PDA

View Full Version : Eric Mangini says Broncos should build a spread around Tebow.



Bullgator
10-25-2011, 11:44 PM
In an apparent 180 this week Mangini defends Tebows play and explains why you have to build an offense around Tebow no matter the cost even if that means bringing in personnel to do so. The link is at the bottom.

Ive been arguing this to a few people around here and only for the sake of arguing with me, because its me, they say that you dont change systems you change the player. I personally think that is wrong because you are not dealing with lemmings but rather different and unique skillsets.

I also think that its wrong because unlike college where you keep the same system and recruit accordingly, you may have the same QB (hopefully) for 10-15 years not just 4 and so it becomes worth it to customize you offense to your personnel rather than neuter you current players to fit your system. (a system that is nothing special btw)

some say that this stunts your QBs growth. Hogwash. Playing prostyle from under center is not the goal. The goal is winning. IDC what system you use to do it. So perfecting the 3-5-7 step drop is not the goal, rather is a lateral move. You would stunt a QBs growth by making him less effective.

Does this mean that Tim should not get better in the pocket? Of course he should. Changing an offense to take advantage of TTs strengths will not stunt his growth. Thats like saying the you should never throw jump balls to Megatron because it will stunt his route running ability. :confused:

Even in the spread you are in the pocket... the difference is you start out there rather than backpeddling there.

IMO there is not a leg to stand on for those who argue to keep the same O and force TT to play like a Manning when clearly he is a Tebow.

The results of his play make my case for me. 57 points in the that last 4 fourth quarters hes played in, mostly (about 75%) in the spread.

Does that mean we call up Urb and steal his playbook and play the spread 100% of the time? No! You mix in under center plays about 25% mostly for the running game and bootlegs and PA passes to keep em honest... as well as a healthy dose of draws and delays to the backs out of the gun to have a nice healthy running game. If anyone recalls alot of the rushing success was McGahee out of the gun. Obviously you have to mix it up.

The most important thing is the no huddle IMO. Always better to keep a D on their heels than on their toes.


http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=7148308

sneakers
10-25-2011, 11:48 PM
Mangina

jhildebrand
10-25-2011, 11:49 PM
Listening to Mangini on NFL matters would be like listening to the pope on dating matters. It doesn't make a lot of sense. The guy is out of a job for a reason.

Bullgator
10-25-2011, 11:53 PM
I believe hes right on this one. Timbo is what he is and Kyle Orton he is not. So stop trying to make him play like Kyle.

BroncoStud
10-25-2011, 11:53 PM
Mangini has no talent. He sucks as a HC and he sucks as a voice on ESPN. But he's right about this.

BroncoStud
10-25-2011, 11:54 PM
I believe hes right on this one. Timbo is what he is and Kyle Orton he is not. So stop trying to make him play like Kyle.

Um, last I checked Kyle Orton needs to run the spread as well. He can't do much in a Pro-Style offense, that's been proven between his time here and in Chicago. His only decent years in college and NFL were in the spread.

jhildebrand
10-25-2011, 11:55 PM
I believe hes right on this one. Timbo is what he is and Kyle Orton he is not. So stop trying to make him play like Kyle.

I say let the kid play in whatever system Fox deems he wants. I don't agree with Mangini that you revamp everything for the kid.

I want to see if Tebow can perform without any shackles. I want Fox and company to give him a game plan similar to the one Kyle had against GB.

Bullgator
10-25-2011, 11:56 PM
Um, last I checked Kyle Orton needs to run the spread as well. He can't do much in a Pro-Style offense, that's been proven between his time here and in Chicago. His only decent years in college and NFL were in the spread.

Conceded... pick random "Pro-Style" QB and replace.

Northman
10-26-2011, 12:01 AM
I say let the kid play in whatever system Fox deems he wants. I don't agree with Mangini that you revamp everything for the kid.

I want to see if Tebow can perform without any shackles. I want Fox and company to give him a game plan similar to the one Kyle had against GB.


Its one thing to build something around a player. But its something entirely different when said player has a problem with accuracy. It just is and im sure Fox and Elway are watching what he does the rest of the year to determine where to go with Tebow and IF they need to build around him.

Makes no sense building anything around a player if they cant improve on their passing percentage. I know none of the Tebow fans want to hear that but thats the reality of the NFL. Its a passing league and you need to be able to pass the ball in order to win championships.

If Tebow can get himself to a point where he can be a passer first/runner second than he will be good to go. If he cant, he will be replaced.

Bullgator
10-26-2011, 12:01 AM
I say let the kid play in whatever system Fox deems he wants. I don't agree with Mangini that you revamp everything for the kid.

I want to see if Tebow can perform without any shackles. I want Fox and company to give him a game plan similar to the one Kyle had against GB.

Tim would fall flat on his face.

The problem is he is still trying to take the snap cleanly and execute the mechanics of the drop rather than it being second nature while what he SHOULD be doing during the drop is keeping his eyes down field and watching the routs develop so that when he gets to the end of that drop he knows where he is going with the ball already.

Its going to take tim about 10,000 reps IMO to get that down enough.. thats I think 2 years down the road. You can work on that BUT you have to live in the now and use what the kid has available. Maybe work that shit in over a couple years. For now hes better taking the snap from the gun and watching the routes develop in ready position.

the diff is night and day. PLUS his added running ability out of the gun is a huge advantage.

BroncoStud
10-26-2011, 12:01 AM
I say let the kid play in whatever system Fox deems he wants. I don't agree with Mangini that you revamp everything for the kid.

I want to see if Tebow can perform without any shackles. I want Fox and company to give him a game plan similar to the one Kyle had against GB.

Think Chan Gailey/Tyler Thigpen. That's what we need to do. Of course there isn't an offensive mind even close to Gailey's on this staff so I won't hold my breath.

jhildebrand
10-26-2011, 12:06 AM
Think Chan Gailey/Tyler Thigpen. That's what we need to do. Of course there isn't an offensive mind even close to Gailey's on this staff so I won't hold my breath.

Do you mean Gailey and Fitzpatrick? :confused:

underrated29
10-26-2011, 12:07 AM
Maybe its just me but why do these teams HAVE to run a certain scheme or formation of offense..?

Why not run a part of the spread, the power I, the WCO, etc etc...Plus some new stuff. To me, and I could be so wrong here, but everything people are doing is recycled stuff. Stuff that other teams run just disguised in a formation or run against a certain D..

Why not get creative with it a little. Tailor to your guys skills but add some new stuff. I do not mean wrinkles either. I mean something that is not seen every game by everyteam.

It is just the ultimate conservative league. New is just not encouraged it seems.

jhildebrand
10-26-2011, 12:09 AM
Tim would fall flat on his face.

The problem is he is still trying to take the snap cleanly and execute the mechanics of the drop rather than it being second nature while what he SHOULD be doing during the drop is keeping his eyes down field and watching the routs develop so that when he gets to the end of that drop he knows where he is going with the ball already.

Its going to take tim about 10,000 reps IMO to get that down enough.. thats I think 2 years down the road. You can work on that BUT you have to live in the now and use what the kid has available. Maybe work that shit in over a couple years. For now hes better taking the snap from the gun and watching the routes develop in ready position.

the diff is night and day. PLUS his added running ability out of the gun is a huge advantage.

The Orton/GB game involved a lot of running, a lot of movement of the pocket i.e. play action and a good mix of passes. BUT A LOT OF SHOT GUN. It also involved some short passes early to get Orton in rhythm.

if Tebow can't come out and make a go of executing something like that then I have bad news for you...

I don't think he will fall flat on his face. Look at last year's Houston and SD games.

Bullgator
10-26-2011, 12:09 AM
Maybe its just me but why do these teams HAVE to run a certain scheme or formation of offense..?

Why not run a part of the spread, the power I, the WCO, etc etc...Plus some new stuff. To me, and I could be so wrong here, but everything people are doing is recycled stuff. Stuff that other teams run just disguised in a formation or run against a certain D..

Why not get creative with it a little. Tailor to your guys skills but add some new stuff. I do not mean wrinkles either. I mean something that is not seen every game by everyteam.

It is just the ultimate conservative league. New is just not encouraged it seems.

not enough practice time to divide up.. unless you want to run only a couple of plays from each and that would not be very productive. You still need a backbone style of play with variant plays to counter whatever D they will face, in said style.

Bullgator
10-26-2011, 12:13 AM
The Orton/GB game involved a lot of running, a lot of movement of the pocket i.e. play action and a good mix of passes. It also involved some short passes early to get Orton in rhythm.

if Tebow can't come out and make a go of executing something like that then I have bad news for you...

I don't think he will fall flat on his face. Look at last year's Houston and SD games.

I think hes not ready to win like that. Hes still a better choice in Orton or Quinn thanks to the clutch gene but my stance at least until he gets a full offseason is that he should run what hes comfortable with.

