Reality

[CoachChaz]

I can understand the current fetish for Wes Woodyard, but believe me...a 200 pound linebacker will NOT last very long in the NFL. If he is going to be a regular on the field, it's going to have to be at safety. Reality

[roomemp]

I could see him as the WLB. He is bigger than 200.

[CoachChaz]

I could see him as the WLB. He is bigger than 200.

No...they list him bigger than 200. But I guarantee you he is in the 200-205 range. Even Winborn is bigger than he is

[G_Money]

Why not?

I mean, we talked in the offseason about how much we’d like to see Woodyard at safety for the Broncos – before the draft, actually – but the man can play the weak-side.

Let’s say Wesley’s playing about 215. He looked a little bigger in pre-season, about Winborn’s 225-230, but he looks leaner than that now. I don’t think he’s the 200 you think he is, so let’s split the difference.

Is it a strength concern for you?

A “can’t survive being blocked” concern?

An endurance concern?

An injury concern?

Woodyard’s not a muscler. He’s not gonna throw fullbacks around like toothpicks. My concern with him would be about fighting through blocks and making tough tackles on guys instead of weak arm-grabs as the dude runs past. Woodyard thus far has not been an arm-tackler. He doesn’t have the pythons to be one, and he knows it, so he actually TACKLES people. It’s a crazy thought, I know, but apparently a couple of the rookies share this philosophy. I’m sure the Broncos will try to break them of it soon enough.

He’ll be in trouble if a huge lineman gets paws on him, no doubt. So will the rest of our backers. The only strong one we’ve got is Larsen. DJ gets eaten up by blockers too, which is one reason he’s such a baby about playing on the strong side even though he’s our biggest LB. Woodyard has weaknesses. He also has strengths. You just accept that and get him a DE on his side who can own his man. Woodyard behind Dumervil is a liability in the run game, perhaps, but Doom is his own liability as well.

Endurance? He does seem to have lost weight while playing this year, but most rookies have trouble with the long season their first time around. I’d let him wear down first before deciding he will, because he ran further and did more in his SEC career than most backers ever will, and seemed to have plenty of endurance as those seasons closed. Maybe tacking a few games on will tax him too much, but I’d like to see it first.

Injury? Wesley’s not the one who hasn’t stayed healthy this year. Again, maybe he won’t in full-time play, but he played A LOT in college without breaking down. It’s not like he’s Boss Bailey just yet.

What is it about those magical 15 pounds that will prevent him from playing the weak-side?

It’s not ideal, but Sam Mills wasn’t ideal either. He was just damn good. Every time Woodyard plays the Will he shines. At first I thought he’d have to be a safety conversion too, but I’ve come around. If we have to play him at safety, do that. If he’s gonna play Will, then play him there.

He sure looks more comfortable at the Will, but that’s to be expected. I’m not gonna say he can’t do it, because he took over for our best linebacker and the play didn’t drop off at all.

And I can’t see the huge difference those pounds are gonna make. Do I wish he weighed 235, 240 while still being the player he is? Sure.

But I’d rather take the football player than the body style.

~G

[broncofaninfla]

I agree G, the guy makes plays bottom line and his inspired play motivates others around.

[CoachChaz]

The first problem we have is DJ has the Will spot. Unless we plan on moving our best linebacker, that spot is closed. So what does that leave for Wes? He definately isnt going to play the Mike or Sam...so what do we do? Trade DJ? On a team that has literally ONE viable backer, we want to trade him to make room for an undrafted rookie that had a few good games subbing for him?

The weakside is the only spot that DJ is successful at and it's the only spot that Wes can play. So we have 2 choices. Play Wes at safety or get rid of DJ. Maybe I'm crazy, but getting rid of one of the 2 solid players you have on a miserbale defense borders on lunacy.

[Dean]

Measurables don't make the player. It is what he does under "live fire" that counts. So far, WWIII has come through. He may get moved to safety permanently but because we are weak at safety not because he can't play the Will LB.

[CoachChaz]

ANNOUNCEMENT:

DJ Williams plays WILL for the Denver Broncos and will not play a different LB position.

[G_Money]

The first problem we have is DJ has the Will spot. Unless we plan on moving our best linebacker, that spot is closed. So what does that leave for Wes? He definately isnt going to play the Mike or Sam...so what do we do? Trade DJ? On a team that has literally ONE viable backer, we want to trade him to make room for an undrafted rookie that had a few good games subbing for him?

The weakside is the only spot that DJ is successful at and it's the only spot that Wes can play. So we have 2 choices. Play Wes at safety or get rid of DJ. Maybe I'm crazy, but getting rid of one of the 2 solid players you have on a miserbale defense borders on lunacy.

Okay, but that has nothing to do with Woodyard’s weight.

If you’re saying he won’t play Will for US, then I can definitely side with you and say I think that’s true. It puts egg on our face that we gave DJ a bunch of money to do a job that a rookie can do for pennies on the dollar, but we’re not gonna back away from it.

DJ is our Will for at least the next couple of years still.

Personally I would try for a safety conversion with Wesley, see what happens, and then put him back as DJ’s backup if he can’t do it. It’s not the worst thing to have a quality player backing up a quality player. It just sucks for us because we have so few quality players on defense that we’d like all of them to be on the field as starters. I’d like to to get Wes on the field more, but if it can’t happen then it can’t happen. As you say he’s not playing Mike or Sam for us – or for anybody – so it’s either the Weakside backup or the starting SS for him.

None of that means that he CAN’T play Will in the pros at a very high level. He just can’t do it for us with DJ there.

~G

[muse]

ANNOUNCEMENT:

DJ Williams plays WILL for the Denver Broncos and will not play a different LB position.

The thing is that DJ has openly said that he loved playing Mike last year. It all comes down to the MLB situation really: Webster may not be resigned and Niko is all over the shop. It really depends on whether the coaches think Woodyard can be that guy at Will. It also depends whether the coaches think that Larsen fits in with our plans for LB. He's slower than the ideal Broncos backer but he played very well when he filled in and has shown some leadership quality. If he continues to split time at LB/FB then we'll know the coaches don't consider him as the answer to the MLB spot. Of course, if we draft an MLB high next year, it's also a sign that the coaches think Woodyard is not starting material.

[CoachChaz]

Put a few pounds on him and I'd definately be happier, but i just dont see him lasting very long and taking the beating at his current weight. Say what you will, but I highly dount he's anything over 215 and that may be generous at the moment.

...and I'm not going to pretend that weight has nothing to do with a players position. If that's the case, I dont want to hear anyone complain about Moss and his ability to add weight anymore.

[MOtorboat]

The thing is that DJ has openly said that he loved playing Mike last year. It all comes down to the MLB situation really: Webster may not be resigned and Niko is all over the shop. It really depends on whether the coaches think Woodyard can be that guy at Will. It also depends whether the coaches think that Larsen fits in with our plans for LB. He's slower than the ideal Broncos backer but he played very well when he filled in and has shown some leadership quality. If he continues to split time at LB/FB then we'll know the coaches don't consider him as the answer to the MLB spot. Of course, if we draft an MLB high next year, it's also a sign that the coaches think Woodyard is not starting material.

But he's elite at WLB, and average at MLB.

I've said this all along with him, moving him around isn't good for this team. If you move him to MLB to fill a hole, then you're left with a hole at WLB, which just defeats the purpose of moving him. And yes, Woodyard would still be considered a hole in the defense, imo, at least for now. I liked what I saw too, but it was a period of five games.

[CoachChaz]

I guess what I dont understand is that everyone seems to be so high on DJ and Champ obviously, then on how great WW, Larsen and Barrett are playing...but the defense still sucks.

Should all the blame go on the line? Or is it a simple case of us being so use to the pathetic side of mediocrity that any time a different name comes along and does a thing or two that we havent seen in awhile, we are inclined to label him as the new Messiah.

[Foochacho]

I guess what I dont understand is that everyone seems to be so high on DJ and Champ obviously, then on how great WW, Larsen and Barrett are playing...but the defense still sucks.

Should all the blame go on the line? Or is it a simple case of us being so use to the pathetic side of mediocrity that any time a different name comes along and does a thing or two that we havent seen in awhile, we are inclined to label him as the new Messiah.

I've often wondered this myself. A fresh turd can really stand out when surrounded by old dried up turds.

[G_Money]

Put a few pounds on him and I'd definately be happier, but i just dont see him lasting very long and taking the beating at his current weight. Say what you will, but I highly dount he's anything over 215 and that may be generous at the moment.

...and I'm not going to pretend that weight has nothing to do with a players position. If that's the case, I dont want to hear anyone complain about Moss and his ability to add weight anymore.

If Moss was getting 8-10 sacks while constantly pressuring the QB I wouldn't be complaining, even if he was weaker against the run.

But unlike Woodyard, Moss CAN'T do his job on the field at his current weight. Maybe he just can't do his job period. It’s not his weight holding him back, it’s his talent. Woodyard is not having that problem.

As for why our defense is terrible…

Woodyard is great in space. DJ is also great in space. Champ obviously CAN play, but even in this last game he was maybe 80%. We’ll have to wait for next year to see what kind of an impact he can make with whatever new players and coaches we get. Barrett’s still learning.

But Bly is being savaged playing in a defense that shows all his worst attributes (ie, bad tackling and taking unnecessary risks while not being the greatest cover corner). Winborn is an acceptable backup being forced to be a starter and playmaker, and Webster should be in a soup line or have a ST-only gig instead of being a starting LB. Our non-Barrett safeties have been ATROCIOUS. And our DL can stop the run sometimes and rush the passer never.

There is ONE thing our DL does: play well in short-yardage. So KNOWING that they cannot rush the passer, what do we do 90% of the time? Let 4 (or THREE) of them try to rush the passer on 3rd and 7. Amazingly, the opposition gets a first down pretty much every time.

Some of that is on the DL for not being able to get to the passer without help.

Some of is has to be on the DC for knowingly putting them in position for 15 straight weeks to fail, without possibility of success.

We need DL help. We need safety help.

We need LB help.

And we need coaching help.

Champ is a great player who’s missed half the season with injury. Barrett just started to get on the field 2 weeks ago. Woodyard and Larsen played a few weeks and improved the D, then submerged again when injuries caught up with Larsen and health caught up with DJ.

And we don’t really have anybody else. When there isn’t one of your talented players that has been on the field every game, and all but one of them have missed half the season or more, you probably can’t be successful even in the better schemes.

We have one of the worst, so naturally we’re one of the worst defenses.

I wouldn’t call Larsen or Woodyard a messiah, but they are professional football players, something our defense was sorely lacking in before they got here. Barrett looks like another one.

And yeah, after a season of watching the 3 stooges play safety for us it sure is a breath of fresh air to see competence on nearly every play from some rookies.

The question is whether their talent level stops at competence or not. Is DJ competent or excellent? Larsen? Woodyard? Barrett?

I think we can safely say Champ exceeds competence just by breathing, and that DJ has moments of competence and moments of greatness. For the rest?

That’ll sure be something that needs to be sorted out before we start drafting and signing FAs. I think Woodyard exceeds competence. I think Barrett will, but doesn’t yet. I think Larsen is the very definition of a competent pro, so I have him slotted as a great backup and ST guy while I look for excellence at that position.

I think the definition of Incompetence is running the defense, though, so it’s hard to say how much competence our players will ever show while playing under him. Slowik has reduced Champ’s HOF-caliber play to merely average with his scheme. Imagine how bad competent players can look in it.

