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View Full Version : Reasonable Critics VS Tebow HATERS



Buckin' Gator
10-25-2011, 12:06 PM
John Elway was one of, if the not the best QB, in NFL history,,,, a given imo.

However:

~ John never had a 40 yard run from scrimmage for a TD, Tebow already has plus two more 20+ yd runs.
* Tebow is one of only 3 QB's to ever have a 30+ (33) yd pass for a TD and a 40 yd run for a TD in the same game in NFL History,
and Tim did that in his very first NFL start in Oakland's Black Hole.

~ In John's long and glorious NFL career, he had two 13+ pt 4th quarter come from behind wins.
* Tebow, in just 4 NFL starts, has already had two 13+ pt 4th quarter come from behind wins.

~ Tebow is the only Bronco QB in Team History to get a win in Miami over the Phins, (1-7 all time).

Tebow has been more 'efficient' as a QB, than the QB that was the #1 pick in his draft, as a rookie and in his 2nd season.
(Career PER - Tebow 85.9 -- Bradford 75.4 even though SB has full support and is the full time starter, before injured)
But the idiotic HATERS will still claim that Tim should have gone in the 3-4 rnd as a FB, instead of just admitting that they are PROVEN FoS.

Tebow was been more 'productive' running the ball as a rookie than All Pro FB Mike 'A-Train' Alstott was.
Haters claimed he'd get killed running it and are again PROVEN FoS.

Tebow has had a better YPC, plus as many rushing TD's as any Bronco RB in 2010, and in 2011 so far.
Tebow 2010 - 82.2 PER with 5 TD's to 3 Ints, PLUS 5.3 ypc with 6 TD's.
Tebow 2011 - 91.7 PER with 3 TD's to 0 Ints, PLUS 6.8 ypc, 1 TD, (8.1 ypc in the Miami game).
>> No off season prep (lockout), change of coach and system, little help or support, and yet he has still improved.

And yet there are some NFL scouts and Media Morons that still claim that Tebow will:
- Not be a winning NFL QB (he's already 2-2 with little preparation or help).
- Claim that Tim does not have what it takes to even be an NFL QB, (refuse to just look at the stats).
- Continue to hope that he will fail and/or be forced to switch position to RB/FB/TE (which he could probably also play at the NFL level btw).

Critics are just fine with me and needed, when they are ACCURATE & FAIR with their analysis and opinions.

Otherwise they just become petty despicable HATERS who deserve all of the disrespect that Football fans in general can heap on them.

My own (fans) opinion is:
~ Tebow has done very well so far;
~ given the media circus distractions,
~ lack of practice and playing time,
~ no post-rookie off-season due to the lockout,
~ exacerbated by the coaching and system change from year 1 to year 2,
~ lack of overall talent and depth on the offense.
* A general lack of any 'real' faith or support from the new coach, GM, or owner, which is a cryin' shame imoho.
(that's not just a claim on my part either - Preseason TT 108, KO 104, BQ 69)

Tim's one positive is that his fans, and more importantly his teammates, like him, have faith in him, and support him as the Bronco QB.

Not a fanatic, not making any unsupported claims on the present or for the future, just being supportive and willing to give Tim
or any other player their 'earned on the field' due respect....

Tebow's Career Statistics: G 13 - GS 4 - Starter W/L 2-2

Passing - 58 of 119, 48.7%, > 8 TD's to 3 Ints < 13 sac for 69 yds, 85.9 PER
(On 119 attempts, only 3 Ints, a 2.7 to 1 TD/Int ratio)

Rushing - 58 for 329 yds, 5.7 ypc, 7 TD's, 2 Fum, ZERO lost poss fumbles.
(On 177 total snaps from center,
only 2 fumbles, 0 lost poss fumbles)

* Feel free to list all of the other NFL QB's that have a 59 to 1 snap to turnover ratio.
** Tim is averaging less than 1 TO per start so far.
================

Tebow has not been given much of an opportunity so far, so comparisons are difficult, however,
if we use Tim's 1+ year career stats some comparisons can then be made:

For the rest of these QB's we will use the current 2011 season stats.
2011 NFL QB, listed by QB Pass Efficiency Rating in decending order:

9. A.Smith 158 Att, 8 TD's to 2 Ints, PER 95.2
10. T.Romo 217 Att, 10 TD's to 6 Ints, PER 93.4
11. M.Hasselbeck 211 Att, 10 TD's to 6 Ints, PER 87.7

** T.Tebow 119 Att, 8 TD's to 3 Ints, PER 85.9 (career)

12. C.Painter 119 Att, 5 TD's to 2 Ints, PER 85.2
13. M.Vick 200 Att, 9 TD's to 8 Ints, PER 84.4
14. A.Dalton 189 Att, 7 TD's to 5 Ints, PER 84.3
15. J.Campbell 165 Att, 6 TD's to 4 Ints, PER 84.2
16. J.Cutler 232 Att, 9 TD's to 6 Ints, PER 84.0
17. M.Sanchez 231 Att, 12 TD's to 6 Ints, PER 83.0
18. D.McNabb 156 Att, 4 TD's to 2 Ints, PER 82.9
19. Scam Newton 252 Att, 8 TD's to 9 Ints, PER 82.8
20 P.Rivers 218 Att, 7 TD's to 9 Ints, PER 82.3

It's just a plain old demonstratable FACT, that the HATERS refuse to look at the available EVIDENCE.
And that's exactly what makes them HATERS instead of just being annalists or even reasonable critics!

They will choose one stat (Comp.%) and harp that Tim is 'inaccurate' but then they will
refuse to see the more important comparisons, such as:

Pass Efficiency and Positive Production:
2010 PER 82.1
2011 PER Preseason 108
2011 PER 91.7
Career PER 85.9

Tebow's TD's per pass attempt = 1 TD per 14.9 Att --- (#1 A.Rogers is 1 TD per 11.95 Att)
Tebow's Int's per pass attempt = 1 Int per 39.7 Att --- (#2 T.Brady is 1 Int per 29.6 Att)
Tebow's TD to Int Ratio = 2.7 to 1 --- (#3 D.Brees TD/Int Ratio is 2.25 to 1)

And yet the HATERS refuse to see that Tim would currently be the #12 QB in the NFL, just as a passer,
without even considering that he is also GREAT if/when he needs to run the ball.

PS
Some would consider Tebow as 2-0 this season. Beat the Dolphins, and the Chargers
(Scoring was Den 15 - 6 SD after Tim took over as QB in that game)

Stats copied from: http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&season=2011&seasonType=REG

Discuss:

MadMax
10-25-2011, 12:11 PM
I 'think' that unnecessary quotation 'marks' make my eyes 'bleed'.

OMorange&blue
10-25-2011, 12:14 PM
Alpha Seirra?

Mike
10-25-2011, 12:18 PM
:painkiller:

MOtorboat
10-25-2011, 12:18 PM
Oh good lord. I didn't get past the Elway crap.

Black Hole.

OMorange&blue
10-25-2011, 12:20 PM
It's just a plain old demonstratable FACT, that the HATERS refuse to look at the available EVIDENCE.
And that's exactly what makes them HATERS instead of just being annalists or even reasonable critics!


Stopped reading here. Should have stopped much sooner.

slim
10-25-2011, 12:38 PM
Oh good lord. I didn't get past the Elway crap.

Black Hole.

This reminds me of how Clay used to run down Elway to prop up the coach killer.

Buckin' Gator
10-25-2011, 12:39 PM
Anal-itss it is, as usal.

After they hire Meyer, please, trade Tebow to Miami while burning the draft barn with multiple draft picks. :elefant:

Then Denver can quickly go back to their previous all time record at Miami vs the Phins very quickly..... :beer:

And the rest here can go back to and/or continue to swinging on the long past glory.... :coffee:

PS

It's a really good thing that the few here DO NOT represent the vast majority of Bronco fans. :listen:

Mike
10-25-2011, 12:44 PM
What do you know about being a Bronco fan?

And for the record, fanbois like you do more to damage Tebow than help.

GEM
10-25-2011, 12:45 PM
Anal-itss it is, as usal.

After they hire Meyer, please, trade Tebow to Miami while burning the draft barn with multiple draft picks. :elefant:

Then Denver can quickly go back to their previous all time record at Miami vs the Phins very quickly..... :beer:

And the rest here can go back to and/or continue to swinging on the long past glory.... :coffee:

PS

It's a really good thing that the few here DO NOT represent the vast majority of Bronco fans. :listen:

And Tebow only fans can go back to the Florida forums.

And the Phins....you really want to go there? One of the best statistical QB's in history and could never even sniff the SB. Get outta here with this shit. Don't compare Tebow to Elway...he would be offended that you would.

And Urban Meyer should be bitch slapped for letting a guy with the "IT" factor, go through college never learning how to be a pro-QB. He goes to the pros and he will suck.

slim
10-25-2011, 12:46 PM
Anal-itss it is, as usal.

After they hire Meyer, please, trade Tebow to Miami while burning the draft barn with multiple draft picks. :elefant:

Then Denver can quickly go back to their previous all time record at Miami vs the Phins very quickly..... :beer:

And the rest here can go back to and/or continue to swinging on the long past glory.... :coffee:

PS

It's a really good thing that the few here DO NOT represent the vast majority of Bronco fans. :listen:

When you compare Tebow to Elway, you should expect a harsh reaction.

If you were a Bronco fan, you would know that.

Buckin' Gator
10-25-2011, 12:47 PM
:painkiller:

Now I remember why I stopped posting here, it was the many negative anal-lists, as compared to the actual positive Bronco fans ratio...

Yawl have a real anal day now, ya heeeer.... :listen:

jhildebrand
10-25-2011, 12:47 PM
I think caution should be taken in comparing Tebow and Elway as close as the op tries. At this point, they are two different eras of football. Apples and Oranges.

Now if you want to compare the development of the two, go ahead. But trying to compare the actual stats and what not is a whole different ball game. Not only the eras, but the AFCW back then was usually the toughest division, or amongst the toughest, year in and out.

MileHighCrew
10-25-2011, 12:51 PM
John Elway was one of, if the not the best QB, in NFL history,,,, a given imo.

However:

~ John never had a 40 yard run from scrimmage for a TD, Tebow already has plus two more 20+ yd runs.
* Tebow is one of only 3 QB's to ever have a 30+ (33) yd pass for a TD and a 40 yd run for a TD in the same game in NFL History,
and Tim did that in his very first NFL start in Oakland's Black Hole.

~ In John's long and glorious NFL career, he had two 13+ pt 4th quarter come from behind wins.
* Tebow, in just 4 NFL starts, has already had two 13+ pt 4th quarter come from behind wins.

~ Tebow is the only Bronco QB in Team History to get a win in Miami over the Phins, (1-7 all time).

Tebow has been more 'efficient' as a QB, than the QB that was the #1 pick in his draft, as a rookie and in his 2nd season.
(Career PER - Tebow 85.9 -- Bradford 75.4 even though SB has full support and is the full time starter, before injured)
But the idiotic HATERS will still claim that Tim should have gone in the 3-4 rnd as a FB, instead of just admitting that they are PROVEN FoS.

Tebow was been more 'productive' running the ball as a rookie than All Pro FB Mike 'A-Train' Alstott was.
Haters claimed he'd get killed running it and are again PROVEN FoS.

Tebow has had a better YPC, plus as many rushing TD's as any Bronco RB in 2010, and in 2011 so far.
Tebow 2010 - 82.2 PER with 5 TD's to 3 Ints, PLUS 5.3 ypc with 6 TD's.
Tebow 2011 - 91.7 PER with 3 TD's to 0 Ints, PLUS 6.8 ypc, 1 TD, (8.1 ypc in the Miami game).
>> No off season prep (lockout), change of coach and system, little help or support, and yet he has still improved.

And yet there are some NFL scouts and Media Morons that still claim that Tebow will:
- Not be a winning NFL QB (he's already 2-2 with little preparation or help).
- Claim that Tim does not have what it takes to even be an NFL QB, (refuse to just look at the stats).
- Continue to hope that he will fail and/or be forced to switch position to RB/FB/TE (which he could probably also play at the NFL level btw).

