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Tned
10-06-2011, 09:18 PM
Tned’s Take: Shock to the system - Broncos fans learn how the other half lives

The last two years have been a rude awakening for many Broncos fans. Let’s take a little trip down memory lane.

It was just a few short years ago, after three straight playoff appearances, which included a trip to the AFC Championship game – just one win away from a Super Bowl appearance – that fans were calling the post Elway years a total failure.

During the two plus decades of the Bowlen era, fans had seen the Broncos go to the playoffs 14 times in 23 years, which included six AFC Championship appearances, five Super Bowl appearances and two Super Bowl wins, against only two losing seasons.

This nearly unprecedented run of NFL success left Broncos fans spoiled and out of touch with how the other half lives.

After two bad first round losses to the Indianapolis colts in 2003 and 2004, and then a loss to the Steelers in the 2005 Championship game, the prominent fan perception was that Mike Shanahan couldn’t win without Elway. It was time for a change, because the Broncos only had one playoff win in the seven post Elway years. The fact that they made it to the playoffs four times, and only had one losing season after their Hall of Fame quarterback retired was little consolation.

After that 23 year run of success, Broncos fans believed winning was a Denver birthright, that anything short of a Super Bowl win was a failure. If Mike Shanahan couldn’t get them to the Super Bowl without John Elway, it was time for a new coach, because in Denver, anything short of a championship was simply unacceptable.

The fact that the seven years between their Super Bowl loss following the ’89 season, and the Super Bowl win in ’97, the Broncos only had three playoff appearances and one playoff win WITH John Elway was like a bad childhood memory compartmentalized and locked away as if it didn’t happen.

The fact that the Broncos averaged more wins and had more playoff appearances in the seven years after Elway retired, than in the seven years prior to the first Super Bowl win didn’t matter, because now that the Broncos had won a Super Bowl, anything short of another championship was a failure.

When it was pointed out to fans that few, if any, other teams in the modern, free agency NFL had gone through such a run of success, with only two losing seasons against all of those playoff appearances, and that most teams went through rebuilding periods consisting of low, single digit wins every six to twelve years as part of the cyclical nature of the NFL, the Broncos fans would simply reply “Denver isn’t like Detroit or Cleveland, Denver is a winning franchise.”

Really? What birthright granted to the Denver Broncos made the franchise immune to the cyclical rebuilding that every other NFL team experiences?
Even when you include the last three years under Shanahan, when the Broncos were only one game over .500, but twice just missed the playoffs, and look at the 10 years post Elway, the fans of all but a handful of teams not name New England or Indinapolis would have taken those “dark years” in a heartbeat. However, the Broncos fans called it a failure. Said that the years post Elway were a decade of failure.

A failure.

A decade following the retirement of their hall of fame quarterback and the loss of their NFL and Super Bowl MVP rusher, not to mention the rest of the players on those Super Bowl teams retiring or being slowed by age, was a failure. A decade of failure.

Let’s define failure as Broncos fans define failure.

A decade where the team averages 9.1 wins a year. A decade where the team made the playoffs four years, made it to the AFC Championship game, and only included two losing seasons, the worst of which was a six win season against four double digit win seasons.

A failure.

Broncos fans just learned a harsh reality, and that is life post Shanahan has been much worse than life post Elway. Broncos fans now know how the other half lives. While they are looking up at Detroit, Buffalo, Cleveland and other teams without Denver’s birthright of winning, Broncos fans have experienced just seven wins in the last thirty games – a 7-23 record.

The fans that screamed ‘failure’ when the team averaged over nine wins a season for a decade after John Elway retired, have endured failure so great that they picked second in the NFL draft for the first time in team history. Failure so bad that the team has had only seven wins over the last 30 games.

Maybe Denver fans needed this stretch of failure to humble them. Needed the Broncos to hit rock bottom so that their fans would realize that winning in Denver was in fact not a divine birthright, but instead was a run of good fortune, good coaching and good management that few, if any, NFL fans have ever experienced in the last three plus decades of NFL football.

The Broncos will be returned to a winning franchise. It might happen this year, or next year, or three or four years from now. While it’s not possible to predict when it will happen, the history and cyclical nature of the NFL shows us that it’s only a matter of time.

The only question is when the Broncos are once again a winning team, whether the newly humbled Broncos fans will cherish it or once again take it for granted.

hotcarl
10-06-2011, 09:28 PM
wow. relax man, it's just a game.

Tned
10-06-2011, 09:29 PM
wow. relax man, it's just a game.

Mod privileges revoked!

hotcarl
10-06-2011, 09:32 PM
Mod privileges revoked!

Just showing some funny time exchanges we could have as a mod team, constructive criticism noted, will improve... Good post fyi

Denver Native (Carol)
10-06-2011, 09:42 PM
Great post Tned. As I have followed the Broncos since they started, and we know that was really bad for years, and then thru the great times, I read many posts on here, and just have to shake my head as to how negative some of them are. As you said, all teams go thru good and bad times. After the Broncos first became a football team, how many years did it take for them to reach the playoffs and then the SuperBowl? I love the Broncos, and will root for them - no matter how good or how bad they are.

Tned
10-06-2011, 09:50 PM
Great post Tned. As I have followed the Broncos since they started, and we know that was really bad for years, and then thru the great times, I read many posts on here, and just have to shake my head as to how negative some of them are. As you said, all teams go thru good and bad times. After the Broncos first became a football team, how many years did it take for them to reach the playoffs and then the SuperBowl? I love the Broncos, and will root for them - no matter how good or how bad they are.

Exactly. Even some of the fans that say they have been die-hard from the '60s seem to have forgotten how bad things were in the early years, and got so used to the winning ways, they just assumed they would always be here.

Look at the Colts, NE or any other team, and you will find 1, 2, 3 type win seasons in the last couple decades or so, when the Broncos had a low point of 5 wins prior to last season.

It literally made me sick in the latter half of the past decade when people talked about it as a failure for the Broncos, because in order to make that statement, you have to be totally out of touch with the reality of winning and losing in the NFL.

If there is anything that I hope comes out of this dismal couple years, it isn't a great linebacker in Von Miller, or maybe a great QB drafted in 2012, it's that when the Broncos get back to being a playoff contender that fans appreciate and cherish it more this time around.

jhildebrand
10-06-2011, 09:50 PM
If HotCarl is a mod, I need to be a mod too to balance it out :D

Tned
10-06-2011, 09:51 PM
If HotCarl is a mod, I need to be a mod too to balance it out :D

He was fired less than a half our after he was hired. Shortest tenure in message board mod history...

jhildebrand
10-06-2011, 09:56 PM
He was fired less than a half our after he was hired. Shortest tenure in message board mod history...

Guess you dodged a bullet eh :elefant:

Tned
10-06-2011, 09:57 PM
Guess you dodged a bullet eh :elefant:

Exactly.

Hey, did you read my latest brief post here? ;-) Not to try and bring it back on topic or anything.... :D

Northman
10-06-2011, 10:02 PM
So now if your not happy with the way the franchise is going it makes you a bad fan apparently.

Wow, um ok.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-06-2011, 10:02 PM
Also, I shake my head when I read that the current regime should listen to the fans as to who is on the field playing. I laugh to myself and think - do you really think that Lou Saban, Dan Reeves or Mike Shanahan would have listened to the fans - I think not. One night, not long ago, Ron Zappollo, who was a sports caster for years on Denver tv, and now is a news anchor, made the statement - "If a coach listens to the fans, he will find himself sitting with the fans".

