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silkamilkamonico
12-30-2008, 09:20 PM
- 91-69
- 4 playoff appearances/6 missed playoffs
- 4-5 in playoff determining games
- 3 playoff embarrassments
- 1 playoff win

I like Shanahan, but someone explain to me how we're "really going to miss Shanahan".

You wanna argue won/loss %, I'll argue meaningful game records.

You can have a coach that wins regular season games. I want a coach that wins in the playoffs.

BigDaddyBronco
12-30-2008, 09:25 PM
- 91-69
- 4 playoff appearances/6 missed playoffs
- 4-5 in playoff determining games
- 3 playoff embarrassments
- 1 playoff win

I like Shanahan, but someone explain to me how we're "really going to miss Shanahan".

You wanna argue won/loss %, I'll argue meaningful game records.

You can have a coach that wins regular season games. I want a coach that wins in the playoffs.
Then to think we had San Diego, the Raiders, and the Chiefs all of which have had terrible stretches over the last 10 years and he might be more of a .500 coach.

Tned
12-30-2008, 09:30 PM
- 91-69
- 4 playoff appearances/6 missed playoffs
- 4-5 in playoff determining games
- 3 playoff embarrassments
- 1 playoff win

I like Shanahan, but someone explain to me how we're "really going to miss Shanahan".

You wanna argue won/loss %, I'll argue meaningful game records.

You can have a coach that wins regular season games. I want a coach that wins in the playoffs.

Now list how many teams were significantly better than that, regular season and playoffs, and how many were worse. Then you will understand.

Dreadnought
12-30-2008, 09:30 PM
Dumb argument, with all due respect. Just silly. A coach the likes of Shanahan come along for a team once a generation - if they are lucky as Hell.

Odds say we are more likely to hire the next Rod Marinelli than the next Bill Belichick. Maybe not, but thats not the likelihood. We haven't finished in the Cellar for a long time. I suggest we better get used to the idea.

silkamilkamonico
12-30-2008, 09:31 PM
Now list how many teams were significantly better than that, regular season and playoffs, and how many were worse. Then you will understand.

Understand what? So that's your goal? To win regular season games? You sound like a Charger fan.

BigDaddyBronco
12-30-2008, 09:32 PM
Dumb argument, with all due respect. Just silly. A coach the likes of Shanahan come along for a team once a generation - if they are lucky as Hell.

Odds say we are more likely to hire the next Rod Marinelli than the next Bill Belichick. Maybe not, but thats not the likelihood. We haven't finished in the Cellar for a long time. I suggest we better get used to the idea.
Not as long as Al Davis is alive.

silkamilkamonico
12-30-2008, 09:34 PM
Dumb argument, with all due respect. Just silly. A coach the likes of Shanahan come along for a team once a generation - if they are lucky as Hell.


Along with a plethora of playoff blowoutt losses. Thanks Mike Shanahan for embarrassing us on National TV with your pi$$ poor version of "defense", a 24-24 record the last 3 years, and 1 playoff win every 10 years.

Norv Turner surpassed that last season alone.

silkamilkamonico
12-30-2008, 09:35 PM
You're guy's arguments are falsified.

"Who cares about winning playoff games, when we can have a good coach".

Dreadnought
12-30-2008, 09:37 PM
No I care about winning as many games as possible, developing the best players and system possible, and building the best team possible. You do those things right and the playoff wins come. The "playoff games" argument is 100% bogus.

Tned
12-30-2008, 09:38 PM
Understand what? So that's your goal? To win regular season games? You sound like a Charger fan.

WTF are you trash talking me? "you sound like a charger fan"

Why not try and make your points without slamming me? Just a thought.

silkamilkamonico
12-30-2008, 09:40 PM
No I care about winning as many games as possible, developing the best players and system possible, and building the best team possible. You do those things right and the playoff wins come. The "playoff games" argument is 100% bogus.

1)As many games as possible. Shanny was good at this. In the regular season.

2)Developing the best players as possible. Shanny isn't very good at this. I could argue every one of our defensive players regressed. Developinging? Unless you're a QB, not a Shanny strongsuit.

3)System? For offense, yea. For defense, no.

4)The playoff argument is hardly bogus. "You play, to win, regular season games!"

Requiem / The Dagda
12-30-2008, 09:41 PM
I respect Mike Shanahan for the job he did here and think he's a Hall of Fame coach. There is no doubt that he has been riding the wave of success from his Super Bowl victories; and there is no doubt that the past five years have been nothing but mediocre. We're like the 90s version of the Miami Dolphins. A team always picked to do something great, but always dropped the ball. That is just the truth.

Coaches like Mike Shanahan are hard to come by, but that doesn't mean change isn't good. I don't think this is a dumb argument at all. Our team wasn't going anywhere. I don't know if Shanahan was the guy we needed to get rid of to make it go places -- but something had to be done, and his head rolled.

Mike Shanahan is all I know for the Broncos, he has been coach ever since I started watching the team in 1995/1996. It'll be weird to not see him out there -- but it'll also be something I welcome. When it comes to Denver, the coaches and some players -- they have that "Can do no wrong." tag with them. Shanahan certainly deserves a lot of criticism and in many ways, probably deserved to get canned. I can think of many reasons outside what you mentioned.

Good thoughts Silka. I respect and will miss Shanahan, but the guy wasn't perfect. Lets not act like he was -- but don't worry, people will. Just get used to it.

silkamilkamonico
12-30-2008, 09:41 PM
WTF are you trash talking me? "you sound like a charger fan"

Why not try and make your points without slamming me? Just a thought.

I'm not trash talking you. I don't understand your logic of winning regular season games. That's a Charger argument.

You want a better coach than Shanahan in the last 10 years? Here's one. Norv Turner.

Poet
12-30-2008, 09:41 PM
- 91-69
- 4 playoff appearances/6 missed playoffs
- 4-5 in playoff determining games
- 3 playoff embarrassments
- 1 playoff win

I like Shanahan, but someone explain to me how we're "really going to miss Shanahan".

You wanna argue won/loss %, I'll argue meaningful game records.

You can have a coach that wins regular season games. I want a coach that wins in the playoffs.

He simply isn't a good coach anymore.

silkamilkamonico
12-30-2008, 09:43 PM
Let this be clear than I am a big Shanahan fan. He did great things for Denver, and he's a great Coach. He's in a position in Denver where it's too big for him. He is not a GM.

And as far as the team goes, it's quite obvious from the last 10 years that this thing with Shanahan just isn't going anywhere.

Do you want to win regular season games or do you want a resemblance of a dynasty? Over the last 3 years, Denver has had neither.

Dreadnought
12-30-2008, 09:45 PM
He simply isn't a good coach anymore.

King, I love you like a (much) younger Brother, but a Bengals fan wouldn't know a good coach if it bit him in the Ass. Just wanted that to be clear :D

Tned
12-30-2008, 09:48 PM
I'm not trash talking you. I don't understand your logic of winning regular season games. That's a Charger argument.

You want a better coach than Shanahan in the last 10 years? Here's one. Norv Turner.

That's stupid, no offense. "That's a Charger argument" That doesn't even make sense. There is no such thing as a "Charger argument".

What you did was not agree with me, so you attempted to slam me, rather than debate me. Your choice, I just think it is a bit classless to go around calling people Charger fans because they hold a different opinion than yours.

JKcatch724
12-30-2008, 09:49 PM
Time for a change. Might as well embrace it. I'm excited for a fresh start, to be honest (Providing Bowlen hires the right guy.) What's done is done, might as well be optimistic about the future.

Mike
12-30-2008, 09:51 PM
To me it was more than the playoff record. It was the consistent playing down to opponents...players not playing with any fire/motivation...

Any person can lose their fire when staying in one place for too long. I truly believe that was the case for Shanahan.

For the naysayers, yes there is the possibility that Denver will regress. I feel that given Denver's murderous schedule upcoming that it is likely they will finish below .500. But, tell me, 100% that you feel Mike hadn't lost his edge...that despite the same problems year-in and year-out (yes, the same problems for the last 8 years or so), that he had the Broncos in the hunt for the SB next season. Keep in mind that while the offense has been rebuilt, it is also coming up on contract extensions for many of those young stars. Look at the shelf-life in SD...their window is closing after 4 years. Mike lost his edge and needed to be revitalized. The past two seasons culminating in the blowout with the division on the line just highlights this fact. He lost the players, as I suspect he has done over the last few years. By the time Shanahan had the defense set, the offense might be split up or past its best years by the time he fixes the defense...he hasn't done it in the last 10 years, so when would he get it done?

