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getlynched47
10-03-2011, 11:42 AM
5 wins, 21 losses.

That's Kyle Orton's record over the last 26 games.

Kyle Orton is the only starting quarterback in the league with such a bad win/loss ratio.

Call me crazy, but I don't remember when quarterbacks where no longer judged by their win/loss record.

I'm not stupid, I know that football is a team sport. But I'm also not ignorant, I know head coaches and quarterbacks are ultimately judged by their wins and losses.

Isn't that why we complained about Jay Cutler? Isn't win/ loss the reason why Tony Sparano and Chad Henne are on the hot seat? Isn't that why we were somewhat hopeful when Kyle Orton first came to our team (20-12 record with the Bears)?

Enough is enough. Kyle Orton has had 30+ games to contribute to wins for our team. He hasn't. I'm not asking for Tim Tebow. I'm asking for a change.

Kyle Orton is the last link to the dreadful McDaniels era. Time to turn the page on those terrible days and move forward. Stop making excuses for Kyle Orton. Stop saying that Kyle Orton can be a good quarterback if "defense, running game, and special teams are playing well." If Kyle Orton needs a perfect game from 44 other players in order for him to win, he should not be a starting quarterback.

Whether it's fair for a QB to be judged by W/L is a debatable subject, but in the NFL that is definitely how they are judged.

/vent over.

Please keep the discussion about wins and losses, not passing yards and touchdowns.

Mike
10-03-2011, 11:47 AM
Dude, it aint bums fault.

If he only had a better defense. A better offensive line. A better RB. Better WRs. Better TEs. If only all three positions could catch the ball better. If the ST were better. If the other teams would read his dumb bum eyes and see which WR he has locked on to. If only the other teams wouldn't catch his bad passes and not run them in for TDs. If only they wouldn't recover his fumbles. If only they wouldn't blitz or apply any sort of general pressure. If only his defense could hold teams to less than 7 pts per game. You see it's not really his fault. The Broncos have put him in the position to fail.

He does give us the best chance to win though. Despite only winning 5 of the last however many games Denver has played. :coffee:

Northman
10-03-2011, 11:47 AM
While i dont use just the w/l to determine a QB's success i understand your post. Cutler was crucified for his record in Denver and Plummer was put on a pedestal because of his.

Agent of Orange
10-03-2011, 11:47 AM
Its not "his" record. QBs arent boxers. Philip Rivers is a much better QB than Joe Flacco and Mark Sanchez, yet there are no guarantees the Chargers will have a better record than the Jets or Ravens.

QBs shouldnt be ranked based on W-L. Thats stupid. QBs should be based on how they perform. If a game is winnable but a team wins or loses based on how the QB performs down the stretch of that game, you can maybe put that win or loss on a QB in varying degrees but its not an absolute and you definitely shouldnt be lookign at overall win %.

In Ortons case, I think we lose a lot of winnable games because of Orton's shortcomings. But since you cant apply this to all QBs, its a pointless basis for comparison. Again, Rivers is a much better QB than Flacco and Sanchez but its almost even money that the Jets and Ravens will win more than the Chargers.

I agree though, in Ortons case its not about yards. Ortons stats are pure fluff. Thats not true for all QBs though.

broncofaninfla
10-03-2011, 11:52 AM
It's obvious Orton isn't the future of this franchise, his evaluation period is done. This team won't even be in play off contention much less a Super Bowl this season. It's time to evaluate the other two QB's in REAL NFL GAMES NOT PRESAESON OR PRACTICE to see what we have. I'll be far more forgiving in Denver losing if they at least make the effort to change. Orton hasn't won many games this season and his trade stock has to have slipped to a 6 or 7th rounder by now. It was just plain stupid and ignorant to keep him and start him.

getlynched47
10-03-2011, 11:55 AM
QBs shouldnt be ranked based on W-L. Thats stupid. QBs should be based on how they perform. If a game is winnable but a team wins or loses based on how the QB performs down the stretch of that game, you can maybe put that win or loss on a QB in varying degrees but its not an absolute and you definitely shouldnt be lookign at overall win %.

Maybe they shouldn't be, but they are. That's the whole point.

If they weren't judged on Win/Loss, Mark Sanchez would've been replaced a long ass time ago.

Sanchez sucks, but his team still wins. Rex Ryan isn't stupid and knows this. Yet you will not see Mark Sanchez benched unless the Jets start to lose consistently. Guaranteed.

MOtorboat
10-03-2011, 11:57 AM
No one says they shouldn't be.

There's no one better on the roster to play quarterback, though. Sorry.

BroncoWave
10-03-2011, 12:00 PM
No one says they shouldn't be.

There's no one better on the roster to play quarterback, though. Sorry.

According to practices? Yeah, cool story bro.

broncofaninfla
10-03-2011, 12:01 PM
If I hear the Denver brass say Orton gives us the best chance to win I'm going to go postal. We are LOSING and have been for a while. Orton isn't our weakest link but he is one of the peices that needs to be replaced. I saw enough of Tebow last season to know we are in better hands with him. I'm also open to seeing Quinn to see what he can do. Anybody but Orton......

GEM
10-03-2011, 12:04 PM
When their name is Kyle Freaking Orton. :lol:

Lancane
10-03-2011, 12:04 PM
While i dont use just the w/l to determine a QB's success i understand your post. Cutler was crucified for his record in Denver and Plummer was put on a pedestal because of his.

Cutler has more wins then Orton, so much for him being a winner and Cutler being a loser!

:laugh:

Agent of Orange
10-03-2011, 12:10 PM
If I hear the Denver brass say Orton gives us the best chance to win I'm going to go postal. We are LOSING and have been for a while. Orton isn't our weakest link but he is one of the peices that needs to be replaced. I saw enough of Tebow last season to know we are in better hands with him. I'm also open to seeing Quinn to see what he can do. Anybody but Orton......

I don't see how you can say this. Orton is the only guy on the team who repeatedly fails in the same situation like he does. He also plays a position whose performence in those situations strongly influences outcomes. To wit, we've played 4 games this year and 3 of them were winnable. We would have won all of them if Orton wasn't Orton.

rationalfan
10-03-2011, 12:25 PM
To wit, we've played 4 games this year and 3 of them were winnable. We would have won all of them if Orton wasn't Orton.

i'm so glad your inside perspective is telling me that quarterback is the biggest problem on this team. funny how someone on the team wouldn't notice all the other holes in the roster.

yes, i'm being a bit of a dick. but, i think, if anybody on this board was actually part of the team they'd realize QB isn't the only problem. i don't even think it's the biggest problem.

orton is an average nfl QB - above average with McD's tutelage, ironically. but if he played above average yesterday denver still would have lost by 14.

i'm not an orton fan. and i understand using him as a focal point to vent; but i'm sick of the guy being blamed for the state of the team. he's A problem; not THE problem.

this team has no depth on a defensive unit that isn't good. it's offensive line is mediocre. the running backs are average - at best. and injuries are killing the team - not an excuse, but fact.

the truest thing that can be said about the broncos is its a really bad team. and i don't think QB is the weakest part of the program. after watching the reserve Dbacks, depth in the secondary might be the biggest problem - especially in a league that's going pass first.

but, whatever, this post won't change anything. so let the orton bashing continue; just please don't pretend this team would be a winner with tebow, quinn, drew brees or roger staubach leading the offense. i don't even believe elway or peyton could take this team to the playoffs.

SM19
10-03-2011, 12:30 PM
Can those of us who didn't complain about Cutler, and didn't see Orton's win-loss record as much reason for optimism, continue treating wins and losses as team stats?

Agent of Orange
10-03-2011, 12:31 PM
i'm so glad your inside perspective is telling me that quarterback is the biggest problem on this team. funny how someone on the team wouldn't notice all the other holes in the roster.

yes, i'm being a bit of a dick. but, i think, if anybody on this board was actually part of the team they'd realize QB isn't the only problem. i don't even think it's the biggest problem.

orton is an average nfl QB - above average with McD's tutelage, ironically. but if he played above average yesterday denver still would have lost by 14.

i'm not an orton fan. and i understand using him as a focal point to vent; but i'm sick of the guy being blamed for the state of the team. he's A problem; not THE problem.

this team has no depth on a defensive unit that isn't good. it's offensive line is mediocre. the running backs are average - at best. and injuries are killing the team - not an excuse, but fact.

the truest thing that can be said about the broncos is its a really bad team. and i don't think QB is the weakest part of the program. after watching the reserve Dbacks, depth in the secondary might be the biggest problem - especially in a league that's going pass first.

but, whatever, this post won't change anything. so let the orton bashing continue; just please don't pretend this team would be a winner with tebow, quinn, drew brees or roger staubach leading the offense. i don't even believe elway or peyton could take this team to the playoffs.

Wow, as far as Orton apologists go, you are by far one of the most verbose.

girler
10-03-2011, 12:34 PM
If I hear the Denver brass say Orton gives us the best chance to win I'm going to go postal. We are LOSING and have been for a while. Orton isn't our weakest link but he is one of the peices that needs to be replaced. I saw enough of Tebow last season to know we are in better hands with him. I'm also open to seeing Quinn to see what he can do. Anybody but Orton......

I'm open to digging up my dead grandma and seeing if she's a zombie. I'm sure if that's the case, she'd be a better QB. She sure had more moxie than KO ever will.

GEM
10-03-2011, 01:03 PM
yes, i'm being a bit of a dick.

What's new?