Who knows, we may find more competent pros once we remove the drooling imbecile behind the curtain.

~G

[MOtorboat]

As usual...a great analysis of the problem, G...

What I'm afraid of this offseason is Shanahan falling in love with some offensive player in the draft in rounds one and two, like he did last season (But those did work out), us not being able to attract the d-lineman we covet on the open market, and the linebacking coaches falling in love with Woodyard at WLB, Williams at MLB and Boss Bailey at SLB, and then we're stuck with no d-line help, Woodyard trying to be the full-time starter, Bailey injured in Week 2 and Williams playing his second-best position.

I can truly see that scenario working out in my head, in fact I'd almost bet that it might, and we're left with no real change on this team, and once again we're borderline 9-7, 10-6 playoff team, but more likely 7-9 or 8-8, second in the division and sitting at home the first Sunday in January.

[G_Money]

BTW, I think one of the great disservices done to our DL is our inability to teach them how to play their respective positions or give them any more tools to get the job done than they came to us with.

There’s more than one reason Crowder vanished, and Thomas is JAG, and Moss can’t find the quarterback with both hands and a flashlight.

Some of it may be on them, but some of it is certainly on their position coach.

None of them seems to have learned anything since college, and apparently the only technique we’ve given them is the try-harder speech while they bull-rush into the strength of the offensive line.

Since none of our DL have EVER learned anything from us, whether they were free-agents or draftpicks, young or old, and none of them in the last several years have turned into anyone…either we are terrible at adding DL talent or terrible at turning that talent into contributing players.

Maybe both.

But I’d sure like to fix at least one of those problems, or at least hear some acknowledgement that they ARE both problems.

~G

[G_Money]

I can see that happening, MB.

In that scenario though, I would hope that we would get our 10,000 yard RB and our Pro-Bowl safety, instead of like a slot receiver or TE. There are worse things than moving DJ to Mike, but I wouldn’t call it optimal.

It all depends on the package, though. Adding Moreno as our RB and Chung as our safety would make me feel like we got worthy players for those positions, even if it wasn’t at Mike or DL.

Better that than a few more Mosses and Crowders to fill out our inactive roster, anyway.

~G

[topscribe]

I guess what I dont understand is that everyone seems to be so high on DJ and Champ obviously, then on how great WW, Larsen and Barrett are playing...but the defense still sucks.

Should all the blame go on the line? Or is it a simple case of us being so use to the pathetic side of mediocrity that any time a different name comes along and does a thing or two that we havent seen in awhile, we are inclined to label him as the new Messiah.

Actually, the run defense was pretty good before Webster came back. Oh yes,
they gave up a long run here and there. But the Giants and Panthers did in
the game I watched last night, too. Point is, the rushing defense was getting
increasingly stingy with Larsen, Woodyard, and then Barrett in there.

The pass defense is where the defense is lacking. The Broncos need to
address essentially two areas in the offseason: D-line and safety -- pass rush
and deep cover from the safeties to help the corners.

Shanny has said Woodyard is faster than most strong safeties, and he is
amazingly athletic. Moreover, he was recognized for his superlative play at
safety when he was a freshman in college. So put him there, and leave him
there.

If they are going to move anybody, it should be Slowik . . . out the door. :nod:

-----

[CoachChaz]

Couldnt agree more, Top. Not only is WW's size more suited for safety, but it's also a position of more pressing need.

[Foochacho]

Woodyard has to move to safety,we have no other option. He is too talented to ride the pine.

I don't want to move DJ again. And I sure as hell don't want to put him on the trade block. If we did that I would kick in shanny's door and smack the shit out of him. We can't draft defensive talent, so when we finally do they better not trade it away.

I think woodyard and barrett could both be good safeties and Larsen should be mlb. We need to get the best Dlineman available on day one. Hopefully we can get one that can make an impact right away.

If woodyard, barrett, and larsen are given the whole offseason and camp to learn there positions they will be a huge improvement. If we can get some dline help next year our D will look a hell of alot different.

[G_Money]

Actually, the run defense was pretty good before Webster came back. Oh yes,
they gave up a long run here and there. But the Giants and Panthers did in
the game I watched last night, too. Point is, the rushing defense was getting
increasingly stingy with Larsen, Woodyard, and then Barrett in there.

The pass defense is where the defense is lacking. The Broncos need to
address essentially two areas in the offseason: D-line and safety -- pass rush
and deep cover from the safeties to help the corners.

Shanny has said Woodyard is faster than most strong safeties, and he is
amazingly athletic. Moreover, he was recognized for his superlative play at
safety when he was a freshman in college. So put him there, and leave him
there.

If they are going to move anybody, it should be Slowik . . . out the door. :nod:

-----

Yep. My ideal would be to get Spikes or Laurinaitis to play MLB for us, move Woodyard to strong safety, and use our 2nd rounder on either a great RB or a great DL.

After swapping out Slowik for one of the DCs that should be on the market, anyway.

I think Wes can do it, and do it well.

If the Broncos decided to move DJ inside, keep Woodyard at the Will, draft a safety like Chung or Moore and go with a first-day back or DL, I could also see that as a workable solution. Maybe the DL we need is a first rounder, and we can get a better 2nd round safety than we can a MLB (definitely possible).

If we decide to draft a first-day cornerback and a TE, I’ll be pissed – but our draft day exploits have grown from abominable to stellar, so I doubt I’ll have to throw things.

I don’t move DJ around just to make room for Woodyard, but I do pay attention to Woodyard’s potential usefulness at 2 positions and try to maintain my flexibility come draft day.

~G

[muse]

I think this D would actually be vaguely competent if we had a proper DC who knew how to effectively use his personnel. The fact that our base D seems to be a soft zone despite having a defence which oozes speed suggests that Slowik hasn't the first clue.

I just love the way that on any given play he can put every single one of his players in a bad spot. For example:

Exhibit A) Let's say...3rd and 7. Well, we come out in a 4-3...at least Bob can put the right number of players on the field. Half the time in this situation we see Marquand sitting in the box. Why? I'm not sure, but I'd say either for fun or it may be some hilarious in-joke amongst the coaching staff. We have the rest of our DBs in cover 3. Except they line up so that they're already sitting in their zones. 12 yards behind the LOS (and thus 5 yards beyond the first down marker). This usually occurs with poor Josh Bell on whichever receiver made the Pro Bowl. The LBs sit about 2-3 yards in front of the LOS and huddle together, probably for warmth. Uncle Bob cares very much about his players' comfort. So, long story short, we send our 4 DL with no help. "Coach, should we attempt to use rips or swim moves? How about a stunt?" "Don't be ridiculous, Jarvis. Can't you see the OTs are scared by your freakish size?". This allows the opposing QB time to sit down, nap, roll a spliff, get high, come down and complete rehab before having to throw the ball. Marquand gets lost at the line of scrimmage (the aforementioned in-joke is so hilarious that the coaches forget to give him an assignment), the LBs all huddle around the TE over the middle (spreading the warmth). Inevitably, the QB gets an easy completion on an out route because Bell is given express instructions not to go near the first down marker ("it's electrified!") and we give up yet another first down.

That just about sums up our defensive scheme nicely because it happens every time. There are other great examples such as 3rd and 3 (inevitably completed to the tight end on an out because the LBs are told to line up in a penguin huddle 7 yards behind the line of scrimmage with the DBs once again in cover 3. Or how about the Panthers game with no pressure, 8 men in the box, DBs way off the LOS and Josh Barrett lined up in the Broncos endzone (or in row 18 when the Panthers were in the redzone) just in case? Then there was that great play with Barrett 40 yards deep and Bell in a short zone with nothing between them. Steve Smith goes for a fly route which Bell has to pick up to prevent a TD. If I were on that D I'd be getting pretty pissed off by now.

[CoachChaz]

Personally, I think DL is the most necessary area of improvement, but there just arent any pass rushers worthy of a round 1 pick...IMO.

[Dreadnought]

And piling on to what others have said directly or implied, Slowik and his scheme are such a disaster that I don't think we can even get a good read on what we already have on hand, who is salvagable, who is a total stiff (beyond Webster, McCree, Manual) or what have you.

I don't fully believe in "measurables" - I'll leave those to Al Davis - so I'm convinced that guys like Woodyard and Larsen simply belong on the field somewhere, somehow. Guys like that find a way to make plays. Of course, it would help some other guys to make plays if they were operating in a decent system that gave them a chance to succeed.

[CoachChaz]

I just dont think Crowder, Thomas and Robertson are as bad as they appear. moss is probably too small and he and Dumer and complete liabilities against the run.

[G_Money]

Personally, I think DL is the most necessary area of improvement, but there just arent any pass rushers worthy of a round 1 pick...IMO.

That’s my problem.

I don’t want a first-round developmental project who’s only a situational player to boot (see Moss, Jarvis).

If we go DL in the first round certainly, and probably first day period, I’d rather get another DT. There are some decent-motor DTs available in this draft.

And we have plenty of 2nd day picks. DL is a position I don’t mind aiming at with multiple 2nd day picks, trying to get some contributors. When half of them a destined to fail no matter how highly they are thought of in college, it’s one of the only positions I can get behind for that scatter-shot drafting strategy.

But first day picks, IMO, should be locks to be contributors and probable starters from day one. And it’s harder to bet that a DL will do that, ESPECIALLY a DE this year IMO. If you have a team that only needs a pass-rusher maybe you can take that shot, but we have many more needs than that.

It’s why I’d drop the farm on somebody like Suggs, just drive a dumptruck full of money up to his door, rather than try to find a pass-rusher in this draft. Get a bunch of motor-and-effort based DTs, and see what we can do with a new scheme.

Going DE/DT on the first day is my nightmare. Most likely two years from contributing, and the odds say at least one of them is a bust right out of the gate.

With a draft that has our other need positions (MLB, S, RB) available with quality first day picks, I’d have trouble swallowing the 2-DL scenario. I want at least one immediate improvement to the D with a first round pick, and we’d need to draft a non-trench player to get that.

~G

[G_Money]

I just dont think Crowder, Thomas and Robertson are as bad as they appear. moss is probably too small and he and Dumer and complete liabilities against the run.

I think Thomas goes under the competent heading, Robertson too - but not in this D.

Crowder...man, I have trouble putting any faith in a guy who can't even dress for games. I know we had the same problem getting Barrett off the PS, but Crowder's had a year on the field to show what he could do, and has been riding the pine all this year. That's not a good sign.

But in a different defense I think Thomas and Robertson are decent players.

~G

[Foochacho]

FA may be the only way we can get a dlineman to contribute right away. We need a pass rush and we need someone who can make an impact right away. This offense can be hot and we need a D. We don't even need a great D just one that can let our offense win occasionally without scoring 30- 40 points a game.

I don't think our D is that far off from this. A little pass rush and a DC with his head out of his ass and we have a team.

[CoachChaz]

Maybe Greg Hardy if I HAD to draft one, but I still have to wonder how much he benefits from playing with Jerry

[CoachChaz]

I think Thomas goes under the competent heading, Robertson too - but not in this D.

Crowder...man, I have trouble putting any faith in a guy who can't even dress for games. I know we had the same problem getting Barrett off the PS, but Crowder's had a year on the field to show what he could do, and has been riding the pine all this year. That's not a good sign.

But in a different defense I think Thomas and Robertson are decent players.

