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Northman
10-03-2011, 10:59 PM
I was wrong. Tebow will not be here next year. This statement by Fox is not only moronic but a clear indication to me that none of these QB's will be here next year. If Fox believes that Orton needs more time in this system (even though he gives us the best chance to win now) yet his contract runs out at the end of the year i just dont see any of them being here. I am now on board, we are drafting a QB next year.....


We need our STARTING quarterback to get experience, for us to improve," Fox explained. "That's the idea behind that. He needs to get better in our system. I know he gets judged on the past couple of years. But we are trying to get him better in our system and use that experience to get better."

Tned
10-03-2011, 11:02 PM
I don't think the Broncos have given up on winning the division this year. I know to most that sounds crazy, but I believe that's what's going on.

BroncoStud
10-03-2011, 11:04 PM
Of course Tebow is a goner, but sadly we aren't going to get Luck either, we won't suck THAT bad. We'll end up with a project QB who is a little more typical than Tebow, with significantly less talent.

Northman
10-03-2011, 11:06 PM
I don't think the Broncos have given up on winning the division this year. I know to most that sounds crazy, but I believe that's what's going on.


Dude, we are 1-3. We are NOT built to win many games this year. We can compete to a certain extent but that is where it ends. Im not sure why anyone including the brass thinks we can win many games this year. At best we are the third best team in the division and thats not even a shoe-in vs KC. I know your just going with a gut feeling but for the life of me i dont know how people can see that when everything i see paints a whole different picture. So far this season it has played out EXACTLY the way i thought it would. Nothing has altered that course for me in terms of their success this year.

MOtorboat
10-03-2011, 11:07 PM
I don't think the Broncos have given up on winning the division this year. I know to most that sounds crazy, but I believe that's what's going on.

Your message of mixed signals rings true.

From personnel decisions, to public statements to even playcalling, schizophrenia reigns in Denver right now.

I don't think that means much at all North. I still don't think this condemns Tebow (or Orton). I think its a fairly simple statement. Fox isn't going to judge things from last year or the year before, he's going to trust what he sees, and yes, that means in practice, too.

BroncoStud
10-03-2011, 11:09 PM
I just want to know at what point the organization is supposed to give up on their playoff aspirations... :laugh:

We will be 1-4 during the bye week but not eliminated from the playoffs. At least our "starting QB is getting experience in the system"... :laugh:

turftoad
10-03-2011, 11:11 PM
Your message of mixed signals rings true.

From personnel decisions, to public statements to even playcalling, schizophrenia reigns in Denver right now.

I don't think that means much at all North. I still don't think this condemns Tebow (or Orton). I think its a fairly simple statement. Fox isn't going to judge things from last year or the year before, he's going to trust what he sees, and yes, that means in practice, too.

Agreed Mo. They do get to see TT in practice every day.

Northman
10-03-2011, 11:12 PM
Whats this practice you speak of?

Tned
10-03-2011, 11:14 PM
Dude, we are 1-3. We are NOT built to win many games this year. We can compete to a certain extent but that is where it ends. Im not sure why anyone including the brass thinks we can win many games this year. At best we are the third best team in the division and thats not even a shoe-in vs KC. I know your just going with a gut feeling but for the life of me i dont know how people can see that when everything i see paints a whole different picture. So far this season it has played out EXACTLY the way i thought it would. Nothing has altered that course for me in terms of their success this year.

I think the Broncos look at two losses by three points, and then getting exposed by the world champs. I believe they think they could easily be sitting at 3-1, and that's with a rash of injuries.

That's why I'm convinced if they beat the Chargers, they will see the team as right in the mix for the AFC West title. If they lose, I think it's 50/50 that they throw in the towel and start building towards next year.

I could be wrong, but I really don't think I am.

turftoad
10-03-2011, 11:14 PM
Whats this practice you speak of?

Not sure really. :confused: I think it's a place where players prove themselves for playing time.

Tned
10-03-2011, 11:15 PM
Agreed Mo. They do get to see TT in practice every day.

Yea, kind of like Hillis, Kurt Warner, Ed Mcaffrey, Steve Young and so many others. Guys that a team didn't think practiced well -- at least not at first.

MOtorboat
10-03-2011, 11:16 PM
Agreed Mo. They do get to see TT in practice every day.

For two years (if not more) fans have been asking for a more logical, less whimsical approach to decision making at Dove Valley. Well, we finally got it. And I know Orton has played the last two and 1/4 seasons here, but Fox is judging that 1/4 of a season not the previous two. He's also watching Tebow, Quinn and Weber in practice (along with Orton).

Be patient. This season isn't going to amount to much. The knee jerk calling for Tebow is just that, knee jerk. He'll get in when Fox thinks Tebow is ready, not when Orton isn't.

Northman
10-03-2011, 11:17 PM
I don't think that means much at all North. I still don't think this condemns Tebow (or Orton). I think its a fairly simple statement. Fox isn't going to judge things from last year or the year before, he's going to trust what he sees, and yes, that means in practice, too.

See, i disagree and here's why. They tried to trade Orton, it fails. They know Orton wont be here at the end of the year (unless they do something drastic and extend his contract which wont make them endearing to the fans). Currently if there is ANY QB on the roster that needs experience in the system it is clearly Tebow but they dont want to put him in to learn. If Orton is learning on the fly this year than NO QB is the best chance to win this year and his comments regarding such ring hollow.

Frankly, i am just sick and tired of being lied too and tired of the stupid silly comments. Be a ******* man and just be honest thats all i ask and im sure WE as fans ask.

chazoe60
10-03-2011, 11:19 PM
For two years (if not more) fans have been asking for a more logical, less whimsical approach to decision making at Dove Valley. Well, we finally got it. And I know Orton has played the last two and 1/4 seasons here, but Fox is judging that 1/4 of a season not the previous two. He's also watching Tebow, Quinn and Weber in practice (along with Orton).

Be patient. This season isn't going to amount to much. The knee jerk calling for Tebow is just that, knee jerk. He'll get in when Fox thinks Tebow is ready, not when Orton isn't.

It's just that watching Orton is so mother ******* painful, hopeless, and mindnumbingly boring.

BroncoStud
10-03-2011, 11:21 PM
Andrew Luck - Franchise QB, can't miss prospect
Matt Barkley - Not as good as Luck, could be a good player
Landry Jones - Not as good as Luck, but bigger arm than Barkley, less mobile
Nick Foles - Big QB, lacks some mobility, checks down A LOT
Kirk Cousins - Orton with a big arm and more mobility
Ryan Lindley - Lacks NFL accuracy, project, we already have one of those
Robert Griffin III - This guy looks incredible at times, he's growing on me
Ryan Tannehill - A project like Tebow, but with less talent
Brandon Weeden - If he wasn't 28 he would be a top 3 QB
Kellen Moore - Small and lacks elite arm
Case Keenum - System QB but has a good arm and is mobile

MOtorboat
10-03-2011, 11:22 PM
See, i disagree and here's why. They tried to trade Orton, it fails. They know Orton wont be here at the end of the year (unless they do something drastic and extend his contract which wont make them endearing to the fans). Currently if there is ANY QB on the roster that needs experience in the system it is clearly Tebow but they dont want to put him in to learn. If Orton is learning on the fly this year than NO QB is the best chance to win this year and his comments regarding such ring hollow.

Frankly, i am just sick and tired of being lied too and tired of the stupid silly comments. Be a ******* man and just be honest thats all i ask and im sure WE as fans ask.

They are being honest by their actions. Tebow isn't the guy and he's not ready. It might be frustrating, but you have to deal with it.

I will agree that pussyfooting around the fact they don't think Tebow is ready by putting in "Tebow packages" or naming co-backups (when we all know Quinn is the backup of choice) is being dishonest. But it's not different than any other regime in the league.

sneakers
10-03-2011, 11:22 PM
Jake Delhomme.

Tned
10-03-2011, 11:22 PM
See, i disagree and here's why. They tried to trade Orton, it fails. They know Orton wont be here at the end of the year (unless they do something drastic and extend his contract which wont make them endearing to the fans). Currently if there is ANY QB on the roster that needs experience in the system it is clearly Tebow but they dont want to put him in to learn. If Orton is learning on the fly this year than NO QB is the best chance to win this year and his comments regarding such ring hollow.

Frankly, i am just sick and tired of being lied too and tired of the stupid silly comments. Be a ******* man and just be honest thats all i ask and im sure WE as fans ask.

Hence the reason for my most recent Tned's Take rant. They are sending mixed signals from Dove Valley. They are saying that it's all about winning this year, but when they don't, they cry "rebuilding" without using the word. Can't have it both ways.

BroncoStud
10-03-2011, 11:26 PM
They are being honest by their actions. Tebow isn't the guy and he's not ready. It might be frustrating, but you have to deal with it.

I will agree that pussyfooting around the fact they don't think Tebow is ready by putting in "Tebow packages" or naming co-backups (when we all know Quinn is the backup of choice) is being dishonest. But it's not different than any other regime in the league.

That's as much speculation as the Teboners throw out there when they scream conspiracy... We don't know what they're thinking, they send us different signals every day. We don't know that they know to think at this point... Elway is letting John Fox absorb the heat but it will eventually get warm for him as well.

Practice or not, starting Orton does nothing for the longterm status of this team. He won't be here next year, Tebow will be the only QB under contract. Let him sink or swim in a lost season. This would be a much more complex decision if Orton were playing well, but he's not.

Buff
10-03-2011, 11:33 PM
If you listen to the press conference Woody Paige presses Fox pretty hard on the Tebow issue and Fox is damn near defiant in saying that people are going to have to get over Tebow for now, that Orton has only been in this system for 4 games, yada yada yada. Definitely didn't sound like much hope of a QB change during the bye week.

The thing that really annoyed me - to Tned's point - is how Fox talked about last year's losing record, not signing any big name free agents in the offseason, Tebow being a running QB, etc. Then he wants to talk about all of the positive things the team is doing in the passing game, in the red zone, on 3rd down, with penalties, draft picks performing well. It sounded like a political campaign speech. I thought we were 4-0 for a minute.

BroncoStud
10-03-2011, 11:33 PM
Denver Broncos from 2000-2008: 59% winning percentage

Denver Broncos with Kyle Orton starting at QB: 37.5% winning percentage

turftoad
10-03-2011, 11:34 PM
Yea, kind of like Hillis, Kurt Warner, Ed Mcaffrey, Steve Young and so many others. Guys that a team didn't think practiced well -- at least not at first.

Ahh yes, I agee. However, those guys are the exception of the rule.

I don't disagree. Tebow should get a shot, mostly because of how Orton is playing.

No one knows what goes on behing closed doors.

Tned
10-03-2011, 11:34 PM
They are being honest by their actions. Tebow isn't the guy and he's not ready. It might be frustrating, but you have to deal with it.

I will agree that pussyfooting around the fact they don't think Tebow is ready by putting in "Tebow packages" or naming co-backups (when we all know Quinn is the backup of choice) is being dishonest. But it's not different than any other regime in the league.

That's just pure speculation on your part. You might be right, or John Elway might be right about still being excited about Tebow, but believing you can ruin a young QB by throwing him to the wolves. We simply don't know what the 'truth' is.

MOtorboat
10-03-2011, 11:34 PM
That's as much speculation as the Teboners throw out there when they scream conspiracy... We don't know what they're thinking, they send us different signals every day. We don't know that they know to think at this point... Elway is letting John Fox absorb the heat but it will eventually get warm for him as well.

Practice or not, starting Orton does nothing for the longterm status of this team. He won't be here next year, Tebow will be the only QB under contract. Let him sink or swim in a lost season. This would be a much more complex decision if Orton were playing well, but he's not.

We have a pretty good idea, after things that have been said and actions taken that that is correct. Continue to deny it all you want, but it's becoming painfully clear.

MOtorboat
10-03-2011, 11:37 PM
That's just pure speculation on your part. You might be right, or John Elway might be right about still being excited about Tebow, but believing you can ruin a young QB by throwing him to the wolves. We simply don't know what the 'truth' is.

Yup. It is. That's what happens on message boards, or so I'm told.

turftoad
10-03-2011, 11:37 PM
If you listen to the press conference Woody Paige presses Fox pretty hard on the Tebow issue and Fox is damn near defiant in saying that people are going to have to get over Tebow for now, that Orton has only been in this system for 4 games, yada yada yada. Definitely didn't sound like much hope of a QB change during the bye week.

The thing that really annoyed me - to Tned's point - is how Fox talked about last year's losing record, not signing any big name free agents in the offseason, Tebow being a running QB, etc. Then he wants to talk about all of the positive things the team is doing in the passing game, in the red zone, on 3rd down, with penalties, draft picks performing well. It sounded like a political campaign speech. I thought we were 4-0 for a minute.

Ya know? What i wanna know is how is this Ortons first 4 games in the system?? McCoy is the OC right? I'm sure things changed a little bit, but not that much.

BroncoStud
10-03-2011, 11:39 PM
We have a pretty good idea, after things that have been said and actions taken that that is correct. Continue to deny it all you want, but it's becoming painfully clear.

I'm not in denial. You may very well be correct. But that doesn't mean that all of us have faith in Fox or Elway for that matter to do the right thing, make the right decisions. Fox isn't exactly Vince Lombardi and his recent history has been putrid.

Tned
10-03-2011, 11:40 PM
If you listen to the press conference Woody Paige presses Fox pretty hard on the Tebow issue and Fox is damn near defiant in saying that people are going to have to get over Tebow for now, that Orton has only been in this system for 4 games, yada yada yada. Definitely didn't sound like much hope of a QB change during the bye week.

The thing that really annoyed me - to Tned's point - is how Fox talked about last year's losing record, not signing any big name free agents in the offseason, Tebow being a running QB, etc. Then he wants to talk about all of the positive things the team is doing in the passing game, in the red zone, on 3rd down, with penalties, draft picks performing well. It sounded like a political campaign speech. I thought we were 4-0 for a minute.

I agree with everything you wrote, especially Fox being dug in on Orton. The one not I will throw out though is Elway. While he wouldn't be pinned down on what record, or what point in the season it will be time to give up on this year, but he made it clear that was something that he thinks about regularly. He indicated that the time would come when it will be time to focus on developing players for the future. That's a massive paraphrase, but essentially what he said this morning. As a result, if the Broncos go 1-4 or 1-5, at some point I think Elway will step in and force a chance.

Northman
10-03-2011, 11:40 PM
That's just pure speculation on your part. You might be right, or John Elway might be right about still being excited about Tebow, but believing you can ruin a young QB by throwing him to the wolves. We simply don't know what the 'truth' is.

Well, we do know that after i went and looked up the data that many of the great QB's didnt fail from starting too soon so for me i pretty much poke a major whole in Johnny Boy's theory. But be that as it may right now i can honestly say i have no faith in anyone at Dove Valley right now. They seem lost and unable to be straight forward with the fans regarding anything on the QB issue right now.

Tned
10-03-2011, 11:41 PM
Yup. It is. That's what happens on message boards, or so I'm told.

Yep, and you might not have heard, no "one" opinion is the corrected one. ;)

BroncoStud
10-03-2011, 11:44 PM
It will actually bother me if Elway tarnishes his reputation in Denver over taking the job. No one ever said being an NFL executive was easy, and a lot of smart men fail at it. It was an uphill battle for Elway from the start taking over such a mess. I think he made a big mistake keeping Xanders and hiring John Fox, I don't think either of those guys are the right ones to guide Elway in his learning process.

For once we decide to go on the CHEAP and it was perhaps at a time when we needed to invest in the future the most.

chazoe60
10-03-2011, 11:45 PM
All of this is exactly why I want the feds to find a meth lab in Orton's basement. I just want him gone and am very afraid that he's Fox's ideal QB. Fox loves boring offense, and if there's one dude that can deliver boring offense, it's Kyle "boring" Orton.

Northman
10-03-2011, 11:49 PM
It will actually bother me if Elway tarnishes his reputation in Denver over taking the job.

I dont know how i will feel about it if he fails. Obviously having him back in the Bronco fold was exciting but i dont think my expectations were really that high to begin with. I want him to succeed but unfortuantely right now im just seeing a lot of the same ol' same ol' that ive seen the last 8 years which is not good. I see the same mistakes in terms of addressing certain positions, same mistakes with dealing with QB position, and same mistakes when addressing the fanbase.

BroncoStud
10-03-2011, 11:52 PM
All of this is exactly why I want the feds to find a meth lab in Orton's basement. I just want him gone and am very afraid that he's Fox's ideal QB. Fox loves boring offense, and if there's one dude that can deliver boring offense, it's Kyle "boring" Orton.

I just think that our entire organization is a trainwreck. Elway was supposed to stabillize the situation but he hasn't, he just hasn't. You're either rebuilding or you're not... If you ARE rebuilding why in the HELL do you want a QB who isn't going to be here next year taking snaps over a guy under contract?

I don't care who practices better... What good does that do your franchise? After the last 2 seasons the Broncos owe it to the fans to stop feeding us bullshit. Stop insulting our intelligence. They tell us a guy who has won 6 of his last 20 games gives us the best chance to win...

What a joke. We're a laughing stock and a trainwreck and so far the new front office is not impressing.

MOtorboat
10-03-2011, 11:52 PM
All of this is exactly why I want the feds to find a meth lab in Orton's basement. I just want him gone and am very afraid that he's Fox's ideal QB. Fox loves boring offense, and if there's one dude that can deliver boring offense, it's Kyle "boring" Orton.

AND we're back to productive conversation...

Nothing supports any of this.

chazoe60
10-04-2011, 12:20 AM
Elway and Fox are tying their success in their current positions to Kyle Orton every time they declare him "our best chance to win". They tighten the knot every week he starts. By making that assertion, and especially by keeping Orton in during a blowout under the guise of getting the 7 year vet more experience, they are declaring this team as a playoff ready team and every time we slip further out of contention they should be held to the standard of a playoff ready team that is failing.

Their stubbornness will gain them nothing but disgruntled fans and empty seats in the end. But, they are chkksing their own fates by deciding to tie their legacies (Elway's FO legacy, his legacy as a player is written in stone) to Kyle Orton.

Elway has started to loosen that knot with his latest comments about "taking it week to week" while Fox seems to be thetyoe who is going to dig his feet in and fight it to the bitter end. I think Elway, a guy who understands good QB play, sees how terrible Orton really is and knows he needs to distance himself from him. Fox, a gut with a history of not knowing shit about QBs, appears too stubborn for his own good. He is almost stivking with Orton out of spite it seems.

