Tned's Take: The Denver radio shock jocks just don’t get it

[Tned]

The Denver radio shock jocks just don’t get it

In the last couple weeks, I’ve been trying to find time to listen to more of the Denver radio shows, instead of just relying on BroncosForums, Twitter and the other forums for my Broncos fix. What I’ve heard has been rather amazing.

First, let me throw the disclaimer out that I haven’t listened to every host, obviously, and my favorite morning and evening shows (Vic and Gary in the AM, and Brandon Spano in the PM) actually seem to get it and this doesn’t apply to them.

So, what’s my gripe? It’s two fold. First, the shock jocks are entrenched in their belief that anyone calling for Orton to be benched is simply doing so because of some kind of Tebow love or Tebowmania. Second, they have gone so far down the rabbit hole of trashing Tebow and defending Orton using the company line that he is the quarterback that “gives the Broncos the best chance to win” that even with Orton playing poorly and the Broncos losing, they can’t help but defend Orton and attack Tebow and fans calling for a QB switch, or simply criticizing Orton’s play.

This misguided belief that anyone calling for Orton to be replaced is doing so only out of fanatical love for Tim Tebow is simply ludicrous. While there is no doubt that Tebow had a large and loyal following of Tebowmaniacs that became Broncos fans when Tim was drafted, these fans make up a very small part of the overall Broncos fan base and of course a very small part of the fans posting their opinions online or calling in to radio shows. Do they exist? Yes, but they are a small minority in terms of the outcry over the play of Kyle Orton.

The fan outcry to replace Kyle Orton is not a result of Tebowmania, but instead a serious case Ortonitis and fans are simply trying to have “the Orton” removed before it does any further damage. The shock jocks defending Orton say “come on, it’s only two games…” and then, “come on, it’s only three games, you have to give him time…” Since most of these guys have been covering the Broncos for quite some time, they seem to have blocked out the 28 starts Orton had in Denver prior to the 2011 season. The fact that after the 6-0 start that included an immaculate deflection and an amazing, last-second Marshall YAC performance for two of the wins, that Orton only managed 5 more wins in his next 22 starts prior to this year. They seem to have blocked out the failure time and time again to play well in the fourth quarter, whether with the lead, or when it’s time to do what quarterbacks do, and that’s lead their team from behind to win the game.

I wish I could block out bad things from my past the way these shock jocks blocked out Kyle Orton’s first two years in Denver.

Kyle Orton has lost the crowd, so to speak, because of his performance on the field, not because the fickle fans have a severe case of Tebowmania.

I will say that after the loss to the Titans, a number of the guys on radio have started to back off of their almost zealot-like defense of Orton, but even in doing so they almost always qualify it with some type of “Tebow can’t play in the NFL” type comment or point out that as bad as Orton has played, he’s still the best of three bad options. Or, one of my personal favorites is that “the future Quarterback of the Denver Broncos is not on the current roster.”

Really? How do you know?

That question in a tiny nutshell is the reason why so many fans are calling for Orton to be benched and Tebow to start. Yes, there are a few Gator/Tebow fans that are doing it out of love for Tebow, but that’s the tiniest minority of fans. The rest of them are doing so because they don’t know if the future quarterback of the Denver Broncos is on the current roster. It’s as simple as that.

They know what they have in Orton. Even the radio shock jocks are slowly, after 31 starts -- 19 of which were losses – ever so slowly, coming to grips with the fact that Orton is not the answer. So, how does it make sense to keep the quarterback that will almost certainly not be in Denver next year as the starter and have him go out and win 4 or 5 or maybe 7 games?

The answer is simple. It doesn’t make sense.

That’s what the fans are saying. They know Orton isn’t the answer. All indications are that Quinn isn’t the answer. What nobody knows is whether or not Tebow can play at this level, and whether or not he can be a winning, productive NFL quarterback. Now is the time to find out, not in the offseason when games aren’t played.

If Tebow is made the starter for the remainder of 2011 and fails, then the team knows what they have to do in the offseason. If on the other hand he succeeds, then the team can build around him and continue filling the other holes on the roster via free agency and the draft.

This is such an simple concept, it boggles the mind why the shock jocks on local Denver radio keep claiming that it’s all about some misguided and forlorn love for Tim Tebow.

While they are paid to talk, it might be time for a few of them to spend a little time actually listening to what the callers to their radio shows are saying, rather than just talking over the top of them and telling them they aren’t true fans or that they are “football dumb.”

[Northman]

Nice rant.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Could there be a method to their madness - i.e. if they agreed with every person who called in who stated that Tebow should be the starter, it would make for a pretty boring show. Just a thought.

[BroncoStud]

Could there be a method to their madness - i.e. if they agreed with every person who called in who stated that Tebow should be the starter, it would make for a pretty boring show. Just a thought.

His point is not that they should agree he needs to be replaced, but WHY he needs to be replaced.

I am right there with Tned. I could care less if it is Tebow or Santa Claus, just get Kyle Orton the hell off of this football team. He sucks.

[TXBRONC]

Nice rant.

Rant? It's a freaking Manifesto comrade. :salute:

[Tned]

Rant? It's a freaking Manifesto comrade. :salute:

Yea, I've been losing my verbose edge, nothing but short, puny post lately.

In the words of the great Zork Kingdom, maximum verbosity!!!

[Jsteve01]

Yea, I've been losing my verbose edge, nothing but short, puny post lately.

In the words of the great Zork Kingdom, maximum verbosity!!!

do you offer cliffs notes for that thing yet....not much of a reader over here...unless it's fiction that is.

[TXBRONC]

Could there be a method to their madness - i.e. if they agreed with every person who called in who stated that Tebow should be the starter, it would make for a pretty boring show. Just a thought.

This is fair point. But some of the arguments they make are weak.

[Tned]

do you offer cliffs notes for that thing yet....not much of a reader over here...unless it's fiction that is.

Fans good --- Radio Hosts bad...

[camdisco24]

Tned I agree 100%. Its like beating your head against a will and claiming its the best way to get rid of a headache. Everyone can see it won't work... It's frustrating to watch/listen to. The only person in the media with a brain recently is Skip Bayless (surprisingly..) He stands up for Tebow in just about every segment.

Orton is not our guy, and its so hard to watch him in a Broncos uni each week...

[BroncoTech]

I tend to agree Orton has played his way out of the starting position when he was pulled last year, he never should have started this year. The first coach that tells me Tebow isn't ready I will tell them they aren't ready to be NFL coaches. 2 f'ing years with a championship heisman guy and under their expert tutoring this guy still is not ready?

It's heartbreaking to fans when a guy like Hillis is behind Buckhalter when we as fans know if given the chance to start Hillis would shine. Maybe I'm just 'football dumb'.

[Nomad]

I believe it has more to do with Elway and the shock jocks/fans being 'yes fans' and there is no questioning his moves or decisions. People say Fox is the decision maker but he hasn't been proven as a good QB talent evaluator. I believe if anyone else would be in Elway's position.....there would be a little more of an uproar amongst the shock jocks.

