How do you feel about a spread offense?

[Bullgator]

Now there has been a lot of speculation on whether a form of the spread run by Timmy wouldn't work in the NFL.

What I want to know is why? To those who say it wont work, I'm all ears. Not being a dick, I would just like to know the reasoning.

Please don't give me some cop out like "Its not college dood" or "This aint madden... this is the NFL or Cuz this is a passing league!"

please shut the **** up with that bullshit, it would be better for you to say IDK than to try and puke up a generic answer when clearly none of that explains why. instead calmly explain why. Schematically, hashmark wise, NFL rules.. what is it, I would really like to know.

Keep in mind the most successful offenses already run a form of the spread.

And more importantly Tim SUCKED until they put him back there in the shotgun and spread it out. Then he was as money as you can get.

Why can't McCoy call up Urb and Dan Mullen and help build something for Tim to be successful? Is that crazy? A lil consulting if you will.

Its got to be better than run, run, 3rd and long pocket pass...

keep in mind our O-line is not very good, coupled with Tebow who is effectively a rookie AND one that has never played in a pro style offense, equals way too many obstacles to be successful. On the bright side he didn't fumble the exchanges at least.

That kind of learning curve is too much to overcome to expect instant wins.

AT LEAST you break the kid in over time... you start off 95% spread and taper it down over the course of the year.

If it was me I wouldn't force Tim to play like something he will never be.. you might as well put Orton back in.

Instead I would LISTEN to the kid and tailor something that he has already shown that he can do... and do well as we saw the last 3 min of that game.

Not talking shit but I think this should at least be open for discussion.

[I Eat Staples]

Spread offenses rarely work in the NFL unless you have Brady or Rodgers. We had a spread offense with McDaniels and it did us little good.

Also, it absolutely kills the running game.

[dogfish]

since pretty much everyone hates mccoy, i was actually just thinking about what offensive scheme i'd like to see us adopt for tebow (assuming that tebow is even our QB next year, which is obviously a subject for other threads). . .

a lot of it is going to be dictated by tim himself. . . can he succeed in a run-heavy, mostly two-wide O like fox prefers? it certainly doesn't seem designed to cater to what he's comfortable with. . .

i don't watch the gators and can't comment on urban meyer's scheme-- i don't know shit about it. . . i do think it's obvious that tim's most comfortable in the shotgun-- and while IMO he more or less HAS to be able to operate effectively from under center at some point, i wouldn't force a square peg into a round hole. . . plenty of NFL teams use the gun a lot, no reason we can't also-- we'll need some different personnel, though. . . a better pass protecting ORT that can kick franklin inside, and a sproles type (i'm guessing harvin filled this role at FLA) of back who's effective on inside draws. . .

ultimately, they'll probably have to tailor a scheme to tim if they want to maximize his ability. . . my preference would be to steal one of mike mccarthy's assistants to come here and install the multi-WR, ZBS west coast they run in green bay. . . i honestly think the old kubiak WCO playbook that we ran with jake plummer would be the best initial fit for tim when he is operating under center-- you can play to his strengths by calling a similar offense to the one we ran with plummer, using a lot of waggles, roll-outs and moving pockets to get tim on the edge with a lot of one-read plays where he can take off and try to make something happen if it's not there. . . take pressure off our tackles, simplify the reads so he can just play, and get him on the move when he's not in the gun. . .

i'd try to start him with that, using a heavy dose of zone running and early down play-action, and using the gun in most obvious passing situations-- you don't have to go 3- and 4-wide all the time if you don't want, you can still use a TE in the gun. . . as he improves his ability to read defenses and go through progressions, you can open the playbook with all those multi-WR sets and really start throwing it around. . . assuming of course that tebow's accuracy improves enough to allow that. . .

if fox insists on an EP variant, we need more of the sean payton version, and less of the mike mccoy version. . .

[BroncoStud]

I'd be perfectly happy bringing back the ZB-bootleg offense that Shanahan favored. This monstrosity of an offense that McCoy runs is just awful to watch.

[Bullgator]

Spread offenses rarely work in the NFL unless you have Brady or Rodgers. We had a spread offense with McDaniels and it did us little good.

Also, it absolutely kills the running game.

I know its heavily reliant on the personnel. You would not run the same spread in NE as you would with Tim.. you would need to incorporate alot of elements that his skillset could take advantage of.

Make no mistake the last few minutes of that game the offense went four wide out of the shotgun and Timmy threw it well out of it.

here is a nice article that supports my claim that it was the OFFENSE they changed up rather than the D going prevent. ASLO there is a link in the article that you can hear D. Thomas say that it was the playcalling that changed and caused the success... if he was smarter he would not have stepped on McCoy like that.. but I dont think he meant any disrespect.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AlUpwHl2icZs5x2xOP5EZ4RDubYF?slug=jc-cole_winners_losers_tim_tebow_dolphins_102311

[Lancane]

Depends Bull, are you talking the Erhardt-Perkins, Martz Spread, Air-Erhardt, Weiss Spread, Meyer Option Spread?

I don't have a problem with a spread offense in general, if the coordinator actually can run the damn thing. But the spread hasn't done that well in Denver, and has proven to be a struggle for other teams like Arizona, St. Louis and Kansas City, so keeping it as the backbone offensive system could be questionable. Almost all offensive coordinators anymore use bits and pieces of the different spread variations in their offenses, even Bates under Shanahan used some spread variations in his offense.

With that said, I don't see Urban Meyer's Option Spread being successful, so I would try to keep away from it as much as possible.

If it was me, I think I would go with Pistol Offense as the backbone system, utilizing the more traditional three wide, single tight end or two wide, two tight end sets. Adding in elements of the Veer, Flexbone, Single Set Back, Wish Bone, Split Back, Shotgun and I formations, with some Smashmouth, Air-Coryell, and a small part of the Erhardt-Perkins added in.

[Lancane]

I'd be perfectly happy bringing back the ZB-bootleg offense that Shanahan favored. This monstrosity of an offense that McCoy runs is just awful to watch.

More of a West Coast, Ohio River type offense?

[dogfish]

cane, you forgot the ohio river offense. . . .