Buff
10-06-2011, 10:15 PM
23 year run of success? What in the world are you talking about?

You just laid out a pretty convincing case for why mediocrity is better than outright sucking... But beyond that, I don't know that I can buy what you're selling.

chazoe60
10-06-2011, 10:19 PM
I agree with a lot of what you're saying tned, but it goes further than the fans. The entire organization felt this sense of "we must win it all now" and what happened was a team that tried to patch giant holes with aging vets. We have been through two regimes that tried it, Shanny's and McD's. It appeared as though, with the almost trade of Orton and the drafting of some very good young talent, especially on the defensive side, that this new regime was fully invested in fixing this team for the long haul.

But, then the decision to start Orton, and I know it's getting tiresome reading about it but it really is the one thing this organization is doing that is absolutely thumbing their nose at the long term health of this franchise.

I made a thread about it a couple of months ago. The problem with this franchise right now is that we have never had a sustained era of suckage (3 to 5 years of top 5-10 draft picks) that would allow us to build a juggernaut through the draft. The draft is the only true way to build a great, long lasting elite franchise.

I know your post was more about how the fans became some what spoiled from a franchise that always fielded competitive teams and that now we are experiencing what most other franchises go through at some point, so I am sorry for the slightly off course rant.


One scary thing to think about is the simple fact that if you take away the Elway years this franchise has almost always been on the losing end. We have had one true Franchise QB and luckily he stayed and performed at an astronomical level for 16 years, otherwise we have not done much at all. No franchise in the NFL yearns for a franchise QB quite like this one, and sticking with Orton is just wasting time that we could be using to see if Tebow is that guy.



Sorry for going off on so many odd little tangents.

Thnikkaman
10-06-2011, 10:23 PM
way to take it personally North.

Northman
10-06-2011, 10:25 PM
I agree with a lot of what you're saying tned,

I dont.

Besides a handful of fans i dont recall many people saying we sucked for a decade. There were fans who knew we had to get better in certain areas but that happens every year for every team. Now, Denver is the worst shape in years and somehow fans are just supposed to be ho-hum about it? Really? :lol:

Sorry, this "take" is weak sauce. To try and paint people as bad fans because they actually give a damn when they put out a poor product is just weak and really im quite surprised he took a open shot at other fans on this board in the process. You want to talk football? Lets talk football. But lets not make it about the fans because that is just BS. You dont have to suck on the FO's **** to be a great fan. Im disappinted with Tned on this.

Northman
10-06-2011, 10:28 PM
way to take it personally North.

Its basically a personal article taking a shot at other fans because they are unhappy right now.

jhildebrand
10-06-2011, 10:29 PM
If anybody in this town has changed it is the media NOT the fans.

This fanbase has always been fanatic, crazy, vocal and irrational when it comes to this team. That is why we have been labeled one of the best. We haven't been one to sit back and let the team operate in a vacuum. Why should we all of a sudden be OK with a bad product? :confused:

As to Carol's point, you don't think the team got the message loud and clear when Reeves drafted Maddox? :confused: I know Zappolo has been here for a long time. But so have I. Not only did Reeves underestimate that but Elway used the FANBASE to ensure that it was Reeves ticket out of town! Try to tell me that was a decision that wasn't made listening to the Fanbase. At that point #7 was still the guy who was more akin to what Plummer was than the hero he is now known for-a guy who can win you games but will lose the big one, will break your heart with bad throws, etc... The fans knew better and wanted NO PART of Maddox (despite the hype) and let it be known.

There were some of us who were vocal about Shanahan's time ending. You don't think that emoboldened ellis? We were vocal about McDaniels. Name the last coach Bowlen fired mid season. Oh that's right! He didn't. He got the fans message loud and clear on that one too! There are some in the media who were so entrenched with McD, like the T2 drama, that to this day they still can't see him for what he was!

They finally listened to the fans and played T2 for 3 games last season. Studesville got it. Orton wasn't hurt! He was throwing 60 yard bombs in practice-remember.

The bottom line here is like Tned mentioned in his "Shockjocks" thread that some are so entrenched in their position with Orton that they now wont back away from it at any cost.

Now all of a sudden it is wrong to hope for this team to lose or want to see any one other than Orton for just the remainder of this season BUT it is ok to want to lose out with Orton even on purpose to get Luck/Jones.

Questioning fanhood is a terrible and ALWAYS LOSING proposition and the media should not be doing that!

Tned
10-06-2011, 10:30 PM
So now if your not happy with the way the franchise is going it makes you a bad fan apparently.

Wow, um ok.

Way to read between the lines when there's nothing's there to read. Did I say anything about being bad fans or not true fans? The point of the post was about perspective and that many of us lost it following the great years.

Northman
10-06-2011, 10:31 PM
Way to read between the lines when there's nothing's there to read. Did I say anything about being bad fans or not true fans? The point of the post was about perspective and that many of us lost it following the great years.

Who?

Thnikkaman
10-06-2011, 10:34 PM
good read T.

For me, I would just be fine if the org.would admit that we are rebuilding. as a fan, I'd appreciate some honesty. but being the homer that I am. I don't require it.

Tned
10-06-2011, 10:35 PM
Its basically a personal article taking a shot at other fans because they are unhappy right now.

Dude, it has NOTHING to do with being unhappy NOW, every fan should be unhappy with right now. I'm ******* pissed about right now and the way McDaniels trashed the roster and that the front office LET HIM trash the roster.

It's my opinion, you know the thing that gets posted on message boards, about the lack of perspective that called '00 - '05 failures, because anything short of a championship is a failure.

Thnikkaman
10-06-2011, 10:37 PM
thats your perspective. and your welcome to it.

sorry this was a reply to norths reply to me. yay mobile.

jhildebrand
10-06-2011, 10:38 PM
At the end of the day the QB drama drives all of this. At the bottom of that there are two things the Orton crowd can't substantiate:

1. What playing Orton any further this season does for this team now or in the future
2. That it was a genuinely open competition.

The fact is this is a QB's league and has been for a long time now. We get that. Either youre winning or you aren't and it begins with QB play. Shanahan didn't go 6-20 with Griese to find out he wasn't the one. He didn't go 6-20 with Plummer to pull the plug. He didn't with McNabb. He wont with Grossman.

Again, this is all driven by the QB position. The Bronco fans have been loyal for years. We have tolerated some bad seasons in the past. But to question us because we are tired of a 6-20 QB making the exact same mistakes to the point every sunday is Groundhog day is wrong!

Again, questioning fanhood is a bad idea and always a losing proposition. I am surprised to see it here. I could just as easily question why people think being a fan is marching in lockstep with the organization. That has happened with the Rockies, the Lions at one point, the Saints, the Raiders.

At some point after long bouts of losing it comes down to the fanbase AS A WHOLE wising up and not supporting the product at all-it finally happened in Oakland, NO, and SD. The Avs saw it! People there saw and knew and became accustomed to winning that they wouldn't tolerate a bad product. The organization got the message!

Northman
10-06-2011, 10:40 PM
Dude, it has NOTHING to do with being unhappy NOW, every fan should be unhappy with right now. I'm ******* pissed about right now and the way McDaniels trashed the roster and that the front office LET HIM trash the roster.

It's my opinion, you know the thing that gets posted on message boards, about the lack of perspective that called '00 - '05 failures, because anything short of a championship is a failure.


