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BORDERLINE
09-26-2011, 08:26 PM
Looking at the short cuts on DTV Sunday ticket I wanted to see what went wrong with the calls. I'm no expert but this is what I saw.....

1st Down: Orton threw the ball away mere seconds after he had snapped it. There was no immediate pressure hence he didn't have to just chuck it out of bounds. Could have been a over throw. I noticed the left side of the field completely empty and it appears a Broncos WR was coming out of his route but Orton never even looked to that side of the field. He could have tucked it and jolted to the pylon ala Tebow.

2nd Down: A running play looks to have been headed to the right but TE Fells was pushed all the way back and made Willis dash inside for little gain.

3rd down: A Run, I believed called a counter to the left looks like Kuper pulled and missed the defender he was supposed to engage. TE Virgil Green was a FB and lined up to the right on the play and actually impeded Willis because he was just so damn slow to get to the left. Again it looked like the left side was somewhat open game had Willis just bounced it out.

4th down: Looks to be all on TE Fells. Dude got pushed back all the way to FB Larsen. That caused Larsen and Willis to dart straight since the Right side had been breached. Kinda like Willis said it was supposed to go right but ended up going straight.

That was the sequence of plays that I really needed to see. Also Orton had like 4 tipped passes that's just too many.

BroncoStud
09-26-2011, 09:13 PM
Orton and Fells, doing the Broncos proud. :elefant:

broncobryce
09-26-2011, 09:13 PM
I noticed one thing about Mcgahee. He always fakes to the outside then takes it inside. Every run he did this. I'm not saying it's wrong or right because I don't know what he saw but it did appear there was room on the outside at times. He just kept running up the middle.

SpringsBroncoFan
09-26-2011, 10:10 PM
Fyi... on the 1st down play where they are trying to sucker the defense, QB's are taught to dump the ball if the single receiver is not open...

It's great when it works for a TD but otherwise it's just a throwaway down...

MOtorboat
09-26-2011, 10:13 PM
Fyi... on the 1st down play where they are trying to sucker the defense, QB's are taught to dump the ball if the single receiver is not open...

It's great when it works for a TD but otherwise it's just a throwaway down...

Actually, I have good information that the only quarterback to ever do this is Kyle Orton.

Joel
09-26-2011, 10:16 PM
McGahee's a three yards and a cloud of dust runner, on Sunday he was a 2.4 yards and a cloud of dust runner and at the goal line he was a half yard and a cloud of dust runner. His career is built of goal line/short yardage plays like that; if he can't make his bread and butter plays for us, we have a serious problem.

PAINTERDAVE
09-26-2011, 10:44 PM
WE DO have a serious problem.

We have a FO that thinks we can still be competitive and make the playoffs.

They refuse to use the word REBUILD...
and they are not doing much to build a new team...

Sure they are playing a few rooks, but every team does.

They seem to have simply tweaked the old scheme...
and are just cruising on the same track as the last two years.

I had higher hopes for the first year of the rebuild...
not in wins... but in innovation and a genuine new direction.

Same old QB.. same old crap.. same old same old.

sneakers
09-26-2011, 11:25 PM
The obvious solution to this is to sign more Tight Ends.

Tned
09-26-2011, 11:31 PM
Actually, I have good information that the only quarterback to ever do this is Kyle Orton.

Wow, the constant sarcastic one liners really add a lot to the conversations. :salute:

In an attempt to actually add something to the conversation.

I just rewatched the pass play. There was a receiver (TE I think) on the left side of the line that was open briefly. Orton never looked that way, even though there was no pressure on him.

Looked like going in the play was to go to one of the receivers flaring right or to throw it away. It's a shame that he didn't glance to his left when it was clear they were covered, but I think it was designed to be a quick hitter to make sure he didn't take a sack and so he never looked to see that there was no pressure coming.

SpringsBroncoFan
09-26-2011, 11:49 PM
The obvious solution to this is to sign more Tight Ends.

The irony is that the blocking TE we dumped is the one that caught the winning TD...

Joel
09-27-2011, 01:02 AM
The irony is that the blocking TE we dumped is the one that caught the winning TD...
Noticed that, too, eh? He kept telling NE he could and wanted to catch balls, and they kept telling him to shut up and block, so he skipped town on Denvers assurance he'd get to be a receiver. That never happened so now he's catching game winning passes against us and remains a GREAT blocker, while we snatch up second string TEs as fast as we can find them and can't run OR pass for 2 yards in 4 tries. Disappointing, to say the least.

bcbronc
09-27-2011, 01:14 AM
Also Orton had like 4 tipped passes that's just too many.

I heard Tom Brady had 7 passes deflected at the LOS vs Buff...apparently that happens sometimes.

Anyways, good job breaking down the plays. The throw away is the right play on that play...you're expecting (as an OC) to have some penetration due to the play action and it being the goalline, and you don't want to take a sack.

I don't know if everyone had the same feed, but the announcers on my feed immediately spoke on how that's the nature of that play...one read and either hit the open receiver or throw it in the stands. Pretty standard play really, something you probably see at least a half dozen times any given Sunday..and sometimes by QBs that don't suck.

Other than that, just lousy play calling. We couldn't run up the gut all day, so 4th down's the charm!



They refuse to use the word REBUILD...
and they are not doing much to build a new team...



oh yeah, that went over well when the last regime took that approach! :laugh:


Noticed that, too, eh? He kept telling NE he could and wanted to catch balls, and they kept telling him to shut up and block, so he skipped town on Denvers assurance he'd get to be a receiver. That never happened so now he's catching game winning passes against us and remains a GREAT blocker, while we snatch up second string TEs as fast as we can find them and can't run OR pass for 2 yards in 4 tries. Disappointing, to say the least.

in fairness to the current FO, Graham did suck, dropped everything but his drawers on the field as a Bronco and was way overpaid to be a third TE/blocking specialist here. Letting him go was absolutely the correct move, GWTD catch or no.

BORDERLINE
09-27-2011, 01:24 AM
Bcbronco I know tip passes happen in the NFL come on these are 6'4 linemen it's just they seem to happen more to Orton then the opposing QB. And when u say Brady had seven passes knocked down he also had four TD kind of makes up for it don't you think

BORDERLINE
09-27-2011, 01:30 AM
I noticed one thing about Mcgahee. He always fakes to the outside then takes it inside. Every run he did this. I'm not saying it's wrong or right because I don't know what he saw but it did appear there was room on the outside at times. He just kept running up the middle.
Yeah I seen some green for willis had he bounced it outside on some of those runs. Maybe that's how the play is supposed to go but I just feel we will not be explosive in the run game if we don't get a speedster to round the edge and simply out run LB and make safetys miss

Bosco
09-27-2011, 03:27 AM
I noticed one thing about Mcgahee. He always fakes to the outside then takes it inside. Every run he did this. I'm not saying it's wrong or right because I don't know what he saw but it did appear there was room on the outside at times. He just kept running up the middle.

Could be a counter. Pretty goddamn stupid to call that on the goal line, but with McCoy, anything is possible.


Wow, the constant sarcastic one liners really add a lot to the conversations. :salute:

In an attempt to actually add something to the conversation.

I just rewatched the pass play. There was a receiver (TE I think) on the left side of the line that was open briefly. Orton never looked that way, even though there was no pressure on him.

Looked like going in the play was to go to one of the receivers flaring right or to throw it away. It's a shame that he didn't glance to his left when it was clear they were covered, but I think it was designed to be a quick hitter to make sure he didn't take a sack and so he never looked to see that there was no pressure coming.

If that's the play I'm thinking of, it had Orton rolling out to the right, correct? If that's the case you're not going to have a QB throw clear across the formation while rolling away. I'm not even sure why they would have someone out in a route on that side of a play obviously designed to go the other way.


in fairness to the current FO, Graham did suck, dropped everything but his drawers on the field as a Bronco and was way overpaid to be a third TE/blocking specialist here. Letting him go was absolutely the correct move, GWTD catch or no. I'm not sure why this myth keeps getting perpetuated, but I've quite literally watched every game Graham played in as a Bronco (and most of them as a Patriot too) and could count on my hands the number of legitimate, clean drops he's had. He was actually a very sure handed target, especially in his prime, and let's not forget that he was an excellent weapon in college.

dogfish
09-27-2011, 03:49 AM
A Breakdown of the Goal Line Calls:

They sucked.



:salute:


:welcome:

dogfish
09-27-2011, 04:18 AM
seriously, quit poosyfooting around and get the Wild Jesus formation out there when we're on the two stinkin' yardline. . . stat!



"We're going to have the most sophisticated run game in the league."