:heh:


edit: damn it! :laugh:

[Bullgator]

since pretty much everyone hates mccoy, i was actually just thinking about what offensive scheme i'd like to see us adopt for tebow (assuming that tebow is even our QB next year, which is obviously a subject for other threads). . .

a lot of it is going to be dictated by tim himself. . . can he succeed in a run-heavy, mostly two-wide O like fox prefers? it certainly doesn't seem designed to cater to what he's comfortable with. . .

i don't watch the gators and can't comment on urban meyer's scheme-- i don't know shit about it. . . i do think it's obvious that tim's most comfortable in the shotgun-- and while IMO he more or less HAS to be able to operate effectively from under center at some point, i wouldn't force a square peg into a round hole. . . plenty of NFL teams use the gun a lot, no reason we can't also-- we'll need some different personnel, though. . . a better pass protecting ORT that can kick franklin inside, and a sproles type (i'm guessing harvin filled this role at FLA) of back who's effective on inside draws. . .

ultimately, they'll probably have to tailor a scheme to tim if they want to maximize his ability. . . my preference would be to steal one of mike mccarthy's assistants to come here and install the multi-WR, ZBS west coast they run in green bay. . . i honestly think the old kubiak WCO playbook that we ran with jake plummer would be the best initial fit for tim when he is operating under center-- you can play to his strengths by calling a similar offense to the one we ran with plummer, using a lot of waggles, roll-outs and moving pockets to get tim on the edge with a lot of one-read plays where he can take off and try to make something happen if it's not there. . . take pressure off our tackles, simplify the reads so he can just play, and get him on the move when he's not in the gun. . .

i'd try to start him with that, using a heavy dose of zone running and early down play-action, and using the gun in most obvious passing situations-- you don't have to go 3- and 4-wide all the time if you don't want, you can still use a TE in the gun. . . as he improves his ability to read defenses and go through progressions, you can open the playbook with all those multi-WR sets and really start throwing it around. . . assuming of course that tebow's accuracy improves enough to allow that. . .

if fox insists on an EP variant, we need more of the sean payton version, and less of the mike mccoy version. . .

That was a good post with some nice solutions possibly. Bottom line is if Fox doesn't play ball and tries to force Tim into that round hole it will spell disaster for them both.

Tim will never be Manning, Brees or Brady or even close. But I think with plays designed around him and his style of play he could be as effective. The bottom line is winning and he has a knack for that.

[Bullgator]

Depends Bull, are you talking the Erhardt-Perkins, Martz Spread, Air-Erhardt, Weiss Spread, Meyer Option Spread?

I don't have a problem with a spread offense in general, if the coordinator actually can run the damn thing. But the spread hasn't done that well in Denver, and has proven to be a struggle for other teams like Arizona, St. Louis and Kansas City, so keeping it as the backbone offensive system could be questionable. Almost all offensive coordinators anymore use bits and pieces of the different spread variations in their offenses, even Bates under Shanahan used some spread variations in his offense.

With that said, I don't see Urban Meyer's Option Spread being successful, so I would try to keep away from it as much as possible.

If it was me, I think I would go with Pistol Offense as the backbone system, utilizing the more traditional three wide, single tight end or two wide, two tight end sets. Adding in elements of the Veer, Flexbone, Single Set Back, Wish Bone, Split Back, Shotgun and I formations, with some Smashmouth, Air-Coryell, and a small part of the Erhardt-Perkins added in.

Well a hybrid of the Meyer option spread, but you have to realize that Dan Mullen was the OC at UF and mixed in his own version of a 4 and 5 wide passing spread that TT played really well in. In 2008 it was more spread passing than run option. Its not like it was in Utah. The two played off each other and attacked different parts of the feild... The passing spread attacked the perimeter and deep vert while the spread option read ran offtackle, perimeter and pounded the gut and it was like the D was on its heals playing monkey in the middle.

If nothing else it would be a great start because hey TT has 4 years of playing really well in that system. It was designed for Tim and no one else could run it. Because you had to be able to do both run with power and pass.

All the ones you mentioned(im only familiar with a few of them) could be great schematically but they are not tailored to our current QB.

[Lancane]

Well a hybrid of the Meyer option spread, but you have to realize that Dan Mullen was the OC at UF and mixed in his own version of a 4 and 5 wide passing spread that TT played really well in. In 2008 it was more spread passing than run option. Its not like it was in Utah. The two played off each other and attacked different parts of the feild... The passing spread attacked the perimeter and deep vert while the spread option read ran offtackle, perimeter and pounded the gut and it was like the D was on its heals playing monkey in the middle.

If nothing else it would be a great start because hey TT has 4 years of playing really well in that system. It was designed for Tim and no one else could run it. Because you had to be able to do both run with power and pass.

All the ones you mentioned(im only familiar with a few of them) could be great schematically but they are not tailored to our current QB.

Pittsburgh with Roethlisberger utilizes a Pistol variant offense with parts of the Erhardt-Perkins and Smashmouth, so I would say that it could work with Tebow if he is half the quarterback that Floridians make him out to be!
;)

As to the Urban Meyer Option Spread or even the variant under Mullen, I guess we should call it the M&M Option Spread (Hehehe) could be used in moderation, but not as the backbone offensive scheme, I don't see how it would survive against the quicker and more fierce defenses of the NFL. And because it's utilizes so many receiver types, like most spread offenses, you have a higher chance of hindering the growth of your quarterback, he'll struggle and be dependent on a flawed system not designed to succeed at the pro level... And do you really believe McCoy is smart enough to develop his own offensive system? I sure in the hell don't.

[Bullgator]

Pittsburgh with Roethlisberger utilizes a Pistol variant offense with parts of the Erhardt-Perkins and Smashmouth, so I would say that it could work with Tebow if he is half the quarterback that Floridians make him out to be!
;)

As to the Urban Meyer Option Spread or even the variant under Mullen, I guess we should call it the M&M Option Spread (Hehehe) could be used in moderation, but not as the backbone offensive scheme, I don't see how it would survive against the quicker and more fierce defenses of the NFL. And because it's utilizes so many receiver types, like most spread offenses, you have a higher chance of hindering the growth of your quarterback, he'll struggle and be dependent on a flawed system not designed to succeed at the pro level... And do you really believe McCoy is smart enough to develop his own offensive system? I sure in the hell don't.

TT must evolve. No arguing there. But for now can we cut him some slack and let him play in what he is comfortable in? and let him evolve over time? they just want to pimp slap him into pro QB.

IMO until you start 16 games you are a rookie.. and so lets put him in the best spot to be successful... kind of like when you let a new QB throw a screen to get his confidence up with a completion.

let him play this year in the gun and spread em out like he did when he was ultra successful.

and then you can tailor a NEW spread offense around him instead of copying some ones elses genius

[Lancane]

TT must evolve. No arguing there. But for now can we cut him some slack and let him play in what he is comfortable in? and let him evolve over time? they just want to pimp slap him into pro QB.

At least you agree that he needs to improve, I'm tired of those other Tebowites or Broncomaniacs who think he's fine as is...it's getting sickening!

