PDA

View Full Version : Cutler getting NO love for pro bowl selection



Northman
12-17-2008, 10:17 AM
Although i love listening to Mike and Mike and Colin Cowherd i am a bit baffled at their explanations as too why Jay shouldnt be in the pro bowl and Phillis Rivers should be. Greenberg and Golic think that it should be Chad Pennington, Peyton Manning, and Phillis Rivers. Cowherd thinks that Rivers should be in as well. And some of their arguements are that (in miami's case) without Chad the Dolphins arent doing half as well as they should be.

Mmmm, ok. I can live with that arguement. But i would use that same thinking that Jay doesnt have a run game, doesnt have any real defense and generally has put up crazy aerial numbers just to win games this year. Meanwhile, Rivers has a RB, a somewhat better defense than Denver does and he deserves it more than Jay? Especially considering Denver wasnt even supposed to finish on top of the Division? Give me a break.

To their credit, they do believe Marshall belongs there and felt that Clady should of gotten the nod. But there is no way that Rivers should go over Cutler considering the amount of talent and veteran players around them. Regardless of how nice Rivers numbers have been he has not been able to get his team to win the games they should have.

SmilinAssasSin27
12-17-2008, 10:35 AM
I personally was shocked to see Cutler's name on the list. I'd have put Collins, Penny, Rivers all ahead of him.

Northman
12-17-2008, 10:37 AM
Collins and Penny, yea. I could see that. Rivers, no way.

SmilinAssasSin27
12-17-2008, 10:39 AM
Just cuz we all hate him doesn't mean he isn't any good.

CoachChaz
12-17-2008, 10:39 AM
From a numbers approach, Rivers deserves to be there. I think the SD problem is similar to ours in that the defense has fallen apart. Rivers easily deserved the nod over Cutler.

Shazam!
12-17-2008, 10:39 AM
It is quite a snub for Chad. Brett made it on reputation alone.

Mike
12-17-2008, 10:41 AM
Collins and Pennington? Give me a break. Game managers, nothing more. Both defenses carry a lot of the load and both have good to great running games.

Rivers should be in. LT stinks this year and for the most part Phillis has had to carry the Chargers. Very similiar to Cutler.

Manning, Cutler, Rivers are the best QBs in the AFC and should be at the Pro Bowl.

Northman
12-17-2008, 10:45 AM
Just cuz we all hate him doesn't mean he isn't any good.

Its not about hate, i think he is a good QB. Is he better or more deserving of a Pro Bowl nod than Jay. No way.

CoachChaz
12-17-2008, 10:45 AM
My top 3 would be Rivers, Pennington and Manning. if he didnt miss some time, Shaub would be on that list as well.

CoachChaz
12-17-2008, 10:46 AM
Its not about hate, i think he is a good QB. Is he better or more deserving of a Pro Bowl nod than Jay. No way.

Based on what?

Northman
12-17-2008, 10:46 AM
From a numbers approach, Rivers deserves to be there. I think the SD problem is similar to ours in that the defense has fallen apart. Rivers easily deserved the nod over Cutler.


If it was just based off numbers i would agree. But, there is more to Qbing than just numbers and as i pointed out in my initial post Jay has done more with a lot less than Phil.

Mike
12-17-2008, 10:47 AM
My top 3 would be Rivers, Pennington and Manning. if he didnt miss some time, Shaub would be on that list as well.

Why Pennington?

Northman
12-17-2008, 10:51 AM
Why Pennington?

I could see the arguement for Pennington. Dolphins went 1-15 last year and Pennington has done a decent job with almost no recievers to speak of.

Flatinum
12-17-2008, 10:53 AM
The Pro Bowl is a joke anyways. But how anyone would put Collins is there I don't understand. Why because his team is 12-2. He's done nothing outstanding as a qb except not turn the ball over, manage a team with a good running game and a below average passing game. That gets him to the Pro Bowl??? It's about personal performance - how is that measured at the skill postions - stats. If it was about wins then you have to say Big Ben should be there.

I was surprised but happy to see Phillis not going. He should be there based on the season he's having (not his team's having). Which brings me to Cutler the guy is 1st and 2nd in the AFC in 2 of the 3 stats that matter most imo, yds and tds. He should be there, Phillis should be there and Manning as well. But to say guys like Pennington and Collins should be there because they're teams are having great years or turn around years in the Dolphins case is a joke. Just like the Pro Bowl.

p.s - Jason Peters even making the Pro Bowl, let alone making it over Clady strengthens my arguement. Joke.

Requiem / The Dagda
12-17-2008, 10:59 AM
Pro-Bowl is a joke. Clady outperformed everyone perhaps Michael Roos this year at the position as a rookie. I just take satisfaction in knowing Harris and Clady kicked ass this year and regardless if they get their due or not. Why? Cause we have a 23 year old (Harris) and 22 year old (Clady) set of tackles who should be here in Denver for a whole decade if things go right.

We have a franchise quarterback, we have two great young receivers with some savvy veterans around them and have some power at the TE position as well. We have guys like Kuper and Lichtensteiger as well; who should be here to help as well. Can't forget Hillis who was a man's man on the field either.

Get us another offensive weapon or two -- and even a decent defense and this team will take off.

Northman
12-17-2008, 11:01 AM
The Pro Bowl is a joke anyways. But how anyone would put Collins is there I don't understand. Why because his team is 12-2. He's done nothing outstanding as a qb except not turn the ball over, manage a team with a good running game and a below average passing game. That gets him to the Pro Bowl??? It's about personal performance - how is that measured at the skill postions - stats. If it was about wins then you have to say Big Ben should be there.

I was surprised but happy to see Phillis not going. He should be there based on the season he's having (not his team's having). Which brings me to Cutler the guy is 1st and 2nd in the AFC in 2 of the 3 stats that matter most imo, yds and tds. He should be there, Phillis should be there and Manning as well. But to say guys like Pennington and Collins should be there because they're teams are having great years or turn around years in the Dolphins case is a joke. Just like the Pro Bowl.

p.s - Jason Peters even making the Pro Bowl, let alone making it over Clady strengthens my arguement. Joke.


Pro Bowl is a joke as it generally is a popularity contest anyway. However, i myself kind of look at it both as who is having a great year and how much they mean to their respective teams. At least when i voted thats the approach that i went with. Guys like Collins and Pennington have proven to be huge assets to their teams this year going beyond the numbers angle. If Vince Young had still been starting i dont think Tennesse would be even half as good as they are this year.

Mike
12-17-2008, 11:06 AM
So, have a good running game, a good defense, and don't do anything stupid with the ball...nothing special = Pro Bowl.

MVP is for the players who have meant the most to their teams, IMO. Pro Bowl should be the players that are best at their position. I just do not see how Collins or Pennington can be considered even close to the best of their position.

CoachChaz
12-17-2008, 11:09 AM
If it was just based off numbers i would agree. But, there is more to Qbing than just numbers and as i pointed out in my initial post Jay has done more with a lot less than Phil.

So Gates, Chamber and Jackson are a better receiving trio than the plethera of threats that Denver has? I'd have to disagree


Why Pennington?

Pennington is always one of the more accurate QB's in the NFL. He's lead a 1-15 team from obscurity to the playoffs. he never turns the ball over and he's accomplished all of this with Ted Ginn, Greg Camarillo and Davone Bess.

If we are going to applaud QB's for what they do with what little they have, then Pennington would top the list.

CoachChaz
12-17-2008, 11:13 AM
So, have a good running game, a good defense, and don't do anything stupid with the ball...nothing special = Pro Bowl.

MVP is for the players who have meant the most to their teams, IMO. Pro Bowl should be the players that are best at their position. I just do not see how Collins or Pennington can be considered even close to the best of their position.

Denver has about the same rushing yardage as Miami does. Where does this translate into a "good" running game.

I remember having this argument with goaltenders in hockey. Some goalies are flashy and make incredible saves, but it's because they have to. people always wonder why they arent considered better than the goailies that have the better numbers.

In both situations it comes down to doing your job the right way. Pennington gets the job done without having to make the crazy or dramatic plays. Should he be considered less of a QB because of this?

Requiem / The Dagda
12-17-2008, 11:17 AM
Cutler's look when Clady wasn't announced. . .

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2008/1216/20081216__20081217_C01_SP17FBNBRONX~p1.JPG

Mike
12-17-2008, 11:17 AM
Pennington is always one of the more accurate QB's in the NFL. He's lead a 1-15 team from obscurity to the playoffs. he never turns the ball over and he's accomplished all of this with Ted Ginn, Greg Camarillo and Davone Bess.

If we are going to applaud QB's for what they do with what little they have, then Pennington would top the list.

Good points. Both Collins and Pennington deserve recognition for leading their teams. But can anyone honestly say that those teams are where they are soley based on the QB play?

I agree that he should get recognition for helping the Dolphins. But, for me at least, a good defense combined with a good running game kind of takes away something from that argument. He is playing the role that the team needs (not unlike what Denver did with Plummer) and the team is doing good. Not because he is the best at his position, but because he is playing his role. Nothing wrong with that, it doesn't take anything away from what he has done, but it doesn't mean he is amongst the tops at his position.

Northman
12-17-2008, 11:27 AM
So, have a good running game, a good defense, and don't do anything stupid with the ball...nothing special = Pro Bowl.

MVP is for the players who have meant the most to their teams, IMO. Pro Bowl should be the players that are best at their position. I just do not see how Collins or Pennington can be considered even close to the best of their position.

Although i agree with the points you bring up about them not being the best at their respective positions you really cant deny that they havent been just as important to their teams. Defensively, Miami and Tenn have not changed that much and no one really saw Chris Johnson being as much as an impact as he has been this year. Im not necessarily saying those guys deserve it over anyone else i can just see the arguement for them.

Northman
12-17-2008, 11:31 AM
So Gates, Chamber and Jackson are a better receiving trio than the plethera of threats that Denver has? I'd have to disagree





So you think that Shef is better than Gates? I think not.

Brandon better than Chambers? Yes. But Chambers is a good receiver and has proven so at Miami and in SD so he is not a scrub.

And for Jackson, i think that guy has began to make a name for himself. But even with the lack of experience he has he does have more than Royal even though i think Eddie will surpasse him in the long run. Pennington has far less to throw too than Rivers does. To try and claim that Rivers doesnt have anyone to throw too is ludicrous.

CoachChaz
12-17-2008, 11:37 AM
Good points. Both Collins and Pennington deserve recognition for leading their teams. But can anyone honestly say that those teams are where they are soley based on the QB play?

I agree that he should get recognition for helping the Dolphins. But, for me at least, a good defense combined with a good running game kind of takes away something from that argument. He is playing the role that the team needs (not unlike what Denver did with Plummer) and the team is doing good. Not because he is the best at his position, but because he is playing his role. Nothing wrong with that, it doesn't take anything away from what he has done, but it doesn't mean he is amongst the tops at his position.

but look at Chad's numbers. Over 3000 passing yards. Lowest int ratio...not all of that can be attributed to a running game that is merely middle of the pack.

Cutler's running game is equal to Miami's, but he also has an incredible line and MUCH more receiving talent. So, I guess I would expect his numbers to be elevated a little bit. Sure, his defense doesnt help much, but it's not like Miami has a top 10 squad either.

I wont argue that Cutler should be recognized for his efforts, but I think there are a few guys more deserving than him right now. He'll get plenty of invitations to the game before his career is done.

Orange Habit
12-17-2008, 11:37 AM
As has been said elsewhere, if you want to argue that Rivers should have made it, argue that he should have made it over Brett Favre.

CoachChaz
12-17-2008, 11:45 AM
So you think that Shef is better than Gates? I think not.

Brandon better than Chambers? Yes. But Chambers is a good receiver and has proven so at Miami and in SD so he is not a scrub.

And for Jackson, i think that guy has began to make a name for himself. But even with the lack of experience he has he does have more than Royal even though i think Eddie will surpasse him in the long run. Pennington has far less to throw too than Rivers does. To try and claim that Rivers doesnt have anyone to throw too is ludicrous.

I never said Rivers "doesnt have anyone to throw to". I said Denver has more talent than San Diego in the receiving department.

Gates is Gates and there is no denying the talent there, but put his numbers against the combo of Sheff and Graham (which you have to due to Sheff's injury plague) and you get the same result.

Jackson is pretty much just a deep threat adn while he is formidable, I would never compare him to Marshall.

Chambers is good? Maybe but 28 receptions on the year would typically dictate otherwise. Especially when compared to the 75 catches his rookie counterpart has.

now after those 3, let's look at depth. Is malcom Floyd the same threat from the slot that Stokely is? What about Buster Davis as a 4th reciever compared to Jackson? Then, let's assume Sheff and gates go down. Is Manumaleuna in the same class as Graham?

the total package is definately in favor of Cutler, but Rivers has made the most of it.

Lonestar
12-17-2008, 11:53 AM
Pro-Bowl is a joke. Clady outperformed everyone perhaps Michael Roos this year at the position as a rookie. I just take satisfaction in knowing Harris and Clady kicked ass this year and regardless if they get their due or not. Why? Cause we have a 23 year old (Harris) and 22 year old (Clady) set of tackles who should be here in Denver for a whole decade if things go right.

We have a franchise quarterback, we have two great young receivers with some savvy veterans around them and have some power at the TE position as well. We have guys like Kuper and Lichtensteiger as well; who should be here to help as well. Can't forget Hillis who was a man's man on the field either.

Get us another offensive weapon or two -- and even a decent defense and this team will take off.


Great post, but not sure where your gonna put another offensive weapon..

I think what killed this team this year was a horrible defense with few really lousy player and zero scheme.. the only thing that saved it from being the worst in the league was injuries to some of those skells.. (not DJ or Champ) other wise the enthusiasm of the rookies would not have happened and perhaps saved it from total collapse....

and another HUGE factor was inconsistency on offense, from Jay in particular and Almost no running game until Hillis BURST on the scene.. that inconsistency is almost 100% do to the number of kiddies playing one of the most intricate playbooks in all of football..

At the beginning of this year I thought 2009 was our year once these kids had played together a year and had some confidence they could be un-stoppable.. Royale, Clady, Kuper, Harris (who is really a rookie in playing time), Hillis, and Jay. then factor in all of the defensive kiddies and this team has a bright future IF they can find A DL coach and DC that can find their asses with both hands..

Maybe through in a Strength coach refresher course on groins 101 and Hammy 204 and we may do something for the next 6-10 years..

BroncoWave
12-17-2008, 12:06 PM
Yeah, ESPN was having a shitfest on Cutler yesterday. I was trying to think of what he did to piss them off then it hit me...he plays west of the Mississippi. That alone is enough to get ESPN to hate you.

Lonestar
12-17-2008, 12:08 PM
Yeah, ESPN was having a shitfest on Cutler yesterday. I was trying to think of what he did to piss them off then it hit me...he plays WEST of the Mississippi. That alone is enough to get ESPN to hate you.

corrected for accuracy.. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

BroncoWave
12-17-2008, 12:10 PM
corrected for accuracy.. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Oops, sorry. Fixed it!

Lonestar
12-17-2008, 12:11 PM
Oops, sorry. Fixed it!

college kids when will they learn?:laugh::laugh::rolleyes::laugh:

BroncoWave
12-17-2008, 12:45 PM
Add Skip Bayless and Jamal Anderson to the list of ESPN talking heads saying players like Roethlisberger, Cassel, and Rivers should have gone over Cutler. Now both of them are morons so I'm not too worried about what they think but I really hope Cutler has been watching ESPN the last 2 days because if the shitstorm they have been giving him doesn't give him some extra motivation, I don't know what will.

honz
12-17-2008, 01:06 PM
Just cuz we all hate him doesn't mean he isn't any good.

Blasphemer...get out of here.

Buff
12-17-2008, 04:20 PM
Add Skip Bayless and Jamal Anderson to the list of ESPN talking heads saying players like Roethlisberger, Cassel, and Rivers should have gone over Cutler. Now both of them are morons so I'm not too worried about what they think but I really hope Cutler has been watching ESPN the last 2 days because if the shitstorm they have been giving him doesn't give him some extra motivation, I don't know what will.

Have they seen Roethlisberger play this year? How could you possibly make the case he's had a pro bowl year?


I agree with everything Mike has said in regard to who is deserving and who isn't at the QB position. I think the Pro Bowl is a measure of individual talent, not who has fit into the framework of their team the best...

Pennington has had a very efficient year and managed the game the way the Dolphins needed it to be managed-- but there is no way you could make the case that he is one of the top 3 QB's in the conference after this year. Anyone who's watched him play would admit this much.

Much as I hate Rivers-- he is 10x more deserving than Collins or Pennington. Last I checked, those 2 never struck fear in the hearts of defenders.

topscribe
12-17-2008, 04:32 PM
I suppose nothing was said about Jason "I play on a turnstile" Peters' being
selected instead of Clady.

So some thought Phyllis was punked. Big whoop. I know Clady was punked.

-----

GEM
12-17-2008, 05:15 PM
How can anyone take the Pro Bowl seriously when the Redskins fans went nuts on voting and it was made public?

Teams performance shouldn't impact individual's getting in. We have the #1 offensive line in football and not 1 of our guys got in. Why should Pennington be any different? Collins? Eli Manning is rated 16th in the league as a QB.

Pro Bowl is a joke....usually not even worth watching. :coffee:

Buff
12-17-2008, 05:19 PM
How can anyone take the Pro Bowl seriously when the Redskins fans went nuts on voting and it was made public?

Teams performance shouldn't impact individual's getting in. We have the #1 offensive line in football and not 1 of our guys got in. Why should Pennington be any different? Collins? Eli Manning is rated 16th in the league as a QB.

Pro Bowl is a joke....usually not even worth watching. :coffee:

Supposedly this is the last year the pro bowl will be in hawaii at it's current date... They're trying to work something out to have it the week before the super bowl at the super bowl's location...

Though that would throw things off a bit, because super bowl participants couldn't play so I imagine they'd have more alternates playing.

Haven't heard whether or not this is for sure.

GEM
12-17-2008, 05:20 PM
How can anyone take the Pro Bowl seriously when the Redskins fans went nuts on voting and it was made public?

Teams performance shouldn't impact individual's getting in. We have the #1 offensive line in football and not 1 of our guys got in. Why should Pennington be any different? Collins? Eli Manning is rated 16th in the league as a QB.

Pro Bowl is a joke....usually not even worth watching. :coffee:

Just to add......Romo has Eli beat in almost all categories with 3 less games. :coffee:

GEM
12-17-2008, 05:22 PM
Supposedly this is the last year the pro bowl will be in hawaii at it's current date... They're trying to work something out to have it the week before the super bowl at the super bowl's location...

Though that would throw things off a bit, because super bowl participants couldn't play so I imagine they'd have more alternates playing.

Haven't heard whether or not this is for sure.

Mark Schlereth had it right the other night. He said to make the Pro Bowl worth anything again...take the fans vote out and even the players vote out. Put it on the coaches exclusively. Until that happens, the game just remains a popularity contest. It really should be the BEST of each position...and there should be stats that provide a basis for getting in.

:shrugs:

WARHORSE
12-17-2008, 05:41 PM
Cutler got the spot, over Rivers and Pennington and Collins(???)

Hes made an impression on both the pundits and the fans.

Since that is where the positions are determined...........thats where it lies.


Its always been that way...........and always will until they change the system.

I think the pro bowl balloting should be determined by the coaches, the coordinators, the GMs and the position coaches.

Afterall, those are the guys who really know what they have to deal with on a week to week basis in each of the players.


Until it moves in that direction............look for guys like Abraham to be falling through the cracks.:coffee:

WARHORSE
12-17-2008, 05:42 PM
Blasphemer...get out of here.


lol.

Yeah dude! Rivers SUCKS!!!!:salute:



;)

WARHORSE
12-17-2008, 05:43 PM
Mark Schlereth had it right the other night. He said to make the Pro Bowl worth anything again...take the fans vote out and even the players vote out. Put it on the coaches exclusively. Until that happens, the game just remains a popularity contest. It really should be the BEST of each position...and there should be stats that provide a basis for getting in.

:shrugs:


Ya beat me to it by a hair. :coffee:

Northman
12-17-2008, 05:49 PM
I suppose nothing was said about Jason "I play on a turnstile" Peters' being
selected instead of Clady.

So some thought Phyllis was punked. Big whoop. I know Clady was punked.

-----

Nah, i mentioned a lot of them though Peters should of never made it. A lot of them thought Clady deserved the nod.

Northman
12-17-2008, 05:51 PM
Mark Schlereth had it right the other night. He said to make the Pro Bowl worth anything again...take the fans vote out and even the players vote out. Put it on the coaches exclusively. Until that happens, the game just remains a popularity contest. It really should be the BEST of each position...and there should be stats that provide a basis for getting in.

:shrugs:


Actually, i would be happy with a MVP type of philosphy. This is why i really have no problem with a guy like Pennington or Collins going. But either way, they do need to take the fan vote out.

NameUsedBefore
12-17-2008, 06:25 PM
Rivers, Manning and Cutler, IMO.

Rivers has been playing pretty well on a disturbingly talented but poorly coached team. They simply haven't been able to put it together which is very strange, not to mention poorly timed as Rivers can actually play ball now and not be a huge hindrance like he used to be (no more 3 INT, 2 fumble+ games that result in a win).

Cutler has been making do with having absolutely no running game, that is, one on paper. Hear me out: Yes, Hillis and the other batch of back-up RBs have run decently with us. But that doesn't mean that the running game has supported the passing game, it means the passing game has been supporting the running game. While Hillis blasts through the hole, one has to take notice that the defense was always ready for the pass anyway. When Cutler threads the needle between two or three defenders and the commentators go "Wow, that was dangerous." I often see no other pass that wouldn't have been dangerous. Teams have been gameplanning against Cutler's arm pretty much the whole season. (And thank goodness we have an offensive line, wow. Clady was easily a snub, but you could also argue that so were some other O-lineman they've all been blocking so well.)

Manning... Well, no explanation needed.

omac
12-17-2008, 06:56 PM
but look at Chad's numbers. Over 3000 passing yards. Lowest int ratio...not all of that can be attributed to a running game that is merely middle of the pack.

Cutler's running game is equal to Miami's, but he also has an incredible line and MUCH more receiving talent. So, I guess I would expect his numbers to be elevated a little bit. Sure, his defense doesnt help much, but it's not like Miami has a top 10 squad either.

I wont argue that Cutler should be recognized for his efforts, but I think there are a few guys more deserving than him right now. He'll get plenty of invitations to the game before his career is done.

Chad's doing a great job, but without a solid rushing offense and a dependable defense behind him, he doesn't do nearly as good. He's looked terrible with the Jets when the Jets had a poor rushing offense, and with that same team, he's looked terrible when trying to win games, yes even making costly turnovers to kill needed drives. Pennington is at his best when he can manage the game ... then his passing becomes more consistent and effective. He is the leader of the offense, but to stay effective, he needs Brown and Williams to perform. He may not have great receivers, but he does have an great tandem of RBs to grind down opponents, either of which are far better than what we currently have available.

Rivers has done a great job with the Chargers, and he probably deserves the probowl too. One thing that escapes most people who like to look at his numbers ... his teams have lost the close ones a lot this season. Usually though, not his fault, but still a factor.

Cutler, on the other hand ... even if you throw away the big numbers he's put up, we've seen first hand in a lot of games this season where he's brought the team back from a deficit to win. All this without a consistent #1 RB (changes almost weekly) and a Jekyll and Hyde defense. People seem to forget that after a poor performance or a bad loss.

Not hating on Collins (who I've always believed was better than Young) and Pennington (who I predicted that Parcells would snatch when he was available), as they are a big part of their team's success, but it's rare that they are called to carry the load for their teams. Cutler has, Rivers has. Though I think Schaub is an excellent QB, part of being valuable for your team is actually playing for them, and he's so far been pretty fragile these past 2 seasons. Kubes had better give him an OL. Manning's sucked for the early part of the season (strangely, so has Addai ... coincidence?), but has been coming on strong late.

Cutler deserves the probowl nod, and most would agree had he gotten it after the Browns win or the Jets win or the Falcons win. But after the Panthers loss, he now doesn't? :coffee: (by the way, this last statement was not on you, Coach)

Lonestar
12-17-2008, 09:10 PM
let me say that the pro bowl is a reward fro players plus an extra pay day for them.. the mega stars with gazillion dollar contracts could care less except for the ego trip.. that is why many skip it with hang nail excuses..

But it also a profit center for the NFL and profit is driven by fans and ratings take the fan voting out and you lose some fan support..

Did you ever wonder why when the east coast teams are playing well that those HUGE demographic bases are overly represented.. The Gianst have like 9 players going.. give me a break.. the Brett's have 4-6 going..

So we all know that the NYC area has the most TV viewers surprise, surprise, surprise.....

I do not see the fans losing the ability to vote..

omac
12-17-2008, 10:13 PM
let me say that the pro bowl is a reward fro players plus an extra pay day for them.. the mega stars with gazillion dollar contracts could care less except for the ego trip.. that is why many skip it with hang nail excuses..

But it also a profit center for the NFL and profit is driven by fans and ratings take the fan voting out and you lose some fan support..

Did you ever wonder why when the east coast teams are playing well that those HUGE demographic bases are overly represented.. The Gianst have like 9 players going.. give me a break.. the Brett's have 4-6 going..

So we all know that the NYC area has the most TV viewers surprise, surprise, surprise.....

I do not see the fans losing the ability to vote..

I agree. I also don't think the fans should lose the ability to vote, and not just for the profitability of the NFL.

A commentator mentioned that today's average NFL fans are much more informed or football savvy than the ones before. He mentioned that now, so many fans watch the draft intensely so that it's a big thing on tv, whereas long ago, only the ultra-hardcore would take notice.

Besides the voting, and besides all the info from the net, the NFL is more interactive more than ever. Because of the widespread popularity of fantasy football, people pro-actively research players and teams, not just their own.

This sense of connectivity with the fans has not only benefited the NFL profit-wise, but it's also made the game much more fun and accessible for everybody. Some TV shows rely solely on this interactivity with the fans to boost their ratings; the NFL has a real product, and this augments it.

deacon
12-17-2008, 10:50 PM
Just cuz we all hate him doesn't mean he isn't any good.

|I can't stand that whiner but he's having a great year and should be in the pro bowl. Peyton Manning is the one I'd leave off this year. He (and Favre for that matter) are both on the team only because of reputation.

hamrob
12-17-2008, 10:58 PM
Who would any of you rather have...Jay C or Rivers. End of disucussion. Jay deserves to be there...hands down! He is more valuable to the Broncos than Rivers is to the chargers. This is obvious...both by their records and the fact that if we didn't have Cutler we would have been lucky to have won 4 games this year!

Northman
12-18-2008, 06:31 AM
the fact that if we didn't have Cutler we would have been lucky to have won 4 games this year!

Yep. This is why i made the comment about Qb's being more important than just stats. The proof is in the pudding, if Jay is on his game we win. If not, well you know.

LRtagger
12-18-2008, 09:50 AM
Bleh who cares. The Pro Bowl is a joke....and the analysts talking about X should have made it over Y are an even bigger joke. The people, players, and coaches voted. No one cares what your fat never even played HS football ass thinks.

GEM
12-18-2008, 10:16 AM
I would venture to say that Rivers behavior played a part in him not getting votes. He rubs people the wrong way. If you like him, you love him for it. If you aren't a fan of SD, it doesn't sit well. Add to that he is on a West Coast team and the guys who do a lot of the voting probably don't like this West Coast big mouth (as they see him). Just a thought.

SmilinAssasSin27
12-19-2008, 07:50 PM
|I can't stand that whiner but he's having a great year and should be in the pro bowl. Peyton Manning is the one I'd leave off this year. He (and Favre for that matter) are both on the team only because of reputation.


Umm...no.

he's gonna be the league MVP.

weazel
12-20-2008, 12:37 AM
no love?? I dont think he deserves to be on the list...

Northman
12-20-2008, 08:26 AM
no love?? I dont think he deserves to be on the list...


Your opinion of course. But you've been wrong quite a few times so your forgiven. :D

jrelway
12-20-2008, 12:38 PM
with our luck on injuries, i wouldnt mind seeing jay and brandon at home during the probowl.

fcspikeit
12-20-2008, 05:32 PM
If it were all about the numbers they wouldn't have the, fans, coaches and players vote them in.

Its about being respected by the league. What has Rivers done to earn respect? Did he think yelling at the opposing QB from the sideline was going to be seen as a respectable thing to do? How about disrespecting the Colts fans? Do you think guys like Champ Bailey would vote for him?

Maybe if he wasn't such a little punk he would be liked or at least respected... I wouldn't vote for the guy regardless of his #'s, he is a classless jurk. Maybe this will be a wake up call to knock it off and grow up?

As for Cutler, it is pretty clear he is respected, evidently the coaches and players don't feel he is as bad in press conferences as some would like us to believe..

lex
12-20-2008, 07:10 PM
This is E!SPN. What else is new? Greenberg is a Jets fan and has a soft spot for Pennington. I agree with Mike, that it should be Cutler, Rivers, and Manning. As many have said, Pennington needs more help and is more limited in the throws he can make (which is why he needs more help)...plus he has the better defense. Theyre basing this too much on wins. Football is a team sport. Manning, Cutler, and Rivers have been doing the most heavy lifting for the AFC teams. Schaub could have made a case but he missed too much time. Roethlisberger has had his moments but its hard to make a case for him. When you compare his stats to others, you see how strong Pittsburgh is on defense and at running the football. Favre doesnt even belong in this discussion. Greenberg has been saying the Jets do better when they are less reliant on Favre.

atwater27
12-21-2008, 09:54 AM
Cutler has had 3 or 4 games this year where he deserved to be the Pro Bowl starter. He has also had 3 or 4 games where he looked like Jeff George. If he can get more consistent, he will be a Pro Bowl fixture for years to come. And maybe an NFL MVP.

Lonestar
12-21-2008, 12:04 PM
Cutler has had 3 or 4 games this year where he deserved to be the Pro Bowl starter. He has also had 3 or 4 games where he looked like Jeff George. If he can get more consistent, he will be a Pro Bowl fixture for years to come. And maybe an NFL MVP.

not so sure about the MVP thingy that usually means one is carrying the team or they are from a NYC team..:laugh::laugh:

But your correct about Jay being up and down like a YO YO..

The book on him supposedly if you get in his grill early, it rattles him and he is off his game from that point on..

I have noticed that in many of the games if he is not having a good game he sets on the bench by himself not interacting with his teammates.. some what reminiscent of Brain Greasy playing mind games with himself....

rcsodak
12-21-2008, 02:36 PM
Just cuz we all hate him doesn't mean he isn't any good.


Collins and Pennington? Give me a break. Game managers, nothing more. Both defenses carry a lot of the load and both have good to great running games.

Rivers should be in. LT stinks this year and for the most part Phillis has had to carry the Chargers. Very similiar to Cutler.

Manning, Cutler, Rivers are the best QBs in the AFC and should be at the Pro Bowl.

I don't know I'd say those 3 are the "best QBs in the AFC". Look what Cassell has done for NE. Pennington is more than just a game manager. Otherwise he'd just have pedestrian numbers. Flacco is more of a game manager. He just has to not turn the ball over - that's managing a game.

W-Rivers, Cutler
E-Favre,Pennington,Cassell
N-Roth,Flacco,
S-Manning,Schaub(when he plays),Collins

I'd say Collins is the least worthy, but the rest could make their cases.

fcspikeit
12-21-2008, 02:47 PM
I don't know I'd say those 3 are the "best QBs in the AFC". Look what Cassell has done for NE. Pennington is more than just a game manager. Otherwise he'd just have pedestrian numbers. Flacco is more of a game manager. He just has to not turn the ball over - that's managing a game.

W-Rivers, Cutler
E-Favre,Pennington,Cassell
N-Roth,Flacco,
S-Manning,Collins

I'd say Collins is the least worthy, but the rest could make their cases.

I think all have cases but only 3 can get in... You think Favre is playing better then Pennington and Cassell this year, or just better in general over his carrier?

IMO, Favre has earned respect, so I can see why he would get the nod over Rivers. You have to be respected if your going to be an all pro in this league..

rcsodak
12-22-2008, 01:20 AM
Case in point!
How many int's has cutler thrown, in the redzone?

Or how about his pick-6's?

Then he sulks....n sits all by his lonesome on the bench.

He's simply not a mature player....and I'm not sure it's even in him to be one, honestly.

Just my opinion.

silkamilkamonico
12-22-2008, 01:39 AM
Case in point!
How many int's has cutler thrown, in the redzone?

Or how about his pick-6's?

Then he sulks....n sits all by his lonesome on the bench.

He's simply not a mature player....and I'm not sure it's even in him to be one, honestly.

Just my opinion.


I'm sure he's pizzed off and thinking, get me out of this godforsaken, no defense playing, glass gina running backsaken, washed up coaching garbage run organization. Almost 10 years of mediocrity spiraling downward speaks for itself.

Lonestar
12-22-2008, 01:52 AM
I sated when Jay was drafted here he would rue the day he was..

I have to wonder when setting on the bench like today, if those thoughts run through his head..

Shazam!
12-22-2008, 02:26 AM
If I was Jay, totally responsible for the success of the team without a running game or defense, considered the next QB-god in Denver, and having to play near perfect to win, I'd be on the sidelines feeling occassionally dejected too.

topscribe
12-22-2008, 02:27 AM
Well, it's starting. I saw the same progression in Elway's early years. There
were those who wanted to run him out on a rail, and he nearly quit. Now,
there is an anti-Cutler segment forming in the same way. I wondered how long
it would take as the young quarterback tried to progress and mature, as he
just recently finished his second year on the field.

-----

Shazam!
12-22-2008, 02:30 AM
...this godforsaken, no defense playing, glass gina running backsaken, washed up coaching garbage run organization. Almost 10 years of mediocrity spiraling downward speaks for itself.

Most of Denver's problems are Shanahan's fault.

Northman
12-22-2008, 06:42 AM
Well, it's starting. I saw the same progression in Elway's early years. There
were those who wanted to run him out on a rail, and he nearly quit. Now,
there is an anti-Cutler segment forming in the same way. I wondered how long
it would take as the young quarterback tried to progress and mature, as he
just recently finished his second year on the field.

-----


:lol:

Aint it the truth?

roomemp
12-22-2008, 08:28 AM
Well, it's starting. I saw the same progression in Elway's early years. There
were those who wanted to run him out on a rail, and he nearly quit. Now,
there is an anti-Cutler segment forming in the same way. I wondered how long
it would take as the young quarterback tried to progress and mature, as he
just recently finished his second year on the field.

-----


People didn't stop critisizing Elway till he won the Super Bowl. What was that 14 years into his career. Cutler is the real deal and I wouldn't want anyone else back there. I love that fire he brings.

atwater27
12-22-2008, 08:53 AM
Case in point!
How many int's has cutler thrown, in the redzone?

Or how about his pick-6's?

Then he sulks....n sits all by his lonesome on the bench.

He's simply not a mature player....and I'm not sure it's even in him to be one, honestly.

Just my opinion.

Booooooooooooooooooooo!

Medford Bronco
12-22-2008, 09:44 AM
As much as I hate him, Rivers deserves the Pro Bowl

rcsodak
12-24-2008, 12:19 AM
Well, it's starting. I saw the same progression in Elway's early years. There
were those who wanted to run him out on a rail, and he nearly quit. Now,
there is an anti-Cutler segment forming in the same way. I wondered how long
it would take as the young quarterback tried to progress and mature, as he
just recently finished his second year on the field.

-----

Correction: "second year and 5/16th on the field".

You're welcome. :laugh:

weazel
12-27-2008, 08:51 PM
I am not anti-Cutler, far from it. I think he is a good quarterback and in time will be able to be a winner in this league. I just think at this point in time he is immature and lacks composure. He is better than half the other quarterbacks in this league and is in no way the reason why this team is losing. Look at the coaching, D, RB situations to figure that one out.

rcsodak
12-28-2008, 10:23 PM
Well, I see cutler's at his usual staring down a receiver and throwing another pick in the endzone.

Hmmmm.....he just keeps getting, 'better', doesn't he..... :coffee:

His problem is he gets pissed, then loses his frickin' mind. He needs to grow up, and FAST! Or this team will be mediocre each and every year.

And all you cutler jock sniffers need to take off your :cool: and man up and admit he's faulty. 3yrs into his career, and he's still not a winner....nor does he have "it".

Requiem / The Dagda
12-28-2008, 10:26 PM
He's got diabetes dude, give him a break.

weazel
12-28-2008, 10:28 PM
...but he throws harder than Elway! lmao

Requiem / The Dagda
12-28-2008, 10:35 PM
Does he harass women like John?

topscribe
12-28-2008, 11:30 PM
Five dropped passes.

Royal drops pass. Drive killed.
Royal drops pass. Drive killed.
Stokely drops pass. Drive killed.
Marshall drops pass. Drive killed.
Scheffler drops pass. Drive killed.

Yes, and the defense gives up a record 289 rushing yards.

Yeah, so why don't we all get our panties in a wad over Cutler?

-----

Watchthemiddle
12-28-2008, 11:31 PM
Five dropped passes.

Royal drops pass. Drive killed.
Royal drops pass. Drive killed.
Stokely drops pass. Drive killed.
Marshall drops pass. Drive killed.
Scheffler drops pass. Drive killed.

Yes, and the defense gives up a record 289 rushing yards.

Yeah, so why don't we all get our panties in a wad over Cutler?

-----

Don't forget INT in the endzone before half. Drive killed.

topscribe
12-28-2008, 11:34 PM
Don't forget INT in the endzone before half. Drive killed.

Even Madden said he did not disagree with that pass. He said it was just superlative coverage.

But you're right. Cutler's ONE mistake overwhelms the receivers' FIVE mistakes. :confused:

-----

Watchthemiddle
12-28-2008, 11:35 PM
Even Madden said he did not disagree with that pass. He said it was just superlative coverage.

But you're right. Cutler's ONE mistake overwhelms the receivers' FIVE mistakes. :confused:

-----


Collective effort

Never said it overwhelmed it, but sure didn't help the cause

topscribe
12-28-2008, 11:41 PM
Collective effort

Never said it overwhelmed it, but sure didn't help the cause

The player who has been getting trashed here is CUTLER. Where have the
others been mentioned other than in my post? To read you guys, Cutler lost
the game all by himself. Cutler is getting the same idiotic trashing that Jake
did after the postseason games against Indy.

Okay, you win: Cutler lost the game all by himself. Move over Ryan Leaf . . .

-----

SmilinAssasSin27
12-28-2008, 11:47 PM
BM leads the lead in drops. Even has more than Braylon Edwards. Also had the HUGE fumble at the 50 vs Buffalo. Speaking of Buffalo, didn't Stokley drop a TD that likely woulda put the game out of reach? That can't help things.

Watchthemiddle
12-28-2008, 11:55 PM
BM leads the lead in drops. Even has more than Braylon Edwards. Also had the HUGE fumble at the 50 vs Buffalo. Speaking of Buffalo, didn't Stokley drop a TD that likely woulda put the game out of reach? That can't help things.


Stokely did drop it. How about that one when he was wide open and Cutler over threw in by 4 yards in the endzone? Or the int on the goal line?

- anyway -

Speaking of BM, I wonder how much that off season run in with the TV hurt his hand and his catching ability.

pumpdoc
12-29-2008, 12:13 AM
He's got diabetes dude, give him a break.

So what, I've got type 1(same as) wear a pump and work every day.

Simple Jaded
12-29-2008, 12:22 AM
Well, I see cutler's at his usual staring down a receiver and throwing another pick in the endzone.

Hmmmm.....he just keeps getting, 'better', doesn't he..... :coffee:

His problem is he gets pissed, then loses his frickin' mind. He needs to grow up, and FAST! Or this team will be mediocre each and every year.

And all you cutler jock sniffers need to take off your :cool: and man up and admit he's faulty. 3yrs into his career, and he's still not a winner....nor does he have "it".

If this was Jake Plummer you'd be sniffing his jock.

Quit blaming the QB, it's no less ridiculous now than when the tables were turned.

3 years into Cutler's career and he's already better than any Broncos QB not named Elway.......

Simple Jaded
12-29-2008, 12:25 AM
Paul Oliver played that ball better than Marshall did, Marshall just stood there with his thumb up his ass waiting for the ball to come to him.......

Skinny
12-29-2008, 12:42 AM
Dropped passes thru Dec.22, 2008...

1 Braylon Edwards Cle 16
2 Dwayne Bowe KC 13
3 Brandon Marshall Den 11
4t Calvin Johnson Det 9
4t Terrell Owens Dal 9
4t Roddy White Atl 9
7t Laveranues Coles NYJ 8
7t Marcedes Lewis Jac 8
7t Marshawn Lynch Buf 8
10t Bernard Berrian Min 7


WashingtonPost.com (http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232)

JONtheBRONCO
12-29-2008, 01:31 AM
Where's Tubby when you need him? This thread deserves a big pile of dump. Cutler is going to be great. 2nd season starting, 3rd in the league - and some people expect him to be the best QB in the NFL. Cutler is picking the game up and at times SHINED. Give the dude a break.

CrazyHorse
12-29-2008, 01:52 AM
Where's Tubby when you need him? This thread deserves a big pile of dump. Cutler is going to be great. 2nd season starting, 3rd in the league - and some people expect him to be the best QB in the NFL. Cutler is picking the game up and at times SHINED. Give the dude a break.

If only those picks in the Endzone were touchdowns instead.

Simple Jaded
12-29-2008, 01:54 AM
Dropped passes thru Dec.22, 2008...

1 Braylon Edwards Cle 16
2 Dwayne Bowe KC 13
3 Brandon Marshall Den 11
4t Calvin Johnson Det 9
4t Terrell Owens Dal 9
4t Roddy White Atl 9
7t Laveranues Coles NYJ 8
7t Marcedes Lewis Jac 8
7t Marshawn Lynch Buf 8
10t Bernard Berrian Min 7


WashingtonPost.com (http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232)

Three of those dropped passes were for TD's.......

tomjonesrocks
12-29-2008, 01:55 AM
If only those picks in the Endzone were touchdowns instead.

Today, if Cutler would have thrown a TD instead of the INT in the endzone, at one point semi-late in the game we would have only been down by 10.

Oh yeah, this loss is on Cutler.

CrazyHorse
12-29-2008, 01:56 AM
Dropped passes thru Dec.22, 2008...

1 Braylon Edwards Cle 16
2 Dwayne Bowe KC 13
3 Brandon Marshall Den 11
4t Calvin Johnson Det 9
4t Terrell Owens Dal 9
4t Roddy White Atl 9
7t Laveranues Coles NYJ 8
7t Marcedes Lewis Jac 8
7t Marshawn Lynch Buf 8
10t Bernard Berrian Min 7


WashingtonPost.com (http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232)

All those recievers must suck right?

CrazyHorse
12-29-2008, 02:00 AM
Today, if Cutler would have thrown a TD instead of the INT in the endzone, at one point semi-late in the game we would have only been down by 10.

Oh yeah, this loss is on Cutler.

No, but I think he's thrown 4 in red zone this year. If those are TD's he breaks Plummer's record.
I hope he gets better. A great running back would help him immensely.

tomjonesrocks
12-29-2008, 02:04 AM
No, but I think he's thrown 4 in red zone this year. If those are TD's he breaks Plummer's record.
I hope he get's better. A great running back would help him immensely.

He needs a better defense more than he needs a better RB. Having to score on every possession is leading him to mistakes. I can't recall a year where I felt so strongly that not scoring on a single drive had me thinking "well, that's probably the ballgame" like this season. Take that pressure off him and he'll stop forcing throws. I really don't think he's inherently prone to mistakes the way Plummer was -- but time will tell.

BTW--was our overall red-zone offense this year not drastically improved over last year's?

Simple Jaded
12-29-2008, 02:05 AM
No, but I think he's thrown 4 in red zone this year. If those are TD's he breaks Plummer's record.
I hope he get's better. A great running back would help him immensely.

Cutler has had 8 TD's dropped this season and another one that we won't count because he still threw a TD on that drive.......

CrazyHorse
12-29-2008, 02:09 AM
Cutler has had 8 TD's dropped this season and another one that we won't count because he still threw a TD on that drive.......

8 drops and 4 picks?
That's 12 touchdowns right there.
By this logic Cutler SHOULD have thrown 37 TD's this year!

Northman
12-29-2008, 09:24 AM
Cutler is fine. Honestly, if people are too retarded and cant see the glaring issues outside of a young QB i cant help them in that dept.

topscribe
12-29-2008, 11:54 AM
Today, if Cutler would have thrown a TD instead of the INT in the endzone, at one point semi-late in the game we would have only been down by 10.

Oh yeah, this loss is on Cutler.


Cutler is fine. Honestly, if people are too retarded and cant see the glaring issues outside of a young QB i cant help them in that dept.


Shades of Jake Plummer and Indianapolis. :tsk:

After both playoff games against Indy, Plummer was the one so many people
threw under the bus, even though he played a decent game in each of those
and the defense could not stop anybody.

Now, Cutler plays a decent game (would have been better, had five drive-
killing passes not been dropped), and the defense could not stop anybody.
And now people want to throw him under the bus.

It's time to get a little more sound in football fundamentals around here . . .

-----

eessydo
12-29-2008, 12:45 PM
If the voting process was changed to the end of the year it would have been Rivers over Cutler.

Cutler opened the season on fire, and Rivers was no slouch. He didn't lose those games for the Chargers, the defense did.

Down the stretch (WHEN IT COUNTS I MIGHT ADD) Rivers was significantly better than Cutler.

When voting occured Cutler had the edge but as much as I can't stand the guy, Rivers was better when it mattered (OBVIOUSLY)

rcsodak
12-31-2008, 06:01 PM
Five dropped passes.

Royal drops pass. Drive killed. 100mph and high
Royal drops pass. Drive killed.see above
Stokely drops pass. Drive killed.no excuse
Marshall drops pass. Drive killed.see above
Scheffler drops pass. Drive killed.i missed it

Yes, and the defense gives up a record 289 rushing yards.

Yeah, so why don't we all get our panties in a wad over Cutler?

-----

Maybe if cutler would learn some touch. Maybe if cutler would learn to control his emotions. Notice how hard he was throwing the short passes/screens? Hell,NOBODY could catch those. He gets pissed off, then loses his frickin' mind.

Who lead the league in turnovers in the redzone? Cutler, I do believe.

Top, it's admirable of you to 'have his back', but even you can see his inability to control his emotions... I'm wondering, if after being compared to Favre, if he thinks he IS Favre. Can he not learn how to look-off defenders? Can he not learn to not throw into double/triple coverage? Can he not learn to throw it away if there's nobody open?

Simple questions, really. But deserving of asking, nonetheless.

rcsodak
12-31-2008, 06:03 PM
Even Madden said he did not disagree with that pass. He said it was just superlative coverage.

But you're right. Cutler's ONE mistake overwhelms the receivers' FIVE mistakes. :confused:

-----

The same Madden that comments on how a players' contacts help his sight? :confused:

rcsodak
12-31-2008, 06:04 PM
The player who has been getting trashed here is CUTLER. Where have the
others been mentioned other than in my post? To read you guys, Cutler lost
the game all by himself. Cutler is getting the same idiotic trashing that Jake
did after the postseason games against Indy.

Okay, you win: Cutler lost the game all by himself. Move over Ryan Leaf . . .

-----
Wow....


....whodathunkit! :eek:

rcsodak
12-31-2008, 06:12 PM
If this was Jake Plummer you'd be sniffing his jock.

Quit blaming the QB, it's no less ridiculous now than when the tables were turned.

3 years into Cutler's career and he's already better than any Broncos QB not named Elway.......

You mean the Jake Plummer that had a winning record with denver? The same Jake Plummer that could actually go more than one game without throwing an interception? The same Jake Plummer that has less pick-6's than cutler?

How is he "better than any Bronco QB not named Elway"? He has less playoff games than all of them. He has a lower winning percentage than all of them. I'd say those two points totally outweigh personal stats. He'd prolly agree, if he's half the man ya'll make him out to be.

rcsodak
12-31-2008, 06:14 PM
If only those picks in the Endzone were touchdowns instead.

Hell, I'd be happy with an IN-COM-PLETE!!!!!

topscribe
12-31-2008, 06:26 PM
Hell, I'd be happy with an IN-COM-PLETE!!!!!

That's a simple math problem I hope Jay learns this offseason:

Incomplete = 3 points
Interception = 0 points

-----

Nomad
12-31-2008, 07:08 PM
I agree with John Madden that the pro bowl selection should be done after the last game of the season. IMO, Cutler doesn't belong there as Brett Farve doesn't either.