Tned’s Take: It’s time to end the mixed messages from Dove valley

[Tned]

Tned’s Take: It’s time to end the mixed messages from Dove valley

Is it any surprise that Broncos fans are confused and frustrated?

On the one hand we hear that it’s about “the best chance to win” this season, but on the other hand John Fox says “Let’s not lose touch with reality here; this is a 4-12 football team under a new staff. We’re four games into it. We’re 1-3, that’s the reality, and that’s where we are.”

So, are the Broncos a team capable of winning now, which means focusing on the players and moves that give them “the best chance to win” this season, or are they a team that is, dare I use the forbidden word, rebuilding?

It seems the Broncos want to have it both ways. Playing an aging veteran safety in pass coverage, when his years of running with speedy wide receivers are well behind him, and sticking with a starting quarterback who is 1-3 this season and has only managed six wins in his last 25 starts, who also happens to be in the final year of his contract and has reportedly asked for a trade, and the Broncos reportedly tried and failed to trade him. Then again, fans are supposed to remember that the Broncos are a “4-12 team” and therefore should have tempered expectations.

There is a very clear message coming from Dove Valley that fans need to be patient, because the team is rebuilding, even if as John Elway says, they don’t want to use that word. John Fox said today that “I don't think anybody in their right mind thought it would happen for us overnight” and that “we had one draft class. We didn’t go out and get a lot of big-name free agents, so I look at our draft class after four games, and I think we have some guys that are going to help us moving forward. I can’t define that yet, because we’re only four games into a 16-game schedule, but I’ve been encourage by how a lot of those guys have played.”

Yet at the same time, Broncos fans have heard over and over again that the Broncos are playing the players that “give them the best chance to win” this week. John Fox said that “I think everybody wants it now. It’s in everything. I can understand, but we want to win now, too. I don’t blame them [the fans]. There’s a certain element of that to everybody in this building, too. Like I’ve said, we’re done with the first quarter, and we have three quarters to go.”

So, is there any wonder that fans are confused? The mixed message from Dove Valley is that they are putting a team on the field to win this season, but when the Broncos start 1-3, it’s because the Broncos are rebuilding. When asked about starting young players to evaluate them for the future, the answer is they are only one quarter through the season and the Broncos are playing the players that give the team the best chance to win this season.

Confused yet?

Most fans certainly are confused about what goals the Broncos have for this season and it would be hard to blame them for being confused by the mixed messages.

Sunday’s game against San Diego could go a long way towards clarifying the Broncos season. Win, and John Fox will remind the fans and media that the Broncos are only one game out of the division lead, and of course a playoff spot. Lose, and the Broncos are 1-4 with a very tough schedule remaining. As John Fox reminded fans, they will be a 4-12 team (last year’s record) that will have fallen to 1-4 this season. At 1-4, with no reasonable expectations of winning the division and making the playoffs, can the Broncos front office maintain the charade that their goal is to make the playoffs and therefore are starting the players that give them the “best chance to win”?

John Elway said they are evaluating every player, and the team overall, every week – on a week by week basis. That every week he has in mind the balancing act between winning now and preparing the team for the future.

At this point, after enduring 23 losses in the last 30 games, Broncos fans aren’t expecting miracles. They aren’t expecting the Broncos to make a trip to Indianapolis in February of next year to compete for the Lombardi trophy. However, what they are expecting is the transparency that this new front office, that Broncos legend John Elway, promised them.

It’s time to put an end to the mixed messages. If the goal is truly to make the playoffs this year, then make that clear to fans and stop using rebuilding – even if the “R” word is never uttered at Dove Valley – as an excuse for the poor start. If on the other, the team truly is rebuilding, then use the remainder of this season for the one thing it can actually accomplish, and that is to evaluate the young players on the team to see if they are long term answers, so the team knows what will need to be addressed in the 2012 draft and free agency.

Broncos fans have endured a stretch of losing and turmoil that most thought could never happen to the Broncos organization. Those fans have stuck by the team. Most of those fans will continue to stick by the team. However, that loyalty should not be a one way street. The Broncos need to do something that is not the norm in today’s NFL and that is to be honest with their fans that have endured so much in such a short period of time.

It’s time to stop the mixed messages and tell fans whether the team is a playoff contender or rebuilding for the future, and then actually use the remainder of the season to achieve whatever truly is the Broncos goal for 2011.

The team owes their loyal fans that much.

[SoCalImport]

I'm happy to watch my team play each and every week. Win or lose. I have however had to detach myself from being too emotionally invested in what happens this year as we are OBVIOUSLY rebuilding.
if they don't like what they see in Tebow and Orton can't win, then like me could EFX be looking to next year already? Keep pushing Orton out there is possibly the best way to get us the highest pick possible afterall.

[Krugan]

If the mindset is truly "the best chance to win", but the desire is to pick from 1 to 3, then trotting Orton out there every week is not what that should be doing.(assuming he gives the best chance to win)

Good take Tned, thanks for the brain pain:)

[Tned]

If the mindset is truly "the best chance to win", but the desire is to pick from 1 to 3, then trotting Orton out there every week is not what that should be doing.(assuming he gives the best chance to win)

Good take Tned, thanks for the brain pain:)

Brought to you by the twisted mind of Tned...

[arapaho2]

I'm happy to watch my team play each and every week. Win or lose. I have however had to detach myself from being too emotionally invested in what happens this year as we are OBVIOUSLY rebuilding.
if they don't like what they see in Tebow and Orton can't win, then like me could EFX be looking to next year already? Keep pushing Orton out there is possibly the best way to get us the highest pick possible afterall.

Playing orton does give us the b est chance to lose....yes …but don't the office owe the fans the best they can put on the field...I'd be happy to play tebow and lose honestly...then we knowwhat we need in April....but this bullshit of the "best chance to win" is getting old....at least tebow givesr us a fighting chance.....there's an old Indian saying...."I'd rather die on my feet; fighting...then live on my knees"...that's basically what were doing with orton...living on our knees

[BRONCO FAN SINCE 84]

TOTALLY AGREE BECAUSE THE DENVER BRONCOS ARE MY TEAM! BUT WE HAVE BECOME IRRELEVANT ON THE NATIONAL LANDSCAPE OTHER THEN TIM TEBOW!:salute:

[Npba900]

Experienced veteran fans can read between the tea leaves. This Franchise ain't going nowhere until it drafts a Franchise QB in the 2012 draft! Of course somewhere in the league rules you are not allowed to tank the season just to improve your draft position in the first round. However, with the 2011 Broncos with key injuries to starters, lack of depth etc., the season looks as though Denver will be lucky to win 4-5 games.

Now of course the "Tebow-Thing" has ended in disaster for 2011. Tebow came into Training Camp and performed horrendously and his rawness, mechanical throwing issues, footwork issues couldn't have come at the worst time in his young career. It has given EFX the excuse in the 2012 draft to select a QB that they LIKE vs dealing with McD's cluster F*ck of a draft pick in the first round known as Project Tebow.