~G

...and it doesnt make sense. he played great last year. I cant figure out why he cant got on the field this year.

[topscribe]

I think Thomas goes under the competent heading, Robertson too - but not in this D.

Crowder...man, I have trouble putting any faith in a guy who can't even dress for games. I know we had the same problem getting Barrett off the PS, but Crowder's had a year on the field to show what he could do, and has been riding the pine all this year. That's not a good sign.

But in a different defense I think Thomas and Robertson are decent players.

~G

I believe Thomas is good in this defense. You said it takes a couple years for
a DT to become productive, and Shanny said it is usually the third year. Well,
Thomas is nearing the end of his second year, and he is doing fine, IMO.

Robertson is an elite DT, except for his knees. I believe they are causing him
more trouble than they have let on.

But I have to go along with what you say about getting a veteran in at that
position. I am a build-through-the-draft advocate, but the Broncos need help
on the D-line now. If they draft a MLB, bring in an experienced DT or two, and
ride with Barrett and Woodyard at safety, I believe the defense will be like
night and day from this year to the next.

IMHO.

-----

[MHCBill]

If Mike is going to try another D coordinator this offseason why not peruse the coaching staffs from Pittsburgh, or Baltimore, or Carolina, or New York Giants? Find a LB coach or Dline coach... a desciple if you would from one of these better run defensive teams. Granted, maybe going after a coaching assistant from a 3-4 base team isn't the right move if we don't have 3-4 type personel, but I think you get my point. It's time we find the next great D coordinator that is someone else's assistant at this time.

[Fan in Exile]

If Mike is going to try another D coordinator this offseason why not peruse the coaching staffs from Pittsburgh, or Baltimore, or Carolina, or New York Giants? Find a LB coach or Dline coach... a desciple if you would from one of these better run defensive teams. Granted, maybe going after a coaching assistant from a 3-4 base team isn't the right move if we don't have 3-4 type personel, but I think you get my point. It's time we find the next great D coordinator that is someone else's assistant at this time.

I would be okay with this but there are also going to be several proven D-coordinators losing their jobs as head coaches I wouldn't mind having one of them come in either.

[CoachChaz]

If Mike is going to try another D coordinator this offseason why not peruse the coaching staffs from Pittsburgh, or Baltimore, or Carolina, or New York Giants? Find a LB coach or Dline coach... a desciple if you would from one of these better run defensive teams. Granted, maybe going after a coaching assistant from a 3-4 base team isn't the right move if we don't have 3-4 type personel, but I think you get my point. It's time we find the next great D coordinator that is someone else's assistant at this time.

That would require Shanny abandoning his personal "Good Ole Boy System". Sorry...that wont happen

[G_Money]

I would be okay with this but there are also going to be several proven D-coordinators losing their jobs as head coaches I wouldn't mind having one of them come in either.

Off the top of my head:

- Crennel will be fired.
- Marvin Lewis will likely be fired.
- Nolan was fired.
- Word is Gregg Williams will be fired.
- Wade Phillips could be fired, especially if Cowher would take the job (no idea why he would with Jerry Jones hovering over him, but I guess you never know).
- Rivera isn’t going anywhere now in SD, especially since he’s a coach-in-waiting for whenever Norv bites the dust (c’mon, Chargers, give him another year…we’re throwing games trying to help you make that stupid decision).
- we likely lost the TB DB coach I like, since he’ll take over for Kiffin I’m guessing.
- The Giants don’t have an understudy in waiting. Their assistants are all either young or great position coaches, not coordinator material.
- Our old DC Robinson will be available.
- Our other old DC Coyer just spent a few years learning at the feet of Kiffin.
- The Eagles have a DB coach named McDermott worth taking a look at as a DC. He understands blitzes and everything.
- We could try for the Ravens DL coach Brooks, I guess, but he might get a promotion if Ryan gets one of these head jobs that’ll be opening up. Or Mattison, though his thin resume might not work.

There ARE options. LOTS of options. Some are better than others, all are better than Slowik.

Let’s not stick with Bob because we can’t find something better, huh? Cuz that would mean we were looking with our eyes shut, our ears plugged and our hands tied behind our backs.

Bad way to search, that.

~G

[Medford Bronco]

If Mike is going to try another D coordinator this offseason why not peruse the coaching staffs from Pittsburgh, or Baltimore, or Carolina, or New York Giants? Find a LB coach or Dline coach... a desciple if you would from one of these better run defensive teams. Granted, maybe going after a coaching assistant from a 3-4 base team isn't the right move if we don't have 3-4 type personel, but I think you get my point. It's time we find the next great D coordinator that is someone else's assistant at this time.

Baltimore, who have been great year after year even with some turnover and injuries latley. Draft to fit a 3-4 defense, it is what can give Qbs some trouble and usually does cause turnovers.

[CoachChaz]

Maybe Reid gets fired and Jim Johnson doesnt get offered the job and decides to leave Philly.

[bengaaaaals1688]

- Marvin Lewis will likely be fired.

~G

As much as I wish this was true, he won't be going anywhere unless he leaves on his own. Brown isn't going to fire him because, 1) Brown is in love with him and 2) Brown doesn't get rid of coaches mid contract. Oh and 3) Brown is an idiot. Carry on.

[G_Money]

Maybe Reid gets fired and Jim Johnson doesnt get offered the job and decides to leave Philly.

I love Johnson's D. I really do. And his coaching tree spawned the Giants D. So now I REALLY love it.

It's one reason I'd give a serious look at McDermott. Johnson loves him, and he's ready for a DC shot IMO.

We won't do it though. Shanny doesn't know him, and he doesn't have the resume that would be required as a Non-Shanny-Buddy.

At this point my best-case, realistic scenario is getting Coyer back and hoping that his time learning the Tampa D was well-spent.

That move should put us back to competence on D. Combined with the theoretical excellence on O that we should be able to achieve, maybe we can go somewhere.

We're not going anywhere with our D as it is now.

~G

[Lonestar]

I have not read much of this thread but let me add and if someone else has said it sorry..

I would like to see:

WW at SS
Barrett at FS
Larsen at MLB
DJ at WLB
winborn at SLB.

Boss gone
webster gone

draft BAP at either DT or DE day one perhaps MLB or safety.. in rounds 3-4.. if for no other reason than Back up

We do not have to have all pro safeties or LB's but we do have to have a huge upgrade on the DL..

I guessing that all of those folks listed above will be highly competent and big upgrades over the skells currently playing at MLB and S..

Mikey is not EVER going to have a TOP 5 defense in scoring, getting turnovers, passing or running yards so get used to a top 10-15 defense. One that can get off the field stopping teams to 3 and outs about 30% of the time.. and not allowing 8-15 play scoring drives 50% of the time..

Mikey is an offensive minded coach, only fields a defense to rest the oline for awhile.. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Requiem / The Dagda]

If we suck this weekend, Curry would be a real possibility. Yeah, he's a SAM -- but he's a playmaker and he has the instincts to play MIKE. I'd love him.

[MOtorboat]

If we suck this weekend, Curry would be a real possibility. Yeah, he's a SAM -- but he's a playmaker and he has the instincts to play MIKE. I'd love him.

Well, unless Boss magically becomes healthy, we kind of need a Sam too.

[G_Money]

If we suck this weekend, Curry would be a real possibility. Yeah, he's a SAM -- but he's a playmaker and he has the instincts to play MIKE. I'd love him.

Curry is the best LB in the draft, IMO. He can play inside or outside, though I’d think for inside he’d be better in a 3-4. Still, he’s a monster and I wouldn’t hesitate at all to make him our monster.

We have holes at Mike and Sam, so if it turns out he’s not so good at MLB for us, play Larsen there and let Curry take over for Boss and Winborn outside. It’s not like Boss will probably ever play at an above-average level again anyway.

DJ, Larsen, Curry, with Woodyard and Barrett as safeties, Champ and somebody-not-named-Bly at corner and some new DL? I could handle that, especially as a fallback position.

~G

[Lonestar]

Curry is the best LB in the draft, IMO. He can play inside or outside, though I’d think for inside he’d be better in a 3-4. Still, he’s a monster and I wouldn’t hesitate at all to make him our monster.

We have holes at Mike and Sam, so if it turns out he’s not so good at MLB for us, play Larsen there and let Curry take over for Boss and Winborn outside. It’s not like Boss will probably ever play at an above-average level again anyway.

DJ, Larsen, Curry, with Woodyard and Barrett as safeties, Champ and somebody-not-named-Bly at corner and some new DL? I could handle that, especially as a fallback position.

~G

where will Curry go as the best LB in the draft.. certainly before we get there..

[Requiem / The Dagda]

He's probably a top ten guy dude, maybe top five based on athleticism. He's way better than Keith Rivers, and I believe Keith was up there. I'd trade back a little and settle for a Spikes though; and that's not really settlin' either. You just have to think Denver is going for a LB early somewhere. They can make impacts, and this is one of the best classes in a while. I'd look at Ellerbe in round two (character an issue) if we don't go there in round one.

I'd still take a safety high too.

[MOtorboat]

He's probably a top ten guy dude, maybe top five based on athleticism. He's way better than Keith Rivers, and I believe Keith was up there. I'd trade back a little and settle for a Spikes though; and that's not really settlin' either. You just have to think Denver is going for a LB early somewhere. They can make impacts, and this is one of the best classes in a while. I'd look at Ellerbe in round two (character an issue) if we don't go there in round one.

I'd still take a safety high too.

I know this is a defensive topic, and I would love to have any of these linebackers, but I'm putting my money on Shanahan drafting a running back this year.

[G_Money]

LBs:

Curry
Laurinaitis
Spikes
Maualuga

At least one of those will be available when we draft in the first, quite possibly all but one. I’d love to get the choice between Laurinaitis and Spikes, which is sort of a high floor vs. high ceiling argument (ie, Laurinaitis will guarantee you at LEAST a competent starter even if he “fails” while Spikes could turn into Nate Webster [seriously, he could] but Spikes likely has a higher ceiling due to his higher athleticism than Laurinaitis does. Laurinaitis is Al Wilson, Spikes is either Nate Webster and Hardy Nickerson, but definitely leaning in the Nickerson direction for his chances).

As for running backs…the year for Shanny to do that was last year. He thinks he did – he’s still in love with Torain. I don’t see us going with a 1st day back until Torain fails again.

Which is fine. If Donald Brown stays in school he should be a first rounder next year and we can take him then. He’s perfect for us.

If we do go with a back this year it’s either McCoy/Moreno, Greene, or another 4th-7th rounder. There just aren’t a ton of guys who are worth a 1st round pick, and two that are (Moreno and McCoy) might not even come out. Ringer will likely go higher than expected thanks to his raised profile this year.

My early money is on Davis in the 4th if we go RB.

But I’ve been thinking Shanny would fix our RB issue ever since Stephen Jackson fell to us. I literally screamed at the TV when we picked DJ instead. Ever since then, Shanahan hasn’t seen it as an issue, and even as of this week the commentators were saying how proud he was that he doesn’t have to spend an early pick – and early-pick money – on a running back.

Maybe it’s all a smokescreen and we’ll be showing off a 1st round choice like Moreno next year.

I just don’t think so.