I haven't heard any questions from them toward Elway in regards to Orton's performance and his record here and when enough is enough.

[Dreadnought]

Good piece.

I think what we're seeing is called "projection." The sports media is positively DESPERATE for TT to fail. Its quite remarkable to watch. Why? There's been a good bit of discussion on that one elsewhere. I didn't want to draft him, didn't really like the deal McDaniels engineered to pull it off, and I don't like College Football, and esp. the SEC. I'm not emotionally invested in this except as a Bronco fan. I want Tebow to succeed because that equals Bronco success and the ability to address other areas of need via the draft. I am also finding I like the kid's personality

I am finding that between the pro Tebow loonies and the anti Tebow pretend football sophisticates I find myself increasingly more in sympathy with the pro Tebow crowd. Tebow is getting a raw deal all around and is handling the pressure tolerably well. I am increasingly convinced that the conviction in some quarters that Tebow can't play is more a matter of mindless groupthink than anything else. In order to be one of the cool kids thats what you have to believe apparently.

Weazel has my favorite sig on this site, where he catalogs moronic predictions and pronouncements from Mel Kiper Jr. I say let the kid play and see what he's got - maybe there's a decent chance we can add some stupid comments from Merrill Hoge to Weazel's list.

[girler]

I'm at work, so I don't have time to read the whole manifesto, lol. I just think that the definition of crazy is doing the same thing you've always done and expecting a different outcome. :loco:

[Denver27og]

Oh my goodness.. Why is orton still the starter?? Well at least mcdik is gone.. Thank God!!!

[OldschoolFreak]

Tned, I agree wholeheartedly.

What baffles me is that even Sandy Clough (who despite an acerbic personality is smart, thorough, rational and usually spot-on with his analysis) falls into this trap.

It's almost like a form of obstinacy at this point; sticking to a position just for the sake of not admitting they might have been wrong.

Thanks for bringing this up. And up with reasoned arguments, a willingness to have evolving positions, and seeking the middle ground!

[rcsodak]

Nice Op-Ed, Tned.


Hey! New forum idea:

TNED'S OP-EDS
Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[jhildebrand]

The Denver radio shock jocks just don’t get it

In the last couple weeks, I’ve been trying to find time to listen to more of the Denver radio shows, instead of just relying on BroncosForums, Twitter and the other forums for my Broncos fix. What I’ve heard has been rather amazing.

First, let me throw the disclaimer out that I haven’t listened to every host, obviously, and my favorite morning and evening shows (Vic and Gary in the AM, and Brandon Spano in the PM) actually seem to get it and this doesn’t apply to them.

So, what’s my gripe? It’s two fold. First, the shock jocks are entrenched in their belief that anyone calling for Orton to be benched is simply doing so because of some kind of Tebow love or Tebowmania. Second, they have gone so far down the rabbit hole of trashing Tebow and defending Orton using the company line that he is the quarterback that “gives the Broncos the best chance to win” that even with Orton playing poorly and the Broncos losing, they can’t help but defend Orton and attack Tebow and fans calling for a QB switch, or simply criticizing Orton’s play.

This misguided belief that anyone calling for Orton to be replaced is doing so only out of fanatical love for Tim Tebow is simply ludicrous. While there is no doubt that Tebow had a large and loyal following of Tebowmaniacs that became Broncos fans when Tim was drafted, these fans make up a very small part of the overall Broncos fan base and of course a very small part of the fans posting their opinions online or calling in to radio shows. Do they exist? Yes, but they are a small minority in terms of the outcry over the play of Kyle Orton.

The fan outcry to replace Kyle Orton is not a result of Tebowmania, but instead a serious case Ortonitis and fans are simply trying to have “the Orton” removed before it does any further damage. The shock jocks defending Orton say “come on, it’s only two games…” and then, “come on, it’s only three games, you have to give him time…” Since most of these guys have been covering the Broncos for quite some time, they seem to have blocked out the 28 starts Orton had in Denver prior to the 2011 season. The fact that after the 6-0 start that included an immaculate deflection and an amazing, last-second Marshall YAC performance for two of the wins, that Orton only managed 5 more wins in his next 22 starts prior to this year. They seem to have blocked out the failure time and time again to play well in the fourth quarter, whether with the lead, or when it’s time to do what quarterbacks do, and that’s lead their team from behind to win the game.

I wish I could block out bad things from my past the way these shock jocks blocked out Kyle Orton’s first two years in Denver.

Kyle Orton has lost the crowd, so to speak, because of his performance on the field, not because the fickle fans have a severe case of Tebowmania.

I will say that after the loss to the Titans, a number of the guys on radio have started to back off of their almost zealot-like defense of Orton, but even in doing so they almost always qualify it with some type of “Tebow can’t play in the NFL” type comment or point out that as bad as Orton has played, he’s still the best of three bad options. Or, one of my personal favorites is that “the future Quarterback of the Denver Broncos is not on the current roster.”

Really? How do you know?

That question in a tiny nutshell is the reason why so many fans are calling for Orton to be benched and Tebow to start. Yes, there are a few Gator/Tebow fans that are doing it out of love for Tebow, but that’s the tiniest minority of fans. The rest of them are doing so because they don’t know if the future quarterback of the Denver Broncos is on the current roster. It’s as simple as that.

They know what they have in Orton. Even the radio shock jocks are slowly, after 31 starts -- 19 of which were losses – ever so slowly, coming to grips with the fact that Orton is not the answer. So, how does it make sense to keep the quarterback that will almost certainly not be in Denver next year as the starter and have him go out and win 4 or 5 or maybe 7 games?

The answer is simple. It doesn’t make sense.

That’s what the fans are saying. They know Orton isn’t the answer. All indications are that Quinn isn’t the answer. What nobody knows is whether or not Tebow can play at this level, and whether or not he can be a winning, productive NFL quarterback. Now is the time to find out, not in the offseason when games aren’t played.

If Tebow is made the starter for the remainder of 2011 and fails, then the team knows what they have to do in the offseason. If on the other hand he succeeds, then the team can build around him and continue filling the other holes on the roster via free agency and the draft.

This is such an simple concept, it boggles the mind why the shock jocks on local Denver radio keep claiming that it’s all about some misguided and forlorn love for Tim Tebow.

While they are paid to talk, it might be time for a few of them to spend a little time actually listening to what the callers to their radio shows are saying, rather than just talking over the top of them and telling them they aren’t true fans or that they are “football dumb.”

You complete me, Tned!

I have been trying to state and post as much on this lately.

This is why I quit listening to 102.3 the ticket altogether!!!! Save for Vic and Gary they all just push the envelope there.

On the Fan, I like Sandy but he just happens to be dead wrong. I have had an email exchange with him for a while now.

The more this goes on, the longer I feel like I did with the Hillis situation! I remember telling my brother, a college football player and now coach, about Hillis on our way to the MIA game. He thought I was crazy until Hillis almost single handedly won it receiving the ball.

[jhildebrand]

By the way, I get REAL TIRED of the "how come Tebow couldn't win the job!"

