View Full Version : Jake Plummer feels Orton's pain after being benched
Northman
10-22-2011, 11:36 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19169219
"I've been where (Orton) is," Plummer said. "And I remember when (Jay) Cutler took over. At that stage for me — and nobody knew this at the time — but I was done, I was done playing ball.
BroncoBully
10-22-2011, 11:49 AM
all plummer is trying to say is that he thinks orton is done.
Shazam!
10-22-2011, 11:51 AM
The comparisons are similiar but Jake's play was nowhere near as bad as Orton's I dont think and Denver of '06 was a much better team than we've seen the past two years.
MOtorboat
10-22-2011, 11:52 AM
Shanahan was an idiot for not putting more pieces on that team with Plummer, and throwing away several picks to move up in the draft.
BroncoStud
10-22-2011, 11:54 AM
Jake really was a "winner"... Kyle, not-so-much... I think it's pretty clear if you watched his body language that Jake was done the day we drafted Jay Cutler.
But the fact remains that both Jake and Kyle played themselves out of their starting roles. The difference being that Jake Plummer was a much better QB than Kyle Orton.
HORSEPOWER 56
10-22-2011, 12:03 PM
Shanahan was an idiot for not putting more pieces on that team with Plummer, and throwing away several picks to move up in the draft.
Plummer had his chance. He was playing his worst football when he got benched for Cutler. Shanny gave him 9 games and he went into the tank. Good QBs don't let the pressure of their backup ruin their confidence.
BORDERLINE
10-22-2011, 12:11 PM
Jake was gonna win games and he was gonna lose them. Orton on the other hand will only lose you games. I'm not gonna lie after the championship game I was happy we drafted Cutler. To bad it didn't work out with Jay but now seeing him in Chi town makes me feel better about the trade. Cutler plays this game as a job and only a job. Some players tough play with heart. Jake/Cutler/Orton all just treated the game like a job. In Plummer's defense he came out and said Shanny took the fun out of the game. That's why i'm excited to see what Tebow brings to the table.
Plummer had his chance. He was playing his worst football when he got benched for Cutler. Shanny gave him 9 games and he went into the tank. Good QBs don't let the pressure of their backup ruin their confidence.
I think it was 11 games, but as to whether or not it had anything to do with the the pressure of Jay behind him, that's more a point of debate than fact.
Denver27og
10-22-2011, 12:13 PM
Orton is just like plummer without the mobility
Ravage!!!
10-22-2011, 12:13 PM
I think Jake just told us what we all knew, and what we all could see. After Cutler was drafted, he called it in. He was done.
Ravage!!!
10-22-2011, 12:15 PM
Shanahan was an idiot for not putting more pieces on that team with Plummer, and throwing away several picks to move up in the draft.
Not from where I stood. Plummer PROVED that he hated practiced, hated studying film, and only liked to play the games. Plummer was an idiot for hanging up his cleats instead of fighting for his job.
Plummer was NOT a franchise QB. If you don't have a franchise QB, then you move on. If that guy isn't the franchise QB, then you move on. That's where we are today. Prove that you are, or we WILL move on. Drafting Cutler was the right move for the franchise.
HORSEPOWER 56
10-22-2011, 12:25 PM
Not from where I stood. Plummer PROVED that he hated practiced, hated studying film, and only liked to play the games. Plummer was an idiot for hanging up his cleats instead of fighting for his job.
Plummer was NOT a franchise QB. If you don't have a franchise QB, then you move on. If that guy isn't the franchise QB, then you move on. That's where we are today. Prove that you are, or we WILL move on. Drafting Cutler was the right move for the franchise.
Plummer had plenty of physical talent and had all the potential in the world to be a "franchise" QB. His arm was a lot better than guys gave him credit for and that along with his athletic ability was dangerous. Plummer's only limitation was Plummer. He was reckless and not mentally tough which made him appear "uncoachable". He always seemed like he was "winging it" and refused to put the time in to fix the mental side of his game. The difference between Plummer and other mobile QBs was that when things broke down and it was time to make a play, that's when Plummer would make a bad decision (left handed pass, throw into triple coverage). He was great at avoiding sacks and buying time, but he'd throw those "unforced" (no pressure) INTs right after buying himself the time not to have to.
I think Jake just told us what we all knew, and what we all could see. After Cutler was drafted, he called it in. He was done.
Hogwash. After he was replaced, he decided to retire. Something that shouldn't be surprising, since a number of team mates, including Jay, said that Jake had talked at the end of the season as if he was done -- contrary to the fans claiming he retired after the trade talk to Tampa started, because he was tired of competing.
It was reported over and over, by media and fellow Broncos, that Plummer wanted to leave the game while healthy & wealthy, and that football wasn't all he had or wanted, like so many other players.
Northman
10-22-2011, 12:42 PM
Plummer's only limitation was Plummer. He was reckless and not mentally tough which made him appear "uncoachable". He always seemed like he was "winging it" and refused to put the time in to fix the mental side of his game. The difference between Plummer and other mobile QBs was that when things broke down and it was time to make a play, that's when Plummer would make a bad decision (left handed pass, throw into triple coverage). He was great at avoiding sacks and buying time, but he'd throw those "unforced" (no pressure) INTs right after buying himself the time not to have to.
^This.
Northman
10-22-2011, 12:44 PM
Hogwash. After he was replaced, he decided to retire.
Thats somewhat debateable. He never announced it right after being replaced nor did you even hear about it until after he was traded to Tampa and didnt want to go to compete.
Ravage!!!
10-22-2011, 12:47 PM
Hogwash. After he was replaced, he decided to retire. Something that shouldn't be surprising, since a number of team mates, including Jay, said that Jake had talked at the end of the season as if he was done -- contrary to the fans claiming he retired after the trade talk to Tampa started, because he was tired of competing.
It was reported over and over, by media and fellow Broncos, that Plummer wanted to leave the game while healthy & wealthy, and that football wasn't all he had or wanted, like so many other players.
Whats the hogwash? He played like CRAP in his last season, and he was obviously not "into it" as he used to be. The drafting of Cutler basically knocked the wind out of him. He was done, mentally, and it showed severely on the field that last season.
Ravage!!!
