer to go in the ring with his shoes tied and a blindfold on. What handicap him. Its not like the offense was great even with Lloyd

Lloyd played for himself. He was a 30 year old mercenary who was robbing touches from younger guys who have the potential to be here long term. If he really was "all that and a bag of chips", why were we only able to get a 6th/conditional 5th for him? That's the question you should try to answer for yourself. Was he more valuable to us than that this season? Maybe. Would having him here prevented a 45-10 rout by the Lions today? Hell no.

Once again, you're thinking about wins now, not building this team for the future. Lloyd wasn't part of that future. Lloyd is a guy that a playoff contender can grab and hope he works some magic. The Rams are hoping for a spark so signing a guy close to their new offensive coordinator made sense to them. He's still gonna want to get paid handsomely at the end of the year. They can have him and his highlight reel catches.

[Northman]

You have to ask yourself what was our criteria for a rebuild?

Depends on who you ask i guess. When i talked to guys like Tned a couple of weeks ago (not just him) they would tell me that we've been in every game and that we were actually better than we were. I personally didnt see it on opening day and havent seen it since. And while i am totally on board with a rebuild how long are we talking? Personally, i think we have some nice young talent on this team. However, i have to agree with the sentiment that we cant really afford to have Tebow just be "ok". If we want to build a legacy again its going to have to be a home run with the QB position. And if by chance Tebow is just average this year and we go into next year as him as the starter without drafting a QB this year than how much does that set us back?


Mine was tear it down and build it the right way. Build through the draft. Don't overspend on over-the-hill FAs and keep only enough older vets to teach the younger guys the "right way" to do things. If you are going to sign FAs, find solid guys to fill gaps when necessary, but don't bring in premadonnas.

Agreed.


Right now, we're doing just that. We didn't sign any real big-name FAs that are costing us a ton to lose 45-10. The dead weight is either already gone, or will be at the end of the season. We didn't try to build up for some unrealistic run at the playoffs. We're playing the guys we drafted. A lot of our young guys are getting valuable game experience now, not sitting behind some mercenary FA who will be gone in a year or who will throw the team under the bus if we don't win or he doesn't get his touches.

Again, agreed.


It's painful to watch sometimes, but isn't that exactly what we really wanted and needed all along? This is win-win. If we end up losing most of our games, we get great draft picks and can continue to build through the draft and find solid, but not exorbitantly priced FAs. In the long run, all the work these young guys are getting will either pay dividends or at least we'll have a great barometer of who we should keep and who we shouldn't. These young guys get to grow as a team and suffer failure so they can earn success (that includes the coaching staff).

I'm excited about how all this could potentially turn out. This is the kind of rebuild we needed.

I totally agree with you. This is what i wanted from day one. Again, the loss doesnt really bother me per se because i didnt expect to win it anyway. Especially with McGahee down but i did expect a much better performance from Tebow and that is a little bit surprising to me. He could get better but we shall see how it plays out. But, i dont think its necessarily a bad thing to critique the problem areas on this team whether they are young or not.

As far as coaching, McCoy is a bum but thats really up to Fox to fix if he feels there is a problem there. I only point out the problems with Tebow because he is leading the offense and deep down i want him to succeed so we dont have to draft another QB. It just doesnt look like he's going to make it. IMO

[DenBronx]

Basically this is just a freebee year for Fox to evaluate the talent on the team.

Its all uphill from here, cant go any lower.

Unless we get smoked by oakland next week. :coffee:

[HORSEPOWER 56]

But are those 3 QB's on teams who did not change the HC, who did not bring in some new coaches, the scheme was the same - what I am trying to say is, if they were on teams where practically everyone but them was familiar with the system, then more time could be devoted to just them to learn.

Not to mention, but their supporting cast is better. Dalton doesn't have an offensive line consisting of a rookie RT and 2 second year interior lineman. He also has a very good defense who gets him the ball back and keeps the score low when he does screw up.

We are pretty talent deficient, but My hopes are with every snap that O-line gets, Franklin gets better. With every read Tebow blows, he learns something. With every route run short of the sticks or batted pass, the WRs are learning. With every screen, draw, pancake, and pressure, Von Miller is learning his trade.

That's what excites me. When all of these really young guys, Tebow or no Tebow, McCoy or no McCoy, Moreno or no Moreno, have a year or two of real game experience and are running around like a bunch of beasts out there and we look at our roster and say, damn we really have a good chance this year...

[MNPatsFan]

But are those 3 QB's on teams who did not change the HC, who did not bring in some new coaches, the scheme was the same - what I am trying to say is, if they were on teams where practically everyone but them was familiar with the system, then more time could be devoted to just them to learn.Carol, not sure what you are talking about because last time I checked both the Carolina Panthers (Cam Newton) and the Minnesota Vikings (Christian Ponder) have completely new coaching staffs this season.:confused:

Ron Rivera replaced John Fox who came to Denver, while Leslie Fraizer (sp?) replaced Brad Childress. So why are you claiming that Cam and Christian are on teams that did not change the HC, who did not bring in some new coaches?:confused:

[BroncoAV06]

Panthers is a whole new coaching staff with players who were on the worst team last season. They have only won once but sure as heck been in all those games and shanked the game tying FG today.