I guess i just fail to see where there is this massive group that your talking about that see it that way. Especially on this board. I mean, do you have some sort of statistics that show many people calling that time a failure? Ive seen one guy on this board who thought that Shanny sucked balls during that time, but he is no longer here.

From what i read on this board NO ONE has lost perspective of that. In fact, some have even wished for it too be back to even that way right now. I guess it would be easier to follow if you could tell me who these people are. I just dont see that mantra on here that your trying to convey.

Tned
10-06-2011, 10:45 PM
At the end of the day the QB drama drives all of this. At the bottom of that there are two things the Orton crowd can't substantiate:

1. What playing Orton any further this season does for this team now or in the future
2. That it was a genuinely open competition.

The fact is this is a QB's league and has been for a long time now. We get that. Either youre winning or you aren't and it begins with QB play. Shanahan didn't go 6-20 with Griese to find out he wasn't the one. He didn't go 6-20 with Plummer to pull the plug. He didn't with McNabb. He wont with Grossman.

Again, this is all driven by the QB position. The Bronco fans have been loyal for years. We have tolerated some bad seasons in the past. But to question us because we are tired of a 6-20 QB making the exact same mistakes to the point every sunday is Groundhog day is wrong!

Again, questioning fanhood is a bad idea and always a losing proposition. I am surprised to see it here. I could just as easily question why people think being a fan is marching in lockstep with the organization. That has happened with the Rockies, the Lions at one point, the Saints, the Raiders.

At some point after long bouts of losing it comes down to the fanbase AS A WHOLE wising up and not supporting the product at all-it finally happened in Oakland, NO, and SD. The Avs saw it! People there saw and knew and became accustomed to winning that they wouldn't tolerate a bad product. The organization got the message!

Well, since you and North BOTH missed the point wildly, I guess I will have to take some blame in how I wrote it.

As I told North (probably as you were typing this), it has NOTHING to questioning this season, or the 6-20 QB.

The point, which I thought was pretty clear, since some of the readers clearly got it was that this stretch of failure will hopefully make all of us appreciate the winning seasons, even those that didn't end with a SB win, more than we have in the past.

Maybe you and North didn't listen to sports radio or participate on forums in '04, 05, 06, 07 and such. Didn't see people talking about the post Elway, Shanahan years being a complete failure, but MANY, many fans claimed that, which is simply a lack of perspective in terms of what other teams, other fans go through in the NFL.

Tned
10-06-2011, 10:47 PM
I guess i just fail to see where there is this massive group that your talking about that see it that way. Especially on this board. I mean, do you have some sort of statistics that show many people calling that time a failure? Ive seen one guy on this board who thought that Shanny sucked balls during that time, but he is no longer here.

From what i read on this board NO ONE has lost perspective of that. In fact, some have even wished for it too be back to even that way right now. I guess it would be easier to follow if you could tell me who these people are. I just dont see that mantra on here that your trying to convey.

If I say it isn't you, will you stop taking it so personal?

All you would have to do is go back and review threads early in the McD era, around the time of the Cutler trade, and even before that in the last couple years of the Cutler era, and there were a LOT of fans claiming it and that still claim it. It still comes up now in threads.

jhildebrand
10-06-2011, 10:47 PM
I am way too worked up here. Sorry to all the posters in this thread.

During the end of the Shanahan era, I can recall how so many, especially on a national level, commented how spoiled we were. We were. We were always in the thick of it until the end. That is what matters, because once you get in the PO's, anything can happen.

What should be faulted for that era is Shanahan's drafting failures and his revolving door at DC. A lot was made of it at the time but not enough IMO. But, Shanahan EARNED that right by producing right away!

Now is a different story. This organization doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. They haven't earned it. They should be out to prove to us that they are listening and will do right by us-a failure on McD with his Kremlin like ways with Info. But i am getting away again.

I guess I am just full of piss and vinegar tonight and need to simmer down :D

Northman
10-06-2011, 10:48 PM
Well, since you and North BOTH missed the point wildly, I guess I will have to take some blame in how I wrote it.

As I told North (probably as you were typing this), it has NOTHING to questioning this season, or the 6-20 QB.

The point, which I thought was pretty clear, since some of the readers clearly got it was that this stretch of failure will hopefully make all of us appreciate the winning seasons, even those that didn't end with a SB win, more than we have in the past.

Maybe you and North didn't listen to sports radio or participate on forums in '04, 05, 06, 07 and such. Didn't see people talking about the post Elway, Shanahan years being a complete failure, but MANY, many fans claimed that, which is simply a lack of perspective in terms of what other teams, other fans go through in the NFL.

Actually, ive been a part of the forums (first ESPN, Then the Mane) since 2003 and i never saw that which you claim. Sure, i saw a "few" people say things like that but i think your really overblowing those few people here. People were smart enough to understand Denver had problems, especially on the defensive side of the ball but no one outside of a few select people were calling those years failures.

Nomad
10-06-2011, 10:49 PM
There's always a light at the end of the tunnel and this team will bounce back. It's preposterous to believe anyone is any better of a fan because they went through the beginning phases of the franchise and losing seasons. Fans are more vocal nowadays because of the internet and there are many fans out there that are very knowledgable to the game and are voicing their displeasure with the organization.

That would be like saying you're not as much of an American because you didn't have to go through the depression.

jhildebrand
10-06-2011, 10:51 PM
Well, since you and North BOTH missed the point wildly, I guess I will have to take some blame in how I wrote it.

As I told North (probably as you were typing this), it has NOTHING to questioning this season, or the 6-20 QB.

The point, which I thought was pretty clear, since some of the readers clearly got it was that this stretch of failure will hopefully make all of us appreciate the winning seasons, even those that didn't end with a SB win, more than we have in the past.


Don't blame your writing. I just flew off the handle :lol:

My sincere apologies, Tned.



Maybe you and North didn't listen to sports radio or participate on forums in '04, 05, 06, 07 and such. Didn't see people talking about the post Elway, Shanahan years being a complete failure, but MANY, many fans claimed that, which is simply a lack of perspective in terms of what other teams, other fans go through in the NFL.

I do remember. The argument was always "What has Shanahan done without Elway." I always commented that he still won 70% of his games post elway more than he did IIRC than when he had him.

I know Rav had a post saved for the people who insisted as much.

Again, I am just worked up because I listen to too much sports talk in this town and can't recall another time like this where the FO and media were in lockstep against the fans to the point of insulting their intelligence and belittling them.

Despite Shanahan's failures WE WERE STILL SPOILED!

Northman
10-06-2011, 10:53 PM
There's always a light at the end of the tunnel and this team will bounce back. It's preposterous to believe anyone is any better of a fan because they went through the beginning phases of the franchise and losing seasons. Fans are more vocal nowadays because of the internet and there are many fans out there that are very knowledgable to the game and are voicing their displeasure with the organization.

That would be like saying you're not as much of an American because you didn't have to go through the depression.


Thank you. Exactly.

Tned
10-06-2011, 10:55 PM
I am way too worked up here. Sorry all in this thread.

During the end of the Shanahan era, I can recall how so many, especially on a national level, commented how spoiled we were. We were. We were always in the thick of it until the end. That is what matters, because once you get in the PO's, anything can happen.

What should be faulted for that era is Shanahan's drafting failures and his revolving door at DC. A lot was made of it at the time but not enough IMO. But, Shanahan EARNED that right by producing right away!

