PDA

View Full Version : Who is worse at their position? Moreno or Orton?



sneakers
09-27-2011, 12:39 AM
Hmmmmm...

No one can deny that Orton is terrible, but it isn't a surprise since he has been in the league for so long. But Moreno was drafted in the 1st round and gets tripped by the line of scrimmage whenever he carries the ball.

Lancane
09-27-2011, 12:45 AM
Orton, without question.

Moreno sucks in any offensive system not utilizing the zone blocking scheme as the base offensive line blocking scheme...I've long stated as much. Orton sucks no matter what system or scheme is being used and the proof is in the pudding!

Joel
09-27-2011, 01:54 AM
If nothing else it's a bad comparison because we've seen that our primary alternative to Moreno does no better: McGahee has the same career rushing average (over an admittedly longer career) and a whopping 0.1 higher average this season. He's a straight ahead downhill Foxesque power runner and couldn't get 2 yards on 3 tries yesterday; maybe Moreno's tripping over more than just the LoS, and dancing for a reason: He has lots of eager partners.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McGaWi00.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoreKn00.htm

I like zone blocking, in part because I think it's better for forming pockets with agile linemen, but if we're going to be a power running team we may need a guard who's heavier than 313. That's our backup center; everyone else is 305 or less--which means all our tackles weigh as much or more (OK, technically, Tony Hill is listed at 304, but you get the point.) If we're going to play smash mouth football (which may not be a bad idea with more teams running 3-4s and huge strong NTs hard to find) we need guards who can actually SMASH people in the MOUTH.
http://www.nfl.com/teams/denverbroncos/depthchart?team=DEN

Right now the only thing McGahee has on Moreno is durability, which he's definitely going to need unless our line play gets a lot better. Unfortunately, that durability comes with an extra 35 pounds on a back who's only an inch taller, which gives me a fair idea of who's faster even if McGahee's got more power.

Clipworthy
09-27-2011, 02:15 AM
Moreno is better, because he at least comes off the field when he's sucking.

Bosco
09-27-2011, 02:45 AM
If nothing else it's a bad comparison because we've seen that our primary alternative to Moreno does no better: McGahee has the same career rushing average (over an admittedly longer career) and a whopping 0.1 higher average this season. He's a straight ahead downhill Foxesque power runner and couldn't get 2 yards on 3 tries yesterday; maybe Moreno's tripping over more than just the LoS, and dancing for a reason: He has lots of eager partners.

Been saying that since day one. Our problems with the running game have more to do with poor offensive line play.

dogfish
09-27-2011, 03:37 AM
this is like one of those animal battles on youtube-- like bear vs. gator!



FxG1NxQPorU

Northman
09-27-2011, 08:30 AM
Clearly Orton.

Buff
09-27-2011, 08:55 AM
Moreno sucks much worse IMO. I think he will be out of the league in a couple of years. Orton is a serviceable NFL QB, even an above average backup.

Moreno really has no redeeming qualities. Can't stay healthy, not a good teammate, not fast, not especially elusive, doesn't have good vision. He is virtually worthless.

Another good gauge IMO is what each player would fetch in a trade - I see Orton's value being higher than Moreno - granted it's a little skewed because QB is more valuable... Salary is another measuring stick.

jhildebrand
09-27-2011, 09:03 AM
Beadles is clearly the worst of the two :D

WIFan
09-27-2011, 09:54 AM
Orton is the better value of the 2. That isn't saying he is the best fit for the current team.

WIFan
www.benchkyleorton.com

BroncoNut
09-27-2011, 10:20 AM
If nothing else it's a bad comparison because we've seen that our primary alternative to Moreno does no better: McGahee has the same career rushing average (over an admittedly longer career) and a whopping 0.1 higher average this season. He's a straight ahead downhill Foxesque power runner and couldn't get 2 yards on 3 tries yesterday; maybe Moreno's tripping over more than just the LoS, and dancing for a reason: He has lots of eager partners.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McGaWi00.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoreKn00.htm

I like zone blocking, in part because I think it's better for forming pockets with agile linemen, but if we're going to be a power running team we may need a guard who's heavier than 313. That's our backup center; everyone else is 305 or less--which means all our tackles weigh as much or more (OK, technically, Tony Hill is listed at 304, but you get the point.) If we're going to play smash mouth football (which may not be a bad idea with more teams running 3-4s and huge strong NTs hard to find) we need guards who can actually SMASH people in the MOUTH.
http://www.nfl.com/teams/denverbroncos/depthchart?team=DEN

Right now the only thing McGahee has on Moreno is durability, which he's definitely going to need unless our line play gets a lot better. Unfortunately, that durability comes with an extra 35 pounds on a back who's only an inch taller, which gives me a fair idea of who's faster even if McGahee's got more power.

what is an NT?