Fact is Newton is a good QB on another level already.

[NameUsedBefore]

McCoy has to go and should have been gone when McDaniels left. Seriously. Incompetent gameplan ahoy:

Extremely predictable 1st-downs. Seven or so drives started off with 0-3 yard runs up the middle. These were followed by equally predictable 2nd-downs, namely the play-action pass. Since Detroit is run by intelligent men, these did not fare well, particularly after they became the norm. 3rd-and-Long followed and against Detroit's menacing linemen, and more importantly their wide-scheme, this was obviously a disaster. These persisted throughout the entire game. What is strange is that running up the middle could theoretically work if you planned it right. If you utilized the Miami gameplan of running out of the shotgun with delayed hand offs you could probably gash Detroit's defense. Instead they went I/Strong-I formations against the Detroit defensive line with Captain Stutterstep.

Where were the slants, screens/bubbles or dumpoffs? Detroit ran a blitzer on more than half their defensive plays. McCoy responded by running seven-drop, play-action go-routes, literally the worst thing you can call against the defense Detroit runs. Remember when Cutler was getting torn to shreds taking 7-drops against Dallas last year? Remember when Martz realized how stupid it is to do 7-drops against that pass-rush and adjusted at half-time to 3-drops? And those dumping slants that went for touchdowns and smoked the Cowboys? Yeah, McCoy didn't do that. McCoy persisted in long-developing, low-percentage plays for almost the entire game against Suh, Bosch, Tulloch etc. Smart guy! Denver's receivers are almost all slot-runners, which is kind of troubling on its own, but where were plays developed for these kinds of players? At the end of the game we finally see a quick bubble to the right and it goes for a touchdown.


I am completely sick of the guy. He's like McDaniels, who also was very predictable, except, somehow, worse.

[Northman]

McCoy has to go and should have been gone when McDaniels left. Seriously. Incompetent gameplan ahoy:

Extremely predictable 1st-downs. Seven or so drives started off with 0-3 yard runs up the middle. These were followed by equally predictable 2nd-downs, namely the play-action pass. Since Detroit is run by intelligent men, these did not fare well, particularly after they became the norm. 3rd-and-Long followed and against Detroit's menacing linemen, and more importantly their wide-scheme, this was obviously a disaster. These persisted throughout the entire game. What is strange is that running up the middle could theoretically work if you planned it right. If you utilized the Miami gameplan of running out of the shotgun with delayed hand offs you could probably gash Detroit's defense. Instead they went I/Strong-I formations against the Detroit defensive line with Captain Stutterstep.

Where were the slants, screens/bubbles or dumpoffs? Detroit ran a blitzer on more than half their defensive plays. McCoy responded by running seven-drop, play-action go-routes, literally the worst thing you can call against the defense Detroit runs. Remember when Cutler was getting torn to shreds taking 7-drops against Dallas last year? Remember when Martz realized how stupid it is to do 7-drops against that pass-rush and adjusted at half-time to 3-drops? And those dumping slants that went for touchdowns and smoked the Cowboys? Yeah, McCoy didn't do that. McCoy persisted in long-developing, low-percentage plays for almost the entire game against Suh, Bosch, Tulloch etc. Smart guy! Denver's receivers are almost all slot-runners, which is kind of troubling on its own, but where were plays developed for these kinds of players? At the end of the game we finally see a quick bubble to the right and it goes for a touchdown.


I am completely sick of the guy. He's like McDaniels, who also was very predictable, except, somehow, worse.


Well, supposedly today there was supposed to be a gameplan that fit around Tebow's strengths. But i didnt see it.

[weazel]

Won't it suck if we lose out the rest of the season and we still have to watch the Colts or the Dolphins get Luck?

[silkamilkamonico]

Won't it suck if we lose out the rest of the season and we still have to watch the Colts or the Dolphins get Luck?

Not as bad as losing out the rest of the year and watching the Colts and Dolphins get Luck and Jones.

I'm sorry, Tebow is terrible. Has he regressed since last year? These are the QB's that already look more promising then him that we're drafted the last 2 years:

Dalton
McCoy
Gabbert
Ponder
Newton
Bradford

There isn't a starting QB in the NFL playing worse than Tebow. The worst thing about it, for as bad as things are in Denver, Tebow can't even give us a glimpse of hope. We don't even have hope for that.

You want perspective? Denver has nothing more than mass questions at multiple positions on both sides of the ball, and a coaching staff that doesn't seem to understand what it's doing.

I wish I could fast forward the rest of the year so I don't have to watch this garbage team that the coaching staff attempts to put out there on both sides of the ball.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Not as bad as losing out the rest of the year and watching the Colts and Dolphins get Luck and Jones.

I'm sorry, Tebow is terrible. Has he regressed since last year? These are the QB's that already look more promising then him that we're drafted the last 2 years:

Dalton
McCoy
Gabbert
Ponder
Newton
Bradford

There isn't a starting QB in the NFL playing worse than Tebow. The worst thing about it, for as bad as things are in Denver, Tebow can't even give us a glimpse of hope. We don't even have hope for that.

You want perspective? Denver has nothing more than mass questions at multiple positions on both sides of the ball, and a coaching staff that doesn't seem to understand what it's doing.

I wish I could fast forward the rest of the year so I don't have to watch this garbage team that the coaching staff attempts to put out there on both sides of the ball.

Really? Gabbert? You really aren't paying attention are you?

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/13987/blaine-gabbert

[BroncoStud]

Sorry Silk, but Blaine Gabbert is horrible. He lacks ANY playmaking ability whatsoever.

The rest I agree with. Tebow has a long way to go before he's ready. But, wasn't that ALWAYS the case? He was a developmental project from the onset. It isn't his fault that Orton played so dismally that the fans were in revolt.

Tebow needs to be spending every waking moment he has working on BASIC routes. I don't care if he needs to hire some WRs to work with him every day, he needs to do it.

[silkamilkamonico]

Really? Gabbert? You really aren't paying attention are you?

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/13987/blaine-gabbert



Are you kidding me? You're attempting to make an argument for Tebow playing better than Gabbert? Are you just looking at stats or are you watching the games?

SMH

Tebow's pathetic. Deal with it.

[silkamilkamonico]

Sorry Silk, but Blaine Gabbert is horrible. He lacks ANY playmaking ability whatsoever.

The rest I agree with. Tebow has a long way to go before he's ready. But, wasn't that ALWAYS the case? He was a developmental project from the onset. It isn't his fault that Orton played so dismally that the fans were in revolt.

Tebow needs to be spending every waking moment he has working on BASIC routes. I don't care if he needs to hire some WRs to work with him every day, he needs to do it.

So does Tebow. And he has an extra year over Gabbert.

I completely disagree with your second argument. No NFL team shouldn't be wasting time and money training a QB to make basic routes. They should be cutting their ties and drafting a new one.

[silkamilkamonico]

Really? Gabbert? You really aren't paying attention are you?

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/13987/blaine-gabbert

On second thought, you might be right. Both Tim Tebow and Blaine Gabbert are garbage NFL QB's and should not be in the NFL.

[BroncoStud]

So does Tebow. And he has an extra year over Gabbert.

I completely disagree with your second argument. No NFL team shouldn't be wasting time and money training a QB to make basic routes. They should be cutting their ties and drafting a new one.

Well, since we still have over half the season to play cutting ties and drafting a new one isn't a possibility - YET. And no one wants to see Orton go back in and waste reps. It's on Tebow, McCoy, and Fox to improve as this season progresses. They all suck as of this moment.

[cmc0605]

Good post.

I don't think anyone is surprised at us being a bad team right now. Fox and the coaching staff have made it clear they have a 3-year rebuilding process ahead of them, and presumably the owners/FO are well aware of "the plan." Unfortunately, on defense we don't have a whole lot to look forward to in the future. Our best players in the secondary are on the wrong side of 30 and will be out of the league soon. I'm not convinced Rahim Moore will be anything more than a "depth" player and I suspect his play has been the reason for him being benched recently, unless someone knows of an injury I am unaware of. Regardless, I don't know how good he will be. Von Miller is the only "future" linebacker. Presumably Williams and Mays may be serviceable for another few years. Dumervil is having a tough year but when healthy should be good, and Ayers seems to be coming around. Bunkley and Thomas are not bad but we still need another DT.

Offensively, the o-line is a work in progress. Some of this can be attributed to the need for replacements, and some of it is simply that half the line is very young and needs to build chemistry. I'm not sure what Orlando Franklin's future looks like but I have a hard time putting faith in him to be the blind-side protector for a lefty QB.

As for the RBs, I still like the duo we have with Moreno and McGahee. I know a lot of people are down on Moreno, but I still see a talented player who needs a line in front of him. The other thing is that it is very tough to run the ball with 8 guys in the box and no respect for the passing game. This is an issue with both Orton and Tebow, and the lack of any "prime time" receiver. If we had a solid vertical threat and a consistent line, Moreno could have a much better career in Denver. The conditions are simply not conducive for a consistently good RB. I could be wrong, but I've seen nothing to tell me he can't be the back for another few years.

Clearly there is a need for another big play receiver. There may be a place in the future for Decker and Thomas. They both seem talented enough, and I suspect if they had a top 10 QB under center they could both be great targets. Unfortunately it is tough to gauge that with no one who can deliver the ball to them if/when they get open. A lot of the "good, younger" QBs have a target though-- Stafford has Calvin Johnson, Newton has Steve Smith, Dalton is developing with A.J. Green, and so on. It's not clear to me we have a receiver who can consistently deal with #1 corners, and be an outlet for a developing QB.

As for the QB, I don't believe the future QB is on this roster yet. I was never a Tebow-maniac. I was never high on Orton, despite me defending him from time to time. The "Tebow needs developing" line is not convincing (although I do think we should play him until the end of the season). He is in his second season, and while he only has 5 starts, we should see the mold of what is to come. At this point in any good QBs career, we should at least be comfortable that they can throw the football ten yards down the field, or successfully make their hot read to a runningback or TE. He can't. And while the pass protection may not be great, Tebow cannot do much more than tuck his head and run, and occasionally deliver a nice pass. It shouldn't be newsworthy when he throws a good pass. The fact is that Tebow cannot throw a football consistently and will always have crappy mechanics that will be exploited at the NFL level. People can go on and on about how big his heart is, how good of a husband he will make, how he can "oooh-rahh" and yell loud in the huddle, but I want a QB who can lead and drop back and just deliver a 15 yard pass consistently. No exotic play books and wild cat schematics and "unique styles." If he can run, that is a good bonus, but like Vick, Newton, etc they need to scare you with the pass. Tebow isn't that person.

[silkamilkamonico]

Well, since we still have over half the season to play cutting ties and drafting a new one isn't a possibility - YET. And no one wants to see Orton go back in and waste reps. It's on Tebow, McCoy, and Fox to improve as this season progresses. They all suck as of this moment.

Tebow should be staying in the rest of the way. But I find it very hard to think he is going to make it. He has shown 0 improvement, and he is going to have to improve tenfold for the organization to even consider going with him next year.

[BroncoStud]

Tebow should be staying in the rest of the way. But I find it very hard to think he is going to make it. He has shown 0 improvement, and he is going to have to improve tenfold for the organization to even consider going with him next year.

Yep, he has a long way to go. The first step into getting better would be to learn some timing and get rid of the football. The 2nd step would be improving accuracy.

I've never seen a QB hold onto the football as long as he does.

[Dirk]

Yep, he has a long way to go. The first step into getting better would be to learn some timing and get rid of the football. The 2nd step would be improving accuracy.

I've never seen a QB hold onto the football as long as he does.

I totally agree that Tebow needs to get the timing and accuracy problem ironed out. Can he? I don't know at this point.

As far as holding onto the ball there is more to it than just Tebow. The recievers are not getting separation and the O-Line is putrid.

[Dreadnought]

You have to ask yourself what was our criteria for a rebuild? Mine was tear it down and build it the right way. Build through the draft. Don't overspend on over-the-hill FAs and keep only enough older vets to teach the younger guys the "right way" to do things. If you are going to sign FAs, find solid guys to fill gaps when necessary, but don't bring in premadonnas.

Right now, we're doing just that. We didn't sign any real big-name FAs that are costing us a ton to lose 45-10. The dead weight is either already gone, or will be at the end of the season. We didn't try to build up for some unrealistic run at the playoffs. We're playing the guys we drafted. A lot of our young guys are getting valuable game experience now, not sitting behind some mercenary FA who will be gone in a year or who will throw the team under the bus if we don't win or he doesn't get his touches.

It's painful to watch sometimes, but isn't that exactly what we really wanted and needed all along? This is win-win. If we end up losing most of our games, we get great draft picks and can continue to build through the draft and find solid, but not exorbitantly priced FAs. In the long run, all the work these young guys are getting will either pay dividends or at least we'll have a great barometer of who we should keep and who we shouldn't. These young guys get to grow as a team and suffer failure so they can earn success (that includes the coaching staff).

I'm excited about how all this could potentially turn out. This is the kind of rebuild we needed.

Again, totally agreed. I'm actually happier about the team's direction than I was a Year ago, and its not even close. I don't expect many wins this year, and I'm not even sure we'll see them next year either. Fox has a track record though. He took over a 1-15 Panthers team and had them winning in two years and an NFC Championship in four. I'm not sure he's exactly a brilliant coach, but he is a pro and I think he'll make progress in repairing the massive damage done to this organization. Just don't expect quick fix miracles.

I'm not even sure he'll be the guy to make us a top tier Playoff club, but if he can perform as a latter day John Ralston I think we should be happy with that. Maybe he'll build a foundation for a successor down the road. Either way I think he is in "stop the bleeding" mode now, and he is doing it the right way.

[Tned]

When we were all complaining about Orton, this is what we were asking for. The mindset was, "if we're gonna lose anyway, might as well lose with Tebow and see if he's the guy". Any delusions people had about some magical resurrection of this franchise by one player with 4 starts to his credit was complete folly. Our problems have always been about more than just Orton or Tebow.

Our offense has to be the youngest in the NFL right now. Rookies and second year guys all over the place. Most of whom are still learning the game as they are playing. Isn't it telling that our starting RB is our oldest starting offensive player, by like 4 years, at a position where your career is normally over at 30? We're young, we're inexperienced, and the only way any of them will get better is by taking their lumps on the field.


The whole post was good, but this part definately is worth quoting.

[Lancane]

I totally agree that Tebow needs to get the timing and accuracy problem ironed out. Can he? I don't know at this point.

As far as holding onto the ball there is more to it than just Tebow. The recievers are not getting separation and the O-Line is putrid.

I'm not sure what game you watched bro...but most quarterbacks in this league would have had a field day with how open some of Denver's receivers were. Not their fault the ball was thrown either too high, too low or more at the defenders!

:lol:

[Dirk]

I'm not sure what game you watched bro...but most quarterbacks in this league would have had a field day with how open some of Denver's receivers were. Not their fault the ball was thrown either too high, too low or more at the defenders!

:lol:

I'm not saying that they never were open. We have had that problem for quite some time with the receivers not getting separation. Add to that the offensive line folding like a card house and it spells disaster from the moment that ball is hiked.

We need 2 OTs right now.

[Bugs Baloney]

All we need is a little "LUCK"!

[Lancane]

I'm not saying that they never were open. We have had that problem for quite some time with the receivers not getting separation. Add to that the offensive line folding like a card house and it spells disaster from the moment that ball is hiked.

We need 2 OTs right now.

When your quarterback takes a good minute and a half to view the field before even making a decision, chances are the line will not be able to hold. Does the line need to improve? Yes, but it's not that bad, Denver's offensive line was doing great for the last couple weeks, up till Tebow got the nod so I could see us adding someone at right tackle or maybe kicking Clady over and drafting a left tackle, or even maybe a center.

And his throws were going to God knows where, maybe to Arkansas, he nearly completed a pass to the ball boy! His accuracy was crap even with open receivers, he just didn't pass it to them or decided they didn't need ankles or maybe he felt that they needed to grow taller, one of the three.

[Lancane]

All we need is a little "LUCK"!

:lol:

[Npba900]

Depends on who you ask i guess. When i talked to guys like Tned a couple of weeks ago (not just him) they would tell me that we've been in every game and that we were actually better than we were. I personally didnt see it on opening day and havent seen it since. And while i am totally on board with a rebuild how long are we talking? Personally, i think we have some nice young talent on this team. However, i have to agree with the sentiment that we cant really afford to have Tebow just be "ok". If we want to build a legacy again its going to have to be a home run with the QB position. And if by chance Tebow is just average this year and we go into next year as him as the starter without drafting a QB this year than how much does that set us back?



Agreed.



Again, agreed.



I totally agree with you. This is what i wanted from day one. Again, the loss doesnt really bother me per se because i didnt expect to win it anyway. Especially with McGahee down but i did expect a much better performance from Tebow and that is a little bit surprising to me. He could get better but we shall see how it plays out. But, i dont think its necessarily a bad thing to critique the problem areas on this team whether they are young or not.

As far as coaching, McCoy is a bum but thats really up to Fox to fix if he feels there is a problem there. I only point out the problems with Tebow because he is leading the offense and deep down i want him to succeed so we dont have to draft another QB. It just doesnt look like he's going to make it. IMO

We can all agree that EFX have the Broncos in a rebuilding mode. However, when you rebuild you must start at the QB position. Right now Denver has 4 QB's on its roster that are either a long term project (Tebow and Webb) or career backups (Orton and Quinn). This why if EFX have a chance to draft Landry Jones in 2012, they must lift Heaven and Earth to do just that.

Fox would be an absolute fool to hang his coaching career on whether or not Tebow develops well enough to become the Broncos starting franchise QB.

Drafting a QB with our number one pick in 2012 is not an insult to Tebow or giving up on Tebow due to the object rawness and mechanically-fundamentally unsoundness Tebow is at this point in his career. Tebow needs to be pushed competitively at the QB position by QB's who can play from the Pocket.

Nothing in Tebow's game thus far say's he deserves 2-4 years to develop into a starting QB nor in 2-4 years would he be a legitimate starting QB in the NFL. However, a Landry Jones vs Tebow battle for the starting job between 2012-2013 should set the record straight for a clear cut long-term starting 10-15 year Franchise QB for the Denver Broncos.

[dunk7]

I'm just hoping two wins is "good" enough to land us Landry Jones.

[Npba900]

All we need is a little "LUCK"!

All we need to do is to "Keep Up With The Joneses"! :D

[vandammage13]

Good Post Horse....

I have been really dissapointed with Tebow's play thus far...I really thought he would be better than what he has shown in the first two starts.

That being said, this is what most of us wanted in the sense that we had to see what we had in Tebow before the next draft, so I am just fine with keeping Tebow in there.

I still think there is a chance that he can improve before season's end and show that he has the potential to become a good QB. I'm not going to bail on the guy after just two games.

He's still got 9 games to show marked improvement, so lets give him that chance and if he starts looking good, then great...If he continues to stink it up then at least we will know for sure what we have and can move on.

I'm fine with losing with Tebow this year rather than him sitting on the bench and not knowing what we have while Orton starts and produces the same results.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Rebuilding is painful. Watching a young QB that probably needed another year on the bench struggle is painful. Thinking about which college QB we are going to draft with probably a top 5 pick is painful. That is what it is, a painful rebuilding year.

At least our young guys are getting experience, and we can really test out a young QB without any ramifications. Hopefully, this is just a painful year so we can make some strides next year. Keep the faith Bronco brethren.

:beer:

[MasterShake]

Good Post Horse....

I have been really dissapointed with Tebow's play thus far...I really thought he would be better than what he has shown in the first two starts.

That being said, this is what most of us wanted in the sense that we had to see what we had in Tebow before the next draft, so I am just fine with keeping Tebow in there.

I still think there is a chance that he can improve before season's end and show that he has the potential to become a good QB. I'm not going to bail on the guy after just two games.

He's still got 9 games to show marked improvement, so lets give him that chance and if he starts looking good, then great...If he continues to stink it up then at least we will know for sure what we have and can move on.

I'm fine with losing with Tebow this year rather than him sitting on the bench and not knowing what we have while Orton starts and produces the same results.

Great thread and posts. I agree with most of the sentiments here in regards to the wait and see approach. I took my son to the Boo at the Zoo yesterday while the game was on and just kind of kept track on my phone. I knew we were going to lose and it was going to be ugly. Why? Because we have a pretty bad team. When our QB isn't throwing over our recievers, they are dropping passes. Our secondary's weakness is any part not covered by Champ Bailey, and our conservative coaching scheme would be great if our best RB wasn't sitting on the sidelines with a broken hand. Any one of our three QB's would have struggled yesterday against that D-Line, but Tebow sure as hell gave his critics a lot of fuel even when he did have time to throw. The only other QB who had just as bad (or not worse) of a game yesterday is Tony Romo.

Now I'm not saying I believe in Tebow, want Orton back, or think Quinn should have a shot because as many have said here our whole team is full of holes. The fact is I just don't know what to make of this team. This whole season is a tryout for the next and hopefully we have some key pieces that we can move forward with. I for one and happy with Von Miller, and our O-Line is starting to gel. Decker is quickly becoming a good weapon, but thats about it. I'm just going to try and shrug off other opinions aside from my own and just watch the rest of the season, and if things get worse then at least we know what we need to fix next year. I just can't help but enjoy my Broncos on a Sunday, but we better not get blown out again like that this season.

On a side note, one good thing that may come of this is that some of those god awful "fans" who let that Lions reciever jump into the South Stands will give up their season tickets so someone like me could go to the games. I would have jammed his eyes through his facemask or at least dumped a beer on him. I can't believe they let that happen. :mad:

[G_Money]

I guess a loss like yesterday doesn’t hurt me as much because the Broncos have acknowledged that they suck and are holding tryouts for next year.

Lynch had pretty good (if repetitive) commentary all game, but I really liked one statement: this is where we find out who still wants to win, who is giving 100% toward that endeavor, and who we want to build around moving forward with this organization.

We are a PROUD organization, but it has been a long, LONG time since we were this low. I look at the players on this team and I wonder how many will be here next year. I wonder how the rookies will contribute going forward and if we got more than one long-term starter. I see the vets and question their worth.

And I see Tebow and REALLY question if he can do what I want him to do, which is to improve enough through the end of the year to prevent us from drafting another quarterback in the first round.

But that’s why they play the games – to show us who can play, and who can coach…and who can’t.


On a side note, one good thing that may come of this is that some of those god awful "fans" who let that Lions reciever jump into the South Stands will give up their season tickets so someone like me could go to the games. I would have jammed his eyes through his facemask or at least dumped a beer on him. I can't believe they let that happen.

:mad: I was sooooo pissed that they didn't throw him off there hard enough for him to break something. Rip his helmet off. Whatever.

If you want the Broncos to defend home field, then it's your job as a fan to do that too. It was disgraceful the memory of South Standers of years gone by.

~G

[vandammage13]

Here's more perspective for you:

Granted these are just stats, and as we all know stats don't tell the whole story, but for what its worth take a look....
-------------------------------------------------
T. Romo: 18/35, 203YDS, 5.8YPA, 1TD, 1INT, 66.7QBR

J. Beck: 20/33, 208YDS, 6.3YPA, 0TD, 2INT, 53.6QBR

C. Painter: 26/49, 250YDS, 5.1YPA, 0TD, 2INT, 50.6QBR

M. Moore: 13/22, 138YDS, 6.3YPA, 0TD, 1INT, 58.5QBR

K. Kolb: 10/21, 153YDS, 7.3YPA, 1TD, 1INT, 68.2QBR

B. Gabbert:10/30, 97YDS, 3.2YPA, 1TD, 2INT, 26.7QBR

T. Tebow: 18/39, 172YDS, 4.4YPA, 1TD, 1INT, 56.8QBR
--------------------------------------------------
None of these guys are what you would call world beaters other than Romo (Kolb was supposed to be), but its not like people are coming down on them like they are Tebow.

I'm not trying to make excuses for Tebow here...He's looked really bad, but while we're on the "perspective" topic, Tebow's mistakes (and accomplishments) are magnified 10x to what other QB's are...

All of these "worst QB ever" comments are a little out of line considering all of the other QB's listed above that had abysmal performances as well. Doesn't excuse Tebow's play, but keep in mind the guy is still cutting his teeth in this league. Calling him a lost cause after 5 starts is a little premature IMO.

[Mike]

Here's more perspective for you:

Granted these are just stats, and as we all know stats don't tell the whole story, but for what its worth take a look....
-------------------------------------------------
T. Romo: 18/35, 203YDS, 5.8YPA, 1TD, 1INT, 66.7QBR

J. Beck: 20/33, 208YDS, 6.3YPA, 0TD, 2INT, 53.6QBR

C. Painter: 26/49, 250YDS, 5.1YPA, 0TD, 2INT, 50.6QBR

M. Moore: 13/22, 138YDS, 6.3YPA, 0TD, 1INT, 58.5QBR

K. Kolb: 10/21, 153YDS, 7.3YPA, 1TD, 1INT, 68.2QBR

B. Gabbert:10/30, 97YDS, 3.2YPA, 1TD, 2INT, 26.7QBR

T. Tebow: 18/39, 172YDS, 4.4YPA, 1TD, 1INT, 56.8QBR
--------------------------------------------------
None of these guys are what you would call world beaters other than Romo (Kolb was supposed to be), but its not like people are coming down on them like they are Tebow.

I'm not trying to make excuses for Tebow here...He's looked really bad, but while we're on the "perspective" topic, Tebow's mistakes (and accomplishments) are magnified 10x to what other QB's are...

All of these "worst QB ever" comments are a little out of line considering all of the other QB's listed above that had abysmal performances as well. Doesn't excuse Tebow's play, but keep in mind the guy is still cutting his teeth in this league. Calling him a lost cause after 5 starts is a little premature IMO.

The main issue that I see out of Tebow is how disjointed every play looks when he is in. He looks confused, the defense looks like it is on PCP, and it is impossible to focus on what the rest of the offense is doing. It makes for tough watching football.

While I am captain of the fire McCoy bandwagon, Tebow's composure is a large contributor to the failings on the offense. Hopefully the game will start slowing down for him and he will start showing more poise.

[vandammage13]

The main issue that I see out of Tebow is how disjointed every play looks when he is in. He looks confused, the defense looks like it is on PCP, and it is impossible to focus on what the rest of the offense is doing. It makes for tough watching football.

While I am captain of the fire McCoy bandwagon, Tebow's composure is a large contributor to the failings on the offense. Hopefully the game will start slowing down for him and he will start showing more poise.

I agree...

To me, it seems that it is the mental side of the game that is keeping Tebow from playing well, moreso than his physical skills.

I do think that if he gets the mental part down that his accuracy would improve as it would help him find the right read and deliver the ball on time. That is only something that can be helped with experience and repetition.

It remains to be seen as to whether he can get the mental part down...It takes some guys time for this and others are never able to get it.

Whether Tebow will ever be able to get it is an unknown as of now, but we do have the rest of the season to find out.

[tomjonesrocks]

I want to see Tebow start every game the rest of the year. Why play Quinn or Orton when both are gone after this year? I would have been open to starting Quinn week 1 over Orton--but now I don't see the point.

This entire offense is horrific. Let Tebow get his head beat in. Let him try to improve. If he can't, you take BPA with the high draft pick next year and either try to convert Tebow to TE if he is willing or cut him.

Might as well let Tebow play out the string now though--embarrassing as it is to watch.

[Juriga72]

I so want Cutler back.....

[vandammage13]

I want to see Tebow start every game the rest of the year. Why play Quinn or Orton when both are gone after this year? I would have been open to starting Quinn week 1 over Orton--but now I don't see the point.

This entire offense is horrific. Let Tebow get his head beat in. Let him try to improve. If he can't, you take BPA with the high draft pick next year and either try to convert Tebow to TE if he is willing or cut him.

Might as well let Tebow play out the string now though--embarrassing as it is to watch.

TT would be the best TE on the team if he made the switch, but that's not saying much (if that says anything about how bad this team is).

[Tned]

I so want Cutler back.....