The players are there...hire competent d-coord and d-line coach...make a move for one key defensive player and build through the draft. All Denver needs is for a healthy/solid running game and a top 20 defense to be in the playoff/SB hunt.

So while there is the possibility of failure...the pieces are there to take up and make noise with. A hungry upcoming coach with a strong d-coord or a strong defensive minded coach who is willing to let the offense coaches handle that side of the ball and this team is ready. Maybe not next year, but the year after isn't out of the question.

I am excited for an infusion of fresh blood. Of course, if they hire a retread or promote Bates to HC I will be more than disappointed.

Poet
12-30-2008, 09:57 PM
King, I love you like a (much) younger Brother, but a Bengals fan wouldn't know a good coach if it bit him in the Ass. Just wanted that to be clear :D

Sure I would. I watched Cowher decimate the AFC North for years. I watched Belicheck do what was seemingly impossible by creating a dynasty in today's game. I've seen what Holmgreen has done, I've seen what Parcells.

I've seen what flash-in-the-pan coaches like Steve Mariuchi, Denny Green, and Mangini are.

I've learned what a good coach is by looking at what the opposite of what Marvin Lewis and other old Bengal coaches really are.

Shanahan was once great. Now, his coordinators suck, your team comes out flat too much, Cutler may need to be curbed a bit, his schemes are bad, and three years of no playoffs should equal fired for any franchise.

He is past his prime as a head coach in Denver. Somewhere else, maybe he can rekindle the spark. However, as a GM far too many fans have voiced their complaints.

As of this moment, he is not a good head coach.

Dreadnought
12-30-2008, 09:58 PM
Mike, what I fear is some dud who comes in here with "his" guys and "his" offensive system - thereby screwing the whole deal. I could actually almost live with bates if he'll leave the offense in place and has a ghost of a clue what to do with it.

Getting a brand spanking D coordinator goes without saying. They can blow that whole mess up if they have to.

Requiem / The Dagda
12-30-2008, 09:59 PM
Way to talk some sense King. Smack these guys up. You Bengals lovin' foo.

Poet
12-30-2008, 10:00 PM
Way to talk some sense King. Smack these guys up. You Bengals lovin' foo.

Dream thinks I am right.

With that in mind, I admit to being wrong. Dreadnought, I apologize.

silkamilkamonico
12-30-2008, 10:01 PM
That's stupid, no offense. "That's a Charger argument" That doesn't even make sense. There is no such thing as a "Charger argument".

What you did was not agree with me, so you attempted to slam me, rather than debate me. Your choice, I just think it is a bit classless to go around calling people Charger fans because they hold a different opinion than yours.


Good grief. I'm sorry. Not sure how it's "slam", considering their organization is a lot stronger than Denver's this decade.

I'm a little disappointed in fellow Bronco fans who are still satisfied with what happened 10 years ago, and use it as a free pass, because the fact of the matter is, it clearly isn't working out with Shanahan and Denver right now.


But because he's a "good coach", that fact that it isn't working out doesn't seem to matter to some people.

Requiem / The Dagda
12-30-2008, 10:01 PM
You tricked me.

MasterShake
12-30-2008, 10:02 PM
No I care about winning as many games as possible, developing the best players and system possible, and building the best team possible. You do those things right and the playoff wins come. The "playoff games" argument is 100% bogus.

I'm kind of with you Dread, but this whole thing reminds me of the analogy of someone who has worked too long in the same place. Like the lumberjack who takes the woodchipper for granted, and one day he comes home with a bloody stump for an arm. Hopefully we won't lose too much of the steam we built on offense these past few seasons, but we are not even close on defense.

The fresh blood on the team has helped so far, and maybe we need an injection from the top as well. I'm going to try to hold out too strong of an opinion until I hear more of the story, but I hope Shanny didn't force Bowlens hand.

I keep having flashbacks to the arguments that Kubiak was the reason for the Broncos success, now I start to wonder myself. Still, I am going to miss Shannahan, but I also miss the house where I grew up. For whatever it means, moving out and making changes was the best thing I ever did in retrospect. I just hope we are not WORSE next year....

Mike
12-30-2008, 10:02 PM
Mike, what I fear is some dud who comes in here with "his" guys and "his" offensive system - thereby screwing the whole deal. I could actually almost live with bates if he'll leave the offense in place and has a ghost of a clue what to do with it.

Getting a brand spanking D coordinator goes without saying. They can blow that whole mess up if they have to.

I hope that Bowlen keeps Bates/Turner (he throw out Denison :D) on offense and then brings in a defensive minded head-coach that will leave the offense alone. I also hope whoever he brings in is told to leave the Goodman's alone. They have had too much success in recent drafts to mess around with.

Dreadnought
12-30-2008, 10:02 PM
Dream thinks I am right.

With that in mind, I admit to being wrong. Dreadnought, I apologize.

Some day Dream will be right again. He was totally right about Ryan Harris, but thats his quota for the year

Requiem / The Dagda
12-30-2008, 10:05 PM
Ryan Clady ring a bell? I was one of three people who defended him on the forums because he was deemed to stupid to play. I was right about a ton of stuff. Usually am. I rule. Da Draft Legend.

Poet
12-30-2008, 10:07 PM
Some day Dream will be right again. He was totally right about Ryan Harris, but thats his quota for the year

I'll take that bet.

In all seriousness, the man knows his football. He's no King87, but then again, only one jerk who takes posts too seriously and misses ribbing can exist.

I just think that at some point you have to make the playoffs. Three years is unacceptable.

I've always felt that Elway and Davis sort of carried your entire team, coaching staff and all. At some point I looked for Shanahan to prove that he is still a beast coach. Holmgreen had Farve. After Farve he turned around the Hawks and took them to a Superbowl. Shanahan has yet to have any really tangible accomplishments after the Superbowl. At some point, you gotta go.

Dreadnought
12-30-2008, 10:07 PM
Ryan Clady ring a bell? I was one of three people who defended him on the forums because he was deemed to stupid to play. I was right about a ton of stuff. Usually am. I rule. Da Draft Legend.

Oh yeah. You were right about Harris the Year before. Clady was your opportunity to be right this year. You are da man when it comes to picking offensive tackles!

Requiem / The Dagda
12-30-2008, 10:09 PM
Draft legend. Mel Kiper is my dad.

Mike
12-30-2008, 10:10 PM
Draft legend. Mel Kiper is my dad.

Your dad is a loser. ;)

Dreadnought
12-30-2008, 10:12 PM
Draft legend. Mel Kiper is my dad.

Mel Kiper is an imbecile with hair almost as impressive as Blagojeviches. You are not an imbecile, and I don't know about your hair. Don't sell yourself short.

Requiem / The Dagda
12-30-2008, 10:16 PM
My hair is getting super long and I look like I just came out of a health food store with a bunch of hippies. I am wearing orange and blue tie-dye as we speak. You would be disappointed. Good thing is, I have to get it cut before I go and lobby this semester. You know, they won't take me seriously if I look like a dirty hippie. Well, probably won't at all -- but haaaaaaaaay. g2g.

Benetto
12-30-2008, 10:17 PM
Mel Kiper had a hair transplant...Tony K and Wilbon called him out on it once on PTI.

horsepig
12-30-2008, 10:22 PM
Gotta say it again-I've always loved Shanny, he's done so much for the city and the franchise but it is time to move on.

Some of Mikey's trends the last several years that have not changed: Usually around #5 in yardage/about #18 or so in points scored (poor red zone O due to lack of playmakers)
very poor special teams, he did sort of cover his butt here with some pretty darn good kickers.
continually declining defensive team.
stale, unimaginative play calling.

In many ways he is like Reeves, e.g., take less-than-average players and win a ton of games, then get blownout in the big ones.

