John Fox: We tried the Tebow package once and lost yardage

[BroncoAV06]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/03/john-fox-we-tried-the-tebow-package-once-and-lost-yardage/


Fox was asked about it after the game, when reporters wondered whether the reason to give Tebow only one play was that they were behind the Packers and needed Orton’s passing to catch up.

“That, and we did it once and we lost yardage,” Fox said. “That wasn’t all on him by any stretch, but it didn’t prove to be beneficial, so we went in a different direction.”

When something does not work once of course never try it again.

I'm not wanting to start another bench Orton thread. My question/problem is if Fox wants a run first, strong offense why leave a run first QB out of the game plan? Are you telling me there is no way to get Tim a few plays, maybe even a play action to try to get the offense going? Give them a different look. Heck a fle-flicker is out of the box for Fox and it worked.

If all else fails I'm sure the defense could use another saftey to chase the wide-outs all around the field, send Tim out there .....

[jhildebrand]

Even Peter King and a few other writers who were staunchly in support of Fox when it came to Orton are beginning to take him to task for his lack of imagination.

[Northman]

I dont care about this that much actually. Im with Claymore when he says that we should either shit or get off the pot. Newton, Young, and Vick werent drafted to be package players. And you certainly dont draft a "package" player in the first round. Either play the kid full throttle or sit him and keep Orton in. But this trying to be cute stuff is retarded.

[GEM]

We tried the Orton package and he kept throwing the ball to the other teams players. We won't be trying that again.



:laugh:

[BroncoAV06]

I dont care about this that much actually. Im with Claymore when he says that we should either shit or get off the pot. Newton, Young, and Vick werent drafted to be package players. And you certainly dont draft a "package" player in the first round. Either play the kid full throttle or sit him and keep Orton in. But this trying to be cute stuff is retarded.

Well Tebow has been turned into a package player under John Fox.

[vandammage13]

We tried the Orton package and he kept throwing the ball to the other teams players. We won't be trying that again.



:laugh:

Unfortunately we will...

[Northman]

Well Tebow has been turned into a package player under John Fox.

True, but its still silly and moronic. IMO

[Bullgator]

Clearly Fox is pissed at the fans for trying to force his hand. So he put TT in a sitch he is sure to fail so he could say "hey thats what happens when you listen to the fans, we lost yardage"

as if hes trying to put put the "tebow-tebow" chants to bed... I got news for you next week is going to be brutal!

I just dont know if I trust Fox enough with TT to want TT to play. He is so stubborn and spiteful that I can see him riding TT career into the dirt just to prove his point. paranoid? maybe but his 1 play up the middle when everyone knows what your doing and then saying "hey it lost yards so he dont get to play anymore" raises huge red flags.

[BroncoAV06]

True, but its still silly and moronic. IMO

Passing the ball was once silly. Its the NFL, you have to use everything you have to try and win games. Think outside the box. 3 yards and a cloud of dust won't cut it these days.

I'm not saying that a Tebow package will win games. I just want to see the Broncos offense actually have a wrinkle. John Fox keeps running Moreno out there and not like he is racking up the yards.

[NightTerror218]

Clearly Fox is pissed at the fans for trying to force his hand. So he put TT in a sitch he is sure to fail so he could say "hey thats what happens when you listen to the fans, we lost yardage"

as if hes trying to put put the "tebow-tebow" chants to bed... I got news for you next week is going to be brutal!

I just dont know if I trust Fox enough with TT to want TT to play. He is so stubborn and spiteful that I can see him riding TT career into the dirt just to prove his point. paranoid? maybe but his 1 play up the middle when everyone knows what your doing and then saying "hey it lost yards so he dont get to play anymore" raises huge red flags.

For once I agree with you. that comment was more of...see what happens when fans get what they want we lose yards. Seemed like more of the take that fans kind of comment.

[Zweems56]

Well Tebow has been turned into a package player under John Fox.

Dont kid yourself. Tebow was a package player under McDaniels too. Everyone is so worried about their job, that they're too afraid to put the kid in for a season (or even a half a season for that matter.) It'll be a shame when we draft the 3rd best quarterback this offseason, and send Tebow on his way without ever knowing what he's capable of. Would be even more of a shame to see him go somewhere else, and light it up. Color me resigned to disappointment.

[slim]

If at first you don't succeed, give up.

It's too bad Fox hasn't taken that approach with Kyle.

[NightTerror218]

Dont kid yourself. Tebow was a package player under McDaniels too. Everyone is so worried about their job, that they're too afraid to put the kid in for a season (or even a half a season for that matter.) It'll be a shame when we draft the 3rd best quarterback this offseason, and send Tebow on his way without ever knowing what he's capable of. Would be even more of a shame to see him go somewhere else, and light it up. Color me resigned to disappointment.

If he does that, Elway will have ruined his rep with Denver....will just be a HOF Qb in denver and no longer the golden child of the franchise.

[Northman]

Passing the ball was once silly. Its the NFL, you have to use everything you have to try and win games. Think outside the box. 3 yards and a cloud of dust won't cut it these days.

:lol:

Well, using a guy for special packages is a far cry from throwing the football on a regular basis. Fact is, the "special" package has been done before when the Dolphins introduced the Wildcat. Problem is, every team has tried to incorporate it into their offense but since the early success of Miami it has gone by the wayside and teams dont mess with it anymore.


I'm not saying that a Tebow package will win games. I just want to see the Broncos offense actually have a wrinkle. John Fox keeps running Moreno out there and not like he is racking up the yards.

I agree, but thats a issue with some of the talent on this team and not so much the playcalling. I watched the Ravens last night just continue to run the ball at will on NY and they couldnt stop it. They werent doing anything fancy, just running it right up the gut and eating clock.

While i dont care if they put Tebow in this package i think its just silly because it isnt going to surprise anyone. Want to use him around the goalline? that makes sense but even then its going to have limited success. Teams are just privy to all that now following the wildcat crap. There's still not team that wins with success in this league that has to resort to "trickery" and "package" plays to win ballgames.

Denver just needs to continue to build their depth, get a vaild QB to start, and have good gameplans on gameday.

[Thnikkaman]

Thanks for that big FU Mr. Fox

[BroncoStud]

Too bad we don't get to go "in a different direction" with a good coach.

[claymore]

Well Tebow has been turned into a package player under John Fox.

McD turned him into the package player. Fox just has him polishing the bench with his butt.

[lgenf]

Clearly Fox is pissed at the fans for trying to force his hand. So he put TT in a sitch he is sure to fail so he could say "hey thats what happens when you listen to the fans, we lost yardage"

as if hes trying to put put the "tebow-tebow" chants to bed... I got news for you next week is going to be brutal!

I just dont know if I trust Fox enough with TT to want TT to play. He is so stubborn and spiteful that I can see him riding TT career into the dirt just to prove his point. paranoid? maybe but his 1 play up the middle when everyone knows what your doing and then saying "hey it lost yards so he dont get to play anymore" raises huge red flags.

I agree with you there Bull

that comment seemed more like an in-your-face comment to the fans wanting change than it did a matter of fact comment

[claymore]

I agree with you there Bull

that comment seemed more like an in-your-face comment to the fans wanting change than it did a matter of fact comment

To me it sounded like a guy sick of answering irrelevant questions about his 3rd string QB.

[Bullgator]

To me it sounded like a guy sick of answering irrelevant questions about his 3rd string QB.

He reminds me of you. You are both weak minded. You let your hatred for the teboners skew your judgement. although I will say a weak mind is the only thing you have in common as he is rich and has a dream job... but at least you share one quality with coach fox.

[Nomad]

I am willing to give Fox his 'wait and see' approach but that play was a failure on Fox. He knew it wouldn't succeed and his comment about the play makes him look even more of a numbnut. Just keep the young man on the bench if Fox isn't gonna make an effort to see what Tebow has.

BTW, Fox, take pointers from Mike McCarthy on how to build a team and coach a team! tia

[GEM]

He reminds me of you. You are both weak minded. You let your hatred for the teboners skew your judgement. although I will say a weak mind is the only thing you have in common as he is rich and has a dream job... but at least you share one quality with coach fox.

Alright, don't insult the guy. Stick to the topic instead of sticking to Clay's personal life as you really have no idea about Clay. You just lost the argument.

[lgenf]

To me it sounded like a guy sick of answering irrelevant questions about his 3rd string QB.


when your 1st string QB is not getting it done, and is directly responsible for two of your three loses, answering questions about your co-2 QB is not irrelevant, just keep hating Clay

THE TEAM the FO they are the ones that listed T2 as the Co-2 not the fans, so they could have put this to rest, but they didn't so now they deal with the questions, because Orton isn't getting it done, and has two loses squarely on his shoulders from this year already

[Northman]

Aside from experience Orton isnt "worlds" better than Tebow or Quinn. Thats pretty plain to see from everyone but the Bronco brass. lol

[lgenf]

Aside from experience Orton isnt "worlds" better than Tebow or Quinn. Thats pretty plain to see from everyone but the Bronco brass. lol


and Clay apparently he sees something in Orton that inspires him to hate on Tebow something fierce

[Northman]

and Clay apparently he sees something in Orton that inspires him to hate on Tebow something fierce

Nah, i dont get the sense he really likes Orton. But i know he doesnt like Tebow either. Ultimately i think he is like most of us and is just fed up with the circus of it all.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Nah, i dont get the sense he really likes Orton. But i know he doesnt like Tebow either. Ultimately i think he is like most of us and is just fed up with the circus of it all.

I don't know.....Kyle seems to be the kind of QB Fox loves.

[NightTerror218]

I don't know.....Kyle seems to be the kind of QB Fox loves.

The QB who is all a roll to be leading QBs in turnovers? Probably leading QB in 4th quarter turnovers?

Edit: He is tied for 1st in interceptions and has 2 losted fumbles.....he does lead the NFL in turnovers.

[Bullgator]

Alright, don't insult the guy. Stick to the topic instead of sticking to Clay's personal life as you really have no idea about Clay. You just lost the argument.

Clay throws enough shots my way to get a few of his own.

[Northman]

I don't know.....Kyle seems to be the kind of QB Fox loves.

Im talking about Claymore.

[vandammage13]

Good thing for Fox that after Week 1 Elway didn't say "We tried Fox once and it didn't work out..."

Never heard of someone abandoning something after one play. He probably should have handled the question differently by saying that the situation for the Tebow Package didn't present itself...Kind of hard to run a goaline package when you rarely get down there.

[MileHighCrew]

ok I have never been called the biggest TT supporter, although I like the kid. But that was the most stupid comment since......... McDaniels left Dove Valley

[echobravo]

Also said the thought of putting in the number two QB never crossed his mind. What we have here is a failure. . .
Nothing more just a failure as a coach.

[GEM]

Good thing for Fox that after Week 1 Elway didn't say "We tried Fox once and it didn't work out..."

Never heard of someone abandoning something after one play. He probably should have handled the question differently by saying that the situation for the Tebow Package didn't present itself...Kind of hard to run a goaline package when you rarely get down there.

Or refuse to use it when you should. *cough cough* 2 pt conversion *cough cough*

[rcsodak]

I guess the flea flicker wasnt a "wrinkle", eh?

Just admit it.

TT gets 10 plays, youll want 20.

He had the whole field to do something, and he stuck his face in the ass of an Olineman.

Passing leagues dont need running qb's. See BVP.


True, but its still silly and moronic. IMO

Passing the ball was once silly. Its the NFL, you have to use everything you have to try and win games. Think outside the box. 3 yards and a cloud of dust won't cut it these days.

I'm not saying that a Tebow package will win games. I just want to see the Broncos offense actually have a wrinkle. John Fox keeps running Moreno out there and not like he is racking up the yards.

[bcbronc]

True, but its still silly and moronic. IMO

I don't get this mentality. If Tebow can convert 1 or 2 3rd downs a game and produce even 8 TDs over the course of a season what's silly about having him on the roster? The game has become so specialized that having an "X-Back" that runs goalline/short yardage packages makes sense. Especially if we happen to have a rookie 1st rounder learning the ropes...

The difference between Tebow and the Wildcat, imo, is that Tebow is (sorta) a QB first. Unlike a RB taking a direct snap, Tebow can throw fly routes and deep posts pretty well, and is at least a threat to throw in the redzone. That does differ from the Wildcat type offenses where the only threat of a pass is a flip to a wide open TE etc (LT style).

If they could all stay healthy Moreno, Tebow, D. Thomas, J. Thomas, and V. Green could develop into a nice goalline package.


Clearly Fox is pissed at the fans for trying to force his hand. So he put TT in a sitch he is sure to fail so he could say "hey thats what happens when you listen to the fans, we lost yardage"

you know what, this is my biggest concern too. Fox says he doesn't pay attention to what the fans are saying...doesn't see the billboards etc...but I 100% knew he was going to pull a stunt just like this just so he could say "see, let's move on." Which of course means he is listening to the hype and he's letting it influence his game plan.

Either use Tebow, or don't. But just like naming "co-#2s" the play vs GBP clearly had nothing to do with helping the Broncos win the game. So how else is the circus impacting Fox's game plan each week? Is that why Tebow isn't being used, period? Because Fox wants to avoid drama?

Or, other hand, maybe it's the other way around. Maybe Fox is hearing from above, "come on man, they've got billboards up! Throw Tebow a bone!" Maybe this is an F U from Fox to someone in the FO, not the fans. Either way, shitty time's in Broncoland.

[turftoad]

Or, maybe...... thats just how much confidence they have in TT.

[Bullgator]

wow this really is a cluster **** isnt it? there isnt a team in the league with this much trouble going on. FO is ******* this up bigtime.

[Bullgator]

Good thing for Fox that after Week 1 Elway didn't say "We tried Fox once and it didn't work out..."

Never heard of someone abandoning something after one play. He probably should have handled the question differently by saying that the situation for the Tebow Package didn't present itself...Kind of hard to run a goaline package when you rarely get down there.

he didnt want to word it differently, he probably wanted to say it in an even more "in your face" manner... he probably restrained himself.

[vandammage13]

he didnt want to word it differently, he probably wanted to say it in an even more "in your face" manner... he probably restrained himself.

Yeah you might be right.

[I Eat Staples]

Fox didn't abandon the package because it lost yards. He was just being sarcastic, basically telling the fans to get over Tebow. Which we should. I know Orton isn't very good but our backups flat out suck.

[vandammage13]

Fox didn't abandon the package because it lost yards. He was just being sarcastic, basically telling the fans to get over Tebow. Which we should. I know Orton isn't very good but our backups flat out suck.

That is speculation at this point...We haven't seen enough of either to draw a conclusion.

I suspect we will see enough of one of them at some point this year to either validate your speculation or prove it wrong.

[I Eat Staples]

That is speculation at this point...We haven't seen enough of either to draw a conclusion.

I suspect we will see enough of one of them at some point this year to either validate your speculation or prove it wrong.

That's what I'm hoping for. I want Tebow to have a chance to prove critics like myself wrong, even if its just a slim chance. Its not like we're winning the division with Orton, we have nothing to lose.

But even if Tebow surprises, he's almost certainly not going to be better than Luck.

[claymore]

wow this really is a cluster **** isnt it? there isnt a team in the league with this much trouble going on. FO is ******* this up bigtime.

There are teams more ****ed up than the Broncos. Problem is they dont have Elvis Presley as their 3rd string ****ing QB.

[vandammage13]

There are teams more ****ed up than the Broncos. Problem is they dont have Elvis Presley as their 3rd string ****ing QB.

Really?...You do realize that over the last 25 games no team has lost more than Denver, right? That's 6 wins in 25 contests. (Soon to be 5 wins in the last 25)

Face it...The Broncos are as bad as their record indicates. They are a team that needs to be in rebuilding mode, with an FO that refuses to go into rebuilding mode.

[I Eat Staples]

Really?...You do realize that over the last 25 games no team has lost more than Denver, right? That's 6 wins in 25 contests. (Soon to be 5 wins in the last 25)

Face it...The Broncos are as bad as their record indicates. They are a team that needs to be in rebuilding mode, with an FO that refuses to go into rebuilding mode.

We are in rebuilding mode. Just because Orton is still starting doesn't mean we aren't. Von Miller is more talented than the majority of defensive players in this league, and most teams wouldn't mind having safety prospects like Moore and Carter and a potential impact player at guard in Franklin.

I said when we hired Fox that this team was 3 years away from contention. We already see improvement in our defense, now we need a franchise QB, help in the secondary, and some players to fill the middle. Then you add in some depth on the lines, an every down runner, and LB depth, and we'll be contending for the division for quite some time. That's very reachable within 3 years.

[Northman]

We are in rebuilding mode.

Are we?

While you and i might agree Fox and Elway seem to think differently. :lol:

[vandammage13]

We are in rebuilding mode. Just because Orton is still starting doesn't mean we aren't. Von Miller is more talented than the majority of defensive players in this league, and most teams wouldn't mind having safety prospects like Moore and Carter and a potential impact player at guard in Franklin.

I said when we hired Fox that this team was 3 years away from contention. We already see improvement in our defense, now we need a franchise QB, help in the secondary, and some players to fill the middle. Then you add in some depth on the lines, an every down runner, and LB depth, and we'll be contending for the division for quite some time. That's very reachable within 3 years.

Still, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a team worse off than the Broncos are right now...

Maybe Minnesota considering the overall age of that team but even then they are probably viewed nationally as a more respectable team than we are right now.

This team has age concerns of its own at key positions. Champ is at an age where he can't stay on the field..BDawk can no longer cover the field...Elvis is having trouble coming back from his injury.

Those are core players that might need to be replaced during this rebuilding phase (like it or not), and those are actually our strongest players.

Three years might be enough to turn things around and there is much more wrong with this team than just the QB position, but sticking with KO does nothing to jumpstart the rebuilding phase.

[claymore]

Really?...You do realize that over the last 25 games no team has lost more than Denver, right? That's 6 wins in 25 contests. (Soon to be 5 wins in the last 25)

Face it...The Broncos are as bad as their record indicates. They are a team that needs to be in rebuilding mode, with an FO that refuses to go into rebuilding mode.

We got rid of the anchor (McD) now we have to rise slowly out of the depths that basturd took us too.

[claymore]

Are we?

While you and i might agree Fox and Elway seem to think differently. :lol:

Although they might not call it that, I think they know where we are. Elway has said it will take 3 years to return to the playoffs, or start winning. I think once we get a good QB/OC that is very realistic.

[scott.475]

We gave the ball to Orton to try and throw a pass, and a ghost knocked it out of his hand.
We gave the ball to Orton to try and throw a pass, and it got batted at the line, a bunch of times.
We gave the ball to Orton to try and throw a pass, and he threw an interception, several times.
We asked Orton to throw for a 1st down, and he threw it short.
And on, and on.

So, we tried Orton a lot, and he hasn't worked a lot, maybe we should go a different direction Coach.

"...was that they were behind the Packers and needed Orton’s passing to catch up." Needed Orton's passing to catch up...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Tned]

I guess the flea flicker wasnt a "wrinkle", eh?

Just admit it.

TT gets 10 plays, youll want 20.

He had the whole field to do something, and he stuck his face in the ass of an Olineman.

Passing leagues dont need running qb's. See BVP.

Oh, I didn't realize you were privy to what the play call actually was, while the rest of us didn't. Must be cool being a Broncos insider.

What was the call? Obviously, he panicked and turned it into a QB draw, but I'm really curious now what McCoy called to use that "whole field."

[Tned]

Are we?

While you and i might agree Fox and Elway seem to think differently. :lol:

They have made it clear that their goal is to win games this season. As I've been saying in a number of threads, I honestly do not think that Fox and company are ready to write this season off.

[Northman]

Although they might not call it that, I think they know where we are. Elway has said it will take 3 years to return to the playoffs, or start winning. I think once we get a good QB/OC that is very realistic.

Your wrong, they say we can win now. :coffee:

[Northman]

They have made it clear that their goal is to win games this season. As I've been saying in a number of threads, I honestly do not think that Fox and company are ready to write this season off.

Yes, but you ask Clay and he says differently.

[Mike]

They have made it clear that their goal is to win games this season. As I've been saying in a number of threads, I honestly do not think that Fox and company are ready to write this season off.

Ready or not, that clock struck midnight. Continuing to attempt to sell that to the fans is only going to piss us off more.

[BroncoAV06]

I guess the flea flicker wasnt a "wrinkle", eh?

Just admit it.

TT gets 10 plays, youll want 20.

He had the whole field to do something, and he stuck his face in the ass of an Olineman.

Passing leagues dont need running qb's. See BVP.

If you read my other posts I mentioned how the fle-flicker worked and was a good wrinkle.

God forbid thinking outside the box. I never said Tebow should be the full time starter. Orton is sure lighting it up in this passing league. I love the number he puts up when the team is behind.

[Tned]

Yes, but you ask Clay and he says differently.


Ready or not, that clock struck midnight. Continuing to attempt to sell that to the fans is only going to piss us off more.

Unless they win Sunday and then make a real run at the West. String some wins together.

[Northman]

Unless they win Sunday and then make a real run at the West. String some wins together.


Proof is in the pudding as they say. I dont see them beating the Chargers and even if we squeeked one out im still not sold that we are contenders. But as you said, put some wins together than we can talk about taking the division.

[vandammage13]

Proof is in the pudding as they say. I dont see them beating the Chargers and even if we squeeked one out im still not sold that we are contenders. But as you said, put some wins together than we can talk about taking the division.

Exactly..at least win two games in a row before you start thinking that the division is even a remote possibility.

IF they can beat SD this week (and thats a big "IF"), then you have a good shot of going to Miami after the bye week and pulling out another victory.

Do that and you have what we like to call a "win streak." Can't even remember the last time we had one of those...The 2009 start maybe?

That being said, I don't see us beating SD, and we always lose in Miami no matter how much they suck. (I imagine Miami fans are looking at that game just like we are and thinking they can get that one, if that tells you how bad we are).

[Northman]

Exactly..at least win two games in a row before you start thinking that the division is even a remote possibility.

IF they can beat SD this week (and thats a big "IF"), then you have a good shot of going to Miami after the bye week and pulling out another victory.

Do that and you have what we like to call a "win streak." Can't even remember the last time we had one of those...The 2009 start maybe?

That being said, I don't see us beating SD, and we always lose in Miami no matter how much they suck. (I imagine Miami fans are looking at that game just like we are and thinking they can get that one, if that tells you how bad we are).


Indeed, i agree. The problem for Denver is it goes deeper than just the depth of talent on this team. Teams that are contenders also do the little things every week that enable them to win ballgames. Against Oakland we couldnt take advantage of their penalty problems. We had a bunch on our own and then the turnovers cost us. With Tenn and GB, turnovers again are a huge issue. We just cant seem to correct the little things that would go a long way to helping us win ballgames.

[Tned]

Proof is in the pudding as they say. I dont see them beating the Chargers and even if we squeeked one out im still not sold that we are contenders. But as you said, put some wins together than we can talk about taking the division.

I wouldn't mortgage my house, or even take my beer money, and bet on a Sunday win or AFC West title, but I think with healthy defense, the Broncos will be better than many fans giving them credit for.

[TXBRONC]

Unless they win Sunday and then make a real run at the West. String some wins together.


Proof is in the pudding as they say. I dont see them beating the Chargers and even if we squeeked one out im still not sold that we are contenders. But as you said, put some wins together than we can talk about taking the division.

Mathematically it gives a Denver some hope that the could squeak into the playoffs. Personnel wise I don't think it's realistic.

If Denver wins this game all it truly means Orton is the starter after the bye week.

[TXBRONC]

I wouldn't mortgage my house, or even take my beer money, and bet on a Sunday win or AFC West title, but I think with healthy defense, the Broncos will be better than many fans giving them credit for.

There seems to be some thought Denver has legitmate shot at beating the Chargers for several reasons.

1.) The Chargers haven't played particularly well against less teams.

2.) Rivers hasn't looked very sharp up to this point in the season.

3.) Their running game hasn't been all that great.

4.) Gates is still out.

[Northman]

There seems to be some thought Denver has legitmate shot at beating the Chargers for several reasons.

1.) The Chargers haven't played particularly well against less teams.

2.) Rivers hasn't looked very sharp up to this point in the season.

3.) Their running game hasn't been all that great.

4.) Gates is still out.


But we have Orton. We lose.

[vandammage13]

Indeed, i agree. The problem for Denver is it goes deeper than just the depth of talent on this team. Teams that are contenders also do the little things every week that enable them to win ballgames. Against Oakland we couldnt take advantage of their penalty problems. We had a bunch on our own and then the turnovers cost us. With Tenn and GB, turnovers again are a huge issue. We just cant seem to correct the little things that would go a long way to helping us win ballgames.

Unfortunately many of those turnovers are on our QB who one of his only remaining strong points was that he protects the ball.

Now he no longer even does that, so I'm not sure what he brings to the table anymore....A game manager that leads the league in TO's...baffiling to me.

Much more wrong with this team than KO, but it is the one position that a change can make the biggest difference.

Leaving the "Building for the future" argument aside, it is hard to justify starting Orton when he continually turns the ball over and puts our already suspect defense in bad situations.

[vandammage13]

I wouldn't mortgage my house, or even take my beer money, and bet on a Sunday win or AFC West title, but I think with healthy defense, the Broncos will be better than many fans giving them credit for.

The "health" argument can be made for a number of teams. Injuries are an inevitable factor each year.

The problem is we aren't deep enough at any defensive position to withstand an injury.

GB had as many injuries as anyone last year and still managed to win it all because they were deep (and they actually have a good QB).

The Broncos are not good...Period...No team has lost more games over the last 25 than has Denver. They are not better than we think.

I understand that the organization wants to win games...we all do..But at some point you have to come to grips with reality and realize where you are as a team.

Starting guys that won't be here next year in exchange for 6 wins (at most) while your younger players ride the bench does not help this team in the long run.

[Ravage!!!]

I wouldn't mortgage my house, or even take my beer money, and bet on a Sunday win or AFC West title, but I think with healthy defense, the Broncos will be better than many fans giving them credit for.

Even the Chiefs gave them a run. Its a division game. You never know whats going to happen.

[Northman]

GB had as many injuries as anyone last year and still managed to win it all because they were deep (and they actually have a good QB).



Even the Colts with all their problems last year made the playoffs still. Unfortuantely the injury excuse can only take you so far.

[TXBRONC]

But we have Orton. We lose.

I'm going to hypnotize Orton into either thinking that the game is just practice or that he's love child of Archie Manning and Clay. The key words with be "Winning duh."

[Tned]

Even the Colts with all their problems last year made the playoffs still. Unfortuantely the injury excuse can only take you so far.


The "health" argument can be made for a number of teams. Injuries are an inevitable factor each year.

The problem is we aren't deep enough at any defensive position to withstand an injury.

GB had as many injuries as anyone last year and still managed to win it all because they were deep (and they actually have a good QB).

The Broncos are not good...Period...No team has lost more games over the last 25 than has Denver. They are not better than we think.


The injury thing that I mentioned isn't an "excuse" it's reality with this team. We all know they have next to know depth at most positions. That's a result of McDaniels going scorched earth on the roster and not bringing in viable replacements.

So, it isn't a matter of "all teams deal with it" or "it isn't an excuse" or anything of the sort. Look at what I typed. IF the Broncos can get over some of their injuries and get the starters back on the field, they are a better defense than many give them credit.

I didn't say they were a great team. I stated before the season started that depth at key positions (most of defense and offensive line) was the biggest challenge to winning this season.

I know fans are in the dumper and want to just crap on the team. Fully understandable, the team earned it with their 23 losses in the last 30 games, but I stand by what I said, which is I believe if the starters get healthy on defense, they will be in, and have a chance to win, most of their remaining games.

[vandammage13]

The injury thing that I mentioned isn't an "excuse" it's reality with this team. We all know they have next to know depth at most positions. That's a result of McDaniels going scorched earth on the roster and not bringing in viable replacements.

So, it isn't a matter of "all teams deal with it" or "it isn't an excuse" or anything of the sort. Look at what I typed. IF the Broncos can get over some of their injuries and get the starters back on the field, they are a better defense than many give them credit.

I didn't say they were a great team. I stated before the season started that depth at key positions (most of defense and offensive line) was the biggest challenge to winning this season.

I know fans are in the dumper and want to just crap on the team. Fully understandable, the team earned it with their 23 losses in the last 30 games, but I stand by what I said, which is I believe if the starters get healthy on defense, they will be in, and have a chance to win, most of their remaining games.

I see what you are saying, however, even completely healthy I think this defense is still below average...Maybe not in talks for the worst in the league, but still bad.

When your best player is a nickel corner, you have problems.

[lgenf]

The injury thing that I mentioned isn't an "excuse" it's reality with this team. We all know they have next to know depth at most positions. That's a result of McDaniels going scorched earth on the roster and not bringing in viable replacements.

So, it isn't a matter of "all teams deal with it" or "it isn't an excuse" or anything of the sort. Look at what I typed. IF the Broncos can get over some of their injuries and get the starters back on the field, they are a better defense than many give them credit.

I didn't say they were a great team. I stated before the season started that depth at key positions (most of defense and offensive line) was the biggest challenge to winning this season.

I know fans are in the dumper and want to just crap on the team. Fully understandable, the team earned it with their 23 losses in the last 30 games, but I stand by what I said, which is I believe if the starters get healthy on defense, they will be in, and have a chance to win, most of their remaining games.

even with all our starters I feel we are outmatched in almost every position the rest of the year, that doesn't mean we can't get someone on a down day, but I see about 3 or 4 wins (or should I say, chances at wins)

[Mike]

Come on guys. We are 1-3 during the easiest part of the schedule. The only games they have a chance of winning will be @Mia, once against KC, and the Minnesota game. And I wouldn't put money on them for any of those games. :lol:

No identity, no system, bad OC, overall marginal talented players, mediocre QB that can't win a game even when a game is winnable, horrible secondary (even when Champ comes back), atrocius depth, players that hurt something when a strong wind blows. From top to bottom this is a team that is closer to being #1 in the draft than it is to being remotely competitive.

McD truly hosed this team and Bowlen exacerbated it by not hiring a real GM.

[Northman]

The injury thing that I mentioned isn't an "excuse" it's reality with this team. We all know they have next to know depth at most positions. That's a result of McDaniels going scorched earth on the roster and not bringing in viable replacements.

That comment was funny.


So, it isn't a matter of "all teams deal with it" or "it isn't an excuse" or anything of the sort. Look at what I typed. IF the Broncos can get over some of their injuries and get the starters back on the field, they are a better defense than many give them credit.

I didn't say they were a great team. I stated before the season started that depth at key positions (most of defense and offensive line) was the biggest challenge to winning this season.

I know fans are in the dumper and want to just crap on the team. Fully understandable, the team earned it with their 23 losses in the last 30 games, but I stand by what I said, which is I believe if the starters get healthy on defense, they will be in, and have a chance to win, most of their remaining games.

We shall see, i personally dont see it happening but whatever.