The Broncos fans must come to terms with the new reality. The Broncos are in their 2nd Rebuilding period in 2 years. The NFL is a QB driven league and if NFL teams are going to remain competitive, win their division, conference Championships, SB appearances, and SB victories.......it all starts with drafting and NFL ready college QB who has excelled in a Pro Style offense while in College!

[Traveler]

Experienced veteran fans can read between the tea leaves. This Franchise ain't going nowhere until it drafts a Franchise QB in the 2012 draft! Of course somewhere in the league rules you are not allowed to tank the season just to improve your draft position in the first round. However, with the 2011 Broncos with key injuries to starters, lack of depth etc., the season looks as though Denver will be lucky to win 4-5 games.

Now of course the "Tebow-Thing" has ended in disaster for 2011. Tebow came into Training Camp and performed horrendously and his rawness, mechanical throwing issues, footwork issues couldn't have come at the worst time in his young career. It has given EFX the excuse in the 2012 draft to select a QB that they LIKE vs dealing with McD's cluster F*ck of a draft pick in the first round known as Project Tebow.

The Broncos fans must come to terms with the new reality. The Broncos are in their 2nd Rebuilding period in 2 years. The NFL is a QB driven league and if NFL teams are going to remain competitive, win their division, conference Championships, SB appearances, and SB victories.......it all starts with drafting and NFL ready college QB who has excelled in a Pro Style offense while in College!

The selection of a QB in the first round next would mean we used three 1st round selections at the position since 2006 with nothing to show for it.

[SR]

TOTALLY AGREE BECAUSE THE DENVER BRONCOS ARE MY TEAM! BUT WE HAVE BECOME IRRELEVANT ON THE NATIONAL LANDSCAPE OTHER THEN TIM TEBOW!:salute:

But who really gives a shit about Tebow except the people who followed him from FL and the other crazy religious people that follow him? No one, really.


Andrew Luck 2012. That's all there is to hope for right now.

[SR]

The selection of a QB in the first round next would mean we used three 1st round selections at the position since 2006 with nothing to show for it.

Third time is a charm, I hope.

[TXBRONC]

The more they (Elway and Fox) talk the more I'm convinced that they don't think they have their franchise quarterback on the roster. Now that doesn't mean they shouldn't play Tebow to make sure but I think a quarterback in the draft is in Denver's future.

[Npba900]

The Broncos can still sweep the Chiefs and possible beat the Vikings and Miami but those are big "IF's". The Broncos are in danger of going 2-14 this season.

[chazoe60]

The Broncos can still sweep the Chiefs and possible beat the Vikings and Miami but those are big "IF's". The Broncos are in danger of going 2-14 this season.

I'll be honest, if I had my choice of 2-14 or 5-11, I'll take 2-14 and a big steaming pile of Luck. I know I'm a shitty fan thinking all long term and shit.

[Skacorica]

But who really gives a shit about Tebow except the people who followed him from FL and the other crazy religious people that follow him? No one, really.


Andrew Luck 2012. That's all there is to hope for right now.

Luck is a great receiver.

[Nomad]

I hope Luck likes cold weather because it gets effing cold in Minnesota. He and Peterson will make quite the pair.

[jhildebrand]

I hope Luck likes cold weather because it gets effing cold in Minnesota. He and Peterson will make quite the pair.

You think they would go with Luck after drafting and paying Ponder? :confused:

[TXBRONC]

You think they would go with Luck after drafting and paying Ponder? :confused:

No way do they do that. They spent fairly high number one pick on Ponder.

[silkamilkamonico]

No I don't think Vikings would go after Luck with their investment in Ponder. I think he will be starting by the end of the year in Minnesota.

[BroncoStud]

I'd take 2-14 all day long over 5-11 this season. The problem is that if we bench Orton we will likely win more games with Tebow. Part of me wants to keep Orton is so we have the best chance of obtaining Luck.

But then another part of me feels there isn't a coach on this team capable of developing Luck and using him properly anway. I don't think we can move on as a franchise and get back to winning with an idiot coaching our team. John Fox is quickly showing me that he is everything we were warned he was. Stubborn and antiquated.

So much for "transparency"... These guys are about as transparent as the Obama Administration...

Good post Tned, by the way. I agree with everything you said.

[Northman]

If the mindset is truly "the best chance to win", but the desire is to pick from 1 to 3, then trotting Orton out there every week is not what that should be doing.(assuming he gives the best chance to win)

Good take Tned, thanks for the brain pain:)

Or at the very least if Tebow and Quinn are just that "bad" as the media has claimed than i agree, Orton isnt the best option on the field right now if your playing for a the Luck Sweepstakes.

[Nomad]

You think they would go with Luck after drafting and paying Ponder? :confused:

Yes! As much as some here would kick and scream yelling it's not fair you already have a 1st rd QB and we want him, the Vikings wouldn't miss the opportunity at Luck. Ponder would be disposable to a team that needs him and the Vikings would eat whatever they spent on him regardless if they have bigger issues elsewhere on the team.

[Northman]

Yea, im not entirely sure Minny would pass on Luck either. Ponder was a reach to begin with.

[BroncoStud]

Yea, im not entirely sure Minny would pass on Luck either. Ponder was a reach to begin with.

Ponder was a ridiculous reach. We'll find out what he brings to the table because McNabb WILL get benched this year at some point, but I saw Ponder play a few times in person and he was very unimpressive.

[Northman]

Ponder was a ridiculous reach. We'll find out what he brings to the table because McNabb WILL get benched this year at some point, but I saw Ponder play a few times in person and he was very unimpressive.

Totally agree.

[BroncoBully]

why does everyone think the vikings are getting a higher pick than us?

They have been ahead at the half in 3 of their 4 games. Thats better than us, and they have Peterson, he will win 2-3 games on his own this year. Miami on the other hand... Who is their QB, Matt Moore? They are winless now and their division looks tougher than ours.

[jhildebrand]

At this point this team has 3-4 picks in TT and the same amount of cash (if the escalators are met) that Luck would be guaranteed.

Luck is no more sure fire than Ryan Leaf, Rick Mirer, Alex Smith, David Carr, et al.

You might as well see what you have in the guy. If it isn't right yet he wins you out of the Luck sweepstakes then do what Ditka did. Or the Falcons last year. Or what the Broncos did in 83. Because at this point KC and Indy have a better shot at the kid. Miami too!

[BroncoStud]

We aren't getting Luck. We will play Orton until he's hurt, then put in Tebow or Quinn, then end up with a top 5 draft pick and miss out on Luck, while Orton walks via free agency and we still have no real evaluation of the young QBs on the roster. This whole situation is being handled in the most clusterfudge possible way and I am losing faith in the front office to give us a straight answer about anything.

I'm actually starting to hope that the fans tell Elway, Xanders, and Fox to **** off, and stop showing up for the games until these guys pull their heads out of their asses and start rebuilding. Like Tned has said, enough of the mixed signals, the fans have funded the Broncos for decades, give us a reason for hope. Play all the kids on the team and start building for the future. Orton and Dawkins have no business starting for this team.