Now is a different story. This organization doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. They haven't earned it. They should be out to prove to us that they are listening and will do right by us-a failure on McD with his Kremlin like ways with Info. But i am getting away again.

I guess I am just full of piss and vinegar tonight and need to simmer down :D

Thanks for making my point. No place in my post did I say the franchise NOW should get the benefit of the doubt or fans shouldn't be pissed at the way the franchise was torched in the last few years.

What I talked about was that a lot of fans didn't appreciate the post Elway years, with that "one playoff win" and all, and that this horrible stretch after McDaniels was allowed to destroy the franchise will hopefully allow all of us to appreciate more the winning ways when they return again.

I've been saying for years, the same thing you've said, which is if you get in the playoffs, anything can happen. The fact that we ran into a buzz saw Colts team twice (probably the number one worst matchup for Denver in those years) and a Juggernaut running/defensive team in Pitt, doesn't mean those years were 'failures' IMO.

jhildebrand
10-06-2011, 10:59 PM
What I talked about was that a lot of fans didn't appreciate the post Elway years, with that "one playoff win" and all,.

I appreciated it then. I was at the NE win and the AFCCG against Pitt.

We can all agree that looking back on it we should have been more appreciative and can defintiely view them more accurately in hindsight!

I didn't like Shanahans drafting 01 on. I didn't like his constant tinkering with the D. But wasn't as vocal about the guy, like I am now, because he earned the right to run the team his way. I only decided Shanahan's time should be up when he flirted with FL. To me that was a sign that the facade had cracked and denver was stale to him.

Northman
10-06-2011, 11:02 PM
Thanks for making my point. No place in my post did I say the franchise NOW should get the benefit of the doubt or fans shouldn't be pissed at the way the franchise was torched in the last few years.

What I talked about was that a lot of fans didn't appreciate the post Elway years, with that "one playoff win" and all, and that this horrible stretch after McDaniels was allowed to destroy the franchise will hopefully allow all of us to appreciate more the winning ways when they return again.

I've been saying for years, the same thing you've said, which is if you get in the playoffs, anything can happen. The fact that we ran into a buzz saw Colts team twice (probably the number one worst matchup for Denver in those years) and a Juggernaut running/defensive team in Pitt, doesn't mean those years were 'failures' IMO.

I still think your overly exaggerating how many people actually felt that way but whatever. I just dont think taking a shot at the fans whether they feel that way or not is very good and kind of goes against the COC for me. Fans have the right to feel however they want about what they want. They are the ones who put the emotion into it and if they feel that Shanahan was a failure than thats their opinion. I just think we should keep the discussions on the actual football team and not try to challenge the fans for their fanhood.

Tned
10-06-2011, 11:09 PM
I still think your overly exaggerating how many people actually felt that way but whatever. I just dont think taking a shot at the fans whether they feel that way or not is very good and kind of goes against the COC for me. Fans have the right to feel however they want about what they want. They are the ones who put the emotion into it and if they feel that Shanahan was a failure than thats their opinion. I just think we should keep the discussions on the actual football team and not try to challenge the fans for their fanhood.

Goes against the COC? Are you serious? At this point I'm beginning to think you are just screwing with me, because there is no way you can be taking my little opinion piece this serious that you would call it an attack that's against the forum rules.

I like to write, which should be obvious. I wrote a piece about perspective, and how looking back, hopefully some of the fans that didn't appreciate the playoff appearances and double digit wins, and lack of losing seasons of the past, will appreciate them more when the return, even when a season doesn't end with a SB win (that can be in part blamed on Shanny with his comments about SB or bust).

As to your experience with fans calling the Shanahan years, post Elway, a failure or the like, it is different than mine, possibly because we were on different boards during most of that time. On Mania and here, it was pretty common for people to talk about it as a wasted decade, a failure, etc.

Regardless, I've been writing some opinion pieces to try and give us something to talk about other than Orton and Tebow.

Honest to God I am sorry you took offense to this. Never in my wildest dreams did I think anyone would react to it the way you did. Maybe that's on me. I don't know, but I just don't see how writing a piece on fan perspective is so offensive and wrong.

MOtorboat
10-06-2011, 11:12 PM
It's accurate, its well written and I agree.

Fans of this team have absolutely lost their minds in the last season and a half. Sometimes, a reality check is needed.

I know people hate me for this opinion, but why are fans immune to criticism? Even mild criticism, such as this?

BeefStew25
10-06-2011, 11:18 PM
F-15's on Sunday.


:thrasher:

jhildebrand
10-06-2011, 11:18 PM
The slogan to fire shanahan was: "One playoff win in 10 years." There is merit to the op.

jhildebrand
10-06-2011, 11:18 PM
F-15's on Sunday.


:thrasher:

Damn it, beef! Read the thread :mad:

Northman
10-06-2011, 11:19 PM
Goes against the COC? Are you serious?

I didnt say it WAS against the COC. Only that it kind of felt like you were taking a shot at fans.


At this point I'm beginning to think you are just screwing with me, because there is no way you can be taking my little opinion piece this serious that you would call it an attack that's against the forum rules.

Again, never said it actually WAS.


I like to write, which should be obvious. I wrote a piece about perspective, and how looking back, hopefully some of the fans that didn't appreciate the playoff appearances and double digit wins, and lack of losing seasons of the past, will appreciate them more when the return, even when a season doesn't end with a SB win (that can be in part blamed on Shanny with his comments about SB or bust).

By all means, continue to write. Ive enjoyed your other pieces a lot. This one not so much. It happens.


As to your experience with fans calling the Shanahan years, post Elway, a failure or the like, it is different than mine, possibly because we were on different boards during most of that time. On Mania and here, it was pretty common for people to talk about it as a wasted decade, a failure, etc.

I guess we just agree to disagree. I floated around to sites like that and never saw this "massive" outrage during that time.


Regardless, I've been writing some opinion pieces to try and give us something to talk about other than Orton and Tebow.

Awesome, keep it up.


Honest to God I am sorry you took offense to this. Never in my wildest dreams did I think anyone would react to it the way you did. Maybe that's on me. I don't know, but I just don't see how writing a piece on fan perspective is so offensive and wrong.

Nah, you know im cool with you. By the time i get off line i wont even care about this. I guess i just disagree on the topic that you decided to write about. From my perspective it just looked like a pot shot. But, life goes on.

Tned
10-06-2011, 11:19 PM
for those that didn't understand the point of my opinion piece, it is FAR less about the last couple years, as it is the ten years post Elway.

This line goes a long way to explain:


Broncos fans just learned a harsh reality, and that is life post Shanahan has been much worse than life post Elway.

A ten year stretch with 4 playoff appearances, and only one losing season, while averaging over 9 wins per season, four of which were double digits, and having one AFCCG appearance is considered a good decade by nearly every fan base, but a great many Broncos fans didn't appreciate it at the time.

Northman
10-06-2011, 11:20 PM
The slogan to fire shanahan was: "One playoff win in 10 years." There is merit to the op.

Yes, by like 5 people. :lol:

Sorry, i dont want this to trail on and on but its being highly exaggerated at the amount of people who actually did that kind of bitching.

jhildebrand
10-06-2011, 11:23 PM
At least North has well thought out and logical posts at this point.

Me, I just fly off the handle and my fingers move faster than the rat trap between my ears.