The good news is I think Elway knows he can't tie his legacy to a loser like Orton and thank goodness because Fox comes accross as oblivious to Orton's shortcommings and would gladly march right into the abyss arm-in-arm with the dolt. Good thing for us fans that Elway is the final say.

Now, as far as this season goes, we're screwed. I don't think either John has a single ounce of belief in Tebow. They don't want him to see a single minute of QB play because of the monkey wrench that even serviceable play from him woyld throw into their respective plans.

Elway doesn't want Tebow in because if he looks anywhere close to decent fans will call for him to be developed and that will screw up Elway's plans to draft his own guy (not necissarily Luck but any guy John can call "his guy"). Elway doesn't believe in Tebow but he knows he can't just give up on him if he looks decent in real game action.

Fox doesn't want some young guy running all over the field breaking up the safe predictability of his run, run, pass punt philosophy. Fox thinks if he can hold things together long enough to show that the safe Orton can win games by not turning the ball over (that's backfiring BTW) then he can convince Elway to roll with Orton.

The solution for both the Johns' problem is to keep Tebow off the field. Then at the end of the year they can say "Jeez, he cohldn't beat out Orton. It just didn't work. We're going to go a different direction". Fox hopes that direction is the safe and predictavle Orton. Elway will make sure it is a young guy from this year's class of stud QBs.

Thank God Elway will win this one, Fox winning would be a disaster. In the end it's going to suck not to find out about Tebow until he's on another team, but at least come February we'll be out from under the stench that is Orton.

BroncoStud
10-04-2011, 12:24 AM
It's being handled about as poorly as it possibly could be... Kudos to the front office and John Fox for that... Way to go fellas. :salute:

chazoe60
10-04-2011, 12:25 AM
Sorry for the typos in my long-winded post. Fat thumbs and Iphone don't mix

Bullgator
10-04-2011, 12:26 AM
One way or another I got a feeling that Bronco nation will see Tebow play... Fox has shown that the pressure by the fans are getting to him(its only pissing him off for the time being) but as the losses and pressure mounts he will have to prove that Tebow sucks... either that or KO will get injured per our usual agreement.

keep heart north, one way or the other we will all see whether TT sucks or is great, sooner or later. its early yet.

one things clear to me, any winning being done will be done despite fox.

Bullgator
10-04-2011, 12:33 AM
As far as Elways legacy... IMO no matter how bad he ****s up it wont be tarnished. MJ didnt tarnish his legacy when he sucked as a GM, granted it wasnt for the bulls and he won 6 WCs not 2 lol but still I think Elway is untouchable... if he doesnt grow a pair and tell fox what time it is ill be disappointed but hes.... Elway man.

If you recall he was pro Tebow before this ******** fox came around, in fact one of the conditions of a new coach was that he had to be ok with tebow as QB or"hes not our type of guy" remember that quote by elway?

sooner or later bowlen or elway are going to have to slap fox upside the head and make that record stop skipping in his head. or maybe the fans will this week when SD comes to town.

Mike
10-04-2011, 07:31 AM
If you listen to the press conference Woody Paige presses Fox pretty hard on the Tebow issue and Fox is damn near defiant in saying that people are going to have to get over Tebow for now, that Orton has only been in this system for 4 games, yada yada yada. Definitely didn't sound like much hope of a QB change during the bye week.

The thing that really annoyed me - to Tned's point - is how Fox talked about last year's losing record, not signing any big name free agents in the offseason, Tebow being a running QB, etc. Then he wants to talk about all of the positive things the team is doing in the passing game, in the red zone, on 3rd down, with penalties, draft picks performing well. It sounded like a political campaign speech. I thought we were 4-0 for a minute.

I am not buying that steaming pile for one damn second. Fox is so FOS it isn't even funny. And comments like that make me think he really does like bum and may try to resign him. :banghead:

Fox is pissing me off more and more every time he opens his mouth and tries to spin the situation.


We have a pretty good idea, after things that have been said and actions taken that that is correct. Continue to deny it all you want, but it's becoming painfully clear.

And we also know that coaches sometimes just don't like certain players and won't give them a fair shake.

claymore
10-04-2011, 07:34 AM
- Id say Elway was pro Tebow before he spent time with him.

- We didnt spend in free agencey because we are a loooong way off of needing FA bandaides.

-The organization hasnt lied about Tebow or anything else. They have been overly honest, some just try to read into legitimate answers, or they dont like the answers they get.

-The best QB will start for this team.

Juriga72
10-04-2011, 07:35 AM
Fox will never change. His love of vets makes him THE "Players coach" of all time. He has already showed he'd rather go down in flames than bench a vet.

Hello 2-14!!!

Mike
10-04-2011, 07:37 AM
Fox will never change. His love of vets makes him THE "Players coach" of all time. He has already showed he'd rather go down in flames than bench a vet.

Hello 2-14!!!

That's an improvement for Fox. Just sayin. :coffee:

Tned
10-04-2011, 07:44 AM
Fox will never change. His love of vets makes him THE "Players coach" of all time. He has already showed he'd rather go down in flames than bench a vet.

Hello 2-14!!!

Don't tell that to Orlando Franklin, Raheem Moore or Von Miller. You know, the guys that make up the biggest starting rookie class by the Broncos in 40 years or something like that. Also, but for injury, Julius Thomas was going to have a large role in the offense.

claymore
10-04-2011, 07:47 AM
Fox will never change. His love of vets makes him THE "Players coach" of all time. He has already showed he'd rather go down in flames than bench a vet.

Hello 2-14!!!
He also has a history of benching QB's for better QB's. Unfortunatley he doesnt have the option this year.

BroncoNut
10-04-2011, 07:53 AM
I was wrong. Tebow will not be here next year. This statement by Fox is not only moronic but a clear indication to me that none of these QB's will be here next year. If Fox believes that Orton needs more time in this system (even though he gives us the best chance to win now) yet his contract runs out at the end of the year i just dont see any of them being here. I am now on board, we are drafting a QB next year.....

I'm no longer excited about Tebow as a Bronco, ... I'm on board with this North.

claymore
10-04-2011, 07:55 AM
I'm no longer excited about Tebow as a Bronco, ... I'm on board with this North.

Welcome to reality Nut. Take a breath of this fresh air, and clean the shit of your boots on the way in. :D

BroncoNut
10-04-2011, 08:06 AM
Welcome to reality Nut. Take a breath of this fresh air, and clean the shit of your boots on the way in. :D

I wasn't that far gone nor vocal about it so get off your high horse. I believe in considering all possibilities and am now aligned with your opinion, that's all. Don't take this to be authorization for you to go around with this "I told you so" attitude.

Edmonton Bronco Fan
10-04-2011, 08:14 AM
Frankly, i am just sick and tired of being lied too and tired of the stupid silly comments. Be a ******* man and just be honest thats all i ask and im sure WE as fans ask.

This. Nothing else more needs to be said. I'm sick and tired of it.

claymore
10-04-2011, 08:29 AM
I wasn't that far gone nor vocal about it so get off your high horse. I believe in considering all possibilities and am now aligned with your opinion, that's all. Don't take this to be authorization for you to go around with this "I told you so" attitude.

Settle down Sling Blade.

claymore
10-04-2011, 08:30 AM
Originally Posted by Northman

Frankly, i am just sick and tired of being lied too and tired of the stupid silly comments. Be a ******* man and just be honest thats all i ask and im sure WE as fans ask.




This. Nothing else more needs to be said. I'm sick and tired of it.

What lies? What comments? The dude gets asked over, and over, and over about his 3rd string QB. What kind of comments are you guys expecting?

Bullgator
10-04-2011, 08:31 AM
He also has a history of benching QB's for better QB's. Unfortunatley he doesnt have the option this year.

not sure if serious.

claymore
10-04-2011, 08:43 AM
not sure if serious.

Serious. He benched his starter Brooks? For a NFL Europe guy (Delhomme). Who went on to a 5-3 (something like that) playoff record and a SB apperance.

So Fox has a history of Benching incumbent starters (QB's)for inexperienced guys who he has nothing invested in.

BroncoNut
10-04-2011, 08:49 AM
Settle down Sling Blade.

oh OK. Forrest :rolleyes:

SOCALORADO.
10-04-2011, 09:30 AM
I see some have finally come out of the Tebow haze and are returning to reality.
I'll give you my take one last, final time.
Since John Elway took over as VP, this team has signed a 30 year old FA, RB.
No other FA signings. No big time DTs that could help, and no band-aid players either.
Thats weird. Team nneds help, bad but no solid aquisitions. Huh.
The team then basically RE-DRAFTED for all the McDoosh mistake drafts.
Hmm.
During this time they also suddenly pull back on the outlandish, over-the-top attempt at trading Kyle Orton for what was reported to be a 2nd. Seems like the FO was trying to rape a team, and it wasnt working, but you would also think they would play ball, considering Ortons contract and him being a FA at years end, yet they keep him.
Suddenly TT is kicked to the curb right at the beggining of camp.
Huh.
What you just read is called climbing out from under the rock at "Rockbottom".
Denver is rebuilding. Get that through your thick skulls. Realize it. Accept it.
And then you wont scrutinize the BS that Fox or Elway say in public. It doesnt matter.

I have no doubt that John Elway showed up to camp and quickly realized with John Fox that TT was no where near ready to even remotely be the starting QB.
Now for many of the floridians, this is blasphemy!
But so far, from whats happened, this is exactly how the FO felt about TT.
Thats why the "co-no 2" QB title was created, and thats why TT got no time in the preseason with the 1sts.

When a person takes on the position of VP of any organization they are assuming responsibility for, they commonly will begin their career with an overview of the company, and then their vision of how the company can or will be improved. Usually in front of the stock holders, CEO and President or owner of the company (team).
I have no doubt that John Elway absolutely ripped Bowlen and the FO a new one when he explained their recent mistakes in allowing McDoosh to basically destoy this team. Selling off a pro-bowl offense and franchise QB, and completely setting this franchise back years.
And then John gave his vision or future of the Denver Broncos.
If any of you think John Elway is gonna begin his career as an executive in the NFL with TT, your on crack cocaine. Literally. Do you really think he would put his reputation and his legacy as an NFL player on the line with TT? Really?!?! REALLY!?!?
Or do you think his plan is to simply begin rebuilding what he can this year through the draft, and allow Fox to decide as the year plays out, who to keep for next year, and start to game plan for the most important piece of a team in all of sports.
The centerpiece to a team.
The player that all success is based on.
The "franchise" player that will not only lead the team on the field, but be the spokesman for the team off the field.
The player that can do anything, ANYTHING asked of him both in practice, in a game, and in a press conference. RIGHT NOW. The moment he is drafted.
The "slam dunk" QB.
And i have no doubt, that Elway will stop at nothing to get his guy.
After all Elway was the 1st "franchise QB".
And so far, Elways doing exactly that. It might seem confusing to some of the fans. but thats the plan, so just sit back, be patient, and watch Elway work his magic.

Hes coming to Denver folks. Dont doubt Elway.
http://www.fanfestsports.com/store/images/andrew%20luck%202%20(Small).jpg

TXBRONC
10-04-2011, 09:43 AM
I don't think the Broncos have given up on winning the division this year. I know to most that sounds crazy, but I believe that's what's going on.

I don't disagree at all this what Fox is thinking and Elway supporting him in it because that's his head coach. But I wouldn't be surprised if Elway rethinks that view if the Broncos lose.

BroncoStud
10-04-2011, 09:44 AM
We won't be getting Andrew Luck guys...

Ravage!!!
10-04-2011, 09:46 AM
Of course Tebow is a goner, but sadly we aren't going to get Luck either, we won't suck THAT bad. We'll end up with a project QB who is a little more typical than Tebow, with significantly less talent.

Less talent??????

Northman
10-04-2011, 09:55 AM
I see some have finally come out of the Tebow haze and are returning to reality.
I'll give you my take one last, final time.
Since John Elway took over as VP, this team has signed a 30 year old FA, RB.
No other FA signings. No big time DTs that could help, and no band-aid players either.
Thats weird. Team nneds help, bad but no solid aquisitions. Huh.
The team then basically RE-DRAFTED for all the McDoosh mistake drafts.
Hmm.
During this time they also suddenly pull back on the outlandish, over-the-top attempt at trading Kyle Orton for what was reported to be a 2nd. Seems like the FO was trying to rape a team, and it wasnt working, but you would also think they would play ball, considering Ortons contract and him being a FA at years end, yet they keep him.
Suddenly TT is kicked to the curb right at the beggining of camp.
Huh.
What you just read is called climbing out from under the rock at "Rockbottom".
Denver is rebuilding. Get that through your thick skulls. Realize it. Accept it.
And then you wont scrutinize the BS that Fox or Elway say in public. It doesnt matter.

I have no doubt that John Elway showed up to camp and quickly realized with John Fox that TT was no where near ready to even remotely be the starting QB.
Now for many of the floridians, this is blasphemy!
But so far, from whats happened, this is exactly how the FO felt about TT.
Thats why the "co-no 2" QB title was created, and thats why TT got no time in the preseason with the 1sts.

When a person takes on the position of VP of any organization they are assuming responsibility for, they commonly will begin their career with an overview of the company, and then their vision of how the company can or will be improved. Usually in front of the stock holders, CEO and President or owner of the company (team).
I have no doubt that John Elway absolutely ripped Bowlen and the FO a new one when he explained their recent mistakes in allowing McDoosh to basically destoy this team. Selling off a pro-bowl offense and franchise QB, and completely setting this franchise back years.
And then John gave his vision or future of the Denver Broncos.
If any of you think John Elway is gonna begin his career as an executive in the NFL with TT, your on crack cocaine. Literally. Do you really think he would put his reputation and his legacy as an NFL player on the line with TT? Really?!?! REALLY!?!?
Or do you think his plan is to simply begin rebuilding what he can this year through the draft, and allow Fox to decide as the year plays out, who to keep for next year, and start to game plan for the most important piece of a team in all of sports.
The centerpiece to a team.
The player that all success is based on.
The "franchise" player that will not only lead the team on the field, but be the spokesman for the team off the field.
The player that can do anything, ANYTHING asked of him both in practice, in a game, and in a press conference. RIGHT NOW. The moment he is drafted.
The "slam dunk" QB.
And i have no doubt, that Elway will stop at nothing to get his guy.
After all Elway was the 1st "franchise QB".
And so far, Elways doing exactly that. It might seem confusing to some of the fans. but thats the plan, so just sit back, be patient, and watch Elway work his magic.

Hes coming to Denver folks. Dont doubt Elway.
http://www.fanfestsports.com/store/images/andrew%20luck%202%20(Small).jpg

Well, lets not get carried away.

My thread here is not an endorsement that i think Tebow sucks. It does not mean that Tebow will or will not fail.

Its just an acknowledgement that the brass clearly seems lost in how they want to handle the QB situation and they clearly (as Tned put it in his own thread) flip flop on a daily basis as too what they are trying to do as an organization. One minute we are a team with a chance at the playoffs the next we are rebuilding.

Going by Fox and Elway's statements it would seem they are just going to clean house without even giving Tebow an opportunity to get on the field. If Orton is just "learning" the system and yet he gives us the best chance to win than they wont be pulling him this year for any reason. It makes no sense with a guy who wont be here next year to learn a system he nots going to have to worry about the next year.

Again, if Orton doesnt know the system and isnt a winner what is there that Tebow can possibly learn from him? Nothing. So the writing seems pretty clear to me on the wall that they are just scrapping the whole thing which is ok for me. I said drafting a QB in the first would be fine as long as all the QB's were moved. But i just hope that if Tebow goes and becomes a winner elsewhere it doesnt come back and bite us in the ass YET AGAIN.

BroncoNut
10-04-2011, 09:59 AM
Less talent??????

Tebow's a great athlete with a helluva lotta talent. I still say we dump this clown and go after a qb in draft 2012

Ravage!!!
10-04-2011, 10:02 AM
I also think that Fox is probably answering questions after the game when in an emotional state of being pissed how the team played. He's talking about how bad we are... thats not a coach that is a good mood. So lets be reasonable when we listen to his comments.

I also don't think that the fans should continue to hang on every word the coaches/FO gives and take them as gold. They are going to reply and say things that they want to at the time...but they certainly do NOT feel that they have to keep with what they said one moment simply because its what they stated to the media/fans.

HOnestly, they don't "owe" us an explanation on every move and/or non-move, and I don't think we need to keep tabs on everything they say and expect to "hold" them to it.

SOCALORADO.
10-04-2011, 10:03 AM
Well, lets not get carried away.

My thread here is not an endorsement that i think Tebow sucks. It does not mean that Tebow will or will not fail.

Its just an acknowledgement that the brass clearly seems lost in how they want to handle the QB situation and they clearly (as Tned put it in his own thread) flip flop on a daily basis as too what they are trying to do as an organization. One minute we are a team with a chance at the playoffs the next we are rebuilding.

Going by Fox and Elway's statements it would seem they are just going to clean house without even giving Tebow an opportunity to get on the field. If Orton is just "learning" the system and yet he gives us the best chance to win than they wont be pulling him this year for any reason. It makes no sense with a guy who wont be here next year to learn a system he nots going to have to worry about the next year.

Again, if Orton doesnt know the system and isnt a winner what is there that Tebow can possibly learn from him? Nothing. So the writing seems pretty clear to me on the wall that they are just scrapping the whole thing which is ok for me. I said drafting a QB in the first would be fine as long as all the QB's were moved. But i just hope that if Tebow goes and becomes a winner elsewhere it doesnt come back and bite us in the ass YET AGAIN.

Agreed. But i am not worried. Wanna Know why?
ELWAY.
I know this guy. I know his career as a player, and his career as a buisness man.
He will get what he wants come hell or high water.
And if he has to carry the fricken team on his back to do so, and make every play or executive decision, he will. And he will win in the end. Stop reading into the season. DEN sucks period.
Be patient. Elway usually snatches victory from the jaws of defeat right at the very, very end.

Ravage!!!
10-04-2011, 10:04 AM
Tebow's a great athlete with a helluva lotta talent. I still say we dump this clown and go after a qb in draft 2012

I think he's a great athlete. But I'm not about to say that any QB we draft in the first round of this coming draft has "less" talent. Tebow hasn't even beat out Orton.

