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View Full Version : Why does Shanny like Teflon? (ready to be flamed for this)



Medford Bronco
12-29-2008, 02:13 PM
Why is Shanny have on a teflon jacket?:confused:

If I was preparing for a huge presentation at work and then
bascially stumbled all overmyself and looked like I started preparing
a half/hour before I was to speak, then I would either have a pay cut,
another job or be transferred out of my department etc.

Someone has to be accountable for a 17-20 record since Cutler took over.
Someone has to be accountable for no halftime adjustments on a weekly basis.

Also since 2002 I have not seen any team start seasons so promising (6-2 twice in 2002 and 2006 and 4-1 this year) and not make the playoffs!

Sorry but to me Shanny has lost his touch or is he just a great offensive mind that has no clue about defense and very mediocre in drafting.

I am ready to be flamed :target: :flame:

But as I said last night, The Broncos will go down with the 2007 Mets (sorry Tned) 1978 Red Sox and 1995 Angels as the biggest chokers of a lead in the last month of a season. It is a sad day that Denver could not take care of business at home like in the past last week. (4-4 at home is not good, remember at Old Mile High, this team from 1977-2000 was hardly ever worse that 5-3 with maybe one exception there)

Serious questions remain with this team

The defense has gotten worse and looked like an expansion team and even when healthy in the early part of the season they were putrid.

Slowbrain has no clue. He coached two good series vs Buffalo and then when
Denver was up 13 pts, he thought we could sit back and play almost a prevent. Pathetic.


I would only keep Shanny if he fired Slowbrain, hires a real GM and makes major changes in defensive philosophy and cuts about 75% of that unit.

Also get a real RB. Yes let Hillis have his shot but a good pounding RB that
could take pressure off of Cutler, could be a huge help to this offense that should not be throwing the ball 45 plus times each game.

Last night, why not run it some to try to keep SD off of the field?
We played right into their hands with that game plan.

Sorry for the long vent. I am ready to take my medicine and get flamed to the hills. Some here might agree with me but a lot will give Shanny the pass which is unfortnate because this team was mentally unprepared last night and looked beaten after SD took the lead 10-6.

G_Money
12-29-2008, 02:30 PM
Gotta fire Slowik.

I don’t need a GM – he might mess with the Goodmans and even with our issues in 07 I would say there’s not a team around that can match our last 3 drafts. Both OTs, starting OG, Pro Bowl QB and WR, best rookie WR in the league, starting TE, and a bunch of other guys?

Please. GMs have wet dreams about being as good at the draft as we’ve been recently, even with the moronic choices at the top of the 07 draft.

However, we still have shown no inkling of how to fix the free agent issues. Boss was a TERRIBLE pickup, because we knew he was injury prone and he’s just not that good any more. The safeties were as atrocious as some of us feared they would be. None of the FA wide receivers worked out.

We got Wiegmann, and thank God for that, but we had a decade to watch him play against us for KC and he came cheap. That’s not exactly a leap.

Add this year’s FA performance with our trades for DL and FA signing the last couple of years and it looks pretty damn gruesome.

Still, would I rather do worse in the draft and better in FA? No. So I’m willing to give Shanahan a little longer with the DC thing now that he’s halfway there.

But if Shanahan can’t or won’t fix the defense, and refuses to address our RB issues with more than scrubs, then his time may be up.

I don’t care how great your O is if you can’t win because of your D.

Dungy had that problem in Indy for a while but he eventually worked it out. Shanahan has gone through several QBs here trying to get the right guy, and now that he should have him in the fold, we’re supposed to wait 6 more years for him to get the defense right?

Shanahan might have a Dungy issue happen to him, where Tony got TB ready for Gruden to win a SB with Tony’s team.

The patience in Bronco-land – a playoff win in a decade – has been pretty good I would think.

But he’d better turn the D around fast. Keeping his idiot friend in power won’t help him.

You can only live off of former glory for so long.

Shanahan is not an inspirational coach, he’s a cerebral one. So our gameplans need to be better, and our player leaders and coaches need to be able to take up the slack from the head man in that department. Right now, they can’t.

Some people thought we were closer than we are. It should be pretty obvious right now that short of getting a LeBeau/Kiffin quality of DC in here we’re not exactly a year away.

That fallacy has finally died and been laid to rest.

If Shanahan keeps this up, he may join it in the discard pile.

~G

deacon
12-29-2008, 02:39 PM
The answer is pretty simple. Who's out there better? The only name I can even think of who's in Shanahan's class is Cowher and I don't think he wants to coach.
Mangini? Crennell? Marinelli? College? I just don't see anyone.

Medford Bronco
12-29-2008, 02:43 PM
The answer is pretty simple. Who's out there better? The only name I can even think of who's in Shanahan's class is Cowher and I don't think he wants to coach.
Mangini? Crennell? Marinelli? College? I just don't see anyone.

Good points but was John Harbough a great coach before this season?
What about Mike Smith in Atlanta?

How about Tony Sporano? The Fins were pathetic last season
and look what he did 1 win to 11.


All unknowns that did a great job!

It can be done.

G_Money
12-29-2008, 02:47 PM
Sparano’s doing fine down in Miami.

You don’t have to already be a 200 game winner to be a good head coach.

I don’t advocate ditching Shanahan, but if we were going to there are some fabulous DCs out there who might be able to fix that side of the team for us if we gave them the HC job. The Giants and the Titans employ two of them.

Also, call Pioli and give him the job of fixing the talent and see what happens.

There are not a lot of guys with the offensive mind and resume of Shanahan.

But that mind and resume are getting us exactly nowhere when it comes to fixing the defense, and there’s a reason the saying ISN’T “offense wins championships.”

Still, if Shanahan would stop being stubborn about the defense and get somebody in he could trust who was actually GOOD at his job, we might get somewhere.

C’mon.

~G

GEM
12-29-2008, 02:53 PM
Gotta fire Slowik.

I don’t need a GM – he might mess with the Goodmans and even with our issues in 07 I would say there’s not a team around that can match our last 3 drafts. Both OTs, starting OG, Pro Bowl QB and WR, best rookie WR in the league, starting TE, and a bunch of other guys?

Please. GMs have wet dreams about being as good at the draft as we’ve been recently, even with the moronic choices at the top of the 07 draft.

However, we still have shown no inkling of how to fix the free agent issues. Boss was a TERRIBLE pickup, because we knew he was injury prone and he’s just not that good any more. The safeties were as atrocious as some of us feared they would be. None of the FA wide receivers worked out.

We got Wiegmann, and thank God for that, but we had a decade to watch him play against us for KC and he came cheap. That’s not exactly a leap.

Add this year’s FA performance with our trades for DL and FA signing the last couple of years and it looks pretty damn gruesome.

Still, would I rather do worse in the draft and better in FA? No. So I’m willing to give Shanahan a little longer with the DC thing now that he’s halfway there.

But if Shanahan can’t or won’t fix the defense, and refuses to address our RB issues with more than scrubs, then his time may be up.

I don’t care how great your O is if you can’t win because of your D.

Dungy had that problem in Indy for a while but he eventually worked it out. Shanahan has gone through several QBs here trying to get the right guy, and now that he should have him in the fold, we’re supposed to wait 6 more years for him to get the defense right?

Shanahan might have a Dungy issue happen to him, where Tony got TB ready for Gruden to win a SB with Tony’s team.

The patience in Bronco-land – a playoff win in a decade – has been pretty good I would think.

But he’d better turn the D around fast. Keeping his idiot friend in power won’t help him.

You can only live off of former glory for so long.

Shanahan is not an inspirational coach, he’s a cerebral one. So our gameplans need to be better, and our player leaders and coaches need to be able to take up the slack from the head man in that department. Right now, they can’t.

Some people thought we were closer than we are. It should be pretty obvious right now that short of getting a LeBeau/Kiffin quality of DC in here we’re not exactly a year away.

That fallacy has finally died and been laid to rest.

If Shanahan keeps this up, he may join it in the discard pile.

~G

Does it matter how good our drafts have been if Shanny won't pull the trigger on no talent vets? The starters are pretty obvious choices as great rookie talent, but why does it take so long to get through Shanny's thick skull. Hillis should have been in long before he was. It's not like that kind of talent just came out the first week he started. Larsen, Woodyard, etc...these guys should be on the field. Open some veterans eyes that their job is NEVER guaranteed.

The We Play the Best Guy mentality was shown to be bs when they put Webster back in as starter. :tsk:

G_Money
12-29-2008, 02:57 PM
Does it matter how good our drafts have been if Shanny won't pull the trigger on no talent vets? The starters are pretty obvious choices as great rookie talent, but why does it take so long to get through Shanny's thick skull. Hillis should have been in long before he was. It's not like that kind of talent just came out the first week he started. Larsen, Woodyard, etc...these guys should be on the field. Open some veterans eyes that their job is NEVER guaranteed.

The We Play the Best Guy mentality was shown to be bs when they put Webster back in as starter. :tsk:

No kidding!

One of my biggest frustrations with Shanahan this year has been the rookies.

We went through something like 6 safeties before we got to Barrett, who while not yet GREAT is certainly as good or better than anyone who played the position all year.

Hillis couldn’t even get on the field as a FB when he was actually the best RB on the roster.

Woodyard killed it as a Will and Larsen was a nice improvement at Mike, but both lost their jobs to the vets who then led the defense to its epic collapse to finish the year.

For a man who is proud of his tradition of opening up starting spots to the Best Player and not the Biggest Contract (see TD’s meteoric rise up the depth chart) I don’t understand his reluctance to go with the kids this year when we were obviously struggling.

It was stubborn, and stupid, and if it cost us even one game then it cost us the division and the playoffs.

~G

GEM
12-29-2008, 03:00 PM
No kidding!

One of my biggest frustrations with Shanahan this year has been the rookies.

We went through something like 6 safeties before we got to Barrett, who while not yet GREAT is certainly as good or better than anyone who played the position all year.

Hillis couldn’t even get on the field as a FB when he was actually the best RB on the roster.

Woodyard killed it as a Will and Larsen was a nice improvement at Mike, but both lost their jobs to the vets who then led the defense to its epic collapse to finish the year.

For a man who is proud of his tradition of opening up starting spots to the Best Player and not the Biggest Contract (see TD’s meteoric rise up the depth chart) I don’t understand his reluctance to go with the kids this year when we were obviously struggling.

It was stubborn, and stupid, and if it cost us even one game then it cost us the division and the playoffs.

~G

Shanny loves his title...The Mastermind. I don't see how he doesn't get it. If he plays these late round or undrafted guys and they come out successful, he looks like a Mastermind. Putting them on the bench has made him look like he's lost touch with the game and his players. It's easy to blame talentless guys, but at some point the finger has to point at the guy who keeps picking up talentless guys, over paying them and putting them on the field.

East Coast Fan
12-29-2008, 03:57 PM
Awhile back I had a "how much patience do you think Bowlen has for Shanahan" thread and I'm still asking the question. Yes, I know that we had tons of injuries, and went through 2,000 running backs, and lost some defensive players (some who weren't really that good) but that excuse only goes so far. How many other teams do you think would have kept a coach on this long that has been on a slow downhill ride since the Super Bowl/Elway years? We had a couple of good seasons since then, (2005 in particular), but really nothing to show for it since then. When he first got here, he fixed the defense and paired with that loaded offense we did great, but lately he can't seem to do that at all. I don't see any changes coming from him, either, and really do believe that maybe his "glory days" have come and gone. Give someone else a try....


And I STILL say that we'd do pretty good with Wade Phillips as defensive co-ordinator again! :defense:

Northman
12-29-2008, 04:00 PM
Woodyard killed it as a Will and Larsen was a nice improvement at Mike, but both lost their jobs to the vets who then led the defense to its epic collapse to finish the year.


~G

That probably bothered me the most this year.

Medford Bronco
12-29-2008, 04:05 PM
That probably bothered me the most this year.


What bothered me the most was trying to kick a 54 yard fg in the cold vs Buffalo that changed that whole game. Prater is not good and proved it this year but that was not his fault

Being aggressive is good in spots, not stupid. Back Buffalo up inside the 20 and they most likely dont score a TD before the half. Dumb coaching really.

Sorry I am still in full fledged vent mode. My head hurts and I am wishing for some sleep now lol

Tned
12-29-2008, 05:11 PM
Good points but was John Harbough a great coach before this season?
What about Mike Smith in Atlanta?

How about Tony Sporano? The Fins were pathetic last season
and look what he did 1 win to 11.


All unknowns that did a great job!

It can be done.

It 'can' be done, but for everyone ONE of them, there are 10 or 15 or 20 head coaching candidates and 1 win teams that don't turn into 11 win teams. That is nearly unprecedented, which is why it is getting so much news.

You bring up Atlanta, so that is probably a great example/answer to your question about Shanahan's Teflon (TM) coat.

Since the '98 Super Bowl when the Broncos and Falcons met, here is the tale of the tape:

Heach Coaches
Broncos - 1
Falcons - 4 + 2 interim

W/L
Broncos - 91-69
Atlanta - 71-88

Playoffs
Broncos - 4 years, one AFCCG, 1-4 record
Atlanta - 2 years, one NFCCG, 2-2 record

Losing seasons:
Broncos - 2
Atlanta - 6

.500 seasons
Broncos - 2
Atlanta - 1

Winning Seasons
Broncos - 6
Atlanta - 3

Six worst seasons:
Broncos - 6, 7, 8, 8, 9, 9
Atlanta - 4, 4, 5, 5, 7, 7

It is real easy to look at Atlanta and say, "we should do what they did. Look at their head coach." However, the fact is that they have gone through multiple head coaches and have had losing seasons 6 of their last 10 seasons since meeting the Broncos in the Super Bowl.

Towards the end and after the '06 season, we heard crys from people on the boards about how we should be building like SF. How Shanahan should be fired, and we needed to learn from San Francisco -- how they were building through great drafts. The thing I pointed out at the time, was that it is much easier to build via the draft when you get high picks following 2 and 4 win seasons.

That aside, even after their 'break out' seven win season, they have followed it up with 5 and 7 win seasons, not so spectacular. In our same 10 year stretch, they have had two winning seasons, and 4 head coaches.

I could go on and on, and know that I often do. However, my point is that while me might be very frustrated right now by our three seaons of .500 football, most teams (and owners) realize that when your 'horrible', fan revolting seaons are .500, then your head coach is probably doing a pretty darn good job.

Medford Bronco
12-29-2008, 05:15 PM
It 'can' be done, but for everyone ONE of them, there are 10 or 15 or 20 head coaching candidates and 1 win teams that don't turn into 11 win teams. That is nearly unprecedented, which is why it is getting so much news.

You bring up Atlanta, so that is probably a great example/answer to your question about Shanahan's Teflon (TM) coat.

Since the '98 Super Bowl when the Broncos and Falcons met, here is the tale of the tape:

Heach Coaches
Broncos - 1
Falcons - 4 + 2 interim

W/L
Broncos - 91-69
Atlanta - 71-88

Playoffs
Broncos - 4 years, one AFCCG, 1-4 record
Atlanta - 2 years, one NFCCG, 2-2 record

Losing seasons:
Broncos - 2
Atlanta - 6

.500 seasons
Broncos - 2
Atlanta - 1

Winning Seasons
Broncos - 6
Atlanta - 3

Six worst seasons:
Broncos - 6, 7, 8, 8, 9, 9
Atlanta - 4, 4, 5, 5, 7, 7

It is real easy to look at Atlanta and say, "we should do what they did. Look at their head coach." However, the fact is that they have gone through multiple head coaches and have had losing seasons 6 of their last 10 seasons since meeting the Broncos in the Super Bowl.

Towards the end and after the '06 season, we heard crys from people on the boards about how we should be building like SF. How Shanahan should be fired, and we needed to learn from San Francisco -- how they were building through great drafts. The thing I pointed out at the time, was that it is much easier to build via the draft when you get high picks following 2 and 4 win seasons.

That aside, even after their 'break out' seven win season, they have followed it up with 5 and 7 win seasons, not so spectacular. In our same 10 year stretch, they have had two winning seasons, and 4 head coaches.

I could go on and on, and know that I often do. However, my point is that while me might be very frustrated right now by our three seaons of .500 football, most teams (and owners) realize that when your 'horrible', fan revolting seaons are .500, then your head coach is probably doing a pretty darn good job.


Good analysis Tned. Maybe some is venting but I hope that a lot changes on our defense and Cutler needs to grow up and be a leader. We shall see.

It does not matter what you, I or anyone says anyways. Its up to Bowlen and Shanny, who cant be happy right now after the last month of football.

lex
12-29-2008, 05:17 PM
Slowik is a sinking ship and Shanahan just jumped on it.

G_Money
12-29-2008, 05:24 PM
However, my point is that while me might be very frustrated right now by our three seaons of .500 football, most teams (and owners) realize that when your 'horrible', fan revolting seaons are .500, then your head coach is probably doing a pretty darn good job.

That depends on whether that’s the best you can expect, or the worst. For us right now, it's both. Worst is 7-9, best is 9-7. That's a Norv Turner team, not what the Broncos are supposed to be.

You’d think we’d be fine if we could just fix the D. After all, a decent D had us playing in the AFC championship game just a few seasons ago.

We’ve shown what we can do with a dynamic offense.

But this year showed that even a statistically great O can’t win ballgames by itself.

And while we were statistically great, we weren’t consistently great. Once we fix the running game that should change – running games bring more consistency to an offense.

But CAN Shanny fix the defense? Before he gave Slowik the Vote Of Confidence at the end of the season my thought was yes.

If he fires Slowik and hires one of the many, MANY competent DCs on the market I will still say yes. We don’t need our D to win us some 7-3 ballgames. We need it to hold guys under 20 points while the O goes for the over-30 mark. We need it to pressure the passer so we can get some turnovers that will compensate for Jay’s ballsy-ness.

But it doesn’t have to be an All-Decade D or anything.

If he sticks with Slowik through next year, though, I may have to start saying that no, Shanahan has reached the point where he won’t be getting much better than 9-7, 10-6, and a first round playoff exit.

It’s a testament to Shanahan that he can get weak rosters to be .500 and better every year, I suppose.

But he’s also the architect of those teams, from the coaching staffs to the players to the equipment managers.

If his teams are a crispy chocate shell with a gooey soft middle every year, that’s on him.

And if his incurable blind spots are free-agent pickups and defense, well…those are the very steps we need to master to take it to the next level.

We’ve hit the glass ceiling with what we’re doing now. Even a better running game isn’t gonna get us a bunch of playoff wins, just more regular-season ones.

If Shanahan can’t change what hasn’t worked and bust through that ceiling, then it doesn’t matter how much regular season success he’s had.

Sooner or later, he’ll have to take a long walk off a short pier, and turn it over to someone who can fix the issues.

~G

Tned
12-29-2008, 05:28 PM
Good analysis Tned. Maybe some is venting but I hope that a lot changes on our defense and Cutler needs to grow up and be a leader. We shall see.

It does not matter what you, I or anyone says anyways. Its up to Bowlen and Shanny, who cant be happy right now after the last month of football.

I'm just as frustrated as everyone. I really thought we would be a 10+ win team this season, and I thought we would go into SD and compete much better last night.

It's also easy to lose site of the fact that Cutler just finished his second full season, and third season period. That in his second season, he had the whole undiagnosed diabetese thing, which he has had to learn to live with and play with this year.

Rivers is a 5th year players, who sat for two years. Cutler's first two full starting seasons are similar two Rivers first two, yet Rivers was on a better team, and one with LT on it.

It wasn't until Brees' third and fourth full seasons (5th and 6th in the league) before he really blossomed. In his second one, he was benched in favor of Doug Flutie on several occaissions.

It's easy to lose site of the fact that it takes time for a young QB to develop, that most teams horrible seasons are much worse than .500.

Let's face it, 25+ years of Elway and Shanahan have us a bit spoiled.

One thing that someone pointed out last week, bears repeating. The 'Drive", Elway's coming out party, happened in his fourth year.

All things take time. Right now, the Broncos are in the midst of a complete retooling, which Shanahan is once again managing to do without having two and three win seasons like every other franchise experiences. However, we can expect it to happen overnight.

Medford Bronco
12-29-2008, 05:28 PM
That depends on whether that’s the best you can expect, or the worst. For us right now, it's both. Worst is 7-9, best is 9-7. That's a Norv Turner team, not what the Broncos are supposed to be.

You’d think we’d be fine if we could just fix the D. After all, a decent D had us playing in the AFC championship game just a few seasons ago.

We’ve shown what we can do with a dynamic offense.

But this year showed that even a statistically great O can’t win ballgames by itself.

And while we were statistically great, we weren’t consistently great. Once we fix the running game that should change – running games bring more consistency to an offense.

But CAN Shanny fix the defense? Before he gave Slowik the Vote Of Confidence at the end of the season my thought was yes.

If he fires Slowik and hires one of the many, MANY competent DCs on the market I will still say yes. We don’t need our D to win us some 7-3 ballgames. We need it to hold guys under 20 points while the O goes for the over-30 mark. We need it to pressure the passer so we can get some turnovers that will compensate for Jay’s ballsy-ness.

But it doesn’t have to be an All-Decade D or anything.

If he sticks with Slowik through next year, though, I may have to start saying that no, Shanahan has reached the point where he won’t be getting much better than 9-7, 10-6, and a first round playoff exit.

It’s a testament to Shanahan that he can get weak rosters to be .500 and better every year, I suppose.

But he’s also the architect of those teams, from the coaching staffs to the players to the equipment managers.

If his teams are a crispy chocate shell with a gooey soft middle every year, that’s on him.

And if his incurable blind spots are free-agent pickups and defense, well…those are the very steps we need to master to take it to the next level.

We’ve hit the glass ceiling with what we’re doing now. Even a better running game isn’t gonna get us a bunch of playoff wins, just more regular-season ones.

If Shanahan can’t change what hasn’t worked and bust through that ceiling, then it doesn’t matter how much regular season success he’s had.

Sooner or later, he’ll have to take a long walk off a short pier, and turn it over to someone who can fix the issues.

~G

G your posts are awesome man. :beer: spot on.

I hope Shanny sees the light and gets a new DC if Slowbrain is retained
we are on pace for a 6-10 season with that schedule. If house is cleaned maybe 9-10 wins with a good draft. We shall see. Lots of holes on defense and immaturity on offense at times as well.

Tned
12-29-2008, 05:48 PM
That depends on whether that’s the best you can expect, or the worst. For us right now, it's both. Worst is 7-9, best is 9-7. That's a Norv Turner team, not what the Broncos are supposed to be.

Well, some might think it is a little mistimed right now, but this is exactly whiy I wrote my 'birthright' post yesterday.

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29842

Truth be told, the 'only' reason we mistakenly believe we aren't supposed to go through stretches of .500 ball, is because of the incredible job that Shanahan has done the last 14 years, combined with 16 years of watching Elway drag teams to better records than they had any right to achieve.

There is not 'supposed to' in the NFL. Instead, there is luck, there are good coaches/GM's, but more times than not their are cyclical up and down cycles.

However, as Broncos fans, we have been very fortunate that in the last 25+ years, the Broncos have avoided any typical NFL rebuilding cycle. Having had to endure only one 5 win season in the early '90s and one 6 win season in the early '00s.

That's not a birthright -- something magically bestowed on the Broncos, but instead should be something as fans we should cherish, because through the good fortune of having Elway as our QB, and Shanahan for the last 14 years, we have not had to endure the lean years that EVERY other NFL franchise's fans endure every 5-10 or so years.

MasterShake
12-29-2008, 05:52 PM
G your posts are awesome man. :beer: spot on.

I hope Shanny sees the light and gets a new DC if Slowbrain is retained
we are on pace for a 6-10 season with that schedule. If house is cleaned maybe 9-10 wins with a good draft. We shall see. Lots of holes on defense and immaturity on offense at times as well.

I think next year will be the first year in my memory since the Super Bowl days that I'm content with the offense. Our O-line, QB, WR Core, TE are fantastic and we just need a reliable (not great) RB. Its actually kind of nice that we can focus all our attention to the Defense for once and not have to worry about getting another WR or something. Man, if we could just get a middle of the pack defense (holding teams to around 20 pts or below) we could be a good wildcard team, maybe even take the division. I still think we are close, but we have some housecleaning to do for sure!

SmilinAssasSin27
12-29-2008, 06:15 PM
Current defensive woes aside, Shanny brought this team 2 rings. None of us would have ever recovered has Elway retired w/o winning the big one. Shanny was responsible for Elway's legacy being finalized. For that, he has earned the right to lead this team until he is ready to step down. People lose perspective sometimes. Ya don't win the SB every year. before Shanny, we hadn't won any. And it's not like we've been horrible. We were in the AFCCG 3 years ago and on the brink of playoffs since. There are no 3-13 records even w/ all the bitching about personnel you people do. I say he's untouchable. JMHO.

Tned
12-29-2008, 06:21 PM
G your posts are awesome man. :beer: spot on.

I hope Shanny sees the light and gets a new DC if Slowbrain is retained
we are on pace for a 6-10 season with that schedule. If house is cleaned maybe 9-10 wins with a good draft. We shall see. Lots of holes on defense and immaturity on offense at times as well.

There is no question that the defense has holes to fill, but I guess being a half glass full guy, I tend to look at the incredible side of our offense.

How many other third year QBs have been asked to pass the ball 620 or so times, and actually wound up with a positive TD/INT ratio? With 4500 yards? I doubt there are many, if any that have. This team basically abandoned their running game after Hillis went down, and when they have run the last few weeks, they have done it without a FB, running TB out of a single back set.

Think of it this way, they work all off season and during training camp implementing an offense. Then, when the season rolls around, it is very effective, but the new/young offensive line is awesome in pass protection, but hadn't quite mastered the run game. In time that will come, or at least that's what the 'experts' say -- that it takes longer to mesh in the run game, than pass protection.

Then, running backs start dropping like flies, and you have to start moving more and more towards a pass only offense.

In his third season, second full season, Cutler had to attempt more passes than any other Denver QB. More than Elway ever attempted in a season. As bad as the Broncos run games were in the Elway years, only once did Elway attempt more than 551 passes, it ironically was in his third year as well, and it was 605 attempts, a few less than Cutler this year.

However, let's compare the two:
617 497
Elway 327/605 54% 3891 yards 22/23 (TD/INT) 70.2 QB Rating
Cutler 384/616 62.3% 4526 yards 25/18 86 QB Rating

In '85, Denver rushed 497 times and gained 1851 yards.
In '08, Denver rushed 387 times and gained 1862 yards.

So, while both teams gained roughly the same number of yards rushing, Cutler was asked to pass on 61.4% of the plays, vs. Elway on 54.9% of the plays.

That 6.5% might not seem like much of a difference, but it is pretty significant. In '85, the Broncos had would would be considered a 'balanced' offense, slightly more pass than run plays (all but a few teams pass more than 50% of the time), where this year the Broncos were extremely lopsided passing over 60% of the time.

Last year, in what would be considered a "pass heavy" Shanahan offense, the Broncos passed the ball 54.6% of the time.

So, there is no question that the offense has some maturing to do. They are young. Cutler, Marshall and Scheffler are third year players. Royal, Clady and Hillis are rookies. Harris a 2nd year player, first year starter. Kuper is what a 3rd year player, 2nd year starter?

This is a very young offense, that when the RBs started dropping like flies, were asked to pass at a rate and with a success that no other Broncos team in history has achieved. For the most part, they did it in amazing fashion.

What it comes down to is the defense. As G and others have said, Shanahan had two approaches. One, was to go and try and get a 'proven' defensive coordinator that is available (seems like a bit of an oxy-moron, why are they available if they are proven, but some are failed head coaches, that might be willing to go back to being DCs), or try and retool and stick with Slowick.

Only time will tell if the route he is choosing is correct, but regardless, it's important to look at how this offense was completely turned over and retooled since the AFCCG blowout, while staying a .500 club (how many other teams have manged that?).

GEM
12-29-2008, 06:24 PM
Current defensive woes aside, Shanny brought this team 2 rings. None of us would have ever recovered has Elway retired w/o winning the big one. Shanny was responsible for Elway's legacy being finalized. For that, he has earned the right to lead this team until he is ready to step down. People lose perspective sometimes. Ya don't win the SB every year. before Shanny, we hadn't won any. And it's not like we've been horrible. We were in the AFCCG 3 years ago and on the brink of playoffs since. There are no 3-13 records even w/ all the bitching about personnel you people do. I say he's untouchable. JMHO.

Just a question, but just how long does 2 SB's 10 years ago buy you of being untouchable?

I tend to agree with you, but I'm starting to see where everyone else is coming from.

SmilinAssasSin27
12-29-2008, 06:31 PM
Just a question, but just how long does 2 SB's 10 years ago buy you of being untouchable?

I tend to agree with you, but I'm starting to see where everyone else is coming from.

in my view...eternal


Then again, I'm from PA where JoePA is king. I think people who create things earn the right to say whe they are done with it.

SmilinAssasSin27
12-29-2008, 06:39 PM
Call me a homer, but I am of the opinion that no other Super Bowl Championship has ever meant more to a franchise than SB 32 meant to Denver. The first is always the sweetest, but to add the fact that Elway's failures were so visible and documented, made that game all the more important. NOBODY thought he would ever win it. Nobody outside of Denver anyways. No other team/player has ever been thru more turmoil leading up to it's first championship. Sure, P Manning's legacy was coming into question, but he didn't have the 3 SB BLOWOUTS behind him. Nor did he have the "I don't want to play there" hatred on his back. It was Elway (and the Broncos) vs the world at times...and he came thru...because of TD and because of Mike Shanahan. So forgive me if I'm a bit nostalgic, but I guarantee that NO TRUE DENVER FAN has ever felt as good as when Denver won that SB...and you never will. Even if Shanny is fired and the next coach wins 3 SBs, it'll never live up. Shanny played a HUGE role in that feeling. Seriously...think back to the moment Elway did his helicopter, or when TD split the red sea or when Mobley knocked down that pass...have you ever been happier in regards to sports?

Tned
12-29-2008, 06:41 PM
Just a question, but just how long does 2 SB's 10 years ago buy you of being untouchable?

I tend to agree with you, but I'm starting to see where everyone else is coming from.

It's an impossible question to answer, but here is one way to look at it. There are only 8 teams, of which the Broncos are one, that can even ask that question, since only 8 teams have won the SB in the last 10 years.

The fans of 24 teams haven't watched their team win the SB in the last 10 years.

The fans of 20 teams haven't watched their team win the SB in the last 20 years.

Tha fans of 17 teams haven't had their team even play in the SB in the last 10 years, and 12 teams haven't watched their team in the SB in the last 20 years.

We are lucky, spoiled, out of touch with NFL reality... You choose the description that fits, but in my book Shanny has still done one hell of a job, when I look around the league at all the other clubs over the last 14 years.

GEM
12-29-2008, 07:23 PM
It's an impossible question to answer, but here is one way to look at it. There are only 8 teams, of which the Broncos are one, that can even ask that question, since only 8 teams have won the SB in the last 10 years.

The fans of 24 teams haven't watched their team win the SB in the last 10 years.

The fans of 20 teams haven't watched their team win the SB in the last 20 years.

Tha fans of 17 teams haven't had their team even play in the SB in the last 10 years, and 12 teams haven't watched their team in the SB in the last 20 years.

We are lucky, spoiled, out of touch with NFL reality... You choose the description that fits, but in my book Shanny has still done one hell of a job, when I look around the league at all the other clubs over the last 14 years.

Well T, when ya put it that way....

:D
Thanks!

Tned
12-29-2008, 07:44 PM
Well T, when ya put it that way....

:D
Thanks!

:D As I have said, I am as dissapointed and frustrated as anyone, I just try and put it in the perspective of how our fandom relates to other team's fans.

Take all the folks around me that are Cowboy's fans. My cousins and friends are Cowboy's fans. While there were a lot before, once Jerry Jones (Arkansas guy) bought the Cowboys, everyone became Cowboy fans.

After being America's darlings in the late 70's early 80's, they became dismal in the mid to late 80's, during the 25 year stretch I keep talking about in regards to our 'great' fortune as fans.

So, they are dismal in the late 80's, with 5 straight losing seasons, including a 1 and 3 win season. They pull a masterful trade with Minnesotta, trading Hershall walker for something like 7 picks, and with those get Emmit Smith and Irvin, or maybe Aikman (I can't remember which they got with the Vikings picks vs. their own).

Then in the early/mid '90s, they are dominant, and win something like three Super Bowls, maybe four. Then, once again, they fall on tough times. From '97 to 2004, they only have two winning seasons, and two .500 seasons, to go with five losing seasons (three 5 win seasons and two 6 win seasons).

Now, after going through another stretch of fan hell, they think Parcells is going to raise them from the ashes to another dynasty, but they wind up with three 9 win seasons, and one 13 win seasons, two playoff berths and no playoff wins.

So, since the Cowboy's SB win in '95, they have:

Had 5 different head coaches:
Had 5 losing seasons (all six or fewer wins)
Had 5 playoff appearances (1-5 record)
Had 7 winning seasons and 6 losing/.500 seasons.

One of the reasons our expectations are so high, is because what Shanahan has done over the last 14 years is pretty amazing, in terms of putting a competitive team on the field every year.

Mike
12-29-2008, 08:39 PM
One of the reasons our expectations are so high, is because what Shanahan has done over the last 14 years is pretty amazing, in terms of putting a competitive team on the field every year.

Competitive team? We saw that competitiveness last night. ;)

The way we lost, the way we continue to lose every year, is completely unacceptable. To say that "well, look at these guys...it could be worse" is not acceptable in my opinion. We are still in the same spot at the end of the year as those other teams.

I know you guys love the guy and are loyal to him for what he has accomplished as our coach. But good grief, how many years of mediocrity, of the same collaspes, of the "we are only one/two guys away", of the piss poor defense, of the lack of fire/motivation from the players, of the thousand of other excuses we have had over the years will it take?

Tned
12-29-2008, 08:47 PM
Competitive team? We saw that competitiveness last night. ;)

The way we lost, the way we continue to lose every year, is completely unacceptable. To say that "well, look at these guys...it could be worse" is not acceptable in my opinion. We are still in the same spot at the end of the year as those other teams.

I know you guys love the guy and are loyal to him for what he has accomplished as our coach. But good grief, how many years of mediocrity, of the same collaspes, of the "we are only one/two guys away", of the piss poor defense, of the lack of fire/motivation from the players, of the thousand of other excuses we have had over the years will it take?

I don't know, ask Dallas fans, or Bengals fans, or Niners fans, or Packers fans, or any of the other fans of team that won SBs in the last 20 years, and are now frustrated that their team hasn't gotten back again.

It's not about loving the guy, it's about realizing that what he has accomplished is very impressive.

A competitive is a team that can win any week, and has a chance to get to the playoffs. Clearly we have had that type of team far more times under Shanahan than not, and more than virtually every other franchise during the last 14 years.

Sometimes I wish we would go through two or three years of 2 or 3 win seasons (or 1 win), so that fans would better appreciate what being .500 and above really means.

Mike
12-29-2008, 09:07 PM
I don't know, ask Dallas fans, or Bengals fans, or Niners fans, or Packers fans, or any of the other fans of team that won SBs in the last 20 years, and are now frustrated that their team hasn't gotten back again.

It's not about loving the guy, it's about realizing that what he has accomplished is very impressive.

A competitive is a team that can win any week, and has a chance to get to the playoffs. Clearly we have had that type of team far more times under Shanahan than not, and more than virtually every other franchise during the last 14 years.

Sometimes I wish we would go through two or three years of 2 or 3 win seasons (or 1 win), so that fans would better appreciate what being .500 and above really means.

Great...how many playoff games has he won since 1998? How many playoff games have the Chiefs, Cowboys, Bengals, 49ers, Raiders won in that same time span? What does that tell you? I appreciate the guy and what he has accomplished. It is impressive. But I see the same problems this year that I have seen every year for the last 6-7 years with no improvement. That is unacceptable and an impressive history or fielding a "competitive team" does nothing to change it.

And while Denver does have a chance to win every weekend (except when playing the Colts/Chargers), so does the team playing against the Broncos.

Tned
12-29-2008, 09:53 PM
Great...how many playoff games has he won since 1998? How many playoff games have the Chiefs, Cowboys, Bengals, 49ers, Raiders won in that same time span? What does that tell you? I appreciate the guy and what he has accomplished. It is impressive. But I see the same problems this year that I have seen every year for the last 6-7 years with no improvement. That is unacceptable and an impressive history or fielding a "competitive team" does nothing to change it.

And while Denver does have a chance to win every weekend (except when playing the Colts/Chargers), so does the team playing against the Broncos.

Well, I do see differences from the last 6-7 years. I see a completely retooled offense that is on the verge of being one of the best in the NFL (it was already this year in terms of yards gained, just not points scored -- blame the RB injuries for that).

I see a few promising young guys on defense, but the need for upgrades in 4-5 positions (DE, S, MLB, SLB) in order to be competitive on that side of the ball.

Shazam!
12-29-2008, 11:35 PM
Dan Reeves never won a Championship with the Broncos, but he fielded some competitive teams that were pretty good including 3 AFC Champions. He was fired after an 8-8 season, that was largely due to John Elway's injury in 1992.

Wade Phillips was his replacement (Shanahan was the first choice) for 1993. While the Offense was improved and Elway had one of his best years then, the defense went from bad to worse (dead last in the League,) and Phillips was fired after going 9-7 and 7-9, and one Playoff loss to LA (Oakland) where Jeff Hostetler looked like, well, John Elway.

24-24 over a three year span was unacceptable back then.
Now 24-24 has become acceptable under Shanahan now.

Mike Shanahan came to a team filled with holes but they had talent in spots, who's leader was a superstar QB. He turned the Broncos into what was then called an 'NFC style' team with the West Coast Offense, power running game, and a solid, attacking defense. The Broncos were with the times back then, but now they are not. The NFL has evolved since then and so has the whole AFC, and the Broncos have not. KC and Oakland won't be awful forever either.

The Broncos stagnant mediocrity has rubbed off on the fans. Like the Thread made by TNed (no offense bro I got mad respect) 'Winning isn't a Birthright.' I don't expect the Broncos to win a Championship every year. I want to see them play hard, beat teams they're supposed to beat and play with pride. I don't expect them to win every game. All I can hope for is that they play solid football... Have they? Not on defense, even the basic fundamentals aren't there. Denver's newfound mediocrity has been accepted by the fans, and that is not good. Last Season, CBS went away from the Broncos game because they were getting shellacked so badly. Over 20 years watching the Broncos, I have never seen a network do that. It's embarrassing.

Even the NY Jets, who haven't won a Championship in over 30 years, fired their Coach today for losing the Division after leading it for 11 weeks and not making the Playoffs. Jerry Jones, the Cowboys owner who most people can't stand, realizes his team's 9-7 finish is unacceptable. If the Patriots went 24-24, would they keep Bill Bellichick? No. Why has it become acceptable for the Broncos to be mediocre and SD's yearly whipping boy, when they won't win anything themselves? It reminds me a lot of the days of the Oakland/LA Raiders vs. Denver, when even Al Davis proclaimed aloud in public, 'They're (Denver) scared to death of us.' teams are showing Denver no respect, and it is sadly deserving.

Once upon a time not too long ago, this was thought to be one of the elite franchises in the NFL, an example for other teams to strive to mirror. A team full of history with a winning tradition. That has changed. This tradition has somehow been diluted under Shanahan's stagnant leadership. Back in the 90's when Shanahan first took over, motivation, leadership and example wasn't hard to find. This was John Elway's team. Later on, when the remnants of the Championship teams were gone, Rod Smith provided the leadership and example. Who does that today? This team has none under Shanahan. He isn't a motivator.

Shanahan's ego was so big, he dismantled a 13-3 team, who was his best team in the post-Elway era. I was never a fan of Jake Plummer's mistake-prone play. I hated his arrival in Denver and threw up my hands. I was delighted with the pick of Cutler and I think he has a brilliant future. But Shanahan totally betrayed Jake after his best season as a pro and literally killed his career and destroyed his confidence. That's how you treat your 13-3 QB? WTF? Who does that?

Bill Parcells has turned around 3 (yes, THREE) 1-15 teams into Playoff teams in one season. There is no reason to believe Mike Shanahan can ever do that. Ever.

I know I know, people say there is nobody out there to replace him with. Look at the crop of Playoff teams out there this season. There are a few first year coaches and second year coaches. People used to say Tom Coughlin was a crappy Coach, but he is a favorite to lead the NY Giants to their second Super Bowl.

I am truly grateful for what Mike Shanahan has given the Broncos and John Elway in 97-98. But enough is enough, that was 10 years ago. The world has changed and so has the NFL. The defense is an embarrassment, Denver needs a feature Back desperately and they need a new regime of conditioning to avoid these catastrphic injuries. His job has to be on the line in 2009. Produce a Playoff team or resign.

SmilinAssasSin27
12-29-2008, 11:48 PM
Dan Reeves never won a Championship with the Broncos, but he fielded some competitive teams that were pretty good including 3 AFC Champions. He was fired after an 8-8 season, that was largely due to John Elway's injury in 1992.

Wade Phillips was his replacement (Shanahan was the first choice) for 1993. While the Offense was improved and Elway had one of his best years then, the defense went from bad to worse (dead last in the League,) and Phillips was fired after going 9-7 and 7-9, and one Playoff loss to LA (Oakland) where Jeff Hostetler looked like, well, John Elway.

24-24 over a three year span was unacceptable back then.
Now 24-24 has become acceptable under Shanahan now.

Mike Shanahan came to a team filled with holes but they had talent in spots, who's leader was a superstar QB. He turned the Broncos into what was then called an 'NFC style' team with the West Coast Offense, power running game, and a solid, attacking defense. The Broncos were with the times back then, but now they are not. The NFL has evolved since then and so has the whole AFC, and the Broncos have not. KC and Oakland won't be awful forever either.

The Broncos stagnant mediocrity has rubbed off on the fans. Like the Thread made by TNed (no offense bro I got mad respect) 'Winning isn't a Birthright.' I don't expect the Broncos to win a Championship every year. I want to see them play hard, beat teams they're supposed to beat and play with pride. I don't expect them to win every game. All I can hope for is that they play solid football... Have they? Not on defense, even the basic fundamentals aren't there. Denver's newfound mediocrity has been accepted by the fans, and that is not good. Last Season, CBS went away from the Broncos game because they were getting shellacked so badly. Over 20 years watching the Broncos, I have never seen a network do that. It's embarrassing.

Even the NY Jets, who haven't won a Championship in over 30 years, fired their Coach today for losing the Division after leading it for 11 weeks and not making the Playoffs. Jerry Jones, the Cowboys owner who most people can't stand, realizes his team's 9-7 finish is unacceptable. If the Patriots went 24-24, would they keep Bill Bellichick? No. Why has it become acceptable for the Broncos to be mediocre and SD's yearly whipping boy, when they won't win anything themselves? It reminds me a lot of the days of the Oakland/LA Raiders vs. Denver, when even Al Davis proclaimed aloud in public, 'They're (Denver) scared to death of us.' teams are showing Denver no respect, and it is sadly deserving.

Once upon a time not too long ago, this was thought to be one of the elite franchises in the NFL, an example for other teams to strive to mirror. A team full of history with a winning tradition. That has changed. This tradition has somehow been diluted under Shanahan's stagnant leadership. Back in the 90's when Shanahan first took over, motivation, leadership and example wasn't hard to find. This was John Elway's team. Later on, when the remnants of the Championship teams were gone, Rod Smith provided the leadership and example. Who does that today? This team has none under Shanahan. He isn't a motivator.

Shanahan's ego was so big, he dismantled a 13-3 team, who was his best team in the post-Elway era. I was never a fan of Jake Plummer's mistake-prone play. I hated his arrival in Denver and threw up my hands. I was delighted with the pick of Cutler and I think he has a brilliant future. But Shanahan totally betrayed Jake after his best season as a pro and literally killed his career and destroyed his confidence. That's how you treat your 13-3 QB? WTF? Who does that?

Bill Parcells has turned around 3 (yes, THREE) 1-15 teams into Playoff teams in one season. There is no reason to believe Mike Shanahan can ever do that. Ever.

I know I know, people say there is nobody out there to replace him with. Look at the crop of Playoff teams out there this season. There are a few first year coaches and second year coaches. People used to say Tom Coughlin was a crappy Coach, but he is a favorite to lead the NY Giants to their second Super Bowl.

I am truly grateful for what Mike Shanahan has given the Broncos and John Elway in 97-98. But enough is enough, that was 10 years ago. The world has changed and so has the NFL. The defense is an embarrassment, Denver needs a feature Back desperately and they need a new regime of conditioning to avoid these catastrphic injuries. His job has to be on the line in 2009. Produce a Playoff team or resign.

Mangini was fired for 1 reason and 1 reason only. The owner is dumb enough to think Favre can still play and Favre doesn't like being held accountable by the coach. If the Jets have any chance of Favre returning, Mangini had to go. NYJ are raping the fans w/ the new seating license prices. They need Favre's name on the roster.

Mike
12-29-2008, 11:51 PM
Well, I do see differences from the last 6-7 years. I see a completely retooled offense that is on the verge of being one of the best in the NFL (it was already this year in terms of yards gained, just not points scored -- blame the RB injuries for that).

I see a few promising young guys on defense, but the need for upgrades in 4-5 positions (DE, S, MLB, SLB) in order to be competitive on that side of the ball.

A retooled offense that has done what for the team and getting the team to the playoffs? I am sorry, but 16th ranked offense isn't exactly on the verge of being one of the best. It is what it is and what it has been for several years...an offense that gets yards but can't get points.

We can keep coming up with and accepting excuses or we can face the facts...we have 10 years of facts to look at.

I was willing to put up with the excuses for one more year...until I saw what I saw last night and until I heard that he is sticking with the most pitiful excuse for a d-coordinator in the league. Not anymore.

What will it take for Shanahan supporters to say enough is enough? Over the last 10 years we have made the playoffs 4 times? Won 1 playoff game. Won 1 Division Championship. Over that period of time we have seen crappy defense after crappy defense culminating in the travesty that crapped all over the field last night...offenses that put up yards but not points. It has not changed a bit. So what more does it take to lose faith in Shanahan?

Shazam!
12-30-2008, 02:40 AM
Don Corleone, Farve's future is up in the air here from what is going around. He is doing what he has been doing for the past three seasons, holding his team hostage with his future.

The point is, the way the NY Jets finished was unacceptable to ownership, but somehow a collapse that is 10x WORSE, in a division 10x worse than the AFC East is.

Tned
12-30-2008, 03:06 AM
A retooled offense that has done what for the team and getting the team to the playoffs? I am sorry, but 16th ranked offense isn't exactly on the verge of being one of the best. It is what it is and what it has been for several years...an offense that gets yards but can't get points.

We can keep coming up with and accepting excuses or we can face the facts...we have 10 years of facts to look at.

I was willing to put up with the excuses for one more year...until I saw what I saw last night and until I heard that he is sticking with the most pitiful excuse for a d-coordinator in the league. Not anymore.

What will it take for Shanahan supporters to say enough is enough? Over the last 10 years we have made the playoffs 4 times? Won 1 playoff game. Won 1 Division Championship. Over that period of time we have seen crappy defense after crappy defense culminating in the travesty that crapped all over the field last night...offenses that put up yards but not points. It has not changed a bit. So what more does it take to lose faith in Shanahan?

Well, a couple responses.

First, while we might have been 16th in points, the season started (first three games) with us on pace to set the NFL points record. In the past we have moved the ball, but I don't think there has been a time since Elway when we had an offense like this -- a second ranked offense in total yards. It is impossible to know what impact putting all those RB's on injured reserve had, but since it forced Bates to start calling different play, often within the course of the game, it is fair to say that the lack of the running backs effected us in the red zone and therefore effected our scoring.

Second, how many teams out there have had more than 4 playoff appearances in the last 10 years?

Third, the age old, "who's better" question. Do we go out and pickup mangini, crenell, the SF coach that was fired? Short of Cowher wanting the job, which fired HC to we go after? Which OC do we roll the dice on to see if he is HC material?

Fourth, in the NFl, cycles between winning stretches, and especially SB appearances/wins are typically pretty long. Take the Giants, they won in '86, '90 and '07, and I believe lost in 2000 or 2001. So, they made it about once every 8-10 years, which is about as good as it gets in the NFL. Few, if any other team has gotten to the SB with as much frequency, excluding the mini dynasties (SF multiple wins, Cowboys Multiple wins, Denver multiple wins, Patriots recent dynasty).

For a team to go three years without making the playoffs, while rebuilding it's team is not at all unusual. What is unusual is to manage to get 7, 9 and 8 wins while doing it. In a lot of ways, it would have been better if we had the typical 3, 1, 5 win seasons during the non-playoff years, because then it would 'feel' more like a typical rebuilding period, and fans could say, ok, we suck now, but once we rebuild we will be back.

For me personally, it has nothing to do with some kind of blind faith thing with Shanahan, but instead it is looking around the NFL and realizing that every other team goes through long stretches without winning in the playoffs or getting to the SB. The only differences is they aren't usually at or above .500 during those stretches, which is what Shanahan has managed to accomplish.

Tned
12-30-2008, 03:21 AM
Don Corleone, Farve's future is up in the air here from what is going around. He is doing what he has been doing for the past three seasons, holding his team hostage with his future.

The point is, the way the NY Jets finished was unacceptable to ownership, but somehow a collapse that is 10x WORSE, in a division 10x worse than the AFC East is.

And look how successful the management decisions of the NYJ's have been. Since the Broncos beat the Jets in the '98 AFCCG, the Jets have:

Had 4 head coaches
Two 4 win seasons
One 6 win seasons
Six winning seasons

They have made it to the playoffs 4 times with a 2-4 record.

Over the last four seasons (three under Mangini) they are 27 and 37

So, while I agree that it would appear that the Jets collapse, combined with manginis 23-25 record, combined with a 4 win season last year, combined with a retiring QB and no sure fire replacement, led the Jets to fire him.

However, whether that was a right or wrong decision, I think we should be careful to hold up the Jets decision to fire head coaches as a guidepost for the Broncos. As indicated above, there revolving door in regard to head coaches has not proven very successful.

Shazam!
12-30-2008, 03:25 AM
...and since then TNed, the Broncos are 1-4 in the Playoffs and the Jets 2-4...


The Raiders and the Falcons have more Playoff wins than the Broncos since 1999.

Sad. Very sad.

Tned
12-30-2008, 03:33 AM
...and since then TNed, the Broncos are 1-4 in the Playoffs and the Jets 2-4...


The Raiders and the Falcons have more Playoff wins than the Broncos since 1999.

Sad. Very sad.

And the Falcons have two 4 win seasons, two 5 win seasons and two 6 win seasons.

The Raiders are 24 - 72 since their last playoff win.

So, are you saying you would rather be like the Raiders? Like the Falcolns?

It's easy to pick a 'highlight' or two from any given franchise and say "see, why don't we do that".

This year, it's Atlanta and Miami. They have new coaches, and they are in the Playoffs. Ok, what about all the other NFL teams that got new coaches over the last 3 or 4 years, how many of them had turn arounds like Miami and Atlanta?

How many teams in NFL history went from 1 win to the playoffs in consecutive seasons?

More importantly, when these franchises are held up as models, or as examples of why Shanahan should be replaced, people seem to forget that the reason these franchises had their head coaches replaced (typically 3-4 head coaches over the last 8-14 years), is because they have been losing year after year.

LordTrychon
12-30-2008, 03:44 AM
And the Falcons have two 4 win seasons, two 5 win seasons and two 6 win seasons.

The Raiders are 24 - 72 since their last playoff win.

So, are you saying you would rather be like the Raiders? Like the Falcolns?

It's easy to pick a 'highlight' or two from any given franchise and say "see, why don't we do that".

This year, it's Atlanta and Miami. They have new coaches, and they are in the Playoffs. Ok, what about all the other NFL teams that got new coaches over the last 3 or 4 years, how many of them had turn arounds like Miami and Atlanta?

How many teams in NFL history went from 1 win to the playoffs in consecutive seasons?

More importantly, when these franchises are held up as models, or as examples of why Shanahan should be replaced, people seem to forget that the reason these franchises had their head coaches replaced (typically 3-4 head coaches over the last 8-14 years), is because they have been losing year after year.

Tned... I've always had a hard time following the mindset of firing Shanahan for his 'subpar' seasons.

But when you go and put this kind of perspective on it, how am I supposed to ever buy into it?

:tsk:

Tned
12-30-2008, 03:53 AM
Tned... I've always had a hard time following the mindset of firing Shanahan for his 'subpar' seasons.

But when you go and put this kind of perspective on it, how am I supposed to ever buy into it?

:tsk:

Sometimes I wish Bowlen would fire Shanahan just so us Broncos fans could look badk after five or so years and realize how good we had it. When we start to have to endure what seahawk fans and niner fans and raider and chiefs and bears and vikings and packers and bengals and cardinals and rams and lions and dolphins and falcons and cowboys and redksins and....

Well, you get the point. Sometimes I wish that Bowlen would just do it, so that in short order we would begin to understand how the other half (or in this case, the other 31/32nds) live.

However, as a Broncos fan, I really can't buy into cutting off my nose to spite my face.

LordTrychon
12-30-2008, 03:58 AM
Sometimes I wish Bowlen would fire Shanahan just so us Broncos fans could look badk after five or so years and realize how good we had it. When we start to have to endure what seahawk fans and niner fans and raider and chiefs and bears and vikings and packers and bengals and cardinals and rams and lions and dolphins and falcons and cowboys and redksins and....

Well, you get the point. Sometimes I wish that Bowlen would just do it, so that in short order we would begin to understand how the other half (or in this case, the other 31/32nds) live.

However, as a Broncos fan, I really can't buy into cutting off my nose to spite my face.

I've had the same thought... I'd think maybe of letting Shanny just take 2 seasons off just to relax... but not when we've just landed Gold in a potentially great Franchise QB.

Shanny wouldn't do it anyway... he wouldn't want to leave the team and not know what he had to come back to.

He's a workhorse.

Edit: Nose/face... perfect comment.

East Coast Fan
12-30-2008, 10:02 AM
Just a few thoughts: Sure, when he arrived here in the 90's (or when he returned here), he brought in Neil Smith, Keith Traylor, Alfred Williams, Darrien Gordon, etc. and made the defense a pretty good defense-not great, but certainly better than the last few seasons. He has tried to "fix" the present day defense with guys like Sam Adams, Dre Bly, etc. but for some reason(s) he can't patch together a pretty good defense to go with this very good offense that is being built. So, it's kind of like 1995 all over again; talented QB, receivers, offensive line, running back(s) when healthy, but problems on defense-bigger problems than '95. Why can't it be fixed? Bowlen always was an owner that wanted to win and wasn't afraid to spend the money to do it, and he still is like that, so why can't we fix the defense?

And let's be honest-you or I could've coached the 2 Super Bowl teams, especially the '99 team. Shanny may have brought in the missing pieces to the puzzle, but that team just kicked butt on their own, no matter who the coach was. I'm not downplaying Shanny's role and importance back then, but I have to agree with the guys that are saying "this isn't getting any better" because it isn't. It isn't getting a whole lot worse, but it isn't getting any better. How long will it stay the same? How long until we put a respectable defense with this very good offense? Can Shanny do it again?...

Mike
12-30-2008, 10:20 AM
Well, a couple responses.

First, while we might have been 16th in points, the season started (first three games) with us on pace to set the NFL points record. In the past we have moved the ball, but I don't think there has been a time since Elway when we had an offense like this -- a second ranked offense in total yards. It is impossible to know what impact putting all those RB's on injured reserve had, but since it forced Bates to start calling different play, often within the course of the game, it is fair to say that the lack of the running backs effected us in the red zone and therefore effected our scoring.

Second, how many teams out there have had more than 4 playoff appearances in the last 10 years?

Third, the age old, "who's better" question. Do we go out and pickup mangini, crenell, the SF coach that was fired? Short of Cowher wanting the job, which fired HC to we go after? Which OC do we roll the dice on to see if he is HC material?

Fourth, in the NFl, cycles between winning stretches, and especially SB appearances/wins are typically pretty long. Take the Giants, they won in '86, '90 and '07, and I believe lost in 2000 or 2001. So, they made it about once every 8-10 years, which is about as good as it gets in the NFL. Few, if any other team has gotten to the SB with as much frequency, excluding the mini dynasties (SF multiple wins, Cowboys Multiple wins, Denver multiple wins, Patriots recent dynasty).

For a team to go three years without making the playoffs, while rebuilding it's team is not at all unusual. What is unusual is to manage to get 7, 9 and 8 wins while doing it. In a lot of ways, it would have been better if we had the typical 3, 1, 5 win seasons during the non-playoff years, because then it would 'feel' more like a typical rebuilding period, and fans could say, ok, we suck now, but once we rebuild we will be back.

For me personally, it has nothing to do with some kind of blind faith thing with Shanahan, but instead it is looking around the NFL and realizing that every other team goes through long stretches without winning in the playoffs or getting to the SB. The only differences is they aren't usually at or above .500 during those stretches, which is what Shanahan has managed to accomplish.

1) Denver generally produces yards every year, it is also common for them not to get points out of it. Honestly, this isn't something unusual we are talking about here. The only difference is this year where we were ranked in yards gained. With the exception of Pittman and Hillis, none of the other RBs had any impact on any aspect of the game. A great "mastermind" would have found creative ways to get the ball in the endzone without key players anyway. I didn't notice Belicheck missing a beat without Brady and their starting RBs...nor the Saints without their RBs...the Cardinals without any running game.

2) I don't know off hand, I will have to look it up and see when I have time. But I am sure that there are quite a few that have at least 1 win in the playoffs during that time...and 1 win puts us only 1 above the rest.

3) I don't buy into the "who is better" argument. If Denver goes with a retread then they are retarded anyway. You shouldn't be afraid to make a move just because you don't know what might happen. There are plenty of hungry young coaches out there waiting for a chance.

4) I understand about cycles and that teams shouldn't be expected to be great every year. And I don't expect that. All that I expect is to see signs of improvement. This is what I have seen over the last 8 years and still have not changed...

- A bumbling defense that has gotten worse
- A Special Teams unit that consistently redefines "special"
- Complete lack of fire, desire, motivation, and hunger
- Consistent poor playcalling
- Continuous pounding square pegs into round holes
- Consistently playing down to opponents and being completely unprepared to play to the point of getting humiliated by some of the leagues worst teams
- Always having a scapegoat or excuse...always 1/2 players away
- Hiring and maintaining coaches in critical jobs that are pretty much worthless

Like I said, I would have continued to support Shanahan for one more year, even though support had worn thin, had they not got obliterated Sunday night with the division on the line and had he decided to remove Slowick. Instead it just served to highlight everything (and probably more) that I said above.

Again, what will it take? Even though the Broncos have been "consistent" over those years and have won more regular season games than they have lost....what will it take to justify the removal of Shanahan?

Tned
12-30-2008, 11:54 AM
Again, what will it take? Even though the Broncos have been "consistent" over those years and have won more regular season games than they have lost....what will it take to justify the removal of Shanahan?

That's simple. The guy writing the check believing that Shanahan doesn't give his team the best chance to win. Currently, he seems to believe Shanahan, and what he has accomplished, is the better bet than starting to play the head-coach roulette game.

Mike
12-30-2008, 12:00 PM
That's simple. The guy writing the check believing that Shanahan doesn't give his team the best chance to win. Currently, he seems to believe Shanahan, and what he has accomplished, is the better bet than starting to play the head-coach roulette game.

Not talking about Bowlen making a move. I was asking for fans supporting Shanahan. I disagree with you again though. I think that it will take losing money for Bowlen to remove Shanahan.

Shazam!
12-30-2008, 12:40 PM
That's simple. The guy writing the check believing that Shanahan doesn't give his team the best chance to win. Currently, he seems to believe Shanahan, and what he has accomplished, is the better bet than starting to play the head-coach roulette game.

I can't think of one accomplishment worth mention without thinking of a guy named either John Elway or Steve Young that had something to do with those 'accomplishments.'

It will be impossible to duplicate that success, even if Jay Cutler is the answer when your defense is practically one of the laughing stocks of the NFL.

Tned
12-30-2008, 07:14 PM
Not talking about Bowlen making a move. I was asking for fans supporting Shanahan. I disagree with you again though. I think that it will take losing money for Bowlen to remove Shanahan.

Well clearly I didn't know my ass from a hole in the ground, and you were more in tune with Bowlen, when you lost faith in Shanahan.

Man, don't I wish I hadn't spent many, many hours yesterday dredging up all those stats about why Shanahan deserved to keep his job :D

SmilinAssasSin27
12-30-2008, 07:20 PM
As I posted elsewhere...he deserved to keep his COACHING job. Unfortunately the GM part hurt him.