Critics are just fine with me and needed, when they are ACCURATE & FAIR with their analysis and opinions.

Otherwise they just become petty despicable HATERS who deserve all of the disrespect that Football fans in general can heap on them.

My own (fans) opinion is:
~ Tebow has done very well so far;
~ given the media circus distractions,
~ lack of practice and playing time,
~ no post-rookie off-season due to the lockout,
~ exacerbated by the coaching and system change from year 1 to year 2,
~ lack of overall talent and depth on the offense.
* A general lack of any 'real' faith or support from the new coach, GM, or owner, which is a cryin' shame imoho.
(that's not just a claim on my part either - Preseason TT 108, KO 104, BQ 69)

Tim's one positive is that his fans, and more importantly his teammates, like him, have faith in him, and support him as the Bronco QB.

Not a fanatic, not making any unsupported claims on the present or for the future, just being supportive and willing to give Tim
or any other player their 'earned on the field' due respect....

Tebow's Career Statistics: G 13 - GS 4 - Starter W/L 2-2

Passing - 58 of 119, 48.7%, > 8 TD's to 3 Ints < 13 sac for 69 yds, 85.9 PER
(On 119 attempts, only 3 Ints, a 2.7 to 1 TD/Int ratio)

Rushing - 58 for 329 yds, 5.7 ypc, 7 TD's, 2 Fum, ZERO lost poss fumbles.
(On 177 total snaps from center,
only 2 fumbles, 0 lost poss fumbles)

* Feel free to list all of the other NFL QB's that have a 59 to 1 snap to turnover ratio.
** Tim is averaging less than 1 TO per start so far.
================

Tebow has not been given much of an opportunity so far, so comparisons are difficult, however,
if we use Tim's 1+ year career stats some comparisons can then be made:

For the rest of these QB's we will use the current 2011 season stats.
2011 NFL QB, listed by QB Pass Efficiency Rating in decending order:

9. A.Smith 158 Att, 8 TD's to 2 Ints, PER 95.2
10. T.Romo 217 Att, 10 TD's to 6 Ints, PER 93.4
11. M.Hasselbeck 211 Att, 10 TD's to 6 Ints, PER 87.7

** T.Tebow 119 Att, 8 TD's to 3 Ints, PER 85.9 (career)

12. C.Painter 119 Att, 5 TD's to 2 Ints, PER 85.2
13. M.Vick 200 Att, 9 TD's to 8 Ints, PER 84.4
14. A.Dalton 189 Att, 7 TD's to 5 Ints, PER 84.3
15. J.Campbell 165 Att, 6 TD's to 4 Ints, PER 84.2
16. J.Cutler 232 Att, 9 TD's to 6 Ints, PER 84.0
17. M.Sanchez 231 Att, 12 TD's to 6 Ints, PER 83.0
18. D.McNabb 156 Att, 4 TD's to 2 Ints, PER 82.9
19. Scam Newton 252 Att, 8 TD's to 9 Ints, PER 82.8
20 P.Rivers 218 Att, 7 TD's to 9 Ints, PER 82.3

It's just a plain old demonstratable FACT, that the HATERS refuse to look at the available EVIDENCE.
And that's exactly what makes them HATERS instead of just being annalists or even reasonable critics!

They will choose one stat (Comp.%) and harp that Tim is 'inaccurate' but then they will
refuse to see the more important comparisons, such as:

Pass Efficiency and Positive Production:
2010 PER 82.1
2011 PER Preseason 108
2011 PER 91.7
Career PER 85.9

Tebow's TD's per pass attempt = 1 TD per 14.9 Att --- (#1 A.Rogers is 1 TD per 11.95 Att)
Tebow's Int's per pass attempt = 1 Int per 39.7 Att --- (#2 T.Brady is 1 Int per 29.6 Att)
Tebow's TD to Int Ratio = 2.7 to 1 --- (#3 D.Brees TD/Int Ratio is 2.25 to 1)

And yet the HATERS refuse to see that Tim would currently be the #12 QB in the NFL, just as a passer,
without even considering that he is also GREAT if/when he needs to run the ball.

PS
Some would consider Tebow as 2-0 this season. Beat the Dolphins, and the Chargers
(Scoring was Den 15 - 6 SD after Tim took over as QB in that game)

Stats copied from: http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&season=2011&seasonType=REG

Discuss:

Please see my thread to new Bronco fans. You clearly don't know what it is to be a Denver fan and you need a lesson.

GEM
10-25-2011, 12:52 PM
Now I remember why I stopped posting here, it was the many negative anal-lists, as compared to the actual positive Bronco fans ratio...

Yawl have a real anal day now, ya heeeer.... :listen:

Positive BRONCOS fans. Get it?

We don't say ya heeeeer in Denver either. We say **** gator fanboi.

BroncoNut
10-25-2011, 12:54 PM
Reasonable poster critics Buckin gator. You suck

slim
10-25-2011, 12:55 PM
Reasonable poster critics Buckin gator. You suck

Did you know that Elway never had a 40 yard TD run in his career?

Ravage!!!
10-25-2011, 12:59 PM
I wonder how many times I wished Elway had a 40 yrd TD run.... oh yeah, never.

Cugel
10-25-2011, 01:01 PM
It's just a plain old demonstratable FACT, that the HATERS refuse to look at the available EVIDENCE.

And that's exactly what makes them HATERS instead of just being annalists or even reasonable critics!

But. . . but you're not paying rigid attention to my meaningless statistics! That just makes you a "hater." :coffee:

It's been 4 games. There ARE NO MEANINGFUL STATISTICS at this point.

Comparing Tebow's "stats" to John Elway at this point is like comparing a rookie baseball player's batting average after 4 games to Ted William's lifetime average. "But he is batting .420 in his first 4 games! Whoo! Hoo! If he keeps this up he'll shatter Ted William's season batting average!" :rolleyes:

BroncoNut
10-25-2011, 01:04 PM
Did you know that Elway never had a 40 yard TD run in his career?

never considered it. Not how I evaluate the position.

reminds me of a joke

what's the difference between John Elway and OJ Simpson?



One drove a slow white bronco, and one was a slow white bronco

GEM
10-25-2011, 01:05 PM
Gosh sakes.....if the fan bois shut the heck up for awhile....maybe, we would have the chance to feel the same about him. I probably would have already felt that way, but the fanbois make me want to gouge out my eyeballs and boil them. Tebow would probably be so freaking embarrassed to read some of the shit these fanbois spew.

slim
10-25-2011, 01:05 PM
never considered it. Not how I evaluate the position.

reminds me of a joke

what's the difference between John Elway and OJ Simpson?



One drove a slow white bronco, and one was a slow white bronco

Then you don't know how to evaluate QBs.

A running QB trumps all. Everyone knows that.

vandammage13
10-25-2011, 01:06 PM
Fanboi he may be, but he did present some valid evidence which should not be dismissed just because he may have a questionable motive for posting it.

BroncoNut
10-25-2011, 01:07 PM
Then you don't know how to evaluate QBs.

A running QB trumps all. Everyone knows that.

I'm old school Slim.

GEM
10-25-2011, 01:07 PM
Fanboi he may be, but he did present some valid evidence which should not be dismissed just because he may have a questionable motive for posting it.

Comparing Tebow to Elway invalidated anything he said afterwards. Even a non Broncos fan would say the same. So after 4 games, he has done a few things. Can he do that over 17 years? Can he get to a Super Bowl? Can he win a Super Bowl? It's just too early to make those comparison.

claymore
10-25-2011, 01:09 PM
This reminds me of how Clay used to run down Elway to prop up the coach killer.

I just posted stats. Ya'll got mad.

claymore
10-25-2011, 01:09 PM
I just posted stats. Ya'll got mad.

:werd:

vandammage13
10-25-2011, 01:10 PM
Comparing Tebow to Elway invalidated anything he said afterwards. Even a non Broncos fan would say the same.

It doesn't invalidate it if you are capable of separating emotion from the discussion.

BroncoNut
10-25-2011, 01:10 PM
I just posted stats. Ya'll got mad.

You post stats based on your pathetic agenda. you are a piece of shit Clay

GEM
10-25-2011, 01:12 PM
It doesn't invalidate it if you are capable of separating emotion from the discussion.

There is no emotion in saying that you can't compare a guy who has played 4 games to a guy who played 17 years. That's not emotional. Doing something for 4 games doesn't mean he'll continue to do it. Wait til after Tebow has ended his career before making those comparisons.

BroncoNut
10-25-2011, 01:13 PM
There is no emotion in saying that you can't compare a guy who has played 4 games to a guy who played 17 years. That's not emotional. Doing something for 4 games doesn't mean he'll continue to do it. Wait til after Tebow has ended his career before making those comparisons.

No kidding. sounds like Vandy's the one who should check on his rag

slim
10-25-2011, 01:13 PM
I just posted stats. Ya'll got mad.

To be honest, you made some fair points. Elway was terrible his rookie year, just awful.

But Cutler, to this day, isn't a franchise QB. So suck it.

Dreadnought
10-25-2011, 01:14 PM
You post stats based on your pathetic agenda. you are a piece of shit Clay

Claymore plays people, Nut. Its what he does. He is the Master of Puppets.

claymore
10-25-2011, 01:14 PM
You post stats based on your pathetic agenda. you are a piece of shit Clay

Imma going to take a page out Of Tim Tebows book and just say, God Bless you Nut.

MileHighCrew
10-25-2011, 01:15 PM
Gosh sakes.....if the fan bois shut the heck up for awhile....maybe, we would have the chance to feel the same about him. I probably would have already felt that way, but the fanbois make me want to gouge out my eyeballs and boil them. Tebow would probably be so freaking embarrassed to read some of the shit these fanbois spew.

This post is dead on. I want to like him but these fanboi's drive me crazy. I am not anti Tebow, he is the Broncos QB I want him to succeed. But he has done NOTHING yet as a Broncos QB.

GEM
10-25-2011, 01:16 PM
Imma going to take a page out Of Tim Tebows book and just say, God Bless you Nut.

'Preciate it!

BroncoNut
10-25-2011, 01:16 PM
This post is dead on. I want to like him but these fanboi's drive me crazy. I am not anti Tebow, he is the Broncos QB I want him to succeed. But he has done NOTHING yet as a Broncos QB.

stating that doesn't make you hate on him. he's just breaking into games imo. I like what I see, but I am skeptical of his style and even his performance at this time

claymore
10-25-2011, 01:17 PM
To be honest, you made some fair points. Elway was terrible his rookie year, just awful.

But Cutler, to this day, isn't a franchise QB. So suck it.

Elway was Awful alot. We just forget. He had like 4-5 YEARS where he didnt have more TD's than INTs.

He is an all time great, but Cutler looked far better in his first 3 years. I havent paid attention to what he has done since.

weazel
10-25-2011, 01:17 PM
Baltimore County's sewage collection system successfully handles approximately one billion gallons per year through its network of 3,000 miles of pipeline, 116 pumping stations and 60,000 manholes. The average age of the system is approximately 45 years. Over 99 percent of the wastewater handled by the system is pumped safely to wastewater treatment plants without incident.

Never pour grease down sink drains or into toilets.

Pour oils and greases (including salad oils, and bacon fat) into a container such as an old milk carton or other empty non-recyclable container and dispose in the trash. You can also use coffee grounds or kitty litter to absorb the oil.

Do not put grease down garbage disposals. Put baskets/strainers in sink drains to catch food scraps and other solids, and empty the drain baskets/strainers into the trash for disposal.

Dry wipe and scrape grease and food scraps from trays, plates, pots, pans, utensils, and grills and cooking surfaces into a can or the trash for disposal.

BroncoNut
10-25-2011, 01:17 PM
Imma going to take a page out Of Tim Tebows book and just say, God Bless you Nut.

Oh no Clay, don't you give me that "I'll pray for you" bullshit. You are a fraud and a manipulator.