EastCoastBronco
10-04-2011, 10:04 AM
I see some have finally come out of the Tebow haze and are returning to reality.
I'll give you my take one last, final time.
Since John Elway took over as VP, this team has signed a 30 year old FA, RB.
No other FA signings. No big time DTs that could help, and no band-aid players either.
Thats weird. Team nneds help, bad but no solid aquisitions. Huh.
The team then basically RE-DRAFTED for all the McDoosh mistake drafts.
Hmm.
During this time they also suddenly pull back on the outlandish, over-the-top attempt at trading Kyle Orton for what was reported to be a 2nd. Seems like the FO was trying to rape a team, and it wasnt working, but you would also think they would play ball, considering Ortons contract and him being a FA at years end, yet they keep him.
Suddenly TT is kicked to the curb right at the beggining of camp.
Huh.
What you just read is called climbing out from under the rock at "Rockbottom".
Denver is rebuilding. Get that through your thick skulls. Realize it. Accept it.
And then you wont scrutinize the BS that Fox or Elway say in public. It doesnt matter.

I have no doubt that John Elway showed up to camp and quickly realized with John Fox that TT was no where near ready to even remotely be the starting QB.
Now for many of the floridians, this is blasphemy!
But so far, from whats happened, this is exactly how the FO felt about TT.
Thats why the "co-no 2" QB title was created, and thats why TT got no time in the preseason with the 1sts.

When a person takes on the position of VP of any organization they are assuming responsibility for, they commonly will begin their career with an overview of the company, and then their vision of how the company can or will be improved. Usually in front of the stock holders, CEO and President or owner of the company (team).
I have no doubt that John Elway absolutely ripped Bowlen and the FO a new one when he explained their recent mistakes in allowing McDoosh to basically destoy this team. Selling off a pro-bowl offense and franchise QB, and completely setting this franchise back years.
And then John gave his vision or future of the Denver Broncos.
If any of you think John Elway is gonna begin his career as an executive in the NFL with TT, your on crack cocaine. Literally. Do you really think he would put his reputation and his legacy as an NFL player on the line with TT? Really?!?! REALLY!?!?
Or do you think his plan is to simply begin rebuilding what he can this year through the draft, and allow Fox to decide as the year plays out, who to keep for next year, and start to game plan for the most important piece of a team in all of sports.
The centerpiece to a team.
The player that all success is based on.
The "franchise" player that will not only lead the team on the field, but be the spokesman for the team off the field.
The player that can do anything, ANYTHING asked of him both in practice, in a game, and in a press conference. RIGHT NOW. The moment he is drafted.
The "slam dunk" QB.
And i have no doubt, that Elway will stop at nothing to get his guy.
After all Elway was the 1st "franchise QB".
And so far, Elways doing exactly that. It might seem confusing to some of the fans. but thats the plan, so just sit back, be patient, and watch Elway work his magic.

Hes coming to Denver folks. Dont doubt Elway.
http://www.fanfestsports.com/store/images/andrew%20luck%202%20(Small).jpg

While you're busy stroking Elway and his slam dunk QB we've got a proven winner rotting on our bench behind a proven loser.
If this is all part of Elway's plan then I'm taking the rest of the season off...

SOCALORADO.
10-04-2011, 10:09 AM
While you're busy stroking Elway and his slam dunk QB we've got a proven winner rotting on our bench behind a proven loser.
If this is all part of Elway's plan then I'm taking the rest of the season off...

A proven winner, but he cant "win" the 2nd string QB spot.
Thats a problem.

I am done discussing the simple fact that TT cant "win" anything here in DEN,
according to the FO.

However, their is a coalition you can join.
The Federation Of Unionized Tebowites!
Last i heard they were busy tapping away on their billboard.

Northman
10-04-2011, 10:09 AM
Agreed. But i am not worried. Wanna Know why?
ELWAY.
I know this guy. I know his career as a player, and his career as a buisness man.
He will get what he wants come hell or high water.
And if he has to carry the fricken team on his back to do so, and make every play or executive decision, he will. And he will win in the end. Stop reading into the season. DEN sucks period.
Be patient. Elway usually snatches victory from the jaws of defeat right at the very, very end.

Elway was a great player, my favorite in fact so i feel you there. However, he isnt playing QB anymore and is in a whole different element. He also thinks that QB's need to sit for 2 years before starting which ive proved to be a incorrect based on the evidence contrary to that line of thinking. At this point i would be happy with Luck so as long as we arent giving up a lot to do so. The team still has way too many needs to go all Ricky Williams on a player. Its a deep draft at QB so we (he) needs to play it smart.

chazoe60
10-04-2011, 10:11 AM
So which QB, besides Luck, do you like in the draft North?

Ravage!!!
10-04-2011, 10:11 AM
Elway was a great player, my favorite in fact so i feel you there. However, he isnt playing QB anymore and is in a whole different element. He also thinks that QB's need to sit for 2 years before starting which ive proved to be a incorrect based on the evidence contrary to that line of thinking. At this point i would be happy with Luck so as long as we arent giving up a lot to do so. The team still has way too many needs to go all Ricky Williams on a player. Its a deep draft at QB so we (he) needs to play it smart.

We don't know that Elway thinks that all QBs have to sit for two years. He's made the statement, but then will turn around in another statement and say that playing on the field is the best learning tool. So I don't think thats fact. I think thats purely a statement based on Tebow sitting.

Other than that... I say we pull a Ricky Williams, and throw in Tebow.

SOCALORADO.
10-04-2011, 10:12 AM
Elway was a great player, my favorite in fact so i feel you there. However, he isnt playing QB anymore and is in a whole different element. He also thinks that QB's need to sit for 2 years before starting which ive proved to be a incorrect based on the evidence contrary to that line of thinking. At this point i would be happy with Luck so as long as we arent giving up a lot to do so. The team still has way too many needs to go all Ricky Williams on a player. Its a deep draft at QB so we (he) needs to play it smart.

I believe that Elway will break the bank to get Luck. and it might only be 3 spots he moves up to get him!
If its SEA or KC, they will both play ball. Elway will offer up a package to good to be true, and with Barkley(Carroll recruited him from HS and is literally in LOVE with him!) or Jones, they will play ball for the extra 1st round picks, IMHO of course.

Northman
10-04-2011, 10:15 AM
So which QB, besides Luck, do you like in the draft North?

Hard to say. Im not sold on Barkley at all and im still looking at the others as time goes on this year. Coach has mentioned Foles who im not too familiar with and i havent seen enough on Cousins yet to make a determination either. Jones has some great accuracy but you have to wonder how much of that is the system he plays in. Some talk of Lindley but not in a overly positive manner. I think once the college season is over and ive had a chance to see some of these guys more i can get a better idea of who i think will be a good investment if Luck isnt in the cards.

Northman
10-04-2011, 10:17 AM
We don't know that Elway thinks that all QBs have to sit for two years. He's made the statement, but then will turn around in another statement and say that playing on the field is the best learning tool. So I don't think thats fact. I think thats purely a statement based on Tebow sitting.

Other than that... I say we pull a Ricky Williams, and throw in Tebow.


I havent read anywhere where he made the other statement. If you have a link ill be sure to read it.

Northman
10-04-2011, 10:18 AM
I believe that Elway will break the bank to get Luck. and it might only be 3 spots he moves up to get him!
If its SEA or KC, they will both play ball. Elway will offer up a package to good to be true, and with Barkley(Carroll recruited him from HS and is literally in LOVE with him!) or Jones, they will play ball for the extra 1st round picks, IMHO of course.


That would be a poor move if we broke the bank for Luck unfortuantely. Sure, you get the best QB in the draft but then it leaves you with nothing in terms of fixing the rest of the team. You just cant do that when you have as many glaring needs as the Broncos do.

Mike
10-04-2011, 10:20 AM
That would be a poor move if we broke the bank for Luck unfortuantely. Sure, you get the best QB in the draft but then it leaves you with nothing in terms of fixing the rest of the team. You just cant do that when you have as many glaring needs as the Broncos do.

If they follow it up by opening up the checkbook via FA and bring in some legit talent, then I am all for it.

Northman
10-04-2011, 10:23 AM
If they follow it up by opening up the checkbook via FA and bring in some legit talent, then I am all for it.

Something that we've heard for quite a while now but yet to do. If i had any faith that Bowlen and company would do that i would say i agree. But nothing at this point shows they are willing to do that.

SOCALORADO.
10-04-2011, 10:23 AM
That would be a poor move if we broke the bank for Luck unfortuantely. Sure, you get the best QB in the draft but then it leaves you with nothing in terms of fixing the rest of the team. You just cant do that when you have as many glaring needs as the Broncos do.

Not if they open up the checkbook, LIKE THEY DIDNT THIS LAST FA, and spend some coin.

Northman
10-04-2011, 10:24 AM
LIKE THEY DIDNT THIS LAST FA,

Exactly. :lol:

SOCALORADO.
10-04-2011, 10:28 AM
Exactly. :lol:

Exactly!:lol:

Theres a reason. And a good one!
The team is in rebuild.
EFX knew they were not winning games this season anyways.
Too many holes. So let the rebuild begin.
Next years FA is loaded. So is the draft.
Thats where DEN makes its moves.

BroncoStud
10-04-2011, 10:34 AM
Hard to say. Im not sold on Barkley at all and im still looking at the others as time goes on this year. Coach has mentioned Foles who im not too familiar with and i havent seen enough on Cousins yet to make a determination either. Jones has some great accuracy but you have to wonder how much of that is the system he plays in. Some talk of Lindley but not in a overly positive manner. I think once the college season is over and ive had a chance to see some of these guys more i can get a better idea of who i think will be a good investment if Luck isnt in the cards.

Robert Griffin III.

BroncoStud
10-04-2011, 10:35 AM
That would be a poor move if we broke the bank for Luck unfortuantely. Sure, you get the best QB in the draft but then it leaves you with nothing in terms of fixing the rest of the team. You just cant do that when you have as many glaring needs as the Broncos do.

I hope to hell we break the bank for Luck. Have you actually seen this dude play? He's unbelievable. We have a franchise QB for 15 years. Worth every penny. We should have a ton of cap space next year to fill holes with. We get Orton, Quinn, possibly even Tebow off of the books.

MOtorboat
10-04-2011, 10:41 AM
Am I the only one who isn't completely blown away by Luck? He's good...but he doesn't seem like the next coming of (insert great quarterback here). He's seems like a decent prospect, the best one out there for sure, but that's it.

Don't get me wrong, I'd gladly take him over what we've got, I just haven't been completely blown away by him.

Northman
10-04-2011, 10:41 AM
I hope to hell we break the bank for Luck. Have you actually seen this dude play? He's unbelievable. We have a franchise QB for 15 years. Worth every penny. We should have a ton of cap space next year to fill holes with. We get Orton, Quinn, possibly even Tebow off of the books.


Frankly, Denver will be bad this year so they most likely will not have to break the bank for Luck anyway.

Northman
10-04-2011, 10:42 AM
Robert Griffin III.


Um, no. He may or may not be good at the pro level but if we are going to get a QB give me a pure pocket passer please.

SOCALORADO.
10-04-2011, 10:43 AM
I hope to hell we break the bank for Luck. Have you actually seen this dude play? He's unbelievable. We have a franchise QB for 15 years. Worth every penny. We should have a ton of cap space next year to fill holes with. We get Orton, Quinn, possibly even Tebow off of the books.


And keep in mind folks, that this is a 3-4 year rebuild. Em kay?
It isnt happening in 1 freakin draft and offseason.
Last years draft was a solid foundation. The best players at their respective positions, and the athletic freak of the draft, with the most long term upside.
Next year they break the bank, get the centerpiece to the team for 15 years, and then hit FA hard.
Thats the plan.

Buff
10-04-2011, 10:47 AM
Am I the only one who isn't completely blown away by Luck? He's good...but he doesn't seem like the next coming of (insert great quarterback here). He's seems like a decent prospect, the best one out there for sure, but that's it.

Don't get me wrong, I'd gladly take him over what we've got, I just haven't been completely blown away by him.

CU is a 30 point underdog against Stanford this weekend. Granted, that's as much about the Buffs being horrible as it is about Luck being great.

But the fact that Stanford is a 30 point favorite against anybody ought to give you an indication of how good the guy is. Anyway, I haven't watched him play as much as some people, but I have a feeling he is as good as advertised.

Northman
10-04-2011, 10:48 AM
And keep in mind folks, that this is a 3-4 year rebuild. Em kay?
It isnt happening in 1 freakin draft and offseason.
Last years draft was a solid foundation. The best players at their respective positions, and the athletic freak of the draft, with the most long term upside.
Next year they break the bank, get the centerpiece to the team for 15 years, and then hit FA hard.
Thats the plan.

I am curious SoCal.

If Luck is a sure thing what exactly makes you think another team would pass on him if they needed a QB?

BroncoStud
10-04-2011, 10:52 AM
Um, no. He may or may not be good at the pro level but if we are going to get a QB give me a pure pocket passer please.

I think he looks every bit like a pocket passer. He just happens to be mobile.

Northman
10-04-2011, 10:54 AM
I think he looks every bit like a pocket passer. He just happens to be mobile.

Ill pass sorry. Not sold on the guy.

jhildebrand
10-04-2011, 11:04 AM
I don't think the Broncos have given up on winning the division this year.

If anybody at Pidgeon Valley genuinely believes that, then they aren't the right guys for the rebuilding job and should be shown the door!

BroncoStud
10-04-2011, 11:06 AM
Ill pass sorry. Not sold on the guy.

He has more intangibles than Landry Jones, who many on here would be fine with. Having seen them both play several times in person, Griffin is the better player, by a lot. He takes a very average Baylor team and makes them prolific with his arm.

Northman
10-04-2011, 11:07 AM
If anybody at Pidgeon Valley genuinely believes that, then they aren't the right guys for the rebuilding job and should be shown the door!

That concerns me as well. We are not better than SD and not better than Oakland.

SOCALORADO.
10-04-2011, 11:07 AM
I am curious SoCal.

If Luck is a sure thing what exactly makes you think another team would pass on him if they needed a QB?

Cheap teams.

Lets look at who is possibly going to be in the running for Luck.
DEN
MIN
SEA
KC
MIA
IND

I know there might be other teams there, but STL just invested 50 Mil in Bradford. I would say its safe to assume, STL is out of the Luck sweepstakes. MIN just drafted Ponder with the 12th pick, and although i think MIN could be interested in Luck, i think there part of the team in rebuild and would be more than open to getting a nice package of 1st and 2nd round picks over the course of the next 3 years, and going with Ponder.
Same with KC. A notoriously cheap-ass team. I dont think KC would want to trade with a division rival, but if they could reap the harvest of 3 1sts, 2 2nds and 2 3rds over the course of 3 years, Pioli does it. Knowing he could still get a Jones/Foles, and have his team rebuild through the draft for years. Thats exactly what KC does. They love these kinds of moves.
SEA. Pete Carroll is in love with Matt Barkley. He recruited him outta HS, and he started him as a damn freshman. He would have no problem taking a trade down 2-3 spots and getting his guy there. Barkley is every bit as pro ready as Luck, just not as polished. Thats what a Harbaugh can do for a player in college.
MIA/IND. Not as cheap. Could be the teams that causes the most problems for Elway.
But i think Elway willing to break the bank will put DEN over the top. And DEN isnt going to be moving up much. I dont know if you noticed, but DEN sucks.
DEN will have a top 4 pick.

jlarsiii
10-04-2011, 11:11 AM
I am curious SoCal.

If Luck is a sure thing what exactly makes you think another team would pass on him if they needed a QB?

I know you asked SoCal to answer but we all know the answer to your Q. The other teams in dire need of a QB who will be near the top of the draft wouldn't pass on Luck.

We either have to be at the very top of the draft to get Luck, or be damn near the top and hope a team like St. Louis (who already has a decent QB) is at the top and will trade with us.

Right now if the Vikings, Seachickens, Colts, etc are at the top then they will take Luck and that will be that...

Northman
10-04-2011, 11:14 AM
He has more intangibles than Landry Jones, who many on here would be fine with. Having seen them both play several times in person, Griffin is the better player, by a lot. He takes a very average Baylor team and makes them prolific with his arm.

Maybe, maybe not. But he hasnt really played anyone so far this year either. TCU was ranked #14 at the time but have since dropped in the rankings (and for good reason, overrated this year). Baylor has Okie St, Oklahoma, Texas, and Texas A&M coming up yet. I will keep an eye and see how he does there and get back with you then.

Northman
10-04-2011, 11:15 AM
I know you asked SoCal to answer but we all know the answer to your Q. The other teams in dire need of a QB who will be near the top of the draft wouldn't pass on Luck.

We either have to be at the very top of the draft to get Luck, or be damn near the top and hope a team like St. Louis (who already has a decent QB) is at the top and will trade with us.

Right now if the Vikings, Seachickens, Colts, etc are at the top then they will take Luck and that will be that...

I would have to say i agree.

If Luck is that "cant miss" guy than no one will trade out of it.

SOCALORADO.
10-04-2011, 11:21 AM
On a side note since we are speaking of QBs, and i have stated this since the beginning of the offseason to all of my Dallas Cowgirl friends.
Tony Romo will not be with the Dallas Cowboys next year.
I could see him landing in KC, MIA or SEA. I swear if KC has the top pick and they trade with DAL in some giant trade for the 1st pick, Elway will really have to work his magic.

Hang on, let me see what else the magic 8-ball says..........

TXBRONC
10-04-2011, 11:24 AM
That would be a poor move if we broke the bank for Luck unfortuantely. Sure, you get the best QB in the draft but then it leaves you with nothing in terms of fixing the rest of the team. You just cant do that when you have as many glaring needs as the Broncos do.

At our current pace we wont have to break the bank because we could easily be in position to draft him. Other than the Vikings I think every other team is currently in the sweepstakes to get Luck wouldn't do it.

Northman
10-04-2011, 11:24 AM
I know there might be other teams there, but STL just invested 50 Mil in Bradford. I would say its safe to assume, STL is out of the Luck sweepstakes.

St. Louis might trade out, ill give you that. But im not sure what other positions are ranked as highly as Luck right now.


MIN just drafted Ponder with the 12th pick, and although i think MIN could be interested in Luck, i think there part of the team in rebuild and would be more than open to getting a nice package of 1st and 2nd round picks over the course of the next 3 years, and going with Ponder.

Ponder was a reach very much like Tebow was. While i do expect Ponder to play this year i have very little doubt that if Minny has the #1 pick they will not pass on Luck. Their biggest achilles heel has been the QB position the last few years and they just cant afford to bet the farm on a reach.


Same with KC. A notoriously cheap-ass team. I dont think KC would want to trade with a division rival, but if they could reap the harvest of 3 1sts, 2 2nds and 2 3rds over the course of 3 years, Pioli does it. Knowing he could still get a Jones/Foles, and have his team rebuild through the draft for years. Thats exactly what KC does. They love these kinds of moves.

KC only does this if they have a legitimate QB on the roster. Pioli got away with making moves like this because Tom Brady was there. Cassell isnt the answer for them at QB so i have to disagree, they would take Luck as well.


SEA. Pete Carroll is in love with Matt Barkley. He recruited him outta HS, and he started him as a damn freshman. He would have no problem taking a trade down 2-3 spots and getting his guy there. Barkley is every bit as pro ready as Luck, just not as polished. Thats what a Harbaugh can do for a player in college.

Lol, Carroll loved lazy ass too but didnt have a problem cutting him from the team. Carroll may love Barkley but he's no dope. Luck is worlds above Barkley in every aspect.


MIA/IND. Not as cheap. Could be the teams that causes the most problems for Elway.

Miami is still having a problem with QB, dating back to after Marino retired. There is no way in Hades hell they pass on Luck.

Indy, its all going to come down to Manning's health. If he bounces back they may pull the trigger on a trade and keep building around him for the remainder of his years. But, i have to agree with Ravage that taking Luck will guarantee them a QB for the next 15 years after Peyton retires. They may be too much to pass up on.


But i think Elway willing to break the bank will put DEN over the top. And DEN isnt going to be moving up much. I dont know if you noticed, but DEN sucks.
DEN will have a top 4 pick.

I dont believe Elway to be stupid enough to break the bank but stranger things have happened. I do agree we will be at the very least picking in the top 6-7 range.

But the biggest problem with your arguement is that its a very deep draft at that position. If Luck was the only QB to come out worth a grain of salt i think Elway would pull the trigger if he could. But, with such a deep pool of QB's i just dont see it happening.

jhildebrand
10-04-2011, 11:25 AM
At our current pace we wont have to break the bank because we could easily be in position to draft him. Other than the Vikings I think every other team is currently in the sweepstakes to get Luck wouldn't do it.

I think Indy most definitely would. I also think Luck would view that as an ideal scenario.

I still question MN doing it.

Miami would.

KC would.

Seattle would.

Ziggy
10-04-2011, 11:26 AM
Elway inherited a talent starved team with a poor offensive and defensive line. He has stated over and over again that the way to build a team is through the draft. That's exactly what he started doing this season, and he stayed true to his draft board despite all of the whining for Marcell Dareus. Good move John. You plucked the best player in the draft and have a centerpiece for the defense for the next decade.

This offensive line is a mess. Walton and Beadles are struggling to get up to average. McGahee makes up for a lot with his ability to find the hole quickly. He's made them look better now that Moreno is hurt. I'm still an advocate of moving Franklin to LG and covering the RT with a TE or back chipping out of the backfield on passing downs.

The Dline is average, which is a huge improvement from last season. Bunkley was a very good pickup. I'd like to see him re-signed this season. Mays needs to be replaced with a MLB that can hit the right gap consistently. I'm hoping that the man is Nate Iriving. Something tells me that we'll know before the season is out.

There are some good young peices on this team, but not nearly enough. Clady, Kuper, Franklin, Decker, Julius Thomas, and possibly even Demaryius Thomas on offense. Bunkley, Miller, Moore, and Doom on D. That leaves us about 11 starters short of where we need to be. I hope that Elway has the patience to keep building this thing right. He's on track to do it the Pittsburgh and Green Bay way, but it's going to take a few years.

I'm a huge Tebow fan. He's not ready to be a starting NFL QB, but he may get a chance despite that. Orton is playing his way closer to the bench every week. For those that think Tebow is 3rd on the depth chart, I highly doubt it. Quinn had his chance to lock up the job in the last preseason game and completely dropped the ball. Either way, a QB in the draft next year wouldn't suprise me a bit.

On a side note, anyone else think that Miami was crazy not to go after Tebow early in the season? Good or bad, he'd sell out every game for the next 2 years on reputation alone in any Florida stadium.

Northman
10-04-2011, 11:27 AM
At our current pace we wont have to break the bank because we could easily be in position to draft him. Other than the Vikings I think every other team is currently in the sweepstakes to get Luck wouldn't do it.

To be honest, if we want Luck and no one else i hope we finish with the #1 overall because i would hate to give up the farm for him. Its not good having a great QB with no way to build around him. When your rebuilding your rebuilding through the draft and since Denver has a hard time "hitting" the mark more times than not having as many as draft picks as possible is imperative.

Traveler
10-04-2011, 11:28 AM
Well, lets not get carried away.

My thread here is not an endorsement that i think Tebow sucks. It does not mean that Tebow will or will not fail.

Its just an acknowledgement that the brass clearly seems lost in how they want to handle the QB situation and they clearly (as Tned put it in his own thread) flip flop on a daily basis as too what they are trying to do as an organization. One minute we are a team with a chance at the playoffs the next we are rebuilding.

Going by Fox and Elway's statements it would seem they are just going to clean house without even giving Tebow an opportunity to get on the field. If Orton is just "learning" the system and yet he gives us the best chance to win than they wont be pulling him this year for any reason. It makes no sense with a guy who wont be here next year to learn a system he nots going to have to worry about the next year.

Again, if Orton doesnt know the system and isnt a winner what is there that Tebow can possibly learn from him? Nothing. So the writing seems pretty clear to me on the wall that they are just scrapping the whole thing which is ok for me. I said drafting a QB in the first would be fine as long as all the QB's were moved. But i just hope that if Tebow goes and becomes a winner elsewhere it doesnt come back and bite us in the ass YET AGAIN.

Northman,

I agree with almost everything you said in your original post except the team possibly getting rid of Tebow next season. If they do rid themselves of Tebow, it won't be next year IMO. Maybe a couple of years from now would be a more likely scenario. What I'm about to suggest is the stuff straight out of la la land, but here it goes.

John Elway has stated several times that while Tebow is indeed raw, he does include Tim in the long term plans of the team. That doesn't necessarily mean he'll remain with the team though.

I liken this situation to that of the Chargers, when they had Brees and drafted Phillip Rivers and had him sit a couple of years. Difference in this scenario is we'll have two young QB's instead of a veteran vs. younger player.

Anyway, I'm looking at this from the angle that while this season is probably a wash, Tebow will eventually get his "audition". The team will still select a QB in the 1st round next year since John may want his guy and both Orton & Quinn will no longer be under contract or return next season.

They'll continue to develop Tim and whomever they select in 2012. If they lose enough games this season and somehow get the chance to select Luck, Tim still stays. I know, the premise seems idiotic, but hear me out.

If Luck does become a Bronco he'll be given every opportunity to run the team since he is leaps and bounds ahead of Tim in all phases of running a pro-style offense. Tim might not like it, but he's a team player and he does have a signed contract.

Say Tim takes this challeng head-on and does progress enough and somehow becomes a quality starting QB, it is a win-win for the team. They'll have two quality QB's each with diffent talents to be used in differing ways. Or the more likely scenario is Tebow finally becomes trade bait, as you originally envisioned.

The only thing that would that make Tebow availble for trade as soon as next year is if the FO gets stuck on stupid and offers Orton an contract extension. Imagine the uproar if that were to happen.

Fire away everyone!

SOCALORADO.
10-04-2011, 11:36 AM
To be honest, if we want Luck and no one else i hope we finish with the #1 overall because i would hate to give up the farm for him. Its not good having a great QB with no way to build around him. When your rebuilding your rebuilding through the draft and since Denver has a hard time "hitting" the mark more times than not having as many as draft picks as possible is imperative.

Well, yeah. SUCK4LUCK! LOL!
However, i think Elway will do whatever it takes to get Luck.
Just my 2 cents along with what i see, or dont see i should say, from the FO.
Like i said we just gotta be patient. Its early, lots of crappy football still to be played in DEN.
But if anyone still thinks TT is in this teams plans, your literally on crack cocaine.

slim
10-04-2011, 11:37 AM
Exactly!:lol:

Theres a reason. And a good one!
The team is in rebuild.
EFX knew they were not winning games this season anyways.
Too many holes. So let the rebuild begin.
Next years FA is loaded. So is the draft.
Thats where DEN makes its moves.

This doesn't make sense on any level.

A team that truly believes they are rebuilding would not be starting a journeyman QB that has zero chance of being on the roster next year.

So, either they feel (or felt) they had a legit chance, or they are bumbling idiots.

jhildebrand
10-04-2011, 11:39 AM
Northman,

I agree with almost everything you said in your original post except the team possibly getting rid of Tebow next season. If they do rid themselves of Tebow, it won't be next year IMO. Maybe a couple of years from now would be a more likely scenario. What I'm about to suggest is the stuff straight out of la la land, but here it goes.

John Elway has stated several times that while Tebow is indeed raw, he does include Tim in the long term plans of the team. That doesn't necessarily mean he'll remain with the team though.

I liken this situation to that of the Chargers, when they had Brees and drafted Phillip Rivers and had him sit a couple of years. Difference in this scenario is we'll have two young QB's instead of a veteran vs. younger player.

Anyway, I'm looking at this from the angle that while this season is probably a wash, Tebow will eventually get his "audition". The team will still select a QB in the 1st round next year since John may want his guy and both Orton & Quinn will no longer be under contract or return next season.

They'll continue to develop Tim and whomever they select in 2012. If they lose enough games this season and somehow get the chance to select Luck, Tim still stays. I know, the premise seems idiotic, but hear me out.

If Luck does become a Bronco he'll be given every opportunity to run the team since he is leaps and bounds ahead of Tim in all phases of running a pro-style offense. Tim might not like it, but he's a team player and he does have a signed contract.

Say Tim takes this challeng head-on and does progress enough and somehow becomes a quality starting QB, it is a win-win for the team. They'll have two quality QB's each with diffent talents to be used in differing ways. Or the more likely scenario is Tebow finally becomes trade bait, as you originally envisioned.

The only thing that would that make Tebow availble for trade as soon as next year is if the FO gets stuck on stupid and offers Orton an contract extension. Imagine the uproar if that were to happen.

Fire away everyone!

This is the precise scenario I see the team hoping for. Also consider TT's contract number for next year. It is next to nothing compared to what they are paying him this year.

Northman
10-04-2011, 11:40 AM
John Elway has stated several times that while Tebow is indeed raw, he does include Tim in the long term plans of the team. That doesn't necessarily mean he'll remain with the team though.

And thats just my problem, too many contradicting statements by both Elway and Fox. They say one thing, then another. There is no consistency there for me to really know what to believe.


I liken this situation to that of the Chargers, when they had Brees and drafted Phillip Rivers and had him sit a couple of years. Difference in this scenario is we'll have two young QB's instead of a veteran vs. younger player.

The only problem here is that Rivers had a guy he could learn from in Brees who was only in his 3rd or 4th year. Orton is in his 6th but has no value to teach any young QB anything.


Anyway, I'm looking at this from the angle that while this season is probably a wash, Tebow will eventually get his "audition". The team will still select a QB in the 1st round next year since John may want his guy and both Orton & Quinn will no longer be under contract or return next season.

Although i agree with your logic my problem again rides on the statements that "Orton needs more time in the system". If Fox believes Orton is struggling because of the system there is no reason to bench him for any reason. Likewise, the confusion of having a guy learn a system that he wont be using next year is baffling. Unless, like i said they plan on extending Orton's contract.


They'll continue to develop Tim and whomever they select in 2012. If they lose enough games this season and somehow get the chance to select Luck, Tim still stays. I know, the premise seems idiotic, but hear me out.

If Luck does become a Bronco he'll be given every opportunity to run the team since he is leaps and bounds ahead of Tim in all phases of running a pro-style offense. Tim might not like it, but he's a team player and he does have a signed contract.

Say Tim takes this challeng head-on and does progress enough and somehow becomes a quality starting QB, it is a win-win for the team. They'll have two quality QB's each with diffent talents to be used in differing ways. Or the more likely scenario is Tebow finally becomes trade bait, as you originally envisioned.

Certainly a plausible senario. The problem is all the while your still going to have the media circus hanging over the team to have Tebow play. Frankly, i personally would just want to wash my hands with Tebow if we draft a QB in the first round next year. Im just kind of tired of it all at this point.


The only thing that would that make Tebow availble for trade as soon as next year is if the FO gets stuck on stupid and offers Orton an contract extension. Imagine the uproar if that were to happen.

Fire away everyone!

Another plausible senario.

Traveler
10-04-2011, 12:04 PM
And thats just my problem, too many contradicting statements by both Elway and Fox. They say one thing, then another. There is no consistency there for me to really know what to believe.

No argument here.


The only problem here is that Rivers had a guy he could learn from in Brees who was only in his 3rd or 4th year. Orton is in his 6th but has no value to teach any young QB anything.

True. Since Orton has shown his unwillingness to be a mentor and probably won't be here, I'd leave this task to the QB coach since it's his job to do so.


Although i agree with your logic my problem again rides on the statements that "Orton needs more time in the system". If Fox believes Orton is struggling because of the system there is no reason to bench him for any reason. Likewise, the confusion of having a guy learn a system that he wont be using next year is baffling. Unless, like i said they plan on extending Orton's contract.

Personally, I refuse to read too much between the lines of anything coming from the FO. I'll take them at their word with the realization that at some point during the season, they'll have no choice but to remove Orton from the starting lineup. As I said in another thread, it would be pure negligence on the part of the FO not to know what type of player they have in Tebow before going into the draft in 2012.


Certainly a plausible senario. The problem is all the while your still going to have the media circus hanging over the team to have Tebow play. Frankly, i personally would just want to wash my hands with Tebow if we draft a QB in the first round next year. Im just kind of tired of it all at this point.

Look where we are now. The media circus certainly doesn't seem to be an issue for them thusfar.

I do agree that it is all a bit much to bear. What gets me through it is I can remember back to the times when this team was a perinnial doormat during the late 60's and early 70's. Makes what we are experincing now much earier to deal with.

SOCALORADO.
10-04-2011, 12:09 PM
This doesn't make sense on any level.

A team that truly believes they are rebuilding would not be starting a journeyman QB that has zero chance of being on the roster next year.

So, either they feel (or felt) they had a legit chance, or they are bumbling idiots.

It makes perfect sense.
All 3 QBs suck. The FO knows it.
Its irrelevant as far as they are concerned.
What? Tebow would be worse?
They are 1-3 under Orton! LOL! Who cares?!?!
You can fantasize all you want, about TT.
Orton is bad, Tebows bad, and Quinns bad.
They gave the vet the reins and they are sucking as planned.
Playing TT only hurts his trade value. Which isnt much.

claymore
10-04-2011, 12:14 PM
This doesn't make sense on any level.

A team that truly believes they are rebuilding would not be starting a journeyman QB that has zero chance of being on the roster next year.

So, either they feel (or felt) they had a legit chance, or they are bumbling idiots.

If they truly believe Tebow has zero chance of being a part of the future, and they want to preserve any trade value he has. Then it makes perfect sense.

Lancane
10-04-2011, 12:15 PM
I don't think Denver's first round pick will be Andrew Luck and I don't think it will be Matt Barkley at this point either. Whomever has the first overall pick, besides Philadelphia, Jacksonville, Minnesota, Carolina, St. Louis or Arizona will without question take Luck, that's Indianapolis, Kansas City, Denver or Miami and even Seattle. Though Carroll may be hesitant and want to take Barkley instead, he'd be hard pressed by management and the fan base to draft Luck instead.

It's still too early to tell where teams will be drafting; Denver, Kansas City, Philadelphia, Carolina, Seattle and Arizona all have 1-3 records, whilst Miami, Indianapolis, St. Louis and Minnesota are 0-4. Philadelphia, St. Louis, Carolina, Seattle, Arizona and Miami I feel have the ability let alone the schedules to win more games then the rest of the teams I have mentioned. I think it will be Denver, Indianapolis, Kansas City and Minnesota who struggle and end up with surefire top five draft picks...

As to who we draft, I have been leaning towards Landry Jones from Oklahoma for various reasons and I still believe he is the most likely pick we take come next April.

SOCALORADO.
10-04-2011, 12:20 PM
I don't think Denver's first round pick will be Andrew Luck and I don't think it will be Matt Barkley at this point either. Whomever has the first overall pick, besides Philadelphia, Jacksonville, Minnesota, Carolina, St. Louis or Arizona will without question take Luck, that's Indianapolis, Kansas City, Denver or Miami and even Seattle. Though Carroll may be hesitant and want to take Barkley instead, he'd be hard pressed by management and the fan base to draft Luck instead.

It's still too early to tell where teams will be drafting; Denver, Kansas City, Philadelphia, Carolina, Seattle and Arizona all have 1-3 records, whilst Miami, Indianapolis, St. Louis and Minnesota are 0-4. Philadelphia, St. Louis, Carolina, Seattle, Arizona and Miami I feel have the ability let alone the schedules to win more games then the rest of the teams I have mentioned. I think it will be Denver, Indianapolis, Kansas City and Minnesota who struggle and end up with surefire top five draft picks...

As to who we draft, I have been leaning towards Landry Jones from Oklahoma for various reasons and I still believe he is the most likely pick we take come next April.


This could happen too. Bowlen is a sooner isnt he?

slim
10-04-2011, 12:20 PM
This doesn't make sense on any level.

A team that truly believes they are rebuilding would not be starting a journeyman QB that has zero chance of being on the roster next year.

So, either they feel (or felt) they had a legit chance, or they are bumbling idiots.

If they truly believe Tebow has zero chance of being a part of the future, and they want to preserve any trade value he has. Then it makes perfect sense.

If they made that determination without giving him a chance, then I fear for the future of this franchise.

Lancane
10-04-2011, 12:22 PM
This could happen too. Bowlen is a sooner isnt he?