Tned
10-06-2011, 11:25 PM
Yes, by like 5 people. :lol:

Sorry, i dont want this to trail on and on but its being highly exaggerated at the amount of people who actually did that kind of bitching.

North, you really are way off base on this. It wasn't five people. Nearly every thread pro/anti McDaniels thread prior to his firing (and some after) had many, if not most, of the McDaniels defenders defending him by pointing out had bad Shanahan's teams were post Elway.

You may have just glossed over the comments because you knew they were asinine, but they were there.

Northman
10-06-2011, 11:25 PM
At least North has well thought out and logical posts at this point.

Me, I just fly off the handle and my fingers move faster than the rat trap between my ears.


:lol:

Heh, i wouldnt say that. You can ask Tned.

From time to time i still cut loose more than i should and back in the day when i first got here (both as a member and mod) you would of thought i was insane. Ive learned so much since then.... :D

Northman
10-06-2011, 11:26 PM
North, you really are way off base on this. It wasn't five people. Nearly every thread pro/anti McDaniels thread prior to his firing (and some after) had many, if not most, of the McDaniels defenders defending him by pointing out had bad Shanahan's teams were post Elway.

You may have just glossed over the comments because you knew they were asinine, but they were there. I can't remember who it is, but someone has Shanahan's post Elway stats in his sig to address the constant claims that the ten years post Elway were horrid, a failure, and many other similar adjectives.

Maybe.

BeefStew25
10-06-2011, 11:27 PM
North, not everything is about you.

Northman
10-06-2011, 11:27 PM
North, not everything is about you.

Its not. Damn.......

BORDERLINE
10-06-2011, 11:47 PM
Yeah I can see how we have become spoiled over the years. I just believe the real good teams in the NFL have fans that hold the executives accountable. If they don't you end up a fan of a team like the Clippers. Sucking bad and the owner only getting richer. With no actual push to win anything

I Eat Staples
10-07-2011, 12:23 AM
North, not everything is about you.

But its always about hotcarl.

Tned
10-07-2011, 09:10 AM
Ok, did I offend/piss anyone else off posting my opinion piece?

The reason I title these "Tned's Take" is because they are my opinions/commentary. Doesn't mean that everyone will agree.

Northman
10-07-2011, 09:18 AM
The reason I title these "Tned's Take" is because they are my opinions/commentary. Doesn't mean that everyone will agree.


Stay tuned for "North's Take" on my perception of fans being FO **** gobblers.
















JK. :D

Tned
10-07-2011, 09:21 AM
Stay tuned for "North's Take" on my perception of fans being FO **** gobblers.
















JK. :D

D W....

Hey, not too many people have been more critical of the Broncos front office and coaching staff the last 2 1/2 years than I was. Remember we were on totally different sides of the fence on Josh, the Cutler trade, etc.

Krugan
10-07-2011, 09:43 AM
Just my thought, anything short of winning the BOWL, is a failure.

Thats why the game is played...

Denver Native (Carol)
10-07-2011, 09:47 AM
Just my thought, anything short of winning the BOWL, is a failure.

Thats why the game is played...

Looking at it that way - every year 31 teams fail.

Ravage!!!
10-07-2011, 09:48 AM
I don't see how anyone could see this as an opinion that suggests the fans are wrong, they are bad, and the ones that endured early are somehow 'better.' Its purely pointing out that we, as fans, are enduring something many of us have NEVER endured before. We are watching our team be the BOTTOM of the NFL, which is something we NEVER have had (and yes, I totally blame McD on this..... had to be said).

But Tned's post is NOT some attack on fans for being disgruntled by our team's performance on the field. Lets back up and not take everything as being an attack.

Ravage!!!
10-07-2011, 09:50 AM
Just my thought, anything short of winning the BOWL, is a failure.

Thats why the game is played...

I used to believe this, and completely understand that perspective....but I disagree now that I've gotten older. I see that there CAN be success in seasons without winning the Super Bowl. To diminish gain in the small steps that must be taken, is a lack in perspective....imo.

Mike
10-07-2011, 09:52 AM
Thanks for making my point. No place in my post did I say the franchise NOW should get the benefit of the doubt or fans shouldn't be pissed at the way the franchise was torched in the last few years.

What I talked about was that a lot of fans didn't appreciate the post Elway years, with that "one playoff win" and all, and that this horrible stretch after McDaniels was allowed to destroy the franchise will hopefully allow all of us to appreciate more the winning ways when they return again.

I've been saying for years, the same thing you've said, which is if you get in the playoffs, anything can happen. The fact that we ran into a buzz saw Colts team twice (probably the number one worst matchup for Denver in those years) and a Juggernaut running/defensive team in Pitt, doesn't mean those years were 'failures' IMO.

I think most of us did appreciate what we had then. I loved Shanahan and still do. I still feel that moving on was absolutely the right thing to do, both for the Broncos and for Shanahan. While .500 clubs or 1 game above .500 might be easier to tolerate than what McD brought, we were still no closer to the SB.

Those late season collapses and games where the team was entirely unmotivated to play or seemingly stopped listening to the coach was the end. Anything can happen once you get in the playoffs is true. But Shanahan teams in the last two-three years were smoke and mirrors that got exposed before the playoffs and would have been totally dismantled in the playoffs. While .500 isn't failure, it isn't successful either. And it was where we were stuck. One player away philosophy was as old as the washed up vets he kept bringing in that didn't pan out. As was his habit of rewarding failure in the people that he was friends with.

The hard choice had to be made, though it was made easier by Shanahan's decision to stay loyal to unqualified people. The fact that Bowlen made a completely wrong choice doesn't take away from that.

Ravage!!!
10-07-2011, 09:55 AM
Yeah... but with the offensive talent we had on the roster, I would have liked to see 1-2 more years with Shanahan to see what we could have made. Instead, we moved on to the McDork and Shanahan is showing how to go 3-1 with Grossman (a QB that continues to show he's better than Orton).

Northman
10-07-2011, 09:55 AM
Just my thought, anything short of winning the BOWL, is a failure.

Thats why the game is played...


While i agree with Rav, Shannon Sharpe said this very same thing as you did.

Mike
10-07-2011, 10:07 AM
Yeah... but with the offensive talent we had on the roster, I would have liked to see 1-2 more years with Shanahan to see what we could have made. Instead, we moved on to the McDork and Shanahan is showing how to go 3-1 with Grossman (a QB that continues to show he's better than Orton).

I agree he was assembling a nice offense...though the o-line was showing cracks. Though that offense seemingly disappeared late in the seasons...which is where I make my smoke and mirrors argument.

But his real problem was obviously twofold. One, he always neglected the defense and stuck with inadequate coaches who he was loyal to. And two, the players were not responding to him. To me, that was the bigger of the problems and was his undoing.

I think that if he wins his fight against Bowlen and Bowlen gives in, Denver is in the same place they were for the previous years. Close, but not close enough. Good enough to fight for 8-8/9-7.

Dreadnought
10-07-2011, 10:12 AM
If I say it isn't you, will you stop taking it so personal?

All you would have to do is go back and review threads early in the McD era, around the time of the Cutler trade, and even before that in the last couple years of the Cutler era, and there were a LOT of fans claiming it and that still claim it. It still comes up now in threads.

That's how I remember it as well.

Look, to me its almost as if we in the Bronco Nation got our comeuppance. If you are inclined to think this way its almost like some Biblical thing - where we as a fanbase are being afflicted as punishment for our failure to maintain some kind of perspective, appreciating 3 decades of successful football, and saying dopey things like 8-8 seasons were "total failures" and the like.