TXBRONC
10-25-2011, 01:18 PM
Oh good lord. I didn't get past the Elway crap.

Black Hole.

While I want Tebow to succeed but should he not I wont miss the Gator fans who are only here because of Tebow.

slim
10-25-2011, 01:18 PM
Elway was Awful alot. We just forget. He had like 4-5 YEARS where he didnt have more TD's than INTs.

He is an all time great, but Cutler looked far better in his first 3 years. I havent paid attention to what he has done since.

Different era, different systems.

Can't compare the numbers.

Elway won, though.

claymore
10-25-2011, 01:19 PM
Oh no Clay, don't you give me that "I'll pray for you" bullshit. You are a fraud and a manipulator.

Nut, may you have a life of happiness forevermore. For amber waves of grain.

OMorange&blue
10-25-2011, 01:19 PM
I just posted stats. Ya'll got mad.

I remember that. You were horrible at analyzing stats. You compared apples to elephant testicles.

BroncoNut
10-25-2011, 01:19 PM
Claymore plays people, Nut. Its what he does. He is the Master of Puppets.

he almost played right into my pants when we first met. I thank God for allowing me to recognize what was going on before I went down on him

OMorange&blue
10-25-2011, 01:22 PM
Different era, different systems.

Can't compare the numbers.

Elway won, though.

Yes you can, you just have to normalize it relative to the league at that time. For example, you don't want to compare completion % directly because the rules have changed so much and things are MUCH easier for QB's these days. So you compare where they ranked in completion %.

That said, we will have to wait until the end of the year to get a good feel for tebow's numbers.

claymore
10-25-2011, 01:23 PM
Different era, different systems.

Can't compare the numbers.

Elway won, though.

Tebow reminds me alot of Elway. He was bad at being a game manager. I dont think we can maximize Tebows talent with this system/McCoy.

BigDaddyBronco
10-25-2011, 01:23 PM
I remember that. You were horrible at analyzing stats. You compared apples to elephant testicles.

Don't let him get started on the Portis-Bailey trade.

claymore
10-25-2011, 01:25 PM
I remember that. You were horrible at analyzing stats. You compared apples to elephant testicles.

I compared QB statistics. I dont know why you guys took offense to that. Completion percentage, turnover ratio, QB rating. they all seemed like comparable stats.

weazel
10-25-2011, 01:26 PM
Don't let him get started on the Portis-Bailey trade.

lol I was pretty angry at that trade too!

slim
10-25-2011, 01:26 PM
Yes you can, you just have to normalize it relative to the league at that time. For example, you don't want to compare completion % directly because the rules have changed so much and things are MUCH easier for QB's these days. So you compare where they ranked in completion %.

That said, we will have to wait until the end of the year to get a good feel for tebow's numbers.

Hey egghead, you would also have to figure out how to account for the different systems (Shanny's system was much more QB friendly). Once you have worked out all the kinks, let me know.

I agree about Tebow, though. But if he has a few more games like last week, he may get benched.

claymore
10-25-2011, 01:26 PM
Don't let him get started on the Portis-Bailey trade.

One of the dumbest moves we could have made. :tsk:

BigDaddyBronco
10-25-2011, 01:28 PM
I compared QB statistics. I dont know why you guys took offense to that. Completion percentage, turnover ratio, QB rating. they all seemed like comparable stats.

Quick question, would you compare the lethality of a musket vs. an M-16 straight up?

vandammage13
10-25-2011, 01:28 PM
There is no emotion in saying that you can't compare a guy who has played 4 games to a guy who played 17 years. That's not emotional. Doing something for 4 games doesn't mean he'll continue to do it. Wait til after Tebow has ended his career before making those comparisons.

I may have missed it (because it was such a long post), but I didn't see any comparisons between Elway and TT made by the OP other than the 15 point comeback deficit...

Doesn't mean TT is as good as Elway or ever will be for that matter, but it was a factual comparison...Didn't see anywhere where the OP said TT was as good as Elway.

He stated that TT has as many 15 point comebacks as does Elway...Like it or not, that is a fact. Doesn't really mean anything beyond that...

GEM
10-25-2011, 01:28 PM
One of the dumbest moves we could have made. :tsk:

Was that the beginning of the end? Hopefully McD was the end.

******* Claymore is a damn genius.

claymore
10-25-2011, 01:29 PM
Quick question, would you compare the lethality of a musket vs. an M-16 straight up?

If they shot the same bullet.

slim
10-25-2011, 01:29 PM
Quick question, would you compare the lethality of a musket vs. an M-16 straight up?

Of course he would....they are both guns, afterall.

claymore
10-25-2011, 01:30 PM
Was that the beginning of the end? Hopefully McD was the end.

******* Claymore is a damn genius.

IMO that was the catalyst to everything.

BroncoNut
10-25-2011, 01:30 PM
IMO that was the catalyst to everything.

do you even know what a catalyst is?

slim
10-25-2011, 01:31 PM
IMO that was the catalyst to everything.

When we drafted Cutler?

claymore
10-25-2011, 01:32 PM
do you even know what a catalyst is?

Yes. :welcome:

Cugel
10-25-2011, 01:33 PM
Elway was Awful alot. We just forget. He had like 4-5 YEARS where he didnt have more TD's than INTs.

He is an all time great, but Cutler looked far better in his first 3 years. I havent paid attention to what he has done since.

Elway was NOT "awful a lot" in his first 4 years.

In his rookie season he finished the NFL's 17th ranked QB which means that as a rookie he was still better than 1/2 the league!


The next season, 1984-85, saw John starting every game for the Broncos, throwing 18 TDs en route to a 12-2 regular season record. (http://www.johnelway.com/JohnElwayBio.aspx)By 1985-86, he was rewriting the Denver record books, making 605 pass attempts for 237 completions and 3,891 yards. With John at the helm, the Broncos led the league in total passing plays and total offense.

"The Drive": The 1986-87 campaign was another stellar statistical year for John, but it will forever be remembered for a single post-season milestone on his journey from star quarterback to NFL legend – a 15-play, 98-yard offensive series in the AFC Championship game now known simply as, "The Drive."

There's this "urban myth" that Elway sucked for years growing up among fans who either have amnesia or aren't old enough to remember Elway's rookie year!

He started week 10 of his rookie year and immediately started making amazing athletic throws that nobody else in the league could hope to make.

He was still raw and made mistakes but it was obvious from the first that he was going to be great. His second season he proved it by leading the team to 12 wins (in a 14 game season). The change was dramatic. A team that had the #4 pick of the draft the year before suddenly started leading the NFL in offense. His fourth year he took Denver to the SB with "The Drive."

And these were Broncos teams that didn't deserve to be in the playoffs let alone the SB. It was exactly like Manning leading the Colts to the SB and when he's lost for the season you see that the team was HORRIBLE without him.

There's just ZERO comparison between John Elway and Tim Tebow other than in the utter delusions of the Tebowniacs. Elway NEVER looked remotely as bad as Tebow did against Miami for 3 1/2 quarters. NEVER!
He never overthrew WRs by 15 yards for instance!

It's like comparing your fat, pimply high-school girlfriend to Jessica Alba!

So, Tebowniacs, you can drop all the Elway comparisons. You're flat wrong about that like you are about everything else. :coffee:

GEM
10-25-2011, 01:33 PM
I may have missed it (because it was such a long post), but I didn't see any comparisons between Elway and TT made by the OP other than the 15 point comeback deficit...

Doesn't mean TT is as good as Elway or ever will be for that matter, but it was a factual comparison...Didn't see anywhere where the OP said TT was as good as Elway.

He stated that TT has as many 15 point comebacks as does Elway...Like it or not, that is a fact. Doesn't really mean anything beyond that...

He started out with the Elway comment. No one really read past that. As said by numerous posters on page one. You just don't do that and not expect that kind of reaction....ESPECIALLY on a Broncos board.

It's all really nice comparisons. If all Tebow ever does for the Broncos is get us that first win in Miami, is that great? Nope. If all he ever does for the Broncos is get a 40 yd dash TD vs the Raiders, is that great? Nope. If all he ever does is play like dog shit the entire game, but then come back in the last 5 min, is that great? Nope. If he continues to have a high YPC, but can't complete more than 50% of his passes, does that make him great? Nope.

That's why it is unreasonable for him to even mention Elway in the comparison. It's been proven that those things made Elway great. Right now all it proves is that Tebow has had a few decent games.

slim
10-25-2011, 01:33 PM
Omo, I am sorry I called you an egghead.

I didn't mean that.

BroncoNut
10-25-2011, 01:34 PM
Yes. :welcome:

i figured so. I blew my trolling wad for the day I think

OMorange&blue
10-25-2011, 01:34 PM
Hey egghead, you would also have to figure out how to account for the different systems (Shanny's system was much more QB friendly). Once you have worked out all the kinks, let me know.

I agree about Tebow, though. But if he has a few more games like last week, he may get benched.

I do. You can't. But you can make some reasonable decisions in selecting data sets and present them with a caveat.

claymore
10-25-2011, 01:36 PM
When we drafted Cutler?

It led to that.

Denver has a habit of replacing players with players that cannot produce the same output.

Yes Champ was the best at his position. Maybe a HOF'er. But he couldnt put points on the board, nor could he prevent (singlehandedly) teams from scoring on us.

We gave up a bonofied threat, for someone you avoid most of the time. One who added points, for someone who was a "sure" tackler.

Champ changed the outcome of a few games, but in the ZB scheme Portis changed most of the games.

slim
10-25-2011, 01:36 PM
I do. You can't. But you can make some reasonable decisions in selecting data sets and present them with a caveat.

I agree. You can certainly make the numbers somewhat comparable.

But I think we both agree that Clay jumped the shark with his "statically analysis".

BigDaddyBronco
10-25-2011, 01:37 PM
When we drafted Cutler?

We haven't hada winning season since we drafted Cutler. Coincidence? He was the curse that kept on giving.

claymore
10-25-2011, 01:37 PM
Elway was NOT "awful a lot" in his first 4 years.

In his rookie season he finished the NFL's 17th ranked QB which means that as a rookie he was still better than 1/2 the league!



There's this "urban myth" that Elway sucked for years growing up among fans who either have amnesia or aren't old enough to remember Elway's rookie year!

He started week 10 of his rookie year and immediately started making amazing athletic throws that nobody else in the league could hope to make.

He was still raw and made mistakes but it was obvious from the first that he was going to be great. His second season he proved it by leading the team to 12 wins (in a 14 game season). His third year he took Denver to the SB with "The Drive."

And these were Broncos teams that didn't deserve to be in the playoffs let alone the SB. It was exactly like Manning leading the Colts to the SB and when he's lost for the season you see that the team was HORRIBLE without him.

There's just ZERO comparison between John Elway and Tim Tebow other than in the utter delusions of the Tebowniacs. Elway NEVER looked remotely as bad as Tebow did against Miami for 3 1/2 quarters. NEVER!

He never overthrew WRs by 15 yards for instance!

So, Tebowniacs, you can drop all the Elway comparisons. You're flat wrong about that like you are about everything else. :coffee:

Elway was a turnover machine.

Dreadnought
10-25-2011, 01:38 PM
Was that the beginning of the end? Hopefully McD was the end.

******* Claymore is a damn genius.

Except not in re: Portis-Bailey, or Knowshon Moreno. He was wrong there. Its OK. I was wrong about Lenny Walls, too. Clay is sound on most of the big issues, e.g. McDaniels, Plummer, Cutler, Orton, etc. We don't actually know where he stands re: Tebow because he is having too much fun messing with people

slim
10-25-2011, 01:38 PM
We haven't hada winning season since we drafted Cutler. Coincidence? He was the curse that kept on giving.

coach killer.

OMorange&blue
10-25-2011, 01:39 PM
I agree. You can certainly make the numbers somewhat comparable.

But I think we both agree that Clay jumped the shark with his "statically analysis".

Absolutely. I called him on it then, and I called him on it today. Apples to elephant testicles. Absolutely horrible analysis.

