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View Full Version : AFC West about to become the Wild, Wild West?



Lancane
10-18-2011, 02:26 PM
Has anyone else felt the uncertainty of this organization?

I'm not talking about Orton vs Tebow, or the trading of Lloyd. What I'm talking about is something we might not like thinking about as fans of the Broncos.

Phillip Rivers is in his prime and without question the best quarterback in the division; Oakland is about to acquire Pro-Bowl quarterback, Carson Palmer who is light years ahead of anyone on their roster, they also drafted Terrell Pryor in the supplemental draft who now will get to sit behind someone of quality; Kansas City is in contention for Luck, and if not could still look to add one of the big armed quarterbacks available in the draft behind him; all three teams have some good running backs and are better rushing teams then us, though that's supposedly Coach Fox's forte and better passing teams as well or soon will be. Is anyone else worried that we might be bringing a knife to a gun fight sort-to-speak?

Sorry to be all doom and gloom, but the AFC West looks to be changing and I have to wonder if we'll fit?

NightTerror218
10-18-2011, 02:39 PM
TEBOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





sorry I had to go there, figure jag would beat me to it but he didn't lol

silkamilkamonico
10-18-2011, 02:39 PM
Yep.

We are now rebuilding, again, after rebuilding in 2 separate occasions over the last 6 years. That's how bad it is here. This organization, including Pat Bowlen, does not have a clue in the direction they want to go, nor do they have the patience to stand behind the moves they have made. It's pathetic.

It is our turn to be the brunt of NFL jokes for a period of time. SD is going to be around as long as Rivers is. Oakland is undoubtedly headed in the right direction, and has a plethora of young talent.

Garbage in, Garbage out

silkamilkamonico
10-18-2011, 02:40 PM
TEBOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





sorry I had to go there, figure jag would beat me to it but he didn't lol

Tebow will be an excellent QB for some other organization after he is purged by this circus act or one.

Ravage!!!
10-18-2011, 02:40 PM
strange to see silk so gloom-n-doom

silkamilkamonico
10-18-2011, 02:44 PM
I tried to stand firm behind McDaniels over the long haul of what he believed in and was rewarded with cheating, lying, losing, and disappointment. It's a branch of what this organization has produced the last 7-8 years+ IMHO.

I am not going to think any different of it until we have a winning record after week 17.


"I can't hear what you're saying cuz I'm too busy listening to what you're doing."

NightTerror218
10-18-2011, 02:49 PM
Yep.

We are now rebuilding, again, after rebuilding in 2 separate occasions over the last 6 years. That's how bad it is here. This organization, including Pat Bowlen, does not have a clue in the direction they want to go, nor do they have the patience to stand behind the moves they have made. It's pathetic.

It is our turn to be the brunt of NFL jokes for a period of time. SD is going to be around as long as Rivers is. Oakland is undoubtedly headed in the right direction, and has a plethora of young talent.

Garbage in, Garbage out

I think we are in the right direction but go figure we also have a very hard schedule. We lost 3 games but less then a TD. We beat Cinci that is .....4-2. We could easily be 4-1. We had no chance against GB. Our D is drastically better, and our offense was horrible with Orton. But our running game is drastically better too. Our rushing defense is not the strong point in our defense. Our secondary is weak not but we also need more of a pass rush (Doomer needs to step up). OL is getting better, they have some quality back-ups starting. Have you looked at the schedule of the people we have played? They are 22-7, I think so far we have the hardest schedule, which will factor in if we tie with a bunch of loser teams at end of the season.

Lancane
10-18-2011, 02:57 PM
I think people are missing the point, can Tebow truly succeed in a division that will have high powered quarterbacks?

Or watching us getting dismantled by Palmer, Rivers and possibly Luck, will it cause the fans to turn on Tebow? If we still had Cutler I think we'd be fine, but the fans turned on Plummer even though he was a winner, turned on Orton cause he's a loser...Tebow is on a tight leash with the fans. If Tebow has any shot of succeeding he better become Steve Young (San Fran) instead of Steve Young (Tampa Bay) and quickly or the fans may want to sacrifice him to the football gods.

Ravage!!!
10-18-2011, 03:00 PM
I guess I just can't see Palmer being a part of the "high octane" of the passing attack. Not until I can actually see that he's back to form from 3 years ago.

As of right now, if he was.... no, Tebow is not a gunner or slinger. He's a runner.

dogfish
10-18-2011, 03:00 PM
this still isn't a good division. . . two of the four teams are non-competitive, and the chargers are also-rans who are never a serious post-season threat. . . the raiders were stacked with young talent and far better than us before they got palmer-- he's a modest upgrade at best. . . i'm not convinced he's good enough to get them past the chargers. . .

of course, the fact that it's a bad division and we still aren't competitive in it shows just how bad we really are. . . sucks to say it, but the broncos are who we thought they were, and nobody's lettin' us off the hook. . . palmer to oaktown doesn't bother me-- we weren't gonna beat them anyway, unfortunately. . .

slim
10-18-2011, 03:10 PM
The division still only has one pro-bowl caliber QB.

KC is NOT in a position to draft Luck.

Palmer has managed 2 really good years and has been about average the rest of his career.

T.K.O.
10-18-2011, 03:12 PM
so......the breaking news is the Broncos need to get better ?
if they want to compete with the other marginally good teams in the AFCW ?
sounds like a plan.....:beer:

dogfish
10-18-2011, 03:21 PM
The division still only has one pro-bowl caliber QB.

KC is NOT in a position to draft Luck.

Palmer has managed 2 really good years and has been about average the rest of his career.

yep-- we're not exactly the NFC south just yet. . .


of course, that doesn't change the fact that we do need significantly better QB play-- ultimately the goal is to compete with every team for a championship, not just within your division. . . if you want to be a factor in the playoffs, you need either an aaron rodgers-drew brees type, or at least a defense that can beat those guys. . . but just in terms of competing within the division, i'm FAR more scared of AFC west running games than passing games. . .

Lancane
10-18-2011, 03:35 PM
I have to disagree, not that the West is going to be the next NFC North or anything, but that the division is changing, San Diego has long been able to compete with most of the NFL, problem is that lately they've lost some talent and have had some injury issues. But I find it funny that we're sounding like Charger fans of old talking about the Broncos - "No worries, all they have is a John Elway", when sadly that was enough, but the Chargers have more then Rivers and keep kicking our sorry asses...and Oakland? Campbell was able to lead them to victory over us and most of their opponents, what will Palmer be able to do? I think a lot of people are in for a surprise, because that's what people said about Rich Gannon and he became an All-Pro for Oakland. And while Kansas City is struggling, let us not forget who the General Manager is there, Kansas City is a lot better then people realize they're just missing some key components.

Where are we on the pecking order? Especially if Tebow is more like the next Michael Vick (which I'll puke) then the next Steve Young?

I have to ask, because after what Brandon Lloyd said to ESPN, that Denver only wants to throw the ball twenty or so times a game...are we really going to be able to compete in a pass happy league?

BroncoStud
10-18-2011, 03:51 PM
I think people are missing the point, can Tebow truly succeed in a division that will have high powered quarterbacks?

Or watching us getting dismantled by Palmer, Rivers and possibly Luck, will it cause the fans to turn on Tebow? If we still had Cutler I think we'd be fine, but the fans turned on Plummer even though he was a winner, turned on Orton cause he's a loser...Tebow is on a tight leash with the fans. If Tebow has any shot of succeeding he better become Steve Young (San Fran) instead of Steve Young (Tampa Bay) and quickly or the fans may want to sacrifice him to the football gods.

Carson Palmer? Have you watched him play for the past 3 years? He's 1/2 the QB he was early in his career. Injuries have derailed his physical ability.

If you expect Tebow to be Rivers then you are inviting failure and letdown. He isn't. He doesn't have to be. At least we should know by the end of the season where we stand at QB going forward.

I think we have a much better shot at Luck than KC does and they have Cassel under contract. If Tebow turns out to be the guy then all this worry is for nothing. I think he has the ability to do anything we need him to do and he has shown more will and determination to keep Denver competitive than any Denver QB since John Elway, IMO.

I think we're fine with Tebow. If not, keep building the defense. I think if used properly Tebow is a QB that can do things that no other QB in this division can. He may very well end up being the class of the division.

vandammage13
10-18-2011, 04:04 PM
I think the most overlooked thing that is great about having Tebow is that teams just aren't used to preparing for a QB of his type.

Let's say you have a team and you have to play the Chiefs, Jets, and Browns in consecutive weeks...Is there really that much different between the QB's of those teams that you have to dedicate a significant amount of practice time to plan for?

It's kind of like in college when a team has to play against a triple-option offense like Georgia Tech. GT doesn't have the best players but they win a lot of their games simply because teams aren't used to playing against that type of offense.

No coach wants to go against the triple option in college, and no coach is going to want to have to deal with the headache of preparing for Tebow either. (I'm not adovcating we use the triple option, I'm just using it as a comparison, so don't get it twisted folks...)

I can see this same thing happen for us with Tebow. Teams just aren't going to be used to playing that type of game defensively, so that can only help Denver.

So let the rest of the West have their QB's...I want to see if they can handle our QB, cuz I don't think they can...

Shazam!
10-18-2011, 04:12 PM
Rivers is the best QB in the AFCW until someone else steps up (TEBOW).

weazel
10-18-2011, 04:16 PM
not to sound like an ass but Palmer hasn't looked good for about 3 years and has been sitting out for a while. He is not a pro-bowl qb in the slightest. If he was, numerous other teams would have been beating down the Bengals doors to get the pro-bowler

I think we've become a little spoiled being fans of a team that didnt really go into full rebuild mode for many many seasons. Yeah its gonna be a while before they are competitive again, but all teams have to go through it at some point or just keep being mediocre.

Lancane
10-18-2011, 04:19 PM
Carson Palmer? Have you watched him play for the past 3 years? He's 1/2 the QB he was early in his career. Injuries have derailed his physical ability.

That's exactly what people said about Rich Gannon and Jim Plunkett, the two winningest quarterbacks in Raiders' History.


If you expect Tebow to be Rivers then you are inviting failure and letdown. He isn't. He doesn't have to be. At least we should know by the end of the season where we stand at QB going forward.
Who said anything about Rivers? The league caters to those who are pass efficient. Michael Vick had to go to prison, then be re-coached to learn that he had to become more efficient from the pocket, he started to revert to old form this season and he was ready to be ran out of town by the fans, luckily he's started to regain last year's form. Cam Newton was suppose to be just as mobile as Tebow, look what he's doing from the pocket. The bar has been set high by all the young quarterbacks in the NFL. He doesn't have to be comparable to Manning, Rivers or Brees, but he better be at least comparable to Sanchez, Roethlisberger and Flacco. If he comes in and is passing for only 200 yards a game and running for another 100, it won't be long before the fans want him gone.


I think we have a much better shot at Luck than KC does and they have Cassel under contract. If Tebow turns out to be the guy then all this worry is for nothing. I think he has the ability to do anything we need him to do and he has shown more will and determination to keep Denver competitive than any Denver QB since John Elway, IMO.
Oakland had Pryor, Boller and Campbell under contract as well. Point is that we've seen what teams will do to improve at the position. And Kansas City would be just as lethal should they nab anyone of the top three, hell maybe even one of the top five. Foles and Cousins are not horrid quarterbacks themselves.

And I like some of the natural abilities that Tebow brings, his drive and passion above all else, but he's not going to revolutionize the position, even Ed McCaffrey and Shannon Sharpe have said as much, this is a pass happy league and he better know how to throw the damn ball.


I think we're fine with Tebow. If not, keep building the defense. I think if used properly Tebow is a QB that can do things that no other QB in this division can. He may very well end up being the class of the division.

This sounds just like the crap that Jagsbch and Bullgator spew, he needs to conform to the NFL, thinking that the NFL needs to conform to him is not only asinine but it's borderline narcissistic insolence.

FlyByU
10-18-2011, 04:28 PM
I think people are missing the point, can Tebow truly succeed in a division that will have high powered quarterbacks?

Or watching us getting dismantled by Palmer, Rivers and possibly Luck, will it cause the fans to turn on Tebow? If we still had Cutler I think we'd be fine, but the fans turned on Plummer even though he was a winner, turned on Orton cause he's a loser...Tebow is on a tight leash with the fans. If Tebow has any shot of succeeding he better become Steve Young (San Fran) instead of Steve Young (Tampa Bay) and quickly or the fans may want to sacrifice him to the football gods.

LOL haven't seen Tebow for more then 3 1/2 games and all of those games he has us in a position to win (won one 17 points down) in the closing minutes yet he isn't the QB for Denver. Lets give him some time before putting the gun to the proverbial head and pulling the trigger. What I have seen of Tebow tells me he has what it takes to lead and win games that is all that matters.

Would you like to have Luck and be 6-10 for 5 season or have Tebow and go to the wildcard for 5 seasons. This is circumstantial statement but it is about as good as others have done so far.

First post I thought was good then you turn it to a hate Tebow thread.

Lancane
10-18-2011, 04:33 PM
not to sound like an ass but Palmer hasn't looked good for about 3 years and has been sitting out for a while. He is not a pro-bowl qb in the slightest. If he was, numerous other teams would have been beating down the Bengals doors to get the pro-bowler

Weazel, you need to get out more often brother...Palmer was inquired about by several teams after the draft; Tennessee, Miami, San Francisco, Minnesota, Indianapolis, Arizona, Seattle and even Washington, but Brown shot them all down, the only reason Oakland got Palmer is because Jackson is close to Brown and the Cincinnati organization, that and what Oakland was willing to give up for him.

And as I stated earlier, a lot of the AFC West fans, Denver's, Kansas City's, San Diego's and Seattle's all said much of what they're saying about Palmer about Rich Gannon, and he tore it up.


I think we've become a little spoiled being fans of a team that didnt really go into full rebuild mode for many many seasons. Yeah its gonna be a while before they are competitive again, but all teams have to go through it at some point or just keep being mediocre.

I really don't care that we'll be in rebuilding mode for another season or two, what I am more concerned about is that Tebow will be supported by the blinded faithful even if he is mediocre, especially the zealous Gatorites and Tebowites. We need a quarterback whom can throw the ball as well as lead, I worry if Tebow is even capable and that it will be more evident the stronger the division gets in that area...especially if it's the offensive coordinator that's holding him back.

Lancane
10-18-2011, 04:51 PM
LOL haven't seen Tebow for more then 3 1/2 games and all of those games he has us in a position to win (won one 17 points down) in the closing minutes yet he isn't the QB for Denver. Lets give him some time before putting the gun to the proverbial head and pulling the trigger. What I have seen of Tebow tells me he has what it takes to lead and win games that is all that matters.

Would you like to have Luck and be 6-10 for 5 season or have Tebow and go to the wildcard for 5 seasons. This is circumstantial statement but it is about as good as others have done so far.

First post I thought was good then you turn it to a hate Tebow thread.

I don't hate Tebow Fly, in fact I am one of the few who believed that Denver would draft him. There are a lot of things about Tebow I like, he's passionate, has a drive to succeed and win, he's calm under pressure, and has the ability to escape defenders and make things happen. However, when the league is pass happy it's already an uphill battle for someone like Tebow, but in a pass happy division? Oakland use to only be able to run the ball, Kansas City was semi-capable of passing but was a far better rushing team and San Diego has been great pretty much in both areas; now what happens when all our rivals have explosive offenses that can pass as easily as run? Tebow will be measured by comparison against those he plays the most.

Brandon Lloyd said in an interview yesterday that "the offense changed", that "they only want to throw the ball twenty-times a game or so", remember that originally Tebow was drafted to play in what would be considered more of an Air-Erhardt offense, now he's being placed in a conservative Erhardt-Perkins Smashmouth offense that relies on running the ball more then passing, I worry that it will be the offense that becomes the tripwire for his downfall, because in some weird sort of retrospect it's more like his collegiate offense then a true pro-style offensive system. I don't care if he throws 25/45 350 yards with 2 touchdowns and 2 interceptions, what I am more concerned about is that he'll be held back and not allowed to truly develop looking more like 15/20 210 yards, 102 yards on the ground with 2 touchdowns, but no chance to win except now and then. I worry that McCoy is going to dumb down this offense to the point that it all rests on Tebow and McGahee and looks like shit.

G_Money
10-18-2011, 04:57 PM
We need a quarterback whom can throw the ball as well as lead, I worry if Tebow is even capable and that it will be more evident the stronger the division gets in that area...especially if it's the offensive coordinator that's holding him back.

THAT's my concern. I haven't liked anything I've seen out of McCoy. Not innovative, not explosive, not...anything. He'd better start wowing me.

Tebow with a brilliant OC could be fascinating to watch. Tebow with a dull OC is gonna be swimming through cement, much like John was for a large portion of his career. There's a reason he was the best he'd ever been late in his career, and it's not just because we finally found him some talent to play with. He had a real offense to run, too.

I like some things about Tim, and some things concern me. But much of what concerns me is the sort of offense we'll run with him and the person designing that offense.

And those concerns won't be abated with a different QB at the helm.

~G

Lancane
10-18-2011, 05:09 PM
THAT's my concern. I haven't liked anything I've seen out of McCoy. Not innovative, not explosive, not...anything. He'd better start wowing me.

Tebow with a brilliant OC could be fascinating to watch. Tebow with a dull OC is gonna be swimming through cement, much like John was for a large portion of his career. There's a reason he was the best he'd ever been late in his career, and it's not just because we finally found him some talent to play with. He had a real offense to run, too.

I like some things about Tim, and some things concern me. But much of what concerns me is the sort of offense we'll run with him and the person designing that offense.

And those concerns won't be abated with a different QB at the helm.

~G

Mike McCoy learned his craft from some very questionable offensive coordinators, two of which are out of the league now and the third is in St. Louis and is struggling. McCoy has been if nothing, completely mediocre without McDaniels, and I am wondering if that will be allowed to continue? Add in Coach Fox's conservative philosophy and it's quite possible that Tebow doesn't get a fair shot to be the quarterback he wanted to be in Denver.

That's why I think the more pass happy the AFC West becomes the more evident his short comings will be exposed, even if it's the fault of the coaches and the fans will eventually turn on him if that's the case.

Ravage!!!
10-18-2011, 05:17 PM
No coach wants to go against the triple option in college, and no coach is going to want to have to deal with the headache of preparing for Tebow either. (I'm not adovcating we use the triple option, I'm just using it as a comparison, so don't get it twisted folks...)

Every coach would love to play against the triple-option. Thats why Oklahoma and Nebraska have moved away from t hat offense despite having YEARS of dominating the college ranks with it in the past.

But the same thing was said about Vick when he came out.

Lancane
10-18-2011, 05:22 PM
Every coach would love to play against the triple-option. Thats why Oklahoma and Nebraska have moved away from t hat offense despite having YEARS of dominating the college ranks with it in the past.

But the same thing was said about Vick when he came out.

If Tebow starts looking like Vick, something tells me that a lot of us will be hitting the Jack Daniels like Orton does.

Ziggy
10-18-2011, 05:23 PM
Tebow will be Tebow. He'll do everything he can to win, and most of the time it will be ugly when he does. The problem with the Broncos is the glaring lack of talent overall. Roster for roster, we're in the bottom third of the NFL talent-wise. What makes it worse is that our biggest problems are on the offensive and defensive lines.

Zane Beadles and JD Walton are backup caliber players and we're trying to run a power running scheme. Somewhere along the line, the ZBS that was supposed to be brought over with Magazu got scrapped and we're once again trying to fit a square peg in a round hole with the power running game. Franklin, Clady and Kuper can all play in both, but Franklin is better suited as a guard than a tackle, so he's out of place also.

We won't be looking at an AFC west title for a long time, but at least Tebow will make the games worth watching. Then, unless he absolutely tears it up this season with lackluster talent around him and a questionable offensive coordinator, the Broncos will be mired in QB controversy again leading up to the draft. If you think that the season is frustrating, wait until the offseason comes around.

Ravage!!!
10-18-2011, 05:24 PM
If Tebow starts looking like Vick, something tells me that a lot of us will be hitting the Jack Daniels like Orton does.

Well, Vick looked good for a couple years. So I'm sure things will be "high" around here for a bit..especially the next few games when everything is new and different, and teams haven't had the game plan down, yet.

Lancane
10-18-2011, 05:32 PM
Well, Vick looked good for a couple years. So I'm sure things will be "high" around here for a bit..especially the next few games when everything is new and different, and teams haven't had the game plan down, yet.

I don't think so, if Tebow looks anything like Vick did his first seven seasons there might be some major issues.

http://www.nfl.com/player/michaelvick/2504531/profile

Vick was unique, but he wasn't great by any means...and I don't see Tebow getting seven years like Vick or Young did.

Cugel
10-18-2011, 06:28 PM
The division still only has one pro-bowl caliber QB.

KC is NOT in a position to draft Luck.

Palmer has managed 2 really good years and has been about average the rest of his career.
Never underestimate KC's chances of landing Luck. They're by NO MEANS out of the Luck sweepstakes. Here's my post about their chances in another thread:


#8 KC 2-3. KC probably took themselves out of contention with that come from behind win against the Colts. Still, instead of celebrating the victory, GM Scott Pioli spent the week denying rumors he intended to fire coach Todd Haley if they lost to the Colts. (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1403486&posted=1#post1403486)

On the plus side, Jamaal Charles is still gone for the season, the coaching controversy still simmers at Arrowhead, and they face a brutal late game schedule that has them playing Pittsburgh, Chicago, Green Bay, Oakland, and the Jets in consecutive weeks before finishing up with the Broncos. They are still in the hunt, but the Dolpins and Colts are going to have to win a couple of games to put them back in contention if that December game at Mile High is going to have any meaning for them.

Perhaps the Broncos could pull Tebow and put in Brady Quinn just for that game? Would the NFL punish them for that?

I could add to their credit that Matt Cassel is not exactly lighting the league on fire either and that they don't seem to be well suited to playing a 3-4 defense. :coffee:

Cugel
10-18-2011, 06:38 PM
Tebow will be Tebow. He'll do everything he can to win, and most of the time it will be ugly when he does. The problem with the Broncos is the glaring lack of talent overall. Roster for roster, we're in the bottom third of the NFL talent-wise. What makes it worse is that our biggest problems are on the offensive and defensive lines.

Zane Beadles and JD Walton are backup caliber players and we're trying to run a power running scheme. Somewhere along the line, the ZBS that was supposed to be brought over with Magazu got scrapped and we're once again trying to fit a square peg in a round hole with the power running game. Franklin, Clady and Kuper can all play in both, but Franklin is better suited as a guard than a tackle, so he's out of place also.

We won't be looking at an AFC west title for a long time, but at least Tebow will make the games worth watching. Then, unless he absolutely tears it up this season with lackluster talent around him and a questionable offensive coordinator, the Broncos will be mired in QB controversy again leading up to the draft. If you think that the season is frustrating, wait until the offseason comes around.

I have to agree with everything Ziggy said.

Right now the Broncos have about 6 or 8 players on their entire roster who could potentially start for a SB team some day, maybe. That leaves around 14 players would have to be replaced before they could hope to make a serious playoff run.

Offense:
Tebow (possibly but I doubt it)
Clady
Franklin (maybe)

That's about it. None of the rest is looking like they are ever going to be great. But, give them another dark horse (maybe Demaryius Thomas will get healthy?). That's 4 players on offense.

Defense:
Champ (if they move him to safety sometime in the next 3 or 4 years)
Doom
Miller

Maybe one other? Rahim Moore has been bad so far but he's a rookie and could maybe blossom or perhaps some other defender will emerge as a solid starter worthy of starting for a SB team.

So, they have miles and miles to go. Most of the players they will need to make a serious playoff run are not even on the roster yet and will have to be acquired via the draft and FA over the next 3 years. :coffee:

So, realistically, 2013 or 2014 is the earliest they could contend for an AFC Title Game. And that assumes they get the QB situation straightened out before then.

If Tebow continues to lose games they will draft a QB. Hopefully Luck, possibly some other top 10 QB. I think they have a good chance at the #3 or #4 pick and could maybe move up a couple of spots and get a top QB if the Rams or Panthers are ahead of them since those teams already have their Franchise QBs.

So, unless the Rams or Panthers get the #1 pick and have a chance at Luck they would probably want to trade down to a team that wanted another QB (like the Broncos).

BroncoStud
10-18-2011, 06:38 PM
All I keep hearing about Tebow is that he can't throw a football yet everytime I see the gut play Denver looks like they can score with anyone. If Tebow improves even moderately and we continue to build a defense then I think the Broncos will be just fine.

Agent of Orange
10-18-2011, 06:42 PM
I think people are missing the point, can Tebow truly succeed in a division that will have high powered quarterbacks?

Or watching us getting dismantled by Palmer, Rivers and possibly Luck, will it cause the fans to turn on Tebow? If we still had Cutler I think we'd be fine, but the fans turned on Plummer even though he was a winner, turned on Orton cause he's a loser...Tebow is on a tight leash with the fans. If Tebow has any shot of succeeding he better become Steve Young (San Fran) instead of Steve Young (Tampa Bay) and quickly or the fans may want to sacrifice him to the football gods.

The offense has scored at least 21 points every time he has started. This past game he was a little rusty at first, but even then the offense went on to score 2 TDs in less than half of a quarter with the game ending as the offense was driving again.

Tebow isn't what Im most worried about.

FlyByU
10-18-2011, 07:03 PM
I don't hate Tebow Fly, in fact I am one of the few who believed that Denver would draft him. There are a lot of things about Tebow I like, he's passionate, has a drive to succeed and win, he's calm under pressure, and has the ability to escape defenders and make things happen. However, when the league is pass happy it's already an uphill battle for someone like Tebow, but in a pass happy division? Oakland use to only be able to run the ball, Kansas City was semi-capable of passing but was a far better rushing team and San Diego has been great pretty much in both areas; now what happens when all our rivals have explosive offenses that can pass as easily as run? Tebow will be measured by comparison against those he plays the most.

Brandon Lloyd said in an interview yesterday that "the offense changed", that "they only want to throw the ball twenty-times a game or so", remember that originally Tebow was drafted to play in what would be considered more of an Air-Erhardt offense, now he's being placed in a conservative Erhardt-Perkins Smashmouth offense that relies on running the ball more then passing, I worry that it will be the offense that becomes the tripwire for his downfall, because in some weird sort of retrospect it's more like his collegiate offense then a true pro-style offensive system. I don't care if he throws 25/45 350 yards with 2 touchdowns and 2 interceptions, what I am more concerned about is that he'll be held back and not allowed to truly develop looking more like 15/20 210 yards, 102 yards on the ground with 2 touchdowns, but no chance to win except now and then. I worry that McCoy is going to dumb down this offense to the point that it all rests on Tebow and McGahee and looks like shit.

OK sorry took it the wrong way... again sorry about that.

The Offense problems I feel is McCoy's play calling and have since he has come to Denver. He seems to call the wrong plays at the wrong time to often and when he does call the right plays its to little to late. I seen this with Orton in and with Tebow in and preseason with Quinn. We need Gary Kubiak or someone like him to have a good Offense again. Kub's won games with good play calling. Can't say he a great HC but as an OC he is thee best IMO.

I feel that if Fox/McCoy come out with a run Tebow a lot O it is just stupid and the DC's in the NFL will put a stop to that pretty quick at least the good DC's. I they run a spread op type O more like they did in Florida I think it would work in the Pros very well with a QB like Tebow starting. Hell I remember years ago someone put in a rookie IIRC it was the Giants and ran a wishbone and beat the crap out of IIRC Washington again that was many years ago can't remember much more then that I was shocked it worked so well against pro's who should have been a lot better at stopping it.

Lancane
10-18-2011, 07:28 PM
All I keep hearing about Tebow is that he can't throw a football yet everytime I see the gut play Denver looks like they can score with anyone. If Tebow improves even moderately and we continue to build a defense then I think the Broncos will be just fine.

I never said Tebow can not throw, I never said he had a weak arm either...my biggest concern is the timing of his release, his accuracy, the lack of velocity on his throws as well as his questionable motion because he doesn't throw the tightest spirals which likewise effect those things I already mentioned. I would also like to see him learn to pump fake better, and I hoped that Elway would have helped him in that area, but I am yet to see improvement with that.

A bigger concern should be the lack of backbone the offense has, Lloyd has already mentioned that Coach Fox wants to go about 60/40 in favor of the run, to limit the passing game to about twenty passes a game. The NFL average is about thirty-three a game, that means he'd be more limited then Curtis Painter, Jason Campbell or even Alex Smith. The run game in Denver is not good enough to win with a weak passing attack, if they limit Tebow and don't allow him to control the game then it's possible that he'll not adapt to pro style and speed of the NFL.

The biggest problem I see is that Denver fans, or some of them continue to say 'Defense...Defense...Defense', and they haven't realized that this defense will never be like Pittsburgh's or Baltimore's, Coach Fox has always ran a 'Bend Don't Break' defensive philosophy, that's not about to change, and I don't mind that type of defense - the problem is that with that type of defense, if you run a conservative offense the chances are that you'll lose more games then win because you'll usually play from behind. To really be effective with a 'Bend Don't Break' defense, you usually need a high powered offense to counter it.

NightTerror218
10-18-2011, 07:34 PM
I have to agree with everything Ziggy said.

Right now the Broncos have about 6 or 8 players on their entire roster who could potentially start for a SB team some day, maybe. That leaves around 14 players would have to be replaced before they could hope to make a serious playoff run.

Offense:
Tebow (possibly but I doubt it)
Clady
Franklin (maybe)

That's about it. None of the rest is looking like they are ever going to be great. But, give them another dark horse (maybe Demaryius Thomas will get healthy?). That's 4 players on offense.

Defense:
Champ (if they move him to safety sometime in the next 3 or 4 years)
Doom
Miller

Maybe one other? Rahim Moore has been bad so far but he's a rookie and could maybe blossom or perhaps some other defender will emerge as a solid starter worthy of starting for a SB team.

So, they have miles and miles to go. Most of the players they will need to make a serious playoff run are not even on the roster yet and will have to be acquired via the draft and FA over the next 3 years. :coffee:

So, realistically, 2013 or 2014 is the earliest they could contend for an AFC Title Game. And that assumes they get the QB situation straightened out before then.

If Tebow continues to lose games they will draft a QB. Hopefully Luck, possibly some other top 10 QB. I think they have a good chance at the #3 or #4 pick and could maybe move up a couple of spots and get a top QB if the Rams or Panthers are ahead of them since those teams already have their Franchise QBs.

So, unless the Rams or Panthers get the #1 pick and have a chance at Luck they would probably want to trade down to a team that wanted another QB (like the Broncos).

We need to add some caliber starters to replace some of ours. But the thing is that you done need a pro bowler in every position to be a Sb team. You need something like 8 or so is an average I heard. I say we have 2 at most right now. We have more good players then you listed Kuper, McGahee as #2 RB (in 2 back system). I think Decker and maybe J. Thomas should be on your list also. I do think bunkley has dramatically helped increase the DL since we are no longer 32 in rushing defense. I would love a great replacement for Mays to run the defense, a great safety, and a great DT. I think we need a new guard to replace Beadles and Watson is a decent starter but great backup. You can fix all these holes but you wont need to be a SB team. Packers won with a bunch of their 2nd stringers starting. Great depth there, our 2nd stringers wouldnt make a practice squad for most teams.

NightTerror218
10-18-2011, 07:37 PM
I never said Tebow can not throw, I never said he had a weak arm either...my biggest concern is the timing of his release, his accuracy, the lack of velocity on his throws as well as his questionable motion because he doesn't throw the tightest spirals which likewise effect those things I already mentioned. I would also like to see him learn to pump fake better, and I hoped that Elway would have helped him in that area, but I am yet to see improvement with that.

A bigger concern should be the lack of backbone the offense has, Lloyd has already mentioned that Coach Fox wants to go about 60/40 in favor of the run, to limit the passing game to about twenty passes a game. The NFL average is about thirty-three a game, that means he'd be more limited then Curtis Painter, Jason Campbell or even Alex Smith. The run game in Denver is not good enough to win with a weak passing attack, if they limit Tebow and don't allow him to control the game then it's possible that he'll not adapt to pro style and speed of the NFL.

The biggest problem I see is that Denver fans, or some of them continue to say 'Defense...Defense...Defense', and they haven't realized that this defense will never be like Pittsburgh's or Baltimore's, Coach Fox has always ran a 'Bend Don't Break' defensive philosophy, that's not about to change, and I don't mind that type of defense - the problem is that with that type of defense, if you run a conservative offense the chances are that you'll lose more games then win because you'll usually play from behind. To really be effective with a 'Bend Don't Break' defense, you usually need a high powered offense to counter it.

Just have to say....our running is much better with several games had Rb over 100 yards. I think with Tebow we will have more rushing but I expect Tebow to do what he HAS ALREADY been doing, running to the 1st down line and out of bounds. He was impressed me with his rushing out of bounds to avoid contact.

Agent of Orange
10-18-2011, 07:40 PM
I never said Tebow can not throw, I never said he had a weak arm either...my biggest concern is the timing of his release, his accuracy, the lack of velocity on his throws as well as his questionable motion because he doesn't throw the tightest spirals which likewise effect those things I already mentioned. I would also like to see him learn to pump fake better, and I hoped that Elway would have helped him in that area, but I am yet to see improvement with that.

A bigger concern should be the lack of backbone the offense has, Lloyd has already mentioned that Coach Fox wants to go about 60/40 in favor of the run, to limit the passing game to about twenty passes a game. The NFL average is about thirty-three a game, that means he'd be more limited then Curtis Painter, Jason Campbell or even Alex Smith. The run game in Denver is not good enough to win with a weak passing attack, if they limit Tebow and don't allow him to control the game then it's possible that he'll not adapt to pro style and speed of the NFL.

The biggest problem I see is that Denver fans, or some of them continue to say 'Defense...Defense...Defense', and they haven't realized that this defense will never be like Pittsburgh's or Baltimore's, Coach Fox has always ran a 'Bend Don't Break' defensive philosophy, that's not about to change, and I don't mind that type of defense - the problem is that with that type of defense, if you run a conservative offense the chances are that you'll lose more games then win because you'll usually play from behind. To really be effective with a 'Bend Don't Break' defense, you usually need a high powered offense to counter it.

Where is Lloyd getting 60/40? It seems like he might be distorting the truth because he's having an emotional reaction to not getting the ball thrown his way as much as it was last year.

dogfish
10-18-2011, 08:26 PM
Where is Lloyd getting 60/40? It seems like he might be distorting the truth because he's having an emotional reaction to not getting the ball thrown his way as much as it was last year.

NFL.com shows us with 118 rushing attempts and 165 passing attempts ( http://www.nfl.com/teams/denverbroncos/statistics?team=DEN )-- unless my math is even worse than i thought, i believe that would be like 58% passing, 42% running. . . looks like lloyd's math sucks also. . . in a perfect world, i'm sure fox would prefer to always have the lead and run like 80% of the time-- these current broncos, however, are unlikely to ever be really "run-heavy" in more than philosophy. . .


also. . . not to infuriate cane, but we really do still need a lot better defense as well if fox thinks he can throw it 20 times a game. . . orton threw it more than 30 times three of his four starts, including 46 against oakland. . . unless we're content to just lose once we start playing tebow, we'll be throwing it a lot more than 20 times a game whether fox wants to or not. . .

Davii
10-18-2011, 08:31 PM
Has anyone else felt the uncertainty of this organization?

I'm not talking about Orton vs Tebow, or the trading of Lloyd. What I'm talking about is something we might not like thinking about as fans of the Broncos.

Phillip Rivers is in his prime and without question the best quarterback in the division; Oakland is about to acquire Pro-Bowl quarterback, Carson Palmer who is light years ahead of anyone on their roster, they also drafted Terrell Pryor in the supplemental draft who now will get to sit behind someone of quality; Kansas City is in contention for Luck, and if not could still look to add one of the big armed quarterbacks available in the draft behind him; all three teams have some good running backs and are better rushing teams then us, though that's supposedly Coach Fox's forte and better passing teams as well or soon will be. Is anyone else worried that we might be bringing a knife to a gun fight sort-to-speak?

Sorry to be all doom and gloom, but the AFC West looks to be changing and I have to wonder if we'll fit?

Keep in mind a few things... The Raiders, although looking like they're headed in the right direction, are now without 1st rd picks for two years and have only one pick in next years draft, a sixth rounder. You can't sustain a good football team like that. The Raiders might turn around for a couple years, but at some point the draft drought WILL bite them in the ass.

The Chiefs need a lot more than a qb to be a good team. There are also other teams in the running for Luck. The Colts are the odds in favorites, and don't look now, but the Broncos arecloser to Luck that the Chiefs are at this point.

Lancane
10-18-2011, 08:36 PM
Where is Lloyd getting 60/40? It seems like he might be distorting the truth because he's having an emotional reaction to not getting the ball thrown his way as much as it was last year.

Don't ask me, I thought maybe he was talking about the changes to the offense with Tebow...after that he said he preferred teams that 60/40 in favor of the pass. He didn't sound emotional, pretty level headed...but who knows, he was a tad too excited about being reunited with McDaniels though.

dogfish
10-18-2011, 08:40 PM
"This team is going to win some games sometime."

- Brandon Lloyd

BroncoStud
10-19-2011, 01:02 AM
This sounds just like the crap that Jagsbch and Bullgator spew, he needs to conform to the NFL, thinking that the NFL needs to conform to him is not only asinine but it's borderline narcissistic insolence.

Who is saying he doesn't need to conform? Has Tim Tebow said it? I never heard it or read it if he did... Of course Tebow needs to improve. What young QB doesn't? All I have ever heard from Tebow is that he will do what it takes to become the best QB and player he can...

I would say his play so far has been surprisingly poised and competitive.

Give the guy a chance. Hell, Orton had 2 + seasons to prove himself in Denver. I agree with you about the offense. I really hope we rid ourselves of McCoy and bring in someone with actual talent.

Canmore
10-19-2011, 05:07 AM
Who is saying he doesn't need to conform? Has Tim Tebow said it? I never heard it or read it if he did... Of course Tebow needs to improve. What young QB doesn't? All I have ever heard from Tebow is that he will do what it takes to become the best QB and player he can...

I would say his play so far has been surprisingly poised and competitive.

Give the guy a chance. Hell, Orton had 2 + seasons to prove himself in Denver. I agree with you about the offense. I really hope we rid ourselves of McCoy and bring in someone with actual talent.

Tebow will give everything he has on the field and off. You've got to love that. So far he has at least given the team a chance to win in every game except one. The team seems to play harder when he is in there. Just look at the last game against San Diego. The defense and offense played better ball in the second half. The difference seemed to be Tim Tebow. I'm looking forward to the Miami game which should be a semi-home game for the Broncos with all the Gator fans there celebrating the Florida 2008 National Championship that Tebow orchestrated.