- John Fox



:noidea:


IF you're going to insist on starting kyle orton, the ONLY justification is that you're trying to make the playoffs as long as you're mathematically in it. . . whether orton actually gives you the best chance is a COMPLETELY different topic and irrelevant here-- the point is, that's their reasoning. . . but if that's how it's going to be. . . if you're going to play joe mays over nate irving, and start goodman over vaughn, start fells over virgil green and dawk over Q carter, etc etc. . . then you damn well better sell all the way out and make your absolute best effort at it. . .

getting the taste of some victory is a very positive experience for a young group-- banging your head against the wall while your "veteran leader" literally drops the ball doesn't do anything good for anybody. . . AND it makes the natives insanely restless as well. . . they need to friggin' decide which of these things they want to do, and then commit to doing it. . . quit playing ****ing politics with the quarter back situation and worry about winning the mother****ing GAME!

even halfwits like herm edwards and josh mcdaniels can grasp that concept. . . come on. . .

i don't care whether they're worried about tebow's contract escalaors or orton's ego, or just too stubborn to appear to bow to fan pressure. . . can the fainting goat and human cannonball act, and get the relentless and unpredictable triple threat on the field. . . how many goal line opportunities did we convert with that package last year? a damn bit better than we are this year, for sure. . .

just don't tell me we're "going with what gives us the best chance to win" and then refuse to go with the formation that converted red zone chances at by far the highest clip just last year. . . with most of the same personnel. . . under the same gatdamn O-coordinator, you infuriating jackasses! it's right in the damn playbook from last year-- along with the brutally overused chuck-it-deep-to-lloyd and bubble screen that should also get dug out before next week. . .


but if you aren't going to actually do everything you can to win, then let all the kids play instead of just the top few draft picks. . .


or are mario haggan and andre goodman the guys we're "building for the future with?"

you can't have it both ways. . . losing while getting invaluable live game reps for young guys that have a chance of being here more than another year or so is acceptable because it has legitimate potential to pay dividends in the foreseeable future-- losing with pointless stopgaps like kyle orton, joe mays and willis mcgahee is just a soul-stomping pile of ****ing fail. . .

bah. . . total exercise in futility, seriously. . . we can't lose to the damn raiders with irving in there instead of dead-end mays? i apologize for the rambling and ranting, but what the hell is the direction of this franchise? i at least see some modestly encouraging early returns on the return to defensive respectability, but that is about it-- and that first step in the dreaded five-year program (ask KC fans!) is far from enough in a league that has featured some overnight worst-to-first turnarounds. . .

just figure out how to put the ball in the damn endzone-- it's one of the most basic, fundamental aspects of your jobs, stop getting cute and use the bludgeon laying right there by your feet. . .


alright, sorry. . . i'm done. . .


SMH

Bosco
09-27-2011, 04:51 AM
^^

This is one problem alot of people had with Fox while he was in Carolina. He was very stubborn about playing veterans over the younger players.

dogfish
09-27-2011, 04:58 AM
Noticed that, too, eh? He kept telling NE he could and wanted to catch balls, and they kept telling him to shut up and block, so he skipped town on Denvers assurance he'd get to be a receiver. That never happened so now he's catching game winning passes against us and remains a GREAT blocker, while we snatch up second string TEs as fast as we can find them and can't run OR pass for 2 yards in 4 tries. Disappointing, to say the least.

not half as disappointing as some of graham's drops. . .

:D:elefant:

i told folks before we even hired a coach that he and his salary were prime candiadtes to be cut by the next regime. . . pretty obvious. . . he's not a bad player-- just not nearly worth what we paid him. . .



I'm not sure why this myth keeps getting perpetuated, but I've quite literally watched every game Graham played in as a Bronco (and most of them as a Patriot too) and could count on my hands the number of legitimate, clean drops he's had. He was actually a very sure handed target, especially in his prime, and let's not forget that he was an excellent weapon in college.

*cough*bullshit*cough*


ahh, excuse me. . .


:D:welcome:

MOtorboat
09-27-2011, 07:33 AM
Wow, the constant sarcastic one liners really add a lot to the conversations. :salute:

In an attempt to actually add something to the conversation.

I just rewatched the pass play. There was a receiver (TE I think) on the left side of the line that was open briefly. Orton never looked that way, even though there was no pressure on him.

Looked like going in the play was to go to one of the receivers flaring right or to throw it away. It's a shame that he didn't glance to his left when it was clear they were covered, but I think it was designed to be a quick hitter to make sure he didn't take a sack and so he never looked to see that there was no pressure coming.

I'm sorry, I'll try to stick to the BroncosForums company lines:

Kyle Orton Sucks.

Play Tebow. He scores a touchdown there and we would be 3-0.

Or...maybe I could just spam the forum with pictures of Kirk Cousins.

I haven't seen the play, but a throw-away on first down is a lot less harmless than not kicking a field goal to go up by 7 on first down, and losing the game by that 3-point margin.

Chris Kuper falling on the sword yesterday...hadn't seen this posted: http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_18976668

As both Buff and I pointed out in the gameday thread (think it was there) there's a problem with this team's identity. Either you are a go-getting offense that makes crazy fourth down calls and throws it all over the field, or you stay conservative. Do things like kick field goals on fourth down, no matter where you are. Right now the play calling seems inconsistent.

But, that's not "I hate Kyle Orton," so no one will probably respond to discuss...

Tned
09-27-2011, 07:47 AM
I'm sorry, I'll try to stick to the BroncosForums company lines:

Kyle Orton Sucks.

Play Tebow. He scores a touchdown there and we would be 3-0.

Well, that's a pretty ridiculous statement. There is no "company line" because BF is a collection of fans, with varying opinion. Yes, right now, just like across the Broncos fan community, people aren't happy with Orton's play. That doesn't mean trolling threads with sarcastic one liners and taking shots at other posters is right. Wouldn't you agree?


Or...maybe I could just spam the forum with pictures of Kirk Cousins.

Never heard of him.


I haven't seen the play, but a throw-away on first down is a lot less harmless than not kicking a field goal to go up by 7 on first down, and losing the game by that 3-point margin.

Ok, you are trolling threads and calling posters out based on not even seeing this play? Or game? Have you seen any games this year or are you just slamming other posters out of some contrarian rebelism?


But, that's not "I hate Kyle Orton," so no one will probably respond to discuss...

Maybe you should make as much effort to drive to a sports bar and watch the games as you put into slamming fellow fans, when you haven't even seen what they are posting about. Just a thought.

Mike
09-27-2011, 07:51 AM
I'm sorry, I'll try to stick to the BroncosForums company lines:

Kyle Orton Sucks.

Play Tebow. He scores a touchdown there and we would be 3-0.

Or...maybe I could just spam the forum with pictures of Kirk Cousins.

I haven't seen the play, but a throw-away on first down is a lot less harmless than not kicking a field goal to go up by 7 on first down, and losing the game by that 3-point margin.

Chris Kuper falling on the sword yesterday...hadn't seen this posted: http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_18976668

As both Buff and I pointed out in the gameday thread (think it was there) there's a problem with this team's identity. Either you are a go-getting offense that makes crazy fourth down calls and throws it all over the field, or you stay conservative. Do things like kick field goals on fourth down, no matter where you are. Right now the play calling seems inconsistent.

But, that's not "I hate Kyle Orton," so no one will probably respond to discuss...

Horse poo, MO. I think there are plenty here who have made observations about McCoy and the need for a new OC.

And stop playing that pro-Tebow/anti-bum crap. People aren't pro-Tebow, they are anti-bum. Because all the guy does is lose. I see no problem with the criticism being leveled at the guy...just or unjust. The book is written on him; more than 2 years with the Broncos and his time in Chicago. He is a loser who folds when his team needs him. He plays good enough to make you think your team has a chance and then yanks the carpet out from under you. Same story, same result, and yet some people still fall for it.

Screw that. This team is not a playoff contender. I see no difference in winning 5 games compared to winning 3. I would rather cut the crap and start evaluating the young players and getting the ones that might stick some game time experience. I am more than willing to move forward with a rebuild, but to hell with this FO and its head coach, if they aren't willing to admit they are in a rebuild and commit to it.

MOtorboat
09-27-2011, 07:52 AM
Have you seen any games this year or are you just slamming other posters out of some contrarian rebelism?

Yup.

Saw the first two. Listened to the third. Dave Logan and Brian Griese didn't say anything about a wide open receiver on first down, that Kyle Orton should have hit. My apologies for missing that.

Make lots of football posts, and most aren't responded to, because the entire forum is stuck in "I hate Kyle Orton" form.

Kyle Orton led a great drive in the third quarter, and I've tried to discuss that, but no one wants to. Guess you missed that post too.

Obligatory Kirk Cousins picture:
http://media.mlive.com/spartans_impact/photo/kirk-cousins-15jpg-e67b16ea25ae1357_medium.jpg

SOCALORADO.
09-27-2011, 07:57 AM
Yup.

Saw the first two. Listened to the third. Dave Logan and Brian Griese didn't say anything about a wide open receiver on first down, that Kyle Orton should have hit. My apologies for missing that.

Make lots of football posts, and most aren't responded to, because the entire forum is stuck in "I hate Kyle Orton" form.

Kyle Orton led a great drive in the third quarter, and I've tried to discuss that, but no one wants to. Guess you missed that post too.

Obligatory Kirk Cousins picture:
http://media.mlive.com/spartans_impact/photo/kirk-cousins-15jpg-e67b16ea25ae1357_medium.jpg

Here we go again. Fricken Motor spamming the boards with his stupid favorite QB pics all damn day. Sheesh. Give it a rest buddy.

Tned
09-27-2011, 08:05 AM
Yup.

Saw the first two. Listened to the third. Dave Logan and Brian Griese didn't say anything about a wide open receiver on first down, that Kyle Orton should have hit. My apologies for missing that.


Put your trolling motor on pause and reread what I posted. I didn't say there was an open receiver he should have hit.

Slick
09-27-2011, 08:41 AM
I agree with the hoptard.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

vandammage13
09-27-2011, 08:52 AM
I haven't seen the play, but a throw-away on first down is a lot less harmless than not kicking a field goal to go up by 7 on first down, and losing the game by that 3-point margin...

Obviously you didn't watch the game, and you didn't see how bad Orton was.

How can you have an opinion on something you haven't seen?

I always wondered how you could possibly stick up for Orton, but now I know why...