At this point it should be clear there never really was a competition!!!!

[Juriga72]

I can still get Chicago Sports talk here, and its funny.... no almost sad how THEY view "The Trade" still...

(Their view)
Orton was thrown in because he sucked. WHY did he suck? Because he cannot win games, he just doesnt LOSE them... Hmmmm seems spot on.

Cutler on the other hand CAN win games and lose them. Last year with the worst ever O-line.. he STILL had 4 4th quarter comeback wins.

I hated Orton from the get go..... and sadly he has proven to justify this hate.

[jhildebrand]

If Elway messes this up, the fans he fought so hard to get back from the tornado that was McDaniels will be gone and it will be much harder, if not impossible, to get them back again!

[MasterShake]

Good piece.

I think what we're seeing is called "projection." The sports media is positively DESPERATE for TT to fail. Its quite remarkable to watch. Why? There's been a good bit of discussion on that one elsewhere. I didn't want to draft him, didn't really like the deal McDaniels engineered to pull it off, and I don't like College Football, and esp. the SEC. I'm not emotionally invested in this except as a Bronco fan. I want Tebow to succeed because that equals Bronco success and the ability to address other areas of need via the draft. I am also finding I like the kid's personality

I am finding that between the pro Tebow loonies and the anti Tebow pretend football sophisticates I find myself increasingly more in sympathy with the pro Tebow crowd. Tebow is getting a raw deal all around and is handling the pressure tolerably well. I am increasingly convinced that the conviction in some quarters that Tebow can't play is more a matter of mindless groupthink than anything else. In oredr to be one of the cool kids thats what you have to believe apparently.

Weazel has my favorite sig on this site, where he catalogs moronic predictions and pronouncements from Mel Kiper Jr. I say let the kid play and see what he's got - maybe there's a decent chance we can add some stupid comments from Merrill Hoge to Weazel's list.

I'm with you in many respects. I am not college football fan, and was more curious about Tebow than anything when we drafted him. The way he presents himself and his passion for the game is a total 180 from "Aww Shucks" Orton. I'd rather see us fail spectaculary with Tebow than stick to our guns with Orton. Not to say we would fail, but I want to know the guy behind center actually wants to play and will raise the level of his teammates.

Another thing that gets lost in all of this is that there is a huge chance Orton is not going to be here next year. We aren't winning, so bench our "best chance" of winning and put in our "best chance" of making me want to keep a vested interest in the rest of the season as a Bronco fan.

[BroncoStud]

I can still get Chicago Sports talk here, and its funny.... no almost sad how THEY view "The Trade" still...

(Their view)
Orton was thrown in because he sucked. WHY did he suck? Because he cannot win games, he just doesnt LOSE them... Hmmmm seems spot on.

Cutler on the other hand CAN win games and lose them. Last year with the worst ever O-line.. he STILL had 4 4th quarter comeback wins.

I hated Orton from the get go..... and sadly he has proven to justify this hate.

Yep. Orton had a 59 QBR when he was "winning" games as a rookie in Chicago. Orton sucks, he holds this offense back. I never wanted his sorry ass on this roster in the first place.

[SOCALORADO.]

If Elway messes this up, the fans he fought so hard to get back from the tornado that was McDaniels will be gone and it will be much harder, if not impossible, to get them back again!

Why would it be Elways fault?
He came in after McDaniels. Hes cleaning up the mess. His way.
If someone doesnt like how hes doing it, i am just guessing, but i dont think
Elway really cares. From his perspective this team sucks, period.
And this is a non- issue to him. He has a plan, and hes following through with his plan. Again, TT is not an Elway pick. He has no attatchment to him in any way.

[jhildebrand]

Why would it be Elways fault?
He came in after McDaniels. Hes cleaning up the mess. His way.
If someone doesnt like how hes doing it, i am just guessing, but i dont think
Elway really cares. From his perspective this team sucks, period.
And this is a non- issue to him. He has a plan, and hes following through with his plan. Again, TT is not an Elway pick. He has no attatchment to him in any way.

This isn't Elway's fault but it is HIS problem.

It is his responsibility to clean up. You say he is cleaning it up. I say he has stuck his head in the sand thus far.

Before you go on insisting that TT is not Elway's pick and he has no attachment to him and therefore wont have any problems should he move him, I would remind you that Cutler wasn't McDaniels' pick. He had no attachment to him. How did that work out again? :confused:

[chazoe60]

Tned, can I stick my tongue in your ear or something because a "High 5!" does not seem powerful enough for the absolute awesomeness of this thread.

I have been trying to convince people for over a year now that my disdain for Kyle Orton the QB has nothing to do with Tim Tebow. Why can we just not be sick of Kyle Orton's play?

Bravo brother. Is this your Jerry McGuire-esque mission statement?

[Tned]

Tned, can I stick my tongue in your ear or something because a "High 5!" does not seem powerful enough for the absolute awesomeness of this thread.

I have been trying to convince people for over a year now that my disdain for Kyle Orton the QB has nothing to do with Tim Tebow. Why can we just not be sick of Kyle Orton's play?

Bravo brother. Is this your Jerry McGuire-esque mission statement?

Let's just stick with the Hi-Five, please... ;)

[getlynched47]

Quick question, did anybody post Woody Paige's new article? I can't seem to find it posted in a new thread or in an existing thread.

[girler]

Tned, can I stick my tongue in your ear or something because a "High 5!" does not seem powerful enough for the absolute awesomeness of this thread.

I have been trying to convince people for over a year now that my disdain for Kyle Orton the QB has nothing to do with Tim Tebow. Why can we just not be sick of Kyle Orton's play?

Bravo brother. Is this your Jerry McGuire-esque mission statement?

Sure! Just do this :kiss:


:salute:

[Shazam!]

I agree w/Tned 100%.

TT needs to play to see what he can do. If he does marginally well, Denver has a QB for 2012. If not, they need to go heavy after Matt Barkley (I doubt Denver gets the #1 for Luck or will have the goods to trade for it, so Barkley would do nicely).

I find it hard to believe he cant put up numbers better than Orton, while making some learning curve mistakes.

I swear if Orton is on this team next year idk what i'll do.

[chazoe60]

Sandy Clough just said, and I paraphrase "Tebow is a more effective runner from the QB position than when you bring him in at spot duty as a runner in special packages". My wife faked a gasp and said "you mean it's more effective when they don't know it's coming? I never would have guessed."

I was cracking up.

[jhildebrand]

Sandy Clough just said, and I paraphrase "Tebow is a more effective runner from the QB position than when you bring him in at spot duty as a runner in special packages". My wife faked a gasp and said "you mean it's more effective when they don't know it's coming? I never would have guessed."

I was cracking up.

Your wife=AWESOME!

:salute:


Even the most casual fan (not saying your wife is) gets it at this point because it is that OBVIOUS!

[chazoe60]

Your wife=AWESOME!

:salute:


Even the most casual fan (not saying your wife is) gets it at this point because it is that OBVIOUS!

Yes she is. Don't tell her I said that though, the last thing I need is for her to figure out she's too good for me.



Sandy Clough is maybe the biggest apologist going. He's hard to listen to. Nothing is Orton's fault.

[Tned]

A note from Cecil Lammey (@cecillammey) about the Tebow situation and this rant of mine.


RT @cecillammey: @BroncosForums nice read! I was hoping Tned would mention my take on DEN QB situation, feel it's the most thought out of anyone in DEN media

RT @cecillammey: @BroncosForums I need to be on the air more, was saying in TC to start Tebow to see what u have, build around if he's good, move on if not

[Northman]

A note from Cecil Lammey (@cecillammey) about the Tebow situation and this rant of mine.


RT @cecillammey: @BroncosForums nice read! I was hoping Tned would mention my take on DEN QB situation, feel it's the most thought out of anyone in DEN media

RT @cecillammey: @BroncosForums I need to be on the air more, was saying in TC to start Tebow to see what u have, build around if he's good, move on if not



I got him beat, i was saying this shit last year......

[WARHORSE]

http://www.denverssportsstation.com/page.php?page_id=45#vmix_media_id=53719311


Click on the Dave Razzano & CecilLammey pod.

Razzano says it well.

Tebow has to play....LIVE bullets. Orton, is Ortonary.



Nice post Tned. Someone needs to get the word out.............:beer:

[WARHORSE]

I got him beat, i was saying this shit last year......


You and a thousand more.

We went through this last year, watching Denver lose until the last 3 games of the year.


Tebow NEEDS GAMEDAY REPS.


NOTHING will bring him up to speed quicker than that.


If Orton were winning, we could afford to let Tim sit.

Hes not.

Put Tebow on the field.

[WARHORSE]

A note from Cecil Lammey (@cecillammey) about the Tebow situation and this rant of mine.


RT @cecillammey: @BroncosForums nice read! I was hoping Tned would mention my take on DEN QB situation, feel it's the most thought out of anyone in DEN media

RT @cecillammey: @BroncosForums I need to be on the air more, was saying in TC to start Tebow to see what u have, build around if he's good, move on if not





Perhaps he does need to be on the air more. I dont remember him saying this. I remember one of his guests saying it.............perhaps Cecil should point it out.:coffee:

[MasterShake]

A note from Cecil Lammey (@cecillammey) about the Tebow situation and this rant of mine.


RT @cecillammey: @BroncosForums nice read! I was hoping Tned would mention my take on DEN QB situation, feel it's the most thought out of anyone in DEN media

RT @cecillammey: @BroncosForums I need to be on the air more, was saying in TC to start Tebow to see what u have, build around if he's good, move on if not



Thats great! Cecil and Kreckman are two of my favorites on that channel. Cecil definitely needs more airtime.

[Tned]

Thats great! Cecil and Kreckman are two of my favorites on that channel. Cecil definitely needs more airtime.

Loved his reports during camp. The most detailed of any reporters covering camp from what I saw.

[lgenf]

So us tebowmaniacs don't get any credit for saying it either huh?

I remember being killed on this forum because I said (as did other T2 supporters) long before the last three games last year, that T2 has the "IT" thing and the broncos could benefit from "IT" then killed by the general forum for not being able to define "IT"

After those last three games everyone knew what "IT" was and knew Orton didn't have it

[BroncoStud]

So us tebowmaniacs don't get any credit for saying it either huh?

I remember being killed on this forum because I said (as did other T2 supporters) long before the last three games last year, that T2 has the "IT" thing and the broncos could benefit from "IT" then killed by the general forum for not being able to define "IT"

After those last three games everyone knew what "IT" was and knew Orton didn't have it

No, the Tebowmaniacs don't get credit. It's those of us that couldn't stand Orton from day 1 the trade was announced that deserve everyone's love.

[PAINTERDAVE]

Since Kyle "King of Practice" Orton has failed again like last year...

The new track taken by the Radio Jocks who dislike Tim is this ..

To start any discussion they pull out....
"Since it it is a foregone conclusion that the QB of the future
is NOT presently on the Broncos roster.."


Today they were trying to focus the discussion on

"Who will be on this team in the 2013/14 season..."


It is KILLING them that Tebow may get a shot
in the second half of 2011...
and in 2012...
_________________

Yesterday... Sean Salsbury came on and talked of all the great QB's who
rocked and were unconventional and succesful anyway.
Then.. SS told Les Shapiro..

"Tebow is a winner. he should play.. he will do well." I LOL'd

Les was polite.. then spent the afternoon discounting Tebow.

I trust SS.. a QB
much more than Les Shapiro... an idiot.

___________________________

CJ has been backing the change to Tebow for a few weeks..
all the others make fun of him for it..

The guys who don't want Tim to get a shot...
they are all so "superior" and arrogant about it.

What do they have to fear?
If Tim is as bad as they all tell us he is..
then we can move on from the circus and draft a QB next year.

For some reason they are adamantly opposed to seeing Tim even get a shot.

Go figure.

[Northman]

So us tebowmaniacs don't get any credit for saying it either huh?

I remember being killed on this forum because I said (as did other T2 supporters) long before the last three games last year, that T2 has the "IT" thing and the broncos could benefit from "IT" then killed by the general forum for not being able to define "IT"

After those last three games everyone knew what "IT" was and knew Orton didn't have it

Well, part of the problem is saying that Tebow has "IT" to begin with. Fact is, we dont know if he does or doesnt have the "IT" factor. Ive just been calling for him to play because i know Orton has reached his ceiling as a QB.

[PAINTERDAVE]

So us tebowmaniacs don't get any credit for saying it either huh?

I remember being killed on this forum because I said (as did other T2 supporters) long before the last three games last year, that T2 has the "IT" thing and the broncos could benefit from "IT" then killed by the general forum for not being able to define "IT"

After those last three games everyone knew what "IT" was and knew Orton didn't have it

You.. Chaz... myself.. others ..
were calling for Tebow to come in after the bye.... last year.

It feels like Deja Vu all over again.

Just imagine how much further down the road
this team would be
if we had actually traded Orton away?

The lockout was teh worst thing that could have happened to this team.

Had we traded Orton back in february....
Tim was in the OTA's..

oh well.. Just water under teh bridge now...

yet too bad that we are repeating the last season over again....

[PAINTERDAVE]

Well, part of the problem is saying that Tebow has "IT" to begin with. Fact is, we dont know if he does or doesnt have the "IT" factor. Ive just been calling for him to play because i know Orton has reached his ceiling as a QB.

And it is important to find out NOW.. instead of next year...

so the team can assess for the draft.

also so Tim can get experience if he is gonna be the guy.

He may fail.. but he may not.

[lgenf]

New coach, new Elway

Same QB = same results

Same screams from fans, GET T2 IN AFTER THE BYE WEEK

[lgenf]

And it is important to find out NOW.. instead of next year...

so the team can assess for the draft.

also so Tim can get experience if he is gonna be the guy.

He may fail.. but he may not.

Orton gets 2+ years of failing

I wonder how long T2 gets if he struggles?

[PAINTERDAVE]

Orton gets 2+ years of failing

I wonder how long T2 gets if he struggles?

last half of 2011... and then 2012 I think...
that would be about it....

If he struggles.

[Joel]

His point is not that they should agree he needs to be replaced, but WHY he needs to be replaced.

I am right there with Tned. I could care less if it is Tebow or Santa Claus, just get Kyle Orton the hell off of this football team. He sucks.
If that is the point, remaining within the "Tebow vs. Orton" paradigm is a poor way to make it. I agree that Orton should not be starting, but when people default to Tebow as the next starter it unavoidably frames the narrative in terms of the divisive and distracting "is Tebow the future, the present or neither?" debate. I don't want Orton starting, but Tebow wouldn't be my first choice to replace him; it's hard to get fired up about either prospect, and Quinn is a lot more NFL ready.

I can and do get behind the idea of pulling Orton, giving Quinn OR Tebow the start and a chance to keep the job, then replacing him with the other one if, and only if, he isn't getting it done after a month or so either. Then we'll have seen everyone and, if none of them are any good (as many fear,) know we MUST find a QB who is, in a draft widely believed to be full of them, with the aid of a high draft pick. However, as long as "bench Orton" automatically leads to "start Tebow" the FO, coaches, players, media and the guy at the water cooler will reflexively (and by all accounts accurately) respond, "he's not ready yet, and might never be."

[Tned]

If that is the point, remaining within the "Tebow vs. Orton" paradigm is a poor way to make it. I agree that Orton should not be starting, but when people default to Tebow as the next starter it unavoidably frames the narrative in terms of the divisive and distracting "is Tebow the future, the present or neither?" debate. I don't want Orton starting, but Tebow wouldn't be my first choice to replace him; it's hard to get fired up about either prospect, and Quinn is a lot more NFL ready.

I can and do get behind the idea of pulling Orton, giving Quinn OR Tebow the start and a chance to keep the job, then replacing him with the other one if, and only if, he isn't getting it done after a month or so either. Then we'll have seen everyone and, if none of them are any good (as many fear,) know we MUST find a QB who is, in a draft widely believed to be full of them, with the aid of a high draft pick. However, as long as "bench Orton" automatically leads to "start Tebow" the FO, coaches, players, media and the guy at the water cooler will reflexively (and by all accounts accurately) respond, "he's not ready yet, and might never be."

If the team had a legit shot to make the playoffs this year (which I believed at one point), then I would agree with your thoughts on Quinn. As it is, this is his last year, and it seems very unlikely that he would go anything deserving of resigning him to be the starter. The Broncos have LOTS of film on Quinn and his battle to beat Derek Anderson out for a job in Cleveland. The same cannot be said of Tebow. Tebow is the unknown, and likely the only option on the roster as a long-term QB option.

I would likely have bought into the Quinn argument as an alternative to starting week one and being given a shot to lead the Broncos to a division title (that was the only realistic playoff route), but if in the next week or two, that possibility is realistically gone, then I see no upside to starting Quinn, where starting Tebow has the upside of knowing what the Broncos have in Tebow so that we don't have another offseason of not knowing if Tebow can be that guy.

[BroncoJoe]

Amen, brother.

[Canmore]

If the team had a legit shot to make the playoffs this year (which I believed at one point), then I would agree with your thoughts on Quinn. As it is, this is his last year, and it seems very unlikely that he would go anything deserving of resigning him to be the starter. The Broncos have LOTS of film on Quinn and his battle to beat Derek Anderson out for a job in Cleveland. The same cannot be said of Tebow. Tebow is the unknown, and likely the only option on the roster as a long-term QB option.

I would likely have bought into the Quinn argument as an alternative to starting week one and being given a shot to lead the Broncos to a division title (that was the only realistic playoff route), but if in the next week or two, that possibility is realistically gone, then I see no upside to starting Quinn, where starting Tebow has the upside of knowing what the Broncos have in Tebow so that we don't have another offseason of not knowing if Tebow can be that guy.

I'm for starting anyone not named Kyle. If it's Quinn so be it. I'd rather see Tebow but we have had enough of Orton.

If Quinn were to start and produce there is no reason not to try to re-sign him. It is not out of the question. To me it makes more sense to start Tim and see if he can produce with the 2012 draft looming but in the short term I just want to see a change. Something that may light a spark under this team. Kyle sure as heck isn't doing that.

[BroncoJoe]

“Thank God the people (fans) don’t make the decisions. That’s really all I got to say about it.” He added “my last goal playing quarterback is to win over the fans, that is my last goal.” - Kyle Orton

[Canmore]

- Kyle Orton

Kyle doesn't have to worry about winning over the fans, that is not going to happen with his play. The ones that were fence sitters have hopped off also. :tsk:

[Northman]

If the team had a legit shot to make the playoffs this year (which I believed at one point), then I would agree with your thoughts on Quinn. As it is, this is his last year, and it seems very unlikely that he would go anything deserving of resigning him to be the starter. The Broncos have LOTS of film on Quinn and his battle to beat Derek Anderson out for a job in Cleveland. The same cannot be said of Tebow. Tebow is the unknown, and likely the only option on the roster as a long-term QB option.

I would likely have bought into the Quinn argument as an alternative to starting week one and being given a shot to lead the Broncos to a division title (that was the only realistic playoff route), but if in the next week or two, that possibility is realistically gone, then I see no upside to starting Quinn, where starting Tebow has the upside of knowing what the Broncos have in Tebow so that we don't have another offseason of not knowing if Tebow can be that guy.

I agree 100%.

I view Quinn much like i do Orton in terms of neither team they were a part of before thought much of them as franchise QB's and traded them away. While i dont really care if Quinn played this year i just dont see him doing anything that he hasnt already done in this league as it is.

[sneakers]

Their job isn't to say things that are rational and people will agree with. Their job is to say controversial things that will get people to pay attention and call into the radio station, etc.

An excellent example of this on the national level is Colin Cowherd. He is annoying and says all kinds of stupid things but that is why he has a job.

[BORDERLINE]

Great Post TNED, you hit the nail on the head with this one.

Maybe you should get on a radio show...

[Tned]

Great Post TNED, you hit the nail on the head with this one.

Maybe you should get on a radio show...

Nahh, I wouldn't have the patience to deal with fanatical, football-dumb fans... ;)

[Joel]

If the team had a legit shot to make the playoffs this year (which I believed at one point), then I would agree with your thoughts on Quinn. As it is, this is his last year, and it seems very unlikely that he would go anything deserving of resigning him to be the starter. The Broncos have LOTS of film on Quinn and his battle to beat Derek Anderson out for a job in Cleveland. The same cannot be said of Tebow. Tebow is the unknown, and likely the only option on the roster as a long-term QB option.

I would likely have bought into the Quinn argument as an alternative to starting week one and being given a shot to lead the Broncos to a division title (that was the only realistic playoff route), but if in the next week or two, that possibility is realistically gone, then I see no upside to starting Quinn, where starting Tebow has the upside of knowing what the Broncos have in Tebow so that we don't have another offseason of not knowing if Tebow can be that guy.
I can see that; a big part of why I would rather see Quinn is that I think putting Tebow in now would give us a few games of exciting unpredictable play until opposing teams got his number, then be a disaster. Another part is that I don't think a little over half a seasons worth of starts for awful Browns teams is enough to accurately evaluate Quinn. Name two Browns QBs from the last decade (or two) you'd want starting for Denver, then ask yourself how much of that is Quinns fault.

I also agree with Canmore that if we put Quinn out there and he wins half a dozen games we'll probably re-sign him next year and spend our first round pick on elite talent at a position where we need it just as badly as QB (my biggest concern is that whoever we start might end up a star after we cut him because our shoddy line play made him LOOK like a bum.)

But the main thing is that Quinn must be on the table so "replace Orton" isn't reduced to Tebonmaniacs vs. Tebow haters. That instantly makes each of the MANY valid objections to Tebow an excuse for Orton. Presenting only one alternative requires, not just proving Orton inadequate, but proving that sole alternative better, with no evidence except practice and training camp (where Orton proved himself the best by default.)

If we just want to pull Orton, we should beat that drum exclusively, knowing we'll have to accept whatever alternative, if any, takes the field as a result. If it's Tebow, Quinn or Deckers old teammate Weber we'll have found our QB for the next decade if he plays well, and go to the next name on the list if he doesn't. One way or another we'll know by the end of the year whether we should draft one of the many talented QBs in next years draft (which I wouldn't even consider if not for the fact one of them will probably be the best available player at our pick) or someone else.

[BroncoStud]

If that is the point, remaining within the "Tebow vs. Orton" paradigm is a poor way to make it. I agree that Orton should not be starting, but when people default to Tebow as the next starter it unavoidably frames the narrative in terms of the divisive and distracting "is Tebow the future, the present or neither?" debate. I don't want Orton starting, but Tebow wouldn't be my first choice to replace him; it's hard to get fired up about either prospect, and Quinn is a lot more NFL ready.

I can and do get behind the idea of pulling Orton, giving Quinn OR Tebow the start and a chance to keep the job, then replacing him with the other one if, and only if, he isn't getting it done after a month or so either. Then we'll have seen everyone and, if none of them are any good (as many fear,) know we MUST find a QB who is, in a draft widely believed to be full of them, with the aid of a high draft pick. However, as long as "bench Orton" automatically leads to "start Tebow" the FO, coaches, players, media and the guy at the water cooler will reflexively (and by all accounts accurately) respond, "he's not ready yet, and might never be."

Same old Quinn. He was pissing all over himself against a bunch of scrubs in week 4 of Preseason. He's still a scared checkdown QB, and we have one of those in the lineup already.

Plus Quinn is a free agent and he won't be here next year. No point in starting him. The Broncos, like it or not, have an investment in Tebow, it's time to put up or shut up for Tim.

[Joel]

Same old Quinn. He was pissing all over himself against a bunch of scrubs in week 4 of Preseason. He's still a scared checkdown QB, and we have one of those in the lineup already.

Plus Quinn is a free agent and he won't be here next year. No point in starting him. The Broncos, like it or not, have an investment in Tebow, it's time to put up or shut up for Tim.
If I'd been getting knocked around Cleveland for three years (ending on IR) I might be a scared checkdown QB, too. My main concern with Quinn is that I'm unsure our line would take better care of him. Looking at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brady_Quinn#Professional_career
I'm not sure how Quinn can be called the "same old" anything; I do have to wonder how much he has to "vastly improve" before he's good enough to replace Orton.

Regardless, when "bench Orton" automatically leads to "start Tebow" it give the impression the former is just a means to the latter; when "try Quinn" is ALSO rebutted with "start Tebow" it starts to seem like a pattern.

[TXBRONC]

By the way, I get REAL TIRED of the "how come Tebow couldn't win the job!"

At this point it should be clear there never really was a competition!!!!

You and me we agree most things but we differ here. Elway and Fox said consistently before and after the draft? "If the season started today Kyle would be our starting quarterback." What that means is that it was Orton's job to lose but Tebow was going to have to out perform him in camp and that he didn't do. According to the things I remember reading Tebow improved as camp went along but not enough to warrant replacing Orton. I can't blame Fox for going with going with guy who looked better in camp. I don't think for one minute that just because Orton won the job coming out of camp that he play like crap for 16 games and not worry about being replaced.


If Elway messes this up, the fans he fought so hard to get back from the tornado that was McDaniels will be gone and it will be much harder, if not impossible, to get them back again!

I agree it's Elway's mess to clean up but that doesn't mean it will all happen in one fell swoop.

[Northman]

Same old Quinn. He was pissing all over himself against a bunch of scrubs in week 4 of Preseason. He's still a scared checkdown QB, and we have one of those in the lineup already.

Plus Quinn is a free agent and he won't be here next year. No point in starting him. The Broncos, like it or not, have an investment in Tebow, it's time to put up or shut up for Tim.

Indeed. Quinn isnt going to be any better than Tebow and hasnt even proved it in preseason. Nothing will change in live action but with Tebow its still an unknown compared to Quinn.

[chazoe60]

Kreckman is at it this morning Tned. Insisting that the only reason people want Orton gone is because of Tebow. Why is it so hard to understand that a fanbase who has watched a QB lead their team to a 12-19 record (and that's with a 6-0 start) would want to see someone else try their hand?

What is it about Orton that drives few (very few really) fans and giant sects of the media stick up for him to the bitter end? He suck, how is that not apparent to everyone when it is so obvious to so many others.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

It's all about ratings. I really liked Alfred as a player. He seems to have a really likable personality....as long as he's not doing a radio show. He just rants and comes across as a blow-hard.

[jhildebrand]

You and me we agree most things but we differ here. Elway and Fox said consistently before and after the draft? "If the season started today Kyle would be our starting quarterback." What that means is that it was Orton's job to lose but Tebow was going to have to out perform him in camp and that he didn't do. According to the things I remember reading Tebow improved as camp went along but not enough to warrant replacing Orton. I can't blame Fox for going with going with guy who looked better in camp. I don't think for one minute that just because Orton won the job coming out of camp that he play like crap for 16 games and not worry about being replaced.

That's fine. I don't disagree much with this. But it is important to keep what happened in chronological order. We also have to remember the failed Orton trade in all of this.

Really, the Broncos would have been better off after the botched trade declaring Orton the starter until proven otherwise. But they didn't. They promised an all out open competition at QB.

That is my complaint. That never happened. Nobody outside of Orton took one single rep with the #1s. So the people who insist Tebow can't beat out Orton therefore Tebow sucks more than Orton have a SERIOUS flaw in their logic.




I agree it's Elway's mess to clean up but that doesn't mean it will all happen in one fell swoop.

Agreed. I understand he is in a precarious position and needs to handle this with precision and delicacy. However, as of now it would appear their M.O. is to let this fester despite the fanbase. At some point he will have to take some action to placate the fanbase (not saying that means starting TT) otherwise he risks losing all the ground he gained in the off season. At some point the FO would be smart to address this thing in a manner different than "KO gives us the best chance to win."

[TXBRONC]

That's fine. I don't disagree much with this. But it is important to keep what happened in chronological order. We also have to remember the failed Orton trade in all of this.

Really, the Broncos would have been better off after the botched trade declaring Orton the starter until proven otherwise. But they didn't. They promised an all out open competition at QB.

That is my complaint. That never happened. Nobody outside of Orton took one single rep with the #1s. So the people who insist Tebow can't beat out Orton therefore Tebow sucks more than Orton have a SERIOUS flaw in their logic.




Agreed. I understand he is in a precarious position and needs to handle this with precision and delicacy. However, as of now it would appear their M.O. is to let this fester despite the fanbase. At some point he will have to take some action to placate the fanbase (not saying that means starting TT) otherwise he risks losing all the ground he gained in the off season. At some point the FO would be smart to address this thing in a manner different than "KO gives us the best chance to win."

They probably should have said "Orton is the starter until he proves other wise" then there would have been no ambiguity. I think that's what they meant when they said "if the season started today Kyle Orton would be our starter".

I agree "Kyle gives us the best chance to win" if Denver can't win games and only way to truly address is put someone else under center.

[Tned]

Kreckman is at it this morning Tned. Insisting that the only reason people want Orton gone is because of Tebow. Why is it so hard to understand that a fanbase who has watched a QB lead their team to a 12-19 record (and that's with a 6-0 start) would want to see someone else try their hand?

What is it about Orton that drives few (very few really) fans and giant sects of the media stick up for him to the bitter end? He suck, how is that not apparent to everyone when it is so obvious to so many others.

At work, can't listen to radio today. It amazes me that so many of these guys can't grasp the concept that the fans don't want to go into another offseason with the "can Tebow play QB in the NFL" question. Orton clearly isn't the long term answer at QB, so the reason most people call for Tebow is to see if he is, and if he's not, find out so that Denver can draft a QB in 2012.

[Tned]

Just had a Twitter exchange with Kreckman. I will say I disagree with is view, but he's been open to exchange the few times I have sent him a message. Kudos for that.

He clearly believes it's just a "Tebow" thing and says that if it was Clausen behined Orton, that the cries would not be nearly as loud. I reminded him of the cries for Chris Simms by many, when we had only seen a fraction of the bad games as we've now seen from Orton. It's much more of an anti-Orton sentiment and finding out if we need to draft a new QB in '12.

[Northman]

Lol, yea Kreckman is totally incorrect here. If Orton was winning there wouldnt be cries for anyone.

[TXBRONC]

Just had a Twitter exchange with Kreckman. I will say I disagree with is view, but he's been open to exchange the few times I have sent him a message. Kudos for that.

He clearly believes it's just a "Tebow" thing and says that if it was Clausen behined Orton, that the cries would not be nearly as loud. I reminded him of the cries for Chris Simms by many, when we had only seen a fraction of the bad games as we've now seen from Orton. It's much more of an anti-Orton sentiment and finding out if we need to draft a new QB in '12.

I just got done listening to the Shannon Sharpe interview from yesterday on the Ticket and talked about the quarterback situation in Denver. Without having talked with Elway he believes deep in soul (his words or something like that) that if Elway and Fox really and truly believed they had their franchise quarterback on the team he would starting right now.

[Ravage!!!]

I just got done listening to the Shannon Sharpe interview from yesterday on the Ticket and talked about the quarterback situation in Denver. Without having talked with Elway he believes deep in soul (his words or something like that) that if Elway and Fox really and truly believed they had their franchise quarterback on the team he would starting right now.

I think that just makes sense. If they thought he was the guy, he would be on the field learning like the rest of the young QBs in the NFL are. I just don't think the fans want to hear that.

The interesting part is.. that Shannon very much COULD have talked to Elway, but John didn't want to be quoted. Hence the disclaimer.

[Nomad]

Lol, yea Kreckman is totally incorrect here. If Orton was winning there wouldnt be cries for anyone.

Exactly!

[EastCoastBronco]

I don't think I've ever been more frustrated or discouraged as a Bronco fan as I am this year.
I think it's mainly because I got a small taste last year of the energy and intensity that #15 brings to the team. Energy that I can pretty much verify Orton or Quinny cannot bring.
I'm no Tebow fanatic but I'm smart enough to see the difference in the entire team when he's out there. It's like a shot of adrenaline. Guys block harder, run harder, tackle harder when they are inspired. It's simple math.
I sorely miss scoring consistently when we're in the red zone.
I definitely miss winning games on a regular basis.
But mostly I miss the excitement I used to experience while watching Broncos games.
For no other reason than that I wish Fox and Elway would tuck the chicken feathers into their pants on this thing and give the goddam kid a shot.

[jhildebrand]

What does it say when a future HOF coach pulled a starter who was 40-18 for the franchise for a highly touted 1st round pick?

He pulled that QB with a 7-4 record NOT 4-7.

I wonder what Shanahan would do had he inherited the current situation like Elway has.

I think it is safe to say that he would pull Orton. After all, the guy traded for McNabb a 2nd and a 3rd or 4th which isn't a shabby investment. He had no problem pulling McNabb for Rex last year and took a ton of heat for it in the media! I haven't heard one media member have the decency to come back and say Shanny was right!

Shanahan pulled him with a 5-8 record not 6-19! Washington wasn't going anywhere last year. By all accounts they are rebuilding as much as we are yet he still had no issues looking into Rex and Beck to see what he has.

So for all those here reminiscing for the Shanahan days yet happen to still support Orton, maybe this is some food for thought :noidea:

[G_Money]

My problem is the Broncos have needed a leader at starting QB, and the ONLY leader they have at that position is sitting on the bench.

The players are different when Tim is on the field. I don't know why. There's more electricity, they bounce around more...

They're not robo-zombies struggling to make forward progress with the football.

I wish Tebow was more ready to take the reins. He doesn't read defenses quickly yet, he doesn't see the field the way I want him to see it.

That doesn't preclude him from having success. It's not like our playbook has more than 8 or 9 options anyway right now. Dan Reeves "we never repeat a play" book is not in use with the 2011 Broncos. Tim can run this one.

I want him to, SOON. Orton will not be back next year, and neither will Quinn. The only QB who needs a long evaluation is Tebow. I don't want to judge a top-10 pick next year on how Tebow looks in practice.

Put his ass in as many games as possible between now and 2012 so that we can make a proper evaluation of his future.

And not waste a first-round pick - again.

~G

[G_Money]

And for all the people scoffing about Tebow not being the future, I guess I just remember being one of the few people at the time who thought Drew Brees was gonna be a monster and that the Chargers were idiots for trying to replace him.

Rivers has become a better QB than I thought he would (Also with a weird throwing motion, imagine...) but a slow start does not a poor career make.

Tebow has things to overcome, but he also has positives to his game that we could really use right now. Play him and find out whether the benefits overcome the drawbacks.

Ah well. Two more games til he gets his shot.

~G

[Mike]

I think that just makes sense. If they thought he was the guy, he would be on the field learning like the rest of the young QBs in the NFL are. I just don't think the fans want to hear that.

The interesting part is.. that Shannon very much COULD have talked to Elway, but John didn't want to be quoted. Hence the disclaimer.

I agree that is what the FO might be thinking in regards to him.

And if that is what they think, throw him out there and shut the fans up. I didn't want Tebow to be a Bronco and was pissed at what they did to get him. I don't know if he is the answer at QB.

But I know the bum isn't. So throw Tebow out there. Forget Quinn, he isn't in the Broncos future anyways. Throw Tebow out there and we will see. If he flops, the FO can feel justified and perhaps earn a little bit of leeway from the doubters amongst us who think they are damn near clueless right now.

Part of me wonders if Tebow ain't in their plans and they are worried that Tebow will succeed if they play him, and the fallout from the fans if the Broncos decide to go in a different direction next season.

[Northman]

And for all the people scoffing about Tebow not being the future, I guess I just remember being one of the few people at the time who thought Drew Brees was gonna be a monster and that the Chargers were idiots for trying to replace him.

Rivers has become a better QB than I thought he would (Also with a weird throwing motion, imagine...) but a slow start does not a poor career make.

Tebow has things to overcome, but he also has positives to his game that we could really use right now. Play him and find out whether the benefits overcome the drawbacks.

Ah well. Two more games til he gets his shot.

~G

Indeed. I dont remember your take on it but i thought that Brees was going to be a bust.

[Northman]

I agree that is what the FO might be thinking in regards to him.

And if that is what they think, throw him out there and shut the fans up. I didn't want Tebow to be a Bronco and was pissed at what they did to get him. I don't know if he is the answer at QB.

But I know the bum isn't. So throw Tebow out there. Forget Quinn, he isn't in the Broncos future anyways. Throw Tebow out there and we will see. If he flops, the FO can feel justified and perhaps earn a little bit of leeway from the doubters amongst us who think they are damn near clueless right now.

Part of me wonders if Tebow ain't in their plans and they are worried that Tebow will succeed if they play him, and the fallout from the fans if the Broncos decide to go in a different direction next season.

I agree with this also. If you put Tebow out there you kill two birds with one stone. If he fails than you at least let the fans see it first hand. If you put him in the fanatics who want billboards or whatever also shut up. At the end of the day putting him out on the field solves a lot of the PR woes this team has right now. People want to talk about all the distractions of billboards and what not but the biggest distraction is allowing it to continue while he sits on the bench and Orton continues to be mediocre. For those that want a guy like Luck or whatever playing Tebow should be to their advantage as fans. If he sucks, we continue to lose and you get your guy.

[Joel]

What does it say when a future HOF coach pulled a starter who was 40-18 for the franchise for a highly touted 1st round pick?

He pulled that QB with a 7-4 record NOT 4-7.

I wonder what Shanahan would do had he inherited the current situation like Elway has.

I think it is safe to say that he would pull Orton. After all, the guy traded for McNabb a 2nd and a 3rd or 4th which isn't a shabby investment. He had no problem pulling McNabb for Rex last year and took a ton of heat for it in the media! I haven't heard one media member have the decency to come back and say Shanny was right!

Shanahan pulled him with a 5-8 record not 6-19! Washington wasn't going anywhere last year. By all accounts they are rebuilding as much as we are yet he still had no issues looking into Rex and Beck to see what he has.

So for all those here reminiscing for the Shanahan days yet happen to still support Orton, maybe this is some food for thought :noidea:
Have you looked at the Skins depth chart?
http://www.nfl.com/teams/washingtonredskins/depthchart?team=WAS

They need a QB and halfback, and could use more good offensive linemen (which they've already begun getting) but I only WISH our roster was in the same shape as theirs. Shanny's finally got a solid D again and all he has to do is not screw it up, replace London Fletcher when he goes, and whip the offense into shape. He may not even need a new halfback; Ryan Torain averaged 4.5 YPC last season. Anyway....

Tebow is not Elway, and if anyone knows that my guess is it would be Elway himself. When Elway came out of college coaches, scouts and media weren't all talking about what a great TE end he'd be for whichever team took him in the 3rd for 4th round. He was the #1 overall pick, held out for a trade and GOT IT. Tebow vs. Elway is an apples to watermelons comparison. They both throw a long way and run well; the similarities begin and end there. Steve Young makes a much better comparison, and Steve Young spent his first years on the bench (though Orton is obviously not Montana.) I think he might be a good QB in a few years with a lot of NFL QB training and practice, but isn't yet; I could easily be wrong about any or all of that though.

I agree with pulling Orton because he's not getting it done, but STRONGLY feel that should be the argument, leaving his replacement entirely up to the coaches. There many good arguments for pulling Orton, like his record, his attitude, his zoning in on receivers, his batted balls, his pocket awareness, his completion percentage, his YPA, the fact he's already got as 1/4th as many interceptions as he had all last year and the lowest rated season since his rookie year. That's a devastating litany, but there are plenty of good arguments against all his potential replacements and not many for them, so the moment any given one of them is suggested Orton immediately looks a lot better. Don't go there if you want Orton out of the game.

In fact, it's entirely possible that Ortons advocates don't just want to bash Tebow, they want to keep the narrative set in terms of Orton vs. Tebow, because all the arguments against Tebow give them arguments FOR Orton that would otherwise be hard to find. They could play the same game with Quinn or Weber, but it's hard to deny Tebow isn't the easiest whipping boy to find. Force them to make the case for Orton, rationalize and excuse the mountain of arguments against him if they can, but don't make their job easier by nominating a piñata on whom they can inflict the abuse rightfully his.

[BroncoStud]

Orton would have been pulled by week 2 if Shanahan were here. Hell, Shanny could have traded for Orton in the offseason had he wanted to but he was too smart to do it. For all of the criticism Shanahan gets for his drafts and free agent mistakes, he knows QB play and he gets more out of his QBs than any HC I have ever seen.

Shanahan would never have put up with Orton's lack of clutch ability. It just wouldn't have flown.

[Tned]

Lol, yea Kreckman is totally incorrect here. If Orton was winning there wouldnt be cries for anyone.

A promo for his radio show today was something like "what do the Broncos say to all the fans screaming for Quinn?" That was him mocking the fans calling for Tebow, because he remains resolute in his belief that it has nothing, or little, to do with Orton's play, but instead just fans in love with Tebow.

[jhildebrand]

Today on Les & Jo Jo they went on about how a person hoping for a Denver loss this weekend isn't a TRUE Denver BRONCOS fan.

In the next breath they went on about how it is ok to hope this team loses out for Andrew Luck. No qualifers or explanations.

I don't get how one can't hope for short term losses for one QB to replace Orton but another can hope for more long term losses for a QB to replace Orton.

I can't stand the ticket. I gave them a shot. They have no credibility with me because of stuff like this.

L-A-M-E!