BigDaddyBronco
10-25-2011, 01:39 PM
Except not in re: Portis-Bailey, or Knowshon Moreno. He was wrong there. Its OK. I was wrong about Lenny Walls, too. Clay is sound on most of the big issues, e.g. McDaniels, Plummer, Cutler, Orton, etc. We don't actually know where he stands re: Tebow because he is having too much fun messing with people

Claymore was wrong on Plummer-Cutler. So were most people. :coffee:

BigDaddyBronco
10-25-2011, 01:40 PM
coach killer.

CoK6.

Dreadnought
10-25-2011, 01:42 PM
Claymore was wrong on Plummer-Cutler. So were most people. :coffee:

Cutler >>>> Plummer

Scientific fact, except to you and Jrwiz

BroncoNut
10-25-2011, 01:42 PM
In defense of Clay, he is right most of the time and he is aggressive in his predictions.

claymore
10-25-2011, 01:42 PM
Absolutely. I called him on it then, and I called him on it today. Apples to elephant testicles. Absolutely horrible analysis.

I compared them on stats. Generic overall stats. Something every fan does every day to compare players.

Its never going to be a 100% accurate because of wind speed and mood rings... Ya'll are just upset because it doesnt fit your argument.

BigDaddyBronco
10-25-2011, 01:42 PM
Cutler >>>> Plummer

Scientific fact, except to you and Jrwiz

Except in winning.

weazel
10-25-2011, 01:42 PM
Cutler >>>> Plummer

Scientific fact, except to you and Jrwiz

I think we would be over .500 right now if Plummer was here. not that it would be any better though

BroncoNut
10-25-2011, 01:43 PM
Cutler >>>> Plummer

Scientific fact, except to you and Jrwiz

OMG, without a doubt. And I like Plummer. BDB thinks the opposite? What a dick

slim
10-25-2011, 01:44 PM
Cutler >>>> Plummer

Scientific fact, except to you and Jrwiz

Cutler is the most overrated Broncos player in recent memory.

BigDaddyBronco
10-25-2011, 01:45 PM
Cutler is the most overrated Broncos player in recent memory.

Cutler = Orton with beter tools

claymore
10-25-2011, 01:46 PM
Cutler is the most overrated Broncos player in recent memory.

I think Plummer was. Cutler, Elway and Plummer were all better with Shanahan though. I think thats the missing piece.

slim
10-25-2011, 01:46 PM
Cutler = Orton with beter tools

The proof is in the pudding.

I am sure Dread and Clay will come up with a bunch of fancy, meaningless stats.....I guess it is hard to admit when you are wrong.

OMorange&blue
10-25-2011, 01:47 PM
I compared them on stats. Generic overall stats. Something every fan does every day to compare players.

Its never going to be a 100% accurate because of wind speed and mood rings... Ya'll are just upset because it doesnt fit your argument.

I know what you did, and it was laughable. Mouth breather.

BigDaddyBronco
10-25-2011, 01:48 PM
I know what you did, and it was laughable. Mouth breather.

BS, claymore breaths through his trach hole.

claymore
10-25-2011, 01:48 PM
I know what you did, and it was laughable. Mouth breather.

Yes. I compared stats.

claymore
10-25-2011, 01:50 PM
The proof is in the pudding.

I am sure Dread and Clay will come up with a bunch of fancy, meaningless stats.....I guess it is hard to admit when you are wrong.

Them damn numbers that actually count, and prove something took place. :tsk:

slim
10-25-2011, 01:51 PM
Them damn numbers. :tsk:

OK, enough of that shit.

Did you wear your Orton shirt to the game on Sunday?

OMorange&blue
10-25-2011, 01:52 PM
Yes. I compared stats.

You compared numbers. Random numbers with no statistical analysis.

Monkey.

claymore
10-25-2011, 01:53 PM
OK, enough of that shit.

Did you wear your Orton shirt to the game on Sunday?

Yes, Tubby Liked it. I wish I would have been able to spend more time with Tubby and Beef. I effed that opportunity up. :mad:

BigDaddyBronco
10-25-2011, 01:53 PM
You compared numbers. Random numbers with no statistical analysis.

Monkey.

I mean Jay Cutler is much better than Sid Luckman, just look at the stats.

Cugel
10-25-2011, 01:53 PM
I do. You can't. But you can make some reasonable decisions in selecting data sets and present them with a caveat.

Well, here's a newsflash: THERE ARE NO "DATA SETS" YET! None!

After this season, we can compare Tebow to Elway's first season (when he started 10 games). Of course Tebow won't look good at all by that comparison so I doubt any Tebowniacs will make it.

Comparing Elway's second season to Tebow's second season would make him look like utter dog crap of course since Elway led the league in passing in 1985 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1985/passing.htm).

Unless Tebow leads the Broncos to the NFL's #1 offense and a 13-3 record THIS season like Elway did in 1984 don't bother making any comparisons! And in Elway's 3rd and 4th seasons the team went 11-5 both years and made the playoffs and went to the SB in 1986.

claymore
10-25-2011, 01:54 PM
You compared numbers. Random numbers with no statistical analysis.

Monkey.

QB rating Int to TD ratio, yards, YPA... Did you want wind speed and sun spots in the equation?

OMorange&blue
10-25-2011, 01:55 PM
QB rating Int to TD ratio, yards, YPA... Did you want wind speed and sun spots in the equation?

http://i52.tinypic.com/2luqmtf.jpg

vandammage13
10-25-2011, 01:56 PM
He started out with the Elway comment. No one really read past that. As said by numerous posters on page one. You just don't do that and not expect that kind of reaction....ESPECIALLY on a Broncos board.

It's all really nice comparisons. If all Tebow ever does for the Broncos is get us that first win in Miami, is that great? Nope. If all he ever does for the Broncos is get a 40 yd dash TD vs the Raiders, is that great? Nope. If all he ever does is play like dog shit the entire game, but then come back in the last 5 min, is that great? Nope. If he continues to have a high YPC, but can't complete more than 50% of his passes, does that make him great? Nope.

That's why it is unreasonable for him to even mention Elway in the comparison. It's been proven that those things made Elway great. Right now all it proves is that Tebow has had a few decent games.

I just don't get that line of thinking....

Yeah...Elway is the greatest ever. I still relish those memories, but Elway is gone. Has been for over a decade.

I see the comparisons as reason to be optimistic that the kid is doing more good than bad out there so far, not as a reason to get all butt hurt because someone mentioned Tebow and Elway in the same sentence.

Still been waiting for us to get a QB that can get us back to the SB, and I'm hoping maybe we finally have that guy.

So seeing comparisons to Elway does not offend me, but gives me hope that maybe this guy can get it done...TT is a Bronco, after all...

I would not be offended if TT ended up eclipsing Elway. I don't think he will, but I would welcome it if he did because that would be good for the Broncos and good for me as a fan.

Cherish the past but don't live in it...

BigDaddyBronco
10-25-2011, 01:57 PM
Yes, Tubby Liked it. I wish I would have been able to spend more time with Tubby and Beef. I effed that opportunity up. :mad:

Make up for it on Dec. 11.

claymore
10-25-2011, 01:57 PM
I mean Jay Cutler is much better than Sid Luckman, just look at the stats.

Id say Cutler is alot better than Sid Luckman. If you inserted Luckman into The bears 2011 he would be terrible.

Insert Cutler into the bears 1930/40 or whatever and he would dominate.

slim
10-25-2011, 01:57 PM
I like how you guys turned a worthless thread into something entertaining.

claymore
10-25-2011, 01:58 PM
Make up for it on Dec. 11.

Im going to be with Slim in Phonex in Dec. Or else I would.

claymore
10-25-2011, 01:59 PM
http://i52.tinypic.com/2luqmtf.jpg

cant see the pic at work.

slim
10-25-2011, 01:59 PM
Im going to be with Slim in Phonex in Dec. Or else I would.

I thought we were keeping this on the DL?

slim
10-25-2011, 01:59 PM
cant see the pic at work.

It is a picture of you trying to count to three.

vandammage13
10-25-2011, 01:59 PM
Tebow reminds me alot of Elway. He was bad at being a game manager. I dont think we can maximize Tebows talent with this system/McCoy.

Whaaaat did you say?? Huh??

You should be crucified for making such a ridiculous comparison!!!

OMorange&blue
10-25-2011, 02:00 PM
cant see the pic at work.

You wouldn't get it anyway.

slim
10-25-2011, 02:01 PM
Whaaaat did you say?? Huh??

You should be crucified for making such a ridiculous comparison!!!

We are not done crucifying him for his position on Cutler, yet.

First things first.

BigDaddyBronco
10-25-2011, 02:01 PM
Id say Cutler is alot better than Sid Luckman. If you inserted Luckman into The bears 2011 he would be terrible.

Insert Cutler into the bears 1930/40 or whatever and he would dominate.

Yea, a dried up corpse of Sid Luckman would suck on the 2011 Bears.

claymore
10-25-2011, 02:01 PM
I thought we were keeping this on the DL?

I must have been high on paint chips when we talked aboot it. I gotta go there in Dec though. You going to be around?

slim
10-25-2011, 02:02 PM
I must have been high on paint chips when we talked aboot it. I gotta go there in Dec though. You going to be around?

Yeah, I should be.

BigDaddyBronco
10-25-2011, 02:02 PM
Im going to be with Slim in Phonex in Dec. Or else I would.

When?

claymore
10-25-2011, 02:05 PM
Whaaaat did you say?? Huh??

You should be crucified for making such a ridiculous comparison!!!

IMO, and Ive always thought this... But Elway just didnt fit in Reeves system. I thought he looked uncomfortable, and kinda shitty until it was go time. It seemed like he over thought things.

But, get him to the last 2 minutes of the game, where he only had to react, and not think and he was solid gold.

JMO... I wont change my mind, you probably wont change yours.

claymore
10-25-2011, 02:07 PM
Yeah, I should be.


When?

anywhere from the 20th to the 1st. Plans arent set in stone. ALSO, if my wife re-nigs on the tickets to phonex, I wll go to denver, and we can all call Slim a faggot for not coming.

vandammage13
10-25-2011, 02:07 PM
IMO, and Ive always thought this... But Elway just didnt fit in Reeves system. I thought he looked uncomfortable, and kinda shitty until it was go time. It seemed like he over thought things.

But, get him to the last 2 minutes of the game, where he only had to react, and not think and he was solid gold.

JMO... I wont change my mind, you probably wont change yours.

I actually agree with you....I don't know if you could tell but I was being facetious in my previous post.

claymore
10-25-2011, 02:09 PM
I actually agree with you....I don't know if you could tell but I was being facetious in my previous post.

I get it now. Sorry about that. :laugh:

slim
10-25-2011, 02:09 PM
I actually agree with you....I don't know if you could tell but I was being facetious in my previous post.

Next time try to incorporate some statistics in your post, so Clay can follow what you are saying.

slim
10-25-2011, 02:10 PM
anywhere from the 20th to the 1st. Plans arent set in stone. ALSO, if my wife re-nigs on the tickets to phonex, I wll go to denver, and we can all call Slim a faggot for not coming.

Last week of December me and the wife are both off work. I'm not sure if we are going anywhere, but it's a possibility.

claymore
10-25-2011, 02:11 PM
Next time try to incorporate some statistics in your post, so Clay can follow what you are saying.

Yeah, but put astriks next to them informing omoSexual that wind speed and lunar eclipses werent taken into account.

BigDaddyBronco
10-25-2011, 02:18 PM
anywhere from the 20th to the 1st. Plans arent set in stone. ALSO, if my wife re-nigs on the tickets to phonex, I wll go to denver, and we can all call Slim a faggot for not coming.

Boing!!!

God, I hope your wife is a re-******.

slim
10-25-2011, 02:20 PM
Boing!!!

God, I hope your wife is a re-******.

I don't think you can say that in Broncos talk.

claymore
10-25-2011, 02:20 PM
Boing!!!

God, I hope your wife is a re-******.

She better not be. :mad: I want to see the Granf Canuon.