10-22-2011, 12:49 PM
Plummer had plenty of physical talent and had all the potential in the world to be a "franchise" QB. His arm was a lot better than guys gave him credit for and that along with his athletic ability was dangerous. Plummer's only limitation was Plummer. He was reckless and not mentally tough which made him appear "uncoachable". He always seemed like he was "winging it" and refused to put the time in to fix the mental side of his game. The difference between Plummer and other mobile QBs was that when things broke down and it was time to make a play, that's when Plummer would make a bad decision (left handed pass, throw into triple coverage). He was great at avoiding sacks and buying time, but he'd throw those "unforced" (no pressure) INTs right after buying himself the time not to have to.
Can't really disagree with anything here.
Like you said, it was pretty much a mental thing for Jake. He just didn't really want to put in the time it takes to study film and get better. He enjoyed playing on Sunday, and hated practice.
Thats somewhat debateable. He never announced it right after being replaced nor did you even hear about it until after he was traded to Tampa and didnt want to go to compete.
It's been so long, that I don't know if even I can dig up the old quotes, but prior to the trade to Tampa, multiple players said they wouldn't be surprised if Jake retired, based on things he said to them, the goodbyes he said, following the final game of the '06 season.
Whats the hogwash? He played like CRAP in his last season, and he was obviously not "into it" as he used to be. The drafting of Cutler basically knocked the wind out of him. He was done, mentally, and it showed severely on the field that last season.
As you've always done, you completely discount the fact that Heimerdinger was brought in to change the offense to a drop back passing offense, and they tried to shoe horn it in, even though not only wasn't it Jake's strength, but far more important, the small, agile offensive line were not capable of straight up pass blocking.
It was exactly the same as Bates trying to shoe-horn his defense in when the players on the field weren't capable of running it.
Thats somewhat debateable. He never announced it right after being replaced nor did you even hear about it until after he was traded to Tampa and didnt want to go to compete.
Here you go, the best I can do spending only a few minutes looking. This was almost two weeks before the Jake to TB talk started. There were a couple Broncos in this time frame, prior to the trade deadline, stating things to this affect about Jake, based on things he said following the final game of the '06 season.
Jay Cutler said Thursday that he's talked to Jake Plummer about retirement. "He's a competitor," Cutler said after saying that it wouldn't surprise him if Plummer retires. "I know he loves the game and loves Sundays, so if he came back I wouldn't be surprised that way either." Source: CBS4Denver.com Feb 22 - 9:14 PM
Ravage!!!
10-22-2011, 01:25 PM
As you've always done, you completely discount the fact that Heimerdinger was brought in to change the offense to a drop back passing offense, and they tried to shoe horn it in, even though not only wasn't it Jake's strength, but far more important, the small, agile offensive line were not capable of straight up pass blocking.
It was exactly the same as Bates trying to shoe-horn his defense in when the players on the field weren't capable of running it.
Yes, and as you've always done, you are trying to find excuses (excuse me, "reasons" ) why Jake looked so bad his last season. Just as top does with Orton. Jake's OWN words:
"I've been where (Orton) is," Plummer said. "And I remember when (Jay) Cutler took over. At that stage for me — and nobody knew this at the time — but I was done, I was done playing ball."
"I was ready the year before a little bit. I was considering it then. Had we won the Super Bowl, I would have been like, 'Peace, NFL, I got my childhood dream of a Super Bowl ring, I'm done with you.' You don't want to go out like that, (but) I knew right then I was done."
He says it was when "Jay took over"..but it very well could have been when Jay was drafted. He said he would have retired if we won the Super Bowl and was already thinking about it the year before. So you think the drafting of Cutler didn't take the wind out of him and basically put him on autopilot going through that last season? really? Because watching him play (and going by his very own words), he sure looked like it to me, and it wasn't because we were trying make him throw from a different spot on the field....it was because he had mentally retired, and was gone.
chazoe60
10-22-2011, 01:26 PM
I really liked Plummer. He won a bunch of games for us
Kyle on the other hand has never done shit for the Broncos. When Orton leaves it'll be a relief.
Northman
10-22-2011, 01:35 PM
Yes, and as you've always done, you are trying to find excuses (excuse me, "reasons" ) why Jake looked so bad his last season. Just as top does with Orton. Jake's OWN words:
"I've been where (Orton) is," Plummer said. "And I remember when (Jay) Cutler took over. At that stage for me — and nobody knew this at the time — but I was done, I was done playing ball."
"I was ready the year before a little bit. I was considering it then. Had we won the Super Bowl, I would have been like, 'Peace, NFL, I got my childhood dream of a Super Bowl ring, I'm done with you.' You don't want to go out like that, (but) I knew right then I was done."
He says it was when "Jay took over"..but it very well could have been when Jay was drafted. He said he would have retired if we won the Super Bowl and was already thinking about it the year before. So you think the drafting of Cutler didn't take the wind out of him and basically put him on autopilot going through that last season? really? Because watching him play (and going by his very own words), he sure looked like it to me, and it wasn't because we were trying make him throw from a different spot on the field....it was because he had mentally retired, and was gone.
Yea, there's no question to me that he packed it in early. When he makes references about its not Jay's fault that he was drafted in the first round its a clear indicator that he knew his leash wasnt long and he didnt do anything to keep Jay on the bench.
Yes, and as you've always done, you are trying to find excuses (excuse me, "reasons" ) why Jake looked so bad his last season. Just as top does with Orton. Jake's OWN words:
"I've been where (Orton) is," Plummer said. "And I remember when (Jay) Cutler took over. At that stage for me — and nobody knew this at the time — but I was done, I was done playing ball."
"I was ready the year before a little bit. I was considering it then. Had we won the Super Bowl, I would have been like, 'Peace, NFL, I got my childhood dream of a Super Bowl ring, I'm done with you.' You don't want to go out like that, (but) I knew right then I was done."
He says it was when "Jay took over"..but it very well could have been when Jay was drafted. He said he would have retired if we won the Super Bowl and was already thinking about it the year before. So you think the drafting of Cutler didn't take the wind out of him and basically put him on autopilot going through that last season? really? Because watching him play (and going by his very own words), he sure looked like it to me, and it wasn't because we were trying make him throw from a different spot on the field....it was because he had mentally retired, and was gone.
First, even in defense of your "Jake folded when Jay was drafted" you quote Jake saying he considered it the year before.