You probably don't actually watch the games, and you just read the BS about how underrated Orton is and let that form your opinion instead of looking for yourself.

Watch the games...Orton sucks. Period.

If you aren't going to watch the games then don't preach to people about how it's not Orton's fault.

It all makes sense now...

/rant

vandammage13
09-27-2011, 08:57 AM
Yup.

Saw the first two. Listened to the third. Dave Logan and Brian Griese didn't say anything about a wide open receiver on first down, that Kyle Orton should have hit. My apologies for missing that.

Make lots of football posts, and most aren't responded to, because the entire forum is stuck in "I hate Kyle Orton" form.

Kyle Orton led a great drive in the third quarter, and I've tried to discuss that, but no one wants to. Guess you missed that post too.

Obligatory Kirk Cousins picture:
http://media.mlive.com/spartans_impact/photo/kirk-cousins-15jpg-e67b16ea25ae1357_medium.jpg

Have you noticed that your last couple of posts that weren't merely one liners were responded to by a variety of members?

When you add something to the conversation/debate people will respond.

When you reply with sarcastic one liners (which 80% of your posts are), people probably won't...

SpringsBroncoFan
09-27-2011, 09:47 AM
Noticed that, too, eh? He kept telling NE he could and wanted to catch balls, and they kept telling him to shut up and block, so he skipped town on Denvers assurance he'd get to be a receiver. That never happened so now he's catching game winning passes against us and remains a GREAT blocker, while we snatch up second string TEs as fast as we can find them and can't run OR pass for 2 yards in 4 tries. Disappointing, to say the least.

He was overpaid... period. In a perfect world a team has a blocking, receving, & playmaking TE but the reality is $$$, roster space, & talent are limited.

I think the goal is for the OL to block without the help of TE's...

In today's NFL teams are attacking the defense with playmaking TE's & H backs, ergo drafting Thomas & Green. Send a wideout over the middle and see them get killed but send a TE who's a matchup problem and it turns the tables on the defense...

Joel
09-27-2011, 10:25 AM
I'm not sure why this myth keeps getting perpetuated, but I've quite literally watched every game Graham played in as a Bronco (and most of them as a Patriot too) and could count on my hands the number of legitimate, clean drops he's had. He was actually a very sure handed target, especially in his prime, and let's not forget that he was an excellent weapon in college.
I think Graham's problem is that true TEs aren't too popular these days; they're all huge receivers or fast tackles. If a TE's a great blocker teams are afraid to lose that by sending him out to catch passes unless he has hands of glue, and every time he drops one fans say, "See? Told you he can't catch," and forget the dozen catches before that.

He was overpaid... period. In a perfect world a team has a blocking, receving, & playmaking TE but the reality is $$$, roster space, & talent are limited.

I think the goal is for the OL to block without the help of TE's...

In today's NFL teams are attacking the defense with playmaking TE's & H backs, ergo drafting Thomas & Green. Send a wideout over the middle and see them get killed but send a TE who's a matchup problem and it turns the tables on the defense...
I loved Jay Novacek as much as anyone, but a big WR is a big WR, not a TE. You can't run (and rarely pass) block in the NFL with just 5 or 6 guys; that gives the D anywhere from 1-4 extra tacklers to send into your backfield. Backs have to do far more than just run (e.g. pick up the blitz and catch flat passes,) but TEs, by definition, have to be good blockers AND receivers or they're just WRs or OTs pretending to be TEs. It's hard to believe we COULD overpay for a great blocker when our power runner got stood up three times straight from the 2 yard line and we're snatching up (and thus pay) every scrub TE we can find. It's like the "draft for need or talent with a top pick?" debate; we can sign 53 UDFAs for about $6 million, but there's a reason we don't.

Chris Kuper falling on the sword yesterday...hadn't seen this posted: http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_18976668

Good find, and a depressingly accurate assessment, especially from Kuper, our only quality guard, who put the game on his back, dropped the ball and admitted to both. Unfortunately, he's just one guy and, by the standards of NFL guards, a small one typical of the Broncos. That was defensible in a zone blocking system that emphasized agility and quickness, pulling, leading and cut blocking, but in a straight up power running game a 303 pound guard on a 360 pound NT is a mismatch that results in what we saw on the goal line Sunday. Titans DT Shaun Smith is 6-2 and 325; Kuper is 6-4 and 303: What did we expect to happen?

Fox is right about one thing: With 1st and G at the 2 any NFL team should punch that in every time unless they commit a stupid penalty somewhere; any team that can't needs a lot of work on offense before they'll be in contention. That actually makes the call better from a coaching perspective: If you make it you've got a late two score lead, are probably 2-1 and have reason to believe you've got a playoff run in you; if not, you can be pretty sure the playoffs are out of the question and should start getting the team ready for next year.

Tned
09-27-2011, 06:05 PM
Actually, I have good information that the only quarterback to ever do this is Kyle Orton.

Since you didn't have a chance to see the game, here's a couple screen grabs showing the pressure (or lack there of) when Orton threw it away, and the receiver on the left that he could have looked at.

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/orton_GL1.JPG

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/orton_GL2.JPG

NightTerror218
09-27-2011, 06:35 PM
I heard Tom Brady had 7 passes deflected at the LOS vs Buff...apparently that happens sometimes.

Anyways, good job breaking down the plays. The throw away is the right play on that play...you're expecting (as an OC) to have some penetration due to the play action and it being the goalline, and you don't want to take a sack.

I don't know if everyone had the same feed, but the announcers on my feed immediately spoke on how that's the nature of that play...one read and either hit the open receiver or throw it in the stands. Pretty standard play really, something you probably see at least a half dozen times any given Sunday..and sometimes by QBs that don't suck.

Other than that, just lousy play calling. We couldn't run up the gut all day, so 4th down's the charm!



oh yeah, that went over well when the last regime took that approach! :laugh:



in fairness to the current FO, Graham did suck, dropped everything but his drawers on the field as a Bronco and was way overpaid to be a third TE/blocking specialist here. Letting him go was absolutely the correct move, GWTD catch or no.

Deflected passes do happen. Some times they are luck just throwing hands up and hoping others are because the Qb is staring down the receiver so they know it is coming their way. It could go either way. But I tend to think with Orton it is staring down receiver, i have noticed him doing that a lot this season so far.

BORDERLINE
09-27-2011, 06:46 PM
Deflected passes do happen. Some times they are luck just throwing hands up and hoping others are because the Qb is staring down the receiver so they know it is coming their way. It could go either way. But I tend to think with Orton it is staring down receiver, i have noticed him doing that a lot this season so far.

I think The Denver Post reported that Orton has had seven passes knocked down in three games and that is the most by any QB in the league. He went to explain that because defenses know he will not scramble they simple raise there hands and hope they get lucky.

Now if Orton where to move a bit and those D-Linemen start putting up there hands guess who should have the upper hand at that time. The Offensive line should shove those dudes to the dirt since the D-Linemen is not engaged anymore with the Offensive Linemen. Orton is not a scrambler or anything remote to it, therefore the Linemen has some shot at knocking it down.

BORDERLINE
09-27-2011, 06:47 PM
[QUOTE=Tned;1375707]Since you didn't have a chance to see the game, here's a couple screen grabs showing the pressure (or lack there of) when Orton threw it away, and the receiver on the left that he could have looked at.

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/orton_GL1.JPG

what do you think Tebow would have done with all that green around him and no Titans player to be found?

Tned
09-27-2011, 06:57 PM
Tebow, or most QB's, would have rolled right and let that TE in the back work open. Tebow, or other mobile QB, might have also taken off to the left.

BORDERLINE
09-27-2011, 07:48 PM
Tebow, or most QB's, would have rolled right and let that TE in the back work open. Tebow, or other mobile QB, might have also taken off to the left.

your right. What gets me worked up is that given how badly we are in the redzone we would still call a play that is contingent on only one guy being open. A throw away down when we are not good in the redzone.

We can't afford to throw away downs.

MOtorboat
09-27-2011, 09:29 PM
Thanks for the screenshots Tned. We all can't watch the game every week. Again, neither Griese or Logan felt he was open enough to comment.

It looks to me like the linebacker is in position to make a play on the tight end in screen shot one and that he's reacting to where the ball is thrown in screen shot two. I can't prove that nor can you really prove he's open, for what it's worth. Had he thrown it to the TE on the left side of the formation and it was tipped away or intercepted by said linebacker, Orton would get even more crucified for it.

The point still stands that a throw away on first down doesn't cost Denver the game. The failed lack of execution, poor play calling and bad decision to go for it on 4th down when you have the chance to go up 7 instead of 4, have more effect on the game overall.

The above is more of a indictment on Orton being an elite quarterback versus a "game manager." The post I responded to initially is correct in that first down play-action plays along the goalline ask the quarterback to make two reads: throw the fade to the primary tight end or throw it away, because you have two more downs to get it done.

All of this, in my opinion, takes away from the real problem. The lack of offensive playcalling consistency and philosophy.

If you ask your quarterback to throw it away on first down if the first read is covered, a conservative philosophy, why are you being aggressive and going for it on fourth down?

Tned
09-27-2011, 09:39 PM
Thanks for the screenshots Tned. We all can't watch the game every week. Again, neither Griese or Logan felt he was open enough to comment.

It looks to me like the linebacker is in position to make a play on the tight end in screen shot one and that he's reacting to where the ball is thrown in screen shot two. I can't prove that nor can you really prove he's open, for what it's worth. Had he thrown it to the TE on the left side of the formation and it was tipped away or intercepted by said linebacker, Orton would get even more crucified for it.