SmilinAssasSin27
12-30-2008, 10:49 PM
- 91-69
- 4 playoff appearances/6 missed playoffs
- 4-5 in playoff determining games
- 3 playoff embarrassments
- 1 playoff win

I like Shanahan, but someone explain to me how we're "really going to miss Shanahan".

You wanna argue won/loss %, I'll argue meaningful game records.

You can have a coach that wins regular season games. I want a coach that wins in the playoffs.

Ask Cleveland, Arizona, Cincinnati, Detroit, New Orleans, Kansas City and Oakland if they'd be happy with those stats. It's all about perspective. We NEVER became the 49ers after their great fall. Nor did we ever get as bad as Buffalo or Dallas. It's hard to maintain after a core run of winning is over. Very few teams can maintain w/o regrouping. Even Pittsburgh needed that 1 terrible year where Ben fell into their laps. There are plenty of fan v=bases who would love to experience what Shanny did in Denver over the past decade. Unfortunately for those w/ unrealistic expectations, fail to get that.

Tned
12-30-2008, 11:15 PM
Ask Cleveland, Arizona, Cincinnati, Detroit, New Orleans, Kansas City and Oakland if they'd be happy with those stats. It's all about perspective. We NEVER became the 49ers after their great fall. Nor did we ever get as bad as Buffalo or Dallas. It's hard to maintain after a core run of winning is over. Very few teams can maintain w/o regrouping. Even Pittsburgh needed that 1 terrible year where Ben fell into their laps. There are plenty of fan v=bases who would love to experience what Shanny did in Denver over the past decade. Unfortunately for those w/ unrealistic expectations, fail to get that.

A reality that some fans don't seem to grasp.

I'm a look forward guy, so I am anxious to see who the next coach is going to be, and feel with the offensive talent, that we should be a good team, if not next year, soon (a lot depends on whether the offense takes a step back, depending on if there is a scheme change), but that doesn't change the fact that I have the perspective to realize that us Broncos fans were MUCH more fortunate than almost any other fans in football over the last 25 years, if not more than EVERY other group of fans.

bengaaaaals1688
12-30-2008, 11:23 PM
Ask Cleveland, Arizona, Cincinnati, Detroit, New Orleans, Kansas City and Oakland if they'd be happy with those stats. It's all about perspective. We NEVER became the 49ers after their great fall. Nor did we ever get as bad as Buffalo or Dallas. It's hard to maintain after a core run of winning is over. Very few teams can maintain w/o regrouping. Even Pittsburgh needed that 1 terrible year where Ben fell into their laps. There are plenty of fan v=bases who would love to experience what Shanny did in Denver over the past decade. Unfortunately for those w/ unrealistic expectations, fail to get that.

As a Cincinnati fan... I wouldn't be happy with those stats.

Northman
12-30-2008, 11:26 PM
Classy thread. Not.. :rolleyes:

Shazam!
12-30-2008, 11:42 PM
ONE Division title, ONE Playoff win since the departure of John Elway. That's the bottom line.

1997-98 was a LONG TIME ago, with a QB who has been retired for 10 years now.

Whoever comes in to replace Shanahan, comes into a team that needs a LOT of work, especially on Defense but the talent is definitely there on Offense. All that Denver needs on O is a Back.

This reminds me a lot of 1994. A mediocre team with some great players sprinkled around. As long as the right choice is made, Denver won't be too far away.

Bowlen wants to WIN. That's why he made the move.

DenBronx
12-30-2008, 11:52 PM
why couldnt we trade shanahan??? seriously, why cant coaches be traded for players, picks???

SmilinAssasSin27
12-31-2008, 12:01 AM
As a Cincinnati fan... I wouldn't be happy with those stats.

All the ones I know would...and have basically stated as such. I'm hoping that you aren't trying to speak for the masses or are trying to pretend Cincy fans have any pride. I've been to quite a few games there and they are the worst fans as far as support goes that I have seen. Far worse than even Detroit.

Requiem / The Dagda
12-31-2008, 12:45 AM
Fans of all teams expect their teams to win the Super Bowl. That is the goal. Please make an argument against the resolved statement that the Broncos have been a mediocre football team under Mike Shanahan for the past five years. I think that is sort of something Silk is getting at. Yeah, shitty teams would kill for a coach like Mike Shanahan -- but it isn't that simple. A lot goes into making good teams bad, a lot more than the head coach. So, the whole "perspective" thing is a little whack when the argument lacks holism in the first place. As I said, ain't that simple.

Tned
12-31-2008, 01:00 AM
why couldnt we trade shanahan??? seriously, why cant coaches be traded for players, picks???

They have been. Gruden and Parcells both were allowed out of their contract in return for compensation, if I remember correctly.

silkamilkamonico
12-31-2008, 01:03 AM
A reality that some fans don't seem to grasp.


What, that were better than 8 of the worst franchises in the NFL, and some could argue sports altogether?

Way to have expectations for a once proud, now foolish organization.

"Hey, we may be average, miss the playoffs more often then we make them, and unable to stay competitive in playoff games, but at least we're better than those 8 organizations..."

There's a reason why fanbases from teams like Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, New England, Baltimore, and now San Diego fans, laugh at any mention of Broncos and playoffs.

"But hey, at least we aren't the Detroit Lions."

Tned
12-31-2008, 01:05 AM
What, that were better than 8 of the worst franchises in the NFL, and some could argue sports altogether?

Way to have expectations for a once proud, now foolish organization.

"Hey, we may be average, miss the playoffs more often then we make them, and unable to stay competitive in playoff games, but at least we're better than those 8 organizations..."

There's a reason why fanbases from teams like Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, New England, Baltimore, and now San Diego fans, laugh at any mention of Broncos and playoffs.

"But hey, at least we aren't the Detroit Lions."

Wnat do you expect, I'm just a closet Charger's fan. Right?

silkamilkamonico
12-31-2008, 01:07 AM
I think that is sort of something Silk is getting at. Yeah, shitty teams would kill for a coach like Mike Shanahan -- but it isn't that simple. A lot goes into making good teams bad, a lot more than the head coach. So, the whole "perspective" thing is a little whack when the argument lacks holism in the first place. As I said, ain't that simple.

Thank you. If I wanted to say "at least were better than Detroit, Arizona, New Orleans, Cleveland, etc etc etc," I'd be a fan of a team like the Minnesota Vikings.

silkamilkamonico
12-31-2008, 01:08 AM
Wnat do you expect, I'm just a closet Charger's fan. Right?

You just might be.

They haven't won a SuperBowl, but at least they aren't Arizona or Detroit.

Then again, they might be making the playoffs more often then not the last couple years, which is something you could care less about. As long as we're better than Detroit and Cleveland, "it's cool".

Tned
12-31-2008, 02:08 AM
You just might be.

They haven't won a SuperBowl, but at least they aren't Arizona or Detroit.

Then again, they might be making the playoffs more often then not the last couple years, which is something you could care less about. As long as we're better than Detroit and Cleveland, "it's cool".

How long have you been a Denver fan? What year did you start following them, and how old were you? Just out of curiosity.

Davii
12-31-2008, 02:11 AM
They haven't won a SuperBowl, but at least they aren't Arizona or Detroit.


How long have you been a Denver fan? What year did you start following them, and how old were you? Just out of curiosity.

Good questions T... Makes you wonder doesn't it?

Poet
12-31-2008, 02:20 AM
All the ones I know would...and have basically stated as such. I'm hoping that you aren't trying to speak for the masses or are trying to pretend Cincy fans have any pride. I've been to quite a few games there and they are the worst fans as far as support goes that I have seen. Far worse than even Detroit.

I know for a fact that Cincinnati fans do have pride. Congrats, you may have showed up to a game where fans were pissed off. Whooopedey do.

The Bengals attendance record throughout such a crappy arse time period proves you wrong. You know why Mike Brown (the owner of the team) keeps getting away with his product? Because he knows that people will keep going to the stadium and buying Bengals gear.

I have never read a more ignorant statement on this site.

Poet
12-31-2008, 02:22 AM
People did not cry very much when Jon Lynch left because he was not good. But, at one point he was DOMINANT as a safety. You guys could have had a shot at resigning him but you didn't because he was not adequate.

Shanahan is like Lynch in the fact that he was once a great coach, now he is not. He is no longer adequate.