As a Bronco Fan, Josh McDaniels does bear an eery resemblenceto the ten plagues visited on Pharoah in "The Ten Commandments." Richard Quinn was the plague of Locusts, the Alphonso Smith trade the rain of frogs, etc :D

Hopefully it will take us less time wandering the barren wastes than it did Moses in that Movie. IIR it was 40 years in that case, almost as long as Lions fans have suffered.

Nomad
10-07-2011, 10:23 AM
Ok, did I offend/piss anyone else off posting my opinion piece?

The reason I title these "Tned's Take" is because they are my opinions/commentary. Doesn't mean that everyone will agree.

Nah! Everything has ups and downs and the BRONCOS will be winning again one day. I don't believe it's wrong to expect the franchise to perform at it's highest level. It's frustrating to see them not fix the glaring weakness of the team year in and year out. Yeah, McDaniels did a historical dismantling of a team but it all started with an owner who let him and having a whiny QB who wanted out from the beginning because he didn't get his say when promised.

I guess what I get tired of is the folks who come here with the "I went through the early years approach" and feel they are entitled as some honorary fan because of it. This team isn't starting from stratch, it keeps making the same personnel mistakes year after year and that falls on the owner for hiring bad FO personnel. Elway gets his chance to right the ship and I hope he does because he's done good for this franchise and I hope he's better than Michael Jordan at evaluating talent and Dan Marino as far as running the show.

Tned
10-07-2011, 10:38 AM
I used to believe this, and completely understand that perspective....but I disagree now that I've gotten older. I see that there CAN be success in seasons without winning the Super Bowl. To diminish gain in the small steps that must be taken, is a lack in perspective....imo.

That was the whole point of my post. In my opinion, this "anything short of a Super Bowl is a failure" type mentality is just a bit distorted. As Carol says, that means 31 teams a year fail. Then, when you consider multiple winners of the SB, it means that most teams fail for decades or long at a time.

Obviously, the ultimate goal is winning the Super Bowl, but it isn't realistic to base a team on whether it won the SB. Based on that measure, the Broncos have failed 38 of their 40 years of existence (in NFL), and even if you consider a SB appearance as only a 'partial' failure, then the team has 'failed' 34 of its 40 year existence.

It's akin to saying that a .300 hitter in baseball is a failure because he fails to get a hit 70% of the time.

I'm not saying that '99 to '08 were glory years, but with a little perspective, they were FAR from failures.

Krugan
10-07-2011, 10:52 AM
Looking at it that way - every year 31 teams fail.

Yes they do, there is no other reason to play the season.

Its to be #1, and thats the final straw.

You dont get a ribbon just for showing up, thats a new age idea, and its wrong.

Forgive me if im wrong.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-07-2011, 10:53 AM
As of the 2010 Super Bowl, 14 of the 32 NFL teams have never won a Super Bowl (4 have never been in one) :

Minnesota Vikings (0-4)
Buffalo Bills (0-4)
Cincinnati Bengals (0-2)
Philadelphia Eagles (0-2)
Tennessee Titans (0-1)
San Diego Chargers (0-1)
Atlanta Falcons (0-1)
Carolina Panthers (0-1)
Arizona Cardinals (0-1)
Seattle Seahawks (0-1)
Cleveland Browns
Houston Texans
Jacksonville Jaguars
Detroit Lions

Technically the Chiefs and the Jets only won Super Bowls as AFL teams and never as NFL teams.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Has_any_NFL_team_not_won_a_Super_Bowl_championship

Krugan
10-07-2011, 11:09 AM
How is it unrealistic to assume a season a failure, when the whole point of the season is to win the super bowl?

Its not realistic to assume we will win them all, but the point is, the super bowl is the reason for the game.

All that being said, a steady improvement in reaching the goal is great, but its still not the end game that this sport is designed for.

Thnikkaman
10-07-2011, 11:13 AM
Yes they do, there is no other reason to play the season.

Its to be #1, and thats the final straw.

You dont get a ribbon just for showing up, thats a new age idea, and its wrong.

Forgive me if im wrong.

That's funny, I thought it was the millions in dollars in revenue that the NFL brings in every year. I understand the goal is to be #1, but you got to play to get paid.

Ravage!!!
10-07-2011, 11:17 AM
I agree he was assembling a nice offense...though the o-line was showing cracks. Though that offense seemingly disappeared late in the seasons...which is where I make my smoke and mirrors argument.

But his real problem was obviously twofold. One, he always neglected the defense and stuck with inadequate coaches who he was loyal to. And two, the players were not responding to him. To me, that was the bigger of the problems and was his undoing.

I think that if he wins his fight against Bowlen and Bowlen gives in, Denver is in the same place they were for the previous years. Close, but not close enough. Good enough to fight for 8-8/9-7.

The "late collapses" could also be simply based on having a VERy young team. So I don't buy 'smoke and mirrors' (and honestly don' tknow what that means).

I also don't think the OL was showing cracks when we had what was considered to be one of the best OLs in '08... it was McD that trashed the OL.

I'll agree that the defense had been neglected, but at the same time, the NFL is catered around the offense.. and the offenses in the NFL right now are leading the way in the league. He believed in scoring points first, and scoring points helped the defense. Its a formula that works. So, although I understood the change, I felt it came at exactly the wrong time. IT was THAT time where we needed to keep him rather than let him go.

But.. whats done is done. I said it then and still believe it... that we will now have to go through the carousel of coaches. The most successful team in the NFL has had three coaches. So I'm a firm believer in sticking with good-great coaches when you have them rather than always looking over the fence and thinking the grass is greener.

Mike
10-07-2011, 11:19 AM
How is it unrealistic to assume a season a failure, when the whole point of the season is to win the super bowl?

Its not realistic to assume we will win them all, but the point is, the super bowl is the reason for the game.

All that being said, a steady improvement in reaching the goal is great, but its still not the end game that this sport is designed for.

Seasons and teams can be successful without the SB. It is easier to see successes when your team sucks as bad as ours does.

Which makes the current state of affairs so crappy right now. Instead of ripping off the bandaid they are tooling around and wasting time. It is frustrating and is what has me so negative towards the team.

Shazam!
10-07-2011, 11:33 AM
Not buying this.

We don't (Personally, I don't) expect a Super Bowl championship every year. The only team franchise who's ownership and spoiled rotten fans I know that expects to win a title every year, and if they don't the year is a total failure, is the NY Yankees (which, ironically, lost in the Divisional playoff series last night, ha ha).

I think as Broncos fans we expect to see a playoff contender. A team that is competitive and in the mix for the AFC West every year. Expecting a playoff contender is not the same as a Super Bowl contender.

If I expected the Broncos to win a Championship every year, I'd be even more aggravated.

That's a helluva lot different than talk of a winning birthright or Super Bowl or bust mentality.

As far as Shanahan goes, watching Denver have the worst defense in the NFL nearly two years going (07-08), getting blown out in games, sometimes playing like they not even showed up, and a monumental collapse in 08 (the AFC West was all but won) is what did Shanahan in.

I wish Denver had brought in someone like Fox instead of McDaniels who would've left the Offense entact. Instead we had McDaniels who was allowed to come in and completey dismantle the team. I cannot understand how Ellis and Bowlen allowed him to come in and get rid of most the best players on the team.