At least Dawkins is a leader. He has MORE reason to be out there than Orton does.

[sneakers]

LOL you guys are just as crazy as the Tebowners if you think we are going to have the worst record this year and end up with Luck.

[sneakers]

Because at this point KC and Indy have a better shot at the kid. Miami too!

And seattle too.

[chazoe60]

We've been lied to by this franchise for so long now that I don't know if they're capable of telling the truth. From Bowlen's assertion that he had to have a new stadium and would field a competitive team every year if the taxpayers gave him one. To Bowlen telling pwople that Shanny was the "coach for life". To everytime McD moved his lips. To Fox saying there would be an open QB competition. To now Fox saying Orton gives us the best chance to win despite Orton leading the NFL in turnovers.

Can't trust a thing this damn team says to anyone. I'm going to be really scared if Elway comes out and says they're not trying to sign Orton to an extension.

[Tned]

For the record, as the season approached this was my thoughts on the QB situation. If the Broncos organization really believed they were division, and therefore playoff, contenders, then I was fully on board with starting Orton.

The reasoning for this is that I believed that the defense and running game would be much better, meaning the Broncos might be in most of the games this season, and if the defense turned out to be as good as it looked, play with early leads.

Starting the season with Tebow, is all but throwing the towel in on the season, which the Broncos didn't seem to want to do. I can't blame them for that. Remember, I'm the author of the "would you rather the Broncos had a 7-9 record or have a top 5 pick the next season?" polls. I put these up most years to get a feel for what people think. My personal vote is always 7-9, because to me 7-9 means you were competitive enough to have a shot at the playoffs and I believe that "if you get in, anything can happen."

I'm half asleep, so hopefully this made some sense.

[Dzone]

Im too damn old to wait. This losing shit sucks. Having a crappy team blows.

[vettesplus]

TOTALLY AGREE BECAUSE THE DENVER BRONCOS ARE MY TEAM! BUT WE HAVE BECOME IRRELEVANT ON THE NATIONAL LANDSCAPE OTHER THEN TIM TEBOW!:salute:

havent the broncos been pretty much irrelevent ever sense elway retired???:confused:

[Shazam!]

havent the broncos been pretty much irrelevent ever sense elway retired???:confused:

I cant understand how anyone in their right minds can talk about this team being '1 game away from the Division lead'.

This team is going to get ripped to shreds by SD twice and Oakland again. Sorry. Those teams arent powerhouses but theyve beaten Denver so many times in the past two years, and the Broncos stagnation so apparent to all, why would I be lead to believe anything else, other than the realm of possibility?

Ive said this before many, many times. The problem with the Broncos is they never actually rebuilt since their Championship years. Shanahan shouldve resigned, saying 'We did what we set out to do. Ive done all I can here and completed our goals,' instead of patchworking this team with some particularly bad free agents and draft classes. Started getting it right in 2006 w/Cutler and Co. but Denver has nearly nothing to show for that.

This is the lowest point of the Broncos (the last two years to now) since Ive been a fan. The whole Tebow thing, as much as I want him to start to see if he is indeed the possible franchise QB I believe he can be is a cancer and causing a divisiveness that has been never seen before.

If Tebow plays and stinks, they need to go after the 2nd best QB in 2012 (Barkley/Jones?) because I think Luck will be out of reach. If Tebow is solid, Denver is in a good position for 2012.

If he cant have his chance in Denver, I hope Tebow ends up in Jax or Miami where he can actually play. Where the crowds will follow him with a furor that has been unseen there in years.

With our luck he'll prosper and bring us misery in the future in games...

Also this constant bickering between fans sucks too, and it's bee that way for years. Literally years.

Plummer sucks/play Cutler/play Plummer/Cutler sucks/fire Shanahan/keep Shanahan/McD sucks/McD's chance/Tebow for QB/Tebow sucks

This constant fan fires Ive never seen before. really just sucks being a Broncos fan the past two years.

I used to get so friggin' angry when the Broncos lost, but Ive become so used to it now that its nearly expected. When they lose, Im down about it for a short while, ponder the outcome and what could have been, and move on.

[claymore]

I cant understand how anyone in their right minds can talk about this team being '1 game away from the Division lead'.

This team is going to get ripped to shreds by SD twice and Oakland again. Sorry. Those teams arent powerhouses but theyve beaten Denver so many times in the past two years, and the Broncos stagnation so apparent to all, why would I be lead to believe anything else, other than the realm of possibility?

Ive said this before many, many times. The problem with the Broncos is they never actually rebuilt since their Championship years. Shanahan shouldve resigned, saying 'We did what we set out to do. Ive done all I can here and completed our goals,' instead of patchworking this team with some particularly bad free agents and draft classes. Started getting it right in 2006 w/Cutler and Co. but Denver has nearly nothing to show for that.

This is the lowest point of the Broncos (the last two years to now) since Ive been a fan. The whole Tebow thing, as much as I want him to start to see if he is indeed the possible franchise QB I believe he can be is a cancer and causing a divisiveness that has been never seen before.

If Tebow plays and stinks, they need to go after the 2nd best QB in 2012 (Barkley/Jones?) because I think Luck will be out of reach. If Tebow is solid, Denver is in a good position for 2012.

If he cant have his chance in Denver, I hope Tebow ends up in Jax or Miami where he can actually play. Where the crowds will follow him with a furor that has been unseen there in years.

With our luck he'll prosper and bring us misery in the future in games...

Also this constant bickering between fans sucks too, and it's bee that way for years. Literally years.

Plummer sucks/play Cutler/play Plummer/Cutler sucks/fire Shanahan/keep Shanahan/McD sucks/McD's chance/Tebow for QB/Tebow sucks

This constant fan fires Ive never seen before. really just sucks being a Broncos fan the past two years.

I used to get so friggin' angry when the Broncos lost, but Ive become so used to it now that its nearly expected. When they lose, Im down about it for a short while, ponder the outcome and what could have been, and move on.

I used all my anger while McD was here. I expected this team to spiral to the bottom until we get the QB that we lost back.

Hopefully we can get a QB of the future next year. One that can compete and unite from day one.

[Mike]

I used all my anger while McD was here. I expected this team to spiral to the bottom until we get the QB that we lost back.

Hopefully we can get a QB of the future next year. One that can compete and unite from day one.

I would hope that the fans could come together over a young QB. But anyone outside of Luck will likely cause more divisiveness...at least until they prove to be a leader and a winner. And if the FO doesn't give Tebow a legitimate look then a lot of his fans will be upset too.

I hope we get Luck.

[claymore]

I would hope that the fans could come together over a young QB. But anyone outside of Luck will likely cause more divisiveness...at least until they prove to be a leader and a winner. And if the FO doesn't give Tebow a legitimate look then a lot of his fans will be upset too.

I hope we get Luck.

I do too. My biggest fear is Tebow coming in and being bad/mediocre and everyone being ok with that.

I want greatness, greatness is great during practice and in games. Greatness doesnt sit 2 spots to the left on the bench behind Kyle Orton and Brady Quin.

[BroncoStud]

There is just such a big difference in Luck and the rest of the pack. Getting a 2nd-level QB will be a major disappointment. I would honestly rather go a different direction and build the stoutest defense possible if we aren't able to get Luck.

But I would hope that Elway is willing to do pretty much whatever it takes to trade up for Luck. A QB of his skillset is a rarity in the NFL, and the last we John Elway himself, and that turned out pretty damn well for us Denver fans. I don't remember many screaming for the days of Steve DeBerg or Craig Morton when Elway was dominating for over a decade.

[BroncoStud]

I do too. My biggest fear is Tebow coming in and being bad/mediocre and everyone being ok with that.

I want greatness, greatness is great during practice and in games. Greatness doesnt sit 2 spots to the left on the bench behind Kyle Orton and Brady Quin.

We haven't seen anything other than mediocre play from our QB for several years now. I just want a change. Tebow needs to be evaluated before he is cut loose.

[Ravage!!!]

I think we keep the mystery of Tebow by not playing him, and that adds to his value rather than putting him on the field. THus, allowing us to use him as trade material to move up into the draft and get Luck. We will trade the draft for him.

[Ravage!!!]

We haven't seen anything other than mediocre play from our QB for several years now. I just want a change. Tebow needs to be evaluated before he is cut loose.

He's been evaluated. What you want, is for the fans to now evaluate him.

[Northman]

I do too. My biggest fear is Tebow coming in and being bad/mediocre and everyone being ok with that.

I want greatness, greatness is great during practice and in games. Greatness doesnt sit 2 spots to the left on the bench behind Kyle Orton and Brady Quin.

No Qb, even Elway was great after 3 games mate. Your expectation out of the box is unrealistic.

[BroncoStud]

He's been evaluated. What you want, is for the fans to now evaluate him.

No he hasn't. He has played pretty well every time he's take the field for this team. In fact, his offenses outscored Orton's last year and he was clearly the best QB in Preseason games this year. I don't think he's been evaluated much at all when the bullets fly and it would be a shame not to. He could very well go to another team and develop into a great QB if we cut him loose.

[chazoe60]

I think we keep the mystery of Tebow by not playing him, and that adds to his value rather than putting him on the field. THus, allowing us to use him as trade material to move up into the draft and get Luck. We will trade the draft for him.

That's why I think the est thing for the long term of this franchise os to just get the #1 pick outright. No trades, no mortgaging the future, just draft #1 in each round and move on. The first pick in the secomd and third rounds are sweet picks too. We could go a long way to rebuilding this franchise if we get the first pick.

What's the outlook for the season anyway. I thought we'd win five games when I first looked at the schedule but now I'm thinking more like 3 wins.

You have to break a few eggs to make an omlette, this season is just an egg that needs to be broken.

[MasterShake]

That's why I think the est thing for the long term of this franchise os to just get the #1 pick outright. No trades, no mortgaging the future, just draft #1 in each round and move on. The first pick in the secomd and third rounds are sweet picks too. We could go a long way to rebuilding this franchise if we get the first pick.

What's the outlook for the season anyway. I thought we'd win five games when I first looked at the schedule but now I'm thinking more like 3 wins.

You have to break a few eggs to make an omlette, this season is just an egg that needs to be broken.

**** egss. I want some bacon RIGHT NOW. Drenched in syrup.

[Slick]

Dogfish said basically the same thing last week, t. I agree that we are in limbo. However they dont really have to admit that they are rebuilding. Its pretty obvious to us fans. The transparency thing was dumb. They shouldnt be transparent or try to be.

What surprises me most is the constant bitching because it isnt a surprise that we suck hind tit.

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[Tned]

Dogfish said basically the same thing last week, t. I agree that we are in limbo. However they dont really have to admit that they are rebuilding. Its pretty obvious to us fans. The transparency thing was dumb. They shouldnt be transparent or try to be.

What surprises me most is the constant bitching because it isnt a surprise that we suck hind tit.

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Yet, I would contend that Fox truly believes he has a shot at winning the division.

[Zweems56]

Yet, I would contend that Fox truly believes he has a shot at winning the division.

And he's not wrong in that belief. You always do, until you're eliminated.

[vandammage13]

And he's not wrong in that belief. You always do, until you're eliminated.

So do the Dolphins, Vikings, and Colts have a shot? They haven't been eliminated yet.

[vandammage13]

One thing I took away from Fox's latest press conference was that he never quoted the company line that "Kyle gives us the best chance to win."

Perhaps he's coming to the realization that Orton gives us no chance to win and that the dawning of a new era is near in Dove Valley.

[BORDERLINE]

I just want the Denver fans to hold the people in charge of the Broncos Organization responsible for there record. Broncos where suppose to find a DT in FA that didn't happen then it was supposed to be the waiver wire and nada. What the hell where they doing at that time watching Orton practice

[Ravage!!!]

I just want the Denver fans to hold the people in charge of the Broncos Organization responsible for there record. Broncos where suppose to find a DT in FA that didn't happen then it was supposed to be the waiver wire and nada. What the hell where they doing at that time watching Orton practice

Where are you getting this "supposed" to stuff? You said the same thing in another thread about another topic. They were "supposed" to use this year to evaluate even if they only win four games. Now they were "supposed" to hire a DT in FA and were "supposed" to get one off the waiver wire.

By who's word were they "supposed" to do anything?

[rcsodak]

Mr Paige, look out. ;')

I don't see anything confusing, tho. Maybe its an Arkie thing...I dunno.

But if you actually expected a 4 win team to come out of the gates like gangbusters against the competition they've had, you really need to check yourself.

They've been in every game (but lw), which to me, is promising
Their run D has vastly improved. And numerous players have missed the better part of the 1st qtr.
There is nothing wrong with the term "rebuilding". There is nothing wrong with trying to win games while doing so.
Everybody here has most likely conceded it'll take more than 1 draft to get this ship righted, with better players and depth. To throw in the proverbial hankie, after 4 games, lacks a lot of things....sticktoitiveness not withstanding.
The rebuild is on, and its gonna improve: starting with a win vs SD, followed by getting the roster back healthy for the wk 7 game.
Hey...I'm still accepting bandwagonners, so you're all still invited.

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[Npba900]

I hope Luck likes cold weather because it gets effing cold in Minnesota. He and Peterson will make quite the pair.

Luck is going to need to a good TE who plays with heart, perserverance, and toughness! And Tebow will fill that void!

Luck to Tebow.......:laugh:

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Dogfish said basically the same thing last week, t. I agree that we are in limbo. However they dont really have to admit that they are rebuilding. Its pretty obvious to us fans. The transparency thing was dumb. They shouldnt be transparent or try to be.

What surprises me most is the constant bitching because it isnt a surprise that we suck hind tit.

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If we were 1-3 behind Tebow, I could accept it as rebuilding, reloading, establishing a base for the future, evaluating the current roster for the future, etc.

With Orton, we keep being fed the "best chance to win" line with few wins actually occurring. It makes us look like we're spinning our wheels hoping for something that will never come true and makes us out to be a laughing stock while we struggle with a bad veteran QB instead of turning the page like all the other teams with young QBs have done.

Every pass that Cam Newton, Colt McCoy, Blaine Gabbert, and Sam Bradford throw, for good or bad, gives them valuable game experience that will most likely make them better next year. We aren't doing that. We're (as an organization, not a fanbase) pinning our hopes of winning on a QB who has never been very good, doesn't really want to be here (asked for a trade then blocked the only one offered because it wasn't enough $), and could give a shit what the fans think.

We can't start to fix the problems and heal as a franchise and fanbase until those problems are removed from the equation. Orton is one of those problems. I'd rather go 0-16 with Tebow than I would 4-12 to 6-10 with Orton.

[Npba900]

My fingers are crossed that Elway has the opportunity to draft HIS Franchise QB in 2012!!!!!


For an early look, Elway talked to Post reporter Jeff Legwold and ranked the four most important positions when building an NFL team:

1. Quarterback

“Far and away the most important position,” Elway said. “You need the guy to win you a championship from the pocket, to be a leader, to make it go. And you’re looking for the athlete at the position who can operate from the pocket and get out when he needs to.”

2. Edge pass rusher

“I know the players who you didn’t want to see across from you, the disruptive players you had to game plan for.”

3. Left offensive tackle

“He protects the most important player’s blindside. You can’t play if the guys you can’t see coming keep hitting you. He has to be athletic, smart and tough, and you hope he’s there a long time.”

4. Cover cornerbacks

“I just believe the coverage and the rush go hand in hand. The way you give quarterbacks fits is to get their receivers under wraps and to make them uncomfortable in the pocket.”

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2011/09/06/john-elways-blueprint-for-building-a-broncos-winner/9320/

[BORDERLINE]

Where are you getting this "supposed" to stuff? You said the same thing in another thread about another topic. They were "supposed" to use this year to evaluate even if they only win four games. Now they were "supposed" to hire a DT in FA and were "supposed" to get one off the waiver wire.

By who's word were they "supposed" to do anything?

I suppose you hate the word supposed.

I guess in your world the FO tells the fans to shove it, Even if the product reeks. Are we suppose to take the BS they put on the field and still buy merchandise go to games and cheer for a back-up QB like Orton. I suppose fans that are not like casual fans. Fans like the ones that have 10,000+ post in their respective teams forums cannot voice their displeasure with the way business is being operated.

If a team lacks a player on a position of vital importance I would assume, No I would suppose they would fix it. So i don't know I just supposed they would address the QB situation given that there is 13 games of Orton last year to evaluate and only 3 count them 3 where wins.

And let's not get into the Defensive Tackle that was never drafted or signed in FA. Because I suppose our last place defense had it worked out

[rcsodak]

I suppose you hate the word supposed.

I guess in your world the FO tells the fans to shove it, Even if the product reeks. Are we suppose to take the BS they put on the field and still buy merchandise go to games and cheer for a back-up QB like Orton. I suppose fans that are not like casual fans. Fans like the ones that have 10,000+ post in their respective teams forums cannot voice their displeasure with the way business is being operated.

If a team lacks a player on a position of vital importance I would assume, No I would suppose they would fix it. So i don't know I just supposed they would address the QB situation given that there is 13 games of Orton last year to evaluate and only 3 count them 3 where wins.

And let's not get into the Defensive Tackle that was never drafted or signed in FA. Because I suppose our last place defense had it worked out
Didn't realize post count was such an important requisite.
And isn't Bunkley a DT?
He's not Suh, but he's holding his own.

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[Tned]

Listening to Elway talk on both Elway Live yesterday and Vic and Gary on Monday he said it isn't possible to develop players during the season. Once the season starts, you only have time to focus on each upcoming game, each week. The offseason and training camp is for developing players, and the regular season is for trying to win games.

While he said that the long term goal is to create a team that is a Super Bowl contender every year, right now, their goal is simply to win games.

[UnderArmour]

Listening to Elway talk on both Elway Live yesterday and Vic and Gary on Monday he said it isn't possible to develop players during the season. Once the season starts, you only have time to focus on each upcoming game, each week. The offseason and training camp is for developing players, and the regular season is for trying to win games.

While he said that the long term goal is to create a team that is a Super Bowl contender every year, right now, their goal is simply to win games.

He's wrong then. Live game reps are an essential part of the development process. Coaches may not be as big of a part of that development process once the season starts, but there is no denying that many players will catch fire once they get some reps and step up their game. Hell, we saw it with Elvis Dumervil, we saw it with Brandon Marshall, and we saw it with Jay Cutler. These players all improved as they got more game reps their rookie year.

To say that you can't develop players during the season is nothing short of ignorant. You're telling me that a player goes for 80 yards against Seattle late in the season and he wasn't making plays like that earlier in the season that the player didn't develop? Bullshit. You're telling me that when Brandon Lloyd spends a year inactive then comes into the final game of the season and starts catching passes that he didn't develop? Bullshit. Ben Roethlisburger, Joe Flaco, Matt Ryan leading their teams to the playoffs their rookie years and they didn't develop? Peyton Manning didn't develop during his rookie year? JOHN ELWAY didn't develop during his rookie year? Those live game reps are needed for the development process to set in. Practice and the game are two completely different things.

I'm sure I'm misinterpreting what Elway is saying, but if a coaching staff cannot develop players mid season then they need to be fired to bring in people who can. It's pure incompetence if players aren't developing and improving as the year progresses and there is no excuse for it.

[Tned]

He's wrong then. Live game reps are an essential part of the development process. Coaches may not be as big of a part of that development process once the season starts, but there is no denying that many players will catch fire once they get some reps and step up their game. Hell, we saw it with Elvis Dumervil, we saw it with Brandon Marshall, and we saw it with Jay Cutler. These players all improved as they got more game reps their rookie year.

To say that you can't develop players during the season is nothing short of ignorant. You're telling me that a player goes for 80 yards against Seattle late in the season and he wasn't making plays like that earlier in the season that the player didn't develop? Bullshit. You're telling me that when Brandon Lloyd spends a year inactive then comes into the final game of the season and starts catching passes that he didn't develop? Bullshit. Ben Roethlisburger, Joe Flaco, Matt Ryan leading their teams to the playoffs their rookie years and they didn't develop? Peyton Manning didn't develop during his rookie year? JOHN ELWAY didn't develop during his rookie year? Those live game reps are needed for the development process to set in. Practice and the game are two completely different things.

I'm sure I'm misinterpreting what Elway is saying, but if a coaching staff cannot develop players mid season then they need to be fired to bring in people who can. It's pure incompetence if players aren't developing and improving as the year progresses and there is no excuse for it.

Yes, you are misinterpreting. He isn't saying that "starting" players or those players getting significant playing time won't "improve" with playing time. He is saying that the focus is preparing for each upcoming game, you don't work on mechanics, which for Tebow might be snaps, drop backs, etc.