Ravage, it would be a lot easier for us to go and bump the hundreds of posts between us on this subject, rather than rehash it in here.
Dreadnought
10-22-2011, 01:42 PM
The comparisons are similiar but Jake's play was nowhere near as bad as Orton's I dont think and Denver of '06 was a much better team than we've seen the past two years.
Agreed, Denver 06 was far better, but Jake of '06 was even worse than Orton. In "03-'05 he was reasonable solid. The wheels totally came off in '06. Why? I think I've read a theory or two about that once or twice :D
Yea, there's no question to me that he packed it in early. When he makes references about its not Jay's fault that he was drafted in the first round its a clear indicator that he knew his leash wasnt long and he didnt do anything to keep Jay on the bench.
Or, it's his way of saying he didn't have any hard feelings towards Jay -- it's part of the business kind of thing. Unlike what happened with Orton here, all indications were that Jake did everything he could to support Jay before and after Jay replaced him.
Northman
10-22-2011, 01:46 PM
Or, it's his way of saying he didn't have any hard feelings towards Jay -- it's part of the business kind of thing. Unlike what happened with Orton here, all indications were that Jake did everything he could to support Jay before and after Jay replaced him.
Come on Tned.
No one is debating that he didnt support Jay. But the guy self admittedly mentioned in the article that he wondered when he was going to get benched. He said he knew it was only a matter of time so going by that you can tell that it was sitting in the back of his mind. Instead of just going out playing like he should it was clear he let it get to him.
Nomad
10-22-2011, 01:59 PM
Agreed, Denver 06 was far better, but Jake of '06 was even worse than Orton. In "03-'05 he was reasonable solid. The wheels totally came off in '06. Why? I think I've read a theory or two about that once or twice :D
Yep! Just my theory, Shanny saw a shiny new toy when he didn't need it instead of beefing up the defense. Something between Plummer and Shanny made the switch turn off before the 06 draft and especially afterwards.
Come on Tned.
No one is debating that he didnt support Jay. But the guy self admittedly mentioned in the article that he wondered when he was going to get benched. He said he knew it was only a matter of time so going by that you can tell that it was sitting in the back of his mind. Instead of just going out playing like he should it was clear he let it get to him.
Right back at ya, North.
Cone on North.
That's a very warped reading of his quote, to fit your position. He was clearly saying that Jay was a first round pic, not a 5th or 6th round pick, therefore he knew he would eventually be replaced by the first rounder. He also talked about the "blast" of Shanahan benching him. A significant portion of the article was about being ticked about that, which is not consistent with the case you are making.
Anyway, whatever. This is such old news, and you guys are right, Broncos football has been so much better post Jake. I hated being one of the top three winningest teams in the NFL and making annual trips to the playoffs. Jake sucked. Jake folded. Whatever.
Northman
10-22-2011, 02:20 PM
That's a very warped reading of his quote, to fit your position.
Incorrect. Here it is again,
'I guess I always thought it was coming after they picked him. I just didn't know when."
To me that clearly shows he was expecting to get replaced and it bothered him enough to make the statement.
Anyway, whatever. This is such old news, and you guys are right, Broncos football has been so much better post Jake. I hated being one of the top three winningest teams in the NFL and making annual trips to the playoffs. Jake sucked. Jake folded. Whatever.
Who says its been better post Jake? Surely i havent. Im just stating merely that Jake was pretty average for a QB who had the benefit to play in a better overall system and talented organization. But even with that he still had massive holes in his game when it came to preparing and executing when it mattered.
Was he better than Orton? Oh yea. But that really isnt the issue here, at least for me.
Ravage!!!
10-22-2011, 02:23 PM
Yep! Just my theory, Shanny saw a shiny new toy when he didn't need it instead of beefing up the defense. Something between Plummer and Shanny made the switch turn off before the 06 draft and especially afterwards.
I think its more than that. I think that EVERY team in the NFL wants.. no.. NEEDS a franchise/stud QB to be competitive. You look at the NFL today, and thats just the truth. Plummer had proved that he didn't like to study, he didn't like to practice, and he only liked the games.
Think of this. If the players knew that Jake was talking/thinking of retiring after the game in Pittsburgh, you don't think Shanahan knew?
Shanahan saw the opportunity to get a top round QB, and took it. I think it was the right pick for the Broncos, at the time. Just as I believe that if Tebow is NOT the QB of this team's future, NOW is the time to go after that stud QB. There is no sense "waiting" on that position.
Ravage!!!
10-22-2011, 02:27 PM
That's a very warped reading of his quote, to fit your position. He was clearly saying that Jay was a first round pic, not a 5th or 6th round pick, therefore he knew he would eventually be replaced by the first rounder.
Exactly what we've been saying. He KNEW he was just buying time before being replaced...hence..having the wind knocked out of him and not really having that drive he had before.
Anyway, whatever. This is such old news, and you guys are right, Broncos football has been so much better post Jake. I hated being one of the top three winningest teams in the NFL and making annual trips to the playoffs. Jake sucked. Jake folded. Whatever.
I have forgotten how defensive and over-reactive you got about this discussion. It's been a long time since I've seen this side of you.
Jake was simply not going to be the answer for the long-term. Thats what it comes down to.
Nomad
10-22-2011, 02:32 PM
I think its more than that. I think that EVERY team in the NFL wants.. no.. NEEDS a franchise/stud QB to be competitive. You look at the NFL today, and thats just the truth. Plummer had proved that he didn't like to study, he didn't like to practice, and he only liked the games.
Think of this. If the players knew that Jake was talking/thinking of retiring after the game in Pittsburgh, you don't think Shanahan knew?
Shanahan saw the opportunity to get a top round QB, and took it. I think it was the right pick for the Broncos, at the time. Just as I believe that if Tebow is NOT the QB of this team's future, NOW is the time to go after that stud QB. There is no sense "waiting" on that position.
We'll never know how things would have turned out but we'll have to agree to disagree again on missing out on 3 time ALL PRO Ngata and where things went wrong. BTW, I don't think Jake thought of retirement until after the first round of the 06 draft.
Ravage!!!
10-22-2011, 02:33 PM
We'll never know how things would have turned out but we'll have to agree to disagree again on missing out on 3 time ALL PRO Ngata and where things went wrong.
Yeah... but QBs will out-rank a DT EVERY time of the week.....