Shazam!
12-31-2008, 02:24 AM
This team was once rich in winning NFL tradition, a franchise that others once have strived to mirror. That is gone now and under Shanahan's stagnant leadership, has become accepted by even longtime fans, like Tned. No offense Bro.

Dallas finishing 9-7 was called 'unacceptable.'
The NY Jets fired their Coach after going 9-7.
The Yankees fired their Manager after losing in the Playoffs after many Titles.
So, Shanahan's handpicked squad going .500 over three Seasons is acceptable?

This is the mentality that has come over the team. The Patriots would fire Bill Bellichick with a mediocre showing like that.

Shanahan with Elway, 95-98 (4 Seasons)
54-18, .750 w/Playoffs-3/4, (7-1, 2 Division Titles, 1 Wild Card, 2 Championships)

Shanahan w/o Elway, 99-08 (10 Seasons)
92-73, .557, w/Playoffs-4/10, (1-4, 1 Division Title, 3 Wild Cards, all blowout losses)
24-24 in last 3 Seasons

Once again- I don't expect Denver to be World Champions every season. Hell, I don't even expect that they're a Playoff team every Season. I'd just like to see solid effort, beat the hapless teams they should beat like the Raiders and KC this year, fundamentally sound football and playing hard and with pride. Denver has practically done none of these on defense, which is ALL Shanahan's fault for assembling these knuckleheads.

He overstayed too. He should have resigned years ago. I think heshould have resigned after winning the Super Bowls.

I'd like to see him go to Detroit and see how he makes out doing a Parcells thing. Taking over the most pathetic team in the league and turning them around... Then we can see what Shanahan is REALLY made of as a coach. He has never had to rebuild a trainwreck.

Davii
12-31-2008, 02:26 AM
People did not cry very much when Jon Lynch left because he was not good. But, at one point he was DOMINANT as a safety. You guys could have had a shot at resigning him but you didn't because he was not adequate.

Shanahan is like Lynch in the fact that he was once a great coach, now he is not. He is no longer adequate.

The hell he isn't a great coach still. He had too much on his plate, all of his own doing, but no man can run the entire organization succesfully.

If Shanny were named head coach of the Bungles tomorrow, they would instantly be a better team, and you damn well know it.

And just FYI - there was quite an uproar over John being gone. Not huge, but substantial. There were a LOT of people on here and other boards that had the mindset, "he's nowhere near as good as he once was, but he's a ton better than what will be taking the field without him"

Poet
12-31-2008, 02:31 AM
The hell he isn't a great coach still. He had too much on his plate, all of his own doing, but no man can run the entire organization succesfully.

You had a three game lead and blew it. It's been how many years since the last playoff berth? He has done what since Elway left?

If Shanny were named head coach of the Bungles tomorrow, they would instantly be a better team, and you damn well know it.

Yes, they would be better because Marvin Lewis is an awful head coach. If they hired Norv Turner as a head coach the Bengals would be better. Marvin Lewis is a disgrace to football as a head coach. If that's going to be some of the meat and potatoes of your argument I would really think again. Ask yourself, exactly what has he done recently?
And just FYI - there was quite an uproar over John being gone. Not huge, but substantial. There were a LOT of people on here and other boards that had the mindset, "he's nowhere near as good as he once was, but he's a ton better than what will be taking the field without him"

The uproar you are talking about on this message board was not nearly as much as you are saying. The was more uproar about him stabbing you guys in the back by going out for the money than there was about OMG OUR SAFETY POSITION JUST GOT WORSE. The general consensus was that it would not hurt you very much. Seeing how he got cut from the Patriots, a team that was starving for secondary help of any kind, especially since Harrison was an injury prone safety, it would appear that they were right.

Shazam!
12-31-2008, 02:39 AM
And just FYI - there was quite an uproar over John being gone. Not huge, but substantial. There were a LOT of people on here and other boards that had the mindset, "he's nowhere near as good as he once was, but he's a ton better than what will be taking the field without him"

This was yet another Shanahan blunder. The experience and leadership was SORELY needed on defense and was nowhere to be found throughout the season. Lynch was greatly missed.

Tned
12-31-2008, 03:13 AM
Good questions T... Makes you wonder doesn't it?

I'm curious if he answers. I don't ask to be mean, but most people with an attitude like that, are younger and first started watching the Broncos in the SB years, or after, so they never experienced the ups and downs of the '80s, or the real downs of the early 90's, to realize that the last 10 years haven't been great, but they weren't bad either.

However, if you base of knowledge starts in '97/'98, then the last ten years can seem awful, especially if you don't compare the Broncos last ten years to the typical 10 years following a SB win (GB, SF, Dallas, etc.).

silkamilkamonico
12-31-2008, 03:18 AM
How long have you been a Denver fan? What year did you start following them, and how old were you? Just out of curiosity.

I've been a fan since 1984, when I wrote a report on the state of Colorado and got a John Elway pin sent back to me.

look, this is my deal. I really like Shanahan. I think he's a great offensive mind, and a great coach. I also think he's in a position in over his head in Denver. He isn't ever going to step down from being a GM, and he clearly isn't holding up the end of his deal, case in point the defense.

I just want a consistent juggernaut again. Like what Denver was in the 1990's. A team people didn't like to play. I don't feel Shanahan is making strides for Denver to get there. The defense is a laughing stock in the NFL, and it sucks to think that when people talk about the better teams in the NFl on a year to year basis, they scoff at Denver. And don't kid yourself. They do.

Tned
12-31-2008, 03:41 AM
I've been a fan since 1984, when I wrote a report on the state of Colorado and got a John Elway pin sent back to me.

look, this is my deal. I really like Shanahan. I think he's a great offensive mind, and a great coach. I also think he's in a position in over his head in Denver. He isn't ever going to step down from being a GM, and he clearly isn't holding up the end of his deal, case in point the defense.

I just want a consistent juggernaut again. Like what Denver was in the 1990's. A team people didn't like to play. I don't feel Shanahan is making strides for Denver to get there. The defense is a laughing stock in the NFL, and it sucks to think that when people talk about the better teams in the NFl on a year to year basis, they scoff at Denver. And don't kid yourself. They do.

That's the reason I asked about how long you have been a fan. Your statements are along the lines of those fans that started watching the Broncos in the late '90s.

If you remember, the Broncos weren't a juggernaut in the '90s, they were in '96, '97 and '98 and then they feel hard in '99. The early/mid '90s were pretty lean years prior to Shanahan taking over, even to the point Elway was considering retirement due to disagreements with Reeves and overbearing fans and media.

The '80s were up and down as well, but Elway took teams with no business being in the SB to three of them, and we all know the blowouts that followed. If you have followed the Broncos for 24 years, you should know that the 14 years under Shanny were far better than the 14 years before he took over.

silkamilkamonico
12-31-2008, 03:52 AM
The '80s were up and down as well, but Elway took teams with no business being in the SB to three of them, and we all know the blowouts that followed. If you have followed the Broncos for 24 years, you should know that the 14 years under Shanny were far better than the 14 years before he took over.

So you would rather wallow in mediocrity because the 14 years under SHanny have been better than the 14 years before him?

In Shanahan's era, his best years were his first 4 seasons. He hasn't had any teams remotely close to those 4 years since, with the exception of the one year, which people can argue it as being a "fluke". Even the Saints had 1 run to the Conference title game since.

Actually looking at the entire picture, if you take out the 4 years, the last 10 were not better than before.

Even Brian Billick had a good run of 4 years. The same could be said about Mike Martz.

Tned
12-31-2008, 03:56 AM
So you would rather wallow in mediocrity because the 14 years under SHanny have been better than the 14 years before him?

In Shanahan's era, his best years were his first 4 seasons. He hasn't had any teams remotely close to those 4 years since, with the exception of the one year, which people can argue it as being a "fluke". Even the Saints had 1 run to the Conference title game since.

Actually looking at the entire picture, if you take out the 4 years, the last 10 were not better than before.

Even Brian Billick had a good run of 4 years. The same could be said about Mike Martz.

I don't want to wallow in anything. My point is that how many coaches in the NFL last longer than 3-4 years. How many of them actually lead their team to playoff wins.