So, guys like Nate Irving, Tim Tebow, Quinton Carter, etc. are just getting enough practice snaps to know the gameplan, they aren't having their fundamentals worked on to prepare them to be starters in the league.

The offseason (mini camps and OTA's) and training camp and preseason is for developing player skills, the regular season is all about implementing the game plan for the upcoming opponent.

[claymore]

Yes, you are misinterpreting. He isn't saying that "starting" players or those players getting significant playing time won't "improve" with playing time. He is saying that the focus is preparing for each upcoming game, you don't work on mechanics, which for Tebow might be snaps, drop backs, etc.

So, guys like Nate Irving, Tim Tebow, Quinton Carter, etc. are just getting enough practice snaps to know the gameplan, they aren't having their fundamentals worked on to prepare them to be starters in the league.

The offseason (mini camps and OTA's) and training camp and preseason is for developing player skills, the regular season is all about implementing the game plan for the upcoming opponent.

Exactly. Thats how it should be. You go to war with what you have. Not what you would like to have.

[Northman]

He's wrong then. Live game reps are an essential part of the development process. Coaches may not be as big of a part of that development process once the season starts, but there is no denying that many players will catch fire once they get some reps and step up their game. Hell, we saw it with Elvis Dumervil, we saw it with Brandon Marshall, and we saw it with Jay Cutler. These players all improved as they got more game reps their rookie year.

To say that you can't develop players during the season is nothing short of ignorant. You're telling me that a player goes for 80 yards against Seattle late in the season and he wasn't making plays like that earlier in the season that the player didn't develop? Bullshit. You're telling me that when Brandon Lloyd spends a year inactive then comes into the final game of the season and starts catching passes that he didn't develop? Bullshit. Ben Roethlisburger, Joe Flaco, Matt Ryan leading their teams to the playoffs their rookie years and they didn't develop? Peyton Manning didn't develop during his rookie year? JOHN ELWAY didn't develop during his rookie year? Those live game reps are needed for the development process to set in. Practice and the game are two completely different things.

I'm sure I'm misinterpreting what Elway is saying, but if a coaching staff cannot develop players mid season then they need to be fired to bring in people who can. It's pure incompetence if players aren't developing and improving as the year progresses and there is no excuse for it.

Great post and i agree.

Sadly i think John is in over his head right now. Some of his comments make absolutely no sense and go against everything that happens in the NFL. As great as John was as a player he seems to be falling on his face right now in terms of running this team.

[Tned]

Great post and i agree.

Sadly i think John is in over his head right now. Some of his comments make absolutely no sense and go against everything that happens in the NFL. As great as John was as a player he seems to be falling on his face right now in terms of running this team.

They are allowed one padded practice and there are limits on hours/days of practice. How exactly do they develop backup players during the season?

[Northman]

They are allowed one padded practice and there are limits on hours/days of practice. How exactly do they develop backup players during the season?

Your kidding right?

You see it all over the league Tned. Young players are not only getting starts but are being put in on rotations to get experience. As pointed out too you before you develope the more you see the field.

[Tned]

Your kidding right?

You see it all over the league Tned. Young players are not only getting starts but are being put in on rotations to get experience. As pointed out too you before you develope the more you see the field.

Read what I typed. How do you develop backups?

Let's just take Tebow. As long as the team is focused on winning the division, and they consider Orton the best guy and therefore are starting him, then 'exactly' how do they develop him during the season? How do they fix his drop back, his progressions, etc.?

[Northman]

Read what I typed. How do you develop backups?

Let's just take Tebow. As long as the team is focused on winning the division, and they consider Orton the best guy and therefore are starting him, then 'exactly' how do they develop him during the season? How do they fix his drop back, his progressions, etc.?

You dont think its possible to learn on the fly? And quite frankly, despite what Elway and Fox think there are just as many other guys (Montana) who think the kid shouldnt change a thing. He believes Tebow should go in and just play the way he's always known and won by. While he will need to grasp the speed of the game thats something that EVERY QB faces when coming into the NFL. The problem i have with people is that they believe the word of the John's to be gospel. Keep in mind this is Elway's first go around with dealing with the management of the Broncos and Fox has as history of being a losing HC. Not really the recipe for success there. Having faith is fine, but having perspective and objectivity is better.

[Tned]

You dont think its possible to learn on the fly? And quite frankly, despite what Elway and Fox think there are just as many other guys (Montana) who think the kid shouldnt change a thing. He believes Tebow should go in and just play the way he's always known and won by. While he will need to grasp the speed of the game thats something that EVERY QB faces when coming into the NFL. The problem i have with people is that they believe the word of the John's to be gospel. Keep in mind this is Elway's first go around with dealing with the management of the Broncos and Fox has as history of being a losing HC. Not really the recipe for success there. Having faith is fine, but having perspective and objectivity is better.

You are changing to target here. If you start with the premise that Orton gives the Broncos the best chance to win and that the Broncos are shooting for a division title, and that's why Orton's the starter, then I ask again, how does Tebow during the season develop the areas he's weak in (not talking about his throwing motion) and prove to the coach/FO that he gives the Broncos the best chance to win?

[Northman]

You are changing to target here. If you start with the premise that Orton gives the Broncos the best chance to win and that the Broncos are shooting for a division title, and that's why Orton's the starter, then I ask again, how does Tebow during the season develop the areas he's weak in (not talking about his throwing motion) and prove to the coach/FO that he gives the Broncos the best chance to win?

He cant develop. He doesnt get to work with the starters in practice, at least consistently.

The problem i have is that i think Fox and Elway are delusional. We dont have a team built to compete this year, not on that kind of level. We have a starting QB who isnt playing better than a rookie QB right now.

This is my whole problem with the FO right now, they dont seem to have a grasp on the reality of the situation in Denver. They have somehow convinced themselves that they stand a legitimate shot at making the playoffs. And although im fine with having confidence you could easily sell that to the fanbase putting Quinn or Tebow in. They cant do any worse than Orton right now and (god forbid) they might actually play better.

But no, there is no way for Tebow to prove anything. Just like there wasnt a way for him to do it in the offseason behind scrubs.

[Tned]

He cant develop. He doesnt get to work with the starters in practice, at least consistently.

All I was trying to do in these last two posts are to seperate the two factors. Based on their "we can win the division this year" approach, they are correct, they cannot develop Tebow or other non-starter or non-rotational players during the season.

Now on to delusional.


The problem i have is that i think Fox and Elway are delusional. We dont have a team built to compete this year, not on that kind of level. We have a starting QB who isnt playing better than a rookie QB right now.

This is my whole problem with the FO right now, they dont seem to have a grasp on the reality of the situation in Denver. They have somehow convinced themselves that they stand a legitimate shot at making the playoffs. And although im fine with having confidence you could easily sell that to the fanbase putting Quinn or Tebow in. They cant do any worse than Orton right now and (god forbid) they might actually play better.

But no, there is no way for Tebow to prove anything. Just like there wasnt a way for him to do it in the offseason behind scrubs.

I'm on the fence here. I was FULLY willing to start the season with Tebow, even there might be major growing pains. There is part of me that thinks we can win more games with Tebow. I think he will blow some (Romo style, if you will) in the fashion that young QBs tend to do when they first get a chance to start, but I also think he has MUCH more big play potential.

But, putting best chance to win aside, I think the team needs to find out if he is a viable starter and if not, draft someone else in '12.

[BroncoStud]

We have plenty of painful growing pains with Orton right now, why not have them with Tebow or Quinn? Getting a QB prepared to run this system, who will NOT be a Denver Bronco next season has no preceived value to this organization.

[vandammage13]

He cant develop. He doesnt get to work with the starters in practice, at least consistently.

The problem i have is that i think Fox and Elway are delusional. We dont have a team built to compete this year, not on that kind of level. We have a starting QB who isnt playing better than a rookie QB right now.

This is my whole problem with the FO right now, they dont seem to have a grasp on the reality of the situation in Denver. They have somehow convinced themselves that they stand a legitimate shot at making the playoffs. And although im fine with having confidence you could easily sell that to the fanbase putting Quinn or Tebow in. They cant do any worse than Orton right now and (god forbid) they might actually play better.

But no, there is no way for Tebow to prove anything. Just like there wasnt a way for him to do it in the offseason behind scrubs.

It's kind of funny...Do you know how many bottom feeding teams would love to have their fans not only content, but behind the idea of rebuilding, rather than have the pressure of needing to win?

The Broncos have this opportunity, but still seem to think they need to try to win now...Which is baffling to me considering they think they can do it with Orton at the helm, but that is another topic altogether.

[Northman]

It's kind of funny...Do you know how many bottom feeding teams would love to have their fans not only content, but behind the idea of rebuilding, rather than have the pressure of needing to win?

The Broncos have this opportunity, but still seem to think they need to try to win now...Which is baffling to me considering they think they can do it with Orton at the helm, but that is another topic altogether.

Exactly.

If this team still had the offense from 08' i would say yea, lets win now. But we are way past that now.

[vandammage13]

I'm on the fence here. I was FULLY willing to start the season with Tebow, even there might be major growing pains. There is part of me that thinks we can win more games with Tebow. I think he will blow some (Romo style, if you will) in the fashion that young QBs tend to do when they first get a chance to start, but I also think he has MUCH more big play potential.

But, putting best chance to win aside, I think the team needs to find out if he is a viable starter and if not, draft someone else in '12.

It is kind of ironic that the guy they should play to jumpstart the rebuilding process could also be the QB that has a better chance to lead us to more wins.

[chazoe60]

The mistake is not playingthe guy you think gives you the best chance to win, the mistake is thinking Orton is that guy.


Everyone can see how terrible he is. He leads the league in turnovers. He can't perform under pressure at all. He is 6-20 for God's sake. He is nobody's best chance to win and if he is then all it proves is the the entire decision making team for this franchise screwed up the QB position so bad they should all be fired. Not just the previous regime either. This regime, although hamstrung by the lockout, also had time and did not come up with an NFL caliber starting QB. Who do we blame for Prton being our best chance?

[jhildebrand]

It is kind of ironic that the guy they should play to jumpstart the rebuilding process could also be the QB that has a better chance to lead us to more wins.

The problem with that is Tebow may win them enough games to excite the fanbase but not enough in the FO's eyes to feel comfortable tying their proverbial hitch to him. A la my fool's gold theory.

[NightTerror218]

Tned.....what does this mean


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d822e1991/article/broncos-fox-predictably-peppered-with-tebow-questions

[Tned]

Tned.....what does this mean


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d822e1991/article/broncos-fox-predictably-peppered-with-tebow-questions

I've held a different view than many of the "Tebow will never play for Fox" people. I've listened to Elway and Fox's comments all along, including the presser on Monday that people interpreted as they would have to create a different offense (running) for Tebow, which I think was completely misinterpreted.

Elway said he is a firm believer in not throwing QBs out too soon, because QBs have been ruined, by losing confidence in themselves, when they were made the starter before they are ready.

I think it simply comes down to the fact that the Broncos are trying to win the division and think that "right now" Kyle Orton is the best QB to allow them to do that.

[jhildebrand]

I think it is a veiled glimmer of hope for the TT crowd. I think it is a pacifier to some degree.

TT will be the starter next year whether he plays some or not this year. Scott Hastings on the Fan today hit the head on the nail with this quote.

I am surprised this was brought up here sooner.

[bcbronc]

[WIDTH]Tned’s Take: It’s time to end the mixed messages from Dove valley

Is it any surprise that Broncos fans are confused and frustrated?

I don't think it's mixed messages that have you confused, I think it's your unreasonable expectation that everything be neatly categorized in black and white boxes.


On the one hand we hear that it’s about “the best chance to win” this season, but on the other hand John Fox says “Let’s not lose touch with reality here; this is a 4-12 football team under a new staff. We’re four games into it. We’re 1-3, that’s the reality, and that’s where we are.”

So, are the Broncos a team capable of winning now, which means focusing on the players and moves that give them “the best chance to win” this season, or are they a team that is, dare I use the forbidden word, rebuilding?

this is exactly what I mean. Why are two necessarily exclusive of each other? In fact, I'd say a rebuilding team still has to focus on "winning now"--no matter how unrealistic--if they want any shot at rebuilding properly. The most effective foundation for a successful rebuild is having the right culture in the organization, from the dressing room on up. Putting younger players who simply aren't as good of football players as the veterans ahead of them on the field just to "get them experience" ends up poisoning said culture and kills the rebuild before it can get off the ground.

Take Dawkins vs Carter for example. There's a lot more to the equation than simply saying we're not Superbowl contenders so give the young guy experience right away. First, there's the risk of piling too much on the young guys plate. Maybe the coaches don't feel Carter (just as an example) doesn't have all the reads down yet, or want him to get more proficient with a specific technique he's never used before, or just simply become more physically and emotionally mature. Sometimes being thrown into the fire offers no benefit.

And then there's the optics of guy starting despite someone else being clearly better. What kind of culture does this build? Throwing the towel in on a season and giving guys starting positions out of an entitlement instead of merit? How do you get your players to work hard during the week if you've already quit on the season? I dunno, starting the rebuild by teaching the virtues of quitting and not earning your playing time just doesn't seem the best foundation to me.

Further to that point, what does that tell future UFAs, or current veterans with expiring contracts? UFA: "Nice contract offer, but I saw you guys quit in week 4 last year, and saw the film on that Carter kid, and there's no way he's a better player right now than Dawk. Think I'll go to a less mickey mouse organization, thanks tho."

The proper way to rebuild is to have young guys BEAT OUT veterans. You don't just hand over starting spots. You try to win every week (until you're officially eliminated) and get your younger guys game reps when the vets need a breather or get injured. And you hope those younger guys start making plays in practice or in those game reps, allowing their coaches to work them into situations and eventually starter roles. This sets the right foundation for a rebuild, one where players earn their playing time (rather than fans voting them starters, or age/draft status, etc determining who sees the field) and the young guys are developed with an understanding that as long as there is still life left in the season, everyone in the organization expects them to fight, claw, scratch and do everything in their power to get Ws.

Quit on a season after 4 weeks when we've been in 3 of the games right down to the wire...THAT's how you lose a fanbase.


No he hasn't. He has played pretty well every time he's take the field for this team. In fact, his offenses outscored Orton's last year and he was clearly the best QB in Preseason games this year. I don't think he's been evaluated much at all when the bullets fly and it would be a shame not to. He could very well go to another team and develop into a great QB if we cut him loose.

wait, Tebow managed one TD against the bottom barrel scrubs in WK4 during the preseason...clearly wasn't even the second best QB in preseason.




Every pass that Cam Newton, Colt McCoy, Blaine Gabbert, and Sam Bradford throw, for good or bad, gives them valuable game experience that will most likely make them better next year. We aren't doing that. We're (as an organization, not a fanbase) pinning our hopes of winning on a QB who has never been very good, doesn't really want to be here (asked for a trade then blocked the only one offered because it wasn't enough $), and could give a shit what the fans think.

The BIG difference between those QBs and Tebow...all of them are simply the best QB on their respective roster. If that was the same situation with Tebow, he too would be starting.


We can't start to fix the problems and heal as a franchise and fanbase until those problems are removed from the equation. Orton is one of those problems. I'd rather go 0-16 with Tebow than I would 4-12 to 6-10 with Orton.

why? That makes no sense. If we go 6-10 with Orton, it means other areas are playing well enough to win (cuz we know it won't be Orton carrying us to those 6 wins). If we went 0-16 with Tebow it would mean every other aspect of our team sucks and we've made zero progress despite having a #2 overall draft year. I'd much rather see positive steps with lame-duck Orton leading the ship than see Tebow flame out AND no progress in the overall team.



Elway said he is a firm believer in not throwing QBs out too soon, because QBs have been ruined, by losing confidence in themselves, when they were made the starter before they are ready.



no, Northman already proved that incorrect. Peyton Manning started from game 1 and he's a HOFer. lol.

[jhildebrand]

no, Northman already proved that incorrect. Peyton Manning started from game 1 and he's a HOFer. lol.

Besides, Elway was totally ruined by being thrown in the fire. As is Bradford, Newton, Stafford, Ryan, Brees, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Flacco....oh wait :tsk:

They really think the Denver fanbase is DUMB

[Northman]

Besides, Elway was totally ruined by being thrown in the fire. As is Bradford, Newton, Stafford, Ryan, Brees, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Flacco....oh wait :tsk:

They really think the Denver fanbase is DUMB


You notice how BcB totally missed ALL the other examples i went through when doing my research. Pretty typical response from him though. :lol:

[jhildebrand]

You notice how BcB totally missed ALL the other examples i went through when doing my research. Pretty typical response from him though. :lol:

I did. That's why I continue to hammer away. :lol:

I have been totally stoked with everything Elway and Fox did except the QB position.

[jhildebrand]

I forgot Carson Palmer, Mark Sanchez, Eli Manning, Josh Freeman and Blaine Gabbert.

[Tned]

I forgot Carson Palmer, Mark Sanchez, Eli Manning, Josh Freeman and Blaine Gabbert.

Carson Palmer wasn't thrown right in the mix. They made a decision to sit him the first year, and had the vet Kitna start. He never took a snap his first season, not even in garbage time. He did start his second year, however.

[jhildebrand]

Carson Palmer wasn't thrown right in the mix. They made a decision to sit him the first year, and had the vet Kitna start. He never took a snap his first season, not even in garbage time. He did start his second year, however.

My bad. I obviously didn't remember that. But we all know there are several more examples of qb's thrown to the fire who did just fine.

[Tned]

My bad. I obviously didn't remember that. But we all know there are several more examples of qb's thrown to the fire who did just fine.

Definitely. I've always been mixed. I can see the advantage of a QB holding a clipboard, especially in the old days when the backup called the play in with hand signals. On the other hand, there is something about learning on the field.

[jhildebrand]

Definitely. I've always been mixed. I can see the advantage of a QB holding a clipboard, especially in the old days when the backup called the play in with hand signals. On the other hand, there is something about learning on the field.

I get sitting a guy behind Elway, Favre, etc... When you have nothing else or Orton, play em even if it is to say nana nana boo boo to your fan base. That would be better than insulting their intellignece on multiple occasions.

[Tned]

I get sitting a guy behind Elway, Favre, etc... When you have nothing else or Orton, play em even if it is to say nana nana boo boo to your fan base. That would be better than insulting their intellignece on multiple occasions.

I'm with you. I had a hard time not giving Tebow the starting job, or at least giving him a better shot in preseason to prove he was close to ready. Orton and Quinn both got time behind the first team O-line, but Tebow didn't.

[Tned]

I went to take a look at the "Shanahan fired" thread to see if North is right, and I've blown things way out of proportion and only five people considered the post Elway, Shanahan years a failure or the like.

Anyway, I only looked at two or three posts (about to go to bed, so will look through the thread tomorrow), but this one was just too good to not post here.

Hate to do it to Shazam, and I probably would have even agreed with it at the time, but the IRONY of me just reading this post after knowing who Bowlen picked and what happened to the defense, was just too great to not share this.



And Dogfish? Dead on accurate man, right on, spoken true. Here's to the future. Barring a disastrous pick by Bowlen it won't be terrible IMO. The keys to the Offense are there with a Back, and seriously, the D can't get WORSE.

[Tned]

Looks like Dove Vally is putting an end to the mixed messages.

[Traveler]

Looks like Dove Vally is putting an end to the mixed messages.

Finally! If shopping Lloyd (and possibly DJ) doesn't signify they are all-in on the rebuild, I don't know what will.


Tned, you've been on a pretty good streak this year. Got them to change jerseys (still upset with that move because I hate orange), called them out on the mixed messages, and now becoming a celebrity.

[Juriga72]

I posted this already.... John Clayton was on the radio here and he said " The fact that John Fox changed his quarterbacks this quickly is surprising. He stuck with Jake Delhonme for 11 weeks as he threw 18 int's...

[Dreadnought]

I posted this already.... John Clayton was on the radio here and he said " The fact that John Fox changed his quarterbacks this quickly is surprising. He stuck with Jake Delhonme for 11 weeks as he threw 18 int's...

Not that surprising, insofar as I get the loyalty from Fox to Delhomme. The guy had a good run at Carolina, including an NFC title for Fox. You don't throw that over lightly. Fox hasn't got that much of a personal stake in Orton.

And PS; in his prime Delhomme was a far better QB than Kyle Orton.

[FlyByU]

I hope Luck likes cold weather because it gets effing cold in Minnesota. He and Peterson will make quite the pair.

He wont need to worry about the cold to much he has a Dome. But to make sure he stays warm he will pair up with Reggie Wayne in Indy.