The point still stands that a throw away on first down doesn't cost Denver the game. The failed lack of execution, poor play calling and bad decision to go for it on 4th down when you have the chance to go up 7 instead of 4, have more effect on the game overall.

The above is more of a indictment on Orton being an elite quarterback versus a "game manager." The post I responded to initially is correct in that first down play-action plays along the goalline ask the quarterback to make two reads: throw the fade to the primary tight end or throw it away, because you have two more downs to get it done.

All of this, in my opinion, takes away from the real problem. The lack of offensive playcalling consistency and philosophy.

If you ask your quarterback to throw it away on first down if the first read is covered, a conservative philosophy, why are you being aggressive and going for it on fourth down?

First, let's remember that I said it looked like it was designed to be a throw to the corner or throw away, and he probably wasn't supposed to look to the left.

That said, just to clear up a few things. It was 'sort of' play action. It was a very half-hearted play fake. Orton didn't turn away from the LOS, or really make any effort to fake the hand off. Then immediately looked, and then threw the ball away.

Should he have taken a look to the left? Should he have seen there was no pressure and roll towards the right to see if a receiver came open? Should he have seen there was no pressure and nobody on the left and broken for the left pylon? Maybe none of those are 'allowed' on that play call. Maybe he's not the kind of QB to do any of that. I don't know. What I do know is that a lot of QBs would have attempted to make some kind of play.

MOtorboat
09-27-2011, 09:52 PM
First, let's remember that I said it looked like it was designed to be a throw to the corner or throw away, and he probably wasn't supposed to look to the left.

That said, just to clear up a few things. It was 'sort of' play action. It was a very half-hearted play fake. Orton didn't turn away from the LOS, or really make any effort to fake the hand off. Then immediately looked, and then threw the ball away.

Should he have taken a look to the left? Should he have seen there was no pressure and roll towards the right to see if a receiver came open? Should he have seen there was no pressure and nobody on the left and broken for the left pylon? Maybe none of those are 'allowed' on that play call. Maybe he's not the kind of QB to do any of that. I don't know. What I do know is that a lot of QBs would have attempted to make some kind of play.

I think what you're missing in your criticism of Orton is that it was first down.

Do I have confidence in Kyle Orton making a play in that situation on third down? Hell no.

But we're talking about first down. The throw away is fine, imo. The problem is that McCoy (and Fox) saw the throw away on first, maybe even ordered it, and still went for it on fourth down.

Again, and I don't know why we continue to discuss first down other than its another chance to pile on Kyle Orton, the question is the philosophy of the conservative play calls on first, second and third downs, why did whoever called the play make an aggressive decision on fourth down.

BroncoStud
09-27-2011, 09:55 PM
Since you didn't have a chance to see the game, here's a couple screen grabs showing the pressure (or lack there of) when Orton threw it away, and the receiver on the left that he could have looked at.

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/orton_GL1.JPG

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/orton_GL2.JPG

Geez Orton has a good 10 feet in front of him in every direction to wait for a guy to come open. What a douche.

Tned
09-27-2011, 10:01 PM
I think what you're missing in your criticism of Orton is that it was first down.

Do I have confidence in Kyle Orton making a play in that situation on third down? Hell no.

But we're talking about first down. The throw away is fine, imo. The problem is that McCoy (and Fox) saw the throw away on first, maybe even ordered it, and still went for it on fourth down.

Again, and I don't know why we continue to discuss first down other than its another chance to pile on Kyle Orton, the question is the philosophy of the conservative play calls on first, second and third downs, why did whoever called the play make an aggressive decision on fourth down.

Piling on? Really? Come on, Mo.

Anyway, the fact is that if he had started moving to the right, one of the receivers might have gotten open. A defender might have broken off to cover Orton's route. Those are facts. That's a fact whether it was first down or third down.

That said, I haven't seen much bashing of Orton over this play. It's barely been discussed on this board or on talk radio, so YOU are making a mountain out of a mole hill with your constant need to protect Orton.

At best, most of the talk about this play has been that people didn't like the play CALLED on first down.

Is there ANYTHING that posters on here do that you're ok with? Maybe you can start laying down the MO guidelines, so we can try and help make you comfortable.

MOtorboat
09-27-2011, 10:12 PM
Piling on? Really? Come on, Mo.

Anyway, the fact is that if he had started moving to the right, one of the receivers might have gotten open. A defender might have broken off to cover Orton's route. Those are facts. That's a fact whether it was first down or third down.

That said, I haven't seen much bashing of Orton over this play. It's barely been discussed on this board or on talk radio, so YOU are making a mountain out of a mole hill with your constant need to protect Orton.

At best, most of the talk about this play has been that people didn't like the play CALLED on first down.

Is there ANYTHING that posters on here do that you're ok with? Maybe you can start laying down the MO guidelines, so we can try and help make you comfortable.

I tried to have a serious discussion about this with you, since you made the effort to post the screen shots and urged me to be more conversational. I'm making every effort to do this with this thread, but this is getting a little ridiculous.

I don't know why you can't understand that this play was first down and that's why it's not talked about.

There were three plays AFTER this play called, that for some reason, you won't discuss, and I don't know why.

Orton isn't good enough to make those reads (is this what you want to hear?), and that's why he didn't make that play and Denver was forced to run three straight runs into the line.

Again, can we discuss fourth down? If your order to your quarterback is to throw it away on first, why are you not going for the conservative play call on fourth down, too? What changed in those four plays?

Tned
09-27-2011, 10:40 PM
I think the series of play calls was bad. Run it on first down, take the passing shot on 2nd or 3rd, maybe spread things out on at least one of the plays, and run from that -- maybe a toss.

I don't remember if I mentioned in this thread, but I also Tweeted during the game, as they took the time out, that I thought they should kick the FG and go up by 7, because the team hasn't been good enough at putting points on the board to risk the 3 points. Better to take the 7 point lead, and hope the defense holds them.

BORDERLINE
09-27-2011, 10:47 PM
I also want to add, the announcers of the game, don't know there names also took notice of Orton on screen plays.

They mentioned instead of doing a regular drop back pass on screen plays, He back peddles, therefore tipping off the play to the defense "if they even payed attention". Not Sure how important that is maybe it's all for nothing but little things like that can cause the Broncos to not be as effective on offense.

dogfish
09-27-2011, 10:48 PM
I think the series of play calls was bad. Run it on first down, take the passing shot on 2nd or 3rd, maybe spread things out on at least one of the plays, and run from that -- maybe a toss.

I don't remember if I mentioned in this thread, but I also Tweeted during the game, as they took the time out, that I thought they should kick the FG and go up by 7, because the team hasn't been good enough at putting points on the board to risk the 3 points. Better to take the 7 point lead, and hope the defense holds them.

better yet to put in the Wild Jesus package on first down, and get the seven. . .

BORDERLINE
09-27-2011, 10:56 PM
better yet to put in the Wild Jesus package on first down, and get the seven. . .

HAHAHA that always makes me laugh. Instead of Tebow screaming HIKE he screams Amen.

Tned
09-27-2011, 10:59 PM
FWIW, Vic Lombardi is going to telestrate that first and goal play and layout why it should have been an easy TD. Unfortunately, as an out of towner, I can't catch him on CBS in the next few minutes.

MOtorboat
09-27-2011, 11:04 PM
So, at any point can we discuss the actual issue, which is going for it on fourth down?

There were THREE plays after the down that you want to focus on. I'm baffled by this to be honest...and the only logical conclusion I can come to is a Kyle Orton hate fest.

dogfish
09-27-2011, 11:06 PM
MO, how much is top paying you?


:laugh:

Tned
09-27-2011, 11:20 PM
So, at any point can we discuss the actual issue, which is going for it on fourth down?

There were THREE plays after the down that you want to focus on. I'm baffled by this to be honest...and the only logical conclusion I can come to is a Kyle Orton hate fest.

Take a look at post #43, where I did exactly what you asked, but rather than discuss what I posted, you are just focused on telling us all how we are discussing it 'wrong.'

getlynched47
09-27-2011, 11:33 PM
FWIW, Vic Lombardi is going to telestrate that first and goal play and layout why it should have been an easy TD. Unfortunately, as an out of towner, I can't catch him on CBS in the next few minutes.

Just saw it.

There was absolutely ZERO pressure on Kyle Orton that play. He didn't take his time and allow the play to develop.

Oh, and Virgil Green was wide open :coffee:

Tned
09-27-2011, 11:34 PM
Just saw it.

There was absolutely ZERO pressure on Kyle Orton that play. He didn't take his time and allow the play to develop.

Oh, and Virgil Green was wide open :coffee:

What did Vic say he should do? Pass it? Run? Knit a sweater?

getlynched47
09-27-2011, 11:39 PM
What did Vic say he should do? Pass it? Run? Knit a sweater?

Vic showed the first 2 touchdown passes, which were executed well.

Kyle actually made the first one to Willis happen because he tricked the defender covering Willis into jumping an inside route, which allowed Willis to slip out in the flat.

Second one was lucky, because if the defender saw it coming, it was an easy interception.

For the goal-line fail, Kyle should've let the play develop and thrown it to Daniel Fells in the right corner of the endzone. Or, if he was competent, he would've seen the wide-open Virgil Green and gotten the touchdown. Maybe he was scared of the linebacker jumping the route, but the linebacker was focused on Spencer Larsen for some odd reason.

bcbronc
09-28-2011, 01:34 AM
Since you didn't have a chance to see the game, here's a couple screen grabs showing the pressure (or lack there of) when Orton threw it away, and the receiver on the left that he could have looked at.