The grass isn't always greener on the other side... Be careful what you wish for... Choose your saying...

silkamilkamonico
12-31-2008, 04:00 AM
I don't want to wallow in anything. My point is that how many coaches in the NFL last longer than 3-4 years. How many of them actually lead their team to playoff wins.

Consider Denver hasn't seen playoff win(s) for 10 years, I am perfectly content on taking a chance elsewhere.


The grass isn't always greener on the other side... Be careful what you wish for... Choose your saying...

The grass hasn't been green in Denver for 10 years. It's turned burnt brown with one little patch of faded green.

Denver as an organization is no better than a team like the Bengals, and something that happened 10 years ago doesn't have any affect whatsoever in a "what have you done for me lately" leage.

Tned
12-31-2008, 04:05 AM
Consider Denver hasn't seen playoff win(s) for 10 years, I am perfectly content on taking a chance elsewhere.



The grass hasn't been green in Denver for 10 years. It's turned burnt brown with one little patch of faded green.

Denver as an organization is no better than a team like the Bengals, and something that happened 10 years ago doesn't have any affect whatsoever in a "what have you done for me lately" leage.

Denver was in the AFCCG three years ago, so while they haven't seen win(s) plural, they were one game away from the SB 3 years ago. Were the Bengals?

As to the rest, as I said in the other thread, it is a difference of opinion, so it will be impossible to compare to a single 'right' position, so therefore I suggest we agree to disagree.

silkamilkamonico
12-31-2008, 04:09 AM
Denver was in the AFCCG three years ago, so while they haven't seen win(s) plural, they were one game away from the SB 3 years ago. Were the Bengals?


How about the Saints then? Their great QB, and explosive offense was one game away too, and haven't been to the playoffs since, because their management, like Shanahan, either can't figure out the defense, or refuses to take it seriously.

Just a flash in the pan one season wonder team. It's happened with a plethora of teams that haven't done anything since.

Tned
12-31-2008, 04:23 AM
How about the Saints then? Their great QB, and explosive offense was one game away too, and haven't been to the playoffs since, because their management, like Shanahan, either can't figure out the defense, or refuses to take it seriously.

Just a flash in the pan one season wonder team. It's happened with a plethora of teams that haven't done anything since.

The Saints that have had two 3 win seasons, and three head coaches over the last 10 years and a record far below the Broncos.

I guess that is one fundamental difference between you and I. While I want the Broncos to get to the playoffs, and ultimately to the SB (even though statistically, that happens VERY rarely, every decade or so, or something like that), I enjoy watching the Broncos put competitive teams on the field every year.

I don't want to see 3 win seasons, and watch the Broncos lose 13 games. I watch every down of every game, and would rather see 8 wins, then 2 wins and get the first pick in the draft. I look forward to every Broncos game, and while the Playoffs are something I really want to see, in terms of my enjoyment the four months of the regular season, it is the regular season wins and losses that are important.

So, while you might consider the Saints and Broncos the same, I don't. I received much more enjoyment from the last decade of watching the Broncos, then my friend who is a Saints fan and has watched their roller coaster of 3 win season, 10 win seasons, 3 win seasons, etc. The Saints are a sub .500 team over the last 10 years, the Broncos are not. Big difference.

silkamilkamonico
12-31-2008, 04:33 AM
If there's an attempt to fix the defense, I'll take 3 steps back for 5 steps forwards.

What did me in was Shanahan stating Slowick would be back.

Shanahan's biggest mistake IMO was firing a proven guy like Bates last year, who's notorious for building top 10 defenses, for an unproven in house SHanahan guy like Slowick, who's given us the second worst defense in the NFL statistically since 1995, and then, rehiring him back basically.

He should have just let Bates build his defense, but he wanted a patchwork defense that would get him through the now. And now, who knows what the he!! is going to happen to the defense.

Davii
12-31-2008, 04:40 AM
The uproar you are talking about on this message board was not nearly as much as you are saying. The was more uproar about him stabbing you guys in the back by going out for the money than there was about OMG OUR SAFETY POSITION JUST GOT WORSE. The general consensus was that it would not hurt you very much. Seeing how he got cut from the Patriots, a team that was starving for secondary help of any kind, especially since Harrison was an injury prone safety, it would appear that they were right.

I'm not disagreeing with you on your points King.

All i'm saying is Shanahan's problem was he got himself in over his head with taking on too many responsibilities that he then refused to relinquish.

Given the opportunity to do nothing but be a head coach Shanahan could improve ANY organization in the NFL. As a head coach Shanahan is second to none. As Head coach and de facto president, GM, owner, ruling king...

Well, that's why he got himself fired.

First rule of leadership = Surround yourself with good people.

Davii
12-31-2008, 04:43 AM
If there's an attempt to fix the defense, I'll take 3 steps back for 5 steps forwards.

What did me in was Shanahan stating Slowick would be back.

Shanahan's biggest mistake IMO was firing a proven guy like Bates last year, who's notorious for building top 10 defenses, for an unproven in house SHanahan guy like Slowick, who's given us the second worst defense in the NFL statistically since 1995, and then, rehiring him back basically.

He should have just let Bates build his defense, but he wanted a patchwork defense that would get him through the now. And now, who knows what the he!! is going to happen to the defense.

Good point. I wouldn't mind seeing our offensive coaching staff stay intact, a good defensive minded HC come in, build his defensive coaching staff, and giving them free reign for 2-3 years over the D.

I'm calling it now, Champ is gone. I love him, but he's too valuable in terms of what we can gain to rebuild this D

BroncoTech
12-31-2008, 05:51 AM
I don't think that guy coaching our team this year was Mike Shannahan. This guy looked tired, and you can tell he wasn't having fun. Those bags under his eyes made him look more like Gollum, searching for his precious than Shanny chasing some finger bling. Give the man the credit he deserves. He's given us fans the best gift ever, twice. But like all winning thoroughbreds their time for the pasture comes. I hope he takes a year off, gets paid and then decides.

This young team put those bags under Shanny's eyes and us fans only piled on more expectation baggage than any bellhop could muster. The HC job is a grind, Pat knows Mike needs some time off, I'm down with that.

Poet
12-31-2008, 07:28 AM
I'm not disagreeing with you on your points King.

All i'm saying is Shanahan's problem was he got himself in over his head with taking on too many responsibilities that he then refused to relinquish.

Given the opportunity to do nothing but be a head coach Shanahan could improve ANY organization in the NFL. As a head coach Shanahan is second to none. As Head coach and de facto president, GM, owner, ruling king...

Well, that's why he got himself fired.

First rule of leadership = Surround yourself with good people.

Then why is it that you are arguing that he should stay your head coach? Was he a great head coach? Sure, I guess. I suppose I will always think that Elway and Davis had far more to do with it than him, but enough fans (around the league and in Denver) think otherwise so for the purpose of this discussion let's go with he was great.

He was great. Was. Whatever changed or caused it to change is irrelevant. Once you get GM powers you never give them back. That is now is part of who Shanahan the head coach is. Is he a hall of fame coach? Sure. by all criteria I think he is. Is he coaching like a hall of fame coach? Right now, he is closer to being Mangini than Bill Bilicheck. That's the truth, that's the reality, and that's why he was let go.

If the assumption is that it was Slowik that caused the firing, then that's another failure of him as the head coach now, not him as a head coach then. A head coach with the power to choose coordinators should be held accountable. Not letting go of an awful coordinator is not letting go of an awful coordinator.

People make to big of a deal why things happen when it comes to coaches. You're a head coach, you get too much blame and credit. The end result is all that matters. If you're not being held accountable, then why on earth should that coach be able to hold players or staff accountable?

If you could go back in time and someone get old Shanahan back, sure, he's probably a straight beast. However, that is impossible, and things could never be the same. If Shanahan gave back his old powers there would obvious tension and hard feelings. Everyone one this board knows how proud of a man he is (and rightfully so), and everyone on this board knows that the only way he would give up his GM powers or whatever the hell it is he has would be if he was to.

SmilinAssasSin27
12-31-2008, 07:36 AM
I know for a fact that Cincinnati fans do have pride. Congrats, you may have showed up to a game where fans were pissed off. Whooopedey do.