I got news for you guys... if that last game taught us anything is that we are not out of it yet.... this team could still make the playoffs. Improbale but then so was both 13 point fourth quarter comebacks.

we need to play for the now.

BroncoStud
10-26-2011, 12:16 AM
Do you mean Gailey and Fitzpatrick? :confused:

No, I'm talking KC Chiefs a few years ago when they had to start Tyler Thigpen and Gailey installed a spread offense and Thigpen flourished.

Denvernut707
10-26-2011, 12:18 AM
Half the league runs some form of spread offense as the NFL continues to be more of a pass happy league. 300 yards isn't shit anymore that's just an average day for quite a few qbs. I know Tebow is more than capable of these caliber of games and I think his legs give him the advantage in the red zone.

NorCalBronco7
10-26-2011, 12:25 AM
Your whole issue here seems to be the Broncos fitting the scheme around Tebow. I actually agree with you that Tebow would perform best in a shotgun based offense, and that would require Tebow to be trusted as a pocket passer, or at least be a somewhat consistent passer, but that just hasnt happened yet. The offense will be built around its strength and thus far, and as a whole its unfortunately not passing. The offenses strength right now is the running game. You as a Tebow nuthugger should be hoping for a more balanced offense instead of a radical change to a shotgun/spread offense because that wont instantly happen unless Tebow instantly becomes a more accurate Qb.

Bullgator
10-26-2011, 12:40 AM
Your whole issue here seems to be the Broncos fitting the scheme around Tebow. I actually agree with you that Tebow would perform best in a shotgun based offense, and that would require Tebow to be trusted as a pocket passer, or at least be a somewhat consistent passer, but that just hasnt happened yet. The offense will be built around its strength and thus far as a whole, its unfortunately not passing. The offenses strength right now is the running game. You as a Tebow nuthugger should be hoping for a more balanced offense instead of a radical change to a shotgun/spread offense because that wont instantly happen unless Tebow instantly becomes a more accurate Qb.

I disagree that he is not a consistent and accurate passer.

One must look at the circumstances that lead to his inconsistencies.

As I stated before he has no chance to make progression read from under center right now. Because all his RAM is taken up with the act of not bobling the snap and dropping back in a technical way. He actually looks good physically now when he drops back... thats a testament to his work ethic.

BUT! He is not doing the most important part of the drop back... not the physical act of dropping back but the software aspect of scanning the routes and making decisions DURING the drop.

As it is he is doing all the cerebral stuff at the END of the drop and by then the timing routes are well over with.. he looks up and it is way too late in the route for just starting to make a decision... he should have made a decision and be throwing already.

This is why you see him get happy feet with a "um ok, im back here now... but now what?" look. the "second guessing" we all saw was this.

This lack of timing and confidence will KILL your accuracy as we saw. he was like 3-9...

Ahhhh but then put him in his element where his mental map is deeply wired and all of the sudden he is 9-13.

The boy can throw.. and can throw accurately. Not elite accuracy, but he could be a 60% passer in this league.

Lancane
10-26-2011, 12:42 AM
Good for Mangini, I guess we should listen what he has to say...after all he is a winning coach, ummmm...never mind, scratch that.

:laugh:

NorCalBronco7
10-26-2011, 01:36 AM
I disagree that he is not a consistent and accurate passer.
One must look at the circumstances that lead to his inconsistencies.

:confused: :lol:


As I stated before he has no chance to make progression read from under center right now. Because all his RAM is taken up with the act of not bobling the snap and dropping back in a technical way. He actually looks good physically now when he drops back... thats a testament to his work ethic.

BUT! He is not doing the most important part of the drop back... not the physical act of dropping back but the software aspect of scanning the routes and making decisions DURING the drop.

As it is he is doing all the cerebral stuff at the END of the drop and by then the timing routes are well over with.. he looks up and it is way too late in the route for just starting to make a decision... he should have made a decision and be throwing already.

This is why you see him get happy feet with a "um ok, im back here now... but now what?" look. the "second guessing" we all saw was this.

This lack of timing and confidence will KILL your accuracy as we saw. he was like 3-9...

Ahhhh but then put him in his element where his mental map is deeply wired and all of the sudden he is 9-13.

The boy can throw.. and can throw accurately. Not elite accuracy, but he could be a 60% passer in this league.

All Qbs in the NFL at some point in every single game takes snaps from under center. Tebow must get better from there. Tebow running a shotgun based offense wont solve this fundamental problem in his game.

If Im not mistaken, the Broncos suited 4 wrs sunday. 4. This team isnt, and was never, intended to be shotgun based under Fox. To throw out the playbook now, midseason, and build an entirely new offensive scheme, would simply never happen. Im fine with the Broncos bringing along Tebow slowly and teaching him the basics of the Qb postion now because he will at some point in every game need to go under center and perform.

You have this false vision in your head that Tebow can or has to operate outside the demands of an NFL Qb (Im sure you know what they are, your just too glossy eyed to see). Wake up and be real, because the Qb positions has demands that ALL players must meet. Thats why its the hardest position in sports.

TXBRONC
10-26-2011, 06:41 AM
I really don't care what Mangini has to say about the matter. Besides running the spread wont keep him air mailing passes.

Tned
10-26-2011, 07:19 AM
Its one thing to build something around a player. But its something entirely different when said player has a problem with accuracy. It just is and im sure Fox and Elway are watching what he does the rest of the year to determine where to go with Tebow and IF they need to build around him.

Makes no sense building anything around a player if they cant improve on their passing percentage. I know none of the Tebow fans want to hear that but thats the reality of the NFL. Its a passing league and you need to be able to pass the ball in order to win championships.

If Tebow can get himself to a point where he can be a passer first/runner second than he will be good to go. If he cant, he will be replaced.

Currently, I'm writing off Miami as nerves due to all the crap that led up to him starting. I had reviewed all his passes from the three starts last year and he was much better last year. Not Brady/Manning/Rodgers good, but better than this year.

That said, I agree. It would be one thing if he has a 65% completion rate from shotgun/spread, and 50% under center. Then, there is a valid argument for changing the scheme to make him more comfortable, and then in time when he becomes more comfortable under center, you use more and more over time.

Tned
10-26-2011, 07:26 AM
If Im not mistaken, the Broncos suited 4 wrs sunday. 4. This team isnt, and was never, intended to be shotgun based under Fox. To throw out the playbook now, midseason, and build an entirely new offensive scheme, would simply never happen. Im fine with the Broncos bringing along Tebow slowly and teaching him the basics of the Qb postion now because he will at some point in every game need to go under center and perform.


FWIW, the Broncos had five WRs active on Sunday. Decker, Royal, D. Thomas, Willis and Crosby.

UnderArmour
10-26-2011, 08:00 AM
:confused: :lol:



All Qbs in the NFL at some point in every single game takes snaps from under center. Tebow must get better from there. Tebow running a shotgun based offense wont solve this fundamental problem in his game.

If Im not mistaken, the Broncos suited 4 wrs sunday. 4. This team isnt, and was never, intended to be shotgun based under Fox. To throw out the playbook now, midseason, and build an entirely new offensive scheme, would simply never happen. Im fine with the Broncos bringing along Tebow slowly and teaching him the basics of the Qb postion now because he will at some point in every game need to go under center and perform.

You have this false vision in your head that Tebow can or has to operate outside the demands of an NFL Qb (Im sure you know what they are, your just too glossy eyed to see). Wake up and be real, because the Qb positions has demands that ALL players must meet. Thats why its the hardest position in sports.

McCoy was the offensive coordinator last year under McDaniels. Most of our offensive players are familiar with the Josh McDaniels offense that we ran last year. That Josh McDaniels offense had lots of spread looks in it. Are you honestly telling me professionals that spend literally the entire day working on football cannot re-familiarize themselves with what they had already ran the year before? Orton struggled with the current offense and Tebow is struggling with the current offense. It simply does not work for this team that has been built to pass both under Shanahan and under McDaniels. We need to have a game plan for the players we have and we had Tebow/Orton. The spread look and letting our guys throw the ball 25-30 times a game gives us the best chance to win. We need to pass to set up the run.

Our offensive line is not one that can run to set up the pass; we have to pass to set up the run. You can't fix an offensive line to fit your philosophy in one offseason or even two offseasons; sometimes it takes half a decade before you have the line play you need to execute your philosophy due to contract commitments by previous regimes. And if the players are still playing at a high enough of a level but not fully carrying out the offensive philosophy, you can't justify moving them. This line, with the exception of Franklin, is a pass blocking line. This is not a mauling, smash mouth ground and pound line. If we want to be an elite team with the players we have, we have to pass to set up the run.