That's correct, he's a Sooner Alumni and has close ties to the Oklahoma Football Program.

slim
10-04-2011, 12:23 PM
It makes perfect sense.
All 3 QBs suck. The FO knows it.
Its irrelevant as far as they are concerned.
What? Tebow would be worse?
They are 1-3 under Orton! LOL! Who cares?!?!
You can fantasize all you want, about TT.
Orton is bad, Tebows bad, and Quinns bad.
They gave the vet the reins and they are sucking as planned.
Playing TT only hurts his trade value. Which isnt much.

Do you understand what "rebuilding" means?

It makes no sense.

claymore
10-04-2011, 12:28 PM
If they made that determination without giving him a chance, then I fear for the future of this franchise.

Is it plausible that Tebow is so bad during practice, team meetings, one on one meetings and maybe even the locker room that the team has no desire to give him a chance?

I have a hard time believing they would stiffle talent for no reason whatsoever. Maybe I could wrap my mind around it if I could see some sort of gain from doing so.

Its not like anyone likes Orton, or they are tied to him. He is the definition of disposable.

HORSEPOWER 56
10-04-2011, 12:28 PM
At this point, I can only hope that whoever ends up with the #1 overall pick already has their "franchise" QB and wants to trade out of it so we can make a move for Luck. Right now, I'd mortgage our entire 2012 draft to get a potentially great QB not named Orton in the roster.

dogfish
10-04-2011, 12:29 PM
I know you asked SoCal to answer but we all know the answer to your Q. The other teams in dire need of a QB who will be near the top of the draft wouldn't pass on Luck.

We either have to be at the very top of the draft to get Luck, or be damn near the top and hope a team like St. Louis (who already has a decent QB) is at the top and will trade with us.

Right now if the Vikings, Seachickens, Colts, etc are at the top then they will take Luck and that will be that...

yup-- socal is viciously deluding himself if he thinks any team that realistically has a shot at number one will pass on luck, aside from st. louis or carolina. . . no one else is passing on a guy that very legitimately looks like the best QB prospect since PAYton-- regardless of how bad elway wants the kid. . . that's just wishful thinking. . .

i have zero doubt that we're taking a QB first next year-- but it won't be luck unless we pretty much lose out. . .

slim
10-04-2011, 12:33 PM
Is it plausible that Tebow is so bad during practice, team meetings, one on one meetings and maybe even the locker room that the team has no desire to give him a chance?

I have a hard time believing they would stiffle talent for no reason whatsoever. Maybe I could wrap my mind around it if I could see some sort of gain from doing so.

Its not like anyone likes Orton, or they are tied to him. He is the definition of disposable.

I suppose it's plausible.

So, they have determined that Tebow can't play. Is it plausible that they are wrong in that evaluation?

Has there ever been a time when a back-up failed to impress his coaches in practice, but then played really well when given a chance on gameday?

There is no downside to finding out...none. And spare me the "it would hurt is trade value" BS...he has no trade value anyway.

DenBronx
10-04-2011, 12:46 PM
Andrew Luck - Franchise QB, can't miss prospect
Matt Barkley - Not as good as Luck, could be a good player
Landry Jones - Not as good as Luck, but bigger arm than Barkley, less mobile
Nick Foles - Big QB, lacks some mobility, checks down A LOT
Kirk Cousins - Orton with a big arm and more mobility
Ryan Lindley - Lacks NFL accuracy, project, we already have one of those
Robert Griffin III - This guy looks incredible at times, he's growing on me
Ryan Tannehill - A project like Tebow, but with less talent
Brandon Weeden - If he wasn't 28 he would be a top 3 QB
Kellen Moore - Small and lacks elite arm
Case Keenum - System QB but has a good arm and is mobile


I think the Dolphins will end up with Luck. We would have to trade our whole draft just to get him.

If the Colts took Luck would you guys be happy taking a trade risk on P. Manning for the remainder of his career? I could see the Colts trading him if the didnt feel 100% he would be back. I doubt Manning would agree but I'd take him for a 1st for 5 years if we didnt get Luck.

Mike
10-04-2011, 12:48 PM
Is it plausible that Tebow is so bad during practice, team meetings, one on one meetings and maybe even the locker room that the team has no desire to give him a chance?

I have a hard time believing they would stiffle talent for no reason whatsoever. Maybe I could wrap my mind around it if I could see some sort of gain from doing so.

Its not like anyone likes Orton, or they are tied to him. He is the definition of disposable.

Ugh. Did we not see enough raw talent in the last 3 games of last year? That completely blows this argument out of the water.

In his first 3 games he was at least as good as bum. I saw him at practice this year, he was not as bad as what people were saying. People and the media in particular are like sheep. They hear one person say something and they go along with it. Not saying that he was great, but the difference between him and bum was not as drastic as was being reported.

claymore
10-04-2011, 12:51 PM
I suppose it's plausible.

So, they have determined that Tebow can't play. Is it plausible that they are wrong in that evaluation?

Has there ever been a time when a back-up failed to impress his coaches in practice, but then played really well when given a chance on gameday?

There is no downside to finding out...none. And spare me the "it would hurt is trade value" BS...he has no trade value anyway.

There is no downside to the fans who are not held responsible. There is a downside to the Org/coaches etc... just putting 3rd stringers in when you are a qtr of a way thru the season.

Yes they could be wrong. But they would be in the best position to make an educated guess.

Everyone else is just screaming at them to bypass the REAL depth chart and start the 3rd best option.

TXBRONC
10-04-2011, 12:53 PM
To be honest, if we want Luck and no one else i hope we finish with the #1 overall because i would hate to give up the farm for him. Its not good having a great QB with no way to build around him. When your rebuilding your rebuilding through the draft and since Denver has a hard time "hitting" the mark more times than not having as many as draft picks as possible is imperative.

I'm sure Elway would love have Luck but it's fantasy talk to think that he would give up the farm for one player. There isn't anything Elway has said that would gives me the impression that he would cut his nose off to spite his face.

slim
10-04-2011, 12:53 PM
Ugh. Did we not see enough raw talent in the last 3 games of last year? That completely blows this argument out of the water.

In his first 3 games he was at least as good as bum. I saw him at practice this year, he was not as bad as what people were saying. People and the media in particular are like sheep. They hear one person say something and they go along with it. Not saying that he was great, but the difference between him and bum was not as drastic as was being reported.

Exactly. He played well enough at the end of last year that our FO was eager to trade Orton and give the kid a chance.

Two days after the trade falls through and they completely write the kid off?

So, one day they think he can play and the next day he cant. That doesn't really give me a lot of confidence in their ability to judge talent.

DenBronx
10-04-2011, 12:54 PM
Who's to say Luck won't stay in school for his senior year?

claymore
10-04-2011, 12:56 PM
Who's to say Luck won't stay in school for his senior year?

This is his senior year.

chazoe60
10-04-2011, 12:58 PM
This is his senior year.

He has another year of eligibilty Clay.

slim
10-04-2011, 12:58 PM
There is no downside to the fans who are not held responsible. There is a downside to the Org/coaches etc... just putting 3rd stringers in when you are a qtr of a way thru the season.

Yes they could be wrong. But they would be in the best position to make an educated guess.

Everyone else is just screaming at them to bypass the REAL depth chart and start the 3rd best option.

What is the downside of making a QB change to the coaches/org? There is almost no short-term upside from sticking with Orton, but the long-term consequences of not making a change could be devastating.

SOCALORADO.
10-04-2011, 01:03 PM
I suppose it's plausible.

So, they have determined that Tebow can't play. Is it plausible that they are wrong in that evaluation?

Has there ever been a time when a back-up failed to impress his coaches in practice, but then played really well when given a chance on gameday?

There is no downside to finding out...none. And spare me the "it would hurt is trade value" BS...he has no trade value anyway.

The FO already knows. Thats why TT is 3rd string.
These dilusional fantasies about TT are getting dowright pathetic.
Let it go.

claymore
10-04-2011, 01:05 PM
What is the downside of making a QB change to the coaches/org? There is almost no short-term upside from sticking with Orton, but the long-term consequences of not making a change could be devastating.

Why would they be devastating? Who on the roster has shown to the coaches they could lead this mess to a better record?

No one has. Thats the problem. Y'all want to hand over the starting QB spot to a dude who hasnt earned it.

DenBronx
10-04-2011, 01:05 PM
This is his senior year.

He can stay at Stanford another year.

He flunked Algebra.

Nomad
10-04-2011, 01:06 PM
Who's to say Luck won't stay in school for his senior year?

I asked the same question before and googled it and found Luck said this is his last year at Stanford. Whereas last year, he stated he wanted to return back to school and some here were like "no way does he pass the money". But it looks to be his last year and he'll be freezing his butt off in Minnesota getting a facemask full of Urlacher/Peppers, Suh/Fairley, Raja/Matthews 6 times a year.

slim
10-04-2011, 01:07 PM
The FO already knows. Thats why TT is 3rd string.
These dilusional fantasies about TT are getting dowright pathetic.
Let it go.

What did they "know" about TT when they were trying to trade Orton? Did they "know" he was a bust then?

SOCALORADO.
10-04-2011, 01:07 PM
Who's to say Luck won't stay in school for his senior year?

He is graduating with a degree in Architectural Engineering.
Thats the whole reason he went back to school.
I believe hes stated that this was the sole reason, and that he would enter the NFL when he had his degree this year.

DenBronx
10-04-2011, 01:08 PM
I asked the same question before and googled it and found Luck said this is his last year at Stanford. Whereas last year, he stated he wanted to return back to school and some here were like "no way does he pass the money". But it looks to be his last year and he'll be freezing his butt off in Minnesota getting a facemask full of Urlacher/Peppers, Suh/Fairley, Raja/Matthews 6 times a year.

Minn drafted a QB (Ponder) early last year so I doubt it. But who knows, Carolina drafted Claussen early and still went with a QB #1 overall.

I think Miami or possibly KC. Both of those teams QBs are on the hotseat.

slim
10-04-2011, 01:09 PM
Why would they be devastating? Who on the roster has shown to the coaches they could lead this mess to a better record?

No one has. Thats the problem. Y'all want to hand over the starting QB spot to a dude who hasnt earned it.

No, I want them to evaluate the talent on the roster so they can form a long-term plan...nothing more.

Let all of the kids play and see which ones deserve to be here next year. IMO, the majority of this roster needs to be gone. Let's find out, under game conditions, which kids can play and which ones can't.

SOCALORADO.
10-04-2011, 01:09 PM
What did they "know" about TT when they were trying to trade Orton? Did they "know" he was a bust then?

No. The new regime came in and saw just how truly bad he was.
I have little doubt that Elway ripped all of the hold-overs from MCDs regime about TT being ready. And then the trade disussions stopped as well.
And we never heard another peep about TT being anywhere NEAR the 1st team offense.
TT is not an Elway/Fox guy. Everyone talks about how the hold out hurt TT. Actually, the hold out hurt Elway/Fox much more. They were told TT was legit, then they saw him in practice and said, "WTF!?!?!?!"

Nomad
10-04-2011, 01:10 PM
Minn drafted a QB (Ponder) early last year so I doubt it.

I think Miami or possibly KC. Both of those teams QBs are on the hotseat.

Ponder's a reach and Minny wouldn't pass up on Luck! My guess he goes to Minny.

vandammage13
10-04-2011, 01:10 PM
I suppose it's plausible.

So, they have determined that Tebow can't play. Is it plausible that they are wrong in that evaluation?

Has there ever been a time when a back-up failed to impress his coaches in practice, but then played really well when given a chance on gameday?

There is no downside to finding out...none. And spare me the "it would hurt is trade value" BS...he has no trade value anyway.

Tom Brady, Kurt Warner, and Steve Young are just a few high profile examples off the top of my head.

If the Pats/Rams knew what they had in Brady and Warner, it wouldn't have taken an injury to get them on the field. Imagine if Drew Bledsoe had never gotten injured...Brady might have sat on the bench a couple more years and then moved on to another team after his rookie contract was up. The Pats would have let him walk without ever even knowing what they had. Same can be said for Warner if Trent Green never got hurt.

As for Steve Young, the Bucs let him go too soon and we all know the story on how that ended up.

A Bills fan might bring up Fitzpatrick VS. Trent Edwards.

There's only so much you can evaluate based on practice. I'm not saying performance in practice has no merit in considering your starter (it does and it should), but ultimately you never know what you have until the real bullets are flying.

If greatness were determined on the practice field and automatically translated to real games Orton would at least have a Pro Bowl appearance by now and maybe a couple of playoff starts to show for it.

Some guys just excel under pressure and others don't...The reason for this can't really be quantified or identified in practice. It is not until they see real game action that you can determine if they will make it or not.

DenBronx
10-04-2011, 01:11 PM
Why would they be devastating? Who on the roster has shown to the coaches they could lead this mess to a better record?

No one has. Thats the problem. Y'all want to hand over the starting QB spot to a dude who hasnt earned it.

Has Ortonary earned it after 2 1/2 years?

claymore
10-04-2011, 01:12 PM
He has another year of eligibilty Clay.

I dont see why he would go back after he got his degree this spring.

slim
10-04-2011, 01:12 PM
No. The new regime came in and saw just how truly bad he was.
I have little doubt that Elway ripped all of the hold-overs from MCDs regime about TT being ready. And then the trade disussions stopped as well.
And we never heard another peep about TT being anywhere NEAR the 1st team offense.
TT is not an Elway/Fox guy.

Please...they watched TT's film from the last 3 games and decided there was enough there to work with. Two days later they changed their mind? Again, that doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

claymore
10-04-2011, 01:13 PM
Has Ortonary earned it after 2 1/2 years?

On this team yes. Unfortunatley we dont have anyone better on the team.

vandammage13
10-04-2011, 01:13 PM
No. The new regime came in and saw just how truly bad he was.
I have little doubt that Elway ripped all of the hold-overs from MCDs regime about TT being ready. And then the trade disussions stopped as well.
And we never heard another peep about TT being anywhere NEAR the 1st team offense.
TT is not an Elway/Fox guy. Everyone talks about how the hold out hurt TT. Actually, the hold out hurt Elway/Fox much more. They were told TT was legit, then they saw him in practice and said, "WTF!?!?!?!"

I think the trade discussions for Orton stopping had less to do with Elway not feeling good about TT, and more to do with the fact that no one was knocking on the door for Orton.

DenBronx
10-04-2011, 01:18 PM
On this team yes. Unfortunatley we dont have anyone better on the team.


I'm sure we have someone on our team that doesnt throw pick 6s on a regular basis.

jhildebrand
10-04-2011, 01:18 PM
Y'all want to hand over the starting QB spot to a dude who hasnt earned it.

Orton was HANDED THIS JOB! :laugh:

That is what is so asinine about the TT needs to earn it line of bull shit.

All accounts were Chris Simms easily had the best OTA's, TC, and Preseason in 09! It ratcheted to a high at the Orton Hears a Boo at the then named Invesco practice!

It was so bad McDaniels had to come out and simply name Orton the starter DESPITE Simms being the better practice player! So why should Quinn or TT have to earn something that was handed to Orton? :confused:

Brady didn't "earn" it. Romo didn't "earn" it. Roethlisberger didn't "earn" it. Warner didn't "earn" it. They all came in due to injury!

Rivers and Rodgers didn't "earn" it. Their teams shipped off bona fide starters so those guys could play.

I don't like much about McDaniels but at least he had the wherewithall to stamp out any QB drama between Simms and Orton immediately! At least he could see a QB debate heating up.

He was smart enough to realize the disaster it would have been to have traded Cutler in part for Orton only to have Orton lose out to a guy who was out of football for a couple of seasons and had been damn near killed on the field. *

jhildebrand
10-04-2011, 01:21 PM
By the way, it is kind of hard to earn a job in a competition that was anything but open!

slim
10-04-2011, 01:24 PM
On this team yes. Unfortunatley we dont have anyone better on the team.

My understanding is that the three headed monster is in disagreement about this.

Fox has final say on who starts...at least for now. I doubt he will for much longer.

SOCALORADO.
10-04-2011, 01:25 PM
I think the trade discussions for Orton stopping had less to do with Elway not feeling good about TT, and more to do with the fact that no one was knocking on the door for Orton.

While i agree that they were attempting to rape a team for Orton, i think they also saw that TT wasnt anywhere near being a capable QB and stopped all trade talks anyways.
It all just fell apart.

as to your assertion that Tom Brady, Steve Young and Kurt Warner were bad practice players, that pure BS.
Steve Young handicapped himself by playing with the LA Express of the USFL and then when it fell apart, went to TB. He was never a bad practice player. He played for Holmgren and knew how to play in a pro style system. then he was traded to SF where he sat behind Montana.
Brady was absolutely praised for his practices as a rookie by Belecheat.
Kurt Warner was a one in a million story. I dont think he was a bad practice player though. If anything alls he did was practice! LOL! In the arena league, in europe. Dude just practiced all day.

Northman
10-04-2011, 01:25 PM
Going by Fox's statements it doesnt matter much. Apparently Orton doesnt know the system very well either at this point so considering a 6 year vet is struggling with the system imagine how a 2nd year player is going to be. Add in the fact that our depth is atrocious and any QB that is forced to try and learn a system using that squad is already behind the 8 ball. Just goes to further prove my theory that Orton didnt necessarily outshine Tebow as he did having more experience in the league to begin with.

claymore
10-04-2011, 01:27 PM
Im not going to argue it anymore today. Nobody is going to change each others minds. I will say that I believe the Broncos are putting the best QB on the field. He might suck, but he is all we have.

There is absolutley zero benefit to keeping Tebow on the bench if he is the better player. The Broncos are taking it on the chin by the fans, and they are probably doing the right thing.

I hope we trade/cut tebow as soon as possible. He is a cancer to the fans and team.

SOCALORADO.
10-04-2011, 01:28 PM
Please...they watched TT's film from the last 3 games and decided there was enough there to work with. Two days later they changed their mind? Again, that doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

I am done arguing these cheesy excuses.
Those games were against players who were making their vacation plans at halftime, and thinking about cocktails and centerfolds through the entire game(s).

Obviously these game tapes have not inspired the FO to move TT up from co-2nd stringer.

Nomad
10-04-2011, 01:29 PM
Going by Fox's statements it doesnt matter much. Apparently Orton doesnt know the system very well either at this point so considering a 6 year vet is struggling with the system imagine how a 2nd year player is going to be. Add in the fact that our depth is atrocious and any QB that is forced to try and learn a system using that squad is already behind the 8 ball. Just goes to further prove my theory that Orton didnt necessarily outshine Tebow as he did having more experience in the league to begin with.