Hey, if pimp slapping is all it took, I'd go to his house right now and slap him silly...he'd call me lord by the time I was done! But sadly, it doesn't work that way, at least not for quarterbacks, for linebackers and safeties a good slap or even yelling at them in front of the whole team does the job. Or you can get that coach that's all nice like Coach Saban who acts like you did well, then in private screams at you like a acid dripping banshee in heat and you just want to run and hide in your locker!

And I don't think you should ever cater to a quarterback Bull, if they grow dependent on it, then they'll struggle when something different comes along. He's not a child, we shouldn't treat him as one, and I don't think he'd appreciate being favored so, he's the type to want to learn and struggle then succeed, but McCoy and Fox are doing him no favors.


IMO until you start 16 games you are a rookie.. and so lets put him in the best spot to be successful... kind of like when you let a new QB throw a screen to get his confidence up with a completion.

let him play this year in the gun and spread em out like he did when he was ultra successful.

and then you can tailor a NEW spread offense around him instead of copying some ones elses genius

If I was McCoy, I'd be trying to create a whole new playbook now, keep the plays that work, dump the rest...re-add the more successful Air-Erhardt plays that they had under McDaniels and even add some Air-Coryell to the damn thing. It's his ass on the line, not Fox's, Elway's or Xander's!

[Bullgator]

Well one thing is for sure... they go to mile high with the same game plan this week and Detroit will stomp us.

I don't see the line playing any better against that Lion front four. TT should not be under center at all next week. Should be shifting the pocket more and hopefully taking advantage of their speed with draw plays and screens. which by the way we only tried one of today.

If he is under center at all it better be a hand off or some bootleg action.

[Bullgator]

Im off to bed Goodnight... cant wait to see 1st and 10 tomorrow Skips head will explode.

[dogfish]

that's right, the option spread. . . nope, definitely wouldn't try to run that in the pros (i mean the read option runs, not meyer's passing concepts)-- there's a good reason it's never been successful at this level. . . the speed and recognition skills of pro linebackers and safeties is simply too great-- you try to run that shit more than a couple times a game, you're basically asking to get your QB's head ripped off. . . we all know tim's a tough dude, but it's still not smart to put him in harm's way more than necessary-- his style lends itself to taking enough hits as it is. . .

as i said previously, i vastly prefer getting him on the edge with naked PA boots where the misdirection hopefully slows the 'backers down a bit-- preferably with the option to look for julius thomas running down the seam or to the corner before he takes off. . . that's been a much, much more effective approach than the option at the pro level, and IMO suits tims' strengths just fine. . .

i do agree in principle that you have to get him in the gun more, but i don't think there's much point expecting fox to completely abandon his entire philosophy and start lining up in the gun on first down all the time. . . he's a running coach at heart, and quite frankly a strong run game is a young QB's best friend anyway. . . that's why i like using the PA rollouts for early down passing-- i think it's a way to make him a little more comfortable passing from under center, while still offering the chance to use your power running game (it was working well today)-- and it gives you the opportunity for some basic deception when you pass out of a two-TE set on first, and then run the shotgun draw on second, or whatever. . . fox is never going to run a full college-style spread, and rightfully so-- that doesn't mean that he and mccoy can't get creative and play more to tim's strengths. . . meet somewhere in the middle-- use the gun more, and earlier in the game, and try to get him out of the pocket when you're not. . .

[JaxBroncoGirl]

I agree with everything posted. I also agree that Tim needs a lot of work with the right coaches but we do not have the right coaches. My prediction, is Denver will cut ties in 2 years and someone that notices Tim will pick him up and he spreads his wings in 3-4 years. I did not realize just how bad Tebow was until yesterday. The coaches are not a good fit. I do now realize what McDaniels saw in him, just McDaniels well sucks at running anything.

[BroncoNut]

If that offense comes in the form of Jaxgatorgirl, I'm all for it

[Cugel]

I'd be perfectly happy bringing back the ZB-bootleg offense that Shanahan favored. This monstrosity of an offense that McCoy runs is just awful to watch.

It's been horrible to watch with Orton & Tebow. It might not be horrible with a decent QB.

But, the biggest reason NFL teams WON'T run a spread offense as their base package is that they pay their QBs $10+ million per season!

You just don't want the QB running some option while Ray Lewis or Clay Matthews or Brian Urlacher lines up a kill shot on the guy.

Running QBs are going to take unnecessary hits. And don't give me any bull about "Tim knows how to slide" it doesn't matter. The more runs, the more hits. Hits sooner or later translate into injuries.

Michael Vick is a much more elusive and faster runner than Tebow, but he's been often injured. Donovan McNabb, same thing. Running QBs get hurt. Period. And an offense where Tebow takes off and runs will quickly get him racked up.

And then your $10 million is sitting in the training room.

Most idiot fans just refuse to see this. They keep saying ridiculous things like "Let Tebow be Tebow."

It doesn't even matter if he wins or not. The Broncos are NOT going to a spread offense as their base package. Not ever. And no other NFL team is going to either. :coffee:

If they paid him $2 million like a RB then they could use him like one, and have a backup when (inevitably) he got hurt. But, that isn't the NFL system. And it never will be.

[vandammage13]

The spread has proven to work in the NFL...

It just depends on what variation of the spread you are talking about.

Lions, Pats, Packers have all either now or in the past run a variation of the spread with success. More of a spread passing system though.

I think a run-option read spread like Meyer's offense could work on a limited basis in the NFL with the right personnel, but not as your primary offense.

I think the reason for this is that the Defensive Lines in the NFL are able to get better penetration on slow developing, horizontal plays than they are in College.

There is a place for that type of offense in the NFL. I think that it can be a good supplement to your base offense as a change of pace, but I don't think it can be relied upon for your primary offense.

You have to have a coach creative or ballsy enough to try it, but I don't think Fox or McCoy fit that criteria.

[HammeredOut]

Well, in the league, we have Miami, Indy, Seattle, Cleveland, and then us. Spread Offense or not, it may be the only option to find our niche' as an offense. Tebow does not play well behind center, and his 5 and 7 step drop is still miles behind. If he could have developed that better in the offseason.

Now I think the Broncos coach's may be forced to run an offense that allows Tebow to get atleast 10-20 times a game. In 32 of 39 games in College, Tim Tebow ran the ball 10 times or more, and rarely ran less then 15 times a game in a spread offense. So if the Broncos can do the same, maybe we get the best of Tim Tebow. If we don't run the offense tailored to Tim Tebow like a spread offense, we will not be getting the best of Tim Tebow.