Ravage!!!
10-22-2011, 02:34 PM
BTW, I don't think Jake thought of retirement until after the first round of the 06 draft.
He says he did, and some teammates said he was talking about it the year prior....or at least thats what Tned said, I believe.
Nomad
10-22-2011, 02:35 PM
Yeah... but QBs will out-rank a DT EVERY time of the week.....
There was a solid QB in place and Cutler wasn't all that....he's still that way. BRONCOS missed the boat.
Incorrect. Here it is again,
To me that clearly shows he was expecting to get replaced and it bothered him enough to make the statement.
You're warping the statement. He said he always knew he would be replaced. Wow, that is shocking, why would an older, vet QB ever think he was going be replaced when the team moved up to draft a QB 11th overall? :confused:
If you take it in the context of everything else, he clearly didn't expect it when it happened, with the team 7-4 and in position to make the playoffs.
Anyway, it's the same old, same old. People that thought Jake was an average, or worse, QB will read this and say, "see, he was a choke." Those that saw Jake differently, probably won't read between the lines and distort the quotes, but take them at face value.
No different than people that NOW fully admit McDaniels was a disaster, but still defend his trading of Jake, Marshall, Hillis, drafting of Moreno, etc.
Shazam!
10-22-2011, 02:37 PM
If the players knew that Jake was talking/thinking of retiring after the game in Pittsburgh, you don't think Shanahan knew?
Rav, this is the best post you have ever made and sheds light on why Shanahan knew the jig was up with Jake.
Many people wondered 'Why would you draft a QB when you just made the AFCCG?!'
If Jake openly spoke of retirement and word got around that he no longer had the 'It' for playing, obviously the Coach/GM would seek another option at QB. As if that wouldn't trickle down throughout the team?! Duh.
I knew its 5+ years later and completely irrelevant, but it now makes so much sense.
Exactly what we've been saying. He KNEW he was just buying time before being replaced...hence..having the wind knocked out of him and not really having that drive he had before.
I have forgotten how defensive and over-reactive you got about this discussion. It's been a long time since I've seen this side of you.
Jake was simply not going to be the answer for the long-term. Thats what it comes down to.
And that just sums up why we often butted heads in two, condescending sentences. It's why I always had problems with you and Dream on Mania.
Anyway, that's ancient history as this subject is.
Northman
10-22-2011, 02:42 PM
You're warping the statement. He said he always knew he would be replaced. Wow, that is shocking, why would an older, vet QB ever think he was going be replaced when the team moved up to draft a QB 11th overall? :confused:
Uh no, your clearly simplfying the statement.
While it is TRUE that older QB's will be replaced at some point (DUH) the fact that he makes a statement of "WHEN" shows he knew his days were numbered. Jake wasnt an over the hill guy and although Shanahan had counted on Jake staying the starter for a while Jake folded under the pressure because he KNEW that Jay was sitting there.
Ravage!!!
10-22-2011, 02:42 PM
And that just sums up why we often butted heads in two, condescending sentences. It's why I always had problems with you and Dream on Mania.
Anyway, that's ancient history as this subject is.
apparently its not.
Ravage!!!
10-22-2011, 02:44 PM
There was a solid QB in place and Cutler wasn't all that....he's still that way. BRONCOS missed the boat.
A solid QB that was already looking towards retirement. Doesn't matter how the QB turns out (and he's STILL much much better than we had/have).... because a franchise is ALWAYS going to look into getting the franchise QB over the franchise DT. QBs win games, DTs don't. So it's easy to look back and say "see what we missed"... when the gamble of success is so much greater with the QB.
silkamilkamonico
10-22-2011, 02:45 PM
I wonder if Plunger saw the downward spiral coming within the organization and wanted no part of it. Ironically, the Denver Broncos have been on a 600 MPH uncontrolled vertical dive since 2005.
I have even completely lost faith in Pat Bowlen to know what it takes to win, nevermind the amateurs in the front office trying to "run" the show here.
Ravage!!!
10-22-2011, 02:47 PM
Rav, this is the best post you have ever made and sheds light on why Shanahan knew the jig was up with Jake.
Many people wondered 'Why would you draft a QB when you just made the AFCCG?!'
If Jake openly spoke of retirement and word got around that he no longer had the 'It' for playing, obviously the Coach/GM would seek another option at QB. As if that wouldn't trickle down throughout the team?! Duh.
I knew its 5+ years later and completely irrelevant, but it now makes so much sense.
Thanks Shaz..... but... Come on, Man! I've had better posts!!! :D :beer:
Ravage!!!
10-22-2011, 02:48 PM
I wonder if Plunger saw the downward spiral coming within the organization and wanted no part of it. Ironically, the Denver Broncos have been on a 600 MPH uncontrolled vertical dive since 2005.
I have even completely lost faith in Pat Bowlen to know what it takes to win, nevermind the amateurs in the front office trying to "run" the show here.
Whats that character's name, on SNL, that does the "Debbie Downer" skit? You have started reminding me of her. I read your posts and hear the "whhaahh whaaw whaaawww whaww" noise after it (sorry, hard to type out a noise).
Shazam!
10-22-2011, 02:49 PM
I wonder if Plunger saw the downward spiral coming within the organization and wanted no part of it.
I dont think Nostradamus could've predicted this Franchise's downfall the way it's been the past few years. Nobody couldve predicted Cutler getting traded and all the other garbage.
silkamilkamonico
10-22-2011, 02:52 PM
Whats that character's name, on SNL, that does the "Debbie Downer" skit? You have started reminding me of her. I read your posts and hear the "whhaahh whaaw whaaawww whaww" noise after it (sorry, hard to type out a noise).
Debbie Downer looks at the negative possibilities within situations, I am simply pointing out the factual aspescts of this current situation.
This organization is an utter embarrassment.
"Garbage In, Garbage Out"
Uh no, your clearly simplfying the statement.
While it is TRUE that older QB's will be replaced at some point (DUH) the fact that he makes a statement of "WHEN" shows he knew his days were numbered. Jake wasnt an over the hill guy and although Shanahan had counted on Jake staying the starter for a while Jake folded under the pressure because he KNEW that Jay was sitting there.
I'll agree to disagree, but don't have the desire to go back down this rabbit hole. Three starting QBs ago and two head coaches ago. You guys have fun with it.
silkamilkamonico
10-22-2011, 02:55 PM
I dont think Nostradamus could've predicted this Franchise's downfall the way it's been the past few years. Nobody couldve predicted Cutler getting traded and all the other garbage.
I actually thought one of the requirements of the next coach was they couldn't touch the offense, that the offense was going to be here to stay for the most part. The fact that Bowlen played a puppet to the entire situation shows this organization has had no concrete direction since 2009. It continues to spiral in sewage.
Shazam!
10-22-2011, 02:58 PM
I actually thought one of the requirements of the next coach was they couldn't touch the offense, that the offense was going to be here to stay for the most part. The fact that Bowlen played a puppet to the entire situation shows this organization has had no concrete direction since 2009. It continues to spiral in sewage.
I thought McDaniels was brought in to make the Broncos like the Patriots? That meant changing the Offense...
The desire to move past this ridiculous controversy from the past is understandable, however, this was not brought up on a whim, this is in the DP.
The only Denver QB I'm concerned with now is Tim Tebow, and hoping he eats the Dolphin's defense like a couple of tuna sandwiches tomorrow.
silkamilkamonico
10-22-2011, 03:03 PM
McDaniels was brought in because he was allegedly a bright young offensive mind to work with the current offensive players and help them score in the redzone which was something cutler and company could not do under Shanahan. Unfortunately, we were given basically the same problems on offense under McDaniels that we had under Shanahan. No problems moving the ball in between the 20's, couldn't score in the redzone and couldn't do anything in short yard situations.
Nomad
10-22-2011, 03:11 PM
So it's easy to look back and say "see what we missed"... when the gamble of success is so much greater with the QB.
It was already known that Ngata was gonna be special and I don't believe Plummer would have retired. I believe there is more to the story...I guess we'll have to wait for the book to come out.
Oh well, I guess we could go on and on if it was the right draft choice but the results will never be known.
Shazam!
10-22-2011, 03:12 PM
McDaniels was brought in because he was allegedly a bright young offensive mind to work with the current offensive players and help them score in the redzone which was something cutler and company could not do under Shanahan. Unfortunately, we were given basically the same problems on offense under McDaniels that we had under Shanahan. No problems moving the ball in between the 20's, couldn't score in the redzone and couldn't do anything in short yard situations
The degradation of the RB position happened under Shanahan too. This problem goes back years. Shanny thought he could plug anybody in and they'd have 1,000 yards easy. That's why they've sucked in RZ and short yardages.
Moreno has been a huge bust and one of McD's biggest mistakes along with Cutler and Hillis. Not having an everydown Back on this roster hurts them terribly. McGahee has only been a stopgap.
silkamilkamonico
10-22-2011, 03:16 PM
Agree about Moreno. I don't think Moreno is that bad and could be an very positive asset in a passing attack, but considering he was a first round pick, yes terrible.
nevcraw
10-22-2011, 03:59 PM
why all the debate on plummer? dude quit plain and simple and the why and when doesn't really matter.
He was a gamer no doubt and I really enjoyed some of his football but it was clear to all watching he was a one trick pony with only being effective with rollouts and bootlegs. Shanny's offense was limited with him and it wasn't like he was working on his craft.
getting a franchise type qb was the best choice shanny could have made at the time.
I do applaud him for deciding when to walk away on his terms instead of trying to fight it out in
dogfish
10-22-2011, 05:06 PM
"I've been where (Orton) is," Plummer said. "And I remember when (Jay) Cutler took over. At that stage for me — and nobody knew this at the time — but I was done, I was done playing ball.
actually, you were done when they drafted jay, and everybody knew it within a couple of games. . . .
dogfish
10-22-2011, 05:08 PM
Anyway, whatever. This is such old news, and you guys are right, Broncos football has been so much better post Jake. I hated being one of the top three winningest teams in the NFL and making annual trips to the playoffs. Jake sucked. Jake folded. Whatever.
yep. . . i miss al wilson too. . .
:heh:
Thnikkaman
10-22-2011, 05:17 PM
Shanahan was an idiot for not putting more pieces on that team with Plummer, and throwing away several picks to move up in the draft.
mobile salute
underrated29
10-22-2011, 06:19 PM
plummer didnt suck, kyle orton does.
Plummer actually could win games and come from behind. Kyle only knew how to phantom sack and throw ints....
I swear on EVERY Orton come back try- it ended in a fumble or Int...I swear. Go check the film of every game....the jets last year, this year, all the games where he tried to lead us back- all ended in Ints or fumbles.
Pathetic!
Northman
10-22-2011, 07:09 PM
plummer didnt suck, kyle orton does.
Plummer actually could win games and come from behind. Kyle only knew how to phantom sack and throw ints....
I swear on EVERY Orton come back try- it ended in a fumble or Int...I swear. Go check the film of every game....the jets last year, this year, all the games where he tried to lead us back- all ended in Ints or fumbles.
Pathetic!
Actually, they really are not that far apart.
When you look at the last two seasons for Jake in Arizona where the team went 7-9 in 2001 and 5-11 in 2002 Jake had 8 comebacks. For Orton in 2009 (8-8) and 2010 (4-12) Kyle had 4. While both clubs at their respective times had other issues on the team its pretty apparent that neither could elevate their team enough in the win column.
BroncoStud
10-22-2011, 08:32 PM
Actually, they really are not that far apart.
When you look at the last two seasons for Jake in Arizona where the team went 7-9 in 2001 and 5-11 in 2002 Jake had 8 comebacks. For Orton in 2009 (8-8) and 2010 (4-12) Kyle had 4. While both clubs at their respective times had other issues on the team its pretty apparent that neither could elevate their team enough in the win column.
Ummm. Jake won over 70% of his starts in Denver, and he was throwing to guys like Ashley Lelie and Darius Watts a lot of the time, and handing the football off to guys like Ruben Droughns and Mike Anderson...
I don't think he gets NEARLY the credit he deserves for the plays he made. The difference between Jake and Kyle is substantial. One was good and the other sucks.
Canmore
10-22-2011, 08:40 PM
Ummm. Jake won over 70% of his starts in Denver, and he was throwing to guys like Ashley Lelie and Darius Watts a lot of the time, and handing the football off to guys like Ruben Droughns and Mike Anderson...
I don't think he gets NEARLY the credit he deserves for the plays he made. The difference between Jake and Kyle is substantial. One was good and the other sucks.
This pretty much sums it up. Jake made plays. I pretty much always felt we were in the game with a few exceptions. At least with a chance to win in the fourth quarter, I believed we had a chance. With Orton you know it is over. As an added bonus, Jake was exciting, good Jake or bad.
Northman
10-22-2011, 08:47 PM
Ummm. Jake won over 70% of his starts in Denver, and he was throwing to guys like Ashley Lelie and Darius Watts a lot of the time, and handing the football off to guys like Ruben Droughns and Mike Anderson...
I don't think he gets NEARLY the credit he deserves for the plays he made. The difference between Jake and Kyle is substantial. One was good and the other sucks.
Jake was surrounded by much better teams than Kyle was. That isnt just a guess, thats fact. I hate having to defend Kyle here because he is very average and worse than Jake. But, people want to give the guy WAY too much credit than he actually deserves.
BroncoStud
10-22-2011, 08:51 PM
Jake was surrounded by much better teams than Kyle was. That isnt just a guess, thats fact. I hate having to defend Kyle here because he is very average and worse than Jake. But, people want to give the guy WAY too much credit than he actually deserves.
How was the talent so much better? Rod was at the end of his career. The RBs were no-names. The TEs were OK. The line was OK. The defense was an Al Davis injury away from being one of the worst in the NFL.
I will concede that the coaching was much, much better when Jake was there, but the talent is debatable. Denver is a few QB plays away from being 4-1 right now. I happen to think that Jake circa 2004-2005 would have this team near the top of the division at the moment.
He was a LOT better than Orton.
Northman
10-22-2011, 08:58 PM
I will concede that the coaching was much, much better
No question this is the biggest aspect. The system and coaching were WORLDS better than what Orton was faced with. Our defenses and offensive outputs were way better than what we are faced with now.
when Jake was there, but the talent is debatable. Denver is a few QB plays away from being 4-1 right now. I happen to think that Jake circa 2004-2005 would have this team near the top of the division at the moment.
Jake was a turnover machine, much worse than Kyle actually. It was his signature throughout his time in Denver. Do your really think that with the lack of talent that we had around Orton would of benefitted Jake? I dont think so. The problem with Jake was always turnovers, not his ability to make plays.
He was a LOT better than Orton.
Not by much. He could do a few things better than Kyle but was worse than Kyle in other areas.
Canmore
10-22-2011, 09:07 PM
No question this is the biggest aspect. The system and coaching were WORLDS better than what Orton was faced with. Our defenses and offensive outputs were way better than what we are faced with now.
Jake was a turnover machine, much worse than Kyle actually. It was his signature throughout his time in Denver. Do your really think that with the lack of talent that we had around Orton would of benefitted Jake? I dont think so. The problem with Jake was always turnovers, not his ability to make plays.
Not by much. He could do a few things better than Kyle but was worse than Kyle in other areas.
Wins comes to mind. It seemed to me the team played harder with Jake than the team did with Kyle. Granted, it is a different team but this team seems to play harder with Tim. Maybe leadership had a play in the equation.
Juriga72
10-22-2011, 09:14 PM
Jake Plummer is what Kyle Orton would be with the #2 rushing attack and #6 scoring defense...
He'd lead us to wins..and then bleh.... JUST like Jake Plummer did
Northman
10-22-2011, 09:14 PM
Wins comes to mind. It seemed to me the team played harder with Jake than the team did with Kyle. Granted, it is a different team but this team seems to play harder with Tim. Maybe leadership had a play in the equation.
Well, whether or not they played harder with Jake i dont know. I know they liked him as a QB but the guys also seem to like Kyle. But when Jay came in off the bench as a rookie our offensive production went up despite still losing games.
However, this is why i pointed to the last couple of years of Jake's career in Arizona rather than what he did in Denver because of the coaching/surrounding talent involved. While in Arizona Jake was unable to do any better for them than Kyle did for Denver the last couple of years.
So one would have to question just how much "better" he is than Kyle. I mean, personally l would rather roll the dice with Jake than Kyle but again the numbers for Jake in Denver were very misleading because he simply came into a much better situation than Kyle did. And thats what im getting at.
Canmore
10-22-2011, 09:22 PM
Well, whether or not they played harder with Jake i dont know. I know they liked him as a QB but the guys also seem to like Kyle. But when Jay came in off the bench as a rookie our offensive production went up despite still losing games.
However, this is why i pointed to the last couple of years of Jake's career in Arizona rather than what he did in Denver because of the coaching/surrounding talent involved. While in Arizona Jake was unable to do any better for them than Kyle did for Denver the last couple of years.
So one would have to question just how much "better" he is than Kyle. I mean, personally l would rather roll the dice with Jake than Kyle but again the numbers for Jake in Denver were very misleading because he simply came into a much better situation than Kyle did. And thats what im getting at.
Jake did win a playoff game while in Arizona and a large portion of the credit for that teams success went to Jake Plummer. I don't believe for a second that Jake was the second coming, he certainly had limitations but I would say that he was a huge upgrade over Kyle. If nothing else he was a gamer.
Northman
10-22-2011, 09:25 PM
Jake did win a playoff game while in Arizona and a large portion of the credit for that teams success went to Jake Plummer. I don't believe for a second that Jake was the second coming, he certainly had limitations but I would say that he was a huge upgrade over Kyle. If nothing else he was a gamer.
Still dont think he is that far and away better than Kyle but i do agree he had more desire to win than Kyle does.
Jake was a turnover machine, much worse than Kyle. It was his signature throughout his time in Denver.
I know I said I wad done revising this worn out debate, but it's hard to let revisionist history like this pass. I'm sure it's not intentional North, and instead, just remembering a few of Jakes more bone head plays.
Jake is fourth in Denver history in terms of interception avoidance, throwing one every 34 attempts (Elway is 6th at one every 32 attempts for reference).
Jake had significantly more attempts than the three QBs with better avoidance numbers. At the same time, Jake threw 71 TDs (3rd) in his 3+ years against his 47 INTs (7th).
Northman
10-22-2011, 09:55 PM
I know I said I wad done revising this worn out debate, but it's hard to let revisionist history like this pass. I'm sure it's not intentional North, and instead, just remembering a few of Jakes more bone head plays.
Jake is fourth in Denver history in terms of interception avoidance, throwing one every 34 attempts (Elway is 6th at one every 32 attempts for reference).
Jake had significantly more attempts than the three QBs with better avoidance numbers. At the same time, Jake threw 71 TDs (3rd) in his 3+ years against his 47 INTs (7th).
Again, you got to keep in context of the debate being made. This is why im using the last two years in Az because the squads and surrounding teams are closer to being the same. Because of the situation that Jake had coming into Denver would improve. I can bet money that Orton playing under Shanahan those same years could do almost as well with the upgraded coaching/scheme.
Again, you got to keep in context of the debate being made. This is why im using the last two years in Az because the squads and surrounding teams are closer to being the same. Because of the situation that Jake had coming into Denver would improve. I can bet money that Orton playing under Shanahan those same years could do almost as well with the upgraded coaching/scheme.
I was just pointing out the inaccuracy of your statement that Jake was a turnover machine in Denver. Simply isn't true. Unlike most of the other things in this thread, pro or con, this isn't opinion, but fact.
It's up there with the inaccurate statement many made about Cutler being a red zone turnover machine in Denver, when in fact he was something like 33 TDs vs. 4 INTs, or something like that (going by memory, but that's the ballpark).
I don't think people intentionally distort the facts in these cases, but instead lock on to things like the left handed interception, and stuff like that.
Northman
10-22-2011, 10:07 PM
I was just pointing out the inaccuracy of your statement that Jake was a turnover machine in Denver.
This is your problem, i never said he was a turnover machine in Denver. I said he was a turnover machine as a "player".
This is your problem, i never said he was a turnover machine in Denver. I said he was a turnover machine as a "player".
:confused: I'm honestly confused, since you said it just a handful of posts ago
.
Jake was a turnover machine, much worse than Kyle actually. It was his signature throughout his time in Denver.
Canmore
10-22-2011, 10:19 PM
This is your problem, i never said he was a turnover machine in Denver. I said he was a turnover machine as a "player".
Jake did turn the ball over in Arizona. His career stats were TDS. 161. INT. 161. YDS. 29253. He was hugely improved in Denver.
Northman
10-22-2011, 10:21 PM
:confused: I'm honestly confused, since you said it just a handful of posts ago
.
I was still talking as a player Tned. By the way, 41 Ints isnt that much to brag about. :lol:
Dont even get me started on the Steeler/Rams games.
Jay did turn the ball over in Arizona. His career stats were TDS. 161. INT. 161. YDS. 29253. He was hugely improved in Denver.
Yep, but the statement made was about his time in Denver.
Watchthemiddle
10-22-2011, 10:22 PM
I miss Jake Plummer, but glad we now have Tebow.
I miss the days of being competitive with a Qb with heart that led us to the playoffs and now look forward to a new QB with heart to once again lead this team to the playoffs.
I miss the days of having the unconventional QB that did whatever it took to get the job done and just WIN and am now looking forward to having that same style of QB that is 30Lbs bigger, unconventional and will do whatever it takes to win a game.
The last time I was this excited to watch the broncos game was the AFCCG in 2006. Tomorrow let the excitement return...enough of the stale, boring, predictable Broncos...on with the new exciting, edge of your seat, win in the 4th quarter (if needed) Broncos to take the field.
I was still talking as a player Tned. By the way, 41 Ints isnt that much to brag about. :lol:
Dont even get me started on the Steeler/Rams games.
WTF, you said, during his time in Denver. Then you pull a Ravage and take a dig at me with the "that's your problem" crack.
If you made a mistake and misspoke, fine, but don't act like I put words in your mouth. We've disagreed and agreed enough over the years that we don't need to go down that road when we disagree on something.
Northman
10-22-2011, 10:32 PM
WTF, you said, during his time in Denver. Then you pull a Ravage and take a dig at me with the "that's your problem" crack.
If you made a mistake and misspoke, fine, but don't act like I put words in your mouth. We've disagreed and agreed enough over the years that we don't need to go down that road when we disagree on something.
And please dont start going all Topscribe on me. Im not taking a "dig" at you at all. Just clarifying my stance. The guy has a history of making some very poor decisions and was very careless with the football. Take ANY QB and put him on a much improved squad with a better coaching/scheme and of course they will improve to some degree. But simply shining up a turd doesnt make it gold.
And please dont start going all Topscribe on me. Im not taking a "dig" at you at all. Just clarifying my stance. The guy has a history of making some very poor decisions and was very careless with the football. Take ANY QB and put him on a much improved squad with a better coaching/scheme and of course they will improve to some degree. But simply shining up a turd doesnt make it gold.
The day I become like Top, I'll shoot myself, so **** you.
I responded to what you said, which had nothing to do with AZ, you said in Denver. Try typing what you mean, and then there won't be misunderstandings. You SAID, "Jake was a turnover machine, much worse than Kyle actually. It was his signature throughout his time in Denver." I responded to that. No place was there anything about his time as a "player." Let's repeat, "It was his signature throughout his time in Denver."
As I said earlier, you may have misspoke, not conveyed what you wanted to, but man up and say so rather than putting it on me for posting a fact in response to what YOU TYPED.
Anyway, it's not worth it, and it's my bad for coming back in the thread, because this is the problem with Jake threads, it makes otherwise reasonable people turn into emotional, ******* idiots -- regardless of which side of the debate they are on. Whether it's you, me, Ravage (ok, doesn't take Jake for him), or anyone else.
Tebow may be the most polarizing player in terms of media and national attention, but I don't think there has ever been a more polarizing player in terms of the fan base. Five years later, and not much has changed.
Northman
10-22-2011, 11:06 PM
The day I become like Top, I'll shoot myself, so **** you.
I know your riled up but that shit was funny. As you said before, this issue has been beat to death.
FanInAZ
10-22-2011, 11:36 PM
This quote from the article that started this thread tells me a lot about Plummer:
Plummer said initially he didn't want to go to or even sit through the meetings. He didn't give the playbook much of a look during the week of Cutler's first start — Dec. 3, 2006, against Seattle.
"Sometimes, I was like, you're going to bench me?" Plummer said. "I'm a competitor, and let's face it, I knew the offense. If they were going to put in 25 new plays for this rookie, that I hadn't run before, well then I feel sorry for him at that point, and I'm not going to learn them either. That was what I thought.
Read more: Jake Plummer feels Kyle Orton's pain after Broncos benching - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19169219#ixzz1bZmceXpy
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse
Whatever talent and other football intangible that he may have had, Plummer was a quitter.
BeefStew25
10-23-2011, 12:25 AM
Plummer hated adversity.
BroncoStud
10-23-2011, 01:01 AM
This is your problem, i never said he was a turnover machine in Denver. I said he was a turnover machine as a "player".
Jake developed into a good QB in Denver for several seasons. He also has done something that Orton will NEVER do... Win playoff games. Hell, he even led Arizona to a playoff win on the road back when they sucked.
shank
10-23-2011, 01:01 AM
jake plummer was and is a badass.
dogfish
10-23-2011, 01:41 AM
Plummer hated adversity.
like a preacher hates sin. . .
Bullgator
10-23-2011, 01:55 AM
Who the hell is Jake? :confused:
OOOhhh yea... he was the cat that single handedly gave my Gators a national title in 96... by first beating defending national champ Nabraska to get them out of the hunt and then choking a share of the NC away against Ohio St..
I love that guy, I owe him some thanks. That was our first NC ya know...
what was his name.. Jake the cake?... wake and bake Jake...no... IDK he rocks tho. Go Sun Devils!
DenBronx
10-23-2011, 02:41 AM
Plummer is 10x the QB Orton is.
The problem with Plummer is we got rid of Portis. It was the beggining of a really good offense then we traded him for Champ. Looking back, Mike should have just traded draft picks for Bailey and just kept Portis. That would have helped Plummer out even more. Yeah yeah I know all about Droughns, Tatum and Bell ect but Portis was a game breaker at that stage of his career.
Cutler > Plummer > Tebow > Griese > Brister > Kannel > Simms > Quinn > Brandstater > Weber > Orton
ChairmanBron
10-23-2011, 05:08 AM
Who the hell is Jake? :confused:
OOOhhh yea... he was the cat that single handedly gave my Gators a national title in 96... by first beating defending national champ Nabraska to get them out of the hunt and then choking a share of the NC away against Ohio St..
I love that guy, I owe him some thanks. That was our first NC ya know...
what was his name.. Jake the cake?... wake and bake Jake...no... IDK he rocks tho. Go Sun Devils!
He didn't lose that Ohio State Game, the Sun Devil defense lost it.
These Jake Threads are funny. Some love him, some hate him, and some get all bent out of shape and emotional.
Today I just yearn for days that we have a team at least as good as the 2005 squad that our former QB Jake had a major roll in it.
.
Ravage!!!
10-23-2011, 09:23 AM
Anyway, it's not worth it, and it's my bad for coming back in the thread, because this is the problem with Jake threads, it makes otherwise reasonable people turn into emotional, ******* idiots -- regardless of which side of the debate they are on. Whether it's you, me, Ravage (ok, doesn't take Jake for him), or anyone else.
Nice. Should I report this in for a CoC violation, or would that go anywhere?
Its funny, I thought we had moved on from the "hard feelings" of years ago at another web site.... guess thats only one of us. Good to know where we stand on that, though. :salute:
FlyByU
10-23-2011, 09:57 AM
Plummer was NOT a franchise QB. If you don't have a franchise QB, then you move on. If that guy isn't the franchise QB, then you move on.
You find a franchise QB in the Draft not FA and that is why we are not doing well because we have been going the FA way instead of building this team with good solid draft pick like it was when they built the team in the 70's & 80's also early 90's. IMO FA ruined the NFL.
Northman
10-23-2011, 10:02 AM
Today I just yearn for days that we have a team at least as good as the 2005 squad that our former QB Jake had a major roll in it.
Im yearning for the days of our championships.
BroncoJoe
10-23-2011, 10:12 AM
I liked Jake. Don't care what anyone else thinks.
Nice. Should I report this in for a CoC violation, or would that go anywhere?
Its funny, I thought we had moved on from the "hard feelings" of years ago at another web site.... guess thats only one of us. Good to know where we stand on that, though. :salute:
Hey buddy, you're the one that started with the personal cracks in this thread. I disagreed with you, but didn't start the zingers. You'd stepped up your game and not gone that route lately. Hope you get back to that good form, whether you agree or disagree with people.
As to reporting, that's your call. The mods handle reports, as I think you know, so anytime you feel I or anyone else did something wrong, you SHOULD report it.
Ravage!!!
10-23-2011, 10:26 AM
Hey buddy, you're the one that started with the personal cracks in this thread. I disagreed with you, but didn't start the zingers. You'd stepped up your game and not gone that route lately. Hope you get back to that good form, whether you agree or disagree with people.
As to reporting, that's your call. The mods handle reports, as I think you know, so anytime you feel I or anyone else did something wrong, you SHOULD report it.
Yeah... I guess that means you have "lowered" your game. No prob. It's been four years since the days of the old site. But then, some are able to move on and some aren't.
Yeah... I guess that means you have "lowered" your game. No prob. It's been four years since the days of the old site. But then, some are able to move on and some aren't.
Yep, I guess so. You have trouble moving on, hence this comment:
I have forgotten how defensive and over-reactive you got about this discussion. It's been a long time since I've seen this side of you.
So, you fell into your old form, I reponded in kind. We both were wrong, how about we move on?
It's perfectly fine to disagree on a subject without thowing the personal jabs. Wouldn't you agree?
rcsodak
10-23-2011, 01:33 PM
Hogwash. After he was replaced, he decided to retire. Something that shouldn't be surprising, since a number of team mates, including Jay, said that Jake had talked at the end of the season as if he was done -- contrary to the fans claiming he retired after the trade talk to Tampa started, because he was tired of competing.
It was reported over and over, by media and fellow Broncos, that Plummer wanted to leave the game while healthy & wealthy, and that football wasn't all he had or wanted, like so many other players.
Well, remember who you're talking to, T. The jake haters believe only what the voices in their heads tell them. Lol
I enjoyed watching jake. Anybody that says he was just there for the job didn't watch him, evidently. He threw his body around, and played with heart. Only to have shanny pull the rug out from underneath him. He improved his game exponentially, and LED the team to victories. Something this team has been missing since game 12 of that year. Them there are the facts.
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