~G

[LRtagger]

LBs:

Curry
Laurinaitis
Spikes
Maualuga

At least one of those will be available when we draft in the first, quite possibly all but one. I’d love to get the choice between Laurinaitis and Spikes, which is sort of a high floor vs. high ceiling argument (ie, Laurinaitis will guarantee you at LEAST a competent starter even if he “fails” while Spikes could turn into Nate Webster [seriously, he could] but Spikes likely has a higher ceiling due to his higher athleticism than Laurinaitis does. Laurinaitis is Al Wilson, Spikes is either Nate Webster and Hardy Nickerson, but definitely leaning in the Nickerson direction for his chances).

As for running backs…the year for Shanny to do that was last year. He thinks he did – he’s still in love with Torain. I don’t see us going with a 1st day back until Torain fails again.

Which is fine. If Donald Brown stays in school he should be a first rounder next year and we can take him then. He’s perfect for us.

If we do go with a back this year it’s either McCoy/Moreno, Greene, or another 4th-7th rounder. There just aren’t a ton of guys who are worth a 1st round pick, and two that are (Moreno and McCoy) might not even come out. Ringer will likely go higher than expected thanks to his raised profile this year.

My early money is on Davis in the 4th if we go RB.

But I’ve been thinking Shanny would fix our RB issue ever since Stephen Jackson fell to us. I literally screamed at the TV when we picked DJ instead. Ever since then, Shanahan hasn’t seen it as an issue, and even as of this week the commentators were saying how proud he was that he doesn’t have to spend an early pick – and early-pick money – on a running back.

Maybe it’s all a smokescreen and we’ll be showing off a 1st round choice like Moreno next year.

I just don’t think so.

~G



Well, the only thing I can say is that he was ready to take JStew last year if Clady was gone. It gives me some sort of confidence that he may take a RB in one of the first 3 rounds in 09. I personally think we need a 2nd or 3rd round back. I'm tired of mediocrity at the position.

[CoachChaz]

I prefer Spikes in round 1 simply because he's a great leader on the field and we definately need some leadership and inspiration on that side of the ball.

Greene/McCoy/Moreno/Ringer...which ever one of these guys falls to us in round two...take him.

[Dean]

Personally, I would prefer a two way DE with our first round. With the miriad holes we have on the defense this year, we should be able to get a player of need at Dl. LB, or S.

The silver lining to this thundercloud is the excellence that the Broncos have shown of late drafting quality talent. I expect that whoever is making the defensive calls next year they will have much more talent on the field to execute that call.

[fcspikeit]

Put a few pounds on him and I'd definately be happier, but i just dont see him lasting very long and taking the beating at his current weight. Say what you will, but I highly dount he's anything over 215 and that may be generous at the moment.

...and I'm not going to pretend that weight has nothing to do with a players position. If that's the case, I dont want to hear anyone complain about Moss and his ability to add weight anymore.

That's not even close to the same thing, Moss has 300+ pound guys pushing on him every snap. If he can't hold his ground because of his weight he needs to get bigger.

Have you seen WW getting pushed around? It's either a problem or it isn't.

[Nick]

He's probably a top ten guy dude, maybe top five based on athleticism. He's way better than Keith Rivers, and I believe Keith was up there. I'd trade back a little and settle for a Spikes though; and that's not really settlin' either. You just have to think Denver is going for a LB early somewhere. They can make impacts, and this is one of the best classes in a while. I'd look at Ellerbe in round two (character an issue) if we don't go there in round one.

I'd still take a safety high too.

Cush and Curry > Rivers. Rivers was way overated at USC... Same with with USC's DT Moala or somthing.

[bengaaaaals1688]

Cush and Curry > Rivers. Rivers was way overated at USC... Same with with USC's DT Moala or somthing.

Rivers was playing very well before he got hurt, and is only going to get better.

[G_Money]

Personally, I would prefer a two way DE with our first round. With the miriad holes we have on the defense this year, we should be able to get a player of need at Dl. LB, or S.

The silver lining to this thundercloud is the excellence that the Broncos have shown of late drafting quality talent. I expect that whoever is making the defensive calls next year they will have much more talent on the field to execute that call.

There isn't one Dean, at least not an obvious one. Not as a first-rounder.

tagger – the problem with wanting a 1st round back this year is that they’re the equivalent of 2nd round backs last year. 2nd round backs this year are only as good as 3rd round backs last year.

Last year was the RB bonanza, which naturally makes this draft lighter in them. I like both McCoy and Moreno, but neither is a slam-dunk over Johnathan Stewart, or Forte, or Mendenhall, or Felix Jones, and in fact a case could be made that they would slot in behind ALL of those backs if they were mashed together in this draft. DMC is overrated IMO, but the fact remains that there were total package backs all over the place last year. Choice and Slaton sure look good and they were way down the list.

This year has some good backs, and a couple who could be special. But some of those special backs might not even come out.

It’s not the position of strength it was last year. Since so many teams took early backs last year, though, some of this year’s backs may fall because of it.

I’m looking at Brown (who says he’s going back to school, but you never know), Greene, and possibly Ringer if we want a back in Round 2-3. Wells, McCoy and Moreno look like the first-round backs, but they might not all come out.

Maybe Shanahan really would have gone with a first-day RB, but with as long as he took to get a 2nd day running back I kinda doubt it. We ranked Jack Williams over Tashard Choice. How hard-up could we have been for a back in Shanny’s mind?

Hopefully this year’s debacle at the position makes him consider adding a decently-talented one sometime before the 5th, but we’ll see. As I said, my guess is still Davis in the 4th. I expect him to fall after the atrocity that was that whole team this year, and Shanny loves himself a bargain.

~G

[Requiem / The Dagda]

G, let's write a Broncos Draft Prospectus and sell it for like five bucks a copy. I'm serious.

[G_Money]

I prefer Spikes in round 1 simply because he's a great leader on the field and we definately need some leadership and inspiration on that side of the ball.

Greene/McCoy/Moreno/Ringer...which ever one of these guys falls to us in round two...take him.

I prefer Laurinaitis from a leadership standpoint. He's always had it and Spikes struggled with it before this year.

I guess the only thing I'm wary about with Spikes is getting another DJ - loads of talent, but not the Vilma/Wilson/pick your MLB leader we need to strengthen the heart of the D.

I don't have that concern about Laurinaitis. His concerns are in what his peak in the league can be, and whether he's physical enough against the run.

I'm coming back around to rating Laurinaitis a little higher than Spikes pre-combine, though. Too many weeks of watching ultra-athletic guys be ridiculously out of position and seeing our total lack of defensive heart, I guess.

~G

[Requiem / The Dagda]

I think that Spikes is the kind of MIKE we need. Throwback, just nasty. I think what he lacks is top end athleticism. I think he has the instincts that really count. IMHO.

[Dean]

With regard to picking a running back this year to improve next years rushing offense, I think the need and talent is greater on the defensive side.

Next year will be the second year for our entire O-line working together. I believe our running game will be much improved whoever is back there. The zone blocking scheme is extremely dependent upon conhesion of the O-line.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

No Dean.

[topscribe]

With regard to picking a running back this year to improve next years rushing offense, I think the need and talent is greater on the defensive side.

Next year will be the second year for our entire O-line working together. I believe our running game will be much improved whoever is back there. The zone blocking scheme is extremely dependent upon conhesion of the O-line.

That, and the Broncos have a couple promising runners.

As you mentioned, the situation is far more urgent on the defensive side.

-----

[underrated29]

i am swamped at work so i only read the thread title but let me say this...

I am not a big guy 5'11 173lbs. Not fat at all, actually more on the skinnier side. And not ripped, out of shape really.

I also met WW in person two days ago. I dont know how tall he is atleast a couple inches and he is definitley not 200lbs. That only like 30lbs. I gurantee you he would pick me up and throw my ass if we were to fight. He is not huge yet. He could stand to add atleast another 20lbs easy, but he is no 200lbs either.

[topscribe]

i am swamped at work so i only read the thread title but let me say this...

I am not a big guy 5'11 173lbs. Not fat at all, actually more on the skinnier side. And not ripped, out of shape really.

I also met WW in person two days ago. I dont know how tall he is atleast a couple inches and he is definitley not 200lbs. That only like 30lbs. I gurantee you he would pick me up and throw my ass if we were to fight. He is not huge yet. He could stand to add atleast another 20lbs easy, but he is no 200lbs either.

I don't understand. Are you saying he is bigger or smaller than 200 lbs?

-----

[Requiem / The Dagda]

The Broncos do not have promising young runners. Maybe for the CFL.

[Lonestar]

i am swamped at work so i only read the thread title but let me say this...

I am not a big guy 5'11 173lbs. Not fat at all, actually more on the skinnier side. And not ripped, out of shape really.

I also met WW in person two days ago. I dont know how tall he is atleast a couple inches and he is definitley not 200lbs. That only like 30lbs. I gurantee you he would pick me up and throw my ass if we were to fight. He is not huge yet. He could stand to add atleast another 20lbs easy, but he is no 200lbs either.

Which he had on him at the combine, IIRC came to the combine at 225, came into camp at 230+. But was quoted a few weeks ago at being 212.. not everyone can put it on a keep it on.. through the course of the season it wears off. If his natural weight is 210 or so then asking him to put it on and wear back down to his natural weight is not the answer..

[weazel]

I can understand the current fetish for Wes Woodyard, but believe me...a 200 pound linebacker will NOT last very long in the NFL. If he is going to be a regular on the field, it's going to have to be at safety. Reality


well he plays bigger than Ian Gold ever did. Gold was horrible

[spikerman]

With this coaching staff it doesn't matter who fits best where. Whether it be Woodyard at SS or Larsen at MLB. This staff is in their own world. These are the same guys who toyed with putting Dumervil at DT at one point. :rolleyes:

[G_Money]

With regard to picking a running back this year to improve next years rushing offense, I think the need and talent is greater on the defensive side.

Next year will be the second year for our entire O-line working together. I believe our running game will be much improved whoever is back there. The zone blocking scheme is extremely dependent upon conhesion of the O-line.

But we might be fitting in Lichtensteiger and possibly another G/C over the next 12 months. We're still not gonna have that cohesion, especially up the middle where we've had trouble running anyway.

I want my defensive players too, but we really can't keep asking Jay to produce when he's got Hillis and a bunch of cellphone salesmen and Ben-Gay spokemen running the ball for him.

Young - NEVER HEALTHY. DROP THE BUM.
Hall - damaged his arm. That make be a concern for a running back trying to hold onto the ball.
Pittman - busted-up neck, may never play again.
Torain - rebuilt foot, broken elbow, blown ACL. Sounds like he got hit by a truck and he's played in half of one pro game.
Pope - a nobody who also hurt himself.
Alridge - damaged in the last preseason game, weighs 170 lbs, is not the answer at RB, though interesting as a potential slot player.
Bell - still has no leg drive and falls down when the breeze shifts. But at least he's not injured yet.

You can't be serious in wanting those guys to be the backups for Hillis. Hillis is our best back, and we don't have any idea if he can carry the load even if Shanny changes his mind and decides to let him try. If the right back is there, we've got to at least consider it.

We have defensive needs, but without a running game - a REAL running game that can get yards in the red zone, on third-down, when it counts - we're gonna keep putting too much pressure on Jay and too much on the defense.

A great running game is a poor defense's best friend. It allows the team to grind clock in the 2nd half, to limit opponent possessions, to keep the D fresh and feisty.

It also helps a QB win when he's not playing his best.

We need a running game again. Having the linemen play together for another year will help, but not enough if Tatum Bell and Selvin Young are toting the rock.