He's been with McCoy 2 yrs:confused:. What's not to grasp in this simplistic system plus you can always count on orton to call the audible for the checkdown. Dcoordinators treat the BRONCOS as a bye week.

jhildebrand
10-04-2011, 01:30 PM
Im not going to argue it anymore today. Nobody is going to change each others minds. I will say that I believe the Broncos are putting the best QB on the field. He might suck, but he is all we have.

There is absolutley zero benefit to keeping Tebow on the bench if he is the better player. The Broncos are taking it on the chin by the fans, and they are probably doing the right thing.

I hope we trade/cut tebow as soon as possible. He is a cancer to the fans and team.

Like tned said: some people are so entrenched in their support for Orton, almost for no reason, that they act as if they have to continue with the line at any cost.

Should TT play and perform well, you do realize many people on this board will criticise you harshly and constantly serve you crow for posts like this...right?

chazoe60
10-04-2011, 01:30 PM
Jhild is 100% correct. Kyle Orton has never EARNED the starting job of the Denver Broncos because he's been handed the job three consecutive years. This guy is treated like an untouchable elite QB talent when he is easily a bottom five starter right now.



Isn't the major fear of starting a young QB that he'll commit too mamy turnovers? Guess who leads the league in turnovers. :laugh:


The entire situation is fubar.

slim
10-04-2011, 01:31 PM
I am done arguing these cheesy excuses.
Those games were against players who were making their vacation plans at halftime, and thinking about cocktails and centerfolds through the entire game(s).

Obviously these game tapes have not inspired the FO to move TT up from co-2nd stringer.

Cheesy excuses indeed!

jhildebrand
10-04-2011, 01:32 PM
I am done arguing these cheesy excuses.
Those games were against players who were making their vacation plans at halftime, and thinking about cocktails and centerfolds through the entire game(s).

Obviously these game tapes have not inspired the FO to move TT up from co-2nd stringer.

Kubiak's job was on the line at that point.

SD still was in the mix late in the year and had the #1 O and D.

claymore
10-04-2011, 01:32 PM
Like tned said: some people are so entrenched in their support for Orton, almost for no reason, that they act as if they have to continue with the line at any cost.

Should TT play and perform well, you do realize many people on this board will criticise you harshly and constantly serve you crow for posts like this...right?

I dont support any of our QB's. Very few here can talk shit about crow because I dont rub their noses in all the shit I took for McD.

Nomad
10-04-2011, 01:33 PM
Like tned said: some people are so entrenched in their support for Orton, almost for no reason, that they act as if they have to continue with the line at any cost.

Should TT play and perform well, you do realize many people on this board will criticise you harshly and constantly serve you crow for posts like this...right?

i believe claymore dislikes Tebow so much that he's not willing to give it a try. The Tebow fanatics have turned alot of people off and they just want the kid off the team regardless

jhildebrand
10-04-2011, 01:35 PM
I dont support any of our QB's. Very few here can talk shit about crow because I dont rub their noses in all the shit I took for McD.

Hey I took a ton of shit over McD. I criticised that baphoon at 4-0, 5-0, and 6-0. In fact, my criticism of McD at another place, when it wasn't the popular thing to do, is what led to me coming here.

Same could be said for Hillis!

At this point McD and Hillis have nothing to do with it. When you post a guy is a cancer and can definitively say he can't play, as if 3 games is enough, you aren't leaving a lot of room for error. Of course people can and should call that out.

slim
10-04-2011, 01:35 PM
I dont support any of our QB's. Very few here can talk shit about crow because I dont rub their noses in all the shit I took for McD.

I would rather you rub my nose in shit than listen to you defend the playing time Orton is getting. :welcome:

jhildebrand
10-04-2011, 01:36 PM
i believe claymore dislikes Tebow so much that he's not willing to give it a try. The Tebow fanatics have turned alot of people off and they just want the kid off the team regardless

I get that.

I have learned to eliminate the TT nuts on the right side of the curve. I guess I should do the same with the left side who hate him because of his followers.

It just seems like there is a very small midsection when it comes to this guy!

horsepig
10-04-2011, 01:38 PM
I was wrong. Tebow will not be here next year. This statement by Fox is not only moronic but a clear indication to me that none of these QB's will be here next year. If Fox believes that Orton needs more time in this system (even though he gives us the best chance to win now) yet his contract runs out at the end of the year i just dont see any of them being here. I am now on board, we are drafting a QB next year.....

Ridiculous statement by Fox. Systems don't win championships, players do.

A more important observation might be that Orton is not doing all that well in this "system" and that the guys designing and implementing the "system" don't know WTF they're doing.

claymore
10-04-2011, 01:38 PM
Hey I took a ton of shit over McD. I criticised that baphoon at 4-0, 5-0, and 6-0. In fact, my criticism of McD at another place, when it wasn't the popular thing to do, is what led to me coming here.

Same could be said for Hillis!

At this point McD and Hillis have nothing to do with it. When you post a guy is a cancer and can definitively say he can't play, as if 3 games is enough, you aren't leaving a lot of room for error. Of course people can and should call that out.Meh, I think he is a cancer. I cant wait till he's gone. I will gladly eat crow if im wrong. I dont think I am though.




I would rather you rub my nose in shit than listen to you defend the playing time Orton is getting. :welcome:

Ive never defended Orton. I think he sucks. I just think that Tebow is probably worse.

slim
10-04-2011, 01:40 PM
Meh, I think he is a cancer. I cant wait till he's gone. I will gladly eat crow if im wrong. I dont think I am though.





Ive never defended Orton. I think he sucks. I just think that Tebow is probably worse.

Well, you were right about McD....so I guess you are due to be wrong about something!!

TXBRONC
10-04-2011, 01:40 PM
Exactly. He played well enough at the end of last year that our FO was eager to trade Orton and give the kid a chance.

Two days after the trade falls through and they completely write the kid off?

So, one day they think he can play and the next day he cant. That doesn't really give me a lot of confidence in their ability to judge talent.

I think Elway knows what it takes to be great quarterback. So right now I wont question their ability to judge talent.

I also think that even EFX doesn't think Tebow is their guy he's going to get a chance to prove them wrong. They have to know if they need to draft a quarterback next year.

jhildebrand
10-04-2011, 01:42 PM
I think EFX are afraid Tebow will be just good enough to win them out of the Luck sweepstakes (which, sadly, Orton may have done enough already) and show just enough for the fans that they fear being saddled with the guy and what may be fools gold.

slim
10-04-2011, 01:42 PM
I think Elway knows what it takes to be great quarterback. So right now I wont question their ability to judge talent.

I also think that even EFX doesn't think Tebow is their guy he's going to get a chance to prove them wrong. They have to know if they need to draft a quarterback next year.

I agree with this. I think it's only a matter of time before he plays.

I just hope it's sooner rather than later. Give him a real chance and see how/if he improves from week-to-week.

Northman
10-04-2011, 01:44 PM
He's been with McCoy 2 yrs:confused:. What's not to grasp in this simplistic system plus you can always count on orton to call the audible for the checkdown. Dcoordinators treat the BRONCOS as a bye week.

My thoughts exactly, but he's apparently struggling. :lol:

chazoe60
10-04-2011, 01:44 PM
Orton is more of a cancer than Tebow. Orton sucks, he's won 6 out of his last 27 games, and he has boldly declared his disdain for the fans. Orton is a piece of shit who continually helps drive this once proud franchise further into the ground, and he does it without ever taking responsibilty for his own suck. He constantly deflects blame. And he smugly talks about how the fans don't matter amd he doesn't care about the fans.

The day he ceases to be a Denver Bronco will be a very fine day indeed.

horsepig
10-04-2011, 01:44 PM
That's just pure speculation on your part. You might be right, or John Elway might be right about still being excited about Tebow, but believing you can ruin a young QB by throwing him to the wolves. We simply don't know what the 'truth' is.

Ruining a young QB by "throwing him to the wolves" is passe. This is not pre millenium here folks.

All QB's are "young" when thay first take the reins, and to be sure, the NFL is populated only by wolves.

SOCALORADO.
10-04-2011, 01:46 PM
Kubiak's job was on the line at that point.

SD still was in the mix late in the year and had the #1 O and D.


One more time. Cheesy excuses.
None of those teams were sniffing the playoffs.

Nomad
10-04-2011, 01:47 PM
It's the same mindnumbing bs we've seen from Dove Valley and Orton. He sucks and will not lead us anyway.......why in the hell is it so hard for EFX to show us that Tebow sucks just as bad (if that's the case he's really that bad) because regardless we're stuck in a rebuilding rut and we're not moving until the FO learns how to draft and rebuild this team.

Lancane
10-04-2011, 01:49 PM
Who's to say Luck won't stay in school for his senior year?

Because he's already graduated, he's officially a junior but he does have another year of eligibility should he decide to go for it...but he won't, how does a college football player afford to live when all he has left is football? No way Luck returns...Barkley and Jones could decide to, but I don't see it happening, because one wrong move and your in the mid rounds and no longer in the first.

slim
10-04-2011, 01:49 PM
It's the same mindnumbing bs we've seen from Dove Valley and Orton. He sucks and will not lead us anyway.......why in the hell is it so hard for EFX to show us that Tebow sucks just as bad (if that's the case he's really that bad) because regardless we're stuck in a rebuilding rut and we're not moving until the FO learns how to draft and rebuild this team.

No downside to making a change....none.

BigDaddyBronco
10-04-2011, 01:57 PM
No downside to making a change....none.

Agreed. Who are they going to piss off? Champ, Dawkins, and Orton? The fans will be happy to be rebuilding instead of treading water. Does Fox think he will lose the team? Not winning and making no changes is how you lose a team.

I don't think Bowlen cares as long as the team's rep doesn't nosedive and he doesn't lose lots of money, playing Tebow will make him money. Fox's repoutation will get better as it will show that he will take chances to improve the team.

It's a no brainer. If EFX is right and Tebow fails miserably, then they should get his ass off the team. Not playing him isn't going to salvage his trade value much.

Northman
10-04-2011, 01:58 PM
I dont support any of our QB's. Very few here can talk shit about crow because I dont rub their noses in all the shit I took for McD.

I never gave you shit for McD so dont try and lump me in that crowd (not saying you are).

But, considering where you and i both stand on Cutler and where we stood back in 06' when Jay took over im a tad bit surprised you have written Tebow off so quickly after just 3 games. I remember having to come out and defend Cutler because so many people wanted to write him off because he was struggling as a young QB and i know you did too. But man, look at this below. Considering the surrounding circumstances of both QB's that they had going on around them Tebow as basically outplayed Cutler in his first 3 starts all the while having more going against him in terms of a supporting cast.

T.Tebow:
651 yds, 4 passing TDs, 3 Rushing TDs, 3 Ints

31st in Defense
26th in Rushing

J. Cutler:
592 yds, 6 TDs, 3 Ints

14th in Defense
8th in Rushing


Again, this isnt so much about Tebow succeeding or failing but you are just so sure he wont make it yet i cant understand the logic there when he's actually done better than a guy i know you like under worst circumstances.

jhildebrand
10-04-2011, 02:01 PM
One more time. Cheesy excuses.
None of those teams were sniffing the playoffs.

Ok. But like almost every argument used against Tebow the same could be said for Orton.

Orton, with the #1 D (that finished 7th overall) only needed to get one win against bad WASH, OAK who was on the schedule twice, and a terrible KC team in 09. He couldn't do that. He got smeared by two of the three!

Orton has been beat by a JaMarcus Russell raiders team. He has been beaten by plenty of bad teams. So at least Tim Tebow could lead a team from 17 down at half, let alone 3, even if the teams weren't playing for anything at that point. Orton can't even do that. So let's be sure to apply the same arguments to Orton before acting like they only are pertinent with TT.

Nomad
10-04-2011, 02:03 PM
I never gave you shit for McD so dont try and lump me in that crowd (not saying you are).

But, considering where you and i both stand on Cutler and where we stood back in 06' when Jay took over im a tad bit surprised you have written Tebow off so quickly after just 3 games. I remember having to come out and defend Cutler because so many people wanted to write him off because he was struggling as a young QB and i know you did too. But man, look at this below. Considering the surrounding circumstances of both QB's that they had going on around them Tebow as basically outplayed Cutler in his first 3 starts all the while having more going against him in terms of a supporting cast.

T.Tebow:
651 yds, 4 passing TDs, 3 Rushing TDs, 3 Ints

31st in Defense
26th in Rushing

J. Cutler:
592 yds, 6 TDs, 3 Ints

14th in Defense
8th in Rushing


Again, this isnt so much about Tebow succeeding or failing but you are just so sure he wont make it yet i cant understand the logic there when he's actually done better than a guy i know you like under worst circumstances.

The reason I know clay's mindset is because I was the same way with Cutler.

jhildebrand
10-04-2011, 02:04 PM
Ruining a young QB by "throwing him to the wolves" is passe. This is not pre millenium here folks.

All QB's are "young" when thay first take the reins, and to be sure, the NFL is populated only by wolves.

The Rams are ruining sam bradford. The lions ruined stafford. The steelers big ben. Carolina is clearly ruining Newton.

Oh....

horsepig
10-04-2011, 02:08 PM
I think EFX are afraid Tebow will be just good enough to win them out of the Luck sweepstakes (which, sadly, Orton may have done enough already) and show just enough for the fans that they fear being saddled with the guy and what may be fools gold.

Good point jh, I like the fool's gold line, but they still have to play him or trade him for high value. If they do neither they will be drawn and quatered by the fans and media.

I just don't know, but I'd sure as Hell like to find out if he can translate that college mojo to the big league, a lot of players like him have and a lot have failed. He sure won a lot though, I mean really a lot.

BigDaddyBronco
10-04-2011, 02:09 PM
The reason I know clay's mindset is because I was the same way with Cutler.

I thought Cutler was going to be a pretty good QB, just like I think Tebow has a chance to be a good QB. I stopped liking Cutler after some press conferences and his attitude on the field. Seemed like a prima dona, whinny bitch. I don't think Tebow has Cutler's skills, but he is a 180 from him in attitude.

I was, however, annoyed that they drafted Cutler, when Plummer was doing fine (not the perfect QB, but we won games with him) and we could have used the pick for more defense (Haloti Ngata....cough....cough).

Nomad
10-04-2011, 02:14 PM
I thought Cutler was going to be a pretty good QB, just like I think Tebow has a chance to be a good QB. I stopped liking Cutler after some press conferences and his attitude on the field. Seemed like a prima dona, whinny bitch. I don't think Tebow has Cutler's skills, but he is a 180 from him in attitude.

I was, however, annoyed that they drafted Cutler, when Plummer was doing fine (not the perfect QB, but we won games with him) and we could have used the pick for more defense (Haloti Ngata....cough....cough).

You would have thought I made this ^^^^post.....my thoughts exactly. Didn't like the pick, attitude turned me off, people drove me nuts making Cutler out to be the 2nd coming of Elway and I haven't given him the benefit of the doubt especially where things went wrong Dec08/Jan09!

Northman
10-04-2011, 02:14 PM
The reason I know clay's mindset is because I was the same way with Cutler.

Ok, so it really wasnt about a talent issue with Jay you just didnt like him correct? I mean, is that what your assuming is Clay's reasoning as well? I just know i had to go round and round with people who started chest pumping because a 2nd year QB wasnt taking us to the SB compared to a guy who had been in the league for 8-9 years. But talking strictly from a talent perspecitve and circumstances in those cases i just cant see anyone writing Tebow off after 3 games.

Nomad
10-04-2011, 02:22 PM
Ok, so it really wasnt about a talent issue with Jay you just didnt like him correct? I mean, is that what your assuming is Clay's reasoning as well? I just know i had to go round and round with people who started chest pumping because a 2nd year QB wasnt taking us to the SB compared to a guy who had been in the league for 8-9 years. But talking strictly from a talent perspecitve and circumstances in those cases i just cant see anyone writing Tebow off after 3 games.

It's weird how shit like this turns off a person. Jay had the tools and upside but I couldn't see beyond what BDB mentioned. That's why I would never make a good HC or general foreman.

BORDERLINE
10-04-2011, 02:23 PM
EFX is full of excuses at this point. Honestly Josh Freeman sucked bad his first year with the BUCS and he is now coming into his own. He was given a chance to mess up and learn, Tebow will not be granted that opportunity. Orton has 7-8 years in the NFL and he needs practice in the system? total BS excuses from Fox but it doesn't end with him Elway and Sanders are just as guilty.

Let Tebow go Let Orton go and Let Quinn go and move on from this mess. Draft a QB sign one whatever. And if EFX can't right the ship cast there a** off as well and get a real GM. That will not be scared to use the word rebuild since that is what we are doing this year and the next and the next. WE are set to suck for a while. And as long as we keep using Duct tape to cover up these holes instead of replacing the whole damn thing completely we will not be competitive with the elite teams in the NFL.

DenBronx
10-04-2011, 02:24 PM
Im not going to argue it anymore today. Nobody is going to change each others minds. I will say that I believe the Broncos are putting the best QB on the field. He might suck, but he is all we have.

There is absolutley zero benefit to keeping Tebow on the bench if he is the better player. The Broncos are taking it on the chin by the fans, and they are probably doing the right thing.

I hope we trade/cut tebow as soon as possible. He is a cancer to the fans and team.

So by that logic, Tebow is way worse than Orton. Instead of winning 5 or 6 games we will win maybe 3 at the most. That then puts us in position to draft Luck.

Then why would you be mad about that sense none of our QBs will be back?


On the other hand, why don't we just play the kid and find out who's truly better? I think it comes down to a trade that didnt go through, money in Tebows contract, egos and eating crow.

As bad as we are at the position and as passionate our fans are regarding the QB position Kyle Orton sure does seem to get a free pass. Remember we benched Plummer FOR LESS!! One of the QBs with the best winningest percentages in Broncos history. Kyle hasn't even scratched the surface, in fact I would go as far as to say he has the worst winning percentage of any Broncos QB. Yet, he gets a free pass.

Meanwhile, lets just never see what our 1st round pick can do. :coffee:

DenBronx
10-04-2011, 02:29 PM
EFX is full of excuses at this point. Honestly Josh Freeman sucked bad his first year with the BUCS and he is now coming into his own. He was given a chance to mess up and learn, Tebow will not be granted that opportunity. Orton has 7-8 years in the NFL and he needs practice in the system? total BS excuses from Fox but it doesn't end with him Elway and Sanders are just as guilty.

Let Tebow go Let Orton go and Let Quinn go and move on from this mess. Draft a QB sign one whatever. And if EFX can't right the ship cast there a** off as well and get a real GM. That will not be scared to use the word rebuild since that is what we are doing this year and the next and the next. WE are set to suck for a while. And as long as we keep using Duct tape to cover up these holes instead of replacing the whole damn thing completely we will not be competitive with the elite teams in the NFL.

Most rookie QBs do suck their first year. This year was supposed to be Foxs free pass to see what he has. We already know Orton, yet we don't know Tebow. Fox could have just played the kid and decided to go in a differant direction if he didnt do well enough. He is wasting a whole year, he is wasting valuable time on the field for Tebow and he is wasting the fans time by having to watch this pile of crap on Sundays.

DenBronx
10-04-2011, 02:35 PM
The facial expressions and lame press conference comments by Cutler never really bothered me. I dont care what someones face looks like. I care about winning and the future of the Broncos.

I'll take skill 100% of the time over a saint like attitude. Our QBs are not paid to be church members. They are paid to throw the damn ball and throw it well.

That's no knock on Tebow. He's a great guy and very passionate about the game but IMO, he is no Cutler. Could he be better? No one knows. The verdict is still out on him and I think that's why alot of us fans want to see him play. That and the fact the Orton is a hairy sack without balls.

BigDaddyBronco
10-04-2011, 02:38 PM
The facial expressions and lame press conference comments by Cutler never really bothered me. I dont care what someones face looks like. I care about winning and the future of the Broncos.

I'll take skill 100% of the time over a saint like attitude. Our QBs are not paid to be church members. They are paid to throw the damn ball and throw it well.

That's no knock on Tebow. He's a great guy and very passionate about the game but IMO, he is no Cutler. Could he be better? No one knows. The verdict is still out on him and I think that's why alot of us fans want to see him play. That and the fact the Orton is a hairy sack without balls.

Yea, I could get over Cutler's sucky attitude if he won when it mattered. But he really hasn't done that either, so **** him.

claymore
10-04-2011, 02:40 PM
So by that logic, Tebow is way worse than Orton. Instead of winning 5 or 6 games we will win maybe 3 at the most. That then puts us in position to draft Luck.

Then why would you be mad about that sense none of our QBs will be back?


On the other hand, why don't we just play the kid and find out who's truly better? I think it comes down to a trade that didnt go through, money in Tebows contract, egos and eating crow.

As bad as we are at the position and as passionate our fans are regarding the QB position Kyle Orton sure does seem to get a free pass. Remember we benched Plummer FOR LESS!! One of the QBs with the best winningest percentages in Broncos history. Kyle hasn't even scratched the surface, in fact I would go as far as to say he has the worst winning percentage of any Broncos QB. Yet, he gets a free pass.

Meanwhile, lets just never see what our 1st round pick can do. :coffee:

I am behind whatever QB Coach John Fox says earned the starting position. I disagree whole heartedly with starting Tebow just for shits and giggles.

DenBronx
10-04-2011, 02:42 PM
Yea, I could get over Cutler's sucky attitude if he won when it mattered. But he really hasn't done that either, so **** him.

NFCCG last year and so far he isnt losing this year, unlike the loser we currently have.

DenBronx
10-04-2011, 02:44 PM
I am behind whatever QB Coach John Fox says earned the starting position. I disagree whole heartedly with starting Tebow just for shits and giggles.

Since when did Fox become a QB guru? This will be his downfall here in Denver too if he sticks with that mentality.


Orton never earned shit here.

BigDaddyBronco
10-04-2011, 02:47 PM
NFCCG last year and so far he isnt losing this year, unlike the loser we currently have.

Was that the game where Cutler pussed out with the knee strain or the game before when he beat the highly touted Seahawks.

Dude, Orton has better stats than Cutler this year, so far. Cutler is a better QB, but let's not pretend he is a top 10 QB or anything.

vandammage13
10-04-2011, 02:49 PM
I am behind whatever QB Coach John Fox says earned the starting position. I disagree whole heartedly with starting Tebow just for shits and giggles.

It wouldn't be for shits and giggles...It would be for evaluation purposes for next year. You know, long term thinking...

claymore
10-04-2011, 02:49 PM
The reason I know clay's mindset is because I was the same way with Cutler.

When Tebow goes to the Pro bowl I will change my mind.

Since when did Fox become a QB guru? This will be his downfall here in Denver too if he sticks with that mentality.


Orton never earned shit here.

Im hoping he is listening to his OC, and QB coach. Maybe in practice he knows which QB is harder to defend against since he is a Defensive minded coach.

Bottom line, its his job to make the decision. Im sure its based off of something other than spite.

Ravage!!!
10-04-2011, 02:49 PM
Most rookie QBs do suck their first year. This year was supposed to be Foxs free pass to see what he has. We already know Orton, yet we don't know Tebow. Fox could have just played the kid and decided to go in a differant direction if he didnt do well enough. He is wasting a whole year, he is wasting valuable time on the field for Tebow and he is wasting the fans time by having to watch this pile of crap on Sundays.

You are saying "we don't know"... when Fox and co. feels THEY do know. They've watched him, they see him when he can't read a coverage, can't make the right read, and can't throw to the right guy. They see the same thing that Mark Schlereth sees... so when you say "we don't know what we have in Tebow"... you are talking about the fans when the staff is pretty sure they know.

slim
10-04-2011, 02:49 PM
Was that the game where Cutler pussed out with the knee strain or the game before when he beat the highly touted Seahawks.

Dude, Orton has better stats than Cutler this year, so far. Cutler is a better QB, but let's not pretend he is a top 10 QB or anything.

I can't decide who is more annoying...Cutler fan bois or Tebow fan bois.

claymore
10-04-2011, 02:50 PM
It wouldn't be for shits and giggles...It would be for evaluation purposes for next year. You know, long term thinking...

Thats what practice is for.

Northman
10-04-2011, 02:50 PM
Was that the game where Cutler pussed out with the knee strain or the game before when he beat the highly touted Seahawks.

Dude, Orton has better stats than Cutler this year, so far. Cutler is a better QB, but let's not pretend he is a top 10 QB or anything.

He also still has one of if not the worst Oline in the league. But, going into his 6th year he needs to play better overall. At least from a QB standpoint. For me, he is still on that ledge of either being a really good QB or a really mediocre one.

slim
10-04-2011, 02:52 PM
You are saying "we don't know"... when Fox and co. feels THEY do know. They've watched him, they see him when he can't read a coverage, can't make the right read, and can't throw to the right guy. They see the same thing that Mark Schlereth sees... so when you say "we don't know what we have in Tebow"... you are talking about the fans when the staff is pretty sure they know.

Pure speculation.

Please explain to me why they were eager to trade Orton then?

Were they wrong in their assessment of Tebow then, or are they wrong in their assessment of him now? Which is it?

vandammage13
10-04-2011, 02:52 PM
You are saying "we don't know"... when Fox and co. feels THEY do know. They've watched him, they see him when he can't read a coverage, can't make the right read, and can't throw to the right guy. They see the same thing that Mark Schlereth sees... so when you say "we don't know what we have in Tebow"... you are talking about the fans when the staff is pretty sure they know.

And how good has Orton been making reads? A game manager that somehow leads the league in TO's. And we're talking about a league that has 3 rookie QB's starting this year.

As bad as Tebow might be, I honestly don't see him doing any worse than what Kyle has done.

DenBronx
10-04-2011, 02:53 PM
Was that the game where Cutler pussed out with the knee strain or the game before when he beat the highly touted Seahawks.

Dude, Orton has better stats than Cutler this year, so far. Cutler is a better QB, but let's not pretend he is a top 10 QB or anything.

You must be talking about the same game he injured his MCL and tried to go back in twice that game only to be pulled by his coaches? Yeah that's the game.

vandammage13
10-04-2011, 02:53 PM
Thats what practice is for.

Or a lost season...

Backups don't get many reps to be evaluated on in regular season practices.

SOCALORADO.
10-04-2011, 02:54 PM
Since when did Fox become a QB guru? This will be his downfall here in Denver too if he sticks with that mentality.


Orton never earned shit here.

I think the reason that the FO isnt starting TT, and its becoming obvious, is that TT simply cant run a basic offense.
He just cant guys. Sorry, but thats the only logical conclusion.
He is terrible from under center, and he cant operate the offense proficiently.
Now look, i know theres going to be a ton of floridians who will argue that those last 3 games he was awsome. Or that the DEN FO needs to switch to a run and shoot offense, or that in preseason he actually made 4 plays form under center, and....
Sorry guys. I dont think the FO cares about those examples.

By the way, i dont think anyone here thinks Orton is good.
Clay like myself just understands that DEN just has no talent at the QB position, and if thats the decision of the FO, then it is what it is.

Northman
10-04-2011, 02:54 PM
You are saying "we don't know"... when Fox and co. feels THEY do know. They've watched him, they see him when he can't read a coverage, can't make the right read, and can't throw to the right guy. They see the same thing that Mark Schlereth sees... so when you say "we don't know what we have in Tebow"... you are talking about the fans when the staff is pretty sure they know.

Well, do they know Rav? They cant seem to figure out if we are contenders this year or rebuilding. They keep flip flopping so can ANYONE trust what they are saying right now? :lol:

slim
10-04-2011, 02:55 PM
How about those that want to insult those that are fans of a player? I find those bois to be EXTREMELY annoying.

How about people with exclamation marks in their user name?

Where do they fall on the annoyance scale?

BigDaddyBronco
10-04-2011, 02:56 PM
You must be talking about the same game he injured his MCL and tried to go back in twice that game only to be pulled by his coaches? Yeah that's the game.

Oh, I just remember Caleb Hanie going in there in the second half and playing better than Cutler. Then I remember Cutler and his destroyed knee going out and drinking the night after the game. Good riddance.

SOCALORADO.
10-04-2011, 02:56 PM
Or a lost season...

Backups don't get many reps to be evaluated on in regular season practices.


What do you think will happen. Seriously. By seasons end.

slim
10-04-2011, 02:56 PM
I think the reason that the FO isnt starting TT, and its becoming obvious, is that TT simply cant run a basic offense.
He just cant guys. Sorry, but thats the only logical conclusion.
He is terrible from under center, and he cant operate the offense proficiently.
Now look, i know theres going to be a ton of floridians who will argue that those last 3 games he was awsome. Or that the DEN FO needs to switch to a run and shoot offense, or that in preseason he actually made 4 plays form under center, and....
Sorry guys. I dont think the FO cares about those examples.

By the way, i dont think anyone here thinks Orton is good.
Clay like myself just understands that DEN just has no talent at the QB position, and if thats the decision of the FO, then it is what it is.

The offense put up 25 points a game with TT as the starting QB last year. I think he can run a basic offense just fine.

SOCALORADO.
10-04-2011, 02:59 PM
The offense put up 25 points a game with TT as the starting QB last year. I think he can run a basic offense just fine.

I know you think that! :lol:
I dont think from what i am seeing from the FO that THEY think that those examples are relevant. I honestly dont think they care.
I think Elway has a plan, its been approved by Bowlen, and hes implementing that plan. And that plan doesnt include TT.

DenBronx
10-04-2011, 03:00 PM
You are saying "we don't know"... when Fox and co. feels THEY do know. They've watched him, they see him when he can't read a coverage, can't make the right read, and can't throw to the right guy. They see the same thing that Mark Schlereth sees... so when you say "we don't know what we have in Tebow"... you are talking about the fans when the staff is pretty sure they know.



As a fan I DO KNOW that Orton can't put this team on his back and win games. I DO KNOW he throws a perfect pick 6 when the game is on the line. I DO KNOW he sucks in the redzone. I DO KNOW he cant do shit when the pocket starts to collapse and I DO KNOW his record here in Denver is balls.


I see something different when Tebow comes in the game. Energy, able to make plays with his arm and feet, putting hope in the huddle and actually executing. He doesn't have the prettiest throw but neither did Steve Young.

vandammage13
10-04-2011, 03:02 PM
What do you think will happen. Seriously. By seasons end.

I think Tebow's gonna get his shot, but it might come too late in the year before they make the change.

I see Tebow getting a handful of starts (maybe 5 games) producing mixed results.

We will see potential, some great plays, but also see a guy who is raw and inexperienced.

At season's end, there will still be question marks on Tebow because the evaluation process will start too late in the year due to Fox's failure to recognize what this season is.

We will be back to where we were at last season's end...Those who saw great potential from Tebow, and those who will dismiss the last 5 games because they were meaningless and not a big enough sample.

Then going into the draft we still won't know for sure if #15 can be the QB of the future.

slim
10-04-2011, 03:03 PM
I know you think that! :lol:
I dont think from what i am seeing from the FO that THEY think that those examples are relevant. I honestly dont think they care.
I think Elway has a plan, its been approved by Bowlen, and hes implementing that plan. And that plan doesnt include TT.

Then why did they try to trade Orton?

Also, why did they just hand TT a $6 million bonus?

I mean, since you can obviously read their minds, I would really like to know their thought process on these things.

DenBronx
10-04-2011, 03:05 PM
Oh, I just remember Caleb Hanie going in there in the second half and playing better than Cutler. Then I remember Cutler and his destroyed knee going out and drinking the night after the game. Good riddance.

Yeah, you must be thinking of the garbage time stats Hanie got after they got hammered by the SB champions.

You know, the same team that just put up a 50 burger last week on us? What in the hell did Orton do? Throw it the other way?

Just wish #8s knee would have got snapped so we could end all of this controversy.

SOCALORADO.
10-04-2011, 03:08 PM
Then why did they try to trade Orton?

Also, why did they just hand TT a $6 million bonus?

I mean, since you can obviously read their minds, I would really like to know their thought process on these things.

Its just my opinion. (Except for Elway drafting LUCK!) :lol:
I am just witnessing the same things you are, and giving my opinion on the matters.
And Vandammage is very cloes to where i am.
Tebow will be given a couple charity starts at seasons end, and he will have mixed results, DEN will still lose, and then 2 QBs will be dropped. TT traded. The starts wont really hurt Tebow, but they wont really help him either.
A QB will be drafted very high, and DEN will move into the next phase of its rebuild. A veteran QB will be brought in as well.
I just think that their minds are set on this matter, and thats why they are the way they are in Dove Valley.

We all go through this every week. I am done. You know my position on this issue.

BigDaddyBronco
10-04-2011, 03:09 PM
Yeah, you must be thinking of the garbage time stats Hanie got after they got hammered by the SB champions.

You know, the same team that just put up a 50 burger last week on us? What in the hell did Orton do? Throw it the other way?

Just wish #8s knee would have got snapped so we could end all of this controversy.

I'm not defending Orton, it's not an comparision. I'll be glad when he is gone as well. The only QB I have liked since Elway was Plummer. All he did was win.

I would like to see if Tebow can be a Plummer or not. If not, let's try again.

And I don't wish harm on Orton, I just want him gone.

Ravage!!!
10-04-2011, 03:12 PM
Oh, I just remember Caleb Hanie going in there in the second half and playing better than Cutler. Then I remember Cutler and his destroyed knee going out and drinking the night after the game. Good riddance.

You mean the same guy that played against a defense that ADMITTED they just sat back and did nothing once Hanie came into the game?

As far as the "destroyed" knee that you are complaining about.. you do realize that Brady missed his very first playoff game with the same injury. Left the game in the early second quarter and couldn't come back into the game because it was too hurt. Bledsoe had to come in and win the game for the Patriots.... only to find that Brady and his "hurt knee" were well enough to play the very next week.

Its not like injuries in games don't happen to the very best of them.

BORDERLINE
10-04-2011, 03:12 PM
I think the reason that the FO isnt starting TT, and its becoming obvious, is that TT simply cant run a basic offense.
He just cant guys. Sorry, but thats the only logical conclusion.
He is terrible from under center, and he cant operate the offense proficiently.
Now look, i know theres going to be a ton of floridians who will argue that those last 3 games he was awsome. Or that the DEN FO needs to switch to a run and shoot offense, or that in preseason he actually made 4 plays form under center, and....
Sorry guys. I dont think the FO cares about those examples.

By the way, i dont think anyone here thinks Orton is good.
Clay like myself just understands that DEN just has no talent at the QB position, and if thats the decision of the FO, then it is what it is.

Enough with the whole Tebow can't run the basic offense. We all know he is not a pocket passer. he is no Brady, Manning or Orton for that matter. Plays need to be called to utilize his skill set. Damn I swear who else doesn't see this. Tebow can throw the ball, maybe not as skillfully as Rodgers or Brees but he can chuck it.

Fox in my opinion will not mold his offense to a skill set of any player and that's where he is doing a disservice to the Broncos Organization. He was suppose to try it this year and if all we won was 4 games who could have blamed him. Even tough one year to judge a young QB is harsh and most of the fans agreed. Tebow was not his pick and therefore not married with it. But Orton was his decision and if we only win 4 games in a year where we are not rebuilding Fox is setting this team back one whole year. And if fans don't voice that displeasure it will continue to happen.

Ravage!!!
10-04-2011, 03:13 PM
As a fan I DO KNOW that Orton can't put this team on his back and win games. I DO KNOW he throws a perfect pick 6 when the game is on the line. I DO KNOW he sucks in the redzone. I DO KNOW he cant do shit when the pocket starts to collapse and I DO KNOW his record here in Denver is balls.


I see something different when Tebow comes in the game. Energy, able to make plays with his arm and feet, putting hope in the huddle and actually executing. He doesn't have the prettiest throw but neither did Steve Young.

Thats fine... but when you say "we need to evaluate Tebow".. you arent' saying that the coaches need to evaluate Tebow becaue THEY already have. You want Tebow in so YOU can evaluate Tebow, and are frustrated because the coaches won't allow YOU time to evaluate Tebow on the field. It has nothing to do with the coaching staff "needing" to evaluate TT....for he's already been evaluated by them.

Ravage!!!
10-04-2011, 03:15 PM
He was suppose to try it this year and if all we won was 4 games who could have blamed him.

Wait.. what do you mean he was "supposed" to do this?

slim
10-04-2011, 03:16 PM
Its just my opinion. (Except for Elway drafting LUCK!) :lol:
I am just witnessing the same things you are, and giving my opinion on the matters.
And Vandammage is very cloes to where i am.
Tebow will be given a couple charity starts at seasons end, and he will have mixed results, DEN will still lose, and then 2 QBs will be dropped. TT traded. The starts wont really hurt Tebow, but they wont really help him either.
A QB will be drafted very high, and DEN will move into the next phase of its rebuild. A veteran QB will be brought in as well.
I just think that their minds are set on this matter, and thats why they are the way they are in Dove Valley.

We all go through this every week. I am done. You know my position on this issue.

I think that is what will happen too...just hoping they are smarter than that.

Poet
10-04-2011, 03:17 PM
Bronco Nation - Fans divided.

DenBronx
10-04-2011, 03:17 PM
Thats fine... but when you say "we need to evaluate Tebow".. you arent' saying that the coaches need to evaluate Tebow becaue THEY already have. You want Tebow in so YOU can evaluate Tebow, and are frustrated because the coaches won't allow YOU time to evaluate Tebow on the field. It has nothing to do with the coaching staff "needing" to evaluate TT....for he's already been evaluated by them.

Where? In practice?


They must not be evaluating Sundays then.

DenBronx
10-04-2011, 03:18 PM
Bronco Nation - Fans divided.

Nothing new. It's been like that since Brian Griese.


Very frustrating though. I wish we would just trade them all at this point.

DenBronx
10-04-2011, 03:23 PM
I'm not defending Orton, it's not an comparision. I'll be glad when he is gone as well. The only QB I have liked since Elway was Plummer. All he did was win.

I would like to see if Tebow can be a Plummer or not. If not, let's try again.

And I don't wish harm on Orton, I just want him gone.

Ok, that was harsh but I do just want him gone.

I too liked Plummer, alot! He ran the WCO very good. He had a mean bootleg and a decent arm. Very mobile for a QB and that went well with the ZBS.

I think Tebow would fit best in a WCO and so that's why I think now that Dennison might have been a better choice for HC or maybe Kyle Shanahan when the time is right.

slim
10-04-2011, 03:30 PM
Thats fine... but when you say "we need to evaluate Tebow".. you arent' saying that the coaches need to evaluate Tebow becaue THEY already have. You want Tebow in so YOU can evaluate Tebow, and are frustrated because the coaches won't allow YOU time to evaluate Tebow on the field. It has nothing to do with the coaching staff "needing" to evaluate TT....for he's already been evaluated by them.

I will ask again.

They evaluated his game tape and thought he showed some promise (they were willing to trade Orton).

The evaluated him at practice and decided he couldn't play.

Which evaluation is right? It seems that maybe they are not really all that sure, either.

BeefStew25
10-04-2011, 03:35 PM
I will ask again.

They evaluated his game tape and thought he showed some promise (they were willing to trade Orton).

The evaluated him at practice and decided he couldn't play.

Which evaluation is right? It seems that maybe they are not really all that sure, either.

I think they said, "If we can get good value for Horton, lets do it. If not, no worries."

Sandy is right though. I think all these guys are short timers.

Nomad
10-04-2011, 03:35 PM
I will ask again.

They evaluated his game tape and thought he showed some promise (they were willing to trade Orton).

The evaluated him at practice and decided he couldn't play.

Which evaluation is right? It seems that maybe they are not really all that sure, either.

Also, seeing how quick Fox is to dismiss Tebow in a game after one play perhaps they're doing the same in practice......the ol' 'set up to fail' approach.

SOCAL could be right.....the FO has no desire to give the kid his shot regardless how much Orton (the 7 yr veteran with 2+ yrs of this system under his belt) SUCKS!

slim
10-04-2011, 03:36 PM
I think they said, "If we can get good value for Horton, lets do it. If not, no worries."

Sandy is right though. I think all these guys are short timers.

Yeah, I think a major turnover is on the way. I wonder how many players they can realistically replace in one offseason.

Ravage!!!
10-04-2011, 03:37 PM
I will ask again.

They evaluated his game tape and thought he showed some promise (they were willing to trade Orton).

The evaluated him at practice and decided he couldn't play.

Which evaluation is right? It seems that maybe they are not really all that sure, either.

It would seem pretty apparent that seeing Tebow live proved to them that he was much farther behind than they thought. The games tapes from last year did NOT do him justice if you listen to anyone that breaks down the game tapes. Those games proved that Tebow was NOT ready. I don't think you can take ANYTHING away from the "tried" trade. THat may have been nothing more then the Broncos trying to get something for nothing while they had a small window of a chance. They couldn't, so they were able/willing to fall back with what they had.

There has NEVER been any indication that the Broncos felt Tebow was better than Orton.

BigDaddyBronco
10-04-2011, 03:40 PM
Ok, that was harsh but I do just want him gone.

I too liked Plummer, alot! He ran the WCO very good. He had a mean bootleg and a decent arm. Very mobile for a QB and that went well with the ZBS.

I think Tebow would fit best in a WCO and so that's why I think now that Dennison might have been a better choice for HC or maybe Kyle Shanahan when the time is right.

I was hoping Kubiak would have been fired last year and we could of had him and Dennison, but oh well.

BeefStew25
10-04-2011, 03:40 PM
Yeah, I think a major turnover is on the way. I wonder how many players they can realistically replace in one offseason.

As fast as they can DRAFT good replacements in my hope.

Free agency is a myth.

Quick, someone tell me the Eagles record.

slim
10-04-2011, 03:49 PM
It would seem pretty apparent that seeing Tebow live proved to them that he was much farther behind than they thought. The games tapes from last year did NOT do him justice if you listen to anyone that breaks down the game tapes. Those games proved that Tebow was NOT ready. I don't think you can take ANYTHING away from the "tried" trade. THat may have been nothing more then the Broncos trying to get something for nothing while they had a small window of a chance. They couldn't, so they were able/willing to fall back with what they had.

There has NEVER been any indication that the Broncos felt Tebow was better than Orton.

I'm not sure I can buy into this. If they truly believed that Tebow was incapable of even running a basic offense, there is no way they would have contemplated trading Orton. And they certainly wouldn't have given TT that $6 million bonus.

I mean, if this was their line of thinking why not apply it to all positions, instead of just QB.....we have Perrish Cox on the roster and even though he can't play, maybe we should go ahead and trade Champ simply because Champ has trade value? Hell, let's trade all of our starters, especially if we don't think their backup can play!

Ravage!!!
10-04-2011, 05:21 PM
I'm not sure I can buy into this. If they truly believed that Tebow was incapable of even running a basic offense, there is no way they would have contemplated trading Orton. And they certainly wouldn't have given TT that $6 million bonus.

I mean, if this was their line of thinking why not apply it to all positions, instead of just QB.....we have Perrish Cox on the roster and even though he can't play, maybe we should go ahead and trade Champ simply because Champ has trade value? Hell, let's trade all of our starters, especially if we don't think their backup can play!

I'm confused as to where you are thinking. What would you have them do, simply release Tebow?? :confused: that makes no sense. Tebow HAS trade value. His name alone give him value. We've seen players get traded back and forth across the NFL that don't have the name recognition that Tebow has. A team that wants to put butts in the seats, may simply pay to have that name alone. SO paying Tebow the bonus is nothing.

Your example doesn't really make sense, because Champ is obviously good. Orton isn't going to be on the team next year, so why woudn't they try to trade him while they could get something? Seems to be the logical move considering the situation.

Not to mention, we still had Quinn as well as Tebow.

I think you guys are looking WAYyyyyyy too much into the trade scenario as being some kind of proof that the coaches felt comfortable with TT, when I think it was just an opportunity that they explored. They didn't exactly go out of their way, and pulled back pretty quickly on the scenario once TT showed what he had in camps.

Listen to anyone that breaks down game tape and evaluates game film, and they don't have good things to say about Tebow's three games. I get that the fans were excited because it wasn't Orton, but from a professional standpoint... it was NOT good. Jaws doesn't say 'bad' things about people...but he was VERY VERY adamant about Orton starting for the ENTIRE year if he was on the roster (barring injury). He didn't make that statement because he wanted to put down Tim, but because he was surprised about how little Tebow recognized from a QB'ing standpoint.

Tebow has value on several levels for trade. He has value for being on the roster, even if its obvious to the staff that he NEEDs to sit a while.

dogfish
10-04-2011, 05:25 PM
I dont support any of our QB's.

please, we all know you've got a ragin' stiffy for brady quinn. . .


:welcome:


i'd also like to point out that you guys talked about tebow for sixteen pages here just today. . . in this thread. . .


man, this franchise is f'ed up. . . :drinking:

slim
10-04-2011, 05:34 PM
I'm confused as to where you are thinking. What would you have them do, simply release Tebow?? :confused: that makes no sense. Tebow HAS trade value. His name alone give him value. We've seen players get traded back and forth across the NFL that don't have the name recognition that Tebow has. A team that wants to put butts in the seats, may simply pay to have that name alone. SO paying Tebow the bonus is nothing.

If they have determined that he can't play, then yes, they should have traded him or cut him. That is the way FO should operate. I have never heard of a FO giving out a $6 million bonus to a player they had absolutely no faith in.


Your example doesn't really make sense, because Champ is obviously good. Orton isn't going to be on the team next year, so why woudn't they try to trade him while they could get something? Seems to be the logical move considering the situation.

Exactly.


I think you guys are looking WAYyyyyyy too much into the trade scenario as being some kind of proof that the coaches felt comfortable with TT, when I think it was just an opportunity that they explored. They didn't exactly go out of their way, and pulled back pretty quickly on the scenario once TT showed what he had in camps.

Miami backed out of the trade, not Denver.


Listen to anyone that breaks down game tape and evaluates game film, and they don't have good things to say about Tebow's three games. I get that the fans were excited because it wasn't Orton, but from a professional standpoint... it was NOT good. Jaws doesn't say 'bad' things about people...but he was VERY VERY adamant about Orton starting for the ENTIRE year if he was on the roster (barring injury). He didn't make that statement because he wanted to put down Tim, but because he was surprised about how little Tebow recognized from a QB'ing standpoint.

Tebow has value on several levels for trade. He has value for being on the roster, even if its obvious to the staff that he NEEDs to sit a while.

You are talking in circles. First you say Tebow has trade value, then you tell me that everyone that "understands football and breaks down the games" already knows that he can't play. Which is it?


The bottom line is, we are rebuilding (and Orton won't be here next year), there is no reason for him to play....none. How does starting Orton benefit this franchise? No one has been able to answer that question. There is no short-term or long-term benefit. It is senseless.

Play the kids (all of them) and see how they perform in game situations. That is the only scenario that makes sense.

BroncoStud
10-04-2011, 05:39 PM
Yes, by all means guys, let's play Orton this year and give him a ton of experience in John Fox's new "system" so he can then take said experience with him in free agency to a new team.

Sounds like a winning formula to me! :rolleyes:

Ravage!!!
10-04-2011, 06:51 PM
If they have determined that he can't play, then yes, they should have traded him or cut him. That is the way FO should operate. I have never heard of a FO giving out a $6 million bonus to a player they had absolutely no faith in.
Keeping a player and having "no faith in" are two different things. Keeping a player that has value is still yet another thing. Simply dropping Tebow would have been stupid BECAUSE he still has value. Simply "not having faith" in the guy to start over your veteran is NOT enough reason to cut him.


Exactly.
Exactly. So why not try to trade him when there is a small opening. Plus, if you truly think that Denver couldn't have made that trade if they really wanted to, you are covering your eyes. Orton didn't want to pay for less money than he's guaranteed right now, and rightfully so...but Denver could have settled that if they REALLY wanted Orton to go.


Miami backed out of the trade, not Denver.
Read above.


You are talking in circles. First you say Tebow has trade value, then you tell me that everyone that "understands football and breaks down the games" already knows that he can't play. Which is it?
Come on Slim, I know you are better than this. Tebow has value on name alone. His name causes stir and puts your name in the headlines. His name puts butts in the seats and your teams jerseys out the door. McDaniels drafted him because he felt he could "teach him" to play in his system....do you not think that someone else could have that same feeling and feel there is value in having Tebow on the team? How many times have we seen crappy players around the NFL get traded simply because the new team feels that maybe a new "surroundings" could help. Its really not hard to see that Tebow has value despite the fact that people are not impressed with the play that he's shown.


The bottom line is, we are rebuilding (and Orton won't be here next year), there is no reason for him to play....none. How does starting Orton benefit this franchise? No one has been able to answer that question. There is no short-term or long-term benefit. It is senseless.


I would rather play Tebow as well. But the coaches certainly don't seem to feel that they can purely throw away a season simply because the fans are bored. Not going to happen until we are eliminated. We are actually still in the contention to win this division. Now don't mistake that statement for one that states I believe we WILL win the division,because I don't think we have a chance in hell. But I don't WANT a coach that simply admits defeat and gives up. I don't want ANY player on the roster that wants that. I don't want ANYONE in the locker room that WANTS the coach to put a lesser player on the field purely so we can "see" what happens. Not if there is that big of a difference in whats being show. Nope. Don't give me the quitter as a coach. I'll leave that for the fans.

DenBronx
10-04-2011, 07:01 PM
Yes, by all means guys, let's play Orton this year and give him a ton of experience in John Fox's new "system" so he can then take said experience with him in free agency to a new team.

Sounds like a winning formula to me! :rolleyes:

Makes tons of sense doesnt it?


I don't get it either. This season is basically a waste.

DenBronx
10-04-2011, 07:04 PM
Ortons a legend in his own mind thinking he deserved a Tom Brady contract.


That's the only reason the trade fell through. Now his fat ass is in Denver where none of the fans want him anyway. What a joke.

BORDERLINE
10-04-2011, 07:18 PM
Wait.. what do you mean he was "supposed" to do this?

Did you really ask that. OK..

It was almost for certain that Tebow would have started this year. From Foxy making all his "I want a gamer" comments about the QB position and with the whole Orton to Miami trade.

No one was gonna demand he get fired for trotting out Tebow and having Tim fail as a starting QB. EFX sometime between the failed trade and first pre-season game decided we could actually win right now with the players we have.

OK a quarter of the season into the books and that is not happening. I would love to win right now with Orton, Quinn or Tebow damn i don't care if it's with Weber as long as we win. Next year we are gonna be in the same S*** if Tebow does not get game time and i'm not just saying last five games and make a quick decision on his future here.

I don't see how any Broncos fan can say otherwise. You watched the last three games last year with a RB coach as the head honcho and we did well.

Most analyst make comments about what they read on the stat sheet. See the highlights and don't actually see the game tape. Did you see the last 3 games of last year? and can you honestly say we are better of with Orton?

jhildebrand
10-04-2011, 08:39 PM
Good point jh, I like the fool's gold line, but they still have to play him or trade him for high value. If they do neither they will be drawn and quatered by the fans and media.

I just don't know, but I'd sure as Hell like to find out if he can translate that college mojo to the big league, a lot of players like him have and a lot have failed. He sure won a lot though, I mean really a lot.

I don't know of one local media person who is fully pro tebow at this point. Cecil Lammy maybe. The media will give EFX a complete free pass on Tebow because it was McD's doing.

I think you play the kid. But I truly think they KNOW he can win ugly, the fanatics will only grow in number and volume, and then there hands would really be tied. They aren't dummies! They saw first hand, Elway living in Denver, what moving Cutler did for McDaniels.

I don't think for one moment they don't think the kid could play at all. If they did, they would just cut his ass! They wouldn't have paid him a bonus. In fact, he would have been on the trading block not Orton.

DenBronx
10-04-2011, 09:10 PM
So why was Orton on the trading block?


The front office has never really been clear about that.


Why did they initially try and trade him? Was it because they wanted to sell high? Or was it because they thought he wasn't the answer?

chazoe60
10-04-2011, 09:44 PM
I think the backlash toward Fox is that people fear he will stick with Orton past this season. I honestly think a majority of Bronco fans, myself included, are terrified that Fox will convince Elway that Orton is the future and we'll be stuck watching this absolute failure of a QB for another 5 years.

It's not a Tebow thing as much as it is an anti-Orton thing IMO. Fans feel like we can plainly see how absolutely terrible Orton is so whay can't these other people see it?

MOtorboat
10-04-2011, 09:53 PM
http://www.derok.net/images/football%20archives/jake%20delhomme.jpg

TXBRONC
10-04-2011, 10:01 PM
http://www.derok.net/images/football%20archives/jake%20delhomme.jpg

Put a beard on his face and bottle of Jack in his right hand and no one would be able tell the difference between Orton and Delhomme.

MOtorboat
10-04-2011, 10:14 PM
Put a beard on his face and bottle of Jack in his right hand and no one would be able tell the difference between Orton and Delhomme.

They are similar. I know I've sarcastically posted his picture from time to time, but the comparison is uncannily apt, however, where Orton is not Delhomme is where Delhomme found ways to win games.

He had a .588 winning percentage...

TXBRONC
10-04-2011, 10:30 PM
They are similar. I know I've sarcastically posted his picture from time to time, but the comparison is uncannily apt, however, where Orton is not Delhomme is where Delhomme found ways to win games.

He had a .588 winning percentage...

Exactly. Delhomme has actually lead a team to the playoffs and had some success. That has never happened in Orton's career.

dogfish
10-04-2011, 10:36 PM
I would rather play Tebow as well. But the coaches certainly don't seem to feel that they can purely throw away a season simply because the fans are bored.

so how is it any better to purely throw away the season with orton?

:noidea:


that's what everyone is trying to figure out here. . . . how are we better off throwing the season away with zero to show for it than throwing it away while young guys get invaluable live game reps towards their development?

MOtorboat
10-04-2011, 10:44 PM
so how is it any better to purely throw away the season with orton?

:noidea:


that's what everyone is trying to figure out here. . . . how are we better off throwing the season away with zero to show for it than throwing it away while young guys get invaluable live game reps towards their development?

I stated this before and was, essentially ignored...

What has this organization lacked since the loss in the AFC Championship in January of 2006? Consistency.

Fox is making a point, and personally, I like it. If you want to play, you better damn well outperform the players in front of you in practice. If not, too bad, sit your ass on the bench.

I hope he doesn't cave.

That said...I hate the "Tebow package" idea and either want him to play quarterback full time or for him to not play at all.

A consistent philosophy team-wide, dammit.