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/orton_GL1.JPG

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/orton_GL2.JPG

I don't really see how you guys think Green is wide open on that play. It's like you don't even see the two NFL DBs standing just inside the goalline keying on the QB, or the third running underneath Green baiting the throw. The inside DB is already 2-3 yards into the 10 yard deep endzone, it would be a pretty elite throw to drop the ball over those DBs in a place where the rookie TE could make a play on the ball.

I think I read someone post Orton should have waited for the play to develop and Green to get open in the corner. The second screen shot clearly shows Green's pattern was an in, and there are at least 4 DBs/LBs spread across the goalline. On first down, there's zero reason to try to thread a ball into one of those seams...Peyton Manning tried something like that in the Superbowl with New Orleans...didn't end well and Orton is no Manning.


I think The Denver Post reported that Orton has had seven passes knocked down in three games and that is the most by any QB in the league. He went to explain that because defenses know he will not scramble they simple raise there hands and hope they get lucky.

Now if Orton where to move a bit and those D-Linemen start putting up there hands guess who should have the upper hand at that time. The Offensive line should shove those dudes to the dirt since the D-Linemen is not engaged anymore with the Offensive Linemen. Orton is not a scrambler or anything remote to it, therefore the Linemen has some shot at knocking it down.

Makes sense. I don't really think Orton has the ability to change deliveries to open up passing lanes either.


Tebow, or most QB's, would have rolled right and let that TE in the back work open. Tebow, or other mobile QB, might have also taken off to the left.

Again, that TE in the back wasn't going to be able to work open. What would some non-mobile QBs have done? QBs like Manning, Rivers, Brees, Brady would have all done exactly what Orton did on that play. Tennessee called the right defense, it's that simple. Throw it away and score on 2nd down instead.


your right. What gets me worked up is that given how badly we are in the redzone we would still call a play that is contingent on only one guy being open. A throw away down when we are not good in the redzone.

We can't afford to throw away downs.

It's not a throw away down. Every week you see a wide-open TE score in the corner off a play fake. It's the same play, except it worked. It can't work if you don't try it.

edit: it's also not contingent on just one guy being open. There's three options, Green coming across the back of the endzone, Larsen in the flats and someone flagging to the back corner. All were covered, c'est la vie.

1st and 2nd down calls were fine...poorly executed, but fine. 3rd and 4th down calls were not fine. at all.

MOtorboat
09-28-2011, 07:40 AM
MO, how much is top paying you?


:laugh:

I wish I was getting paid.

I guess, I'm more concerned with the running game in the red zone, and not being able to get enough push up front for three straight plays. McCoy probably should have just spread it out, after all Orton already had two red zone passing touchdowns in the game...

And I don't like the decision to go for it and not go up by seven.

Mike
09-28-2011, 07:48 AM
I wish I was getting paid.

I guess, I'm more concerned with the running game in the red zone, and not being able to get enough push up front for three straight plays. McCoy probably should have just spread it out, after all Orton already had two red zone passing touchdowns in the game...

And I don't like the decision to go for it and not go up by seven.

You want the run game to work in the RZ? Put Tebow in. For freak sake the kid was gold inside the 10 yardline last year. Someone can look up the stats, but I am pretty sure that he scored 6 every time the Broncos got within the 10.

Tned
09-28-2011, 07:51 AM
Again, that TE in the back wasn't going to be able to work open. What would some non-mobile QBs have done? QBs like Manning, Rivers, Brees, Brady would have all done exactly what Orton did on that play. Tennessee called the right defense, it's that simple. Throw it away and score on 2nd down instead.


The screen shots don't do full justice to the play. As Getlynched described, Vic Lombardi broke down the play on the telestrator last night where it would be much more clear than this.

As to those QB's you mentioned, for you to say they would have done the exact same thing, then clearly you haven't seen the play and need to try and find video of it and watch it.

They may very well have 'eventually' thrown the ball away, they would not have thrown the ball away with zero pressure, three rushers on the ground, and no other defender within 20' of them.


I wish I was getting paid.

I guess, I'm more concerned with the running game in the red zone, and not being able to get enough push up front for three straight plays. McCoy probably should have just spread it out, after all Orton already had two red zone passing touchdowns in the game...

And I don't like the decision to go for it and not go up by seven.

As I've said, I also don't like the decision to go for it. I also don't like the play calling. I don't like the order of the play calling. I don't like the pass call from the jumbo package. I don't like that they used the "we should be able to get a yard when we need it" as the reason for going for it and justification for going for it.

This team has not shown that it can get the tough yard up the middle. There is serious doubt if Walton and Beadles can create an opening in that situation, not to mention that in this case it sounds like Kuper made a mistake.

MOtorboat
09-28-2011, 08:00 AM
You want the run game to work in the RZ? Put Tebow in. For freak sake the kid was gold inside the 10 yardline last year. Someone can look up the stats, but I am pretty sure that he scored 6 every time the Broncos got within the 10.

Can he replace Beadles at G?

Mike
09-28-2011, 08:04 AM
Can he replace Beadles at G?

Beadles was in the games last year when Tebow was playing and it didn't seem to stop the Broncos from scoring.

BORDERLINE
09-28-2011, 02:30 PM
It's not a throw away down. Every week you see a wide-open TE score in the corner off a play fake. It's the same play, except it worked. It can't work if you don't try it.

I Have to disagree he had absolutely no pressure. I understand when a D-Linemen is gonna come in and lay him out and he just chucks it, if there is a corner blitz that does not get picked up. But Orton was not under pressure. When we suck as bad as we do in the redzone we can't afford to throw it away like that, then again that's why we are so bad in the redzone. By Orton doing that we all witnessed why he is dubbed a Game Manager. This team lacks talent and therefore cannot sustain a Game Manager and need some F'N talent at the QB position.

BigDaddyBronco
09-28-2011, 02:46 PM
You want the run game to work in the RZ? Put Tebow in. For freak sake the kid was gold inside the 10 yardline last year. Someone can look up the stats, but I am pretty sure that he scored 6 every time the Broncos got within the 10.

Just the threat of Tebow running it makes it easier for the RB to score. They know Orton will not roll out or even buy himself some time scrabling around, so it makes it easier for the defense to load the line and have the secondary look for the pass.

And, yes MO, the OLine can't get any push. Same problems we have had for the last 10 years. Orlando Franklin at 330 is probably the biggest lineman we have ever had. The whole interior of the line is 305. The Titans nose tackle Shaun Smith is 325, but the rest of their guys are listed below 300. So size isn't the only thing, but if you lack talent size can help.

Slick
09-28-2011, 02:58 PM
seriously, quit poosyfooting around and get the Wild Jesus formation out there when we're on the two stinkin' yardline. . . stat!






:noidea:


IF you're going to insist on starting kyle orton, the ONLY justification is that you're trying to make the playoffs as long as you're mathematically in it. . . whether orton actually gives you the best chance is a COMPLETELY different topic and irrelevant here-- the point is, that's their reasoning. . . but if that's how it's going to be. . . if you're going to play joe mays over nate irving, and start goodman over vaughn, start fells over virgil green and dawk over Q carter, etc etc. . . then you damn well better sell all the way out and make your absolute best effort at it. . .

getting the taste of some victory is a very positive experience for a young group-- banging your head against the wall while your "veteran leader" literally drops the ball doesn't do anything good for anybody. . . AND it makes the natives insanely restless as well. . . they need to friggin' decide which of these things they want to do, and then commit to doing it. . . quit playing ****ing politics with the quarter back situation and worry about winning the mother****ing GAME!

even halfwits like herm edwards and josh mcdaniels can grasp that concept. . . come on. . .

i don't care whether they're worried about tebow's contract escalaors or orton's ego, or just too stubborn to appear to bow to fan pressure. . . can the fainting goat and human cannonball act, and get the relentless and unpredictable triple threat on the field. . . how many goal line opportunities did we convert with that package last year? a damn bit better than we are this year, for sure. . .

just don't tell me we're "going with what gives us the best chance to win" and then refuse to go with the formation that converted red zone chances at by far the highest clip just last year. . . with most of the same personnel. . . under the same gatdamn O-coordinator, you infuriating jackasses! it's right in the damn playbook from last year-- along with the brutally overused chuck-it-deep-to-lloyd and bubble screen that should also get dug out before next week. . .


but if you aren't going to actually do everything you can to win, then let all the kids play instead of just the top few draft picks. . .


or are mario haggan and andre goodman the guys we're "building for the future with?"

you can't have it both ways. . . losing while getting invaluable live game reps for young guys that have a chance of being here more than another year or so is acceptable because it has legitimate potential to pay dividends in the foreseeable future-- losing with pointless stopgaps like kyle orton, joe mays and willis mcgahee is just a soul-stomping pile of ****ing fail. . .

bah. . . total exercise in futility, seriously. . . we can't lose to the damn raiders with irving in there instead of dead-end mays? i apologize for the rambling and ranting, but what the hell is the direction of this franchise? i at least see some modestly encouraging early returns on the return to defensive respectability, but that is about it-- and that first step in the dreaded five-year program (ask KC fans!) is far from enough in a league that has featured some overnight worst-to-first turnarounds. . .

just figure out how to put the ball in the damn endzone-- it's one of the most basic, fundamental aspects of your jobs, stop getting cute and use the bludgeon laying right there by your feet. . .


alright, sorry. . . i'm done. . .


SMH

Quoting this post for it's awesomeness.