If the right backs are gone and the defensive talent is there, then by all means stay all defense. Lord knows we need the talent boost.

But don't draft defenders just to draft them, and ignore a good back who could help us.

~G

[Dean]

But we might be fitting in Lichtensteiger and possibly another G/C over the next 12 months. We're still not gonna have that cohesion, especially up the middle where we've had trouble running anyway.

I want my defensive players too, but we really can't keep asking Jay to produce when he's got Hillis and a bunch of cellphone salesmen and Ben-Gay spokemen running the ball for him.

Young - NEVER HEALTHY. DROP THE BUM.
Hall - damaged his arm. That make be a concern for a running back trying to hold onto the ball.
Pittman - busted-up neck, may never play again.
Torain - rebuilt foot, broken elbow, blown ACL. Sounds like he got hit by a truck and he's played in half of one pro game.
Pope - a nobody who also hurt himself.
Alridge - damaged in the last preseason game, weighs 170 lbs, is not the answer at RB, though interesting as a potential slot player.
Bell - still has no leg drive and falls down when the breeze shifts. But at least he's not injured yet.

You can't be serious in wanting those guys to be the backups for Hillis. Hillis is our best back, and we don't have any idea if he can carry the load even if Shanny changes his mind and decides to let him try. If the right back is there, we've got to at least consider it.


Yes G man, I am serious. In the platoon system Hillis wouldn't have to carry the entire load. IMO the Broncos will be passing the ball a lot next year irregardless of who the RB is. You want to bet?



We have defensive needs, but without a running game - a REAL running game that can get yards in the red zone, on third-down, when it counts - we're gonna keep putting too much pressure on Jay and too much on the defense.

A great running game is a poor defense's best friend. It allows the team to grind clock in the 2nd half, to limit opponent possessions, to keep the D fresh and feisty.

If we obtain some true talent in the draft and free agency for the defense, they will need less help. The same goes for Jay at QB.



It also helps a QB win when he's not playing his best.

We need a running game again. Having the linemen play together for another year will help, but not enough if Tatum Bell and Selvin Young are toting the rock.

How much better will the line be next year? I thought that Hillis would be the primary ball carrier.



If the right backs are gone and the defensive talent is there, then by all means stay all defense. Lord knows we need the talent boost.

But don't draft defenders just to draft them, and ignore a good back who could help us.

~G

I agree not to draft anyone just to be drafting them. However, right now the defense needs a serious infusion of talent and they need it much more than the offense.

[Foochacho]

What rbs are up for free agency next year?

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Enough with the Hillis crap on him being the big role feature dude in our running game. That worked out well. . . not.

[topscribe]

Yes G man, I am serious. In the platoon system Hillis wouldn't have to carry the entire load. IMO the Broncos will be passing the ball a lot next year irregardless of who the RB is. You want to bet?




If we obtain some true talent in the draft and free agency for the defense, they will need less help. The same goes for Jay at QB.




How much better will the line be next year? I thought that Hillis would be the primary ball carrier.




I agree not to draft anyone just to be drafting them. However, right now the defense needs a serious infusion of talent and they need it much more than the offense.

I don't see any reason why Hillis shouldn't be given every opportunity to be
the feature back. With a 5.0 YPC and three 19-yard runs in the same game,
his receiving abilities and ability to pick up blitzes, while it is a very brief
resume, it is a very impressive one. Of how many RBs are linebackers afraid to
tackle head-on?

Moreover, as he became more orientated to the position, he began to show
he had some moves to go with his power, and he showed decent football
speed. This is why Shanny said Hillis has "proven he can play the tailback
position." I'm not sure how much more a person would want . . .

-----

[NameUsedBefore]

I'm not high on Woodyard, either. He's certainly better than Winborn/Webster, but I can't say that is saying very much. I think he could be a solid utility player, same for Larsen and Hillis. The more of those the better.

But TBH I'd much rather prefer a real linebacker, and for Hillis, a real running-back. I'm sure that sounds super condescending to say, but by "real" I mean players who have pretty much grown up playing those positions and are made for them. Woodyard isn't made to be starting at linebacker week in and week out. No way is Hillis skilled enough to solely carry the rock for an entire season. So on and so forth. Players like them have their place (and it is important, as we have seen), but it isn't starting for the whole season at positions other players are truly made for.

[G_Money]

Dean -

I expect us to pass a lot, but we always pass a lot. I would hope that we will also run a lot, which we haven't been able to do. We're normally at between 1030 and 1070 plays a year, give or take a few. Every year. It's like clockwork. 1030, 1040, 1060...

Right up until a) Cutler got here and b) the bottom fell out of the running game.

Oh, and c) the defense started to suck.

This year we're at 880ish, with a game to go. Let's say we get 940, 950 plays. We've lost a game and a half worth of offensive plays somewhere this year from our 1995-2005 average.

Is it the fault of the defense? Partly. They can't get OFF the field so we can't get on it to make more plays.

Is it the fault of the running game? Partly. Without a good running game we're not going to put together a lot of 12+ play drives. We did it against KC, but it's not the norm. More passing = fewer plays to march downfield, normally - and also fewer 3rd down conversions, so more 3-and-outs when the pass isn't working.

But one of the tenets of Broncos football over the last decade-plus is that our offense puts pressure on you to score, and then our defense pins its ears back and comes after you when you try. Then our run game steals all your time in the second half when you want to try to regain the lead - which results in sometimes GIANT play differentials between us and our opponents over the course of a season. Like 150 plays different some years.

Our defenses have never really been stellar, so it can't just be the total incompetence of our D. They were good at specific things - creating pressure, limiting points, not allowing sustained drives. They weren't even turnover hawks, which you would think would be a great help to having that many more offensive plays.

The offense did their part, and the defense did theirs.

Now? Now we come out, look good for a quarter on offense, and then piss it all away over the last 3 quarters on both sides.

I don't need a first round back. I don't even want a first round back. But getting back a running attack to take plays away from the opposing offense is critical to our future success IMO. Passing's pretty, but passing doesn't win it all very often in the NFL. Not even the Patriots could pull it off.

They say running and defense win championships for a reason, and we've never had great defenses. We HAVE had great running attacks, though.

And the offensive line is looking like a trench we're gonna want to go to war with. Clady is so mobile on pitches and screens it frightens me. He's a wet dream come true. Trench warfare is where it's at in the playoffs, and there are some STELLAR defenses in the AFC right now. Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Tennessee...between them and the goons we're gonna see next season when we play the NFC East, with Philly and the Giants and company, we can't be one-dimensional. They'll eat us alive.

Our schedule is gonna require us to bring our A-game to every contest. We can't be putting it all on Cutler to never throw a pick and get 350 in the air every game to have a chance. He WILL throw picks. Our D is not likely to get them back.

Right now we cannot win if Cutler has a bad game. With a running attack, we can. We can draft every great defender we want, but if we're still playing with 15 yard cushions and prevent sets it won't help enough.

Yeah, we throw a lot. We'll probably keep throwing a lot. But the heart and soul of a Broncos team isn't throwing for 4000 yards.

Every great team has an identity. The Steelers have a curtain and a nasty running attack. The Ravens have something similar. The Rams had the greatest show on turf a few years ago.

We have this:
http://nomas-nyc.com/uploaded_images/ElwaySpin-760172.jpg

And this:
http://www.thesportstruth.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/terrell-davis.jpg

A QB who would do anything it took to win and carried a team on his back more times than he could count, and a vicious, devastating running attack led by a guy who would smile as he ground you into dust.

Our free-wheeling QB and disciplined ground attack ARE the Broncos.

Jay is proving he can be the QB we need.

But it's a big step to put it all on Hillis to be the grind-it-out runner. I like him, but I want the other half of the tandem.

Because our ground attack deserves to be all it can be. No more of this mediocrity when it comes to making opposing teams cry.

I feel like somebody's standing on my Superman cape, and it's getting old.

~G

[G_Money]

I don't see any reason why Hillis shouldn't be given every opportunity to be
the feature back. With a 5.0 YPC and three 19-yard runs in the same game,
his receiving abilities and ability to pick up blitzes, while it is a very brief
resume, it is a very impressive one. Of how many RBs are linebackers afraid to
tackle head-on?

Moreover, as he became more orientated to the position, he began to show
he had some moves to go with his power, and he showed decent football
speed. This is why Shanny said Hillis has "proven he can play the tailback
position." I'm not sure how much more a person would want . . .

-----

I'd like another guy who can also do what Hillis can do. That way if and when Hillis breaks down from his brutal rushing style, we'll have another guy who can also break tackles, block like a demon, and play his heart out.

One back isn't enough in the NFL any more. The Steelers don't think so. The Panthers don't think so. The Chargers lost their 2nd back and now they don't think so either.

More than one guy to fill the bill, please. I adore Hillis, but it can't be Hillis and some schlubs at the position, or we're another injury from trying to get our RBs to stop leaving slime trails all over the field.

~G

[topscribe]

I'd like another guy who can also do what Hillis can do. That way if and when Hillis breaks down from his brutal rushing style, we'll have another guy who can also break tackles, block like a demon, and play his heart out.

One back isn't enough in the NFL any more. The Steelers don't think so. The Panthers don't think so. The Chargers lost their 2nd back and now they don't think so either.

More than one guy to fill the bill, please. I adore Hillis, but it can't be Hillis and some schlubs at the position, or we're another injury from trying to get our RBs to stop leaving slime trails all over the field.

~G

Oh, definitely! I would love a "thunder and lightning" arrangement. Hillis and
Young might have filled that bill, but, along with you, I just don't see Young
playing an entire season, or even most of one. Maybe Torain would be a good
complement . . . well, I feel positive he would . . . but it is looking suspiciously
like the same kind of deal.

But the Broncos have quite a stable to look at next year, and some of those
guys are pretty fast, with good moves. Yet I might not be adverse to the
investment of a second-day pick for a promising RB, depending on total needs,
of course.

-----

[G_Money]

I don’t even need the lightning part. Bring me thunder and more thunder.

I’d be perfectly happy to ram 250-pound Hillis down the throats of the defense until they didn’t want to see him touch the ball ever again, and then hit them with 240 pound Shonn Greene until they cry uncle.

If we get lightning, I want real lightning, not fireflies in a jug. No more calling a lightweight back who can’t be the feature back because he’s too limited “Lightning.”

I wouldn’t mind adding an explosive home-run hitter, but I want one who CAN run between the tackles when necessary.

~G

[G_Money]

PS - Sorry coach, think we got off on a tangent from your WW discussion... :tsk:

~G

[topscribe]

PS - Sorry coach, think we got off on a tangent from your WW discussion... :tsk:

~G

Let me add to that apology, Coach, even though it is all G's fault. :nod:

:focus:

-----

[Lonestar]

I don’t even need the lightning part. Bring me thunder and more thunder.

I’d be perfectly happy to ram 250-pound Hillis down the throats of the defense until they didn’t want to see him touch the ball ever again, and then hit them with 240 pound Shonn Greene until they cry uncle.

If we get lightning, I want real lightning, not fireflies in a jug. No more calling a lightweight back who can’t be the feature back because he’s too limited “Lightning.”

I wouldn’t mind adding an explosive home-run hitter, but I want one who CAN run between the tackles when necessary.

~G

Yep I could care less about a home run guy.. beat them up till they flat give up trying or you have I'd their whole defense..

Give me a solid 5 each time and an occasional 15- or twenty and when you get to the red zone we know we can either run it or pass it for the TD that scares the DC more than anything..