BroncoNut
09-27-2011, 10:28 AM
thanks buff. is nose tackle an offensive position?

Nomad
09-27-2011, 10:32 AM
thanks buff. is nose tackle an offensive position?

Nut, where does the arm tackle line up?:confused:

BroncoNut
09-27-2011, 10:34 AM
Nut, where does the arm tackle line up?:confused:

stop it Nomad, it is a serious question. an arm tackle is a poor technique of tackling, not a position per se in case I need to make that clear

Ravage!!!
09-27-2011, 10:35 AM
Moreno sucks much worse IMO. I think he will be out of the league in a couple of years. Orton is a serviceable NFL QB, even an above average backup.

Moreno really has no redeeming qualities. Can't stay healthy, not a good teammate, not fast, not especially elusive, doesn't have good vision. He is virtually worthless.

Another good gauge IMO is what each player would fetch in a trade - I see Orton's value being higher than Moreno - granted it's a little skewed because QB is more valuable... Salary is another measuring stick.

Great points, Buff.

Orton is a poor quality starter, but would make a pretty good back-up. Moreno, on the other hand, won't make it in the league at all and most probably can't beat out many back-ups in the NFL.

Moreno is worse at his position than Orton is.

Nomad
09-27-2011, 10:35 AM
stop it Nomad, it is a serious question. an arm tackle is a poor technique of tackling, not a position per se in case I need to make that clear

Why don't they call it nose guard anymore?

BroncoNut
09-27-2011, 10:41 AM
Why don't they call it nose guard anymore?

I do not know. quit messing around with me though Wally.

my undrestanding of most line formations is this.. on offense there is center flanked by offensive guards. outside of each offensive guard is an offensive tackle. The guards and tackles really need to work on their social skills because (get it)

now on the defensive line there are usually 2 defensive guards and 2 tackles

Nomad
09-27-2011, 11:10 AM
I do not know. quit messing around with me though Wally.

my undrestanding of most line formations is this.. on offense there is center flanked by offensive guards. outside of each offensive guard is an offensive tackle. The guards and tackles really need to work on their social skills because (get it)

now on the defensive line there are usually 2 defensive guards and 2 tackles

Sorry man, I was just trying to learn from the BEST^^^^^^!:pout: Will you teach the gaps and defensive techniques later?!?

Joel
09-27-2011, 11:10 AM
Been saying that since day one. Our problems with the running game have more to do with poor offensive line play.
Unfortunately I think that's what causes a lot of fan frustration: Do ALL our QBs and RBs suck, or just our line? My guess is it's a combination, but their independence makes it hard to accurately identify the weak (or weakEST) link. The whole "start x at Q/RB now111" debate may be pointless until we have guards who can give us a couple yards of line surge on every down and not get canned by opposing DTs.

Unfortunately, the dishonest offensive genius who left town last year DESTROYED the good Broncos offenses that singlehandedly kept us in contention despite the fact Shanny couldn't run a good D if you told him how. As a result, we're in full rebuild mode, and with Fox at the helm we'll most likely morph into a defence oriented team where offense is an afterthought that only has to be good enough to not-lose games rather than win them. If it were 1955 I'd be totally stoked.... :tsk:

what is an NT?
A nose tackle is the anchor of the 3-4 offensive line who stuffs runs up the gut, collapses pockets, occupies multiple blockers and uses guards who are 50 pounds lighter to beat their own QBs and runners to death. I can understand why fellow Broncos fans need the term defined; the only one we've seen in the last decade was Sam Adams playing with a walker.

Chris Kuper falling on the sword yesterday...hadn't seen this posted: http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_18976668

Good find, and a depressingly accurate assessment, especially from Kuper, our only quality guard, who put the game on his back, dropped the ball and admitted to both. Unfortunately, he's just one guy and, by the standards of NFL guards, a small one typical of the Broncos. That was defensible in a zone blocking system that emphasized agility and quickness, pulling, leading and cut blocking, but in a straight up power running game a 303 pound guard on a 360 pound NT is a mismatch that results in what we saw on the goal line Sunday. Titans DT Shaun Smith is 6-2 and 325; Kuper is 6-4 and 303: What did we expect to happen?