Magnificent Seven
09-28-2011, 03:18 PM
How about they put Tebow in the red zone and bring Brodrick Bunkley in as a fullback! Willis McGahee is behind Bunkley. Raging Bulls! :beer:

bcbronc
09-28-2011, 07:25 PM
The screen shots don't do full justice to the play. As Getlynched described, Vic Lombardi broke down the play on the telestrator last night where it would be much more clear than this.

As to those QB's you mentioned, for you to say they would have done the exact same thing, then clearly you haven't seen the play and need to try and find video of it and watch it.

They may very well have 'eventually' thrown the ball away, they would not have thrown the ball away with zero pressure, three rushers on the ground, and no other defender within 20' of them.


sorry, I have seen the play. Saw it when it happened, and seen it a handful of times since then. I didn't see Lombardi break down the play, but not sure what he could really say about that play.

Tennessee had 7 guys dropped into zone, spread across the length of the endzone. The Broncos sent out three receivers. Yes, he had time, but in the NFL time disappears in a jiffy. Other than a turnover from trying to force a pass into a tight seam in the zone, the worst thing Orton could do would be to take a sack. 2nd and goal from the 2 is much better than 2nd and goal from the seven.

you can claim Brady or Manning etc would have just sat back there and waited, waited, waited, but you're wrong. They read the defense and react to that, not the specifics of a pass rusher getting knocked down. Tenn called the perfect defense for that play, and all the best QBs in the world are going to read that and get rid of the ball before there's the chance of a sack or forced fumble etc. Sure, maybe Mike Vick or Aaron Rodgers extend the play and try to make something happen with their legs. But that's obviously not Orton's game, so why would he try to do something stupid on first down?

Orton does plenty each and every game that is deserving of criticism. Throwing the ball away on 1st and goal from the 2 instead of trying to force a pass or do something outside his abilities isn't one of them.


I Have to disagree he had absolutely no pressure. I understand when a D-Linemen is gonna come in and lay him out and he just chucks it, if there is a corner blitz that does not get picked up. But Orton was not under pressure. When we suck as bad as we do in the redzone we can't afford to throw it away like that, then again that's why we are so bad in the redzone. By Orton doing that we all witnessed why he is dubbed a Game Manager. This team lacks talent and therefore cannot sustain a Game Manager and need some F'N talent at the QB position.

Orton being a game manager and the team lacking talent is irrelevant to this specific play. It's great to say he had no pressure, but again, he had three receivers trying to get open in the endzone (and same side of the endzone to boot) vs 7 DBs/LBs. Everyone that's watched football for more than a season has seen a young QB in a situation exactly like that who tries to force a pass, doesn't see a defender underneath, and either the ball goes the other way or the other QB takes possession at the 20.

Even saying a mobile Qb would have done something different doesn't necessarily hold up. Look at the screen shot, defenders lined up along the goalline reading the QB. As soon as the Qb leaves the pocket, someone is going to be attacking him. Sure, a Qb like Vick or Elway or even Big Ben may be able to draw a defender and then if someone finds the vacant spot in the zone, hit him. But A. I don't have a ton of confidence in Green, Fells or Spencer Larson reading that and finding the soft spot, and B. I have zero confidence in Orton's ability to make that kind of play, especially in the confined quarters of the endzone.

With Orton as QB, the only thing that happens if he tries to extend that play is bad stuff: sacks, forced fumbles, or picks. People need to understand, Orton isn't looking at the pass rushers, he's reading the defense. He's not looking to see if they've been knocked down or not, he's not sitting their waiting to see if the blocking holds up. He's reading the defense, sees they called the right coverage, and makes the safe, smart play. Just like the best QBs in the world do each and every week in that same situation.

dogfish
09-29-2011, 01:19 AM
okay, i'm gonna ask you basically the same thing i just asked MO. . .

is kyle orton really worth all that typing?



:defense:


man, i just hope next year they make a decisive move at the QB position in particular-- and in general, give us a little more to have positive discussion about than just getting a good player with a top-five pick. . . i think everyone knows i already have my complaints, but next year's really the proving ground, IMO. . . gotta give them a year to start getting things straightened out, especially with the lockout and the mess that dumbass left 'em-- but i won't find myself very forgiving if we don't see more significant and unmistakable signs of legit improvement. . .

i would typically try to be more patient, but as far as i'm concerned we've been rebuilding basically since shenanigans replaced plummer with cutler mid-season. . . and i didn't even mind that move. . . that season was trash anyway-- i was okay with missing the playoffs to get started building a legit contender around some players with actual physical skills and upside for the first time in forever. . . just too bad mike was so stubborn and inept with the defense, and bowlen ran out of patience. . . bob ****ing slowick essentially set us back five years and very much counting. . .

sooo. . . i think denver fans should absolutely be forgiven if we aren't interested in the prospects of a karl peterson-style five year plan. . . a year or two, sure. . . and i'm willing to accept reasonable progress-- it's not like it has to be a super bowl or something. . . being in the playoff race at least to the end of the season is a very fair minimum expectation for next year, IMO. . .

hell, i'll even take a bad season if we start a rookie QB-- as long as we added a couple hosses on the lines, whether draft or free agency. . . playing through youthful mistakes while a talented team grows is just fine. . .

treading water with the same ol' scrub, vet re-treads sucks, and most ****ing certainly should NOT be accepted as a "plan" by denver fans. . .

i've never been in favor of churning either the FO or the roster, nobody likes that. . . but by the same token, letting a weak regime run things four or five years doesn't help either. . . what you really want is to let bowlen know that the low-rent hacks are unacceptable, so that he finally gets it through his head that he can't fool people for long any more with rhetoric and promises in press conferences. . . you hope he figures it out and hires some better people the next time. . .

specifically, give elway a more experienced and talented personnel exec next year. . . and fire mike mccoy by executive order, and let fox know he of course gets to choose his own coordinator, but he's expected to get someone more competent and dynamic than mccoy. . . you can't pick his staff-- but i think ownership is more than within their rights to let him know that this feeble and gutless type of offense isn't going to allow him to keep his job for very long, so make a good choice this time. . .

systems are even more important than coaches in some ways. . . you notice how tomlin kept the 34 when he went to pitt, even though he was a tampa-2 guy? yea. . . we need that. . . just like jackass mcdaniels SHOULD have kept our existing ZBS fully intact. . . meddling with the strength of the team killed his chances just like bobby petrino when he did the exact same thing in atlanta. . . we need to get some good coordinators and position coaches in here-- then you leave them alone for a number of years, and let them do their thing. . .

dogfish
09-29-2011, 01:21 AM
Quoting this post for it's awesomeness.

thanks, sweetcheeks. . . .


:defense:

BigDaddyBronco
09-29-2011, 09:58 AM
I'm big on the system thing. That is one of the reasons I liked Shanny so much. The ZBS system allowed him to find OLine and Rb's deep in the draft. If he ever would have had a good defensive system and soemone with the ability to draft for it, he would still be the coach.

EFX obviously inherited a mess, but I don't see yet where they are bringing in guys for a specific system, more of just trying to improve talent across the board. I don't know how well that will work with the current salary cap structure. It might just leave us with big holes in the team as so much money is tied up in Doom, DJ, and Champ.

Time will tell.

BORDERLINE
09-30-2011, 12:12 AM
Orton being a game manager and the team lacking talent is irrelevant to this specific play. It's great to say he had no pressure, but again, he had three receivers trying to get open in the endzone (and same side of the endzone to boot) vs 7 DBs/LBs. Everyone that's watched football for more than a season has seen a young QB in a situation exactly like that who tries to force a pass, doesn't see a defender underneath, and either the ball goes the other way or the other QB takes possession at the 20.

Even saying a mobile Qb would have done something different doesn't necessarily hold up. Look at the screen shot, defenders lined up along the goalline reading the QB. As soon as the Qb leaves the pocket, someone is going to be attacking him. Sure, a Qb like Vick or Elway or even Big Ben may be able to draw a defender and then if someone finds the vacant spot in the zone, hit him. But A. I don't have a ton of confidence in Green, Fells or Spencer Larson reading that and finding the soft spot, and B. I have zero confidence in Orton's ability to make that kind of play, especially in the confined quarters of the endzone.

With Orton as QB, the only thing that happens if he tries to extend that play is bad stuff: sacks, forced fumbles, or picks. People need to understand, Orton isn't looking at the pass rushers, he's reading the defense. He's not looking to see if they've been knocked down or not, he's not sitting their waiting to see if the blocking holds up. He's reading the defense, sees they called the right coverage, and makes the safe, smart play. Just like the best QBs in the world do each and every week in that same situation.


How is a team that can't get 4 yards on 4 downs not signal lack of talent. I understand you view of Orton I get it. He is reading the defense. When he tries to extend plays nothing but bad things happens. All I'm trying to say is this team struggles in the redzone and those kind of plays where Orton has no pressure should not be thrown away in that manner. He could wait until one of his receivers, TE , RB get's open and or if a defender I coming then I have no qualms about throwing it away. Big Ben would have used his legs to free someone up or run it his damn self there was room. I honestly don't know how you can defend Orton and then go on to say he makes the smart, safe play just like the best QB's in the world. Well at least he does something that the best QB's in the world do.

Joel
09-30-2011, 01:56 AM
I'm big on the system thing. That is one of the reasons I liked Shanny so much. The ZBS system allowed him to find OLine and Rb's deep in the draft. If he ever would have had a good defensive system and soemone with the ability to draft for it, he would still be the coach.