As I've said somewhere else, saying that we shouldn't adjust our scheme mid season is ridiculous. The Bears were letting Cutler get sacked 6-7 times a game. Know what they did against Minnesota and Tampa Bay? Lots of max protect and lots of running the football. That was a drastic change from what they were doing earlier in the year and as a result of their changes, the Bears are a team that looks like they have some life. And then when people say "oh well you shouldn't build an offense around one football player!" that is also ridiculous. The Indianapolis Colts won a Super Bowl building an entire football team, offense and defense, around a single football player. The Colts are a team that is built to take a lead to force the opposing team to pass, allowing Freeney and Mathis to tee off on the opposing quarterback. This year the Colts are probably going to go 0-16 or 1-15 without the one player that makes it work but with Manning, that is a 10-14 win team.

Bottom line is we need to go back to what we we had going right under McDaniels on offense. The problem with Josh's offense was that we could not run the ball when we needed to due to having defenses key in on the pass. With Tebow, defenses can't do that. They have to watch out for Tebow as a running threat. If we let Tebow run the same offense that Orton ran last year we could legitimately have an elite offense once Tebow gets a better feel for the game and his receivers. I would say we should incorporate more bootlegs, but unlike with using a spread, that actually would be putting in a new offense. Our quarterbacks know the spread. Our backs know the spread. Our receivers know the spread. Our coaching staff knows the spread. McCoy and Fox need to stop being stupid and use what gives us the best chance to win now. There is absolutely no way that Tebow is incapable of carrying out the level of execution he has in the 4th quarter to the other 3 quarters if the coaching staff gives him a chance to.

TXBRONC
10-26-2011, 08:41 AM
Your whole issue here seems to be the Broncos fitting the scheme around Tebow. I actually agree with you that Tebow would perform best in a shotgun based offense, and that would require Tebow to be trusted as a pocket passer, or at least be a somewhat consistent passer, but that just hasnt happened yet. The offense will be built around its strength and thus far, and as a whole its unfortunately not passing. The offenses strength right now is the running game. You as a Tebow nuthugger should be hoping for a more balanced offense instead of a radical change to a shotgun/spread offense because that wont instantly happen unless Tebow instantly becomes a more accurate Qb.

They can't remake the offense midstream that would be dumb to say the least. Even if were do that next season (assuming he's still the quarterback) he still has to improve his footwork.

claymore
10-26-2011, 08:46 AM
Tebow needs to win or G.T.F.O. Its not going to be easy, but he is just going to have to overcome it and win with an offense that sucks ass.

If he cant do that, we will be drafting someone that EFX wants.

JMO

Ravage!!!
10-26-2011, 10:06 AM
No, I'm talking KC Chiefs a few years ago when they had to start Tyler Thigpen and Gailey installed a spread offense and Thigpen flourished.

Sooooo much so, they replaced him. Thigpen never "flourished" in KC. Thats a MAJOR stretch of the word.

vandammage13
10-26-2011, 10:20 AM
Sooooo much so, they replaced him. Thigpen never "flourished" in KC. Thats a MAJOR stretch of the word.

Yeah "flourished" is probably not the right word to describe Thigpen's play that year.

He did put up pretty decent numbers though, even if it was in a Kyle Orton, hollow sort of way....

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-26-2011, 10:21 AM
I believe hes right on this one. Timbo is what he is and Kyle Orton he is not. So stop trying to make him play like Kyle.

Running some spread throughout the game is a good idea, BUT he still needs to get his drops down. It will make him a more complete player. I also think he can do it.

I get what you're saying though. "square peg, round hole"

I think a lot of what we saw the other day was a lack of continuity with his receivers. Let's not forget that he's only been practicing with DT for 4 days. Lloyd is gone. It should get better as the season goes on. He needs time to develop timing and trust with his receivers. Make no mistake however, a QB has to be able to throw a timing route. He can do it, he just needs time.

claymore
10-26-2011, 10:48 AM
We have no identity in this offense. I have no issue if we mold it after Tebow. If he does well, I dont care what we have to change.

MileHighCrew
10-26-2011, 10:50 AM
It would take advantage of Moreno more and the speed of Royal. I think DT would play well in the spread too.

claymore
10-26-2011, 10:51 AM
It would take advantage of Moreno more and the speed of Royal. I think DT would play well in the spread too.

Does the spread include a medic? :D

slim
10-26-2011, 10:51 AM
We have no identity in this offense. I have no issue if we mold it after Tebow. If he does well, I dont care what we have to change.

The only proble with going "all in", would be if he gets hurt (who else would be able to run the same type offense?).

I think both sides need to give a little. The coaches need to play more to his strengths and he needs to play better from the pocket.

claymore
10-26-2011, 10:53 AM
The only proble with going "all in", would be if he gets hurt (who else would be able to run the same type offense?).

I think both sides need to give a little. The coaches need to play more to his strengths and he needs to play better from the pocket.

Weber. Eff those other 2 Jabronies. Weber will take whatever shot he gets.

If Tebow goes down we are in the race for a QB in the draft so it really doesnt matter IMO.

He does need to get better in the pocket though.

MileHighCrew
10-26-2011, 10:53 AM
Does the spread include a medic? :D

You forgot to bold Moreno for the medic too.


I am playing the assuming they stay healthy game.

slim
10-26-2011, 10:54 AM
Weber. Eff those other 2 Jabronies. Weber will take whatever shot he gets.

If Tebow goes down we are in the race for a QB in the draft so it really doesnt matter IMO.

He does need to get better in the pocket though.

Fair enough.

vandammage13
10-26-2011, 10:57 AM
The only proble with going "all in", would be if he gets hurt (who else would be able to run the same type offense?).

I think both sides need to give a little. The coaches need to play more to his strengths and he needs to play better from the pocket.

I think you would have to sign or draft a Dan LeFevour or Colin Capernick type...Someone who could run that type of offense for a couple of weeks if Tebow got hurt.

If Tebow were out for the year then you would have problems because those guys probably don't have the size and intangibles that Tebow does to make it work long-term...

Then again, losing your starting QB for the year is usually a disaster no matter what type of offense you run.

arapaho2
10-26-2011, 11:24 AM
i think its way overboard to say we either go fullout spread offense or tebow fails....just as its overboard to say if he cant run a straight traditional passing offense right now, then he's gone

the guy has incredible intangibles...more importantly he has a rare thing...the clutch gene

what we need to do is simply tweek the offense around tebow to give him the best shot at aclimating to the nfl game

we ran a spread offense under mcd...i believe the problem was two fold, one being mcd insisting our built for zone blocking line become powerblockers overnight, the other orton...his play it safe, take the check down, crumble at first sign of pressure limited us

but those plays are still in the book...royal, thomas, willis, decker all are familier with them

that said our run game is improved, now its time to get our young qb going...im surely not the only one considering that alot of his terrible first game play was simply ...nerves, overamped, over thinking, because of the media hype and microscope put on him all week...i've seen him alot more accurate so i know he can play better

i say run the spread...maybe a 3 wide with TE chipping and releasing, and a back...or 4 wide,or 3 wide 2 te ...with some quick routes designed to get a rec open ....then a few deeper routes after the defense starts to bite

run that about 40-45% of the passing plays...run a drop back attack the remaining time with the same goal...designed routes with the best chance to get him in rythem and in the game

its simply rediculous to say we either have to go all in one way or the other

Bullgator
10-26-2011, 11:36 AM
The only proble with going "all in", would be if he gets hurt (who else would be able to run the same type offense?).

I think both sides need to give a little. The coaches need to play more to his strengths and he needs to play better from the pocket.

you already have 2+ years with the old style and you have Kyle O to run it.

Bullgator
10-26-2011, 11:38 AM
i think its way overboard to say we either go fullout spread offense or tebow fails....just as its overboard to say if he cant run a straight traditional passing offense right now, then he's gone

the guy has incredible intangibles...more importantly he has a rare thing...the clutch gene

what we need to do is simply tweek the offense around tebow to give him the best shot at aclimating to the nfl game

we ran a spread offense under mcd...i believe the problem was two fold, one being mcd insisting our built for zone blocking line become powerblockers overnight, the other orton...his play it safe, take the check down, crumble at first sign of pressure limited us

but those plays are still in the book...royal, thomas, willis, decker all are familier with them

that said our run game is improved, now its time to get our young qb going...im surely not the only one considering that alot of his terrible first game play was simply ...nerves, overamped, over thinking, because of the media hype and microscope put on him all week...i've seen him alot more accurate so i know he can play better

i say run the spread...maybe a 3 wide with TE chipping and releasing, and a back...or 4 wide,or 3 wide 2 te ...with some quick routes designed to get a rec open ....then a few deeper routes after the defense starts to bite

run that about 40-45% of the passing plays...run a drop back attack the remaining time with the same goal...designed routes with the best chance to get him in rythem and in the game

its simply rediculous to say we either have to go all in one way or the other

I can agree with this somewhat... but 65 to 75% IMO is better for now... as his dropback develops scale it down if you MUST

NightTerror218
10-26-2011, 11:52 AM
I say let the kid play in whatever system Fox deems he wants. I don't agree with Mangini that you revamp everything for the kid.