Watchthemiddle
10-03-2011, 01:10 PM
I get that Orton doesn't play defense or special teams. I get that arguement.

However, he does play QB and is the leader of the offense. He has the ability to call plays, audible, make decisions while reading defenses....etc.

The Defense and ST can't be changed overnight. Not enough depth.

The QB can be changed overnight. That is one of the rare spots on this team where the Broncos could make a change based off of the poor performance of the current player in that position. It's just a small step towards rebuilding this team based off of the depth or lack there of that we have now.

Baby steps

BroncoStud
10-03-2011, 01:16 PM
the truest thing that can be said about the broncos is its a really bad team. and i don't think QB is the weakest part of the program. after watching the reserve Dbacks, depth in the secondary might be the biggest problem - especially in a league that's going pass first.



So our backup CBs are to blame for Orton's interceptions, fumbles, and shortcomings... :laugh::laugh::laugh:

You think that is REALLY a "rational" opinion?

rationalfan
10-03-2011, 01:56 PM
So our backup CBs are to blame for Orton's interceptions, fumbles, and shortcomings... :laugh::laugh::laugh:

You think that is REALLY a "rational" opinion?

you're jumping to conclusions. read the post. the point was orton is one of many problems and i believe he's not the biggest problem on the team.

as for other responses to my original post:
- i'm not an orton apologist; he's not good, i admit that. i'm also not myopic enough to believe he's the reason for every negative aspect of the team. as i wrote, i don't think this team would win with a good quarterback; there are too many other shortcomings on this roster.
- GEM suggested i'm always a "dick." fair enough. guess i fit in well with with the majority of the overreactive aholes on this board.

BroncoStud
10-03-2011, 01:59 PM
Only a truly unobservant fan would say that Orton is the BIGGEST problem on the team. He's not. However, sometimes it is just painfully obvious that change is needed. Orton has a very poor record in Denver, of which he isn't the BIGGEST problem, but he is undoubtedly a problem. This year he has played a large role in 2 of our losses and his turnovers didn't help yesterday much at all.

Playing him does this organization nothing going forward. Play for the future. At least SEE what Tebow has before you enter the offseason.

GEM
10-03-2011, 02:00 PM
you're jumping to conclusions. read the post. the point was orton is one of many problems and i believe he's not the biggest problem on the team.

as for other responses to my original post:
- i'm not an orton apologist; he's not good, i admit that. i'm also not myopic enough to believe he's the reason for every negative aspect of the team. as i wrote, i don't think this team would win with a good quarterback; there are too many other shortcomings on this roster.
- GEM suggested i'm always a "dick." fair enough. guess i fit in well with with the majority of the overreactive aholes on this board.

It's been said in MANY threads today. Orton is not the only problem. The whole team is a problem. But there is someone sitting behind him that has a long term contract here that we need to see if he can play or not. Orton is out at the end of the season. We have seen what he can do. For the longevity of this franchise, we should be evaluating Tebow for the next draft. Also, the other suck ass players on this team don't have backups that could be better than them so we are essentially stuck with them until we either draft someone to take their place or pick up a FA to take their place.

You said you were a dick, I just agreed.

rationalfan
10-03-2011, 02:00 PM
I get that Orton doesn't play defense or special teams. I get that arguement.

However, he does play QB and is the leader of the offense. He has the ability to call plays, audible, make decisions while reading defenses....etc.

The Defense and ST can't be changed overnight. Not enough depth.

The QB can be changed overnight. That is one of the rare spots on this team where the Broncos could make a change based off of the poor performance of the current player in that position. It's just a small step towards rebuilding this team based off of the depth or lack there of that we have now.

Baby steps

but that suggests the other options are better than orton. i'm not saying they are; i truly don't know (and for those who claim to know, that's your opinion, not fact).

while tebow might be great (and i hope he is, it's better for the franchise), it's hard to believe the team would hold back a player who's "great" or even "better than orton" on a team that has a very small chance of making the postseason. logic suggests tebow isn't good enough to run this offense.

Bullgator
10-03-2011, 02:02 PM
According to practices? Yeah, cool story bro.

practices that are geared towards 7on7 pocket flag football, KO specialty

rationalfan
10-03-2011, 02:04 PM
It's been said in MANY threads today. Orton is not the only problem. The whole team is a problem. But there is someone sitting behind him that has a long term contract here that we need to see if he can play or not. Orton is out at the end of the season. We have seen what he can do. For the longevity of this franchise, we should be evaluating Tebow for the next draft. Also, the other suck ass players on this team don't have backups that could be better than them so we are essentially stuck with them until we either draft someone to take their place or pick up a FA to take their place.

You said you were a dick, I just agreed.

point #1: contracts should never be the reason a player makes it onto the field.
point #2: most NFL contracts are not guaranteed. yes, signing bonuses are; but as people who get paid to cover the NFL have written, first round picks see most of their money in year two. after that, it's not a big payday without incentive-driven clauses. point is, regardless of whether we're talking about tebow or robert ayers, their money isn't guaranteed.
point #3: i didn't say i was dick. i said i was being a dick. big distinction between the two.

rationalfan
10-03-2011, 02:05 PM
practices that are geared towards 7on7 pocket flag football, KO specialty

devil's advocate time: what does it say about tebow or quinn if they can't outperform orton in the same 7on7 pocket flag football practices?

TXBRONC
10-03-2011, 02:06 PM
you're jumping to conclusions. read the post. the point was orton is one of many problems and i believe he's not the biggest problem on the team.

as for other responses to my original post:
- i'm not an orton apologist; he's not good, i admit that. i'm also not myopic enough to believe he's the reason for every negative aspect of the team. as i wrote, i don't think this team would win with a good quarterback; there are too many other shortcomings on this roster.
- GEM suggested i'm always a "dick." fair enough. guess i fit in well with with the majority of the overreactive aholes on this board.

Saying he's part of problem but not attempting to to do something about it doesn't make sense. There is a possible solution sitting on the bench. If you don't think we could win even with a good quarterback then what's the problem in seeing what Tebow can do?

MileHighCrew
10-03-2011, 02:06 PM
No one says they shouldn't be.

There's no one better on the roster to play quarterback, though. Sorry.

According to everyone except the fan this is correct. :tsk:

GEM
10-03-2011, 02:08 PM
point #1: contracts should never be the reason a player makes it onto the field.
point #2: most NFL contracts are not guaranteed. yes, signing bonuses are; but as people who get paid to cover the NFL have written, first round picks see most of their money in year two. after that, it's not a big payday without incentive-driven clauses. point is, regardless of whether we're talking about tebow or robert ayers, their money isn't guaranteed.
point #3: i didn't say i was dick. i said i was being a dick. big distinction between the two.


When you are a losing franchise in the middle of a rebuild, you need to know who you have on your roster. YOu need to find out if they just aren't practice players. YOu need to EVALUATE. Something this team seems pretty weak at.

You said you were being a dick, I agreed and added that it was nothing new. That's my opinion. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but that's the way I see it. The arrogance in your posts gives the persona that you are a dick.

Bullgator
10-03-2011, 02:16 PM
devil's advocate time: what does it say about tebow or quinn if they can't outperform orton in the same 7on7 pocket flag football practices?

because thats not Tebows game. Tebow is a reactive, hybrid player who is able to threaten with his running ability... an ability that he can not use in practice. He can not use his physicality. He can not use his innovative adlibbing. He can only go through a set dead motion as a pocket QB that he has never been.

KO has had 7 years of doing this in the NFL and TT has had not even 1 full year. To think that TT will go out and beat KO at his own meaningless game in practice is moronic... equally as moronic as believing that such a set practice means that KO is a better QB in game time.

rationalfan
10-03-2011, 02:49 PM
When you are a losing franchise in the middle of a rebuild, you need to know who you have on your roster. YOu need to find out if they just aren't practice players. YOu need to EVALUATE. Something this team seems pretty weak at.

You said you were being a dick, I agreed and added that it was nothing new. That's my opinion. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but that's the way I see it. The arrogance in your posts gives the persona that you are a dick.

of course i'm arrogant. but judging by the posts of many people on this forum, so are they; about their opinions, about their beliefs, about their lives.

i have different opinions, see the world through a different perspective. it doesn't make me more arrogant than the people who call their board peers out on everything they don't agree with. perhaps i'm simply fine with admitting my arrogance. perhaps i'm a dick. either way, it's cool.

BroncoStud
10-03-2011, 02:52 PM
When you are a losing franchise in the middle of a rebuild, you need to know who you have on your roster. YOu need to find out if they just aren't practice players. YOu need to EVALUATE. Something this team seems pretty weak at.



Are we really in the middle of a rebuild? Fox seems to think he is here to win NOW. I don't see how starting Kyle Orton, at this point, helps us rebuild anything or evaluate our QB options going forward.

rationalfan
10-03-2011, 02:52 PM
because thats not Tebows game. Tebow is a reactive, hybrid player who is able to threaten with his running ability... an ability that he can not use in practice. He can not use his physicality. He can not use his innovative adlibbing. He can only go through a set dead motion as a pocket QB that he has never been.

KO has had 7 years of doing this in the NFL and TT has had not even 1 full year. To think that TT will go out and beat KO at his own meaningless game in practice is moronic... equally as moronic as believing that such a set practice means that KO is a better QB in game time.

perhaps you're right. but in my limited experience with organized sports, few people who practiced poorly made it into the game (excluding track and field, where everyone seemingly slacked in practice). is that right? maybe not. it's just the way it was; particularly with old school coaches.