EFX obviously inherited a mess, but I don't see yet where they are bringing in guys for a specific system, more of just trying to improve talent across the board. I don't know how well that will work with the current salary cap structure. It might just leave us with big holes in the team as so much money is tied up in Doom, DJ, and Champ.

Time will tell.
The importance of systems depends on roster talent. With lots of talent you can run many different systems; the one the coach knows best probably IS best. However, the less talent you have the more you need a system that plays to strengths and minimizes weaknesses. Part of our problem is we have too many of the latter and not enough of the former, so the only system that would help us is "apply for NCAA admission."

The best coaches aren't married to (and thus dependent on) a system though. Good coaches have experience with and can run many systems. Parcells won two Super Bowls in NY with a 4-3, power running and an accurate but unremarkable game managing QB who didn't make mistakes; in Dallas he made a defunct franchise into a perennial playoff team by putting in a 3-4 and finding gunslingers to throw at big name receivers. Notice how, even though he always ran a 4-3 in Denver, Shanahan has NOT installed one in Washington: They're built to run a 3-4 and he's a good enough coach that he knows that and also knows how to run a 3-4.

One big downside of hiring a first time head coach five years younger than me is that he's liable to throw out even your best players and try to install the one or two systems he knows, taking you from a bubble team to a total rebuild. Some had said for years that Denver should go 3-4, but couldn't dispute the rebuttal that we lacked the personnel; McDaniels did it anyway. Now no system will help us, but, conversely, we can adapt through the draft and free agency to any system any coach wants. If Fox wants a D first, power run team, he's got the draft position to hand pick the players for it if he's smart enough to spot them.

The SMART thing (which we seem to be doing) is using high draft picks we can expect the next few seasons to get the best all around players. Then we can run many systems well so we're restricted to none. That's where a good FO is more important than a good coach. The coach can be garbage, but when that becomes clear and you replace him you'll start making playoff runs if you've been building up talent. It won't even matter if the new coach has a wholly different system, because your ample talent will make you effective in that system also (though, ideally, the next coach has the experience to both identify and execute the BEST system for YOUR talent.)

The one thing certain at every level of football though is that one dimensional teams are predictable teams who get the snot pounded out of them. The only system I'm interested in is the one that suits the teams abilities.

MOtorboat
09-30-2011, 07:00 AM
I'm big on the system thing. That is one of the reasons I liked Shanny so much. The ZBS system allowed him to find OLine and Rb's deep in the draft. If he ever would have had a good defensive system and soemone with the ability to draft for it, he would still be the coach.

EFX obviously inherited a mess, but I don't see yet where they are bringing in guys for a specific system, more of just trying to improve talent across the board. I don't know how well that will work with the current salary cap structure. It might just leave us with big holes in the team as so much money is tied up in Doom, DJ, and Champ.

Time will tell.

Fox is Mike Krzyzewski. 'Play great defense and I don't care what offense you run...'

Hop...I heard Sandy Clough break it down pretty well about that play and basically how insignificant it was, yet that seems to be the focus...paraphrasing...

Even the media has been fixated on a first down throwaway that's much like plays that most great quarterbacks get commended for. Throw it away and live for second and third down. Almost the entire post-game Fox press conference was focused on that first down throwaway, and not a single media member asked a question about the game ending interception, or the interception earlier in the game. Yet those two plays have a much more significant impact on the outcome of the game.

HORSEPOWER 56
09-30-2011, 12:07 PM
Even the media has been fixated on a first down throwaway that's much like plays that most great quarterbacks get commended for. Throw it away and live for second and third down. Almost the entire post-game Fox press conference was focused on that first down throwaway, and not a single media member asked a question about the game ending interception, or the interception earlier in the game. Yet those two plays have a much more significant impact on the outcome of the game.

The key isn't that he threw the ball away MO, as debated I don't know how many times in this thread, it's that he didn't attempt to make a play when the initial play wasn't immediately there. He didn't even look at another potential eligible receiver, didn't try to buy any time for a receiver to uncover, didn't attempt to run it in himself... he just threw it away with no pressure on him at all. I understand that sometimes a throw away is a good call, but Orton throws the ball away in the redzone ALL THE TIME, I'd be willing to bet more than any other QB. Sure, it cuts down on RZ turnovers, but it also cuts down on RZ points.

Sometimes, guys just have to make plays that aren't exactly as called in the playbook to score points and win games. If Roethlisberger just ran the plays as written, he'd be the most sacked QB in the league and the Steelers never would've won a Superbowl this decade. Orton NEVER does this.

MOtorboat
09-30-2011, 12:37 PM
The key isn't that he threw the ball away MO, as debated I don't know how many times in this thread, it's that he didn't attempt to make a play when the initial play wasn't immediately there. He didn't even look at another potential eligible receiver, didn't try to buy any time for a receiver to uncover, didn't attempt to run it in himself... he just threw it away with no pressure on him at all. I understand that sometimes a throw away is a good call, but Orton throws the ball away in the redzone ALL THE TIME, I'd be willing to bet more than any other QB. Sure, it cuts down on RZ turnovers, but it also cuts down on RZ points.

Sometimes, guys just have to make plays that aren't exactly as called in the playbook to score points and win games. If Roethlisberger just ran the plays as written, he'd be the most sacked QB in the league and the Steelers never would've won a Superbowl this decade. Orton NEVER does this.

It was first down. Had it been third down, or fourth down, then yes. Because it was first down and there were THREE more plays after it, its completely inconsequential to the outcome of the game.

What was consequential to the outcome of the game was the poor decision to go for it on fourth down and the poor play call on fourth down and the poor decision by McGahee to try to improvise (which, ironically you're asking Orton to do on first down) and try to cut the ball back over part of offensive line he reportedly wasn't supposed to run behind.

Also consequential to the outcome of the game: Kyle Orton's interception to end the game.

Northman
09-30-2011, 12:40 PM
It was first down. Had it been third down, or fourth down, then yes. Because it was first down and there were THREE more plays after it, its completely inconsequential to the outcome of the game.

What was consequential to the outcome of the game was the poor decision to go for it on fourth down and the poor play call on fourth down and the poor decision by McGahee to try to improvise (which, ironically you're asking Orton to do on first down) and try to cut the ball back over part of offensive line he reportedly wasn't supposed to run behind.

Also consequential to the outcome of the game: Kyle Orton's interception to end the game.


Yet, had that been Tebow throwing that pass away you would of said he didnt go through his progressions and reads right? :lol:

Ravage!!!
09-30-2011, 12:44 PM
Yet, had that been Tebow throwing that pass away you would of said he didnt go through his progressions and reads right? :lol:

Yeah.. thats a fair question for everyone.

But I ahve to agree with Mo on this on. That was a play that we see in teh NFL every sunday, by every QB. ITs first down...don't turn over, don't put the ball where it can even have a chance of it, and don't take a sack so that runs are eliminated from the call. Its a read, hit, or throw away. Can't ask Orton to improvise on 1st down and simply throw to someone when EVERYONE on the team knows its a "read and throw away" type of play.

If Orton would have success on a normal basis, then no one would be questioning. Its just that we are judging Orton on everything else we know about him.... lame. Right now, he's playing like Plummer did the season after we drafted Cutler..... like there is absolutely NO care in him whatsoever. Plummer pretty much gave up, and it feels thats the situation with Orton right now as well.

NightTerror218
09-30-2011, 02:44 PM
Yeah.. thats a fair question for everyone.

But I ahve to agree with Mo on this on. That was a play that we see in teh NFL every sunday, by every QB. ITs first down...don't turn over, don't put the ball where it can even have a chance of it, and don't take a sack so that runs are eliminated from the call. Its a read, hit, or throw away. Can't ask Orton to improvise on 1st down and simply throw to someone when EVERYONE on the team knows its a "read and throw away" type of play.

If Orton would have success on a normal basis, then no one would be questioning. Its just that we are judging Orton on everything else we know about him.... lame. Right now, he's playing like Plummer did the season after we drafted Cutler..... like there is absolutely NO care in him whatsoever. Plummer pretty much gave up, and it feels thats the situation with Orton right now as well.


I have to disagree because you are trying to get into the endzone to win. You dont throw it away knowing if you dont score you lose and you got plenty of time. If it was that dire to save time I understand throwing it away or when nothing it there at all and then you kick the FG. But since they went for it on 4th down....it was a horrible choice Orton made. They needed the TD not extra clock time.

MOtorboat
09-30-2011, 02:50 PM
I have to disagree because you are trying to get into the endzone to win. You dont throw it away knowing if you dont score you lose and you got plenty of time. If it was that dire to save time I understand throwing it away or when nothing it there at all and then you kick the FG. But since they went for it on 4th down....it was a horrible choice Orton made. They needed the TD not extra clock time.

Just think what you would have said if he had thrown a first down interception from the one yard line...

Again, these arguments all hold lots of weight if he had done it on third down. But he did it on first down. On first down, you do throw it away, especially because the Titans didn't bite on the fake and had eight covering two.

slim
09-30-2011, 02:51 PM
Just think what you would have said if he had thrown a first down interception from the one yard line...

Again, these arguments all hold lots of weight if he had done it on third down. But he did it on first down. On first down, you do throw it away, especially because the Titans didn't bite on the fake and had eight covering two.

He should have held the ball to see if somone came open.

It was a B.S. throwaway, IMO.