Give me a 240-250 pound TD any day of the week.. Better yet two of them..

[G_Money]

Then this is your guy, Jr –

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrWZwH9VVJU

His name is Shonn Greene, and he NEVER gets arm-tackled. He hits everybody, apologizes for nothing, has a low center of gravity and a lot of beef. He’s also faster than you think he is. He’s in the Bettis mold.

I don’t expect to add Shonn, but he mutilated the Big 10 this year and he’ll be an MJD-style baller in the pros as long as his head is screwed on straight.

Feel free to enjoy him from now until the combine. ;)

~G

[NightTrainLayne]

Then this is your guy, Jr –

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrWZwH9VVJU

His name is Shonn Greene, and he NEVER gets arm-tackled. He hits everybody, apologizes for nothing, has a low center of gravity and a lot of beef. He’s also faster than you think he is. He’s in the Bettis mold.

I don’t expect to add Shonn, but he mutilated the Big 10 this year and he’ll be an MJD-style baller in the pros as long as his head is screwed on straight.

Feel free to enjoy him from now until the combine. ;)

~G

About the only RB to get any Heisman consideration in the final voting. He is a beast.

[CoachChaz]

No apologies necessary. I've become unpopular recently based on these two issues.

1. Wes Woodyard should be a safety
2. Peyton Hillis will NOT be a feature back

No problem wrapping them into one

[topscribe]

Then this is your guy, Jr –

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrWZwH9VVJU

His name is Shonn Greene, and he NEVER gets arm-tackled. He hits everybody, apologizes for nothing, has a low center of gravity and a lot of beef. He’s also faster than you think he is. He’s in the Bettis mold.

I don’t expect to add Shonn, but he mutilated the Big 10 this year and he’ll be an MJD-style baller in the pros as long as his head is screwed on straight.

Feel free to enjoy him from now until the combine. ;)

~G

Once I muted out that vile racket that went along with the flick, I really
enjoyed those highlights. Greene shows good vision and really seems to know
how to use his blockers. And when someone gets in the way, it's carnage!

All the sudden, I'm a Shonn Greene fan.

Can you imagine? -- Hillis for five reps, Greene for five, Hillis for five, Greene
for five . . . then Cutler to Marshall/Royal/Scheffler for 60 yards. Opposing
defensive players are all going to need counseling after that . . . :shocked:

-----

[topscribe]

No apologies necessary. I've become unpopular recently based on these two issues.

1. Wes Woodyard should be a safety
2. Peyton Hillis will NOT be a feature back

No problem wrapping them into one

I love you for the first item . . . not so much for the second. :D

-----

[CoachChaz]

My only problem with Greene is the reports that he sometimes lets his weight get out of control in the off-season. I know an injury was involved this past summer, but he reportedly ballooned to 260. Other than that and the fact that big backs not named Jerome Bettis never last very long...I'm on board with him.

I'd prefer Moreno, McCoy or Ringer...but Greene would be nice. Add him and compliment him with Hillis and be silly and draft Jorvorskie Lane later on day 2 and NO ONE would want to face our running game

[CoachChaz]

I love you for the first item . . . not so much for the second. :D

-----

I just think Hillis has more value as a fullback. His blocking and recieving from the position are stellar and I think he'd get better numbers as a compliment (10 carries a game) to a more well-rounded tailback.

[topscribe]

I just think Hillis has more value as a fullback. His blocking and recieving from the position are stellar and I think he'd get better numbers as a compliment (10 carries a game) to a more well-rounded tailback.

Ah, Coach, I would hate to think of Hillis' talents wasting away at FB (remember
Mike Anderson?). FBs are a dime a dozen if the Broncos would just put out some
effort in finding one. (Maybe Pinnock is an answer; I understand he was pretty
good until he was injured.)

When a RB can muster 5.0 YPC and rip off three 19-yarders in one game, and
run over LBs in the process, while he has shown so-so blocking skills at FB
(even Larsen, the converted LB, beat him out there, remember?), I just don't
want to see him back there again.

-----

[Lonestar]

Then this is your guy, Jr –

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrWZwH9VVJU

His name is Shonn Greene, and he NEVER gets arm-tackled. He hits everybody, apologizes for nothing, has a low center of gravity and a lot of beef. He’s also faster than you think he is. He’s in the Bettis mold.

I don’t expect to add Shonn, but he mutilated the Big 10 this year and he’ll be an MJD-style baller in the pros as long as his head is screwed on straight.

Feel free to enjoy him from now until the combine. ;)

~G

looks interesting .. But seems to have some really great OLINE blocking for him and he took alot of abuse when running through those attempted tackles as well as the tackles themselves looks like he has a lot of miles on him already..

The keeping his head on straight comment has me wondering..

[CoachChaz]

Ah, Coach, I would hate to think of Hillis' talents wasting away at FB (remember
Mike Anderson?). FBs are a dime a dozen if the Broncos would just put out some
effort in finding one. (Maybe Pinnock is an answer; I understand he was pretty
good until he was injured.)

When a RB can muster 5.0 YPC and rip off three 19-yarders in one game, and
run over LBs in the process, while he has shown so-so blocking skills at FB
(even Larsen, the converted LB, beat him out there, remember?), I just don't
want to see him back there again.

-----

If used like Alstott was, I dont think he'd be wasted.

[Ziggy]

No apologies necessary. I've become unpopular recently based on these two issues.

1. Wes Woodyard should be a safety
2. Peyton Hillis will NOT be a feature back

No problem wrapping them into one

Coach I love #1. I've been an advocate of playing WW at safety since the preseason. As far as #2 goes, I think you put Peyton on the field as much as you can. I don't care if it's at RB, FB, or TE. Just get the kid on the field and utilize his versatility and talents.

[CoachChaz]

I guess I just want more than one big game out of a kid before I'm ready to hand him a title.

[topscribe]

I guess I just want more than one big game out of a kid before I'm ready to hand him a title.

Spoken like a true coach, and not at all unreasonable . . .

-----

[Lonestar]

No apologies necessary. I've become unpopular recently based on these two issues.

1. Wes Woodyard should be a safety
2. Peyton Hillis will NOT be a feature back

No problem wrapping them into one


bovine excrement.. anyone that thinks that way is a dreamer..

Although I do like Hillis until such time as we get someone better and I do not mean any pansy assed Rb that goes down in strong breeze or at the hint of a tackle..

I hope we never have another RB under 225 and I could give a rats rectum about "take it to the house" speed.. We all saw what speed did not accomplish since poorti$$$$ left.

Not one has been worth a crap.. Not one, all to fragile to handle the dirty work and get the tough yards when we have to have them.. Short yardage times or in the red zone.. None of them have been worth a dump..

[Rex]

No apologies necessary. I've become unpopular recently based on these two issues.

1. Wes Woodyard should be a safety
2. Peyton Hillis will NOT be a feature back

No problem wrapping them into one

I'm witchyou.

[G_Money]

Well you and I agree on both of those things, Coach.

I just phrase it differently. ;)

I think Hillis CAN be a mean 1200 yard runner for this team, and Woodyard CAN play the Will at a high level.

But our offense will work better and be more injury-proof if we get another RB who can also be a monster, and saving ourselves a first-day draftpick by converting Woodyard to safety is a better first-option than moving DJ around or trying to trade him (or not playing Woodyard at all).

I guess I don’t see the harm in Woodyard-to-safety and Hillis-to-RBBC-with-another-great-back scenarios. What’s the worst thing that happens? Woodyard fails and has to go back to the Will where he has already proven moderately successful, and we screw up and draft another Tatum Bell instead of the quality back we need?

The object of strategy is not to make sure that one road leads to success, but that ALL roads do.

Better running helps the D. Filling a safety hole with Woodyard staves off our need at that position at least a year and lets us take a different selection. If both moves help the D we’re 2 crucial positions up on where we were before and have helped both sides of the LOS. If neither of them works we still have a warm body for the RB rotation, and a good backup LB who might displace DJ’s salary in a couple of years.

As for Greene, he did have a weight problem but he also wasn’t playing football. When he’s playing football I’ve always seen him in really good shape. Like you said, big backs don’t necessarily have long careers, but I’m not looking for my RB for 2020. Just the one who can get that 4th quarter TD to win us a Super Bowl in the next 5 years.

I like him better than Ringer because Ringer’s a hopper. I don’t like hopping backs. It is rare that hoppers succeed in the pros. If they can break Ringer of that habit he has a lot of good qualities – I’d just think he’d go a little higher with all the pub he’s had this year.

As you know, Brown’s my favorite. If we pass on a back this year and take Brown in the first next year I’d be fine with that. You’ll just have to listen to me bitch about it for a year before it’s all good. ;) If he changes his mind and comes out this year, then he’s my #1 back for us.

Then McCoy, then Greene, then Moreno, then Ringer.

Since McCoy and Moreno are likely first-rounders and Shanny doesn’t like to pay first-round money for a back, I’m looking more at Greene and Ringer in the 2nd.

JMO.

~G

[CoachChaz]

I agree with you in that WW and PH "could" fill those roles for us, but I'd prefer to see them in their natural roles...SS and FB.

Having WW on the field WITH DJ and having Hillis in the backfield WITH Moreno/McCoy/Greene/etc. would obviously be a better scenario and one that is very attainable.

I guess I just kind of see it as settling if we dont take full advantage of these opportunities.

[topscribe]

I agree with you in that WW and PH "could" fill those roles for us, but I'd prefer to see them in their natural roles...SS and FB.

Having WW on the field WITH DJ and having Hillis in the backfield WITH Moreno/McCoy/Greene/etc. would obviously be a better scenario and one that is very attainable.

I guess I just kind of see it as settling if we dont take full advantage of these opportunities.

But FB is not a "natural" role for Hillis. Remember, he was recruited by AR as a
RB and fell to FB only because of McFadden and Felix Jones. Moreover, as I
implied, with Hillis' excellent YPC as a RB and so-so blocking ability as a FB, I
don't know how FB could be perceived as "natural" for him.

I really prefer your previous statement to see him some more before making
up one's mind where he should play.

-----

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Greene's a one year wonder. Not thrilled about a Big 10 runner who played against shitty defenses in that conference. Don't think he has great pro potential. Travis Henry II.

[Medford Bronco]

If used like Alstott was, I dont think he'd be wasted.

I said that in another thread, great post Coach:salute:

although I would love to see him this weekend over Tatum I slip on the grass Bell or Cory I have never seen before Boyd. ( I would rather Boyd then Tatum_)

[CoachChaz]

But FB is not a "natural" role for Hillis. Remember, he was recruited by AR as a
RB and fell to FB only because of McFadden and Felix Jones. Moreover, as I
implied, with Hillis' excellent YPC as a RB and so-so blocking ability as a FB, I
don't know how FB could be perceived as "natural" for him.

I really prefer your previous statement to see him some more before making
up one's mind where he should play.

-----

...and based on the play of Jones and McFadden, i think he played FB rather well. Keep in mind that what I want to see from him is a role like Alstott. Alstott wasnt a great blocker either, but he filled in well. I think Hillis would be great with 8-10 carries per game (maybe more if the situation allowed) to go with a few receptions. Again...I want to use him...but I'd be happier having 2 options back there as opposed to one that is unproven.

[Lonestar]

...and based on the play of Jones and McFadden, i think he played FB rather well. Keep in mind that what I want to see from him is a role like Alstott. Alstott wasnt a great blocker either, but he filled in well. I think Hillis would be great with 8-10 carries per game (maybe more if the situation allowed) to go with a few receptions. Again...I want to use him...but I'd be happier having 2 options back there as opposed to one that is unproven.


yet whoever we draft is a complete unknown.. Sorry he has proved himself IMHO over the 4-5 games he played in in the alter part of the year..

Does he have the stamina to last 19 games, hell I do not know but then neither do we have clue about any rookies..

We all know that NONE of the players on the current team can..

As for Hillis and his injury I see that one a a complete fluke.. No amount of condition or stretching would have negated his injury IMO..

[topscribe]

...and based on the play of Jones and McFadden, i think he played FB rather well. Keep in mind that what I want to see from him is a role like Alstott. Alstott wasnt a great blocker either, but he filled in well. I think Hillis would be great with 8-10 carries per game (maybe more if the situation allowed) to go with a few receptions. Again...I want to use him...but I'd be happier having 2 options back there as opposed to one that is unproven.

I don't disagree on that possibility.

In fact, I think he possibly could be better than Alstott was in that capacity.

-----

[G_Money]

Alstott, first 7 years in the league:

380 yards rushing, 570 yards receiving
660 rushing, 180 receiving
850, 150
950, 240
460, 90
680, 230
550, 240

Alstott was a power back and receiver who also blocked. That’s what Hillis can be.

700 yards on the ground, 300 in the air, is the defacto blocker and safety valve for Cutler on passing downs.

Then we add in the 1200 yard back and let the offense take care of itself.

~G

[topscribe]

yet whoever we draft is a complete unknown.. Sorry he has proved himself IMHO over the 4-5 games he played in in the alter part of the year..

Does he have the stamina to last 19 games, hell I do not know but then neither do we have clue about any rookies..

We all know that NONE of the players on the current team can..

As for Hillis and his injury I see that one a a complete fluke.. No amount of condition or stretching would have negated his injury IMO..

True. It wasn't an "injury prone" type of injury. He was caught between two
defenders as he came down from making a sensational catch. There is no way
he was NOT injured on that play.

You are also right about the prospects of a drafted player before seeing him
on the field in a professional game. After all, who outplayed whom this year
between Hillis and McFadden? Not to say that McFadden isn't still a great
prospect, but from what we've seen so far . . . well, the proof is on the field,
isn't it?

In fact, we can go down the line in the list of rookie disappointments, as
Flatinum reproduced for us in another thread, and see that you don't know
what you are getting until they are under the lights.

-----

[CoachChaz]

yet whoever we draft is a complete unknown.. Sorry he has proved himself IMHO over the 4-5 games he played in in the alter part of the year..

Does he have the stamina to last 19 games, hell I do not know but then neither do we have clue about any rookies..

We all know that NONE of the players on the current team can..

As for Hillis and his injury I see that one a a complete fluke.. No amount of condition or stretching would have negated his injury IMO..

I guess by "proven" back, I mean a player that has succeeded against top talent in the tailback position at a high level and is worthy of a high round draft selection. No...that does NOT translate to success in the NFL, but I think we'd have no problem getting production from Wells/Moreno/Greene and so on.

As far as Hillis proving anything...I guess I have ask when.

8 for 24 against Cleveland...nothing
10 for 44 against Atlanta...average
17 for 74 against Oakland...mediocre against a bad team.
22 for 129 against the Jets...very good numbers, but also in a game that Cutler threw 43 times for 357
8 for 58 aganst KC...started well, then got hurt against a bad defense.

So I'll give you the Jets game as a really good performance, but where has he proven his greatness before or after that?

[CoachChaz]

Alstott, first 7 years in the league:

380 yards rushing, 570 yards receiving
660 rushing, 180 receiving
850, 150
950, 240
460, 90
680, 230
550, 240

Alstott was a power back and receiver who also blocked. That’s what Hillis can be.

700 yards on the ground, 300 in the air, is the defacto blocker and safety valve for Cutler on passing downs.

Then we add in the 1200 yard back and let the offense take care of itself.

~G

I'm all for this.

I'll say it again...I dont want to NOT use Hillis...I just prefer using him WITH another stud.

[underrated29]

I don't understand. Are you saying he is bigger or smaller than 200 lbs?

-----



He is a lot bigger than 200 lbs. He def has more than 30lbs on me. Id say he is no lighter than 215. But he could easily add 15-20lbs more no prob.

[underrated29]

ok whew, just read through the whole thread.

First, as for hillis- shanny has already stated that hillis will be used as an H-back type next year. Some running plays, lots of FB, TE, WR- So as for the feature back, not gonna happen unless we get the same dam bug we got this year. Doubtful *knocks on wood*

2. I love wes at Saftey. He is bigger than 210 and could easily add more, but at saftey i think he can make the jump.

I dont like any of the rbs that much aside from greene who imo is similiar to hillis and would be a waste of a 2nd for us unless we make some sort of trade.


We are still a ways away, but check out this guy in my sig- he could be real nice addition for us. Also the SCOUT THREAD has a couple of guys.

I want S fixed period! and We need a mean nasty LB. Until those are filled i dont see how anyone could put RB over it.

But there is a lot to be seen between now and draft. We got to see what happens with WW, DJ, and Free Agency.

I have a feeling, as G or Coach said,, that we are going to shell out some $$$ for a Suggs, dansby,vilma?, peppers type player. Most likely MLB or DE......I would not be surprised to see that at all.

[Nature Boy]

Just going by TV alone and him standing next to the other guys, DBs and LBs, Wesley Woodward is at least 220lbs in my opinion. I'm aware he's got extra padded LB shoulder pads.

[Lonestar]

I guess by "proven" back, I mean a player that has succeeded against top talent in the tailback position at a high level and is worthy of a high round draft selection. No...that does NOT translate to success in the NFL, but I think we'd have no problem getting production from Wells/Moreno/Greene and so on.

As far as Hillis proving anything...I guess I have ask when.

8 for 24 against Cleveland...nothing
10 for 44 against Atlanta...average
17 for 74 against Oakland...mediocre against a bad team.
22 for 129 against the Jets...very good numbers, but also in a game that Cutler threw 43 times for 357
8 for 58 aganst KC...started well, then got hurt against a bad defense.

So I'll give you the Jets game as a really good performance, but where has he proven his greatness before or after that?


I guess I look for greatness in something other than stats when this kid came on the field and was given a chance to carry the rock the offense was lifted .. Not ion the first game of the year but in those later games..

It was not the number of yards but the yards he did get when we separately needed a pick me up..

He got them and refused to go down on 1st through in some cases 6th or 7th contact..

Now he is not fast a burner but he is a hard runner, for my money I'll take Hillis over some unproven overpaid college kid any day of the week..

Coach we really do not need for him to have consistent 100 yard games merely the threat of him being able to do so.. That in itself will take an enormous load off of Jays shoulder..

I'm guessing that Jay had those big throwing days Because he was on the field and the defense was worried about him getting it ..

Whether they were poor defenses or not he did something that none of the other RB excepting perhaps Pitts did, gained yards when he absolutley had to..

I further believe that if given the chance to play RB few will take the job away from him.. If they do great more power to the Broncos.. But I do not want any draft choice "given the job" because mikeys drafting prowess is on the line AGAIN..

[Lonestar]

Just going by TV alone and him standing next to the other guys, DBs and LBs, Wesley Woodward is at least 220lbs in my opinion. I'm aware he's got extra padded LB shoulder pads.

yet a few weeks ago on TV he was quoted as saying he was at 212..

[Nature Boy]

yet a few weeks ago on TV he was quoted as saying he was at 212..



Champ Bailey is 6'0'' and listed at 192lbs.

Karl Paymah is 6'0'' and listed at 195lbs.

Darrell Jackson is only 5'11'' and listed at 210lbs.

Wesley Woodyard is 6'1'', he is definitely bigger than 200lbs. Bigger than 212lbs as well. There is no way he is only 2 lbs heavier than Darrell Jackson.


In fact the Broncos official website has Woodyard listed at 230lbs. Link below.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=8678

.

[bengaaaaals1688]

Champ Bailey is 6'0'' and listed at 192lbs.

Karl Paymah is 6'0'' and listed at 195lbs.

Darrell Jackson is only 5'11'' and listed at 210lbs.

Wesley Woodyard is 6'1'', he is definitely bigger than 200lbs. Bigger than 212lbs as well. There is no way he is only 2 lbs heavier than Darrell Jackson.


In fact the Broncos official website has Woodyard listed at 230lbs. Link below.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=8678

.

So you know how much he weighs better than he does??:confused:

[fcspikeit]

I guess by "proven" back, I mean a player that has succeeded against top talent in the tailback position at a high level and is worthy of a high round draft selection. No...that does NOT translate to success in the NFL, but I think we'd have no problem getting production from Wells/Moreno/Greene and so on.

As far as Hillis proving anything...I guess I have ask when.

8 for 24 against Cleveland...nothing (YPC 3)
10 for 44 against Atlanta...average (YPC 4.4)
17 for 74 against Oakland...mediocre against a bad team. (YPC 4.3)
22 for 129 against the Jets...very good numbers, but also in a game that Cutler threw 43 times for 357 (YPC 5.8)
8 for 58 aganst KC...started well, then got hurt against a bad defense. (YPC 7.2)

So I'll give you the Jets game as a really good performance, but where has he proven his greatness before or after that?

He got better with each game

He had 343 yards and 5 TD's on just 68 carries, that's averaging 5.0 yards a carry..

Out of the top 40 backs (in rushing yards) in the NFL, only 3 averaged 5.0 yards a carry or better.

4. DeAngelo Williams 5.4
10. Brandon Jacobs 5.0
14. Darrick Ward 5.7

It say he did pretty good :coffee:

*Edit* With his 5 TD's in 68 carries, that's scoring a TD in every 13.6 carriers.. The leading TD scorer in the NFL is, DeAngelo Williams with 18. He scores a TD in every 13.7 carries. None of the other top backs are even close to that..

Who knows what his #'s would look like if he was our starter from day one? I'm just saying, he showed a hell of a lot. He deserves the right to be our top back going into next year. If someone else can take the job away, that's fine, let them try. As far as I am concerned, it should be his job to lose going into next year..

[Nature Boy]

So you know how much he weighs better than he does??:confused:

Obviously you never watched a Broncos game this season. Have you even seen Woodyard on the field? Do you really think a 212lb linebacker can play in this league? Do you seriously think Wesley Woodyard is only 2 lbs heavier than Darrell Jackson?

Ask any Broncos fan here these questions.

************** EDIT ****************

.

[Shazam!]

Do you really think a 212lb linebacker player can play in this league?

Did we ever think Denver would have a 5'11", 260lb DE?

[Nature Boy]

Did we ever think Denver would have a 5'11", 260lb DE?


Obviously you missed the point.

Dumerville weighs 260lbs with arms of someone about 6'6''. Jason Taylor only weighs 245lbs and he was one of the best in recent years.


Point is, Wesley Woodyard is not 212lbs. The official DenverBroncos.com site says he is 230lbs.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=8678

check that.
.

[Dean]

For the last two weeks people have been posting that WWIII is 215 pounds or he's 218 pounds. The reasoning at first was that the announcer during the game said that was what he weighed. Then it became that WW was quoated as saying he weighted one or the other of these weights.

The announcer was reading off a piece of paper which may or may not have been correct.