The Bengals attendance record throughout such a crappy arse time period proves you wrong. You know why Mike Brown (the owner of the team) keeps getting away with his product? Because he knows that people will keep going to the stadium and buying Bengals gear.

I have never read a more ignorant statement on this site.

U can't be serious. You host Steeler home games once a year...or at least it seems like it. All the games I've been to, a LOT of tix have been bought the opposing fans. I got 50 yard line seats to the Monday nigher a few years back for $75 bucks...and you guys were decent then. How is that good fandom? Before ya call me ignorant, please remember, I live 30 seconds from Ohio and know PLENTY of Bengals fans, and have been to more than the 1 game you seem to think...I know what Bengals fans are like. Sure, ya prolly take offense, but you're not fooling anyone.

Poet
12-31-2008, 07:51 AM
U can't be serious. You host Steeler home games once a year...or at least it seems like it. All the games I've been to, a LOT of tix have been bought the opposing fans. I got 50 yard line seats to the Monday nigher a few years back for $75 bucks...and you guys were decent then. How is that good fandom? Before ya call me ignorant, please remember, I live 30 seconds from Ohio and know PLENTY of Bengals fans, and have been to more than the 1 game you seem to think...I know what Bengals fans are like. Sure, ya prolly take offense, but you're not fooling anyone.

No, surely you must be the one typing this garbage out as a joke right? First off, the Steelers have one of the largest fanbases in the league. You dominate a decade like that, and a bunch of "fans" pop up who oddly enough have no ties to the area. Funny how that happens.

Which Monday night game was it? You got the tickets from the Bengals organization, or a fan? The Bengals have always had a low ticket price compared to other franchise. http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/12/24/bengals-wont-raise-ticket-prices/ If those are the prices now, I wouldn't doubt that you could get a sick seat like that for pretty cheap. Hell, I pray to god you weren't stupid enough to use that as an argument if you got the ticket from a fan. :rolleyes:


And before you attempt to act like you're in the know, I'm from Ohio, I go to Ohio a lot, oddly enough that happens frequently when the majority of your family is from that area. I defy you or anyone else to honestly think that if your team was as awful as the Bengals were after 1990 that the Broncos would sell out as well as they do.

Watch a Steeler game, when they are getting beaten by more than 14 going into halftime like any other team you see a lot of fans leave. Most fans aren't guys like me or maybe, maybe you, who eat, sleep, breathe, dream, and love their team's football franchise.

You have no clue what Bengal fans are like, and it's obvious to anyone who isn't a damn moron. You don't know crap, you're ignorant on the subject, and you probably should do yourself a favor and shut it. I doubt you will, but really I'm helping you out here. :lol::lol:

broncofaninfla
12-31-2008, 11:25 AM
Hard for me to say Shanahan wasn't a GM when he won two Super Bowls while performing at that role. Recent issues point towards a decline in his performance in the role but I have full confidence in Shanahan and am confident he will be very succesfull with another orginization.

bengaaaaals1688
12-31-2008, 12:17 PM
All the ones I know would...and have basically stated as such. I'm hoping that you aren't trying to speak for the masses or are trying to pretend Cincy fans have any pride. I've been to quite a few games there and they are the worst fans as far as support goes that I have seen. Far worse than even Detroit.

Any intelligent Cincinnati fan, would hate those stats, which is why any intelligent Cincinnati fan hates Marvin Lewis. Only the Cincinnati homers who think the Bengals do no wrong, or the idiots who think the Bengals never have a chance of doing right, would like those stats.

BTW... This isn't the smack forum so I'm not actually gonna go into your ridiculous statement about our fan pride, but YOU try watching a team wallow in futility for 15 years, and tell me who your favorite team is.

bengaaaaals1688
12-31-2008, 12:27 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you on your points King.

All i'm saying is Shanahan's problem was he got himself in over his head with taking on too many responsibilities that he then refused to relinquish.

Given the opportunity to do nothing but be a head coach Shanahan could improve ANY organization in the NFL. As a head coach Shanahan is second to none. As Head coach and de facto president, GM, owner, ruling king...

Well, that's why he got himself fired.

First rule of leadership = Surround yourself with good people.

Gotta disagree with you on improving ANY organization. He wouldn't improve the Steelers, wouldn't improve the Colts, wouldn't improve the Patriots, wouldn't improve the Giants, or any of the teams that have had a set system for years and have proven it works. He could improve the lower organizations, an Arizona, a Cincinnati, a Detroit, a Cleveland, but that's partly because a monkey could improve most of those organizations.

Broncolingus
12-31-2008, 01:13 PM
I have no problem with this thread and think it's a very good - and relevant - topic of discussion...

Shanny's a great coach - period. He's given the city/state, and Bronco fans everywhere much to be thankful for (SuperBowl wins, no 1-15 seasons, etc.). His place in Bronco history should be there right along side of Elway, Davis, Smith, etc.

That said, the past 10 years have been mired in mediocrity. If everyone agrees that Shanahan is a great coach - and I think we all do - then we must all agree that he is NOT a great GM and (mostly) his decisions with the player/personnel have not translated into Superbowls or even playoff wins.

I think most of us - regardless of the 'public' comments - feel that Bowl-in probably would have been happy keeping Shanny as a coach with a Pioli-type coming in and running the player/personnel stuff to get the Bronco's back on track.

I think most of us also feel that Shanny said "ain't happenin" so the only course left for Bowl-in (and the Broncos) was to move on without Shanny.

I, personally, don't believe this was only about Slow-lick and him staying or going.

Bottom line, I wish Mike had left under better (less abrasive) circumstances, but it's the right move for both parties...

Oh, and I don't expect a Superbowl in the next 1-3 years either...while I hope I'm wrong, Denver's defense likely needs to be utterly and completely rebuilt staring with the DL, then LBs, then DBs (particularly the Safety's).

Tned
12-31-2008, 02:36 PM
If there's an attempt to fix the defense, I'll take 3 steps back for 5 steps forwards.

What did me in was Shanahan stating Slowick would be back.

Shanahan's biggest mistake IMO was firing a proven guy like Bates last year, who's notorious for building top 10 defenses, for an unproven in house SHanahan guy like Slowick, who's given us the second worst defense in the NFL statistically since 1995, and then, rehiring him back basically.



Am I missing something? Why do some of you guys keep referring to Slowick as an in house guy or Shanny croney and such?

Am I forgetting a previous Slowick stint in Denver? I thought '05 was his first year here after being with Chicago, Cleveland, Green Bay and maybe some other places.

SmilinAssasSin27
12-31-2008, 04:47 PM
No, surely you must be the one typing this garbage out as a joke right? First off, the Steelers have one of the largest fanbases in the league. You dominate a decade like that, and a bunch of "fans" pop up who oddly enough have no ties to the area. Funny how that happens.

Which Monday night game was it? You got the tickets from the Bengals organization, or a fan? The Bengals have always had a low ticket price compared to other franchise. http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/12/24/bengals-wont-raise-ticket-prices/ If those are the prices now, I wouldn't doubt that you could get a sick seat like that for pretty cheap. Hell, I pray to god you weren't stupid enough to use that as an argument if you got the ticket from a fan. :rolleyes:


And before you attempt to act like you're in the know, I'm from Ohio, I go to Ohio a lot, oddly enough that happens frequently when the majority of your family is from that area. I defy you or anyone else to honestly think that if your team was as awful as the Bengals were after 1990 that the Broncos would sell out as well as they do.

Watch a Steeler game, when they are getting beaten by more than 14 going into halftime like any other team you see a lot of fans leave. Most fans aren't guys like me or maybe, maybe you, who eat, sleep, breathe, dream, and love their team's football franchise.