BORDERLINE
09-30-2011, 02:54 PM
Yet, had that been Tebow throwing that pass away you would of said he didnt go through his progressions and reads right? :lol:

can't high five you enough for this post:beer:

SpringsBroncoFan
09-30-2011, 03:21 PM
I have to disagree because you are trying to get into the endzone to win. You dont throw it away knowing if you dont score you lose and you got plenty of time. If it was that dire to save time I understand throwing it away or when nothing it there at all and then you kick the FG. But since they went for it on 4th down....it was a horrible choice Orton made. They needed the TD not extra clock time.

All QB's are told to throw it away like that on 1st down.

Only elite QB's are going to get away with NOT throwing the ball away after the 1st read on 1st down...

Any coach is just going to say "good job or nice try but they got you" to an elite QB... anybody else gets a new one ripped by the coach.

If you aren't elite, can't move around in a pocket like a Brees or hard to bring down like Ben then coaches want the QB to toss the ball away like that...

Watchthemiddle
09-30-2011, 03:39 PM
Yeah.. thats a fair question for everyone.

But I ahve to agree with Mo on this on. That was a play that we see in teh NFL every sunday, by every QB. ITs first down...don't turn over, don't put the ball where it can even have a chance of it, and don't take a sack so that runs are eliminated from the call. Its a read, hit, or throw away. Can't ask Orton to improvise on 1st down and simply throw to someone when EVERYONE on the team knows its a "read and throw away" type of play.

If Orton would have success on a normal basis, then no one would be questioning. Its just that we are judging Orton on everything else we know about him.... lame. Right now, he's playing like Plummer did the season after we drafted Cutler..... like there is absolutely NO care in him whatsoever. Plummer pretty much gave up, and it feels thats the situation with Orton right now as well.

Very interesting observation regarding Orton/Cutler/Plummer.

Orton needs to play for his next contract. It does seem like he is tanking a bit. I wouldn't say Plummer tanked, but as we all know now, he really didn't want to play football anymore. When Shanny and all of his brains drafted an overrated QB coming out of college after being one game away from the SB with a very good QB, I wouldn't want to play either.

I agree with you on that ORton might have hurt feelings after 1. The team tried to trade him....2. No team other than the Mighty Dolphins offered....3. He is still on the team with Tebow.

NightTerror218
09-30-2011, 04:11 PM
Just think what you would have said if he had thrown a first down interception from the one yard line...

Again, these arguments all hold lots of weight if he had done it on third down. But he did it on first down. On first down, you do throw it away, especially because the Titans didn't bite on the fake and had eight covering two.

You dont throw it away when you need to get a TD in the FORTH QUARTER unless time is almost gone and you need to save the clock. You wait till something happens or you adjust. He had no pressure, did not got threw more then 1 read.

If he threw interception then he made a dumb throw. If he had pressure and was running for life and threw it away 1 thing. If he was running for life and threw interception that would be another thing, dumb mistake on his part. But not letting a play develop is a waste of a down when need to score. He should have at least wasted game time so titans had less to work with but moving in pocket.

NightTerror218
09-30-2011, 04:12 PM
All QB's are told to throw it away like that on 1st down.

Only elite QB's are going to get away with NOT throwing the ball away after the 1st read on 1st down...

Any coach is just going to say "good job or nice try but they got you" to an elite QB... anybody else gets a new one ripped by the coach.

If you aren't elite, can't move around in a pocket like a Brees or hard to bring down like Ben then coaches want the QB to toss the ball away like that...

when there is no pressure and you can set up camp there to let a play develop?

bcbronc
09-30-2011, 04:32 PM
You dont throw it away when you need to get a TD in the FORTH QUARTER unless time is almost gone and you need to save the clock. You wait till something happens or you adjust. He had no pressure, did not got threw more then 1 read.


sheesh, we didn't NEED a TD, we were up by 4. A field goal would have given us a 7 point lead. A TD would have been better, for sure, which is all the more reason not to force a throw to one of 3 receivers vs 7 defenders, all on one side of the endzone.

seriously, this is such a non-issue play. I'm sure this will come off as rude and condescending, but anyone feeling Orton should have done something different on that play is only showing a lack of understanding for the sport. The play call is hoping Tenn will be calling some sort of run blitz with man coverage...when the guy covering the TE or the FB bite on the playaction, it leaves them wide open. A zone defense means all the PA does is give the defense time to get into their drops. Thus no open receiver, so throw the ball away. It really is a football 101 thing, and I'm really surprised so many are having such a hard time grasping it.

the real point worth discussing on this play is just how little respect for our running game Tenn had. Typically 1st down is the run down, and 2nd down you try a PA or spread the field etc. But even with the jumbo set on the field, Tenn brought four rushers and dropped everyone else into zone. For a team that wants to be a team that can pick up short yardage on the ground, that's pretty embarrassing.

Ravage!!!
09-30-2011, 04:36 PM
I have to disagree because you are trying to get into the endzone to win. You dont throw it away knowing if you dont score you lose and you got plenty of time. If it was that dire to save time I understand throwing it away or when nothing it there at all and then you kick the FG. But since they went for it on 4th down....it was a horrible choice Orton made. They needed the TD not extra clock time.

We were in the lead, and could have kicked the FG. You can't look BACK after all the plays are done, and say "since we didn't get it on fourth, he should have done x on first."

The play is so common in the NFL, its like an every game occurance. Its simply a pre-snap read and throw..... its that simple. I'm sorry you don't agree, but you would be wrong.

Ravage!!!
09-30-2011, 04:41 PM
Very interesting observation regarding Orton/Cutler/Plummer.

Orton needs to play for his next contract. It does seem like he is tanking a bit. I wouldn't say Plummer tanked, but as we all know now, he really didn't want to play football anymore. When Shanny and all of his brains drafted an overrated QB coming out of college after being one game away from the SB with a very good QB, I wouldn't want to play either.

I agree with you on that ORton might have hurt feelings after 1. The team tried to trade him....2. No team other than the Mighty Dolphins offered....3. He is still on the team with Tebow.

Plummer called it in because he knew he was being replaced...AGAIN. Its very simple. If your team doesn't have their franchise QB, they will draft until they get one. Plummer was NOT a franchise QB and proved in that AFC game against Pittsburgh just how much he doesn't like to study. It was embarrassing the reads he missed.

Cutler was the better player, and still is the better player. Plummer couldn't hack the fact that he was off to another team, and quit. Orton is in the same boat. Realizes that no matter what, he will be off to his third team. He's pretty much hung up his cleats, mentally.

Ravage!!!
09-30-2011, 04:47 PM
sheesh, we didn't NEED a TD, we were up by 4. A field goal would have given us a 7 point lead. A TD would have been better, for sure, which is all the more reason not to force a throw to one of 3 receivers vs 7 defenders, all on one side of the endzone.

seriously, this is such a non-issue play. I'm sure this will come off as rude and condescending, but anyone feeling Orton should have done something different on that play is only showing a lack of understanding for the sport. The play call is hoping Tenn will be calling some sort of run blitz with man coverage...when the guy covering the TE or the FB bite on the playaction, it leaves them wide open. A zone defense means all the PA does is give the defense time to get into their drops. Thus no open receiver, so throw the ball away. It really is a football 101 thing, and I'm really surprised so many are having such a hard time grasping it.

the real point worth discussing on this play is just how little respect for our running game Tenn had. Typically 1st down is the run down, and 2nd down you try a PA or spread the field etc. But even with the jumbo set on the field, Tenn brought four rushers and dropped everyone else into zone. For a team that wants to be a team that can pick up short yardage on the ground, that's pretty embarrassing.

Bingo on everything. Not all plays are designed for the QB to buy time and find the guy. Thats usually for deeper routes when you have a full field. The QB from the 1, on this play, scrambles to buy time.... and the OL is completely fooled because the play should have been done and dead in 1.5 seconds.

As bc pointed out.... it wasn't a "need the TD or lose" situation...ESPECAILLY on 1st down. It was.... play to score a TD, but we are in field goal range" mentality. Simple as that.

MOtorboat
09-30-2011, 04:52 PM
Bingo on everything. Not all plays are designed for the QB to buy time and find the guy. Thats usually for deeper routes when you have a full field. The QB from the 1, on this play, scrambles to buy time.... and the OL is completely fooled because the play should have been done and dead in 1.5 seconds.

As bc pointed out.... it wasn't a "need the TD or lose" situation...ESPECAILLY on 1st down. It was.... play to score a TD, but we are in field goal range" mentality. Simple as that.

Which is why its so baffling why Fox didn't order a FG and gave in (reportedly) to the line captain for a line that can't get a push to save their lives...

Joel
09-30-2011, 11:34 PM
Which is why its so baffling why Fox didn't order a FG and gave in (reportedly) to the line captain for a line that can't get a push to save their lives...
That remains the most disturbing thing about that series for me. In Foxs perfect world where Landry is king and Schottenheimer court jester, you kick the FG and take the TD lead on 4th down. Three of the four teams I like faced that decision last weekend:

1) After three failures on 1st and G from the 2, Denver skipped the FG and 7 point lead, tried one last time for the TD, got stuffed and lost by the FG they didn't kick.

2) Minnesota got a huge kick return late, a couple first downs, then went for it on 4th and short from the Detroit 13 instead of taking the FG; they lost by a FG in OT.

3) Dallas also had 1st and G from the 2, got stuffed three times and kicked a FG to pull within a point with <5:00 left; three minutes later they kicked the eventual game winner.

I'd run behind Kuper if I had to in that situation, too; he's the ony quality guard we have--but there's no way I don't take that FG, especially when I know our guards pretty much suck and give no surge because they're all smaller than all our tackles.