As far as a quote, please provide it if it exists.

To me he looks only slightly smaller than our Mike and Sam LBs when they were waiting for the defensive call to come in. Just guessin' I would say between 225 and 235. I don't believe 215.

[topscribe]

For the last two weeks people have been posting that WWIII is 215 pounds or he's 218 pounds. The reasoning at first was that the announcer during the game said that was what he weighed. Then it became that WW was quoated as saying he weighted one or the other of these weights.

The announcer was reading off a piece of paper which may or may not have been correct.

As far as a quote, please provide it if it exists.

To me he looks only slightly smaller than our Mike and Sam LBs when they were waiting for the defensive call to come in. Just guessin' I would say between 225 and 235. I don't believe 215.

In a presser, Shanny said Woodyard weighs "in the 220 range," whatever that means.

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[bengaaaaals1688]

Obviously you never watched a Broncos game this season. Have you even seen Woodyard on the field? Do you really think a 212lb linebacker can play in this league? Do you seriously think Wesley Woodyard is only 2 lbs heavier than Darrell Jackson?

Ask any Broncos fan here these questions.

************** EDIT ****************

.

Of course I haven't, and I couldn't care less how much the man weighs, what you seem to not understand is that IF Woodyard did in fact say that he weighs 212 pounds, HE would know MUCH better than YOU would. You can't argue with someone on what they weigh based on what you see, when he is actually carrying around the weight and getting on scales.

[Lonestar]

yet a few weeks ago on TV he was quoted as saying he was at 212..


Champ Bailey is 6'0'' and listed at 192lbs.

Karl Paymah is 6'0'' and listed at 195lbs.

Darrell Jackson is only 5'11'' and listed at 210lbs.

Wesley Woodyard is 6'1'', he is definitely bigger than 200lbs. Bigger than 212lbs as well. There is no way he is only 2 lbs heavier than Darrell Jackson.


In fact the Broncos official website has Woodyard listed at 230lbs. Link below.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=498&contentID=8678

.


I realize you did not get the gist of my comment.. HE was on a TV show and someone asked him his playing weight and he said he was at 212 pounds.. No one was guessing at his weight it was WHAT HE SAID..

He came into camp at 230 that is why he is most listed at that in the web site I'm guessing they do not update that each week with new numbers.... he was at the combine IIRC 225..

So looks in this case are deceiving..

BTW Jackson might have lost some wight since training camp also..

[Nature Boy]

Wesley Woodyard is at least 220lbs. I'm guessing closing to 230lbs even this late into the season. Any dope would know that if they watched the Broncos this season.

[fcspikeit]

Wesley Woodyard is at least 220lbs. I'm guessing closing to 230lbs even this late into the season. Any dope would know that if they watched the Broncos this season.

Can you really not see the context of this argument? :confused:

All people are saying is that he said he was 212. So what are you arguing about? Do you not think he said that or are you just snapping at people for quoting him as saying that?

If he said that, why would he lie? He knows 212 pounds is to small for a LB, if anything, he would lie about being heavier..

[Nature Boy]

I'm just gonna email Wesley Woodyard or his agent and we'll clear the air on this one. I'll bet you or anybody 1000 freak bucks that W.W. is at least 220lbs if not more(guessing 225lb+). Woodyard hasn't seen much playing time compared to real starters and he is 100% health. I'm sure he's in the gym more than the coaches require of him so he hasn't lost any muscle mass even this late into the season.

The Administrator has Wesley Woodyard's agent's email, maybe he can get the real answer.

[fcspikeit]

I'm just gonna email Wesley Woodyard or his agent and we'll clear the air on this one. I'll bet you or anybody 1000 freak bucks that W.W. is at least 220lbs if not more(guessing 225lb+). Woodyard hasn't seen much playing time compared to real starters and he is 100% health. I'm sure he's in the gym more than the coaches require of him so he hasn't lost any muscle mass even this late into the season.

The Administrator has Wesley Woodyard's agent's email, maybe he can get the real answer.

I agree he looks bigger then 212..

If you hear anything back, let us know, I would be interested to hear what he had to say about it...

Now, stop being a scrooge and have a happy holidays :beer:

[Nature Boy]

I agree he looks bigger then 212..

If you hear anything back, let us know, I would be interested to hear what he had to say about it...

Now, stop being a scrooge and have a happy holidays :beer:


I thought you were the scrooge side busting on me. Anyways, Happy Holidays, have another beer. :beer:

[topscribe]

I'm just gonna email Wesley Woodyard or his agent and we'll clear the air on this one. I'll bet you or anybody 1000 freak bucks that W.W. is at least 220lbs if not more(guessing 225lb+). Woodyard hasn't seen much playing time compared to real starters and he is 100% health. I'm sure he's in the gym more than the coaches require of him so he hasn't lost any muscle mass even this late into the season.

The Administrator has Wesley Woodyard's agent's email, maybe he can get the real answer.

For pity's sake, I already mentioned that Shanny said Woodyard is "in the 220
range." Don't you think Shanny might know? How much documentation do you
need before you consider it settled?

Can you now go on to a real issue, rather than continue this pissing contest
over how much Woodyard weighs?

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[Northman]

I bet Travis Henry does drugs.

[topscribe]

I bet Travis Henry does drugs.

ya think? :laugh:

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[Nature Boy]

For pity's sake, I already mentioned that Shanny said Woodyard is "in the 220
range." Don't you think Shanny might know? How much documentation do you
need before you consider it settled?

Can you now go on to a real issue, rather than continue this pissing contest
over how much Woodyard weighs?

-----


Thanks Tops for confirming that I am right... as usual of course. Please tell Jwiz and the Bungles fan that. They apparently believe WW is only 212lbs. LOL!


I bet Travis Henry does drugs.

I bet he does too and I bet he's still a better RB right now than Tater Tott or the 7-8 guys(when healthy) we've lost to IR.

What is Travis Henry's status right now? Is he out on bail right now? Such a waste of ball toting talent.

.

[topscribe]

Thanks Tops for confirming that I am right... as usual of course.



I bet he does too and I bet he's still a better RB right now than Tater Tott or the 7-8 guys we've lost to IR even if they were 100% health.

What is Travis Henry's status right now? Is he out on bail right now? Such a waste of ball toting talent.

.

Sometimes flag football teams are formed within a given prison.

Maybe he can ply his talents there . . . :coffee:

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[Nature Boy]

Sometimes flag football teams are formed within a given prison.

Maybe he can ply his talents there . . . :coffee:

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Actually they play full contact football with zero pads in the Jail yards. A lot of times it's the inmates versus the guards. Don't ask me how I know this.

.

[Northman]

Sometimes flag football teams are formed within a given prison.

Maybe he can ply his talents there . . . :coffee:

-----

I think ive heard he is cell mates with Clarett and Phillips.

[LordTrychon]

Actually they play full contact football with zero pads in the Jail yards. A lot of times it's the inmates versus the guards. Don't ask me how I know this.

.

Because you watched 'The Longest Yard'?

[Nature Boy]

I think ive heard he is cell mates with Clarett and Phillips.


I'll High five you for your not so funny and not all that clever attempt at comedy if you High Five me for mine. Deal?

:beer: Go have a beer and get off my arse. You've been side busting me since I got back from my ban for self imposing a ban on myself. :confused:

I see that your are a mod now, so please act like one and hold off on the animosity.

Happy Holidays! :salute: :beer:

[Nature Boy]

Because you watched 'The Longest Yard'?

I think I glimpse at the movie and if my memory serves me correct, they wore full pads. Was that the movie with Adam Sandler?

.

[topscribe]

I'll High five you for your not so funny and not all that clever comedic response if you High Five me for mine. Deal?

:beer: Go have a beer and get off my arse. You've been side busting me since I got back from my ban for self imposing a ban on myself. :confused:

I see that your are a mod now, so please act like one and hold off on the animosity.

Happy Holidays! :salute: :beer:

Far as I could see, that is all he was trying to do: make a funny. You need to
stop being so sensitive and realize that you've been pushing buttons all day.

And no, he is not a mod. He decided he had enough of me a while back and
turned in his resignation. ;)

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[Nature Boy]

Far as I could see, that is all he was trying to do: make a funny. You need to
stop being so sensitive and realize that you've been pushing buttons all day.

And no, he is not a mod. He decided he had enough of me a while back and
turned in his resignation. ;)

-----


Great, then that means Anubis should not get special treatment. He hurls dung at me so I will do the same. Please don't take his side as usual. This goes out to all members.

[topscribe]

Great, then that means Anubis should not get special treatment. He hurls dung at me so I will do the same. Please don't take his side as usual. This goes out to all members.

You do enough to keep us mods busy already. Don't add to it.

Now, let us dispense on the board with this conversation right now. Go back
and review the first post in this thread, and try to stick to issues. Northman is
not an issue here.

:focus:

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[Northman]

I'll High five you for your not so funny and not all that clever attempt at comedy if you High Five me for mine. Deal?

:beer: Go have a beer and get off my arse. You've been side busting me since I got back from my ban for self imposing a ban on myself. :confused:

I see that your are a mod now, so please act like one and hold off on the animosity.

Happy Holidays! :salute: :beer:


Actually, im not a Mod any longer. Not that it matters, im having fun with you. Everybody has probably had a player that they were very enamored with that no one else really cared for. I just wont name mine. But, i am just ribbing ya. :D

[bengaaaaals1688]

Thanks Tops for confirming that I am right... as usual of course. Please tell Jwiz and the Bungles fan that. They apparently believe WW is only 212lbs. LOL!

I'm gonna say this again, and slowly so that you might be able to understand it...

I... Don't... Care... How... Big... He... Is... I... Have... No... Opinion... On... How... Much... He... Weighs... He... Said... He... Is... 212... Pounds... He... Knows... His... Weight... Better... Than... You... Thanks... For... Your... Time.:rolleyes:

[Nature Boy]

I'm gonna say this again, and slowly so that you might be able to understand it...

I... Don't... Care... How... Big... He... Is... I... Have... No... Opinion... On... How... Much... He... Weighs... He... Said... He... Is... 212... Pounds... He... Knows... His... Weight... Better... Than... You... Thanks... For... Your... Time.:rolleyes:


Apparently I have to type in Ebonics for you to understand. But I don't know Ebonics so I can't help you. Go read the post Topscribe posted above where Mike Shanahan says Wesley Woodyard is in the 220's lbs. That's all. We are done with Wesley Woodyard's weight.

[bengaaaaals1688]

Apparently I have to type in Ebonics for you to understand. But I don't know Ebonics so I can't help you. Go read the post Topscribe posted above where Mike Shanahan says Wesley Woodyard is in the 220's lbs. That's all. We are done with Wesley Woodyard's weight.

Maybe you need to learn how to read where I say I don't care about his weight and I was talking about your statement that you know his weight better than he does. I haven't mentioned a weight, I haven't given an opinion, because I don't have one... Get it through your thick skull that I'm not arguing what the man's weight is, I'm telling you that you need to learn how to read and listen.

[topscribe]

Second request: Let's all end this silly conversation on Woodyard's weight.

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[Nature Boy]

Maybe you need to learn how to read where I say I don't care about his weight and I was talking about your statement that you know his weight better than he does. I haven't mentioned a weight, I haven't given an opinion, because I don't have one... Get it through your thick skull that I'm not arguing what the man's weight is, I'm telling you that you need to learn how to read and listen.


You don't know squat.