Fox is right about one thing: With 1st and G at the 2 any NFL team should punch that in every time unless they commit a stupid penalty somewhere; any team that can't needs a lot of work on offense before they'll be in contention. That actually makes the call better from a coaching perspective: If you make it you've got a late two score lead, are probably 2-1 and have reason to believe you've got a playoff run in you; if not, you can be pretty sure the playoffs are out of the question and should start getting the team ready for next year.

jlarsiii
09-27-2011, 11:10 AM
There is no way to fairly compare the two, but I voted for Moreno. We wasted a high first round pick on the guy and he can't even beat out a retread RB picked up from another team who had his knee utterly destroyed to end his college career and was never the same back after.

For all Orton is and isn't, at least we didn't draft him (was a throw-in on a trade). On top of that he wasn't selected in the first round by the team that drafted him. He was taken in the fourth round.

Using the skewed logic of production based on draft position Orton kills Moreno in comparison. . .

Joel
09-27-2011, 11:16 AM
I do not know. quit messing around with me though Wally.

my undrestanding of most line formations is this.. on offense there is center flanked by offensive guards. outside of each offensive guard is an offensive tackle. The guards and tackles really need to work on their social skills because (get it)

now on the defensive line there are usually 2 defensive guards and 2 tackles
I've generally heard the defensive line referred to as one (or two in a 4-3) defensive tackle(s) between two defensive ends. Twenty years ago it seemed like the term "nose guard" was on its way out and today it seems like it's pretty much gone. Calling them "defensive guards" makes more sense but can make the term "guard" ambiguous, which I would suspect is the reason for the change--except calling them "defensive tackles" makes the term "tackle" just as ambiguous.

NightTerror218
09-27-2011, 11:18 AM
I have to say Orton, cause Moreno can still be a 3rd down back. I dont care if he was a 1st rounder...does not matter anymore he is a RB for us and frankly not the best we have. Orton can not be a situational down QB like Moreno can be.

BroncoBully
09-27-2011, 11:24 AM
anyone know moreno's longest nfl carry so far?

I used to keep track but after about 2 years of never seeing him run 1 for more then 30 i gave up on him.

BroncoNut
09-27-2011, 11:28 AM
anyone know moreno's longest nfl carry so far?

I used to keep track but after about 2 years of never seeing him run 1 for more then 30 i gave up on him.

I don't know but 30, if that's what it is, is unacceptable

broncofaninfla
09-27-2011, 11:35 AM
Back when Shanahan was the coach it was easier to spot the scrubs because we didn't have as many. Now after the Mcd debacle Denver is overrun with scrubs. It's getting harder to tell who sucks more when so many suck at the same time. With that being said I'll give the nod to Moreno because based on watching his play I question his effot. He goes down way too easy and has no running lane vision. Orton plays as good as the sytem he is handed. If a play breaks down so does Orton. While I don't care for either I'll give the sux most nod to No Show........

NightTerror218
09-27-2011, 11:35 AM
anyone know moreno's longest nfl carry so far?

I used to keep track but after about 2 years of never seeing him run 1 for more then 30 i gave up on him.

he might have had some long runs last season when he broke 100 yards

edit 35 last season

BroncoNut
09-27-2011, 11:38 AM
Moreno's worse at running back and Orton is worse at qb

tubby
09-27-2011, 11:47 AM
Injury Prone Jersey Clown

BroncoNut
09-27-2011, 12:38 PM
Injury Prone Jersey Clown

great post. eff Jersey and the whole eastern seaboard except Missy, North, Beef and his family, and the families of North and Missy, Clay and his family, that dude in the alleyway in 03 and whoever else I missed.

slim
09-27-2011, 12:44 PM
great post. eff Jersey and the whole eastern seaboard except Missy, North, Beef and his family, and the families of North and Missy, Clay and his family, that dude in the alleyway in 03 and whoever else I missed.

What about Pags?

BroncoNut
09-27-2011, 12:47 PM
What about Pags?

reference dude in the alleyway in 03

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-27-2011, 01:44 PM
Moreno might not be a 3 down pro bowl RB right now, but he's definitely one of the best receiving backs in the game.

CrazyHorse
09-27-2011, 02:55 PM
this is like one of those animal battles on youtube-- like bear vs. gator!



FxG1NxQPorU

I LOVED that show when it was on Animal Planet!