[Cugel]

Now I think the Broncos coach's may be forced to run an offense that allows Tebow to get atleast 10-20 times a game. In 32 of 39 games in College, Tim Tebow ran the ball 10 times or more, and rarely ran less then 15 times a game in a spread offense. So if the Broncos can do the same, maybe we get the best of Tim Tebow. If we don't run the offense tailored to Tim Tebow like a spread offense, we will not be getting the best of Tim Tebow.

If you run Tebow "10-20 times a game" there's ZERO chance he would last the season. ZERO. :coffee:

It flat doesn't matter if he could win in that formation, you don't pay your QB close to $8 million (in this case) to get him creamed. They hope to develop Tebow into a starting QB for the future.

To do that they have to protect him in the pocket. The NFL rules are for protecting the QB in the pocket. The rules handicap the defense and allow WRs to run all over the field without being hand-checked. That means that a POCKET PASSING QB is FAVORED BY THE RULES!

And that's what all NFL teams want. They want Tom Brady, or Drew Brees, or Peyton Manning, or Aaron Rogers standing back there surveying the field and throwing strikes to the open WR.

If Tebow can't learn to do that then all the "fan excitement" in the world isn't going to save his job. I don't care what his record is, he has to show MASSIVE improvement in standing in the pocket and passing the ball or they'll draft a QB in 2012 and ship him out! :coffee:

[Bullgator]

If you run Tebow "10-20 times a game" there's ZERO chance he would last the season. ZERO. :coffee:

It flat doesn't matter if he could win in that formation, you don't pay your QB close to $8 million (in this case) to get him creamed. They hope to develop Tebow into a starting QB for the future.

To do that they have to protect him in the pocket. The NFL rules are for protecting the QB in the pocket. The rules handicap the defense and allow WRs to run all over the field without being hand-checked. That means that a POCKET PASSING QB is FAVORED BY THE RULES!

And that's what all NFL teams want. They want Tom Brady, or Drew Brees, or Peyton Manning, or Aaron Rogers standing back there surveying the field and throwing strikes to the open WR.

If Tebow can't learn to do that then all the "fan excitement" in the world isn't going to save his job. I don't care what his record is, he has to show MASSIVE improvement in standing in the pocket and passing the ball or they'll draft a QB in 2012 and ship him out! :coffee:

You are delusional.

You are not his mama. I would rather chance and injury than watch him suck behind center.. HE IS NOT GOING TO PLAY WELL BEHIND CENTER PERIOD.

STart Adam Weber if you want an under center QB. If you want Tebow then you HAVE TO LET HIM BE TEBOW.

DAMN the money damn the chance of injury and before you get all ray lweis on me ask carlos dansby about that killshot.

[vandammage13]

You are delusional.

You are not his mama. I would rather chance and injury than watch him suck behind center.. HE IS NOT GOING TO PLAY WELL BEHIND CENTER PERIOD.

STart Adam Weber if you want an under center QB. If you want Tebow then you HAVE TO LET HIM BE TEBOW.

DAMN the money damn the chance of injury and before you get all ray lweis on me ask carlos dansby about that killshot.

Haha...Dansby got humiliated on that play.

[HammeredOut]

You are delusional.

You are not his mama. I would rather chance and injury than watch him suck behind center.. HE IS NOT GOING TO PLAY WELL BEHIND CENTER PERIOD.

STart Adam Weber if you want an under center QB. If you want Tebow then you HAVE TO LET HIM BE TEBOW.

DAMN the money damn the chance of injury and before you get all ray lweis on me ask carlos dansby about that killshot.

The spread gets Tebow 1 on 1 with a linebacker, most times, Tebow wins that battle.

The spread allows Tebow 1 on 1 with the safety if the LB is blitzing. Tebow kills that battle.

The spread allows Tebow no less then a 4 yard running play if a safety and a LB are spying on T.T. That includes a LB hit, and a 2 yard drag pushing the pile until the safety cleans it up. This is the old College T.T that I remember, that made him a success.

Running the ball 10 times plus a game is the identity of T.T and why he was such a success at the college level. Sure this type of QB is not your prototypical, but the successful T.T is the player who runs first, and option passes 2nd. Half of Tebow's games in College, Tim would run more then Pass. So, i'm not sure how fans can say, protect T.T and leave him in the pocket.

Its the Tim Tebow that draws the extra Safety into the box (the 8th guy), and that allows Tebow to open up the big pass down field on a one on one. Its not pretty, but thats pretty much sums it up on how Tim was so successful at college. He would draw the safety down low, and dump it off on a bubble screen because tacklers didn't equal enough blockers on that side of the field.

Im all for running the wheels off of T.T. Thats what he is.

[cuzz4169]

Tebow ran the spread option in college not the same as just a spread offense.

[nflfan]

Exactly, Florida was a spread-to-run offense. That didn't mean you needed the QB to do the running; it was just about spreading the defense for the RB to run. No one ever confused Chris Leak as a rushing QB. Having a QB who does run well is a definite bonus.

I don't like Fox as a head coach, because though he's solid at defense, he has a blind spot at offense that makes his offenses unexplossive and overly safe; he's a lot like old style coaches who are resistant to change, like Cowher, Herm, etc. A good head coach will maximize the strengths of his team, period.

I say the OC should design an offense in which Tebow will have the most chance for success with, then very slowly add and make him feel comfortable with plays that an NFL QB must be able to execute. The Broncos are highly invested in Tebow in more ways than one, so it's to their best interest to see that he succeed.

Vick and the Falcons had a lot of success with their zone blocking, even with Vick's eratic passing. Much later on, Andy Reid taught Vick how to be an NFL QB, and Vick now can both pass and run effectively.

Make no mistake, Andy Reid adapted the Eagles offense for Vick. If they had a decent OL, they'd be pretty tough. If the Broncos play to their weakness instead of their strengths, just to fit the system that Fox wants, they'll be doing the exact same thing they did under McDaniels.

[Lancane]

Exactly, Florida was a spread-to-run offense. That didn't mean you needed the QB to do the running; it was just about spreading the defense for the RB to run. No one ever confused Chris Leak as a rushing QB. Having a QB who does run well is a definite bonus.

Florida's offense was a spread option, which is a very flawed spread offense to begin with. Utilizing a tailback and slot receiver, like more traditional offenses along with a highly mobile quarterback, it's a run first spread and forces the tailbacks, receivers, tight ends, and at times even quarterbacks to block and wholly depends on misdirection to be successful. Some elements of the spread option are already seen in pro-spread offenses, the Erhardt-Perkins, Weiss Spread, Air-Erhardt, Martz Spread and even the Pistol Offense all utilize tailbacks, slot receivers and tight ends, not only in the passing game but likewise in the run game. But, the spread option would struggle in it's more mundane collegiate form at the pro level, just like the wild cat offense has.

As to the Chris Leak comment, most people don't recognize Chris Leak at all, he's a crap quarterback who was considered highly mobile.


I don't like Fox as a head coach, because though he's solid at defense, he has a blind spot at offense that makes his offenses unexplossive and overly safe; he's a lot like old style coaches who are resistant to change, like Cowher, Herm, etc. A good head coach will maximize the strengths of his team, period.

There are things about Coach Fox I do like, such as he's player orientated and has a defensive mindset, but I do have to agree that he's blind when it comes to the offensive side of the ball. His philosophy is conservative, too conservative to be successful in my honest opinion. The only way I see Coach Fox finding success is if he's hands off regarding the offense, allowing Elway and Xanders to hire someone with full offensive control, someone like Greg Knapp, Randy Fichtner, Joe Lombardi, Terry Robiskie or David Culley.


I say the OC should design an offense in which Tebow will have the most chance for success with, then very slowly add and make him feel comfortable with plays that an NFL QB must be able to execute. The Broncos are highly invested in Tebow in more ways than one, so it's to their best interest to see that he succeed.

That's pretty much Bullgator's take on the situation and point of the thread, but again I must stress that there is a high probability that in the process that Tebow's growth as a quarterback will be stunted and his career effected. Most notably the issues is that the option spread is not only flawed but utterly useless in the NFL, it would be like Denver running a wild horse offense as the base offensive system. Unfortunately the biggest flaw is that Tebow fans believe the offense should be built around a specific player who hasn't earned that, Denver is not as invested in Tebow as some believe and to cater around a specific athlete, not only when he hasn't earned it, but when you realize it's most likely to fail...could be a career killer. Denver didn't cater to Elway either, so why should they cater to Tebow?


Vick and the Falcons had a lot of success with their zone blocking, even with Vick's eratic passing. Much later on, Andy Reid taught Vick how to be an NFL QB, and Vick now can both pass and run effectively.

The Falcons had minimal success (two winning seasons in six years), and the reason the zone blocking scheme worked was because just like it helped running backs, it helped Michael Vick as though he was a tailback not a quarterback, his numbers were pathetic in Atlanta, and now that they got Matt Ryan, you'll not find a 'Dirty Bird' fan who gives a damn about Vick.


Make no mistake, Andy Reid adapted the Eagles offense for Vick. If they had a decent OL, they'd be pretty tough. If the Broncos play to their weakness instead of their strengths, just to fit the system that Fox wants, they'll be doing the exact same thing they did under McDaniels.

Andy Reid didn't adapt the offense for Vick, where did you get that crap? Neither Mornhinweg nor Reid would abandon the west coast offense, they forced Vick to conform to be a more pro-style quarterback. They did implement certain elements of other offenses such as the pistol into their overall offense, but the core of that playbook remains west coast. Michael Vick sat behind McNabb along with Kolb, were forced to learn the playbook and play as Mornhinweg saw fit, Philadelphia did not cater to Vick, even Michael Vick has stated that.

McDaniels biggest mistake wasn't the lack conforming or adapting his offense, it was that he wanted to be the cornerstone of the Broncos, he wanted to implement his playbook without struggle and be the face of the franchise over anyone else; whereas Cutler was the face of the franchise and not yet use to the playbook. Had McDaniels shut up and coached, he and Cutler would both still have been here and we'd have been in the playoffs probably last season as well as going to the playoffs this year.

[nflfan]

Lancane, I agree with a lot of your points, but I have a differing view on the matter.

Regarding the Falcons offense while Vick was there, they were #1 in rushing his last 3 seasons there, #4 in 2002, and the other 2 years they were #14 and #16. So in effect, they were in the top 5 in rushing 4 of his 6 seasons there.

In 2 years starting for the Eagles, they were #5 and currently #1 in rushing ... a huge jump up from 2009 and 2008, both years they were #22. That isn't just coincidence.

The Eagles are at their best when they're spreading out the defense and making their skills players go one on one. Their current weakness in their OL in pass protection, but having Vick lessens the impact of that.

Teams that know how to utilize special qualities of their QBs can taylor the offense to be really good at something.

Andy Reid did adapt the offense to Vick .... the difference between the Eagles offense run under Kolb and Vick are night and day. That's because defenses have to adjust to the things Vick can do, and most other QBs in the NFL can't.

We're also seeing it in Cam where he's getting a ridiculous amount of rushing TDs.

Tebow rushing for a TD makes it look easy, when it really isn't for most QBs. That forces defenses to have to go away from what they normally do, and thus there come opportunities for the offense.

The Wildcat is a gimmick; QBs who know how to run is an innate ability that can be used any time in the game, against any defense, just like the abilities of some QBs to throw on the run. Those aren't gimmicks.

I'm not, nor have I ever been a fan of the rushing QB; never liked Vick, Vince Young ... not a big fan of Tebow's QB'ing style either. I think there are limitations to how far that can get the team.

Still, you have to tailor your team to the strengths of your players, and wasting some of Tebow's natural playing abilities would be stupid for any coach to do. Either maximize your players, or get rid of them and get the ones you want.

I am not opposed to a spread type offense, nor a traditional pro-style offense. My point is, either give your players the best chance to succeed, or get rid of them. Forcing them to play to their weaknesses is sabotaging them and the team.

[Bullgator]

Tebow will simply never be a pocket passer. As his staunchest supporter, you should realize that when even I say that he had no shot at being an accurate pure pocket passer then there really is no shot.

You either create an offense to cater to his unique skill set or you ship him off to someone who can.

Lacane, you are unfortunately missing the point. I really dont care about your "dont coddle the QB" philosophy in this case. Tim SIMPLY CANT execute that style of offense at a high level. Period. Not now not EVER.

But he can win championships IMO if you build a custom made offense around him in the shotgun.

[I Eat Staples]

HE IS NOT GOING TO PLAY WELL BEHIND CENTER PERIOD.


Tebow will simply never be a pocket passer.

Agreed, which is why he'll never be a good NFL QB.

[getlynched47]

If the Patriots can get away with running the spread offense 40% of the time, I see no problem with the Broncos doing it if that's what makes Tebow comfortable and effective throwing the ball.

[Bullgator]

Agreed, which is why he'll never be a good NFL QB.

Only if you ran the world staples. Luckily for us every time they buckled and put Tim in the spread he threw like a champ and played like a world beater. Soon Fox will give in and force McCoy to just let him play in the spread.

[Bullgator]

If the Patriots can get away with running the spread offense 40% of the time, I see no problem with the Broncos doing it if that's what makes Tebow comfortable and effective throwing the ball.

They run the spread a hell of a lot more than that. So does Brees.

[Lancane]

They run the spread a hell of a lot more than that. So does Brees.

There are a lot more then that (but the shotgun is not a spread formation) even though spread offenses do utilize it.

What's the two most successful pro-spread offensive systems currently used in the NFL and which teams use them?

[Davii]

There are a lot more then that (but the shotgun is not a spread formation) even though spread offenses do utilize it.

What's the two most successful pro-spread offensive systems currently used in the NFL and which teams use them?

I'm betting both also have accurate qb's that can pass from the pocket.

Look, I'm a Bronco homer. TT is a Bronco. Therefore I'm a TT homer. But you have to realize he MUST become a better pocket passer and he MUST fix his accuracy issues. A good front four that can collapse the edge is going to give Tim problems until he becomes comfortable working in a pocket.

I agree that the current play calling isn't doing anyone any favors but converting to an entirely spread offense won't either.

I, for one, think Tim will mature and improve where he must, but to completely tailor an offense to his current strengths would slow his development and ultimately hurt the team.

[Lancane]

I'm betting both also have accurate qb's that can pass from the pocket.

Look, I'm a Bronco homer. TT is a Bronco. Therefore I'm a TT homer. But you have to realize he MUST become a better pocket passer and he MUST fix his accuracy issues. A good front four that can collapse the edge is going to give Tim problems until he becomes comfortable working in a pocket.

I agree that the current play calling isn't doing anyone any favors but converting to an entirely spread offense won't either.

I, for one, think Tim will mature and improve where he must, but to completely tailor an offense to his current strengths would slow his development and ultimately hurt the team.

Exactly...

Current quarterbacks playing in offensive systems that use a pro-spread base offense or in offenses that utilize variable parts of a pro-spread systems in their offensive scheme are Eli Manning, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, Matthew Stafford, Jay Cutler, Matt Ryan, Sam Bradford, Matt Cassel and Kevin Kolb...all of them have pocket passing capabilities and are considered for the most part, franchise capable quarterbacks.

[tomjonesrocks]

At this point, having lost out on the Luck sweepstakes, they might as well try to tailor an offense to Tebow and see if he can be an effective NFL QB when you build an offense to suit his strengths. Am not sure I'd have preferred it this way, but here we are.

Unfortunately, we have the wrong HC for such thinking...

It's going to suck if this experiment goes Doug Flutie and the Broncos have to give up on Tebow 2-3 years down the line. In that case it would have been better to have won out on Luck and build the team conventionally.

[Buff]

Urban Meyer for Offensive Coordinator... Someone start the thread. Make him the highest paid OC in the game and he'd accept less power to work with TT everyday.

[slim]

Urban Meyer for Offensive Coordinator... Someone start the thread. Make him the highest paid OC in the game and he'd accept less power to work with TT everyday.

I saw Urban coaching up Tebow a little before the game.

Maybe this isn't such a good idea.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Whatever the reason, football fans Florida Gators spread offense will see some similariries in the Tebow-led Broncos’ offense today. The Broncos will use their share of spread formations today against the Miami Dolphins, which often involves four receivers and no backs other than Tebow.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2011/10/23/for-florida-gator-day-broncos-may-use-some-gator-offense/10272/

Some on here keep posting that the Broncos had two weeks to put in a game plan which will suit TT. YES, the coaches had two weeks - however, they are NOT the ones executing the plays. ALL of the offensive players had how many days to prepare for a different style of play - I don't know for sure if the players got the Monday off, after the bye week, but if they did - they had Tues, Wed, Thurs to prepare, as the team left on Friday - that is 3 days for different plays, to adapt to a left handed QB, vs a right handed QB, etc.

[TXBRONC]

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2011/10/23/for-florida-gator-day-broncos-may-use-some-gator-offense/10272/

Some on here keep posting that the Broncos had two weeks to put in a game plan which will suit TT. YES, the coaches had two weeks - however, they are NOT the ones executing the plays. ALL of the offensive players had how many days to prepare for a different style of play - I don't know for sure if the players got the Monday off, after the bye week, but if they did - they had Tues, Wed, Thurs to prepare, as the team left on Friday - that is 3 days for different plays, to adapt to a left handed QB, vs a right handed QB, etc.

I don't think they ran a lot spread formations but I don't care. Tebow's job is to execute the offense he's in irregardless.

[I Eat Staples]

Only if you ran the world staples. Luckily for us every time they buckled and put Tim in the spread he threw like a champ and played like a world beater. Soon Fox will give in and force McCoy to just let him play in the spread.

I quoted you saying Tebow would never be a pocket passer. You realize that even spread QBs pass from the pocket? New Orleans, Detroit, Green Bay and New England all run spreads but have elite pocket passers. Yes, Aaron Rodgers is athletic and mobile but he can destroy you from the pocket.

[Bullgator]

I quoted you saying Tebow would never be a pocket passer. You realize that even spread QBs pass from the pocket? New Orleans, Detroit, Green Bay and New England all run spreads but have elite pocket passers. Yes, Aaron Rodgers is athletic and mobile but he can destroy you from the pocket.

mince words... you know damn well what is meant by pocket passer...

TT is not built to move backwards. hes better suited starting the play downhill in the shotgun... 3-5-7 step drops are wasted movement. TT will never the passer Aaron rodgers is... if he was he would never lose a game.

[Dreadnought]

I'll say this as someone in TT's corner, who likes much about his potential, his character, his competitiveness, and his work ethic. I even think Mo is wrong in comparing Vick with Tebow, in that the only advantage Vick really has over Tebow is footspeed. I think a lot of the criticism directed at him is flat out silly.

You personally have a better chance of having afternoon tea with God than of ever seeing a College spread option offense adopted in the NFL. It. Will. Never. Happen.

I think TT can adapt his game to pro football, because he'll put in the hours, is smart enough, and has the native athletic skills. I think an offense featuring TT should be using roll out and shotguns a good portion of the time. I even think its good for him to run, say, 2-4 times a game. What I am sure of, though, is that he simply must learn to operate from the pocket at least a portion of the or he will be another McDaniels bust.

Waiting for the "next generation" of transformational running QB's is like that awful and ridiculous Becket play "Waiting for Godot," where nothing happens throughout the play and the joke is that Godot will never arrive. Mobility is certainly a valuable asset, but mobility fades as time goes by, and even guys like Young, Elway, Moon, and Tarkenton eventually learn to be pocket QB's first and running QB's when forced. As for the rest...Kordell Stewart? Vince Young? Bobby Douglass? The names change but the storyline never does. They either become passers or they become flops.

I happen to think TT can do this too - but that Urban Myers spread option nonsense is strictly a High School and College thing.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Let's just say that the Broncos change their offense to suit TT - BUT, there are 10 other players on offense. How many of these guys will need to totally abandon the way they learned to play their position - either in HS, college, or the pros - especially the OL players. I am sure that blocking for a pocket passer is totally different than blocking for a scrambling QB. PLEASE - TT is NOT the only player to be considered here.

[Bullgator]

Let's just say that the Broncos change their offense to suit TT - BUT, there are 10 other players on offense. How many of these guys will need to totally abandon the way they learned to play their position - either in HS, college, or the pros - especially the OL players. I am sure that blocking for a pocket passer is totally different than blocking for a scrambling QB. PLEASE - TT is NOT the only player to be considered here.

To a wide receiver a route is a route is a route... As a RB it makes NO difference. He will still get carries

TEs still need to block and catch... in fact no one has to do shit different really except the line as far as run blocking goes... shotgun pass protection sucks right now anyways...

By TT entering the game you ALREADY have that changup for the line they ALREADY have to hold their blocks longer... changing the O or not TT wont ever stop scrambling.

Mangini, Dilfer, Billick and about 10 radio host have now changed their tune and NOW say that the only way TT will be successful is if the staff builds a speard O around TT. I agree with them.

Bite the bullet and do something to change the direction of your franchise...

There MAY have been an argument for Luck(he has still yet to play a down in the NFL) but now that he is a pipe dream its not like we have anything good going for us that we cant change things up... we have nothing to lose, and everything to gain!

[Davii]

To a wide receiver a route is a route is a route... As a RB it makes NO difference. He will still get carries

TEs still need to block and catch... in fact no one has to do shit different really except the line as far as run blocking goes... shotgun pass protection sucks right now anyways...

By TT entering the game you ALREADY have that changup for the line they ALREADY have to hold their blocks longer... changing the O or not TT wont ever stop scrambling.

Mangini, Dilfer, Billick and about 10 radio host have now changed their tune and NOW say that the only way TT will be successful is if the staff builds a speard O around TT. I agree with them.

Bite the bullet and do something to change the direction of your franchise...

There MAY have been an argument for Luck(he has still yet to play a down in the NFL) but now that he is a pipe dream its not like we have anything good going for us that we cant change things up... we have nothing to lose, and everything to gain!

Except for slowing Tebow's progress. Like it or not he will have to improve on being a pocket passer. Period.

That doesn't mean the offense can't use his skillset a lot more, but using only the spread is a great way to lose, games and Tebow. Keeping a defense on its heels requires changing formations, different looks, etc.

Running spread only would be just as bad as running only I formation power runs.

[Cugel]

You personally have a better chance of having afternoon tea with God than of ever seeing a College spread option offense adopted in the NFL. It. Will. Never. Happen.

I think TT can adapt his game to pro football, because he'll put in the hours, is smart enough, and has the native athletic skills. I think an offense featuring TT should be using roll out and shotguns a good portion of the time. I even think its good for him to run, say, 2-4 times a game. What I am sure of, though, is that he simply must learn to operate from the pocket at least a portion of the or he will be another McDaniels bust.

Waiting for the "next generation" of transformational running QB's is like that awful and ridiculous Becket play "Waiting for Godot," where nothing happens throughout the play and the joke is that Godot will never arrive. Mobility is certainly a valuable asset, but mobility fades as time goes by, and even guys like Young, Elway, Moon, and Tarkenton eventually learn to be pocket QB's first and running QB's when forced. As for the rest...Kordell Stewart? Vince Young? Bobby Douglass? The names change but the storyline never does. They either become passers or they become flops.

I happen to think TT can do this too - but that Urban Myers spread option nonsense is strictly a High School and College thing.

This is all true. All of it. :coffee:

And the Tebowniacs will NEVER accept it. They will keep making excuses for every Tebow failure and will blame Elway for "sabotaging" Tebow.

There's an added reason you didn't mention: The current NFL rules were written to protect the QB in the pocket. No hitting the QB in the head, no leading with your helmet, no landing on the QB, etc.

Run out of the pocket and it's OPEN SEASON and every LB gets to take his shot. And it flat doesn't matter if Tebow is tough and can take a hit or that he'll learn to slide or go out of bounds, etc.

The more runs = more hits = more injuries.

And when you're paying the Franchise QB $10 million a year you don't want him taking any more risks than absolutely necessary.

Run him 10-15 times a game on designed option plays and that adds up to 160-240 rushes a year! He'll never last 5 years in the NFL if he does that! And no NFL team will commit to make him their Franchise QB and pay him $10 million a year either.

[Ravage!!!]

I'll say this as someone in TT's corner, who likes much about his potential, his character, his competitiveness, and his work ethic. I even think Mo is wrong in comparing Vick with Tebow, in that the only advantage Vick really has over Tebow is footspeed. I think a lot of the criticism directed at him is flat out silly.

You personally have a better chance of having afternoon tea with God than of ever seeing a College spread option offense adopted in the NFL. It. Will. Never. Happen.

I think TT can adapt his game to pro football, because he'll put in the hours, is smart enough, and has the native athletic skills. I think an offense featuring TT should be using roll out and shotguns a good portion of the time. I even think its good for him to run, say, 2-4 times a game. What I am sure of, though, is that he simply must learn to operate from the pocket at least a portion of the or he will be another McDaniels bust.

Waiting for the "next generation" of transformational running QB's is like that awful and ridiculous Becket play "Waiting for Godot," where nothing happens throughout the play and the joke is that Godot will never arrive. Mobility is certainly a valuable asset, but mobility fades as time goes by, and even guys like Young, Elway, Moon, and Tarkenton eventually learn to be pocket QB's first and running QB's when forced. As for the rest...Kordell Stewart? Vince Young? Bobby Douglass? The names change but the storyline never does. They either become passers or they become flops.

I happen to think TT can do this too - but that Urban Myers spread option nonsense is strictly a High School and College thing.

Great post, Dread :beer:

[tomjonesrocks]

...in that the only advantage Vick really has over Tebow is footspeed.

To say the only advantage Vick has over Tebow is footspeed is absurd.

Vick has a world-class, CANNON for an arm. It is, dare I say -- Cutler-esque. Astonishing for his size.

Tebow? Not so much.

AND he has wildly superior footspeed (and elusiveness, vision while running, etc.)

[Lancane]

To say the only advantage Vick has over Tebow is footspeed is absurd.

Vick has a world-class, CANNON for an arm. It is, dare I say -- Cutler-esque. Astonishing for his size.

Tebow? Not so much.

Good Post...

I was about to say much the same, Vick not only has a stronger arm but is far more accurate and unlike Tebow, he can pass from the pocket!

[MOtorboat]

Good Post...

I was about to say much the same, Vick not only has a stronger arm but is far more accurate and unlike Tebow, he can pass from the pocket!

And even with a more accurate arm, he's never been good at an NFL spread system.

[NorCalBronco7]

It doesnt really matter, at all, what offensive system Tebow fits best in. If he cant become an accurate passer, he wont have much, if any, success in the NFL. That is the bottom line.

[Dreadnought]

I'll differ in that I don't think Vick is especially accurate. Apart from the first half of 2010 he has been a very mediocre passer throughout his career - and thats being generous. I think he is utterly overrated. I will admit that he showed signs early last year of finally learning to play as an NFL QB but fizzled down the stretch.

Thats a side issue from Tebow, other than that comparing his accuracy at this stage to Vick's is not a compliment IMO.

[NightTerror218]

Let's just say that the Broncos change their offense to suit TT - BUT, there are 10 other players on offense. How many of these guys will need to totally abandon the way they learned to play their position - either in HS, college, or the pros - especially the OL players. I am sure that blocking for a pocket passer is totally different than blocking for a scrambling QB. PLEASE - TT is NOT the only player to be considered here.

Doesn't make much of a difference at all. Tebow will still be behind OL so blocking is the same. TE and WR are the same. Run routes and block. RB is only a little different because he wont get the handoff while on the move but instead while standing next to TT.

They guys do all those plays through HS, college and pros. Every team does a shotgun formation. If an offensive player can not make it in the shot gun then they should not be in the NFL. Because the only difference is with QB and center.

[MOtorboat]

I'll differ in that I don't think Vick is especially accurate. Apart from the first half of 2010 he has been a very mediocre passer throughout his career - and thats being generous. I think he is utterly overrated. I will admit that he showed signs early last year of finally learning to play as an NFL QB but fizzled down the stretch.

Thats a side issue from Tebow, other than that comparing his accuracy at this stage to Vick's is not a compliment IMO.

No, its not a compliment, but its a fair comparison.

(That said, I'm not sure how Vick faded down the stretch, when accuracy wise he completed 63.5 percent of his passes in the last seven games last season)

[Lancane]

Tebow will simply never be a pocket passer. As his staunchest supporter, you should realize that when even I say that he had no shot at being an accurate pure pocket passer then there really is no shot.

Either he learns or he fails, it's rather simple and that's what I've been saying from the beginning, since the moment McDaniels drafted him.


You either create an offense to cater to his unique skill set or you ship him off to someone who can.

There's an idea, except I'll let you in on a little secret...teams have tried that before, teams have literally tried to cater their offenses to suit the non pro-style quarterback, all have ended with near disastrous results. Tampa Bay did it for Young, Atlanta for Vick, Miami for White and the list goes on, those whom are apart of the NFL, who're considered professionals have come to realize what works and what doesn't, I think they know more then you do.

And who's going to trade for him and develop a specific offense for him? It's a lot easier now to find a franchise quarterback then at anytime in the history of the NFL, there are twenty-four teams currently who feel they have either a franchise or franchise capable quarterback or one who can develop into one. Please tell me what team you see doing that and walking away from what they feel works?


Lancane, you are unfortunately missing the point. I really dont care about your "dont coddle the QB" philosophy in this case. Tim SIMPLY CANT execute that style of offense at a high level. Period. Not now not EVER.

You can believe what you want, unfortunately that doesn't mean that it's not the truth. I've never seen a player benefit from coddling, but what the hell do I know...I only played the sport for well over fourteen years as well as coached kids to play the F'n game.


But he can win championships IMO if you build a custom made offense around him in the shotgun.

Again, the shotgun is not an offensive system nor is it a spread offense...it's an offensive formation, only two coaches have ever successfully developed and instilled a backbone shotgun offense...one in the 60's and the other in the 70's, both legends in the NFL and neither lasted long because they were easy to devise against after awhile.

Not to mention there is a difference between a NCAA Championship and Super Bowl Championship, that's like comparing lettering in football in high school to winning the Heisman.

[TXBRONC]

How do I feel about running a college spread offense in the NFL? No thanks.

[Ravage!!!]

The best comparison to Tebow, as I've always said, is Vince Young. Both are mainly running QBs, both are big, both don't have blazing speed but are elusive, both are not good passers, both have that "leadership" that people seem to rave about. The difference, obviously, is that Vince was a headcase off the field and didn't know how to take the criticisms because he never really had to growing up. Other than that, they are the same QB.

This is why I laugh when people try to tell me that Tebow is something "we've never seen before." Yes we have, and very recently. Tebow is just a nicer guy off the field.



**I don't think Vick is a very accurate passer. He certainly was not considered "accurate" by any means before last season. Vick is obviously a much better scrambler and runner than Tebow, and a much stronger arm, but I don't think he's really that much more accurate.

[tomjonesrocks]

Let's just say that the Broncos change their offense to suit TT - BUT, there are 10 other players on offense. How many of these guys will need to totally abandon the way they learned to play their position - either in HS, college, or the pros - especially the OL players. I am sure that blocking for a pocket passer is totally different than blocking for a scrambling QB. PLEASE - TT is NOT the only player to be considered here.

Though I am miles from a Tebow fanboy, I guess I don't see what it matters. This team has nothing to build around on offense. Whose career are we going to set back? Who from offensive skill positions do we really still need on the roster 3-4 years from now?

[NightTerror218]

I really do not want to see us go to the spread. If we ran something similar to it that is fine. But i do not want to run a strict spread offense. I want TT to be able to make his drops and to develop as the all around QB. He may not be the amazing pocket passer but as long as he is good at it, is all I ask for.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

The best comparison to Tebow, as I've always said, is Vince Young. Both are mainly running QBs, both are big, both don't have blazing speed but are elusive, both are not good passers, both have that "leadership" that people seem to rave about. The difference, obviously, is that Vince was a headcase off the field and didn't know how to take the criticisms because he never really had to growing up. Other than that, they are the same QB.

This is why I laugh when people try to tell me that Tebow is something "we've never seen before." Yes we have, and very recently. Tebow is just a nicer guy off the field.



**I don't think Vick is a very accurate passer. He certainly was not considered "accurate" by any means before last season. Vick is obviously a much better scrambler and runner than Tebow, and a much stronger arm, but I don't think he's really that much more accurate.


Rav-

Where in the history of the English speaking world was VY ever accused of having leadership qualities? :laugh: