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Tned
12-28-2008, 02:19 PM
Winning in Denver Isn't a birthright

It would seem that somewhere along the way, the Denver fans have begun to believe that having winning seasons is some kind of birthright that has been bestowed upon the Denver Broncos. That while for 'other' franchises, simply having a winning record, or getting to the playoffs is a major feat, in Denver anything short of a Super Bowl appearance, or more accurately a win, is a 'bad' season.

While winning seasons have historically been the benchmark for how good an NFL franchise is, with Denver fans the normal NFL rules don't apply. Denver is 'different', just ask a Denver fan, they will tell you.

Maybe it's because many of the younger Denver fans were first introduced to the Broncos and became Denver fans in the late '90s, when John Elway, Terrell Davis, Rod Smith, Shannon Sharpe and the rest of the Super Bowl winning teams put together three great seasons and won two Super Bowls.

Maybe it is because 15 years of John Elway and his five Super Bowl appearances have spoiled us all. That while remembering the Drive and "this one's for John" and then the icing of another Super Bowl win, we forgot about the rough years after the last Super Bowl blowout and the 'lean' years that followed.

Somewhere along the way, we forgot about the fact that nearly half (7) of Elway's 16 seasons were 9 wins or less. This included an eight year stretch of inconsistency that began in '88 with a .500 season, followed by a Super Bowl blowout loss to San Francisco, and then six years of futility, with only two seasons over .500, both of which resulted in first round losses in the playoffs.

Maybe because Elway brought us to three Super Bowls in the late '80s, which Denver had no business being in, not to mention having no chance to win, we began to think that we had been 'granted' a special right to appear in Super Bowls far more frequently than any other NFL club.

Maybe because all the pieces fell in place -- a nobody 6th round running back with Hall of Fame talent; a fireplug of an offensive line coach who took a group of undersized linemen and created a well oiled buzz saw that cut the legs out from underneath every opposing defensive line we faced, opening holes for that 'nobody' running back; a hall of fame quarterback that for the first time in his long career had both a group of receivers and a running game, along with a coach that taught him the power of the west coast offense.

While this borders on sacrilegious among Denver fans, 'maybe' the Super Bowl appearances, not to mention the wins, were the aberration, rather than the birth right that so many fans seem to believe they were.

When you consider what it took to get to the three Super Bowls of the '80s, be it the Drive or the Fumble, or simply the super human play of John Elway, combined with the blowout losses.

When you consider the 'average' seasons both before and after the glory years of the late '90s, and that great "this one's for John" moment, you begin to see that many Denver fans have a distorted sense of reality. A belief that for Denver, anything short of the Super Bowl is a failure. That unlike every other franchise in the NFL, in Denver having a winning season is meaningless accomplishment -- simply making the playoffs is no better than a losing season.

It might seem like pumping out winning seasons is a simple feat, due to the Superman like play of John Elway, and Shanahan's ability to rebuild and completely turn over a team's roster multiple times without back to back losing seasons, not to mention avoiding the dreaded two to five win seasons that most franchises have every 5-10 years as they 'rebuild'.

However, the fact is that as fans we were 'lucky' to have a Hall of Fame quarterback carrying us to Super Bowl appearances, and regular season wins, that we had no right achieving, and a head coach that in 14 years has accomplished more than many coaches do in an entire career.

In Shanahan's 14 years, he has two Super Bowl wins, 7 playoff appearances and only two losing seasons. A stat line that few head coaches can match over any 14 year time frame.

Winning seasons might seem like a 'simple feat', because it has occurred so often in Denver over the last 26 years. While the franchise has been fortunate enough to have two great men responsible for those wins, just because Elway and Shanahan have been far more successful than their peers, shouldn't be confused with a belief that Denver is 'different' than other franchises.

Instead of falsely believing Denver has somehow been granted a divine right of superiority over other NFL franchises, Denver fans need to relish these eight and nine win seasons, not to mention any playoff appearances that we may have, regardless of the final outcome, because while Denver has experienced an amazing 25 year run of success, it will someday come to an end. At some point, the normal NFL cycles will once again apply to Denver. Just as they have applied to the once great Niners, the up and down "America's team", the darling Patriots, the NY Giants who have won the Super Bowl twice in the last 22 years, but have had eight losing seasons in between those wins (including six seasons of 6 or fewer wins).

The list goes on.

It seems the vicious cycle of losing applies to every NFL team except Denver.

Somehow Denver has been granted a 'right' to win every year, unlike every other team. A birthright, it would seem.

Unfortunately, while the last twenty five years might have lulled us into this false belief, it simply isn't true. There has been no divine birthright placed upon the Mile High city, but instead we have had one hell of a run that far too many fans have taken for granted.

Enjoy these good times while you have them, even if you don't 'realize' they are in fact good times. Contrary to what you might believe...

Winning in Denver Isn't a birthright.

Slick
12-28-2008, 02:25 PM
Great read Tned.

BroncoJoe
12-28-2008, 02:35 PM
Did you write that Tned? If so, I :salute: you.

If not, great find.

Tned
12-28-2008, 02:37 PM
Did you write that Tned? If so, I :salute: you.

If not, great find.

Yea, some thoughts I typed out this morning. Killing time with a late kickoff :D

girler
12-28-2008, 02:38 PM
Denver fans really are totally spoiled. The team of the late 90's was a dream come true. The culmination of Elway's dream career- a made for TV movie even. :laugh:

It sure is a hell of a lot of fun being spoiled! :beer: The only downside is the whining of The Spoiled when the spoiling is over. :tsk:

nevcraw
12-28-2008, 03:50 PM
Well Said.. I find it amazing how impatient and trully spoiled the Broncos fans are without any realization on how good we actually have it..

If we don't win tonight we will be reading the 100's of fire Shanny, Slowick, trade champ DJ etc. threads for ther next 7 months...

I am already not looking forward to offseason. Let's get atleast one more week!!!

Slick
12-28-2008, 04:04 PM
After reading this post again, I feel like I owe you more than a "good read" comment.

I agree wholeheartedly with your points here. We are damn lucky as fans to support this team. We have an owner who doesn't meddle like an Al Davis or a Jerry Jones, yet he is as invested as anyone, and he should be. He also helps to shape league policies during the off-season, and I consider him one of the league's finest owners.

We have an outstanding coach, a fine stadium, and that combination allows us to be competitive almost every year.

If you'd have told me before the season had started that we'd be playing the last game of this season with shot at the division and playoffs, I wouldn't have believed you. Add in all the injuries and youth on this team and the odds were definitely against us.

I'm proud to be a Bronco fan regardless of what happens tonight.

AlWilsonizKING
12-28-2008, 05:39 PM
Coudn't agree more T.

I was born on the bandwagon and have never gotten off since.....even when we lost to the Niners in the SB ON MY BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!!!

Broncos will always be my favorite team win or lose!!!!!



PEACE!!!

broncophan
12-28-2008, 06:07 PM
Those of us ,like myself, who have been a bronco fan fo 31 years understand how fortunate we are, when it comes to football and having a franchise like the broncos to root for.

Many teams have had losing season after losing season, teams pack up and leave town,change coaches every 2 or 3 years, Superbowl appearances every 20 or 25 years.etc.......................yea I would say we are lucky to be bronco fans........just look around at many of the other franchises.

With that being said........I still don't want another prime time embarrassment tonight....:D

GO BRONCOS.......

Tned
12-28-2008, 07:45 PM
Those of us ,like myself, who have been a bronco fan fo 31 years understand how fortunate we are, when it comes to football and having a franchise like the broncos to root for.

Many teams have had losing season after losing season, teams pack up and leave town,change coaches every 2 or 3 years, Superbowl appearances every 20 or 25 years.etc.......................yea I would say we are lucky to be bronco fans........just look around at many of the other franchises.

With that being said........I still don't want another prime time embarrassment tonight....:D

GO BRONCOS.......

For me, it has only been about 23 years, but during that time I have seen many fans of other franchises that start the season with statements like, "I think the Cowboys can win at least 6 this year...." How often as Broncos fans have we been in a situation where 6 was the over/under on wins for the season?

Whether it has been due to Elway, Bowlen, Shanahan, all of them, luck or some other reason, we have been extremely fortunate since the mid '80s and many of us don't really understand how lucky/fortunate we have been, and how many fans from other teams would love to have only four (yes 4) losing seasons in the last 26 years.

Tned
12-31-2008, 03:53 AM
In light of what happened today, I think this thread is even more appropriate. There is a very real chance that we will rotate through a number of head coaches over the next 5-10 years, and have a number of REALLY bad seasons along the way. The kind that make .500 look like heaven.

Obviously, I hope that isn't the case. I hope that Bowlen finds a manager and GM that takes the offensive talent we have, and quickly shores up the defense and turns us into contenders, but the history of the NFL shows that this scenario rarely plays out.

The more typical scenario is that a head coach comes in, implements his ideas/schemes, of which there is an adjustment period. The GM brings in players to fit the scheme. Success doesn't come right away, but instead there is a short term down turn (3, 4 or 5 win seasons), and the head coach gets fired. Then, the process repeats itself.

That is what nearly every franchise in the NFL, it might be safe to say every franchise in the NFL, has endured over the last 25 years, except for the couple years under Wade Phillips.

silkamilkamonico
12-31-2008, 04:02 AM
You're right, winning in Denver isn't a birthright.

What happens when organizations aren't winning? They move on and look elsewhere.

I don't understand some of you're guys' logic, that because Shanahan had a great stretch of 4 years, Denver is "fortunate". Denver 'was' fortunate 10 years ago. That fortune has clearly run out, and the results of the past 10 years speak for themselves.

BroncoTech
12-31-2008, 06:15 AM
I don't understand some of you're guys' logic, that because Shanahan had a great stretch of 4 years, Denver is "fortunate". Denver 'was' fortunate 10 years ago. That fortune has clearly run out, and the results of the past 10 years speak for themselves.


Been a fan since 63. Over the 45 years I've seen them come and go. 4 years ago we were 13-3 and why we dismantled that I'll never know. But I remember the day we hired Mike, the days he got us 2 rings and I'll remember this day, the day he was fired. I think back in the 60's we would have killed to be 8-8. Today it's not good enough. Life is a wheel and what goes around comes around. We'll see good times again.

scott.475
12-31-2008, 09:35 AM
Good initial read, and while we have a certain expectation that our team will win more than lose, I don't think most of us view it as a birthright. Aren't there only two or three teams that have been in more SBs than us? That will set up a certain standard of expectation. Better to have an expectation of winning than to be like those poor Detroit, Arizona (usually), and other teams fans who are more surprised by winning than they are by losing!

Northman
12-31-2008, 09:39 AM
Yea, some thoughts I typed out this morning. Killing time with a late kickoff :D

Well done and on the money.

Shazam!
12-31-2008, 10:10 AM
Dan Reeves never won a Championship with the Broncos, but he fielded some competitive teams that were pretty good including 3 AFC Champions. He was fired after an 8-8 season, that was largely due to John Elway's injury in 1992.

Wade Phillips was his replacement (Shanahan was the first choice) for 1993. While the Offense was improved and Elway had one of his best years then, the defense went from bad to worse (dead last in the League,) and Phillips was fired after going 9-7 and 7-9, and one Playoff loss to LA (Oakland) where Jeff Hostetler looked like, well, John Elway.

24-24 over a three year span was unacceptable back then.
Now 24-24 has become acceptable under Shanahan now.

Mike Shanahan came to a team filled with holes but they had talent in spots, who's leader was a superstar QB. He turned the Broncos into what was then called an 'NFC style' team with the West Coast Offense, power running game, and a solid, attacking defense. The Broncos were with the times back then, but now they are not. The NFL has evolved since then and so has the whole AFC, and the Broncos have not. KC and Oakland won't be awful forever either.

The Broncos stagnant mediocrity has rubbed off on the fans. Like the Thread made by TNed (no offense bro I got mad respect) 'Winning isn't a Birthright.' I don't expect the Broncos to win a Championship every year. I want to see them play hard, beat teams they're supposed to beat and play with pride. I don't expect them to win every game. All I can hope for is that they play solid football... Have they? Not on defense, even the basic fundamentals aren't there. Denver's newfound mediocrity has been accepted by the fans, and that is not good. Last Season, CBS went away from the Broncos game because they were getting shellacked so badly. Over 20 years watching the Broncos, I have never seen a network do that. It's embarrassing.

Even the NY Jets, who haven't won a Championship in over 30 years, fired their Coach today for losing the Division after leading it for 11 weeks and not making the Playoffs. Jerry Jones, the Cowboys owner who most people can't stand, realizes his team's 9-7 finish is unacceptable. If the Patriots went 24-24, would they keep Bill Bellichick? No. Why has it become acceptable for the Broncos to be mediocre and SD's yearly whipping boy, when they won't win anything themselves? It reminds me a lot of the days of the Oakland/LA Raiders vs. Denver, when even Al Davis proclaimed aloud in public, 'They're (Denver) scared to death of us.' teams are showing Denver no respect, and it is sadly deserving.

Once upon a time not too long ago, this was thought to be one of the elite franchises in the NFL, an example for other teams to strive to mirror. A team full of history with a winning tradition. That has changed. This tradition has somehow been diluted under Shanahan's stagnant leadership. Back in the 90's when Shanahan first took over, motivation, leadership and example wasn't hard to find. This was John Elway's team. Later on, when the remnants of the Championship teams were gone, Rod Smith provided the leadership and example. Who does that today? This team has none under Shanahan. He isn't a motivator.

Shanahan's ego was so big, he dismantled a 13-3 team, who was his best team in the post-Elway era. I was never a fan of Jake Plummer's mistake-prone play. I hated his arrival in Denver and threw up my hands. I was delighted with the pick of Cutler and I think he has a brilliant future. But Shanahan totally betrayed Jake after his best season as a pro and literally killed his career and destroyed his confidence. That's how you treat your 13-3 QB? WTF? Who does that?

Bill Parcells has turned around 3 (yes, THREE) 1-15 teams into Playoff teams in one season. There is no reason to believe Mike Shanahan can ever do that. Ever.

I know I know, people say there is nobody out there to replace him with. Look at the crop of Playoff teams out there this season. There are a few first year coaches and second year coaches. People used to say Tom Coughlin was a crappy Coach, but he is a favorite to lead the NY Giants to their second Super Bowl.

I am truly grateful for what Mike Shanahan has given the Broncos and John Elway in 97-98. But enough is enough, that was 10 years ago. The world has changed and so has the NFL. The defense is an embarrassment, Denver needs a feature Back desperately and they need a new regime of conditioning to avoid these catastrphic injuries.

A post I made in another thread. Mediocrity has been accepted by the fans under Shanahan, but hasn't been accepted with Pat Bowlen.

This situation almost mirrors the 1994 Broncos team. .500 over three years. Potent passing game. Great QB (Cut isn't Elway and needs work, but he is.) No running game. Awful on defense and personnel. New direction needed.

Barring a horrendous Head Coaching pick, Denver will be fine. This is the best Coaching choice for any candidate.

Northman
12-31-2008, 10:19 AM
A post I made in another thread. Mediocrity has been accepted by the fans under Shanahan, but hasn't been accepted with Pat Bowlen.




Complete BS. Fans just have an understanding that Rome wasnt built in a day.

Shazam!
12-31-2008, 10:24 AM
Oh PLEASE. Already fans were looking at the 2009 schedule and saying 'We'd be lucky if we finish .500 with this murderous schedule.' This was exactly what I was talking about. So it'd be Denver in 2010?

It is Shanahan's fault for dismantling the 2005 Broncos, his best post-Elway team and throwing Plummer under the bus. I'm not saying drafting Cutler was a mistake, but by not assuring Jake that QB was HIS job and Cutler was the future, he sabotaged his career and the team.

Northman
12-31-2008, 11:37 AM
Oh PLEASE. Already fans were looking at the 2009 schedule and saying 'We'd be lucky if we finish .500 with this murderous schedule.' This was exactly what I was talking about. So it'd be Denver in 2010?

It is Shanahan's fault for dismantling the 2005 Broncos, his best post-Elway team and throwing Plummer under the bus. I'm not saying drafting Cutler was a mistake, but by not assuring Jake that QB was HIS job and Cutler was the future, he sabotaged his career and the team.

Again, more BS. Shanny told Jake he was the QB. Jake couldnt handle the pressure and folded in the very first game against the Rams. At least get you facts straight if your going to crucify the guy. :rolleyes:

LordTrychon
12-31-2008, 11:41 AM
A post I made in another thread. Mediocrity has been accepted by the fans under Shanahan, but hasn't been accepted with Pat Bowlen.

This situation almost mirrors the 1994 Broncos team. .500 over three years. Potent passing game. Great QB (Cut isn't Elway and needs work, but he is.) No running game. Awful on defense and personnel. New direction needed.

Barring a horrendous Head Coaching pick, Denver will be fine. This is the best Coaching choice for any candidate.

I think it's more similar to the two years before getting Plummer and going to the playoffs three years in a row. Nearly making it to the big game.

Reload... come back.

Without going 4-12.

I was looking forward to making the next step forward, since this team was obviously on the brink of being playoff bound.

Shazam!
12-31-2008, 11:45 AM
If Denver had won the division as it should have, avoided the meltdown even if they got blown out by Indy and beaten one of the horrendous teams it lost badly to this Season, Shanahan would be back. No question.

Nomad
12-31-2008, 11:52 AM
All great coaches come and go! Denver needs change at the helm and I expect Denver to have some rougher years ahead. It would be silly to think they will win every year. Oh well, no use crying over the ifs, ands, and buts because it's done and hopefully Bowlen hires the right people.

Bring Elway Back
12-31-2008, 12:00 PM
If Denver had won the division as it should have, avoided the meltdown even if they got blown out by Indy and beaten one of the horrendous teams it lost badly to this Season, Shanahan would be back. No question.

He would have def been back had they won the division. But a lack of division championships has been his downfall. Time for some new blood as far as this fan is concerned.

BroncosRockdaRockies
12-31-2008, 12:07 PM
If Denver had won the division as it should have, avoided the meltdown even if they got blown out by Indy and beaten one of the horrendous teams it lost badly to this Season, Shanahan would be back. No question.

Actually the reports from a reporter for the Broncos said just the opposite.

Mike wouldv'e been gone even if making it to the playoffs and losing first round. Bottom line Mike did not get the personel needed to make this a team. He made it an Offense he did not make it a Defense and it cost him his job. And he had his chance and he fumbled. And he has said many times after countless games this year if you lose the turnover battle you will lose the game and he lost the turnover battle.

Although don't mistake my statement as a shanahan hater because that is far from the truth. But I am a Bronco supporter and it is a business and he was a GM and Coach the GM got fired not the Coach but at the same time since he wore both hats you cannot keep one and expect the other to overcome when it is the same person.

We need the D back in enver and it wasn't happening with Shanahan and anyone who has watched over the years of the Shanahan era you would see this because unfortunately it was Obvious. We need teams to be forced to gameplan against our Defense not be able to keep up with our Offense and to me that is what it boils down.

Superchop 7
12-31-2008, 05:26 PM
Great Post.

IMO, this is how it will go.

Good year next year, then mediocre, then bad.

Where the players knew not to cross the line, they will cross it like never before.

In the end......chaos.

People do not understand how difficult it is to win in the league.

Is this gonna bite Pat in the ass ?

Yeah.......big time.

Tned
12-31-2008, 05:40 PM
I think it's more similar to the two years before getting Plummer and going to the playoffs three years in a row. Nearly making it to the big game.

Reload... come back.

Without going 4-12.



This the part that many Broncos fans, especially those that became fans in the last 12-14 years (or those with short memories), don't seem to realize.

Very few, maybe NO other, coaches have managed to reload teams without going 4-12 or 3-14 or 1-15.

Tned
12-31-2008, 05:42 PM
If Denver had won the division as it should have, avoided the meltdown even if they got blown out by Indy and beaten one of the horrendous teams it lost badly to this Season, Shanahan would be back. No question.

Name one other team in the history of the NFL to put 7 RBs on IR, 6 during the season (lets discount Aldridge)?

broncophan
12-31-2008, 05:42 PM
Great Post.

IMO, this is how it will go.

Good year next year, then mediocre, then bad.

Where the players knew not to cross the line, they will cross it like never before.

In the end......chaos.

People do not understand how difficult it is to win in the league.

Is this gonna bite Pat in the ass ?

Yeah.......big time.

How do you think we will have a good year next year??........hell....we don't even have a head coach.....and when we do it will be a new coach.

If we get new offensive coaches as well.......then it will get ugly.....Cutler was just learning the current offense................the last thing the kid needs is another new offense to learn.

broncophan
12-31-2008, 05:44 PM
Name one other team in the history of the NFL to put 7 RBs on IR, 6 during the season (lets discount Aldridge)?


Yea.....I wish a reporter would have asked Bowlen if he took into consideration, the fact that we had 7 RB on IR......

Northman
12-31-2008, 05:45 PM
How do you think we will have a good year next year??........hell....we don't even have a head coach.....and when we do it will be a new coach.

If we get new offensive coaches as well.......then it will get ugly.....Cutler was just learning the current offense................the last thing the kid needs is another new offense to learn.


Because Curry will cure all.

Tned
12-31-2008, 05:50 PM
Yea.....I wish a reporter would have asked Bowlen if he took into consideration, the fact that we had 7 RB on IR......

I'm torn on the decision, so I am not bashing Bowlen for making it. There is a big part of me that thinks it is time for a change, but I think it is very likely (based on the history of the NFL), that we could be in for a rough time, possibly seeing 2-4 different head coaches over the next 10 years, with numerous very bad seasons. Hopefully not, but that is what usually happens.

Anyway, the other issue is the LB corp. For a good portion of the season, the entire startng linebacking corp was out. People that say, "well they sucked anyway", my answer is that isn't an answer. The fact is they were the starters. They were the players that were game planned for, and Boss was lost of the season, DJ a large portion of the season and Webster for what 4 games?

Champ out for 7 games, and limping in the ones when he came back. Yea, some say, "Champs always missing games with injuries." Not sure where that comes from, since he has only missed a handful of games in his career prior to this year.

So, as some of said, you can argue that Mike did the best coaching job of his career being 8-8 this year.

broncophan
12-31-2008, 05:58 PM
I'm torn on the decision, so I am not bashing Bowlen for making it. There is a big part of me that thinks it is time for a change, but I think it is very likely (based on the history of the NFL), that we could be in for a rough time, possibly seeing 2-4 different head coaches over the next 10 years, with numerous very bad seasons. Hopefully not, but that is what usually happens.

Anyway, the other issue is the LB corp. For a good portion of the season, the entire startng linebacking corp was out. People that say, "well they sucked anyway", my answer is that isn't an answer. The fact is they were the starters. They were the players that were game planned for, and Boss was lost of the season, DJ a large portion of the season and Webster for what 4 games?

Champ out for 7 games, and limping in the ones when he came back. Yea, some say, "Champs always missing games with injuries." Not sure where that comes from, since he has only missed a handful of games in his career prior to this year.

So, as some of said, you can argue that Mike did the best coaching job of his career being 8-8 this year.

Yea.....as I said in another thread.....I don't agree w/ the decision......but I am proud that they both were very professional at the presser......although I expected that.

The "last 3 years" and a record of 24-24 keeps being brought up......I don't understand why though.

Even with no injuries..........with a new qb........I wonder what kind of record was expected.??????????????....Cutler was improving.........

Although I think looking at the schedule for next season......I thought it looks like another 7-9 or 8-8 season.............without Shanahan......and now with a different coach ...........it will be worse.....imo

Tned
12-31-2008, 06:01 PM
Yea.....as I said in another thread.....I don't agree w/ the decision......but I am proud that they both were very professional at the presser......although I expected that.

The "last 3 years" and a record of 24-24 keeps being brought up......I don't understand why though.

Even with no injuries..........with a new qb........I wonder what kind of record was expected.??????????????....Cutler was improving.........

Although I think looking at the schedule for next season......I thought it looks like another 7-9 or 8-8 season.............without Shanahan......and now with a different coach ...........it will be worse.....imo

I think Shanahan's ability to get a winning, or at worst .500 season, at of almost any team he put on the field (only two exceptions in 14 years), actually works against him. Other teams/coaches wind up up with the 2 or 4 win seasons, which allows fans to 'adjust' to a mindset that the team will be bad for a few years, but will hopefully come out the better for it.

However, when your 'horrible' years amount to being .500 as you transition to a new QB, new offensive line, completely remake your offense, and then start on remaking your defense, then it is seen as a failure.

broncophan
12-31-2008, 06:20 PM
I think Shanahan's ability to get a winning, or at worst .500 season, at of almost any team he put on the field (only two exceptions in 14 years), actually works against him. Other teams/coaches wind up up with the 2 or 4 win seasons, which allows fans to 'adjust' to a mindset that the team will be bad for a few years, but will hopefully come out the better for it.

However, when your 'horrible' years amount to being .500 as you transition to a new QB, new offensive line, completely remake your offense, and then start on remaking your defense, then it is seen as a failure.

Yep.....I think you are right on....

140 some wins with Shanahan...
110 some wins with Reeves......

Not many.....if any other franchise can say that about from their last 2 out of 3 head coaches

Broncolingus
12-31-2008, 06:39 PM
IMO it was time for change...

Shanny was (prob still is) a great coach...I don't think he's a good GM.

I don't think Shanny would've gone 'back' to being just a coach...

Get Pioli and any coach (and I know it's not just that easy) that understands winning the physical battles in the trenches is the way to consistently be playing in Jan and we're on the right track...

Physical and Pressure oriented...that's the real 'change' that's needed in Denver on both sides of the ball.

Gimpygod
12-31-2008, 06:47 PM
Anyway, the other issue is the LB corp. For a good portion of the season, the entire startng linebacking corp was out. People that say, "well they sucked anyway", my answer is that isn't an answer. The fact is they were the starters. They were the players that were game planned for, and Boss was lost of the season, DJ a large portion of the season and Webster for what 4 games?

Champ out for 7 games, and limping in the ones when he came back. Yea, some say, "Champs always missing games with injuries." Not sure where that comes from, since he has only missed a handful of games in his career prior to this year.

So, as some of said, you can argue that Mike did the best coaching job of his career being 8-8 this year.

I can't agree with you on this point, our defense actually played better for a spell when we were forced to play without Webster & Co..

Tned
12-31-2008, 06:54 PM
I can't agree with you on this point, our defense actually played better for a spell when we were forced to play without Webster & Co..

Completely seperate issue. I agree that Larsen, Woodyard and company played well. However, that doesn't change the fact that losing your entire starting linebacking corp is a major blow and is disruptive. DJ wears the communication helmet, so losing him is a disruption. I'm not a big Webster fan, but he is the one that had practiced with the first team, so while guys like Larsen flew around the field, they were also out of position at times.

14 guys on IR (or whatever the final number is), just can't be overlooked.