You have no clue what Bengal fans are like, and it's obvious to anyone who isn't a damn moron. You don't know crap, you're ignorant on the subject, and you probably should do yourself a favor and shut it. I doubt you will, but really I'm helping you out here. :lol::lol:

How can someone type so much and say absolutely nothing? My knock isn't on you or the other Bengals fans on this board, cuz you all seem to actually give a shit. And your original response mentioned angry fans. I never did. The thing, TO ME, that makes Cincy fans suck is their lack of anger. I think I've been to @ 8 games there. I've partied at Xavier on Hallowwen weekends a few times. I've stayed overnight in Cincy on game weekends (some for Cincy and some returning from Knoxville), and I know a lot of Bengal fans. The overwhelming consensus I get from them is...indifference and cynicism (sp?). They seem to be there for the sake of being there. Compared to all the other stadiums I've been to, they hardly cheer. They are QUICK to berate the team, but not out of anger, but more of a "here we go again" behavior. They are quick to curl into a ball of quiet when things do go bad and even during good seasons, the conversations about the team are sooooooo negative. And as far as sellouts go, I've never been to a stadium where the away team gets such an audience. NOT just Pittsburgh, but seriously...the Pitt games I've been to there are at least 35% black and gold. That is just awful, regardless of how strong their support is. So feel free to TRY and bash me and call me ignorant because I offended your team's fans. I would hope for nothing less to be honest. But it doesn't change anything. I respect YOU as a fan, but not your collective group.

SmilinAssasSin27
12-31-2008, 04:53 PM
Any intelligent Cincinnati fan, would hate those stats, which is why any intelligent Cincinnati fan hates Marvin Lewis. Only the Cincinnati homers who think the Bengals do no wrong, or the idiots who think the Bengals never have a chance of doing right, would like those stats.

BTW... This isn't the smack forum so I'm not actually gonna go into your ridiculous statement about our fan pride, but YOU try watching a team wallow in futility for 15 years, and tell me who your favorite team is.

Without taking the time to connect the dots...yer kinda helping my point. And there is a difference among being committed, being intelligent and being proud.

A lot of fans of organizations who haven't experienced success would actually be relieved to see their coach put up what Shanny has done. NO fans went apeshit just to get to the NFCCG and now they've missed the playoffs twice again. They LOVE their coach. How is that different from what Shanny did? You, yourself mention Lewis. if I am SOOOOOO wrong, why would there be people so happy with him? It's because he has breathed even the slightest bit of life into what was an awful team. Have you guys even got past round 1? Shanny got to the AFCCG. Cincy fans would be lining up to wipe the ass for anyone who got em that far. Again, ya made my point for me.

nj10
12-31-2008, 05:26 PM
Top 5 mistakes in Broncos history:

5. Vertical striped socks
4. The half a loaf game
3. Hiring Wade Phillips
2. Hiring Bob Slowik
1. Firing Mike Shanahan

Poet
12-31-2008, 05:36 PM
Without taking the time to connect the dots...yer kinda helping my point. And there is a difference among being committed, being intelligent and being proud.

A lot of fans of organizations who haven't experienced success would actually be relieved to see their coach put up what Shanny has done. NO fans went apeshit just to get to the NFCCG and now they've missed the playoffs twice again. They LOVE their coach. How is that different from what Shanny did? You, yourself mention Lewis. if I am SOOOOOO wrong, why would there be people so happy with him? It's because he has breathed even the slightest bit of life into what was an awful team. Have you guys even got past round 1? Shanny got to the AFCCG. Cincy fans would be lining up to wipe the ass for anyone who got em that far. Again, ya made my point for me.

A lot of Bengal fans are tired of what he is talking about and agree with him.

Some Cincinnati fans would be stoked. A lot would not. You make the mistake of thinking that because our franchise blows that we would be happy with those results. It would be great if Marvin Lewis coached Cincy to two SB titles. However, if at at the end of that run we ended up doing what the Broncs have done, I would want him fired.

Tned
12-31-2008, 05:53 PM
Top 5 mistakes in Broncos history:

5. Vertical striped socks
4. The half a loaf game
3. Hiring Wade Phillips
2. Hiring Bob Slowik
1. Firing Mike Shanahan

Drafting Tommy Maddox?

SmilinAssasSin27
12-31-2008, 06:03 PM
A lot of Bengal fans are tired of what he is talking about and agree with him.

Some Cincinnati fans would be stoked. A lot would not. You make the mistake of thinking that because our franchise blows that we would be happy with those results. It would be great if Marvin Lewis coached Cincy to two SB titles. However, if at at the end of that run we ended up doing what the Broncs have done, I would want him fired.

In your opinion, do you think the fanbase as a whole would want him fired?

Poet
12-31-2008, 06:44 PM
In your opinion, do you think the fanbase as a whole would want him fired?

It's split. A lot of fans think that he deserves one more shot because this year was supposed to be his last shot, Palmer went down, etc etc etc.

A lot of fans think he should go. I will tell you this, he was a LB coach in Pittsburgh, a DC in Baltimore, and it took until NOW for the Bengals to have a decent defense.

Is there some differing opinions on whether he should go or not? Sure, but the argument "we sucked before him and we have loyalty towards him" is not nearly as prevalent as you are hinting at.

SmilinAssasSin27
12-31-2008, 06:46 PM
It is interesting how coaches w/ expertise often seem to be most successful on the other side of the ball when they become head coaches...ie Brian Billick and Lewis.

Poet
12-31-2008, 06:54 PM
It is interesting how coaches w/ expertise often seem to be most successful on the other side of the ball when they become head coaches...ie Brian Billick and Lewis.

I think the trend is that a team is strong on one side and then gets a coach for the weak side. The coach usually fails, which is why I scoff at the term "guru" when it is applied to a coach. Oddly enough, the strength of the team is the side with the talent, who would have thought.

Shazam!
12-31-2008, 06:58 PM
Am I missing something? Why do some of you guys keep referring to Slowick as an in house guy or Shanny croney and such?

Am I forgetting a previous Slowick stint in Denver? I thought '05 was his first year here after being with Chicago, Cleveland, Green Bay and maybe some other places.

I think they worked together at UFlorida.

topscribe
01-01-2009, 02:31 AM
From the RMN:

And finally . . . I close with just a thought for many who offered
reminders this week that Shanahan never won a Super Bowl without
John Elway.


My response to that is he had a lot of company in that thought.


And as some folks know I have banged on this drum many times....
Super Bowl wins for Chuck Noll without Terry Bradshaw: 0.
Super Bowl wins for Vince Lombardi without Bart Starr: 0.
Super Bowl wins for George Seifert without Steve Young: 0.
Super Bowl wins for Bill Walsh without Joe Montana: 0.
Super Bowl wins for Jimmy Johnson without Troy Aikman: 0.
Super Bowl wins for Tom Landry without Roger Staubach: 0.
Championships for Paul Brown without Otto Graham: 0.


Plenty of spectacular, Hall of Fame coaches, have not climbed the league's
highest peak without a remember-when quarterback to help them.


So it makes for a memorable statistic, but not sure it is a true measure of
whether or not somebody is past their prime in the coaching game.


Even Bill Parcells, who many people consider one of the best team builders
in the game right now, is still looking - with his fourth different team - to
re-capture what he had with the Giants 19 years ago. Nineteen years.


The Cowboys have no playoff wins - none - in 12 years. They have
changed head coaches four times so change isn't always the answer
either.


Pat Bowlen has taken a risk by firing one of just 12 coaches who have won
at least two Super Bowls and the winningest coach in franchise history.
Because it could be said Bowlen has never won a Super Bowl without Mike
Shanahan.


http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/broncos/archives/2008/12/broncos_inbox_d_4.html


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Shazam!
01-01-2009, 02:43 AM
Then I'll reverse that theory Top and play devil's advocate. While I agree on some points, then that can mean that Mike Shanahan will never be able to duplicate the success he had with John Elway. So, then Denver will never achieve greatness.

After the NYG Parcells has turned around some of the worst teams in the League and gave them instant credibility too. The Jets, Pats and Miami were all laughing stocks when he took over, and he delievered an AFC Championship to NE in 3 seasons, and turned Miami and the Jets into Playoff contenders in one season. That says a lot. Dallas was different, with JJ breathing down his neck.

I have said why I believe this was a good move many times in other threads. The Broncos are bigger than Mike Shanahan. They'll be back, and I believe Bowlen will do whatever it takes to bring this team back into contenders. They're closer than we think. With even a middling defense, Denver could've been a Playoff team this weekend.

Happy New Year everyone, and to the 2009 Denver Broncos.

silkamilkamonico
01-01-2009, 02:56 AM
Am I missing something? Why do some of you guys keep referring to Slowick as an in house guy or Shanny croney and such?