GEM
10-03-2011, 02:53 PM
of course i'm arrogant. but judging by the posts of many people on this forum, so are they; about their opinions, about their beliefs, about their lives.

i have different opinions, see the world through a different perspective. it doesn't make me more arrogant than the people who call their board peers out on everything they don't agree with. perhaps i'm simply fine with admitting my arrogance. perhaps i'm a dick. either way, it's cool.

I didn't say there was an issue with it. It is cool. I just agreed with ya. It really didn't need to open up all this dialogue. :lol:

GEM
10-03-2011, 02:53 PM
Are we really in the middle of a rebuild? Fox seems to think he is here to win NOW. I don't see how starting Kyle Orton, at this point, helps us rebuild anything or evaluate our QB options going forward.

If this isn't a freaking rebuild, it's a freaking nightmare and I want my blankie!!!

slim
10-03-2011, 02:55 PM
Are we really in the middle of a rebuild? Fox seems to think he is here to win NOW. I don't see how starting Kyle Orton, at this point, helps us rebuild anything or evaluate our QB options going forward.

This is what is frustrating to me. It is obvious that this team is in full rebuild mode, yet Fox seems unable to understand it (he may be the only one).

The way he is approaching this season is silly (and short-sighted).

Still, I wont be upset as long as we get a good look at the two backup QB's at some point. Maybe give them each 5 games to show what they can do? Or maybe give Quinn one game and the rest to Tebow :hi:

GEM
10-03-2011, 02:58 PM
This is what is frustrating to me. It is obvious that this team is in full rebuild mode, yet Fox seems unable to understand it (he may be the only one).

The way he is approaching this season is silly (and short-sighted).

Still, I wont be upset as long as we get a good look at the two backup QB's at some point. Maybe give them each 5 games to show what they can do? Or maybe give Quinn one game and the rest to Tebow :hi:

Or just give Quinn a ticket to Les Mis and a steam bath and call it a season.

BroncoStud
10-03-2011, 03:03 PM
We saw the real Brady Quinn in week for of Preseason. Scared shitless in the backfield at the hint of pressure, indecisive, and inaccurate with any sort of pressure on him. I've seen enough of him to move on. Tebow needs to be evaluated in game situations. Once that is done this franchise can realistically rebuild going forward.

John Fox is really making it difficult for me to support his hiring at this point.

MNPatsFan
10-03-2011, 03:10 PM
Being a neutral third-party, doesn't this part of your post
The whole team is a problem. But there is someone sitting behind him that has a long term contract here that we need to see if he can play or not. Orton is out at the end of the season. We have seen what he can do. For the longevity of this franchise, we should be evaluating Tebow for the next draft.completely contradict this part?


Also, the other suck ass players on this team don't have backups that could be better than them so we are essentially stuck with them until we either draft someone to take their place or pick up a FA to take their place.If the Orton is a suck ass player who in the opinion of the coach and front office doesn't have a backup that could be better than him, why should he be treated differently?:confused:

Using your logic, the Broncos should replace ALL their suck ass players, not just Orton, to evaluate the backups for the next draft.

GEM
10-03-2011, 03:15 PM
Being a neutral third-party, doesn't this part of your postcompletely contradict this part?

If the Orton is a suck ass player who in the opinion of the coach and front office doesn't have a backup that could be better than him, why should he be treated differently?:confused:

Using your logic, the Broncos should replace ALL their suck ass players, not just Orton, to evaluate the backups for the next draft.

The other positions don't have QUESTION MARKS for backups. Orton does.

And the Broncos should replace ALL their suck ass players. We just don't have the depth to do so.

Thanks so much for that McMoron from your organization. :D

Mike
10-03-2011, 03:20 PM
So far today I have had fans from the Chiefs, Raiders, Texans, Cowboys, Steelers, and Packers all in my office wanting to know why our team hasn't played Tebow.

GEM
10-03-2011, 03:21 PM
So far today I have had fans from the Chiefs, Raiders, Texans, Cowboys, Steelers, and Packers all in my office wanting to know why our team hasn't played Tebow.

It's the million dollar question.

MNPatsFan
10-03-2011, 03:36 PM
So far today I have had fans from the Chiefs, Raiders, Texans, Cowboys, Steelers, and Packers all in my office wanting to know why our team hasn't played Tebow.Based on what I have heard from several former players who still have strong connections in the NFL, it might be because a number of NFL scouts for various teams have mentioned to those former players that Tebow was the 3rd or 4th best QB in training camp based on performance. Is this true, I honestly don't know. Just responding to your post with some information I have heard and you can do with it what you want.

I don't have a stake in this situation and personally would like to see Tim Tebow or even Adam Weber play to see what they can do.

BroncoStud
10-03-2011, 03:48 PM
So far today I have had fans from the Chiefs, Raiders, Texans, Cowboys, Steelers, and Packers all in my office wanting to know why our team hasn't played Tebow.

Didn't you get the memo Mike? Kyle Orton gives us the best chance to win.

Northman
10-03-2011, 03:56 PM
Based on what I have heard from several former players who still have strong connections in the NFL, it might be because a number of NFL scouts for various teams have mentioned to those former players that Tebow was the 3rd or 4th best QB in training camp based on performance.

Tebow was never the "4th best", that was a rumor that got squashed immediately. But these are also the same guys who said Orton was "lights out" in training camp as well and then we see what has unfolded during the season so far which is quite to the contrary. But what they dont tell you is while Tebow did struggle in TC he was basically playing with what is probably the worst backups in the NFL currently and he worked with them 90% of the time opposed to Orton. Tebow and Quinn got very little time with the starters in TC and Preseason as opposed to guys like Newton (who still stunk in Preseason).

Shazam!
10-03-2011, 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by MNPatsFan
Based on what I have heard from several former players who still have strong connections in the NFL, it might be because a number of NFL scouts for various teams have mentioned to those former players that Tebow was the 3rd or 4th best QB in training camp based on performance.

Thanks for the 'inside scoop, wow lol.

You sure they dont work for ESPN?

getlynched47
10-03-2011, 04:17 PM
Dictionary.com

Kyle Orton = Practice phenom. Practice prodigy.

getlynched47
10-03-2011, 04:20 PM
The QB can be changed overnight. That is one of the rare spots on this team where the Broncos could make a change based off of the poor performance of the current player in that position. It's just a small step towards rebuilding this team based off of the depth or lack there of that we have now.

Baby steps

Food for thought:

The 2006 Titans started 0-5

They inserted Vince Young as the starting QB in week 6, and he proceeded to go 8-3. That debunks your suggestion that changing one position can't/ won't have a huge impact for our team.

Replacing Kyle Orton is definitely not a fix-all approach. I don't think anybody ever said it was. But it can definitely make a difference.

But it's easier to change one position and hope for better results than try and change multiple positions during the season and hope things start working for us.

Especially when we clearly see that Kyle Orton is struggling, and playing as average as he ever has.

echobravo
10-03-2011, 04:58 PM
Especially when we clearly see that Kyle Orton is struggling, and playing as average as he ever has.

You do a profound injustice to the word average when describing Orton's play this year!

getlynched47
10-03-2011, 06:16 PM
By the way, Baseball is also a team game. But starting pitchers are judged by their Win/Loss.

That statistic is used religiously by MLB scouts and analysts.

I think Quarterback is a more important position to football than starting pitcher is to baseball.

That being the case, it makes no sense at all to NOT use Win/ Loss to judge a quarterback. JMO.

Juriga72
10-03-2011, 06:43 PM
Food for thought:

The 2006 Titans started 0-5

They inserted Vince Young as the starting QB in week 6, and he proceeded to go 8-3. That debunks your suggestion that changing one position can't/ won't have a huge impact for our team.

Replacing Kyle Orton is definitely not a fix-all approach. I don't think anybody ever said it was. But it can definitely make a difference.

But it's easier to change one position and hope for better results than try and change multiple positions during the season and hope things start working for us.

Especially when we clearly see that Kyle Orton is struggling, and playing as average as he ever has.

Uh.... It was 2009 when that happened....AND BTW...LOL Vince Young was named to the Pro Bowl OVER Ortonary.....LOL

girler
10-03-2011, 06:44 PM
So far today I have had fans from the Chiefs, Raiders, Texans, Cowboys, Steelers, and Packers all in my office wanting to know why our team hasn't played Tebow.

What did you tell them? Enquiring minds want to know. :decision: :questionmark:

Juriga72
10-03-2011, 06:45 PM
By the way, Baseball is also a team game. But starting pitchers are judged by their Win/Loss.

That statistic is used religiously by MLB scouts and analysts.

I think Quarterback is a more important position to football than starting pitcher is to baseball.

That being the case, it makes no sense at all to NOT use Win/ Loss to judge a quarterback. JMO.

According to NFL.com.... Here are some NFL Records categories

"Wins by Starting QB"
"Come from behind/4th quarter comeback Wins by a QB"....

SO yeah...EVEN the record book at the NFL has "Wins as a Starting Quarterback"........

BUT.... For Kyle Orton Wins/Losses dont matter

Mike
10-03-2011, 07:33 PM
What did you tell them? Enquiring minds want to know. :decision: :questionmark:

That our coach is stuck in the Jurassic Period.

BroncoJoe
10-03-2011, 07:38 PM
QB's always have, and always will be judged by wins and losses.

/thread

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getlynched47
10-03-2011, 08:34 PM
Uh.... It was 2009 when that happened....AND BTW...LOL Vince Young was named to the Pro Bowl OVER Ortonary.....LOL

Uh....No. That was 2006, Vince Young's rookie year.

Juriga72
10-03-2011, 09:32 PM
Uh....No. That was 2006, Vince Young's rookie year.

Not arguing...BUT... it was the 2009 season.... They started 0-6 and finished 8-2 when they benched Collins....

Hell...... Young did it TWICE then...LOL I just checked his 2006 year..they ALSO started out 0-5 and went 8-3 then...LMAO

AND he still did make the Pro Bowl over Ortonary......:)

Sinthor
10-03-2011, 10:22 PM
i'm so glad your inside perspective is telling me that quarterback is the biggest problem on this team. funny how someone on the team wouldn't notice all the other holes in the roster.

yes, i'm being a bit of a dick. but, i think, if anybody on this board was actually part of the team they'd realize QB isn't the only problem. i don't even think it's the biggest problem.

orton is an average nfl QB - above average with McD's tutelage, ironically. but if he played above average yesterday denver still would have lost by 14.

i'm not an orton fan. and i understand using him as a focal point to vent; but i'm sick of the guy being blamed for the state of the team. he's A problem; not THE problem.

this team has no depth on a defensive unit that isn't good. it's offensive line is mediocre. the running backs are average - at best. and injuries are killing the team - not an excuse, but fact.

the truest thing that can be said about the broncos is its a really bad team. and i don't think QB is the weakest part of the program. after watching the reserve Dbacks, depth in the secondary might be the biggest problem - especially in a league that's going pass first.

but, whatever, this post won't change anything. so let the orton bashing continue; just please don't pretend this team would be a winner with tebow, quinn, drew brees or roger staubach leading the offense. i don't even believe elway or peyton could take this team to the playoffs.

to make it all about how the team as a whole has to improve, not just poor Kyle Orton. I haven't seen anyone say we'd be a Super Bowl team or anything close but for Orton. Nope, but I think you said it yourself. The o-line is mediocre, the defense is mediocre (a vast improvement from last year). We do have very good receivers and the run game is poor to mediocre. That's a recipe for a team to have between 6 and 9 wins usually.

Oh, but I forgot...we have an absolutely LOUSY QB in the game right now! Hey, I USED to believe that Orton was average, even better than average. But he's not playing to that level and hasn't been for some time. He is playing POORLY. That's why a lot of people think that the last 3 games of the year last year were much closer than they would have been with Orton. That's why people believe from what they've seen that Tebow could at least play to Orton's level right now, and probably better. That's the reason they want to see if Tebow can develop to be BETTER and hopefully fill one position of need on the team so that no further high draft picks have to be wasted on a gamble at the QB position. If he can, great! Good for the team. If not, great! The team knows exactly where to go with a high draft pick in a seemingly QB rich draft. What's so hard to understand. People are just hoping for a change and would LOVE to see true average play at QB. They'd have hope for better in the future then, or know they needed to move on. Period.

People need to quit making excuses for Orton. Even the game against Green Bay should have been much closer. It begged for a shootout. Orton couldn't deliver even with little pressure in his face which is USUALLY the death knell for him. He can't do it. He's done. Put the kid in and let's see what the future holds. It's an outside chance, but just POSSIBLE that everyone would be a lot happier that way. If not, and Tebow stinks up the joint. Move on faster than Merrill Hodge can blink!

Sinthor
10-03-2011, 10:25 PM
Only a truly unobservant fan would say that Orton is the BIGGEST problem on the team. He's not. However, sometimes it is just painfully obvious that change is needed. Orton has a very poor record in Denver, of which he isn't the BIGGEST problem, but he is undoubtedly a problem. This year he has played a large role in 2 of our losses and his turnovers didn't help yesterday much at all.

Playing him does this organization nothing going forward. Play for the future. At least SEE what Tebow has before you enter the offseason.

Absolutely. People fail to see that most of us KNOW there are other problems with this team. 2+ years however, are more than enough of an audition. If Champ Bailey was getting made into toast consistently for two years we'd be screaming for HIM to be replaced. There's plenty of criticism this year for Dawk and others too. How is Orton somehow magically immune to all of it?

Sinthor
10-03-2011, 10:29 PM
devil's advocate time: what does it say about tebow or quinn if they can't outperform orton in the same 7on7 pocket flag football practices?

Tell me which and how many rookie or second year guys have truly beat out a decent established veteran QB in training camp, etc. to become the starter. It doesn't happen often at all. The only reason young guys like that start are because the team takes the chance (like the Broncos tried to do to start the year), the vet retires, or the vet gets hurt. Bradford couldn't beat out AJ Feely last year until Feely got hurt. Rothlisburger didn't start the year. Sanchez, Flacco and Ryan got their shots because there was no other viable option. Same with Newton this year. Give me a break man. How does this happen for nearly every other young QB in the league (and I'd say "every" because I can't remember any but I'm sure there's been at least ONE) but somehow Tebow sucks because it didn't happen for him? Tell me that.

MNPatsFan
10-03-2011, 10:34 PM
Thanks for the 'inside scoop, wow lol.

You sure they dont work for ESPN?Wasn't trying to give the "inside scoop". Just relaying what I heard. And no the former players I am talking about do not work for ESPN.

As I said, I was merely passing along what the former players claimed the scouts had told them, not vouching for the accuracy of what they said.

Agent of Orange
10-04-2011, 07:38 PM
QB's always have, and always will be judged by wins and losses.

/thread

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You need to get back on the runway and have another go at getting your plane in the air.

BroncoJoe
10-04-2011, 07:40 PM
You need to get back on the runway and have another go at getting your plane in the air.

:confused:

Sounds to me like your plane simply went down.

There weren't no survivors....

Agent of Orange
10-04-2011, 07:43 PM
Based on what I have heard from several former players who still have strong connections in the NFL, it might be because a number of NFL scouts for various teams have mentioned to those former players that Tebow was the 3rd or 4th best QB in training camp based on performance. Is this true, I honestly don't know. Just responding to your post with some information I have heard and you can do with it what you want.

I don't have a stake in this situation and personally would like to see Tim Tebow or even Adam Weber play to see what they can do.

Welcome to two months ago. Its amusing that you think this is some revelation. The performence in training camp has been often discussed.

Agent of Orange
10-04-2011, 07:44 PM
:confused:

Sounds to me like your plane simply went down.

There weren't no survivors....

Then you're deaf.

horsepig
10-04-2011, 09:07 PM
devil's advocate time: what does it say about tebow or quinn if they can't outperform orton in the same 7on7 pocket flag football practices?

:frusty:

DenBronx
10-04-2011, 09:25 PM
This thread would have been better if the same posters that said Cutler needed to get traded based on his record in Denver were still posting!

Where are they now?


They stuck around to rub it in our faces when we traded our FCQB but didnt stick around to back Orton when he has only won 5 games. :rolleyes:

TXBRONC
10-04-2011, 10:23 PM
This thread would have been better if the same posters that said Cutler needed to get traded based on his record in Denver were still posting!

Where are they now?


They stuck around to rub it in our faces when we traded our FCQB but didnt stick around to back Orton when he has only won 5 games. :rolleyes:

That's really neither here nor there because the reality Orton's record counts for him as much as it does for the other 31 starters in the League.

MOtorboat
10-04-2011, 10:29 PM
That's really neither here nor there because the reality Orton's record counts for him as much as it does for the other 31 starters in the League.

I'm one that was OK with the trade and cited said argument.

I was clearly wrong. I'm not going to defend Orton, I'm going to stick to my opinion that win/loss record matters.

That said, I don't think Denver has a choice right now. He's the best quarterback on the roster. That doesn't say much, though.

TXBRONC
10-04-2011, 10:38 PM
I'm one that was OK with the trade and cited said argument.

I was clearly wrong. I'm not going to defend Orton, I'm going to stick to my opinion that win/loss record matters.

That said, I don't think Denver has a choice right now. He's the best quarterback on the roster. That doesn't say much, though.

I respect that. Now I think at some point if we keep losing the argument that Orton is the best quarterback on the roster wont wash. What would that matter if there is nothing to play for? Fox and Elway should find out for sure if Tebow be refined into a solid starting quarterback.

MOtorboat
10-04-2011, 10:47 PM
I respect that. Now I think at some point if we keep losing the argument that Orton is the best quarterback on the roster wont wash. What would that matter if there is nothing to play for? Fox and Elway should find out for sure if Tebow be refined into a solid starting quarterback.

At the same time, I worry about setting Tebow up to fail versus setting him up to succeed.

I don't like the idea of throwing him in there for the hell of it. (again, don't confuse that with my argument that if you ARE going to play him, don't play him in gimmick packages, play him at quarterback).

TXBRONC
10-04-2011, 11:05 PM
At the same time, I worry about setting Tebow up to fail versus setting him up to succeed.

I don't like the idea of throwing him in there for the hell of it. (again, don't confuse that with my argument that if you ARE going to play him, don't play him in gimmick packages, play him at quarterback).

If Elway is seriously thinking of drafting a quarterback in the next draft then he needs to know.

MOtorboat
10-04-2011, 11:24 PM
If Elway is seriously thinking of drafting a quarterback in the next draft then he needs to know.

He may know. I know fans want to see him, but let's not think that the only way to evaluate a player is when he's performing in public.

You want to see. Elway may already know.

getlynched47
10-07-2011, 05:16 PM
Orton is the best quarterback on the roster. That doesn't say much, though.

.........in practice :coffee:

Kerry Collins was the best QB on the Titans roster in 2006. Vince Young outplayed him when given the chance. Who's to say that Quinn or Tebow wouldn't do the same?

Ravage!!!
10-07-2011, 05:20 PM
.........in practice :coffee:

Kerry Collins was the best QB on the Titans roster in 2006. Vince Young outplayed him when given the chance. Who's to say that Quinn or Tebow wouldn't do the same?

EVERY player gets evaluated at practice. Vince Young was close enough, that he was given the chance. The problem is, Tebow apparently can't show that he's ready enough to convince the staff that he can run the offense. The coaches aren't going to put a player that can't run the right plays in practice, during a game, base on "just cause."

getlynched47
10-07-2011, 05:24 PM
EVERY player gets evaluated at practice. Vince Young was close enough, that he was given the chance. The problem is, Tebow apparently can't show that he's ready enough to convince the staff that he can run the offense. The coaches aren't going to put a player that can't run the right plays in practice, during a game, base on "just cause."

Where have we ever seen anything about Tebow or Quinn not running the right plays in practice?

I'll dig up the articles from 2006, but there were a TON of articles talking about how far ahead Kerry Collins was of Vince Young, based on practice and preseason.

The competition between Collins and Young wasn't even close. Young was erratic in the pocket, making poor decisions, and always wanting to run with the ball. Sounds familiar, ay?

Ravage!!!
10-07-2011, 05:33 PM
Where have we ever seen anything about Tebow or Quinn not running the right plays in practice?

I'll dig up the articles from 2006, but there were a TON of articles talking about how far ahead Kerry Collins was of Vince Young, based on practice and preseason.

The competition between Collins and Young wasn't even close. Young was erratic in the pocket, making poor decisions, and always wanting to run with the ball. Sounds familiar, ay?

Let me respeak.

Its been reported that Tebow isn't able to run the offense. He's not making the right pre-snap reads, isn't able to make the right identifications on blitzes (thus not making the adjustments at the LoS), and isn't throwing the ball to the right receiver (meaning the one that he SHOULD be throwing to pre-determined by the defensive coverage), and then not hitting the reeceiver once he does throw it. I don't mean he's running the "wrong plays" as you just stated...but if he's not throwing to the right guy, thats not running the offense.

Also... Vince Young is a BAD QB. Its why he's still third string on the Eagles. Its a large reason why no teams were jumping to sign him this year. It's why the only team that was high on drafting him, was the Titans (and the coache didn't want to draft him). He's not good. So I hope you aren't saying that we could have a Vince Young on our team, because that just makes the point foe EVERY person that stated that TEbow is not ready for the NFL.

Slick
10-07-2011, 05:43 PM
I think Young's early successes and then how he fizzled out in Tennessee is a good example of why they're not in a rush to play Tebow.

Good point Rav.

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getlynched47
10-07-2011, 05:47 PM
Let me respeak.

Its been reported that Tebow isn't able to run the offense. He's not making the right pre-snap reads, isn't able to make the right identifications on blitzes (thus not making the adjustments at the LoS), and isn't throwing the ball to the right receiver (meaning the one that he SHOULD be throwing to pre-determined by the defensive coverage), and then not hitting the reeceiver once he does throw it. I don't mean he's running the "wrong plays" as you just stated...but if he's not throwing to the right guy, thats not running the offense.

Also... Vince Young is a BAD QB. Its why he's still third string on the Eagles. Its a large reason why no teams were jumping to sign him this year. It's why the only team that was high on drafting him, was the Titans (and the coache didn't want to draft him). He's not good. So I hope you aren't saying that we could have a Vince Young on our team, because that just makes the point foe EVERY person that stated that TEbow is not ready for the NFL.

To be honest, I have never seen those kind of reports you speak of. The only thing I've heard is that Tebow's throwing motion sucks and he was inaccurate during camp (which I saw when I went to the practices).

Also, let's be honest: Vince Young is a bad QB because of his work ethic and attitude, not because he lacks the ability to be a great QB.

Ravage!!!
10-07-2011, 05:54 PM
To be honest, I have never seen those kind of reports you speak of. The only thing I've heard is that Tebow's throwing motion sucks and he was inaccurate during camp (which I saw when I went to the practices).

Also, let's be honest: Vince Young is a bad QB because of his work ethic and attitude, not because he lacks the ability to be a great QB.

If you are drafted to be in the NFL, you ahve the "ability" to be a great QB. Vince Young is bad because he's just bad. He and Tebow are very VERY similar players coming out of college, and had the same negatives about them when coming to the pros.

Its not just Tebow's "throwing motion" that is his problem. Its his reads and identifying defensive coverages. They both didn't have to do much of that in college. It was a single read and RUN type of offense. Then, if you are running after your single read, and one of our bigger, stronger, faster WRs get open.... hit them. Works in college.

But Vince is bad because (not to mention that he's isn't very smart) doesn't understand defenses. Which is what is Tebow's biggest problems, by his own admission. He doesn't really understand what the different defenses are, what they are trying to do, and how to attack them.

Lancane
10-07-2011, 07:23 PM
To be honest, I have never seen those kind of reports you speak of. The only thing I've heard is that Tebow's throwing motion sucks and he was inaccurate during camp (which I saw when I went to the practices).

Also, let's be honest: Vince Young is a bad QB because of his work ethic and attitude, not because he lacks the ability to be a great QB.

There was a lot more criticism and overall questions surrounding him then just his throwing motion! If it was just his throwing motion then he'd probably have been drafted higher, after all there have been some rather respectable and successful quarterbacks whom have all the tangibles you look for but awkward throwing motions. But Tebow has issues with the other mechanics and aspects of the position such as his release, accuracy and reads, and that has been mentioned time and time again...it's nothing new.

getlynched47
10-07-2011, 08:03 PM
There was a lot more criticism and overall questions surrounding him then just his throwing motion! If it was just his throwing motion then he'd probably have been drafted higher, after all there have been some rather respectable and successful quarterbacks whom have all the tangibles you look for but awkward throwing motions. But Tebow has issues with the other mechanics and aspects of the position such as his release, accuracy and reads, and that has been mentioned time and time again...it's nothing new.

I understand that, mechanically, Tim Tebow is not on the level of Kyle Orton. But the reason I brought up the Vince Young/ Kerry Collins thing is because a switch to a new QB can make a huge difference, regardless of who was the top dog in practice and preseason.

Sinthor
10-08-2011, 12:16 AM
Sorry, I don't buy it. There's just more speculation here on the boards. Not able to make the right pre-snap reads, etc.? Really? Fox just said that Tebow knows the base offense as well as Quinn and Orton. Now, he could be just talking as well, but last season in the last three games it was clear that Tebow COULD make pre-snap reads. He also audibled out of a few plays based on the defense. Now, does he read like Tom Brady or Peyton Manning? Probably not. But not being able to do so at all? This is bunk.

Look, Young could be a good quarterback and he executed well when he was in game a good bit of the time. It's been known and stated that he simply wouldn't put in the work you need to be successful consistently in the league. That and his mental state/conflicts with coaches, etc. got him canned and almost made him untouchable. He reminds me kind of like Ryan Leaf...the mental part anyway. If he settles down, matures and puts in the work, he could be a good QB.

Tebow's shown he can play in games and move the team. The bottom line of what happened is that the staff was willing to go with him. That failed and Kyle out executed Tebow in training camp, as he should. Makes it hard for a new staff that's trying to earn the trust and buy in of a team to just make a call like replacing a vet who's doing better in camp with basically a rookie. They decided not to do that. Orton will thus have to play himself out of the job, which he's well on the way to doing. This year we'll likely (and hopefully) get to see Tebow for at LEAST a 5 or 6 game stretch. I think it's likely to be at least 10 games. Then we'll know if he's a guy that can actually be built on for the future, or if they need to draft another QB.

The lack of offseason obviously hurt Tebow and other young players, although for the life of me I can't understand why the staff wouldn't have prepped by setting up a plan for him to follow and probably trainers as well so this could be worked on. They should have done that, anyway.

Bottom line, this just has to play out with Orton, like it looks like it will be doing soon. Then Tebow will get in and all questions will be answered.

Almost every young QB never gets in the game unless a team has NO established vet of even semi-decent quality available. Look at recent history. Gabbart/Garrard, Ponder/McNabb. The only youngsters to start were on teams that had no viable options. See Jets/Sanchez, Falcons/Ryan, Ravens/Flacco. Even Bradford wasn't starting over Feely till Feely got injured. It just doesn't happen. What's going on with the Broncos isn't abnormal, just the result of them not being able to pull off the trade this summer.

jhildebrand
10-08-2011, 12:20 AM
McGahee didn't know the play at the RZ on 4th and goal against TN. What was he doing in there against GB then? :confused:

Orton audibled out of a Fox called run play week 1 against Dallas for a shitty fade pass to Lloyd that hadn't a shot in hell. Not exactly smart playcalling. It didn't affect him in the playing time department.

Ravage!!!
10-08-2011, 12:35 AM
McGahee didn't know the play at the RZ on 4th and goal against TN. What was he doing in there against GB then? :confused:

Orton audibled out of a Fox called run play week 1 against Dallas for a shitty fade pass to Lloyd that hadn't a shot in hell. Not exactly smart playcalling. It didn't affect him in the playing time department.

what are you talking about? QBs have their reads and make the calls. Just because YOu don't think "it had a chance" or whatever doesn't mean that Orton didn't make the RIGHT read based on the call they had, the personnel and the formations in place. I can't believe you are forcing me to defend Orton by making these statements.

Canmore
10-08-2011, 12:42 AM
what are you talking about? QBs have their reads and make the calls. Just because YOu don't think "it had a chance" or whatever doesn't mean that Orton didn't make the RIGHT read based on the call they had, the personnel and the formations in place. I can't believe you are forcing me to defend Orton by making these statements.

I've been painted in a corner and defended Kyle, say it isn't so! :laugh:

Ravage!!!
10-08-2011, 12:47 AM
I've been painted in a corner and defended Kyle, say it isn't so! :laugh:

Exactly!! :mad: I don't even want Kyle to start, but I'm forced to defend him! Ughh! :tsk:

This whole thing is just beyond silly. Lets just face the facts that Tebow isnt' getting in soon, Fox doesn't read the message boards, and their is no conspiracy to keep Tebow down by not "giving him a fair shot."

Simple Jaded
10-08-2011, 02:30 AM
I like how Ortonary and Tebow had the same win/loss after 3 games in '11 and in Teebs 3 unearned starts in '10, but somehow 1-3 should anoint Teebs and 1-3 should get Ortonary benched.

A better example of hypocracy you will rarely find.

I say you pump the brakes on the win/loss arguments til Denver isn't pathetic-to-thoroughly pathetic on defense or until someone invents a way to tangibly put the win/loss into perspective.

Is "tangibly" a real word? l like to think it is.......

Simple Jaded
10-08-2011, 02:40 AM
.........in practice :coffee:

Kerry Collins was the best QB on the Titans roster in 2006. Vince Young outplayed him when given the chance. Who's to say that Quinn or Tebow wouldn't do the same?


I understand that, mechanically, Tim Tebow is not on the level of Kyle Orton. But the reason I brought up the Vince Young/ Kerry Collins thing is because a switch to a new QB can make a huge difference, regardless of who was the top dog in practice and preseason.

Switching from Young to Collins also made a huge difference, it literally goes both ways with Young/Collins, so it's puzzling that you use this dynamic to support your argument.......

Canmore
10-08-2011, 02:44 AM
Exactly!! :mad: I don't even want Kyle to start, but I'm forced to defend him! Ughh! :tsk:

This whole thing is just beyond silly. Lets just face the facts that Tebow isnt' getting in soon, Fox doesn't read the message boards, and their is no conspiracy to keep Tebow down by not "giving him a fair shot."

I don't want him to start either. I want to see Quinn, Tebow or Weber! I don't care, anything but more of Orton! I've seen enough. When the shit hits the fan Orton is the shit.

Simple Jaded
10-08-2011, 02:51 AM
There was a lot more criticism and overall questions surrounding him then just his throwing motion! If it was just his throwing motion then he'd probably have been drafted higher, after all there have been some rather respectable and successful quarterbacks whom have all the tangibles you look for but awkward throwing motions. But Tebow has issues with the other mechanics and aspects of the position such as his release, accuracy and reads, and that has been mentioned time and time again...it's nothing new.

Not to mention 5 and 7 step drops and run-first instincts, all of these issues and not just in practice. What little improvement he makes in structured settings goes down the tube when he is faced with live bullets.

If he's not showing improvement in practice how can the coaches expect anything different when he's staring down the barrell of a 280lb DE that's just as fast as he is?

And people need to rest the "he's a gamer" bullshit, even if it's still true on the NFL level that's an intangible that is impossible to quantify. OC's don't coordinate ad-lib and "seat of his pants", coaches don't do random, by nature they are control freaks.......

Simple Jaded
10-08-2011, 02:59 AM
So our backup CBs are to blame for Orton's interceptions, fumbles, and shortcomings... :laugh::laugh::laugh:

You think that is REALLY a "rational" opinion?

You think thats REALLY what he said?.......

Simple Jaded
10-08-2011, 03:06 AM
Saying he's part of problem but not attempting to to do something about it doesn't make sense. There is a possible solution sitting on the bench. If you don't think we could win even with a good quarterback then what's the problem in seeing what Tebow can do?

For one, selling it to 52 other players that want the best player in the most important position on the field.

Message boards are for logic like this, not reality.......

Simple Jaded
10-08-2011, 03:09 AM
because thats not Tebows game. Tebow is a reactive, hybrid player who is able to threaten with his running ability... an ability that he can not use in practice. He can not use his physicality. He can not use his innovative adlibbing. He can only go through a set dead motion as a pocket QB that he has never been.

KO has had 7 years of doing this in the NFL and TT has had not even 1 full year. To think that TT will go out and beat KO at his own meaningless game in practice is moronic... equally as moronic as believing that such a set practice means that KO is a better QB in game time.

Theres a word for QB's like that; "Backup".......

Simple Jaded
10-08-2011, 03:23 AM
Being a neutral third-party, doesn't this part of your postcompletely contradict this part?

If the Orton is a suck ass player who in the opinion of the coach and front office doesn't have a backup that could be better than him, why should he be treated differently?:confused:

Using your logic, the Broncos should replace ALL their suck ass players, not just Orton, to evaluate the backups for the next draft.

Thank you! Why is the 3rd string QB the only one who gets a starting job of a he didn't earn just "to see what we got".

Ortonary has made mistakes, everybody does, so shouldn't we bench Bailey if he gets best for a TD? Ya know, just to see what Cassius Vaughn can do in extended playing time? Ortonary is no Champ Bailey but neither is Tim Tebow or Cassius Vaughn. Don't we wanna see if we can ignore CB and draft a QB instead? Probably not, we just wanna see Tim Tebow.

And how many times has Beadles and Walton ****** up? Should they be benched even if they don't have a better option? Every single starting player makes mistakes, why should Tebow be the only one handed a job he didn't earn?

Point is, there are many, many mistakes made that hurt this team, why is Tebow the only possible solution that matters?.......

Simple Jaded
10-08-2011, 03:39 AM
If Elway is seriously thinking of drafting a quarterback in the next draft then he needs to know.

Maybe he does.......

Simple Jaded
10-08-2011, 03:41 AM
.........in practice :coffee:

Kerry Collins was the best QB on the Titans roster in 2006. Vince Young outplayed him when given the chance. Who's to say that Quinn or Tebow wouldn't do the same?

Most QB's are better in practice, apparently Tebow is an exception.

Btw, quit pretending that you give a fat rats ass about Brady Quinn, this is 100% about Tim Tebow. It's not even about Kyle Ortonary. It's all about Tim Tebow.

If Quinn went in a played well and still lost you'd start another thread about Tim Tebow. The only chance people shut up about Tim Tebow is if the starting QB puts up 153's every week, but l doubt that would work either.......

Juriga72
10-08-2011, 08:00 AM
For one, selling it to 52 other players that want the best player in the most important position on the field.

Message boards are for logic like this, not reality.......


Try selling a 6-26 stretch with your OTHER staring Qb to 52 players...cause they are down with that

Agent of Orange
10-08-2011, 08:42 AM
Maybe they shouldn't be, but they are. That's the whole point.

No, some do but not everyone. The unfortunate part is that much of this talk comes from the blowhards in sports talk radio and so it filters down to those who are easily influenced. People who are more scrutinous know its BS though.



If they weren't judged on Win/Loss, Mark Sanchez would've been replaced a long ass time ago.

What?!


Sanchez sucks, but his team still wins. Rex Ryan isn't stupid and knows this. Yet you will not see Mark Sanchez benched unless the Jets start to lose consistently. Guaranteed.

This point you're trying to make about Sanchez fails for a couple of reasons. First of all, the W-L thing comes up when comparing QBs. The point you're trying to make doesn't address Sanchez's place among other QBs. So even if Rex Ryan feels Sanchez is the QB on the Jets who facilitates winning, that doesnt mean Sanchez is better than other QBs on teams that win less.

Saying Ryan feels Sanchez gives the Jets the best chance to win only explains why he's the starter but it doesnt explain where he ranks against other QBs, which is the topic. It's possible to be a better QB than Sanchez and play on a worse, less balanced team than the Jets.

Agent of Orange
10-08-2011, 08:53 AM
Most QB's are better in practice, apparently Tebow is an exception.
Btw, quit pretending that you give a fat rats ass about Brady Quinn, this is 100% about Tim Tebow. It's not even about Kyle Ortonary. It's all about Tim Tebow.

If Quinn went in a played well and still lost you'd start another thread about Tim Tebow. The only chance people shut up about Tim Tebow is if the starting QB puts up 153's every week, but l doubt that would work either.......

All of Orton's plays where he curls up in the fetal position in games, don't exist in practice since there is no fear of getting hit. All of these negative plays aren't seen on the practice field since they're not allowed to tackle the QBs like they are in games. And then when you look at those same plays and how Tebow is more likely to extend those plays, you can see how things change by keeping a play alive giving a WR more time to get open or allowing him more time to find someone who was open for a big play.

getlynched47
10-08-2011, 02:57 PM
Most QB's are better in practice, apparently Tebow is an exception.

Btw, quit pretending that you give a fat rats ass about Brady Quinn, this is 100% about Tim Tebow. It's not even about Kyle Ortonary. It's all about Tim Tebow.

If Quinn went in a played well and still lost you'd start another thread about Tim Tebow. The only chance people shut up about Tim Tebow is if the starting QB puts up 153's every week, but l doubt that would work either.......

Uh, no.

If you paid attention to any of my posts, you'd see I'm not a member of the Tebow-ner legion. I like the kid, but this isn't about Tim Tebow. It's about Kyle Orton's win/loss record with the Broncos.

I'm anti-Orton. I could care less who is starting for my Broncos. I'm just sick of Kyle Orton.

That's why I bring up Brady Quinn.

getlynched47
10-08-2011, 03:02 PM
This point you're trying to make about Sanchez fails for a couple of reasons. First of all, the W-L thing comes up when comparing QBs. The point you're trying to make doesn't address Sanchez's place among other QBs. So even if Rex Ryan feels Sanchez is the QB on the Jets who facilitates winning, that doesnt mean Sanchez is better than other QBs on teams that win less.

Saying Ryan feels Sanchez gives the Jets the best chance to win only explains why he's the starter but it doesnt explain where he ranks against other QBs, which is the topic. It's possible to be a better QB than Sanchez and play on a worse, less balanced team than the Jets.

Your reading comprehension fails for a lot of reasons.

We're talking about Win/Loss, not Kyle Orton or Mark Sanchez's "place among other QBs.

It's as simple as this: Mark Sanchez wins games, even though he's a crappy QB. He won't be replaced by Rex Ryan unless the Jets start to lose consistently under Dirty Sanchez.

Kyle Orton does NOT win games for our Broncos, which means he should be replaced, regardless of how good of a QB he is or isn't.

underrated29
10-08-2011, 03:23 PM
Thank you! Why is the 3rd string QB the only one who gets a starting job of a he didn't earn just "to see what we got".

Ortonary has made mistakes, everybody does, so shouldn't we bench Bailey if he gets best for a TD? Ya know, just to see what Cassius Vaughn can do in extended playing time? Ortonary is no Champ Bailey but neither is Tim Tebow or Cassius Vaughn. Don't we wanna see if we can ignore CB and draft a QB instead? Probably not, we just wanna see Tim Tebow.

And how many times has Beadles and Walton ****** up? Should they be benched even if they don't have a better option? Every single starting player makes mistakes, why should Tebow be the only one handed a job he didn't earn?

Point is, there are many, many mistakes made that hurt this team, why is Tebow the only possible solution that matters?.......




Ok- first Tebow is NOT the 3rd string qb. He never has been. Dint believe me check the official denver broncos list. Go back and look throughout pre season too. He never was third. Now they don't even list whose third.


Your entire argument was nice but it holds no water. Why? One simple thing you neglected to mention.

Behind champ, beadles, Walton and all the other players you listed, is not a first round draft pick. Behind those players is not a guy who owns practically every offensive college record known to man. Behind those starters is not a player who has come in without practice and started 3 games and put up more yards and points and a better win record.


That is why when beadles sucks we don't bench him for some scrub. That IS why people want to bench Orton to see if the college phenomenon and 3 starts pro can carry over the appealing tease we have seen from him.


I like Tebow and do think he will be good, but I don't care if he plays in place of orton or not, orton flat out sucks for us. He needs to go, that's what I want. Yay if orton is gone sooner than later, double yay if its Tebow who replaces him. Kyle has maxed out here and its not good enough....Tebow and Quinn (maybe- hopefully) have not.

Agent of Orange
10-08-2011, 03:34 PM
Your reading comprehension fails for a lot of reasons.

We're talking about Win/Loss, not Kyle Orton or Mark Sanchez's "place among other QBs.

It's as simple as this: Mark Sanchez wins games, even though he's a crappy QB. He won't be replaced by Rex Ryan unless the Jets start to lose consistently under Dirty Sanchez.
Kyle Orton does NOT win games for our Broncos, which means he should be replaced, regardless of how good of a QB he is or isn't.

How does my reading comprehension fail? I addressed this same silly notion the first time. You repeating it doesnt make it better the second time, nor does it void the holes I poked in this line of thinking the first time around. It doesnt really seem like Im the one with a reading comprehension problem.

But to address this a second time, no, it really isn't that simple.

Lancane
10-08-2011, 03:49 PM
I'll gladly admit that I'm anti-Orton, and have been so for a long time - before he even entered the league; being that Michigan State is my Alma mater, I've long watched the happenings of the Big Ten and Mid-American conferences, and Orton wasn't all that good coming out of college and anyone who watched enough of his games could tell you much the same that he was overly hyped because he had an outside shot for the Heisman, but in general had a decent arm but lacked motivation and had accuracy issues. And I don't see that he's much improved from his over hyped collegiate days, he's just a better game manager now...that's it.

As for Tebow, I wouldn't have drafted him - he does have a lot qualities that you look for in a franchise quarterback; good overall character, leadership ability, a drive to succeed, is open minded to improve, decent arm strength, has the ability to move around in the pocket or use his legs when a play breaks down...but those qualities don't outweigh the concerns for what he's lacking in terms of mechanics to succeed at the position. If I was his coach I sure in the hell wouldn't have had him second on the depth chart his first season, I would have wanted him to learn the in's and out's of the position that first year, to break the habits that hinder him and help him develop better pro-style mechanics and McDaniels didn't do that, he was too deeply involved emotionally with his shiny new toy. And now that might hurt Tebow's career and force Denver to use another high draft pick on a better suited starting quarterback.

I don't think that it's that Tebow can not learn to be a pro-style quarterback, far from it...it's like a motorcycle, you take it apart and then build it back up with the right parts one piece at a time till it's exactly how you want it.

BroncoStud
10-08-2011, 06:53 PM
I'm anti-Orton. He sucks. He just plain sucks. Why some people still contest this it is baffling... I just don't get it. They guy choked at Purdue, the guy choked in Chicago, the guy has choked his ass off here.

Kyle Orton simply SUCKS. Period. Why would we keep this bum at starting QB for 3 seasons? Answer: Our front office sucks too.

silkamilkamonico
10-08-2011, 07:35 PM
Where is topscribe?

Northman
10-08-2011, 07:44 PM
Where is topscribe?

He left.

Simple Jaded
10-08-2011, 09:41 PM
Ok- first Tebow is NOT the 3rd string qb. He never has been. Dint believe me check the official denver broncos list. Go back and look throughout pre season too. He never was third. Now they don't even list whose third.


Your entire argument was nice but it holds no water. Why? One simple thing you neglected to mention.

Behind champ, beadles, Walton and all the other players you listed, is not a first round draft pick. Behind those players is not a guy who owns practically every offensive college record known to man. Behind those starters is not a player who has come in without practice and started 3 games and put up more yards and points and a better win record.


That is why when beadles sucks we don't bench him for some scrub. That IS why people want to bench Orton to see if the college phenomenon and 3 starts pro can carry over the appealing tease we have seen from him.


I like Tebow and do think he will be good, but I don't care if he plays in place of orton or not, orton flat out sucks for us. He needs to go, that's what I want. Yay if orton is gone sooner than later, double yay if its Tebow who replaces him. Kyle has maxed out here and its not good enough....Tebow and Quinn (maybe- hopefully) have not.

I think Jeff Legwald is one of many who have been reporting that Tebow is 3rd sting, Quinn is #2 in the main offense and Tebow otherwise. While he concedes that the pressure may factor into the decision, the Broncos will go with Quinn if Orton misses time with injury.

I'm sure he's seen the depth chart over at the propaganda site too, idk, maybe he's just conditioned not to believe anything the Broncos say publicly or maybe he's hearing something different from team sources or maybe the Broncos won't definitively name #2 because they don't wanna start another drama among some very irrational and/or thoroughly ******* stupid fans.

I would like to say one thing, imo opponents don't really care who is 2nd or who is 3rd, neither QB is hard to prepare for so any competitive advantage of not naming 2 and 3 pales in comparison to soothing The Tebow Thing. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain by naming Tebow #2 if he's earned it, otherwise the Broncos have created a scenario where the perception is the 3rd string was given a job he hasn't earned. Clearly that doesn't mean anything to his fans but it matters in reality, Shanatan put Cutler in a shitty situation when he benched Plummer and he actually outplayed Jake Plummer. However, they also have nothing to lose and everything to gain by not telling people who comes in if Orton were injured/benched. Not naming 2 and 3 lets the irrational/stupid masses down gently/slowly and gives the team a softer landing in the event that Quinn actually is Orton's injury/bench replacment. This is accomplished simply by putting the possibilty out there, you and l are already discussing it.

So if Tebow is the primary backup the Broncos have nothing to lose by saying so, this Co-#2 bullshit looks a lot like pandering to me. Besides, the depth chart is far less significant than who is getting 2nd string reps in practice, and that is where the disconnect is. Even if they're splitting reps evenly this still doesn't say much for Tebow, it just means he's neck and neck with a failed No1 and way behind an average starter. All of this seems to support the notion that the Broncos will have different reasons for going in the direction they go at the time the decision is made but if Tebow demonstrated that he is clearly the 2nd string then none of this is necessary. The fact that we're even discussing this should tell you something.

Either way, l'm just telling you what l've been told. Naturally you and everybody else will point and laugh in the event that Tebow is first off the bench, it changes nothing, people covering the Broncos are telling me something different.

Personally, l'm not surprised if Tebow goes in, if his fans are as panicked and fragile when Orton is in there, there is no telling what level temper tantrum they see if Quinn is in there. We could be talking lawsuits with these idiots, lmao. If you're stupid enough to rent a billboard you're stupid enough to think that you have a legal right to force the Broncos hand. Look at how offended his fans get at the very notion that Quinn really is 2nd string, they are literally insulted. These people don't even have the balls to just come out and say "I want my guy!", no, they hide behind the pretense that they're just sick of losing and that Orton is SOOO BAD that anybody is better than Orton. Bullshit! You can do far worse than Kyle Orton, it's not like Tebow is sitting behind Bradlee Van Pelt. This is about Tim Tebow, The Whole Tim Tebow and Nothing But Tim Tebow! They're just too ******* pretentious to admit it and because it's at the expense of denigrating yet another Denver Broncos starting QB, this is absolutely chickenshit! The Start Tebow Now argument doesn't have a smoking gun so we wipe our ass with the people that stand in the way of getting what we want, using (among other things) a win/loss record that every player played a role in.

The 1st round pick dynamic is much ado about nothing, imo, if Tebow were the player he's supposed to be he'd already be in there. If Tebow were the player he's supposed to be Orton never gets the contract extention that would later get in the way of getting Orton out of Tebow's way. This is Kyle frekking Orton people! And Tebow has yet to outplay Orton's backup, let alone beat out Orton. If you can't beat Kyle Ortonary you are not a 1st round prospect, and if he is not a 1st round prospect than any pretense of "seeing what we have in Tebow to prepare for the 2012 draft" goes right out the ******* window. He's just a project at that point. He never was a 1st round prospect and he looks nothing like a 1st round pick so forcing an old regimes mistakes on the new regime only compounds the mistakes. This argument is utter bullshit. Actually, Quinn and Tebow are both wasted 1st round picks this regime had nothing to do with drafting, yet all the whining is for Tim Tebow. Draft position is a convenient truth.

Btw, l have never been an Ortonary fan, l can't stand him and l can't believe l'm now in a position where l'm actually defending him. But this whole Orton v Tebow nonsense is absolutely hilarious, especially considering this is the same QB that had these same fans throwing fits when l told them that Orton was the type of QB that he turned out to be. Actually, he's better than the QB that he was when he got here.

It's Tebow you should be pissed at, not Orton.......

Ravage!!!
10-09-2011, 02:03 AM
Good post... :beer:

TXBRONC
10-09-2011, 08:29 AM
For one, selling it to 52 other players that want the best player in the most important position on the field.

Message boards are for logic like this, not reality.......

If we are out of playoff contention then what 52 other players think is irrelevant.

I been saying that for quite some time.

From what I've read I don't that all 52 other players think Orton is best option to win.

After the game edit:

I guess I wasn't being illogical.

cardoso
10-09-2011, 09:25 AM
i'm so glad your inside perspective is telling me that quarterback is the biggest problem on this team. funny how someone on the team wouldn't notice all the other holes in the roster.

yes, i'm being a bit of a dick. but, i think, if anybody on this board was actually part of the team they'd realize QB isn't the only problem. i don't even think it's the biggest problem.

orton is an average nfl QB - above average with McD's tutelage, ironically. but if he played above average yesterday denver still would have lost by 14.

i'm not an orton fan. and i understand using him as a focal point to vent; but i'm sick of the guy being blamed for the state of the team. he's A problem; not THE problem.

this team has no depth on a defensive unit that isn't good. it's offensive line is mediocre. the running backs are average - at best. and injuries are killing the team - not an excuse, but fact.

the truest thing that can be said about the broncos is its a really bad team. and i don't think QB is the weakest part of the program. after watching the reserve Dbacks, depth in the secondary might be the biggest problem - especially in a league that's going pass first.

but, whatever, this post won't change anything. so let the orton bashing continue; just please don't pretend this team would be a winner with tebow, quinn, drew brees or roger staubach leading the offense. i don't even believe elway or peyton could take this team to the playoffs.

so full of it! With all the short coming we still had a chance to be 3-1 right now. The only reason we didn't win those 2 other games????? Two Orton turnovers. I don't care what happened in any game, when you are in a position to WIN the game at the end and don't because of your quarterback, that is the quaterback's fault not anyone elses.

cardoso
10-09-2011, 09:27 AM
For one, selling it to 52 other players that want the best player in the most important position on the field.

Message boards are for logic like this, not reality.......

40 of those 52 players won't even be here in 3 years. Most of those 52 players are the reason for the pathetic last 2 years. Who gives a shit what they think they won't be here any longer and if the coach keeps doing what he's doing he wont be here that long either. It sounds like you listen too much to the media with stupid comments like that.

jhildebrand
10-09-2011, 11:58 AM
It's McDaniels you should be pissed at, not Orton.......

Fixed it for you.

getlynched47
10-09-2011, 07:54 PM
So I think that puts Kyle Orton at 6 wins-22 losses since the flukey 6-0 start (2009)

Northman
10-09-2011, 07:56 PM
I think Jeff Legwald is one of many who have been reporting that Tebow is 3rd sting, Quinn is #2 in the main offense and Tebow otherwise. While he concedes that the pressure may factor into the decision, the Broncos will go with Quinn if Orton misses time with injury.

I'm sure he's seen the depth chart over at the propaganda site too, idk, maybe he's just conditioned not to believe anything the Broncos say publicly or maybe he's hearing something different from team sources or maybe the Broncos won't definitively name #2 because they don't wanna start another drama among some very irrational and/or thoroughly ******* stupid fans.

I would like to say one thing, imo opponents don't really care who is 2nd or who is 3rd, neither QB is hard to prepare for so any competitive advantage of not naming 2 and 3 pales in comparison to soothing The Tebow Thing. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain by naming Tebow #2 if he's earned it, otherwise the Broncos have created a scenario where the perception is the 3rd string was given a job he hasn't earned. Clearly that doesn't mean anything to his fans but it matters in reality, Shanatan put Cutler in a shitty situation when he benched Plummer and he actually outplayed Jake Plummer. However, they also have nothing to lose and everything to gain by not telling people who comes in if Orton were injured/benched. Not naming 2 and 3 lets the irrational/stupid masses down gently/slowly and gives the team a softer landing in the event that Quinn actually is Orton's injury/bench replacment. This is accomplished simply by putting the possibilty out there, you and l are already discussing it.

So if Tebow is the primary backup the Broncos have nothing to lose by saying so, this Co-#2 bullshit looks a lot like pandering to me. Besides, the depth chart is far less significant than who is getting 2nd string reps in practice, and that is where the disconnect is. Even if they're splitting reps evenly this still doesn't say much for Tebow, it just means he's neck and neck with a failed No1 and way behind an average starter. All of this seems to support the notion that the Broncos will have different reasons for going in the direction they go at the time the decision is made but if Tebow demonstrated that he is clearly the 2nd string then none of this is necessary. The fact that we're even discussing this should tell you something.

Either way, l'm just telling you what l've been told. Naturally you and everybody else will point and laugh in the event that Tebow is first off the bench, it changes nothing, people covering the Broncos are telling me something different.

Personally, l'm not surprised if Tebow goes in, if his fans are as panicked and fragile when Orton is in there, there is no telling what level temper tantrum they see if Quinn is in there. We could be talking lawsuits with these idiots, lmao. If you're stupid enough to rent a billboard you're stupid enough to think that you have a legal right to force the Broncos hand. Look at how offended his fans get at the very notion that Quinn really is 2nd string, they are literally insulted. These people don't even have the balls to just come out and say "I want my guy!", no, they hide behind the pretense that they're just sick of losing and that Orton is SOOO BAD that anybody is better than Orton. Bullshit! You can do far worse than Kyle Orton, it's not like Tebow is sitting behind Bradlee Van Pelt. This is about Tim Tebow, The Whole Tim Tebow and Nothing But Tim Tebow! They're just too ******* pretentious to admit it and because it's at the expense of denigrating yet another Denver Broncos starting QB, this is absolutely chickenshit! The Start Tebow Now argument doesn't have a smoking gun so we wipe our ass with the people that stand in the way of getting what we want, using (among other things) a win/loss record that every player played a role in.

The 1st round pick dynamic is much ado about nothing, imo, if Tebow were the player he's supposed to be he'd already be in there. If Tebow were the player he's supposed to be Orton never gets the contract extention that would later get in the way of getting Orton out of Tebow's way. This is Kyle frekking Orton people! And Tebow has yet to outplay Orton's backup, let alone beat out Orton. If you can't beat Kyle Ortonary you are not a 1st round prospect, and if he is not a 1st round prospect than any pretense of "seeing what we have in Tebow to prepare for the 2012 draft" goes right out the ******* window. He's just a project at that point. He never was a 1st round prospect and he looks nothing like a 1st round pick so forcing an old regimes mistakes on the new regime only compounds the mistakes. This argument is utter bullshit. Actually, Quinn and Tebow are both wasted 1st round picks this regime had nothing to do with drafting, yet all the whining is for Tim Tebow. Draft position is a convenient truth.

Btw, l have never been an Ortonary fan, l can't stand him and l can't believe l'm now in a position where l'm actually defending him. But this whole Orton v Tebow nonsense is absolutely hilarious, especially considering this is the same QB that had these same fans throwing fits when l told them that Orton was the type of QB that he turned out to be. Actually, he's better than the QB that he was when he got here.

It's Tebow you should be pissed at, not Orton.......


Oooops.

broncobryce
10-09-2011, 09:54 PM
Owned!

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Sinthor
10-10-2011, 02:27 AM
I love that once again, people who've been saying Tebow isn't "the real backup" have been proven wrong. Just like those who swore that Tebow wasn't really the backup last year; it was just so he could be used in game and so it wouldn't irritate those "religious Tebow nuts." How's the theory looking now?

There's a long way to go this season but hopefully we've heard the end of that nonsense, at least.

Juriga72
10-10-2011, 06:26 AM
Where is topscribe?

He put everyone on his "Iggy" list....:)