I want to see if Tebow can perform without any shackles. I want Fox and company to give him a game plan similar to the one Kyle had against GB.

Depending. When you the QB you are set on for several years you build around him with players that will improve on their strengths. For TT that would be TE with great hands and can block. That would be WR that are quick and with great hands, along with the WR that can fight for the ball when TT has to throw it up. It would also mean adjustment along the OL. Many teams build the offense around the QB why not us if they decide to go with TT? I see DT as the big WR that can fight for the ball in the air and fight off CB for it. Decker has amazing hands and run great routes. Royal is quick and could be a great slot WR for TT for the quick throws over middle. To build the offense around TT i think the team just needs to work on JT as a blocker and RB position and FB. TT does like Larson though.

slim
10-26-2011, 11:55 AM
you already have 2+ years with the old style and you have Kyle O to run it.

But nearly every QB in the league could come in and run that offense fairly easily (except Tebow).

I agree with Al, it's not really a matter of either/or.

Both sides need to meet somewhere in the middle. The coaches need to play to TT's strengths a little more and TT needs to be better in the pocket.

NightTerror218
10-26-2011, 12:04 PM
But nearly every QB in the league could come in and run that offense fairly easily (except Tebow).

I agree with Al, it's not really a matter of either/or.

Both sides need to meet somewhere in the middle. The coaches need to play to TT's strengths a little more and TT needs to be better in the pocket.

I agree. But can you tell me this. Sunday Tebow was just NOT having a bad day? All QBs have bad days, some of those would be 4 INTs games some others just cant hit the broad side of a barn. Kind of hard to judge based off 1 1/2 games this season where he outscored the other team in that time.

jlarsiii
10-26-2011, 12:05 PM
McCoy was the offensive coordinator last year under McDaniels. Most of our offensive players are familiar with the Josh McDaniels offense that we ran last year. That Josh McDaniels offense had lots of spread looks in it. Are you honestly telling me professionals that spend literally the entire day working on football cannot re-familiarize themselves with what they had already ran the year before? Orton struggled with the current offense and Tebow is struggling with the current offense. It simply does not work for this team that has been built to pass both under Shanahan and under McDaniels. We need to have a game plan for the players we have and we had Tebow/Orton. The spread look and letting our guys throw the ball 25-30 times a game gives us the best chance to win. We need to pass to set up the run.

Our offensive line is not one that can run to set up the pass; we have to pass to set up the run. You can't fix an offensive line to fit your philosophy in one offseason or even two offseasons; sometimes it takes half a decade before you have the line play you need to execute your philosophy due to contract commitments by previous regimes. And if the players are still playing at a high enough of a level but not fully carrying out the offensive philosophy, you can't justify moving them. This line, with the exception of Franklin, is a pass blocking line. This is not a mauling, smash mouth ground and pound line. If we want to be an elite team with the players we have, we have to pass to set up the run.

As I've said somewhere else, saying that we shouldn't adjust our scheme mid season is ridiculous. The Bears were letting Cutler get sacked 6-7 times a game. Know what they did against Minnesota and Tampa Bay? Lots of max protect and lots of running the football. That was a drastic change from what they were doing earlier in the year and as a result of their changes, the Bears are a team that looks like they have some life. And then when people say "oh well you shouldn't build an offense around one football player!" that is also ridiculous. The Indianapolis Colts won a Super Bowl building an entire football team, offense and defense, around a single football player. The Colts are a team that is built to take a lead to force the opposing team to pass, allowing Freeney and Mathis to tee off on the opposing quarterback. This year the Colts are probably going to go 0-16 or 1-15 without the one player that makes it work but with Manning, that is a 10-14 win team.

Bottom line is we need to go back to what we we had going right under McDaniels on offense. The problem with Josh's offense was that we could not run the ball when we needed to due to having defenses key in on the pass. With Tebow, defenses can't do that. They have to watch out for Tebow as a running threat. If we let Tebow run the same offense that Orton ran last year we could legitimately have an elite offense once Tebow gets a better feel for the game and his receivers. I would say we should incorporate more bootlegs, but unlike with using a spread, that actually would be putting in a new offense. Our quarterbacks know the spread. Our backs know the spread. Our receivers know the spread. Our coaching staff knows the spread. McCoy and Fox need to stop being stupid and use what gives us the best chance to win now. There is absolutely no way that Tebow is incapable of carrying out the level of execution he has in the 4th quarter to the other 3 quarters if the coaching staff gives him a chance to.

First, McDone totally revamped the offense (i.e. traded away all the talent) so there is no way you can relate the offense to Shanny. It is totally different with a power run scheme and spread looks. Right now this offense actually performs better at running the ball then passing, this year, with Tebow running the offense. It is a small sample size but that is the way it is

Second, the bears didn't adjust their scheme. Their offensive philosophy and play book are exactly the same as when they started the season. They adjusted their play calling. That is a big difference.

Third, using Manning is not a great example for Tebow right now. The colts didn't build around them until Manning developed into the beast that he has been. That is when they built around him and could get away with their many deficiencies that are now being exposed with him out of the lineup. Tebow isn't even in the same universe so building around a guy who hasn't even shown yet that he is worth it is really a bad idea. This can totally wait until Tebow proves himself which he clearly hasn't done yet.

Fourth, the only way your last point comes true is if Tebow can improve his accuracy ESPECIALLY from the pocket. That is a really big if...
Because Tebow clearly lacks in fundamentals and is unable to read and react to complex defensive schemes, the coaching staff will continue to call the game so Tebow can manage it and not lose it from the get-go. Right now he is too much of a risk with his inadequacies to just let him loose from the first snap. Just look at his first pass last Sunday. By all rights that was a pick six waiting to happen, and that is the kind of thing that cannot happen until Tebow progresses on his fundamentals if there is any hope to win games.

slim
10-26-2011, 12:08 PM
I agree. But can you tell me this. Sunday Tebow was just NOT having a bad day? All QBs have bad days, some of those would be 4 INTs games some others just cant hit the broad side of a barn. Kind of hard to judge based off 1 1/2 games this season where he outscored the other team in that time.

I can't remember seeing any pro QBs constantly off target by 5+ yards. That worries me.

I am not going to write him off yet, but he can’t do that again (and I don’t think he will).

NightTerror218
10-26-2011, 12:11 PM
I can't remember seeing any pro QBs constantly off target by 5+ yards. That worries me.

I am not going to write him off yet, but he can’t do that again (and I don’t think he will).

I cant imagine this game not being in his head and his arm being cold most of game an his throws just being off, one of those games. If he has another game like that then I knows its him. I have heard QBs after games during interviews when asked about bad throws, they mention that that throw just got away from him. I could see that about one of them. The throw to Decker was not that far off just overthrew him. I see QBs do that a lot and I see them make that pass a lot too.

slim
10-26-2011, 12:13 PM
I cant imagine this game not being in his head and his arm being cold most of game an his throws just being off, one of those games. If he has another game like that then I knows its him. I have heard QBs after games during interviews when asked about bad throws, they mention that that throw just got away from him. I could see that about one of them. The throw to Decker was not that far off just overthrew him. I see QBs do that a lot and I see them make that pass a lot too.

He missed Decker by at least 5 yards. He missed DT a few times by more than that. He missed Fells by 20 yards. He also did some of this in the first half against SD last year (only not quite as bad).

I am not saying it's a trend, but it needs to stop.

jlarsiii
10-26-2011, 12:14 PM
I cant imagine this game not being in his head and his arm being cold most of game an his throws just being off, one of those games. If he has another game like that then I knows its him. I have heard QBs after games during interviews when asked about bad throws, they mention that that throw just got away from him. I could see that about one of them. The throw to Decker was not that far off just overthrew him. I see QBs do that a lot and I see them make that pass a lot too.

Not that far off? It sure as heck wasn't close...

Why must people try to make excuses for really poor throws. They were really poor throws and nothing more. Get over it...

NightTerror218
10-26-2011, 12:20 PM
Not that far off? It sure as heck wasn't close...

Why must people try to make excuses for really poor throws. They were really poor throws and nothing more. Get over it...

Pull that stick out of your a$$ buddy

Tned
10-26-2011, 12:23 PM
The only proble with going "all in", would be if he gets hurt (who else would be able to run the same type offense?).

I think both sides need to give a little. The coaches need to play more to his strengths and he needs to play better from the pocket.

Yea, that's probably why Eagles picked up Vince Young.

slim
10-26-2011, 12:28 PM
Yea, that's probably why Eagles picked up Vince Young.

No question about it.

I suppose we could find a similar guy to be the back up (maybe like Josh Johnson or someone)....

claymore
10-26-2011, 12:31 PM
Spencer Larson could do it.

FlyByU
10-26-2011, 12:39 PM
"Air Coryell" or Don Coryell had a good passing offense and I think Tebow would work good in that type of Offense.

FlyByU
10-26-2011, 12:41 PM
The only proble with going "all in", would be if he gets hurt (who else would be able to run the same type offense?).

Weber could run it fine.

NorCalBronco7
10-26-2011, 12:43 PM
McCoy was the offensive coordinator last year under McDaniels. Most of our offensive players are familiar with the Josh McDaniels offense that we ran last year. That Josh McDaniels offense had lots of spread looks in it. Are you honestly telling me professionals that spend literally the entire day working on football cannot re-familiarize themselves with what they had already ran the year before? Orton struggled with the current offense and Tebow is struggling with the current offense. It simply does not work for this team that has been built to pass both under Shanahan and under McDaniels. We need to have a game plan for the players we have and we had Tebow/Orton. The spread look and letting our guys throw the ball 25-30 times a game gives us the best chance to win. We need to pass to set up the run.

Our offensive line is not one that can run to set up the pass; we have to pass to set up the run. You can't fix an offensive line to fit your philosophy in one offseason or even two offseasons; sometimes it takes half a decade before you have the line play you need to execute your philosophy due to contract commitments by previous regimes. And if the players are still playing at a high enough of a level but not fully carrying out the offensive philosophy, you can't justify moving them. This line, with the exception of Franklin, is a pass blocking line. This is not a mauling, smash mouth ground and pound line. If we want to be an elite team with the players we have, we have to pass to set up the run.

As I've said somewhere else, saying that we shouldn't adjust our scheme mid season is ridiculous. The Bears were letting Cutler get sacked 6-7 times a game. Know what they did against Minnesota and Tampa Bay? Lots of max protect and lots of running the football. That was a drastic change from what they were doing earlier in the year and as a result of their changes, the Bears are a team that looks like they have some life. And then when people say "oh well you shouldn't build an offense around one football player!" that is also ridiculous. The Indianapolis Colts won a Super Bowl building an entire football team, offense and defense, around a single football player. The Colts are a team that is built to take a lead to force the opposing team to pass, allowing Freeney and Mathis to tee off on the opposing quarterback. This year the Colts are probably going to go 0-16 or 1-15 without the one player that makes it work but with Manning, that is a 10-14 win team.

Bottom line is we need to go back to what we we had going right under McDaniels on offense. The problem with Josh's offense was that we could not run the ball when we needed to due to having defenses key in on the pass. With Tebow, defenses can't do that. They have to watch out for Tebow as a running threat. If we let Tebow run the same offense that Orton ran last year we could legitimately have an elite offense once Tebow gets a better feel for the game and his receivers. I would say we should incorporate more bootlegs, but unlike with using a spread, that actually would be putting in a new offense. Our quarterbacks know the spread. Our backs know the spread. Our receivers know the spread. Our coaching staff knows the spread. McCoy and Fox need to stop being stupid and use what gives us the best chance to win now. There is absolutely no way that Tebow is incapable of carrying out the level of execution he has in the 4th quarter to the other 3 quarters if the coaching staff gives him a chance to.

Chicago never completely changed their scheme. Max protect and running the ball more are not completely different philosophical differences in their offense. They're more or less adjustments. The Broncos base offense is 2 wide (212) under Fox. A shift midseason to a 3 wide, shotgun/spread offense, is a radical change. Sure, its what the Broncos ran last year, but the Broncos are not preparded for it this year. Asking the players to learn an another offense midseason wont happen.

I cant for the life of me understand how anybody after watching the Miami game thinks the Broncos passing the ball more gives them the best chance to win. Tebow was aweful throwing the ball for a majority of the game. Now he deserves to have the offense centered and dependent on him, in his 5th start?

UnderArmour
10-26-2011, 02:27 PM
First, McDone totally revamped the offense (i.e. traded away all the talent) so there is no way you can relate the offense to Shanny. It is totally different with a power run scheme and spread looks. Right now this offense actually performs better at running the ball then passing, this year, with Tebow running the offense. It is a small sample size but that is the way it is

Second, the bears didn't adjust their scheme. Their offensive philosophy and play book are exactly the same as when they started the season. They adjusted their play calling. That is a big difference.

Third, using Manning is not a great example for Tebow right now. The colts didn't build around them until Manning developed into the beast that he has been. That is when they built around him and could get away with their many deficiencies that are now being exposed with him out of the lineup. Tebow isn't even in the same universe so building around a guy who hasn't even shown yet that he is worth it is really a bad idea. This can totally wait until Tebow proves himself which he clearly hasn't done yet.

Fourth, the only way your last point comes true is if Tebow can improve his accuracy ESPECIALLY from the pocket. That is a really big if...
Because Tebow clearly lacks in fundamentals and is unable to read and react to complex defensive schemes, the coaching staff will continue to call the game so Tebow can manage it and not lose it from the get-go. Right now he is too much of a risk with his inadequacies to just let him loose from the first snap. Just look at his first pass last Sunday. By all rights that was a pick six waiting to happen, and that is the kind of thing that cannot happen until Tebow progresses on his fundamentals if there is any hope to win games.

Clady was praised as a fit for a zone blocking scheme coming out of college and Kuper is still on the line, both obviously better pass blocking than run blocking. Both are holdovers from the Shanahan era. The McDaniels power blocking scheme was an utter flop and we ended up just throwing the football damn near every down anyways because our running backs couldn't get any yards. This of course was due to the insistence of doing it the "Patriot way" where you can't run the ball unless Tom Terrific is back there. The Patriots still struggle to run the ball effectively with their scheme and remain a pass first team.

And yes, the Bears did adjust their scheme. Their blocking against Minnesota was COMPLETELY different than against Detroit. Every NFL offense has near every formation imaginable in the playbook so don't try to say it isn't an adjustment in scheme when an offense emphasizes an underutilized formation from the playbook that they had not been using. Our playbook has several spread looks in it. We have a 3 WR, TE, RB look and we have a 4 WR 1 TE look, and we have a 4 WR, RB look. We have these looks out of a shotgun or from under center. These are already in the playbook and the players know the plays. To go to more spread looks is NOT a drastic change for the players to have to adjust to mid season.

You're flat out wrong about the Colts waiting until Manning developed to start building around him. They had Marshall Faulk and they traded him away leaving Manning as their cornerstone after major growing pains his rookie year. They started early then as he developed they kept building around his skill set.

Also, in the spread offense a pocket still forms. Yes, Tebow needs to be able to throw from the pocket but I think his bigger issue is not being able to read a defense pre-snap from under center. When he's in the shotgun, he can read the defense a hell of a lot easier. This isn't just true for Tebow, it's true for any NFL quarterback; it's just easier to get a feel for coverage out of a shotgun than under center. Tebow does need to get better throwing after taking a snap from under center, no doubt. But that does not need to be the only thing we do.

jlarsiii
10-26-2011, 02:27 PM
Pull that stick out of your a$$ buddy

Wow, great discourse...

I guess my previous post struck a little too close to the truth for you. Lame excuses are lame. Keep that in mind.

NightTerror218
10-26-2011, 02:31 PM
Wow, great discourse...

I guess my previous post struck a little too close to the truth for you. Lame excuses are lame. Keep that in mind.

Was not an excuse it was a question after 1 game. Was it a regular thing or just a bad game. That was my only question, so enough of being a ****.

silkamilkamonico
10-26-2011, 04:40 PM
The coaching staff is far too unimaginative to build anything around anyone. All they want to do is run the ball and protect the defense.

Lame.

Cugel
10-26-2011, 07:04 PM
Its one thing to build something around a player. But its something entirely different when said player has a problem with accuracy. It just is and im sure Fox and Elway are watching what he does the rest of the year to determine where to go with Tebow and IF they need to build around him.

Makes no sense building anything around a player if they cant improve on their passing percentage. I know none of the Tebow fans want to hear that but thats the reality of the NFL. Its a passing league and you need to be able to pass the ball in order to win championships.

If Tebow can get himself to a point where he can be a passer first/runner second than he will be good to go. If he cant, he will be replaced.

This is the point that most Tebowniacs don't see to grasp.

Cugel
10-26-2011, 07:15 PM
Ive been arguing this to a few people around here and only for the sake of arguing with me, because its me, they say that you dont change systems you change the player. I personally think that is wrong because you are not dealing with lemmings but rather different and unique skillsets.

I also think that its wrong because unlike college where you keep the same system and recruit accordingly, you may have the same QB (hopefully) for 10-15 years not just 4 and so it becomes worth it to customize you offense to your personnel rather than neuter you current players to fit your system. (a system that is nothing special btw)

#1 -- The Broncos ARE trying to adapt the play-calling to suit Tebow's strengths. They did that in the Miami game. It wasn't readily apparent because Tebow turned about 15 designed pass plays either into sacks or plays where he took off and ran.

You must have noticed he was in the shot-gun a lot.

#2 -- You can't run effectively from the shot-gun because the runner gets the ball and STARTS accelerating towards the line whereas taking the hand-off from under center he's already near top speed when he gets the ball and can hit the hole immediately.

So, you can't really run out of the shot-gun which takes away a LOT of what you can accomplish, particularly the play-action pass.

You need an effective running game to do play-action and you need an effective play-action fake to help you freeze the LBs and S's in the passing game. Coverage is too good and too tight to have an effective passing game unless you can make the S's and LBs' hesitate in their coverage wondering if it's going to be a run, allowing the WRs to break free underneath.

#3 -- You are paying the franchise QB $10+ million a season. You don't want him running around taking any unnecessary hits. If he runs 10-15 times a game that adds up to 160-240 times a season.

Now you're a RB. And RBs don't last more than about 3 to 5 years in the NFL on average. They get hurt and slowed down and then they're gone. :coffee:

I don't care how big and tough Tebow is or how well he can take a hit or run out of bounds or slide. The more runs, the more chances of getting hurt. It's simple statistics.

No QB can make a living running that often in the NFL and not get jacked up repeatedly. And that will greatly shorten his career.

Now the economics you point out works AGAINST Tebow. Normally, teams hope that they can keep their QB for 10-15 years. But, not if he's going to run 200 plus times a year! He'll never last if he does that.

And, therefore it makes no sense for the Broncos to make him a franchise QB and pay him like a QB who will last 10-15 years if he's going to be injured and out of the league long before then.

The NFL has written the rules to protect QBs in the pocket and if they want to last that's where they have to stay the vast majority of the time.

nevcraw
10-26-2011, 07:22 PM
i didn't read every post -- but if i were fox i would use whatever scheme(s) that "gave them the best chance to win".
Furthermore -- If they think that a Moreno led ball control offense against one of the toughest DLines in football (Detroit) is not going to put Tebow in a pickle, then are in for a long Sunday. The offense needs to be tinkered and re-tinkered to work the strengths of the young QB and WR's and mismatched RB.

getlynched47
10-26-2011, 07:49 PM
Mangina is a douch.e nugget.

The only contribution I'll make to this thread is that I believe that you should build a system around the strengths of your core players, and then pick up additional players that fit the system and compliment the core players.

A quarterback is a core player IMO. Regardless of who the QB is, the offensive system should be modified to play to the strengths of that quarterback. That's why the coaches get paid. It's called adapting for a competitive advantage.

Forcing a QB to adapt to a system that does not fit their strengths is absolutely stupid IMO.

You don't think the Patriots offense and Colts offense are tailor-made for Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, respectively? I do...

Tebow is obviously more comfortable in the shotgun. If the Pats can run shotgun 40% of the time, I see no reason why the Denver Broncos can.

The argument against running the shotgun is that it negatively affects the running game. But that shouldn't be an issue, considering Tebow's strength is both running and passing in the shotgun.

Lancane
10-26-2011, 08:03 PM
You don't think the Patriots offense and Colts offense are tailor-made for Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, respectively? I do...

Then you're sadly mistaken, the Erhardt-Perkins/Weiss Spread which I call the Air-Erhardt was instilled before Tom Brady even got close to starting, Drew Bledsoe was running that offense and well long before Brady's ass. And when he got his shot, he ran the offense just as well if not better then Bledsoe.

Manning is no different, the Colt's offensive scheme has gone under three different changes, and each time Manning has ran the offense to perfection. A good quarterback can run a set offensive scheme, a great quarterback can fit into any scheme or system without flaw.

Teams who've tried to cater the offense to fit the non pro-style quarterbacks have all ended in a disastrous fashion. Good or even great quarterbacks can do just that, they can learn and adjust...so what does it say about Tebow that he can not?

getlynched47
10-26-2011, 08:22 PM
Then you're sadly mistaken, the Erhardt-Perkins/Weiss Spread which I call the Air-Erhardt was instilled before Tom Brady even got close to starting, Drew Bledsoe was running that offense and well long before Brady's ass. And when he got his shot, he ran the offense just as well if not better then Bledsoe.

Manning is no different, the Colt's offensive scheme has gone under three different changes, and each time Manning has ran the offense to perfection. A good quarterback can run a set offensive scheme, a great quarterback can fit into any scheme or system without flaw.

Teams who've tried to cater the offense to fit the non pro-style quarterbacks have all ended in a disastrous fashion. Good or even great quarterbacks can do just that, they can learn and adjust...so what does it say about Tebow that he can not?

There's variants of each system, Lancane. And you know that. You honestly don't believe that the Erhardt-Perkins offensive system has been modified to fit Tom Brady's strengths? They sure as hell are not running the same variant of the E-P system that Drew Bledsoe ran. I know because I watched the Pats from 1995-2000 and their system today is nothing like the system Bledsoe ran.

Colts offensive scheme has been the same since Peyton Manning came into the league. Tom Moore was the Colts offensive coordinator since 1998.

Clyde Christensen has been the offensive coordinator since Tom Moore left. He's been with the Colts and Tom Moore since 2002. He did NOT change the system.

EVERY good QB in the league has a system that magnifies their strengths and masks their weaknesses. I have no idea how anybody could argue against that. Some teams do it better than others.

YOU are sadly mistaken.

Davii
10-26-2011, 09:12 PM
I disagree that he is not a consistent and accurate passer.

One must look at the circumstances that lead to his inconsistencies.

As I stated before he has no chance to make progression read from under center right now. Because all his RAM is taken up with the act of not bobling the snap and dropping back in a technical way. He actually looks good physically now when he drops back... thats a testament to his work ethic.

BUT! He is not doing the most important part of the drop back... not the physical act of dropping back but the software aspect of scanning the routes and making decisions DURING the drop.

As it is he is doing all the cerebral stuff at the END of the drop and by then the timing routes are well over with.. he looks up and it is way too late in the route for just starting to make a decision... he should have made a decision and be throwing already.

This is why you see him get happy feet with a "um ok, im back here now... but now what?" look. the "second guessing" we all saw was this.

This lack of timing and confidence will KILL your accuracy as we saw. he was like 3-9...

Ahhhh but then put him in his element where his mental map is deeply wired and all of the sudden he is 9-13.

The boy can throw.. and can throw accurately. Not elite accuracy, but he could be a 60% passer in this league.


So what were the poor circumstances surrounding his 10 foot overthrow of a rb that was 5 yards away with no defenders between them. Tebow wasn't even in the pocket on that one.

I think Tebow will eventually be a damned good player, and for the Broncos. But those among us that can't admit he has serious issues are just as bad as those who won't admit his benefits.

Lancane
10-26-2011, 09:21 PM
There's variants of each system, Lancane. And you know that. You honestly don't believe that the Erhardt-Perkins offensive system has been modified to fit Tom Brady's strengths? They sure as hell are not running the same variant of the E-P system that Drew Bledsoe ran. I know because I watched the Pats from 1995-2000 and their system today is nothing like the system Bledsoe ran.

Of course the Air-Erhardt underwent changes, actually I would say that originally, with Bledsoe at the helm it was more akin to a traditional Erhardt-Perkins offense, but Bledsoe is and was considered a better passing quarterback then Brady, Weiss started to instill more and more of the high powered passing spread over time, Brady for the first two seasons was still running a more traditional E-P, it was about his third or fourth season that the offense really became the Air-Erhardt.


Colts offensive scheme has been the same since Peyton Manning came into the league. Tom Moore was the Colts offensive coordinator since 1998.

Clyde Christensen has been the offensive coordinator since Tom Moore left. He's been with the Colts and Tom Moore since 2002. He did NOT change the system.

Originally the Colt's offense was a Smashmouth type offense, a Erhardt-Perkins variant, a mix between Shottenheimer's and Noll's earlier respective offenses. And though Manning could run the offense (Per Dungy) they felt that Manning could open up the offense far more in a pass orientated offense. So Tom Moore created an offensive system that was ever changing and adapting, it continued to have Noll's signature, but was different then the system he devised in Pittsburgh... Don't believe me, he's said as much in his own words.


"There are lots of systems, there are tons of systems," Moore said. "But the trick is no systems, the trick is players and making sure you take something that the players can do and not get into, 'Well, this is mine and this is what we're going to do.' It's what's best for the players."

Chuck Noll hired Moore in 1977 to coach his wide receivers in an era in which Noll served as his own offensive coordinator. Moore helped develop the new passing attack they used in '78 when the rules changed and suddenly Terry Bradshaw's offense turned into one of the best in the league at throwing the ball.

"We went to the Super Bowl in '78 and '79 and we got more involved in passing and we still had the good running game, we were two-back because that's what our personnel dictated," Moore said.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10034/1032953-66.stm#ixzz1bwaKLIhr

Christensen has continued to make changes to the offense, evolving the offense over the years in the same manner and still at times talks it over with close friend and mentor Tom Moore.


EVERY good QB in the league has a system that magnifies their strengths and masks their weaknesses. I have no idea how anybody could argue against that. Some teams do it better than others.

Tebow isn't a good quarterback, he hasn't proven shit yet, besides that he's a freaking gimmick and until he proves he can do the things that good quarterbacks can do, then you don't coddle his ass and cover up the weaknesses with some estranged 'jack-off' offense that is more then likely set to fail. Yes, a good coordinator should change an offense to enhance the qualities of the key players on the roster, but even in the case of Manning or Brady, they both proved capable in other systems, they catered to them after the fact. Not to mention that both had prototypical attributes, the ability to make most throws with accuracy and to do so from within the pocket.

Believe what you want GL, but if Tebow can not adapt, then he'll always be considered a weak quarterback, another gimmick quarterback who can not play in this league unless the offense suits him and hides his mass amount of deficiencies to play the game. Offenses change to suit the league, but by coddling his ass then he'd only ever be able to play in a weak offense that suited him, even if it was a failure and didn't suit the league.

At this point, if he's that F'n terrible and can not do what most franchise quarterbacks can, then I would rather watch them trade a shitload of first round picks for Luck or draft someone else then waste time trying to cover up a flawed quarterback, it's cheaper in the end, less stressful and the other quarterback has a better chance to succeed and that has been proven...Just ask Michael Vick, Pat White and Vincent Young.

TXBRONC
10-26-2011, 09:23 PM
i didn't read every post -- but if i were fox i would use whatever scheme(s) that "gave them the best chance to win".
Furthermore -- If they think that a Moreno led ball control offense against one of the toughest DLines in football (Detroit) is not going to put Tebow in a pickle, then are in for a long Sunday. The offense needs to be tinkered and re-tinkered to work the strengths of the young QB and WR's and mismatched RB.

I don't think they can make wholesale changes without it acutally making matter even worse.

getlynched47
10-26-2011, 09:45 PM
Tebow isn't a good quarterback, he hasn't proven shit yet, besides that he's a freaking gimmick and until he proves he can do the things that good quarterbacks can do, then you don't coddle his ass and cover up the weaknesses with some estranged 'jack-off' offense that is more then likely set to fail. Yes, a good coordinator should change an offense to enhance the qualities of the key players on the roster, but even in the case of Manning or Brady, they both proved capable in other systems, they catered to them after the fact. Not to mention that both had prototypical attributes, the ability to make most throws with accuracy and to do so from within the pocket.

Believe what you want GL, but if Tebow can not adapt, then he'll always be considered a weak quarterback, another gimmick quarterback who can not play in this league unless the offense suits him and hides his mass amount of deficiencies to play the game. Offenses change to suit the league, but by coddling his ass then he'd only ever be able to play in a weak offense that suited him, even if it was a failure and didn't suit the league.

At this point, if he's that F'n terrible and can not do what most franchise quarterbacks can, then I would rather watch them trade a shitload of first round picks for Luck or draft someone else then waste time trying to cover up a flawed quarterback, it's cheaper in the end, less stressful and the other quarterback has a better chance to succeed and that has been proven...Just ask Michael Vick, Pat White and Vincent Young.

Oh I'm not denying that Tebow sucks at passing. He was atrocious.

But in response to your comment: "He hasn't proven shit". I say "He hasn't had a chance to prove shit". 4 starts. I believe he can improve, and he will HAVE to improve if he wants to continue to be our QB.

But I don't believe that the Broncos will force Tim Tebow to play a Kyle Orton-type offense if that's not where his strengths are. The coaching staff isn't dumb enough to do that.

It may not be pretty. It may be unconventional. It may look ridiculously retarded at times. But at the end of the day, a quarterbacks job is to score touchdowns. Tebow has proven he can score touchdowns with passing (8 passing TD's in his career) and running (7 rushing TD's in his career).

BTW, Andrew Luck has 50% chance to be the next Ryan Leaf and 50% chance to be a good QB :salute:

Lancane
10-26-2011, 10:30 PM
Oh I'm not denying that Tebow sucks at passing. He was atrocious.

That's sort of the problem GL, he has to learn to be a better passer but sadly I don't see this staff as being capable of honing his skill set, do you? So people want them to devise an offense that suits him...but that can be just as much a folly IMHO. And who on this staff do people think is smart enough to innovate a new offensive system?

Tom Moore and others of his ilk seem to be a dying breed, the innovators of the game are disappearing. Who remaining in this league has the brains and know how to develop a new offensive system? There are maybe a handful and most are Head Coaches and in that position for a reason.


But in response to your comment: "He hasn't proven shit". I say "He hasn't had a chance to prove shit". 4 starts. I believe he can improve, and he will HAVE to improve if he wants to continue to be our QB.

That's a big if bro, a very big if. Yes, he's only started in four games...but the offense has been in place since pre-season, and I thought he finally had it down pat during that last pre-season contest. Granted that he hadn't really practiced with the starters, but he should have known how to run the offense still. I'm not saying we should bench him, I'll stand by what I've said all along, that we need to give him the rest of the season to prove himself one way or the other, but that's it.


But I don't believe that the Broncos will force Tim Tebow to play a Kyle Orton-type offense if that's not where his strengths are. The coaching staff isn't dumb enough to do that.

Elway has continually stated that quarterbacks only win in this league from the pocket. I don't see Elway changing his position on that just because Tebow has a wow factor, it's either he evolves or he's gone, no one considers the Broncos married to Tebow, they have very little invested in him...it's the fans that are invested and that could blind them from the reality of the situation.


It may not be pretty. It may be unconventional. It may look ridiculously retarded at times. But at the end of the day, a quarterbacks job is to score touchdowns. Tebow has proven he can score touchdowns with passing (8 passing TD's in his career) and running (7 rushing TD's in his career).

And how long do you think a trick pony show will work? There is a reason as I stated above that such quarterbacks or offenses catering to them end up in utter disaster. Tebow's intangibles will only do so much, if he doesn't change and develop into a more pro-style quarterback, eventually you'll understand what I am saying.


BTW, Andrew Luck has 50% chance to be the next Ryan Leaf and 50% chance to be a good QB :salute:

I'd actually take that bet... I believe Luck unless he goes to a horrific staff will end up having a stellar career. But I don't discount those behind him either, there are a few this year with that ability. He'll not be the next Leaf, he'll either be the next Manning or the next Sanchez, I don't see him being worse though.

hamrob
10-26-2011, 10:48 PM
Its one thing to build something around a player. But its something entirely different when said player has a problem with accuracy. It just is and im sure Fox and Elway are watching what he does the rest of the year to determine where to go with Tebow and IF they need to build around him.

Makes no sense building anything around a player if they cant improve on their passing percentage. I know none of the Tebow fans want to hear that but thats the reality of the NFL. Its a passing league and you need to be able to pass the ball in order to win championships.

If Tebow can get himself to a point where he can be a passer first/runner second than he will be good to go. If he cant, he will be replaced.Well, I don't disagree. But, I find it facinating, that we would judge this kid off of a few games or even what equates to a first season of starting.

Go take a look at accuracy for most 1st year starting QB's...and then, explain to me...why Tim Tebow should be judge any differently or held to any other standard??

Tim Tebow was a 65% passer in College. Let him play a full year...have an offseason as the starter...then come in next year...and let's then take a look at his completion percentage. To judge him by that now...is absolutely idiotic!!!

Take a look at this HOFer's completion percentage:

http://www.nfl.com/player/johnelway/2500547/careerstats

Northman
10-27-2011, 06:29 AM
Well, I don't disagree. But, I find it facinating, that we would judge this kid off of a few games or even what equates to a first season of starting.

ALL QB's are judged to some degree when they come out of college and start playing. You dont think John was judged in his first few starts? He most certainly was.


Go take a look at accuracy for most 1st year starting QB's...and then, explain to me...why Tim Tebow should be judge any differently or held to any other standard??Your speaking to the choir mate, ive been making that arguement for WEEKS now. Time and time again i have made comparisons with Tebow's numbers to guys like John, etc. Most times than not Tebow's TD/INT ratio is much better than a lot of them. But, the one place that he struggles most is completion percentage. So while i agree that Tebow has only had 4 starts i also understand he needs a lot more work than the average QB. And that is what is being discussed in this thread.


Tim Tebow was a 65% passer in College. Let him play a full year...have an offseason as the starter...then come in next year...and let's then take a look at his completion percentage. To judge him by that now...is absolutely idiotic!!!
Again, go back and search my posts. You will find ive been making this very statement since the offseason. You have to remember though that just because people say that Tebow needs to work on his accuracy does not mean they are writing him off. There's absolutely nothing wrong with addressing Tebow's weakness as a NFL QB right now.

EastCoastBronco
10-27-2011, 09:58 AM
Listening to Mangini on NFL matters would be like listening to the pope on dating matters. It doesn't make a lot of sense. The guy is out of a job for a reason.

Fox was out of a job for a reason too...;-)

arapaho2
10-27-2011, 10:43 AM
I don't think they can make wholesale changes without it acutally making matter even worse.


i think you need to define "makeing it worse"

do you mean making it worse than the traditional mccoy /fox offense that lit it up with orton...like the 6-13 fr 34 yards and one pick in the first half against the bolts?

then i gonna disagree

ydave77
10-27-2011, 11:52 AM
Currently, I'm writing off Miami as nerves due to all the crap that led up to him starting. I had reviewed all his passes from the three starts last year and he was much better last year. Not Brady/Manning/Rodgers good, but better than this year.

That said, I agree. It would be one thing if he has a 65% completion rate from shotgun/spread, and 50% under center. Then, there is a valid argument for changing the scheme to make him more comfortable, and then in time when he becomes more comfortable under center, you use more and more over time.

I am not sure what changed, but he looks much more hesitant than last year. It might be that he is afraid of making a mistake, or has had his confidence shaken, but he just doesnt look as fluid to my untrained eye, as he did in his starts last yr.
Hopefully he comes out firing against Detroit!

G_Money
10-27-2011, 01:38 PM
Originally Posted by Tned
Currently, I'm writing off Miami as nerves due to all the crap that led up to him starting. I had reviewed all his passes from the three starts last year and he was much better last year. Not Brady/Manning/Rodgers good, but better than this year.

That said, I agree. It would be one thing if he has a 65% completion rate from shotgun/spread, and 50% under center. Then, there is a valid argument for changing the scheme to make him more comfortable, and then in time when he becomes more comfortable under center, you use more and more over time.

That's the hope. Drew Brees is STILL far more of a monster in the shotgun. I remember reading an article about how average he was in plays under center, and how he was far and away the best QB in the league looking at only shotgun plays.

If Tim can be average under center and great from the shotgun, he can QB for us. He's got a ways to go to get there.

And if someone could show him how to read defenses and throw a spiral, that'd be great. Steve Young's available for that, right? I mean if Elway's too busy being an exec...

~G

jlarsiii
10-27-2011, 02:20 PM
Was not an excuse it was a question after 1 game. Was it a regular thing or just a bad game. That was my only question, so enough of being a ****.

What is your deal? So if anyone argues against anything you post or points out any parts of your posts as possibly being wrong, you then go straight to slinging insults instead of having any type of conversation or discussion about it.

You are all class...:coffee:

Cugel
10-27-2011, 06:14 PM
Elway has continually stated that quarterbacks only win in this league from the pocket. I don't see Elway changing his position on that just because Tebow has a wow factor, it's either he evolves or he's gone, no one considers the Broncos married to Tebow, they have very little invested in him...it's the fans that are invested and that could blind them from the reality of the situation.

Why do so many fans think they know better than Elway what it takes to be a SB winning QB? You would think playing 16 years in the NFL, leading 4 teams to the SB, winning 2 of them and ending his career as SB MVP MIGHT just possibly qualify Elway to answer the Question: "what does it take to be a SB winning QB?"

But, no! If Elway insists that to win the SB you have to be able to pass effectively from the pocket, then HE's the one who's wrong! Not some ignorant fan? :confused:


Tebow's intangibles will only do so much, if he doesn't change and develop into a more pro-style quarterback, eventually you'll understand what I am saying.

That's what I'm saying too. Right now, Tebow is worse than horrible at doing what he needs to do. Can he improve? Certainly. He can't get any worse at being a pocket passing QB.

Can or will the Broncos go to a version of the Spread offense because Tebow can't effectively run anything else? No. They'll draft a QB instead. :coffee:

Cugel
10-27-2011, 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by Tned
Currently, I'm writing off Miami as nerves due to all the crap that led up to him starting. I had reviewed all his passes from the three starts last year and he was much better last year. Not Brady/Manning/Rodgers good, but better than this year.

That said, I agree. It would be one thing if he has a 65% completion rate from shotgun/spread, and 50% under center. Then, there is a valid argument for changing the scheme to make him more comfortable, and then in time when he becomes more comfortable under center, you use more and more over time.

I think part of it is that defenses now know more about what Tebow can do, and what he struggles doing.

This is the pros. The defense will try and take away what he does best and force the QB to beat them doing what he does worst. That's why it's vital to have no weaknesses.

If you can beat the blitz by making quick and accurate throws downfield from the pocket, you force the defense to play honest to keep the S's and CB's back in coverage and drop the LBs rather than bringing 7 or 8 men and blitzing the hell out of the QB.

If you can run the ball effectively, you can freeze the LBs and S's with play-action and that will help your receivers get open underneath.

If you can get out of the pocket and escape pressure and extend plays then you make them back off their blitz packages.

To be successful a team needs to do ALL of these things well. If they have a weakness in any one area defenses will exploit it!

And right now defenses are concluding that Tebow can't operate under center. So, they are going to crowd the box with 7 or 8 defenders until he proves he can throw accurately from the pocket. They are going to take away the run, keep Tebow in the pocket, and dare him to beat them throwing downfield.

If he can hit a couple of long passes for TDs they'll be forced to back off that and play honest.

NightTerror218
10-27-2011, 06:33 PM
I think part of it is that defenses now know more about what Tebow can do, and what he struggles doing.

This is the pros. The defense will try and take away what he does best and force the QB to beat them doing what he does worst. That's why it's vital to have no weaknesses.

If you can beat the blitz by making quick and accurate throws downfield from the pocket, you force the defense to play honest to keep the S's and CB's back in coverage and drop the LBs rather than bringing 7 or 8 men and blitzing the hell out of the QB.

If you can run the ball effectively, you can freeze the LBs and S's with play-action and that will help your receivers get open underneath.

If you can get out of the pocket and escape pressure and extend plays then you make them back off their blitz packages.

To be successful a team needs to do ALL of these things well. If they have a weakness in any one area defenses will exploit it!

And right now defenses are concluding that Tebow can't operate under center. So, they are going to crowd the box with 7 or 8 defenders until he proves he can throw accurately from the pocket. They are going to take away the run, keep Tebow in the pocket, and dare him to beat them throwing downfield.

If he can hit a couple of long passes for TDs they'll be forced to back off that and play honest.

Well Dolphins did stack box and we still ran 180 yards against them. They did manage to get pressure on Tebow and keep him from passing (sacks and forcing him to run).

Cugel
10-27-2011, 06:41 PM
Well Dolphins did stack box and we still ran 180 yards against them. They did manage to get pressure on Tebow and keep him from passing (sacks and forcing him to run).

Yes, the OL was phenomenal that game. 6 yards per run against a defense stacking the line is pretty great. Stink called it the best performance by Denver's OL in the last 4 or 5 years.

But, the pressure certainly got to Tebow. He held onto the ball in desperation, and took SIX sacks (now that the official scorers have deleted one entire sack!).

They forced him to stand in the pocket and throw -- and he was unable to complete passes to open WRs. He looked horrible.

Believe me. The next few teams are going to look at that tape and do the same thing.

Only they're not going to back off in the last 2 minutes like the Chargers and Dolphins did and let Tebow run around and make plays in the last few minutes. They'll just dial it up and keep 7 or 8 men in the box the entire game.

Bullgator
10-27-2011, 06:46 PM
Yes, the OL was phenomenal that game. 6 yards per run against a defense stacking the line is pretty great. Stink called it the best performance by Denver's OL in the last 4 or 5 years.

But, the pressure certainly got to Tebow. He held onto the ball in desperation, and took SIX sacks (now that the official scorers have deleted one entire sack!).

They forced him to stand in the pocket and throw -- and he was unable to complete passes to open WRs. He looked horrible.

Believe me. The next few teams are going to look at that tape and do the same thing.

Only they're not going to back off in the last 2 minutes like the Chargers and Dolphins did and let Tebow run around and make plays in the last few minutes. They'll just dial it up and keep 7 or 8 men in the box the entire game.

Lets just wait and see what happens this week before you go and make yourself look like an idiot.

NightTerror218
10-27-2011, 06:49 PM
Yes, the OL was phenomenal that game. 6 yards per run against a defense stacking the line is pretty great. Stink called it the best performance by Denver's OL in the last 4 or 5 years.

But, the pressure certainly got to Tebow. He held onto the ball in desperation, and took SIX sacks (now that the official scorers have deleted one entire sack!).

They forced him to stand in the pocket and throw -- and he was unable to complete passes to open WRs. He looked horrible.

Believe me. The next few teams are going to look at that tape and do the same thing.

Only they're not going to back off in the last 2 minutes like the Chargers and Dolphins did and let Tebow run around and make plays in the last few minutes. They'll just dial it up and keep 7 or 8 men in the box the entire game.

I will give him a couple more games before I say that is how you defend him. He just looked out of his normal element aka scared that game. I think the game was in his head, thinking too much, outside pressure and he just could not perform. I have never seen him miss WR like that before.