BigDaddyBronco
10-25-2011, 02:23 PM
She better not be. :mad: I want to see the Granf Canuon.

Better bring a coat, it will be colder than shyt in December.

Tell you what, if you go to the Granf Canuon let me know, I'm only like 3 hours away and will be off that last week of December.

slim
10-25-2011, 02:24 PM
Better bring a coat, it will be colder than shyt in December.

Tell you what, if you go to the Granf Canuon let me know, I'm only like 3 hours away and will be off that last week of December.

Hmmmm....I could maybe drive up north one day too.

claymore
10-25-2011, 02:24 PM
Better bring a coat, it will be colder than shyt in December.

Tell you what, if you go to the Granf Canuon let me know, I'm only like 3 hours away and will be off that last week of December.

Hell yeah. How far from Phoniex are you?

slim
10-25-2011, 02:25 PM
Hell yeah. How far from Phoniex are you?

The Granf Canoun isn't in Phoenix, stat boy.

BigDaddyBronco
10-25-2011, 02:25 PM
Hell yeah. How far from Phoniex are you?

Bout 6 hrs. I could come down there too.

LTC Pain
10-25-2011, 02:26 PM
Another maniacal Tebow groupie added to the Ignore List......

BigDaddyBronco
10-25-2011, 02:27 PM
Another maniacal Tebow groupie added to the Ignore List......

Don't try and re-rail this thread. We effed it up good.

slim
10-25-2011, 02:28 PM
Don't try and re-rail this thread. We effed it up good.

It is past the point of no return.

vettesplus
10-25-2011, 02:30 PM
John Elway was one of, if the not the best QB, in NFL history,,,, a given imo.

However:

~ John never had a 40 yard run from scrimmage for a TD, Tebow already has plus two more 20+ yd runs.
* Tebow is one of only 3 QB's to ever have a 30+ (33) yd pass for a TD and a 40 yd run for a TD in the same game in NFL History,
and Tim did that in his very first NFL start in Oakland's Black Hole.

~ In John's long and glorious NFL career, he had two 13+ pt 4th quarter come from behind wins.
* Tebow, in just 4 NFL starts, has already had two 13+ pt 4th quarter come from behind wins.

~ Tebow is the only Bronco QB in Team History to get a win in Miami over the Phins, (1-7 all time).

Tebow has been more 'efficient' as a QB, than the QB that was the #1 pick in his draft, as a rookie and in his 2nd season.
(Career PER - Tebow 85.9 -- Bradford 75.4 even though SB has full support and is the full time starter, before injured)
But the idiotic HATERS will still claim that Tim should have gone in the 3-4 rnd as a FB, instead of just admitting that they are PROVEN FoS.

Tebow was been more 'productive' running the ball as a rookie than All Pro FB Mike 'A-Train' Alstott was.
Haters claimed he'd get killed running it and are again PROVEN FoS.

Tebow has had a better YPC, plus as many rushing TD's as any Bronco RB in 2010, and in 2011 so far.
Tebow 2010 - 82.2 PER with 5 TD's to 3 Ints, PLUS 5.3 ypc with 6 TD's.
Tebow 2011 - 91.7 PER with 3 TD's to 0 Ints, PLUS 6.8 ypc, 1 TD, (8.1 ypc in the Miami game).
>> No off season prep (lockout), change of coach and system, little help or support, and yet he has still improved.

And yet there are some NFL scouts and Media Morons that still claim that Tebow will:
- Not be a winning NFL QB (he's already 2-2 with little preparation or help).
- Claim that Tim does not have what it takes to even be an NFL QB, (refuse to just look at the stats).
- Continue to hope that he will fail and/or be forced to switch position to RB/FB/TE (which he could probably also play at the NFL level btw).

Critics are just fine with me and needed, when they are ACCURATE & FAIR with their analysis and opinions.

Otherwise they just become petty despicable HATERS who deserve all of the disrespect that Football fans in general can heap on them.

My own (fans) opinion is:
~ Tebow has done very well so far;
~ given the media circus distractions,
~ lack of practice and playing time,
~ no post-rookie off-season due to the lockout,
~ exacerbated by the coaching and system change from year 1 to year 2,
~ lack of overall talent and depth on the offense.
* A general lack of any 'real' faith or support from the new coach, GM, or owner, which is a cryin' shame imoho.
(that's not just a claim on my part either - Preseason TT 108, KO 104, BQ 69)

Tim's one positive is that his fans, and more importantly his teammates, like him, have faith in him, and support him as the Bronco QB.

Not a fanatic, not making any unsupported claims on the present or for the future, just being supportive and willing to give Tim
or any other player their 'earned on the field' due respect....

Tebow's Career Statistics: G 13 - GS 4 - Starter W/L 2-2

Passing - 58 of 119, 48.7%, > 8 TD's to 3 Ints < 13 sac for 69 yds, 85.9 PER
(On 119 attempts, only 3 Ints, a 2.7 to 1 TD/Int ratio)

Rushing - 58 for 329 yds, 5.7 ypc, 7 TD's, 2 Fum, ZERO lost poss fumbles.
(On 177 total snaps from center,
only 2 fumbles, 0 lost poss fumbles)

* Feel free to list all of the other NFL QB's that have a 59 to 1 snap to turnover ratio.
** Tim is averaging less than 1 TO per start so far.
================

Tebow has not been given much of an opportunity so far, so comparisons are difficult, however,
if we use Tim's 1+ year career stats some comparisons can then be made:

For the rest of these QB's we will use the current 2011 season stats.
2011 NFL QB, listed by QB Pass Efficiency Rating in decending order:

9. A.Smith 158 Att, 8 TD's to 2 Ints, PER 95.2
10. T.Romo 217 Att, 10 TD's to 6 Ints, PER 93.4
11. M.Hasselbeck 211 Att, 10 TD's to 6 Ints, PER 87.7

** T.Tebow 119 Att, 8 TD's to 3 Ints, PER 85.9 (career)

12. C.Painter 119 Att, 5 TD's to 2 Ints, PER 85.2
13. M.Vick 200 Att, 9 TD's to 8 Ints, PER 84.4
14. A.Dalton 189 Att, 7 TD's to 5 Ints, PER 84.3
15. J.Campbell 165 Att, 6 TD's to 4 Ints, PER 84.2
16. J.Cutler 232 Att, 9 TD's to 6 Ints, PER 84.0
17. M.Sanchez 231 Att, 12 TD's to 6 Ints, PER 83.0
18. D.McNabb 156 Att, 4 TD's to 2 Ints, PER 82.9
19. Scam Newton 252 Att, 8 TD's to 9 Ints, PER 82.8
20 P.Rivers 218 Att, 7 TD's to 9 Ints, PER 82.3

It's just a plain old demonstratable FACT, that the HATERS refuse to look at the available EVIDENCE.
And that's exactly what makes them HATERS instead of just being annalists or even reasonable critics!

They will choose one stat (Comp.%) and harp that Tim is 'inaccurate' but then they will
refuse to see the more important comparisons, such as:

Pass Efficiency and Positive Production:
2010 PER 82.1
2011 PER Preseason 108
2011 PER 91.7
Career PER 85.9

Tebow's TD's per pass attempt = 1 TD per 14.9 Att --- (#1 A.Rogers is 1 TD per 11.95 Att)
Tebow's Int's per pass attempt = 1 Int per 39.7 Att --- (#2 T.Brady is 1 Int per 29.6 Att)
Tebow's TD to Int Ratio = 2.7 to 1 --- (#3 D.Brees TD/Int Ratio is 2.25 to 1)

And yet the HATERS refuse to see that Tim would currently be the #12 QB in the NFL, just as a passer,
without even considering that he is also GREAT if/when he needs to run the ball.

PS
Some would consider Tebow as 2-0 this season. Beat the Dolphins, and the Chargers
(Scoring was Den 15 - 6 SD after Tim took over as QB in that game)

Stats copied from: http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&season=2011&seasonType=REG

Discuss:


holey crap you have alot of time on your hands....

LTC Pain
10-25-2011, 02:33 PM
Don't try and re-rail this thread. We effed it up good.

This thread was never on a rail. It's just another biased rant by TT groupies, period. And frankly, threads like this distract me from Broncos football.

Dzone
10-25-2011, 03:52 PM
I had Subway for lunch. Those are very boring sandwiches and I dont understand why Subway is so huge. They now say that there are more Subways than Mcdonalds.
That stat makes no sense to me. Subway sucks.

Dzone
10-25-2011, 03:56 PM
This thread was never on a rail. It's just another biased rant by TT groupies, period. And frankly, threads like this distract me from Broncos football.
Ya, I wonder if anyone read thru that eye straining OP...I read a couple paragraphs and that was it for me:coffee:
They are discussing on the radio what kind of Halloween candy Tebow will be giving out ...He probably doesnt celebrate Halloween, its too satanic:cool:

MOtorboat
10-25-2011, 07:16 PM
The Granf Canoun isn't in Phoenix, stat boy.

What in the hell is a Granf Canoun?

WARHORSE
10-25-2011, 09:03 PM
And Tebow only fans can go back to the Florida forums.

And the Phins....you really want to go there? One of the best statistical QB's in history and could never even sniff the SB. Get outta here with this shit. Don't compare Tebow to Elway...he would be offended that you would.

And Urban Meyer should be bitch slapped for letting a guy with the "IT" factor, go through college never learning how to be a pro-QB. He goes to the pros and he will suck.

Hey.........how come moderators get to cuss and we dont?


Jess a thought........:coffee:




:D

dogfish
10-25-2011, 09:26 PM
pardon me for just one second, fellas, i gotta say something here. . . .




A couple of meaningless cherrypicked stats.


http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/2217/tm1239c.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/52/tm1239c.jpg/)


get the **** out, clown!

:welcome:


seriously. . .


okay, back to your regularly-scheduled mayhem. . .

sneakers
10-26-2011, 02:50 AM
I'm hungry for your poo! Don't make me starve!

Jsteve01
10-26-2011, 09:09 AM
how did I miss this steaming pile of poo. This reminds me of the pictures Tubby used to post when he determined it was time for a thread to die.


Oh and clay eff you for comparing Cutler to Elway you bastage.

T.K.O.
10-26-2011, 09:55 AM
and this one time.......Kyle Orton had the most rushing yards for the broncos.
yeah really he did:beer:

slim
10-26-2011, 10:04 AM
What in the hell is a Granf Canoun?

I'm not sure, ask Clay.

BroncoNut
10-26-2011, 10:06 AM
how did I miss this steaming pile of poo. This reminds me of the pictures Tubby used to post when he determined it was time for a thread to die.


Oh and clay eff you for comparing Cutler to Elway you bastage.

Jsteve, thinking about starting a clique, you want in?

Jagsbch
10-26-2011, 10:56 AM
I think caution should be taken in comparing Tebow and Elway as close as the op tries. At this point, they are two different eras of football. Apples and Oranges.

Tell that to Dan Marino, whose stats make Elway look like a tool. Same Era

claymore
10-26-2011, 10:57 AM
I dont like Dan Marino so stats dont count.

slim
10-26-2011, 10:59 AM
Tell that to Dan Marino, whose stats make Elway look like a tool. Same Era

**** off, Dolphin fan.

Mike
10-26-2011, 11:07 AM
Tell that to Dan Marino, whose stats make Elway look like a tool. Same Era

Marino was a better passer. Elway was more athletic and the better player.

Also, it helped that Marino played for Shula instead of Reeves.

MileHighCrew
10-26-2011, 12:08 PM
Marino is the Charles Barkley of the NFL, Good stats, won nothing, talks too much on TV. He should shut up and listen to Shannon Sharpe more.

GEM
10-26-2011, 12:43 PM
Tell that to Dan Marino, whose stats make Elway look like a tool. Same Era

Yea...all except where it freaking matters.

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!!!

GEM
10-26-2011, 12:46 PM
Hey.........how come moderators get to cuss and we dont?


Jess a thought........:coffee:




:D

Shit, bitch, ****. One of these things just doesn't belong. :lol:

vandammage13
10-26-2011, 12:51 PM
Yea...all except where it freaking matters.

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!!!

Elway is the GOAT, but as a fan of the game, I have to say that Marino was a winner too.

Guy won a lot of games on some teams with pretty mediocre talent in the 90's...If it was him that had TD at the end of his career Marino might be the one retiring with 2 SB's and not Elway.

Still, I would rather have Elway because I think he was every bit the passer but had some extra mobility and playmaking skills to go with it...But Marino was great.

FlyByU
10-26-2011, 01:03 PM
John Elway was one of, if the not the best QB, in NFL history,,,, a given imo.

However:

~ John never had a 40 yard run from scrimmage for a TD, Tebow already has plus two more 20+ yd runs.
* Tebow is one of only 3 QB's to ever have a 30+ (33) yd pass for a TD and a 40 yd run for a TD in the same game in NFL History,
and Tim did that in his very first NFL start in Oakland's Black Hole.

~ In John's long and glorious NFL career, he had two 13+ pt 4th quarter come from behind wins.
* Tebow, in just 4 NFL starts, has already had two 13+ pt 4th quarter come from behind wins.

~ Tebow is the only Bronco QB in Team History to get a win in Miami over the Phins, (1-7 all time).

Tebow has been more 'efficient' as a QB, than the QB that was the #1 pick in his draft, as a rookie and in his 2nd season.
(Career PER - Tebow 85.9 -- Bradford 75.4 even though SB has full support and is the full time starter, before injured)
But the idiotic HATERS will still claim that Tim should have gone in the 3-4 rnd as a FB, instead of just admitting that they are PROVEN FoS.

Tebow was been more 'productive' running the ball as a rookie than All Pro FB Mike 'A-Train' Alstott was.
Haters claimed he'd get killed running it and are again PROVEN FoS.

Tebow has had a better YPC, plus as many rushing TD's as any Bronco RB in 2010, and in 2011 so far.
Tebow 2010 - 82.2 PER with 5 TD's to 3 Ints, PLUS 5.3 ypc with 6 TD's.
Tebow 2011 - 91.7 PER with 3 TD's to 0 Ints, PLUS 6.8 ypc, 1 TD, (8.1 ypc in the Miami game).
>> No off season prep (lockout), change of coach and system, little help or support, and yet he has still improved.

And yet there are some NFL scouts and Media Morons that still claim that Tebow will:
- Not be a winning NFL QB (he's already 2-2 with little preparation or help).
- Claim that Tim does not have what it takes to even be an NFL QB, (refuse to just look at the stats).
- Continue to hope that he will fail and/or be forced to switch position to RB/FB/TE (which he could probably also play at the NFL level btw).

Critics are just fine with me and needed, when they are ACCURATE & FAIR with their analysis and opinions.

Otherwise they just become petty despicable HATERS who deserve all of the disrespect that Football fans in general can heap on them.

My own (fans) opinion is:
~ Tebow has done very well so far;
~ given the media circus distractions,
~ lack of practice and playing time,
~ no post-rookie off-season due to the lockout,
~ exacerbated by the coaching and system change from year 1 to year 2,
~ lack of overall talent and depth on the offense.
* A general lack of any 'real' faith or support from the new coach, GM, or owner, which is a cryin' shame imoho.
(that's not just a claim on my part either - Preseason TT 108, KO 104, BQ 69)

Tim's one positive is that his fans, and more importantly his teammates, like him, have faith in him, and support him as the Bronco QB.

Not a fanatic, not making any unsupported claims on the present or for the future, just being supportive and willing to give Tim
or any other player their 'earned on the field' due respect....

Tebow's Career Statistics: G 13 - GS 4 - Starter W/L 2-2

Passing - 58 of 119, 48.7%, > 8 TD's to 3 Ints < 13 sac for 69 yds, 85.9 PER
(On 119 attempts, only 3 Ints, a 2.7 to 1 TD/Int ratio)

Rushing - 58 for 329 yds, 5.7 ypc, 7 TD's, 2 Fum, ZERO lost poss fumbles.
(On 177 total snaps from center,
only 2 fumbles, 0 lost poss fumbles)

* Feel free to list all of the other NFL QB's that have a 59 to 1 snap to turnover ratio.
** Tim is averaging less than 1 TO per start so far.
================

Tebow has not been given much of an opportunity so far, so comparisons are difficult, however,
if we use Tim's 1+ year career stats some comparisons can then be made:

For the rest of these QB's we will use the current 2011 season stats.
2011 NFL QB, listed by QB Pass Efficiency Rating in decending order:

9. A.Smith 158 Att, 8 TD's to 2 Ints, PER 95.2
10. T.Romo 217 Att, 10 TD's to 6 Ints, PER 93.4
11. M.Hasselbeck 211 Att, 10 TD's to 6 Ints, PER 87.7

** T.Tebow 119 Att, 8 TD's to 3 Ints, PER 85.9 (career)

12. C.Painter 119 Att, 5 TD's to 2 Ints, PER 85.2
13. M.Vick 200 Att, 9 TD's to 8 Ints, PER 84.4
14. A.Dalton 189 Att, 7 TD's to 5 Ints, PER 84.3
15. J.Campbell 165 Att, 6 TD's to 4 Ints, PER 84.2
16. J.Cutler 232 Att, 9 TD's to 6 Ints, PER 84.0
17. M.Sanchez 231 Att, 12 TD's to 6 Ints, PER 83.0
18. D.McNabb 156 Att, 4 TD's to 2 Ints, PER 82.9
19. Scam Newton 252 Att, 8 TD's to 9 Ints, PER 82.8
20 P.Rivers 218 Att, 7 TD's to 9 Ints, PER 82.3

It's just a plain old demonstratable FACT, that the HATERS refuse to look at the available EVIDENCE.
And that's exactly what makes them HATERS instead of just being annalists or even reasonable critics!

They will choose one stat (Comp.%) and harp that Tim is 'inaccurate' but then they will
refuse to see the more important comparisons, such as:

Pass Efficiency and Positive Production:
2010 PER 82.1
2011 PER Preseason 108
2011 PER 91.7
Career PER 85.9

Tebow's TD's per pass attempt = 1 TD per 14.9 Att --- (#1 A.Rogers is 1 TD per 11.95 Att)
Tebow's Int's per pass attempt = 1 Int per 39.7 Att --- (#2 T.Brady is 1 Int per 29.6 Att)
Tebow's TD to Int Ratio = 2.7 to 1 --- (#3 D.Brees TD/Int Ratio is 2.25 to 1)

And yet the HATERS refuse to see that Tim would currently be the #12 QB in the NFL, just as a passer,
without even considering that he is also GREAT if/when he needs to run the ball.

PS
Some would consider Tebow as 2-0 this season. Beat the Dolphins, and the Chargers
(Scoring was Den 15 - 6 SD after Tim took over as QB in that game)

Stats copied from: http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&season=2011&seasonType=REG

Discuss:

Good Post :beer:

OMorange&blue
10-26-2011, 01:14 PM
Shit, bitch, ****. One of these things just doesn't belong. :lol:

GEM, you going to drink tonight?

dogfish
10-26-2011, 04:27 PM
Tell that to Dan Marino, whose stats make Elway look like a tool. Same Era

elway's not the one that looks like a tool here. . .


http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/3135/elway6125.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/210/elway6125.jpg/)



http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/6427/1187781980okdi5x.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/716/1187781980okdi5x.jpg/)



:welcome:

sneakers
10-26-2011, 04:38 PM
LOL at this thread

sneakers
10-26-2011, 04:57 PM
Tell that to Dan Marino, whose stats make Elway look like a tool. Same Era

Dan Marino can die of Gonorrhea and rot in hell, would you like a cookie son?

MOtorboat
10-26-2011, 05:10 PM
Dan Marino can die of Gonorrhea and rot in hell, would you like a cookie son?

Bam!

weazel
10-26-2011, 05:18 PM
John Elway was one of, if the not the best QB, in NFL history,,,, a given imo.

However:

~ John never had a 40 yard run from scrimmage for a TD, Tebow already has plus two more 20+ yd runs.
* Tebow is one of only 3 QB's to ever have a 30+ (33) yd pass for a TD and a 40 yd run for a TD in the same game in NFL History,
and Tim did that in his very first NFL start in Oakland's Black Hole.

~ In John's long and glorious NFL career, he had two 13+ pt 4th quarter come from behind wins.
* Tebow, in just 4 NFL starts, has already had two 13+ pt 4th quarter come from behind wins.

~ Tebow is the only Bronco QB in Team History to get a win in Miami over the Phins, (1-7 all time).

Tebow has been more 'efficient' as a QB, than the QB that was the #1 pick in his draft, as a rookie and in his 2nd season.
(Career PER - Tebow 85.9 -- Bradford 75.4 even though SB has full support and is the full time starter, before injured)
But the idiotic HATERS will still claim that Tim should have gone in the 3-4 rnd as a FB, instead of just admitting that they are PROVEN FoS.

Tebow was been more 'productive' running the ball as a rookie than All Pro FB Mike 'A-Train' Alstott was.
Haters claimed he'd get killed running it and are again PROVEN FoS.

Tebow has had a better YPC, plus as many rushing TD's as any Bronco RB in 2010, and in 2011 so far.
Tebow 2010 - 82.2 PER with 5 TD's to 3 Ints, PLUS 5.3 ypc with 6 TD's.
Tebow 2011 - 91.7 PER with 3 TD's to 0 Ints, PLUS 6.8 ypc, 1 TD, (8.1 ypc in the Miami game).
>> No off season prep (lockout), change of coach and system, little help or support, and yet he has still improved.

And yet there are some NFL scouts and Media Morons that still claim that Tebow will:
- Not be a winning NFL QB (he's already 2-2 with little preparation or help).
- Claim that Tim does not have what it takes to even be an NFL QB, (refuse to just look at the stats).
- Continue to hope that he will fail and/or be forced to switch position to RB/FB/TE (which he could probably also play at the NFL level btw).

Critics are just fine with me and needed, when they are ACCURATE & FAIR with their analysis and opinions.

Otherwise they just become petty despicable HATERS who deserve all of the disrespect that Football fans in general can heap on them.

My own (fans) opinion is:
~ Tebow has done very well so far;
~ given the media circus distractions,
~ lack of practice and playing time,
~ no post-rookie off-season due to the lockout,
~ exacerbated by the coaching and system change from year 1 to year 2,
~ lack of overall talent and depth on the offense.
* A general lack of any 'real' faith or support from the new coach, GM, or owner, which is a cryin' shame imoho.
(that's not just a claim on my part either - Preseason TT 108, KO 104, BQ 69)

Tim's one positive is that his fans, and more importantly his teammates, like him, have faith in him, and support him as the Bronco QB.

Not a fanatic, not making any unsupported claims on the present or for the future, just being supportive and willing to give Tim
or any other player their 'earned on the field' due respect....

Tebow's Career Statistics: G 13 - GS 4 - Starter W/L 2-2

Passing - 58 of 119, 48.7%, > 8 TD's to 3 Ints < 13 sac for 69 yds, 85.9 PER
(On 119 attempts, only 3 Ints, a 2.7 to 1 TD/Int ratio)

Rushing - 58 for 329 yds, 5.7 ypc, 7 TD's, 2 Fum, ZERO lost poss fumbles.
(On 177 total snaps from center,
only 2 fumbles, 0 lost poss fumbles)

* Feel free to list all of the other NFL QB's that have a 59 to 1 snap to turnover ratio.
** Tim is averaging less than 1 TO per start so far.
================

Tebow has not been given much of an opportunity so far, so comparisons are difficult, however,
if we use Tim's 1+ year career stats some comparisons can then be made:

For the rest of these QB's we will use the current 2011 season stats.
2011 NFL QB, listed by QB Pass Efficiency Rating in decending order:

9. A.Smith 158 Att, 8 TD's to 2 Ints, PER 95.2
10. T.Romo 217 Att, 10 TD's to 6 Ints, PER 93.4
11. M.Hasselbeck 211 Att, 10 TD's to 6 Ints, PER 87.7

** T.Tebow 119 Att, 8 TD's to 3 Ints, PER 85.9 (career)

12. C.Painter 119 Att, 5 TD's to 2 Ints, PER 85.2
13. M.Vick 200 Att, 9 TD's to 8 Ints, PER 84.4
14. A.Dalton 189 Att, 7 TD's to 5 Ints, PER 84.3
15. J.Campbell 165 Att, 6 TD's to 4 Ints, PER 84.2
16. J.Cutler 232 Att, 9 TD's to 6 Ints, PER 84.0
17. M.Sanchez 231 Att, 12 TD's to 6 Ints, PER 83.0
18. D.McNabb 156 Att, 4 TD's to 2 Ints, PER 82.9
19. Scam Newton 252 Att, 8 TD's to 9 Ints, PER 82.8
20 P.Rivers 218 Att, 7 TD's to 9 Ints, PER 82.3

It's just a plain old demonstratable FACT, that the HATERS refuse to look at the available EVIDENCE.
And that's exactly what makes them HATERS instead of just being annalists or even reasonable critics!

They will choose one stat (Comp.%) and harp that Tim is 'inaccurate' but then they will
refuse to see the more important comparisons, such as:

Pass Efficiency and Positive Production:
2010 PER 82.1
2011 PER Preseason 108
2011 PER 91.7
Career PER 85.9

Tebow's TD's per pass attempt = 1 TD per 14.9 Att --- (#1 A.Rogers is 1 TD per 11.95 Att)
Tebow's Int's per pass attempt = 1 Int per 39.7 Att --- (#2 T.Brady is 1 Int per 29.6 Att)
Tebow's TD to Int Ratio = 2.7 to 1 --- (#3 D.Brees TD/Int Ratio is 2.25 to 1)

And yet the HATERS refuse to see that Tim would currently be the #12 QB in the NFL, just as a passer,
without even considering that he is also GREAT if/when he needs to run the ball.

PS
Some would consider Tebow as 2-0 this season. Beat the Dolphins, and the Chargers
(Scoring was Den 15 - 6 SD after Tim took over as QB in that game)

Stats copied from: http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&season=2011&seasonType=REG

Discuss:

long posts are ghey...


In the course of researching another topic, I recently happened across Doug Yurchey’s essay “The Nature of Black Holes and Quasars,”1 which is posted here at World Mysteries.com. Although this article is generally well-written (there are, however, several stylistic faults present), the statements by Mr. Yurchey seem to indicate that he has misinterpreted some of the fundamental concepts of classical physics in addition to several facets of quantum mechanics. The purpose of this essay is to clarify these misconceptions and then to show that Mr. Yurchey’s conclusions are, in fact, not supported by the body of evidence relating to these two natural phenomena.
Before examining Mr. Yurchey’s contentions regarding black holes and quasars, we should first establish what black holes and quasars are before addressing what they are not. Without resorting to complex mathematics or long-winded definitions, black holes and quasars can be defined as follows:

A black hole is an object of such incredible density that its intense gravitational field prevents any object (including light) from “breaking free.”

A quasar (QUAsi-StellAR radio source) is an extremely powerful energy source that arises from matter interacting with the gravitational fields of supermassive black holes at the center of galaxies located at tremendous distances from our Milky Way galaxy.2

While it will be necessary to expand upon these definitions during the course of this reply, they will serve our immediate purpose. We can now turn our attention to where it appears that Mr. Yurchey appears to misunderstand the established scientific facts concerning both black holes and quasars.
Perhaps his most fundamental error is this statement:
The Laws of Physics are not the same everywhere. The physical laws of riding on a light beam are very different than the laws governing the stationary world…3
The laws of physics are universal, constant, and understandable. The fact that our understanding of these laws may be incomplete in no way implies that each region of the universe has laws that are not found in other regions. For example Newton’s Law of Universal Gravitation applies to the gravity that holds us to the surface of planet Earth as well as to the gravity that governs the motion of the entire galaxy or even clusters of galaxies.
The same principle applies to his hypothetical light beam analogy. According to the Theory of Special Relativity if you were riding on a single photon of light (your “inertial frame of reference”) time would pass at exactly the same rate as if you were standing still, you would still be subject to the laws of nature, and light would have the same velocity relative to you. To an outside observer things would be radically different but, relative to you, things would be the same as if you were not moving at all.
Mr. Yurchey’s misinterpretation of the gravitational mechanics involved in the various physical phenomena of black holes is suggested in another statement:

For Black Holes to do what they do, all the laws of Physics must be off! Things just vaporizing should not, normally, happen. Where is the balance in nature? … How can we believe in anything if our basic principles of nature are not within firm foundation? 4

The laws of physics, particularly the laws of gravity and conservation of momentum, are perfectly preserved in and near black holes. In order to appreciate the significance of this, we must first understand the weakest force in the universe: gravity.
According to Einstein’s Theory of General Relativity, what we experience as a gravitational attraction (such as the Earth pulling on our feet) is the result of a concentration of mass (the Earth) that is sufficient to cause a distortion of our local space-time environment. In terms of the classic “rubber sheet and bowling ball” analogy, the more mass you have, the greater the distortion that occurs (Figure 1). We can also think of the Earth’s mass creating a “gravity well” with us near the bottom of this well..5 We will return to this analogy soon



Figure 1
The distortion of space-time caused by a concentration of mass.
(Credit: Wikipedia Foundation).
When the mass of an object is expressed as a function of the volume that the object occupies, we can state that the object has a certain density. The larger the amount of mass present, the higher the object’s density.6 It is obvious that the denser the object the greater its distortion of its local space-time and the deeper the “gravity well” that it produces.
The process which produces a black hole is beyond the scope of this reply and those readers interested in this topic should consult one of the many print or online resources devoted to this topic. For current purposes it will be sufficient to say that in a black hole the density of its core is so high that it produces a gravity well with “walls” so “steep” that not even light, traveling at 186,000 miles per second, has enough velocity to escape. In other words, any object falling into a black hole can never escape but this does not mean that it has violated any known law of physics.
In his essay Mr. Yurchey reproduces an apparently-unanswered e-mail from himself to Leonard Susskind, a physicist at Stanford University7, in which he claims that the phenomena known as quasars are actually the “opposite ends” of black holes. In doing so he seems to have again misinterpreted the available observational and theoretical data.

Mr. Yurchey’s statement “The info-matter-energy through a Black Hole leaves our universe...and comes out another universe” is simply incorrect. According to the laws of gravity and quantum physics, any matter falling into a black hole is compressed by gravity into what is known as a singularity, an area whose density approaches infinity but does not reach that “magical” number. It does not, as Mr. Yurchey claims, go anywhere. It remains within our universe, although undetectable, and thus does not violate the Law of Conservation of Matter as Mr. Yurchey alleges. As to the state of matter comprising the singularity, this question remains unresolved.

Regarding his opinion that quasars and black holes are in some way connected (“Go in a Black Hole, come out a Quasar…”), Mr. Yurchey also appears to misunderstand the now-abundant evidence that quasars are actually supermassive black holes (black holes with masses ranging from 10 thousand to 1 billion times the mass of the Sun) 8 at the center of galaxies varying between 0.7 to 13 billion light years from Earth.9
In support of his claim that quasars are the location at which matter eventually emerges from a black hole, he argues that there is no other possible explanation for the tremendous amounts of energy known to be associated with quasars. Once again, he is incorrect and again misunderstands the abundant evidence to the contrary.
All black holes, including the supermassive ones, are surrounded by what is known as an accretion disk (Figure 2). The accretion disk itself is composed of matter that has been “captured” by the black hole’s gravitational field but has not yet crossed the boundary from which escape is impossible. This rotating cloud of matter is heated to very high temperatures by friction as the actual atoms collide with increasing frequency. The result of this heating is that the atoms begin to emit photons of energy that fall not only within the visible range but, as the temperatures increase, well into the gamma-ray end of the spectrum as well.10



Figure 2
Artist’s conception of a black hole. The accretion disk is represented by the multicolored swirls surrounding the light-colored center. The structure seen emerging at a right angle to the central disc represents charged particles trapped in the black hole’s electromagnetic field (Credit: NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center).


While the above mentioned items can be explained as misinterpretations, Mr. Yurchey’s last contention borders upon the incredulous:
When we photograph some Quasars, there are huge jets of matter-debris-energy stretched and extending out the distance of many light-years. It is reasonable that these 'jets' are material planets and whole solar systems shooting out the Quasar at incredible speeds. [Emphasis added] 11

In his essay he includes the following image, apparently a photographic negative (Figure 3).12





Figure 3
One again Mr. Yurchey seems to have either misunderstood or ignored the principles of high school mathematics. A simple exercise will demonstrate his error.
The object in Figure 3 is indeed a quasar known as 3C273. It also has the distinction of being the first quasar to be discovered (in 1963) and, even at a distance of around 2.2 billion light years,13 is so bright that it can be observed with a backyard telescope. But at that distance not even the Hubble Space Telescope or its successor, the James Web Space Telescope, would be able to detect a solar system! Furthermore, the “dots” in the above images (which Mr. Yurchey claims to be planets and solar systems), would have to be several light years in diameter to even appear in the image since the jet itself is 100,000 light years in length (our home galaxy, the Milky Way, is estimated to be 100,000 light years across). Since a solar system, by definition, consists of a star and at least one planet orbiting at some distance from that star, it follows that solar systems are over 99% empty space.

Now, let’s take a look at what other observations of 3C273 have shown.


Figure 4
(Left) False-color image denoting areas of mass concentrations.
(Right) False-color image demonstrating the intensity of electromagnetic radiation at various regions within the jet originating from 3C273.
(Credit: Jordell Bank Observatory).

Both Figures 4 (above) and 5 (below) further refute Mr. Yurchey’s statement regarding “…planets and whole solar systems…”



Figure 5
A composite, false-color, image of the same jet as above utilizing data from the Hubble Space Telescope (HST); the Very Large Array radiotelescope (VLA); the Chandra X-ray Observatory, and the Spitzer Infrared Observatory. Blue denotes areas producing x-rays; green is for optical light, and red is for infrared emission. The image has been rotated for editorial purposes. (Credit: Yale University).
The actual cause of the jet seen in Figures 3, 4, and 5 is the quasar’s electromagnetic field, which exists as a consequence of the rapid motion of electrons trapped by gravity within the accretion disc. From our high school science classes, we know that any moving electrical current produces its own magnetic field. In the case of quasars and black holes, this magnetic field is enormously powerful. Since the orientation of this field is always at a 90-degree angle to the plane of rotation (the right hand rule of mathematics and physics), this is the source of the jet (Figure 6).14



Figure 6
The right hand rule. Note the direction of rotation (B) and the orientation
of the resulting force vector. (Credit: Wikipedia Foundation).
Mr. Yurchey’s last contention also falls within the realm of the incredulous:
Passengers in light-beam saucers certainly survive the hyper jumps through space. To the crew moving at warp-speed, they are not moving at all; it is the universe that beams in the opposite direction! [Emphasis added]15
Mr. Yurchey’s resort to “light beam saucers” as “proof” of his “theory” only serves to demonstrate the extent of his misinterpretation of established scientific principles. If Mr. Yurchey would produce some evidence that such vehicles actually exist it might enhance his credibility.
This essay has attempted to call attention to several misconceptions that are central to Mr. Yurchey’s hypothesis regarding both black holes and quasars. While there is no doubt that he is sincere in his beliefs his supporting “evidence” is, at best, tenuous there can be no questioning of his zealotry. Unfortunately, in his haste to inform the world of his discovery, he has committed so many errors in reasoning that it would not be improper to question whether errors are due to a willful disregard of the available evidence. Since the previously discussed errors and/or omissions are central to Mr. Yurchey’s thesis, the thesis itself cannot support itself and should be dismissed as untenable.

Lancane
10-26-2011, 06:22 PM
Tell that to Dan Marino, whose stats make Elway look like a tool. Same Era

:rofl:

O'kay Forrest!

Jsteve01
10-26-2011, 06:25 PM
Jsteve, thinking about starting a clique, you want in?

lol as long as it doesn't involve drinking with you or me strutting around in my banana hammock Im in!

Jsteve01
10-26-2011, 06:31 PM
Tell that to Dan Marino, whose stats make Elway look like a tool. Same Era

lmao you clearly have zero grasp of Broncos history douche. Name off all the Pro Bowl Wide receivers John had to throw to prior to Shanny.

Here's a short list.........

Then compare Shula to Reeves.

Then go ahead and take into account mishaps like passing on Carl Pickens, perennial all pro, to draft Tommy Maddox.

Dreadnought
10-26-2011, 08:07 PM
lmao you clearly have zero grasp of Broncos history douche. Name off all the Pro Bowl Wide receivers John had to throw to prior to Shanny.

Here's a short list.........

Then compare Shula to Reeves.

Then go ahead and take into account mishaps like passing on Carl Pickens, perennial all pro, to draft Tommy Maddox.

You forgot Steve Watson. He was a Pro Bowler. Elway only had him from 83 to 86 though, so the point stands

BroncoNut
10-26-2011, 09:42 PM
lol as long as it doesn't involve drinking with you or me strutting around in my banana hammock Im in!

congrats. You qualify. Welcome aboard

MOtorboat
10-26-2011, 10:20 PM
You forgot Steve Watson. He was a Pro Bowler. Elway only had him from 83 to 86 though, so the point stands

And he was a pro bowler well before Elway was on the team...

Joel
10-27-2011, 12:57 AM
Anal-itss it is, as usal.

After they hire Meyer, please, trade Tebow to Miami while burning the draft barn with multiple draft picks. :elefant:

Then Denver can quickly go back to their previous all time record at Miami vs the Phins very quickly..... :beer:

And the rest here can go back to and/or continue to swinging on the long past glory.... :coffee:

PS

It's a really good thing that the few here DO NOT represent the vast majority of Bronco fans. :listen:
Saying stuff like this pretty much destroys all credibility and makes VERY clear why the OP stopped posting here. We already knew Gator fans love Tebow, but the Florida Gators are neither here nor there to the Denver Broncos. I can't and don't speak for every Broncos fan, but, for my part, anyone who's only here as long as Tebow is and will just as rabidly follow him to another team if he's traded is welcome and encouraged to do it now and avoid the rush.

Oh, and as far as Tebows pro performance based on his statistical "average:" Averages based on FOUR starts are next to worthless, because one or two anomalous results in a very small sample skew the hell out of an average. There's a reason QBs aren't eligible for the NFL passing title until they attempt 224 passes (it works out to 14/game). Tebow's just over halfway there--in his CAREER, not this season. When he's got a few hundred (or few thousand) attempts, then we can talk about things like Passer Rating (which is ultimately just a weighted average for attempts.) Right now we are still very much in "wait and see" mode, and if Tebow doesn't get a lot more accurate in a hurry what we will see is that, over time, playing crappy football for 55 minutes will produce awful stats even with 5 minutes of stellar football to compensate.

Canmore
10-27-2011, 01:14 AM
Saying stuff like this pretty much destroys all credibility and makes VERY clear why the OP stopped posting here. We already knew Gator fans love Tebow, but the Florida Gators are neither here nor there to the Denver Broncos. I can't and don't speak for every Broncos fan, but, for my part, anyone who's only here as long as Tebow is and will just as rabidly follow him to another team if he's traded is welcome and encouraged to do it now and avoid the rush.

Well said. I certainly don't know how Tebow will turn out. The jury is still out. Hopefully, Fox and especially McCoy will turn Tebow loose and play the game. The offensive play calling in the Miami game was putrid.

We've got ten more games for Tim's audition, hopefully he gets the whole stage to shine on. When given a chance, Tebow has produced touchdowns. That said, This isn't Kansas Toto and it's time for Tim to say I'm here in the NFL. Not For Long with the production he showed in the first 55 minutes versus the Dolphins. The final 5 was magical.

For the Tebow only fans, get on board with the whole program or get of of the wagon.

Dreadnought
10-27-2011, 08:32 AM
And he was a pro bowler well before Elway was on the team...

1981. Elway joined in 83. Thats not "well before", and in any event Watson remained an elite WR through 86.

BroncoNut
10-27-2011, 08:48 AM
Well said. I certainly don't know how Tebow will turn out. The jury is still out. Hopefully, Fox and especially McCoy will turn Tebow loose and play the game. The offensive play calling in the Miami game was putrid.

We've got ten more games for Tim's audition, hopefully he gets the whole stage to shine on. When given a chance, Tebow has produced touchdowns. That said, This isn't Kansas Toto and it's time for Tim to say I'm here in the NFL. Not For Long with the production he showed in the first 55 minutes versus the Dolphins. The final 5 was magical.

For the Tebow only fans, get on board with the whole program or get of of the wagon.

ditto, but also like Joel was getting at, or so I think, is that the 55 minutes of crappy play is/will/maybe/hopefully (will) be insignificant in the big picture when that materializes to more accurately critique him as an NFL QB. Too early to start referencing the NFL acronym in regard to this matter, in my opinion anyway.

Poet
10-27-2011, 11:05 AM
I was right.

claymore
10-27-2011, 11:08 AM
I was right.

Did you choose the right kinda pancakes for break fast?

Poet
10-27-2011, 11:10 AM
Implying that I would fail at that is disrespectful.

I forgive you.

I Eat Staples
10-27-2011, 11:13 AM
It doesn't invalidate it if you are capable of separating emotion from the discussion.

So saying Tebow is better than Peyton Manning because Manning never had a 40 yard TD run is valid?

Poet
10-27-2011, 11:17 AM
I don't get why you guys think it's insulting that Marino could be considered better than elway.

That's perfectly reasonably.

Once you hit the top most elite tier it's just preference.

Poet
10-27-2011, 11:25 AM
Tom Brady, Peyton manning, brett favre and Andy Dalton are all better than elway too.

Poet
10-27-2011, 11:25 AM
Cutler and Plummer too.

slim
10-27-2011, 11:27 AM
Cutler and Plummer too.

OR is a better person and a better poster than you.

So is jagsbitch.

Poet
10-27-2011, 11:29 AM
If they can troll and be asses with no repercussions I can too.

Dreadnought
10-27-2011, 11:30 AM
OR is a better person and a better poster than you.

So is jagsbitch.

Yeah, King stepped over the line there. I think I hate him now as much as Rex does.

I will agree though that running down a Great like Dan Marino is as dumb as running down a great like John Elway. They were both superb QB's, deserved HOFers...unlike, say, Terry Bradshaw

slim
10-27-2011, 11:30 AM
If they can troll and be asses with no repercussions I can too.

No, you can't. I won't allow it.

Now **** or I will bring the pain.

Poet
10-27-2011, 11:33 AM
Rex does not hate me.

Dread, you don't hate me. After my first rant years ago on why I hate vegans and art degrees you formed a soft spot.

Slim, you don't want these problems.

Dreadnought
10-27-2011, 11:38 AM
Rex does not hate me.

Dread, you don't hate me. After my first rant years ago on why I hate vegans and art degrees you formed a soft spot.

Slim, you don't want these problems.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. OK, King, I like you again, I forgot myself. Just don't say dopey stuff about John Elway, that's all.

I'm pretty sure Rex hates you though. I may have to ask.

Poet
10-27-2011, 11:42 AM
Rex does not hate me. It may be a love hate relationship, but he does not truly hate me.

Even if he did, he's still my role model.

I take back my elway comments.

Dzone
10-27-2011, 11:54 AM
LOL..Tebowing has replaced planking...OMG whats next?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/913212-tim-tebow-sparks-awesome-tebowing-craze-you-must-include-in-your-daily-routine

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/912896-hottest-stories-in-sports-for-thursday-oct-27

Jsteve01
10-28-2011, 02:15 PM
You forgot Steve Watson. He was a Pro Bowler. Elway only had him from 83 to 86 though, so the point stands
His only pro bowl year was 1981

Joel
10-29-2011, 02:24 AM
ditto, but also like Joel was getting at, or so I think, is that the 55 minutes of crappy play is/will/maybe/hopefully (will) be insignificant in the big picture when that materializes to more accurately critique him as an NFL QB. Too early to start referencing the NFL acronym in regard to this matter, in my opinion anyway.
Well, it cuts both ways, really: On the one hand, 5 minutes is a very small sample for a 60 minute game; on the other hand, one game is a proportionately small sample for a whole season, and a negligible portion of the infamous "franchise QB"s career. If Tebow spends the next decade playing like he did those last 5 minutes, no one will remember the first 55; if his career looks like the first 55 minutes it will be very brief, and no one will remember those last 5 minutes. Either way, 60 minutes (or 240) isn't enough for a reliable decade long forecast. Right now Tebow's got a little curl: When he's good, he's very VERY good, but when he's bad he's horrid.

When it comes to stats, QBs are evaluated by averages, weighted for TDs, Ints and accuracy (the last one too much, IMHO, even for a guy who'll trade distance for accuracy every day of the week, and twice on Sunday. ;)) Part of that means uncommon anomalies, be they good or bad, even out--ultimately; in the mean time, a dart board's about as reliable a predictor as a Passer Rating. Last Sundays game illustrates why.

Looking at Tebows stats last week, it's a measure (literally) of how good those last 5 minutes were that, even completing <50% of his passes in a formula where that's the most important stat, NFL.com still shows him with a PR of 91.7, which is pretty darn good (he had a 101.7 vs. the Chargers game, but only threw 10 passes, so it's hard to take that seriously.) Doing the math makes it easy to see why Tebow fans are so psyched:

100X(13X20+161+2X80-0X100)+50/24=91.74382716.
27X24

The 48% completions and 6 YPA are terrible, but 8% TDs and 0% Ints are phenomenal. HOWEVER, the PRS helped immensely by not counting sacks (even though nearly all sacks are pass attempts gone horribly wrong.)

100X(13X20+131+2X80-0X100)+50/24=71.6540404
33X24

A mere half dozen (admittedly pretty bad) plays sink Tebows PR 20 points, from an impressive 91.7 to a pedestrian 71.7.

That's the problem with computing averages from a very small sample size: Even a few very/good samples make the prediction so imprecise Tebows passes look surgical by comparison. :tongue: When you were in school, which did you prefer: Grades largely based on a dozen or two homework assignments, or on two or three tests? Unless you're SURE you'll never bomb even one test, the answer has to be the former; it's more work, but as long as you DO that work your final grade should be good.

Hopefully, that will be the ultimate lesson from and for our very talented but very raw starting QB. Most reports say he has the work ethic, and with a guy like Elway to mentor him the opportunity should be there. While I still prefer accuracy to arm strength, one (and only one) of them can be LEARNED by willing people with good teachers. Whether we'll ever reach that goal, however, let alone how CLOSE we are, is impossible to say this early in the game, and anyong guaranteeing success or failure is pretty much making an uneducated guess. When we know more, we'll know more.

FanInAZ
10-29-2011, 03:01 AM
I had Subway for lunch. Those are very boring sandwiches and I dont understand why Subway is so huge. They now say that there are more Subways than Mcdonalds.
That stat makes no sense to me. Subway sucks.

Subways are much smaller restaurants that probably need 1/3 to 1/4 of the number of employees to operate them. They also need far less in terms of appliances to prepare their food. That's why you can open one in just about any strip mall while the majority of McDonalds requires standalone restaurants.

FanInAZ
10-29-2011, 03:21 AM
Tell that to Dan Marino, whose stats make Elway look like a tool. Same Era

Yes, Dan Marino, & Dan Fouts before him, both had multi-year stretches in which they put up stats that made all other QBs look like tools. They both benefited from the best WR juggernauts of their time. Elway's were mediocre at best. If you give Elway the WRs that those 2 had when they were putting up all of those stats, then it would be Elway's records that everyone would be trying to break.