Am I forgetting a previous Slowick stint in Denver? I thought '05 was his first year here after being with Chicago, Cleveland, Green Bay and maybe some other places.

He was the DB's coach for a year while Bates was the coordinator. = "In house guy". Not to mention his son is the special teams coach.

You don't bring a proven guy like Bates in to completely change the defense let him clean house to find his players, and then strip him of his title 12 games or whatever it was. That decision was questionable but fine. The capper was replacing him with an unproven guy like Slowik (Bates cleaned his mess up in GB btw), field the second worst defense in the NFL since 1995, and then extend him another year. That's just seemingly backwards. I know you need cohesion, but let it play itself out.

No wonder why our defense is in complete shambles.

silkamilkamonico
01-01-2009, 02:57 AM
Top 5 mistakes in Broncos history:

5. Vertical striped socks
4. The half a loaf game
3. Hiring Wade Phillips
2. Hiring Bob Slowik
1. Firing Mike Shanahan

Hiring bob slowick wasn't that bad of a mistake. Extending him after he fielded the second worst team in the NFL since 1995 was, IMHO.

Tned
01-01-2009, 03:47 AM
He was the DB's coach for a year while Bates was the coordinator. = "In house guy". Not to mention his son is the special teams coach.


That's weak, and now just shows the other statements were rhetoric. By your definition, anyone that is hired by the Broncos automatically becomes an "in house guy".

Slowik has been coaching in this league for something like 17 years. he coached at Chicago, Cleveland and Greenbay for something like 14 years before ever coming to Denver, having never worked with Shanny from what I know.

He was the Bears Defensive coordinator for six years from 93 to 98 (after spending a year as a Dallas assistant), then went on to have short stints as DC at Cleveland and Green Bay (3 years as DB's coach, and one year as DC).

Then, after 14 years as DB coaches and a DC in multiple cities, did he come to Denver first as a DB's coach, and then DC.

To call him an in house guy is ludicrous. That's like referring to Champ Bailey as a player the Broncos drafted.

When you have someone like Dennison that has been here a decade or so and moved up through the ranks, you can start referring to him as a "in house guy", but when you have a guy that spend 14 years coaching in college, before spending 14 years coaching in Dallas, Chicago, Cleveland and Greenbay, before spending only 3 years in Denver, it is ridiculous to call him an "in house guy".

Now, if you wanted to make some kind of case that Shanahan is keeping him for some other reason than his skill, your ONLY valid shot (as opposed to incorrectly calling him an "in house guy") would have been to point to the fact that 28 years ago when Shanahan was the OC for the Florida Gators, Slowick was also on the Gators' staff. It's a weak argument, but then you can make the "he's a friend" argument, which might hold some water.

Obviously the counter to the "he's a friend, because they worked togethr 28 years ago" would have been, he canned his college roommate, good friend and former Broncos WR coach, Mike Heimerdinger, after heimerdinger had two horrible seasons running the Broncos offense.

Just my thoughts on "in house guys"...

topscribe
01-01-2009, 12:29 PM
Then I'll reverse that theory Top and play devil's advocate. While I agree on some points, then that can mean that Mike Shanahan will never be able to duplicate the success he had with John Elway. So, then Denver will never achieve greatness.


That is entirely silly. What the article showed is that none of those greats
achieved the Ultimate Championship without a stellar quarterback, or a least
one who was playing stellar at the time.

It does say that, yes, Shanny will probably not win a Super Bowl without a
very good QB, as the others have not. But what if Jerry Jones now sees
Shanny running around loose and dumps Phillips for him? All the sudden, Shanny
has Romo. :nod:

Meanwhile, Bowlen brings in a great HC, and this coach leads the team to the
Super Bowl. Whose QB did this new coach use to get there? Shanny's, perhaps?
Shanny has not been able to get there since Elway retired . . . that has been
pointed out ad nauseum. But now, he once again had the QB who could do it.
But all the sudden, he is thrown under the bus before he even has the chance
to complete the process he started.

Shanny's drafts the last three years have been unbelievably successful and
have resulted in what may become the top offense in the league. This year,
I am under the impression the draft was going to focus on defensive players.
With Goodman's help, the draft was building a juggernaut here.

With Shanny, we knew what he had. Who out there is a better coach than he?
Bowlen admitted it would be tough finding another on Shanny's level. Cowher
is not likely, and Parcells and Jimmy Johnson are getting old, I guess. There
might be a diamond among the OCs or DCs out there, but taking a good
coordinator and hoping he will be a good coach is a risky proposition, ala Norvy
and Wade Phillips.

Bowlen admitted he might end up regretting his decision. I project that there
is a good chance of that . . .

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bengaaaaals1688
01-01-2009, 01:59 PM
Without taking the time to connect the dots...yer kinda helping my point. And there is a difference among being committed, being intelligent and being proud.

A lot of fans of organizations who haven't experienced success would actually be relieved to see their coach put up what Shanny has done. NO fans went apeshit just to get to the NFCCG and now they've missed the playoffs twice again. They LOVE their coach. How is that different from what Shanny did? You, yourself mention Lewis. if I am SOOOOOO wrong, why would there be people so happy with him? It's because he has breathed even the slightest bit of life into what was an awful team. Have you guys even got past round 1? Shanny got to the AFCCG. Cincy fans would be lining up to wipe the ass for anyone who got em that far. Again, ya made my point for me.

In all honesty, it's the intelligence I was referring to as far as those who would go batshit for it. Most of the Bengal fans worth their salt, want Lewis gone because they don't wanna settle for mediocrity. I'll grant that there are many intelligent fans that have become "indifferent" as you said before, but that's because they are tired of the way this team has been run for the past 18 years.

I was ecstatic when we won the division in '05, but I haven't let it cloud my judgement on the team, and on Lewis as a coach. Some people are good at certain things, more than others. Lewis isn't a good HC, although he is pretty good at talent evaluation and at running a defense. I wouldn't want Shanny, of the past 10 years, because it is still too mediocre... I want to be in the playoffs consistently, with a legitimate chance at a SB just as consistently... The Shanny in the beginning, I'd take in a heartbeat, but this one I wouldn't want, for the same reason I don't want Lewis.

TXBRONC
01-01-2009, 09:25 PM
That's weak, and now just shows the other statements were rhetoric. By your definition, anyone that is hired by the Broncos automatically becomes an "in house guy".

Slowik has been coaching in this league for something like 17 years. he coached at Chicago, Cleveland and Greenbay for something like 14 years before ever coming to Denver, having never worked with Shanny from what I know.

He was the Bears Defensive coordinator for six years from 93 to 98 (after spending a year as a Dallas assistant), then went on to have short stints as DC at Cleveland and Green Bay (3 years as DB's coach, and one year as DC).

Then, after 14 years as DB coaches and a DC in multiple cities, did he come to Denver first as a DB's coach, and then DC.

To call him an in house guy is ludicrous. That's like referring to Champ Bailey as a player the Broncos drafted.

When you have someone like Dennison that has been here a decade or so and moved up through the ranks, you can start referring to him as a "in house guy", but when you have a guy that spend 14 years coaching in college, before spending 14 years coaching in Dallas, Chicago, Cleveland and Greenbay, before spending only 3 years in Denver, it is ridiculous to call him an "in house guy".

Now, if you wanted to make some kind of case that Shanahan is keeping him for some other reason than his skill, your ONLY valid shot (as opposed to incorrectly calling him an "in house guy") would have been to point to the fact that 28 years ago when Shanahan was the OC for the Florida Gators, Slowick was also on the Gators' staff. It's a weak argument, but then you can make the "he's a friend" argument, which might hold some water.

Obviously the counter to the "he's a friend, because they worked togethr 28 years ago" would have been, he canned his college roommate, good friend and former Broncos WR coach, Mike Heimerdinger, after heimerdinger had two horrible seasons running the Broncos offense.

Just my thoughts on "in house guys"...

I know I'm a little late to this party nevertheless, I do agree it's a weak argument to say that Slowik was an "in house" guy. How does anyone come up with an argument like that when the guy came to Denver at relatively the same time as Bates?

Shazam!
01-01-2009, 11:33 PM
I believe Slowik worked with Shanahan at U of F once upon a time, that's why he's one of Shanahan's guys.