Shanahan deserved to get fired. Too many mistakes were made post-Shanahan as well as post-Elway.

silkamilkamonico
10-07-2011, 11:57 AM
Shanahan won't make me a believer in Washington until he actually starts winning some playoff games, something that very well won't happen for a while.

Everybody knows he can win in the regular season and he's a good coach, his downfall IMO is that he values the regular season over the playoffs. Shanahan's pecking order of importance has always been

1) SuperBowl
2) Regular season
3) playoffs
4) division

You can't win the SuperBowl if you can't get through the regular season, and more importantly, the playoffs. The division should be the #1 value of importance, IMO, to building a dynasty of sorts.

Dreadnought
10-07-2011, 12:12 PM
That's funny, I thought it was the millions in dollars in revenue that the NFL brings in every year. I understand the goal is to be #1, but you got to play to get paid.

I would argue that the point of a Season is simply to win as many games as possible. If you do it well enough you may end up with a Superbowl, which is bonus. 12-4 is better than 10-6, which is is better than 8-8. 8-8 is better than 6-10, which is in turn better than 4-12. That part of it is easy.

Ravage!!!
10-07-2011, 12:17 PM
Shanahan won't make me a believer in Washington until he actually starts winning some playoff games, something that very well won't happen for a while.

Everybody knows he can win in the regular season and he's a good coach, his downfall IMO is that he values the regular season over the playoffs. Shanahan's pecking order of importance has always been

1) SuperBowl
2) Regular season
3) playoffs
4) division

You can't win the SuperBowl if you can't get through the regular season, and more importantly, the playoffs. The division should be the #1 value of importance, IMO, to building a dynasty of sorts.


Not sure how you figure this order. YOu can't get to the playoffs if you don't win the regular season games. You can't win the division if you don't win the regular season games. You win games in the regular season, one game at a time. So the ultimate goal is the Super Bowl, and you get there by going through the regular season first.

We won our first Super Bowl without winning the division. I don't think winning the division is the #1 priority, because its still one game at a time after that.

TXBRONC
10-07-2011, 12:22 PM
That's how I remember it as well.

Look, to me its almost as if we in the Bronco Nation got our comeuppance. If you are inclined to think this way its almost like some Biblical thing - where we as a fanbase are being afflicted as punishment for our failure to maintain some kind of perspective, appreciating 3 decades of successful football, and saying dopey things like 8-8 seasons were "total failures" and the like.

As a Bronco Fan, Josh McDaniels does bear an eery resemblenceto the ten plagues visited on Pharoah in "The Ten Commandments." Richard Quinn was the plague of Locusts, the Alphonso Smith trade the rain of frogs, etc :D

Hopefully it will take us less time wandering the barren wastes than it did Moses in that Movie. IIR it was 40 years in that case, almost as long as Lions fans have suffered.

McDaniels is final plague of the ten. He was the angel of death. :shocked:

silkamilkamonico
10-07-2011, 12:25 PM
Not sure how you figure this order because I don't see that making much sense. YOu can't get to the playoffs if you don't win the regular season games. You can't win the division ifyou don't win the regular season games. You win games in the regular season, one game at a time. So the ultimate goal is the Super Bowl, and you get there by going through the regular season first.

We won our first Super Bowl without winning the division. I don't think winning the division is the #1 priority, because its still one game at a time after that.

We won our first SuperBowl without winning the division, followed by winning a second consecutive SuperBowl, followed by 1 playoff win and 1 division title, in the next 9 seasons under Shanahan. Since the GOAT#7 retired, Denver is worst in the AFCWest for Division Championships.

You win your division, you become a team like New England, Indianapolis, San Diego, Pittsburgh, who see the playoffs every year. They have mini dynasty of sorts. They weren't a flash in the pan like the Panthers, or the Giants, or the Cardinals, who lucked their way to the SuperBowl on a fluke year.

Shanahan got blown out in more playoff games by the same team, then he won, since GOAT#7 retired.

Nomad
10-07-2011, 12:30 PM
I would argue that the point of a Season is simply to win as many games as possible. If you do it well enough you may end up with a Superbowl, which is bonus. 12-4 is better than 10-6, which is is better than 8-8. 8-8 is better than 6-10, which is in turn better than 4-12. That part of it is easy.

This is probably a good summarization of how to look at a season but in the end, it's at the top where you want to be. I expect this franchise to hire the best, get the best, play the best. When the team keeps making the same mistakes over and over, you know that the team will not win many games. That's the frustrating part.

I find it lame to compare other teams that's never did win or believe you're self righteous because you went through the early days (I know I'm repeating myself because I see the same ones here and at BM repeating themselves). That's like saying I'm satisfied with just passing the class instead of striving to do your best. And Krugan is right in a way as far as everyone gets a ribbon for participating.

Ravage!!!
10-07-2011, 12:35 PM
We won our first SuperBowl without winning the division, followed by winning a second consecutive SuperBowl, followed by 1 playoff win and 1 division title, in the next 9 seasons under Shanahan. Since the GOAT#7 retired, Denver was worst in the AFCWest for Division Championships.

You win your division, you become a team like New England, Indianapolis, San Diego, Pittsburgh, who not only see the playoffs basically every year.

Shanahan got blown out in more playoff games by the same team, then he won, since GOAT#7 retired.

But you have to win the regular season to get to the playoffs. You have to win the regular season games to win the division. I don't see how you can possibly make the "division title" a priority considering you have to win throughout the season just to reach that goal.

You win the division by winning.... period. You win one game at a time, and the 'division' titles follow that. NE, Indy, and Pitt win their regular season games first.. the rest follow. Its funny about the teams you just listed. They have HoF QBs (except SD). How were those teams doing BEFORE their HoF/FQB QB came behind center? I know this, they weren't doing as well as Denver did without ours.

silkamilkamonico
10-07-2011, 12:47 PM
I know you have to win regular season games to get to the playoffs, so why couldn't SHanahan build on that in Denver? He got 9 more seasons after the SuperBowls, and he couldn't build anything. Through 9 seasons, all those regular season wins amounted to 1 meager playoff victory. That is absolutely staggering.

TXBRONC
10-07-2011, 12:53 PM
We won our first SuperBowl without winning the division, followed by winning a second consecutive SuperBowl, followed by 1 playoff win and 1 division title, in the next 9 seasons under Shanahan. Since the GOAT#7 retired, Denver is worst in the AFCWest for Division Championships.

You win your division, you become a team like New England, Indianapolis, San Diego, Pittsburgh, who see the playoffs every year. They have mini dynasty of sorts. They weren't a flash in the pan like the Panthers, or the Giants, or the Cardinals, who lucked their way to the SuperBowl on a fluke year.

Shanahan got blown out in more playoff games by the same team, then he won, since GOAT#7 retired.

What's the main ingredient that New England, Indianapolis, San Diego, and Pittsburgh have in common and for that matter the New York Giants? They ALL have a franchise quarterback. The Patriots, Colts, Steelers and Giants combined have seven of the ten Super Bowl titles available from 01-10.

silkamilkamonico
10-07-2011, 12:56 PM
What's the main ingredient that New England, Indianapolis, San Diego, and Pittsburgh have in common and for that matter the New York Giants? They ALL have a franchise quarterback. The Patriots, Colts, Steelers and Giants combined have seven of the ten Super Bowl titles available from 01-10.

Agreed, and maybe that's proof of just how overrated a coach could possibly be, like Shanahan.

Without a franchise QB, even the best coaches cannot win the big games.