Unfortunately, it's like the bad luck of losing a player to a career ending injury. It's a blow to the team, but it can't be undone. That was just one of many McDaniels blunders that in the best case, will take the team a couple more years to dig out from.

[tomjonesrocks]

...will take the team a couple more years to dig out from.

Or 10. Or 20.

Edit: Oh, sorry. You said "best case".

[arapaho2]

I agree...

To me, it seems that it is the mental side of the game that is keeping Tebow from playing well, moreso than his physical skills.

I do think that if he gets the mental part down that his accuracy would improve as it would help him find the right read and deliver the ball on time. That is only something that can be helped with experience and repetition.

It remains to be seen as to whether he can get the mental part down...It takes some guys time for this and others are never able to get it.

Whether Tebow will ever be able to get it is an unknown as of now, but we do have the rest of the season to find out.


how do you build up a struggling qbs mental part of his game?

by useing 3 step drops and quick routes...nothing to think about, drop and pass, shotgun quick routes, bubble screens...get him going and confindent first

i dunno if tebow will ever be the man here...but what i hate is saying were gonna see what he's got...and then have shit ass game plans to get him going...lets be real

we have a very suspect line in pass protection, and when the norm playing tebow seems to be 8 in the box and bring heat....we can no longer insist on 2 wr go routes is the best way to evaluate him...its said the TE is struggling qbs best friend...wheres ours in this game plan?

his accuracy needs to be fixed but our game plans are shit for developing any sort of mental aptitude

[I Eat Staples]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but have you considered that maybe Tebow just isn't a smart guy? Not trying to diss him or anything, but wasn't his degree in community service? QB is the one position in football where your mental abilities are just as important as your physical ones. Clearly Tebow is an athletic freak, but does he just not have the intelligence to play QB?

This could be said for several QBs who were great athletes but failed in the NFL. One reason most running QBs are bad at reading defenses is because they just aren't smart. How often is a person gifted mentally and physically? There are athletes like that out there, but they're very rare. That's one reason Andrew Luck is one of the best prospects to come out in years. He's an extremely bright kid, he's very athletic, and he has all the tools needed to be a successful QB.

[tomjonesrocks]

One reason most running QBs are bad at reading defenses is because they just aren't smart.

Well, he is super-religious--a sure sign of low intelligence.

Oh, sorry--wrong forum. :shocked:

[silkamilkamonico]

Here's more perspective for you:

Granted these are just stats, and as we all know stats don't tell the whole story, but for what its worth take a look....
-------------------------------------------------
T. Romo: 18/35, 203YDS, 5.8YPA, 1TD, 1INT, 66.7QBR

J. Beck: 20/33, 208YDS, 6.3YPA, 0TD, 2INT, 53.6QBR

C. Painter: 26/49, 250YDS, 5.1YPA, 0TD, 2INT, 50.6QBR

M. Moore: 13/22, 138YDS, 6.3YPA, 0TD, 1INT, 58.5QBR

K. Kolb: 10/21, 153YDS, 7.3YPA, 1TD, 1INT, 68.2QBR

B. Gabbert:10/30, 97YDS, 3.2YPA, 1TD, 2INT, 26.7QBR

T. Tebow: 18/39, 172YDS, 4.4YPA, 1TD, 1INT, 56.8QBR
--------------------------------------------------
None of these guys are what you would call world beaters other than Romo (Kolb was supposed to be), but its not like people are coming down on them like they are Tebow.

I'm not trying to make excuses for Tebow here...He's looked really bad, but while we're on the "perspective" topic, Tebow's mistakes (and accomplishments) are magnified 10x to what other QB's are...

All of these "worst QB ever" comments are a little out of line considering all of the other QB's listed above that had abysmal performances as well. Doesn't excuse Tebow's play, but keep in mind the guy is still cutting his teeth in this league. Calling him a lost cause after 5 starts is a little premature IMO.

The only perspective here is we aren't the only organization with a shitty QB.

Tebow sucks, and trying to somehow vindicate his suckage against other shitty QB's is a terrible argument, IMHO. It's like saying there's perspective in killing children because Hitler tried to eliminate an entire race of people.

[Nomad]

Good Post Horse....

I have been really dissapointed with Tebow's play thus far...I really thought he would be better than what he has shown in the first two starts.

That being said, this is what most of us wanted in the sense that we had to see what we had in Tebow before the next draft, so I am just fine with keeping Tebow in there.

I still think there is a chance that he can improve before season's end and show that he has the potential to become a good QB. I'm not going to bail on the guy after just two games.

He's still got 9 games to show marked improvement, so lets give him that chance and if he starts looking good, then great...If he continues to stink it up then at least we will know for sure what we have and can move on.

I'm fine with losing with Tebow this year rather than him sitting on the bench and not knowing what we have while Orton starts and produces the same results.

Right on, vandam! Give Tebow his 9 games and go from there.

[weazel]

I had a pretty good perspective of how bad timmy is right in front of the screen on Sunday