Tned
10-07-2011, 12:59 PM
What's the main ingredient that New England, Indianapolis, San Diego, and Pittsburgh have in common and for that matter the New York Giants? They ALL have a franchise quarterback. The Patriots, Colts, Steelers and Giants combined have seven of the ten Super Bowl titles available from 01-10.

It's also important to remember that while SD has had a 'recent' run of making the playoffs between '06 and '09, the Chargers had almost no playoff success before that.

Canmore
10-07-2011, 01:09 PM
It's also important to remember that while SD has had a 'recent' run of making the playoffs between '06 and '09, the Chargers had almost no playoff success before that.

They did go to the Super Bowl a ways back. They got dismantled by San Francisco. Like I said a ways back.

Ravage!!!
10-07-2011, 01:15 PM
Agreed, and maybe that's proof of just how overrated a coach could possibly be, like Shanahan.

Without a franchise QB, even the best coaches cannot win the big games.

Like SHanahan?

How many SBs did Walsh win without Montana? How many has Belicheck won without Brady....and for THAT matter, how well have they done in the Playoffs lately? What about Cowher? Landry without Staubach? How many Super Bowls did Noll win without Bradshaw?

How many Super Bowls did we win before Shanahan was the coach in Denver? Seems that if it was simply the QB, we should have won more.

I know Shanahan's record after Elway was better than anyone elses prior to, or post, Franchise QB. That says a TON about Shanahan and his coaching.

As you said, even the BEST coaches need a good QB... as do the good QBs need a coach...... which is why I think Dungy is the most over-rated coach I've seen.

Using the "lack" of playoff wins in a post HoF QB era is lame considering we did BETTER than ANY OTHER franchise has done. I think that your post proves exactly the point that the OP is making.... imo.

Dreadnought
10-07-2011, 01:20 PM
Doug Williams. Trent Dilfer. Brad Johnson. Jim Plunkett. Marc Wilson. Mark Rypien. Jeff Hostetler.

Some of these guys are better than others, but none were "franchise" QB's, and none are going to Canton. All of them won Superbowls

Cugel
10-07-2011, 01:28 PM
NE, Indy, and Pitt win their regular season games first.. the rest follow. Its funny about the teams you just listed. They have HoF QBs (except SD). How were those teams doing BEFORE their HoF/FQB QB came behind center? I know this, they weren't doing as well as Denver did without ours.

This is the NFL's dirty little secret. Look who's won the SB over the last couple of decades: Troy Aikman (3) (Hall of Fame), Steve Young (Hall of Fame), Brett Favre (automatic HOF as soon as he's eligible), John Elway (Hall of Fame), Kurt Warner (future HOF for sure), Tom Brady (3) (automatic HOF), Peyton Manning (automatic HOF), Ben Roethlisberger (2), Eli Manning, Drew Brees, Aaron Rogers. The last 4 it's too soon to determine, but each has gone to multiple pro-bowls and are generally considered among the top NFL QBs. Eli Manning who some might question was the #1 overall pick of the draft and had a great season and SB.

Who did I leave out? Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer -- and they had the #3 and #1 all-time scoring defenses since the 1985 Bears.

That would suggest that you can't win the SB without an elite QB or one of the best NFL defenses ever. Not just best defense that year or even best of the last 5 years, but one of the top 3 of the last 25 years!

And those Ravens and Bucs teams never got back to the SB. It's just too hard to put together multiple championship teams runs without a great QB.

Is this a plea to replace Kyle Orton? Of course! It doesn't matter this year, because Tebow clearly isn't ready and the team isn't remotely ready either (see Exhibit A -- Packers game), but by next year the Broncos need to get a franchise QB -- probably through the draft.

Ravage!!!
10-07-2011, 01:29 PM
Doug Williams. Trent Dilfer. Brad Johnson. Jim Plunkett. Marc Wilson. Mark Rypien. Jeff Hostetler.

Some of these guys are better than others, but none were "franchise" QB's, and none are going to Canton. All of them won Superbowls

Right.... shows how hard it is to win without one.

Cugel
10-07-2011, 01:39 PM
They did go to the Super Bowl a ways back. They got dismantled by San Francisco. Like I said a ways back.

Illustrates my point. San Diego Chargers QB? Stan Humphries (I had to look that up). 49ers QB? Steve Young. Young was SB MVP.


Still, Young again led the league in passing during the 1994 regular season with a passer rating of 112.8, breaking Montana's record for the highest regular season rating in NFL history. Young recorded 324 out of 461 completions for 3,969 yards, 35 touchdowns, with just 10 interceptions. He also had 58 rushes for 293 yards and 7 touchdowns, and earned the NFL Most Valuable Player Award.

The 49ers scored on a 44 yard TD to Jerry Rice 3 plays into the game and had a 14-0 lead after 5 minutes of the 1st quarter. Essentially the game was over before most fans had had a chance to settle into their seats and drink their first beer.

If the Broncos had ever gotten to the SB under Brian Griese, Jake Plummer or now Kyle Orton they would run into an Aaron Rogers, Brees, or Brady or Peyton Manning and get killed just like the Chargers did with Stan Humphries.

You just can't expect to win the SB without an elite QB (generally one of the top 5 QBs in the NFL).

Cugel
10-07-2011, 01:58 PM
Doug Williams. Trent Dilfer. Brad Johnson. Jim Plunkett. Marc Wilson. Mark Rypien. Jeff Hostetler.

Some of these guys are better than others, but none were "franchise" QB's, and none are going to Canton. All of them won Superbowls

Why don't you mention the '64 Cleveland Browns with QB Jim Ryan beating Johnny Unitas and the Colts 27-0. That has about as much relevance to today's NFL as Jim Plunkett or Mark Wilson. :coffee:

I've already noted that Trent Dilfer's Ravens set the modern NFL record for best scoring defense, eclipsing the mark set by the '85-'86 Bears. Nobody could score on them. Ray Lewis scored a TD on an INT and totally disrupted the Giants offense.

As for the Bucs, the had the #3 scoring defense behind the '85-'86 Bears and 2000 Ravens. They had Warren Sapp, Dexter Jackson, Simeon Rice, and John Lynch among others on that defense. They were totally dominating.

Yet neither of those teams ever repeated!

As for Doug Williams, Jim Plunkett. Marc Wilson. Mark Rypien. Jeff Hostetler that was all back in the '80s during a different football era. The 1983 Redskins won by grinding out the run with the "Hogs" OL and the 1984 Raiders beat them by Marcus Allen rushing the ball.

You just can't expect to do that in today's NFL. They changed all the rules to favor passing over the defense. You can't hit the QB in the head, can't hit him at all with your helmet, can't take more than 2 steps and TOUCH the QB, DBs can't touch the WR more than 5 yards downfield.

If you even give the QB a dirty look these days it's an automatic 15 yards! Of course you can't win without a great passer in today's NFL! ("Personal foul #46, unnecessary meanness. Gave the QB a menacing look.") :laugh:

They deliberately changed everything to favor the offense and the passing game more and more. Thus, you can't win the SB without an elite passing QB (or unless you have an all-time great defense).

Period! :coffee:

Cugel
10-07-2011, 02:10 PM
P.S. the 2006 Bears had a pretty good defense starring Tommie Harris and Ogunleye on the DL with Urlacher and Lance Briggs at LB.

But, they also had Rex Grossman at QB and the Colts had Peyton Manning. :coffee: