McCoy is the real problem...

[EastCoastBronco]

After witnessing what took place on the 1 yard line of the Tennessee Titans yesterday I have come to the conclusion that Orton is not the biggest problem with this offence. It's Mike McCoy. I've never seen a more stupid series of play calls in my life. It's a pretty established fact that I've got no use for Orton but I can't blame him for terrible, incompetent red zone play calling...

Discuss...

[claymore]

After witnessing what took place on the 1 yard line of the Tennessee Titans yesterday I have come to the conclusion that Orton is not the biggest problem with this offence. It's Mike McCoy. I've never seen a more stupid series of play calls in my life. It's a pretty established fact that I've got no use for Orton but I can't blame him for terrible, incompetent red zone play calling...

Discuss...

Hell yeah. We need a new Offense and OC. As much as I want to draft a QB early next year, I dont want the current Jabrones ruining him.

I also would like a new RB coach and line coach and . As much as I like Studsville, I think he sucks as a rb coach.

[Tned]

It seems to be a belief (based on Fox's, and some of the player's, comments) that they feel they should be able to move the defensive line in a head to head matchup, to get one yard when you need it.

While I agree you "should" be able to, there is nothing we've seen that indicates this line can, so why call three more or less identical runs that all had basically the same result.

[EastCoastBronco]

I would love to be a fly on the wall and have heard what Fox said to McCoy after that game. I realize Fox was the one who made the call to go for it on 4th down but 5 or 6 run plays in a row? That's on McCoy.
This is shaping up to be a very frustrating season..especially with the defence improving the way it has been...

[UnderArmour]

I really wish we'd kept Ben McDaniels on as QB coach. He did a good job coaching up Tebow last year in the last 3 games but Fox felt the need to give his buddy's brother a promotion. That way we could have just fired McCoy and promoted McDaniels to OC. Then again, I'm only basing it off what I saw from Tebow's play the last 3 games of last year and the reviews he got along with the horrid QB play this year. I'm going out on a limb here, but based on what I've seen this year so far I think he would have been a better option. Agree or disagree, I think by the end of the year he knew what he was doing with the QBs.

Also not putting Tebow in on red zone plays? Josh knew that Orton wasn't any good in first and goal. He realized our offensive line simply can't win goal line battles and started putting Tebow in. There is no good excuse to keep Tebow out of the game in the red zone. None. This offensive coaching staff is a joke for keeping our best red zone threat on the bench when we need him. Defenses just can't stop Tebow from running or throwing for 4 yards or less near the goal line. They can't. Orton is not scaring anyone on 3rd and goal. It's time for some creativity. I don't care if "OH WELL ORTON DOES IT WELL IN PRACTICE!!!" if he can't do it in the freaking game: when it matters. Regardless of who starts, don't play this whole political game of "IF WE PLAY TEBOW THEN THE FANS MIGHT WANT HIM TO PLAY MORE!" when the job of a coach is to make sure the team wins the mother ******* ball game. The fan base will never get behind Orton again unless he wins ball games. Orton isn't going to win ball games on first and goal, 2nd and goal, 3rd and goal, or 4th and goal so get him out of there and just put Tebow in on red zone plays. It isn't rocket science.

I don't mind having the check downs as available options to Orton, but there just isn't enough effort to go deep to Lloyd. Throwing Lloyd a ball and expecting him to get YAC is stupid. He isn't a "make plays in space" type player; he can't catch ordinary passes. Lloyd only catches balls that are impossible to catch so he can boost his own highlight reel. Throw it to him past the yard marker and stop using him as a decoy. Throw it to him 40 yards down field at the sidelines. He'll catch it. He's obsessed with doing his little "you can't see me thing." He is right though, we can't see him at all because he isn't doing shit when he is out there.

tl;dr: Throw the ball to Lloyd. Put Tebow in on red zone plays AT THE LEAST. Lastly and most importantly, WIN THE MOTHER ******* BALL GAME. What the coaching staff is doing just isn't working.

[BigSarge87]

Meh. Hindsight on this one is a bitch. Had they gone play action and watched orton throw it into the stands we would have been ragging on him too.

I'm glad they had the balls to go for it. It just backfired on this one.

[BroncoStud]

McCoy has been terrible this season - so far.

I wasn't impressed with him last year either though. The redzone playcalling is pretty bad. There is just getting around this, I hate our offense. I can't stand Orton, I can't stand McCoy, and it's brutal to watch.

Fox is doing good things with the defense but the offense is putrid.

[TXBRONC]

It seems to be a belief (based on Fox's, and some of the player's, comments) that they feel they should be able to move the defensive line in a head to head matchup, to get one yard when you need it.

While I agree you "should" be able to, there is nothing we've seen that indicates this line can, so why call three more or less identical runs that all had basically the same result.

I just got done reading Woody Paige's article on the game. In it there is a comment by McGahee where he's asked if that last rushing attempt on the goal line was suppose to go over center. He said no it was suppose to go to the right over where our two best run blockers are.


Woody Paige: One yard, so many arguments
By Woody Paige
The Denver Post
Posted: 09/26/2011 01:00:00 AM

When we were alone, I asked him: "Was that play supposed to go over center?"

McGahee paused.

McGahee finally told me: "The play was to run at right guard. Everybody has to be on the same page. That's all I'm going to say about that."

http://www.denverpost.com/paige/ci_18977269

NB: I cut out part of the answer which was rehash of what happened on the three previous plays.

So with all due respect ECB I don't think McCoy is the problem.

[SOCALORADO.]

I just got done reading Woody Paige's article on the game. In it there is a comment by McGahee where he's asked if that last rushing attempt on the goal line was suppose to go over center. He said no it was suppose to go to the right over where our two best run blockers are.



NB: I cut out part of the answer which was rehash of what happened on the three previous plays.

So with all due respect ECB I don't think McCoy is the problem.

Its lack of talent. This team sucks ass. How any of you (not you TEX) thought that this team was somehow going to go 9-7 or better is just laughable.
Theres also NO depth whatsoever on this team as well. None.
Many, many of these players will be cut at seasons end.
This is a rebuild, folks. Just sit back, enjoy the NFL as a total sport for the year, and let Elway rebuild the team.

[MileHighCrew]

Meh. Hindsight on this one is a bitch. Had they gone play action and watched orton throw it into the stands we would have been ragging on him too.

I'm glad they had the balls to go for it. It just backfired on this one.

Balls to go for it? It was stupid to go for it. In a tight game up by 4 you kick it everytime.

[Northman]

Balls to go for it? It was stupid to go for it. In a tight game up by 4 you kick it everytime.

Meh, i liked the call. If we make that TD we probably win the game.

[vandammage13]

If McCoy had the green light from Fox to utilize Tebow's skills on the goaline then perhaps the playcalling would have been different.

I'm not a McCoy fan, but I imagine the playbook is very limited inside the 10 yard line with Orton under center...a long line of evidence shows that Orton is very limited on a short field.

McCoy is a problem, but I'm not sure how good any playcaller would do if they only had a QB with the redzone ability of a turd to work with. Given the personnel that was on the field at the time, handing off to McGahee is a higher percentage play than another Orton pass into the stands.

[BroncoStud]

Its lack of talent. This team sucks ass. How any of you (not you TEX) thought that this team was somehow going to go 9-7 or better is just laughable.
Theres also NO depth whatsoever on this team as well. None.
Many, many of these players will be cut at seasons end.
This is a rebuild, folks. Just sit back, enjoy the NFL as a total sport for the year, and let Elway rebuild the team.

That's the problem, what are we rebuilding? Miller is a good start but other than that I see the same crap faces out there on the field. It took a Royal injury to get Decker in the lineup. I have no problem with Fox going for it on that series, worst case scenario the Titans are backed up to their goalline. I do have a problem with the lack of creativity on offense and the lack of using talent that will help the Broncos win games. If you know that Tim Tebow is very good in the redzone and you fail to use him at the expense of the team, that is just bad coaching.

We know Mike McCoy has packages for Tebow, we saw them last year. I'm not sure what the malfunction is with John Fox and his dealings in this offense but it is hurting this team.

[SOCALORADO.]

Yeah!?!?! Why was there no gimmick play with TT down there at the goaline?
I swear i watched that guy throw a million 3 yard "jump passes" in college.
Would have been a perfect time to pull that one out of the garage.

[SOCALORADO.]

That's the problem, what are we rebuilding? Miller is a good start but other than that I see the same crap faces out there on the field. It took a Royal injury to get Decker in the lineup. I have no problem with Fox going for it on that series, worst case scenario the Titans are backed up to their goalline. I do have a problem with the lack of creativity on offense and the lack of using talent that will help the Broncos win games. If you know that Tim Tebow is very good in the redzone and you fail to use him at the expense of the team, that is just bad coaching.

We know Mike McCoy has packages for Tebow, we saw them last year. I'm not sure what the malfunction is with John Fox and his dealings in this offense but it is hurting this team.

DEN is playing with what they have, watching the young guys develop, and making decisions on who they should keep, and who gets dumped.
And if you cant even crack the starting line up, well consider yourself dumped.

[MileHighCrew]

Meh, i liked the call. If we make that TD we probably win the game.

Kick the FG and you have a better chance to win. That was not smart coaching, that was a show our team I believe in them coaching.

[vandammage13]

Kick the FG and you have a better chance to win. That was not smart coaching, that was a show our team I believe in them coaching.

Ehh...even with the FG we still would lose by four.

That means you still need an Orton TD for the win...which ain't happening.

Orton is a special case. If you get down to the 1 yard line you go for 7 because with Orton, chances are you aren't getting back down there until the next game.

[BroncoStud]

:laugh: LMAO, that's a good point. I wonder if the staff's overall mistrust of Orton in the 4th quarter is what led to Fox's decision to go for it?

[Northman]

Kick the FG and you have a better chance to win. That was not smart coaching, that was a show our team I believe in them coaching.

Disagree. Kick the FG and you play it safe sure. But get it in the endzone you show the team you believe in them to win ballgames. If they had made the TD would you still be second guessing it? I doubt it. I remember people saying the same thing a few years ago when instead of kicking a extra point to tie the Chargers Shanahan went for two for the win. If he misses people second guess it but we won and it was ballsy.

[The Glue Factory]

That's the problem, what are we rebuilding? Miller is a good start but other than that I see the same crap faces out there on the field. It took a Royal injury to get Decker in the lineup. I have no problem with Fox going for it on that series, worst case scenario the Titans are backed up to their goalline. I do have a problem with the lack of creativity on offense and the lack of using talent that will help the Broncos win games. If you know that Tim Tebow is very good in the redzone and you fail to use him at the expense of the team, that is just bad coaching.

We know Mike McCoy has packages for Tebow, we saw them last year. I'm not sure what the malfunction is with John Fox and his dealings in this offense but it is hurting this team.

And it took an injury to Lloyd for Orton to be broken of his lockon-itis problem. Some of the issues are coaching (Fox refusing to have Tebow do anything except emergency situations) and some are personnel (Orton's macabre mediocrity.)

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I refuse to blame the coaching staff for our failure to convert on 4th and goal. That's execution. Fox will establish a running game or die trying. If our offesive line and the players can't punch it into the endzone on 4 tries inside the 5, then they are the ones at fault.

Is it any wonder that the only game we've won we were able to run the ball and orton wasn't responsible for leading a comeback? The coaches KNOW that Orton cannot win games so they're trying to take the ball out of his hands and give him the help he so desperately needs to be even a marginal QB.

First, folks hate on them for not running the ball and "helping Orton out", then folks hate on them for not passing inside the 5 because they don't trust Orton not to just throw it away 3 straight times, take a sack, or get it batted down at the LOS. You can't have it both ways.

I have no problem with the 4th down call and I have no problem with the Broncos trying to establish a smash-mouth running game. For those of you who don't like it, why did the Bills beat the Patriots? Because the Pats had to respect Fred Jackson's running ability which made it easier for Fitzpatrick.

We are a banged up team that is devoid of some of our most talented players. We're a stinky football team. Did anyone expect more? Seriously, the same guys complaining about the team not winning right now are the same ones that complained about wanting to rebuild the right way. I think we're trying to rebuild the right way. It's going to take time, experience, and a couple of better players at some key positions. The coaching staff is still trying to make lemonade out of a bunch of lemons. After this year, they'll have a better grasp of where we stand and what we need to do. At least a couple of the rookies we drafted are living up to their draft status. That hasn't happened since '06...

[jlarsiii]

Ehh...even with the FG we still would lose by four.

That means you still need an Orton TD for the win...which ain't happening.

Orton is a special case. If you get down to the 1 yard line you go for 7 because with Orton, chances are you aren't getting back down there until the next game.

How do you figure we still lose by 4? If we kicked the field goal the score would have been 17-10 with us in the lead.

Then when they scored their last TD the game would have been tied. . .

Not sure about your logic here.

[I Eat Staples]

Mike McCoy should have been gone with McDouche. Watching his offense is ******* pathetic. With a defensive minded coach like Fox actually improving our defensive scheme, we need someone who isn't completely incompetent as an OC so we can actually score some damn points.

Oh, and I agree with North. I'd always go for it on 4th and goal from the 1. You have to play to win the game. It isn't the fault of the coaching staff that our O-Line can't get any push whatsoever.

[jhildebrand]

God! The excuses for Orton keep rolling in.

First it is the Defense.
Then the running game.
Then injuries.
Then game planning.

Now McCoy is the problem.

How is it when TT played, the o line looked better. The d looked better. The rb's looked better. McCoy looked better (save for the Oakland game when they wouldn't open up the playbook)? All the same units Orton had to work with.

At some point you look at it and say Orton IS the problem.

[NightTerror218]

Meh, i liked the call. If we make that TD we probably win the game.

Fox was probably just hoping to win instead of having Hasselbeck continue to beat us in OT. Since we were not going to win it with Orton.

[jhildebrand]

I refuse to blame the coaching staff for our failure to convert on 4th and goal. That's execution.

I have been making the same point!

People who support Orton and the old regime would say things like-"it isn't their fault the D dropped an int" or other excuses.

Fox played to win, and showed a lot of trust and confidence in his O, by going for it. I don't fault him for the O's failure.

I do question him not challenging whether McGahee scored. It sure looked like he had.

[Bosco]

McCoy has definitely been a problem, but I question how much of the blame for the offense lies at Fox's feet. Alot of the quotes from him over the offseason indicated that he might have a bigger hand in the offensive game planning than he should. I'd bet good money that he's handcuffed McCoy to a very conservative scheme.

[vandammage13]

How do you figure we still lose by 4? If we kicked the field goal the score would have been 17-10 with us in the lead.

Then when they scored their last TD the game would have been tied. . .

Not sure about your logic here.

Yeah...I forgot what the score was when that happened..

Kyle still would have found a way to lose it though, I'm sure.

[nevcraw]

I do like how the defense is shaping up. without Doom and Champ and they did a very good job yesteerday until the levy finally broke.

This offense looks like it should stay in the bi-gone era it came from. the only time even with FIF (fail in 4th) Orton they move the ball is when they spread it around and then mix in some runs, but the 3 yds in cloud of dust and INT's only put pressure on a hurting / zero depth over achieving D.

[silkamilkamonico]

Interesting that McGahee is indicating that the rookie Franklin is already a better run blocker than Clady.

I cannot stop continuing to emphasize just how much of a disappointment Ryan Clady is right now.

[silkamilkamonico]

I do like how the defense is shaping up. without Doom and Champ and they did a very good job yesteerday until the levy finally broke.

I do agree, but behind the curtains I think there are some issues.

The defense is headed in the right direction, but Champ continues to age and Dawkins is going to be done in the next couple of years. Dumerville is looking like someone who's body can't stay healthy with the rigors of the NFL game coming off his surgery, and there should be a real concern if he's ever going to be fully healthy for an extended period of time.

I don't care what anyone says about our dline. We still need a formidable DT, but both Vickerson and Bunkley are playing very well right now on a consistent basis.

[rcsodak]

I refuse to blame the coaching staff for our failure to convert on 4th and goal. That's execution. Fox will establish a running game or die trying. If our offesive line and the players can't punch it into the endzone on 4 tries inside the 5, then they are the ones at fault.

Is it any wonder that the only game we've won we were able to run the ball and orton wasn't responsible for leading a comeback? The coaches KNOW that Orton cannot win games so they're trying to take the ball out of his hands and give him the help he so desperately needs to be even a marginal QB.

First, folks hate on them for not running the ball and "helping Orton out", then folks hate on them for not passing inside the 5 because they don't trust Orton not to just throw it away 3 straight times, take a sack, or get it batted down at the LOS. You can't have it both ways.

I have no problem with the 4th down call and I have no problem with the Broncos trying to establish a smash-mouth running game. For those of you who don't like it, why did the Bills beat the Patriots? Because the Pats had to respect Fred Jackson's running ability which made it easier for Fitzpatrick.

We are a banged up team that is devoid of some of our most talented players. We're a stinky football team. Did anyone expect more? Seriously, the same guys complaining about the team not winning right now are the same ones that complained about wanting to rebuild the right way. I think we're trying to rebuild the right way. It's going to take time, experience, and a couple of better players at some key positions. The coaching staff is still trying to make lemonade out of a bunch of lemons. After this year, they'll have a better grasp of where we stand and what we need to do. At least a couple of the rookies we drafted are living up to their draft status. That hasn't happened since '06...
Well said.

People wanted them just to be competitve this year. They are. 2-3pt losses to 1st place teams.

Then, after losing a game some thought theyd lose anyway....but because it was close, are even more pissed. :laugh:

Willis-PS wr last yr
VGreen-rookie project
Lloyd≠100%
No Royal
Decker with 1 nice game on his resume?

Y'all really expected Tenn to be worried?

No doom
No champ
No DJ

Y'all expected the D to stop the pass?

I'll take close losses as long as the other team knows they were in a battle, and this team garners some respect.

Ps. Irony: winning TD caught by ex bronco te who couldnt catch a cold.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

a few things from article in regards to going for it on 4th down:


McGahee finally told me: "The play was to run at right guard. Everybody has to be on the same page. That's all I'm going to say about that."

"As fast as it was all happening, did you change your direction?" I asked.

"Didn't have time. It just ended up in the middle. That's all I'm going to say."

full article - http://www.denverpost.com/paige/ci_18977269

[Nomad]

Tebow would have jumped over everybody in for the touchdown!:elefant:

[slim]

a few things from article in regards to going for it on 4th down:



full article - http://www.denverpost.com/paige/ci_18977269

Nothing like throwing your OL under the bus.

I mean, we all know the OL can't run block...but McGahee doesn't need to be yapping about it.

[G_Money]

Interesting that McGahee is indicating that the rookie Franklin is already a better run blocker than Clady.

I cannot stop continuing to emphasize just how much of a disappointment Ryan Clady is right now.

Franklin is a guard playing tackle. He's huge, and should be a better run blocker. Clady has only ever played extremely well in the ZBS, which is what he ran in college and how he looked spectacular here. He kept I-hold-the-ball-for-10-seconds Jay Cutler's jersey immaculate. He got one block, then released for the 2nd block on screens and edge runs. He was terrific at zone, and still is very good when we run it.

But if you asked me which side I wanted to run to, I'd run behind the 50 million dollar man Chris Kuper and giant juggernaut Franklin rather than Clady and his partner and waste of space Beadles.

Nobody can carry Beadles. You've got to run the other way.

Run blocking the way we do it is not a skill, it's a matter of brute strength and leverage. Franklin has brute strength. Next year when we move him to LG and let him kill people next to Clady, we'll be running that was as well. No worries. We're just short-handed and under-talented right now.

~G

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Nothing like throwing your OL under the bus.

I mean, we all know the OL can't run block...but McGahee doesn't need to be yapping about it.

Maybe yes, maybe no, as far as what McGahee said. The reason I posted this here is because of the thread title - i.e. McCoy is the real problem. McCoy calls a play - and if it is not run correctly, that is not McCoy's fault.

[rcsodak]

Interesting that McGahee is indicating that the rookie Franklin is already a better run blocker than Clady.

I cannot stop continuing to emphasize just how much of a disappointment Ryan Clady is right now.
Ship him to kube or shanny for a D lineman.

[Jsteve01]

Beadles must go...our interior line is horribly weak.

[NightTerror218]

Beadles must go...our interior line is horribly weak.

He is a great....backup. We need depth anyways.

[G_Money]

Beadles should be a backup. He's no worse than most there. He'd be the best backup lineman we have, instead of the worst starter - that helps.

If we need to draft a QB, though, then we can't get an OT with that first pick, which would be my preference. There are some tackles that would be available in the high 2nd, I would think, and who could play RT for a RH QB (one of the reasons we need a tackle REALLY high if Tebow is QB is because Franklin is absolutely gonna get him murdered long-term if he's the blind-side protection).

But then that pushes our DT needs back down the list for the dozenth year in a row. The whole draft plays out better if Tebow isn't incompetent, especially since I don't think we'll be high enough to get Luck, and I'm not sold on Barkley or Landry yet.

Tebow's got the direct line to God, right? Have him put in a prayer for his success from me.

~G

[silkamilkamonico]

If we are going to draft oline in the first I would rather draft a LT which would then make Clady expendable, and we could look to trade him to a team running ZBS. That is best case scenario.

[Bosco]

Franklin is a guard playing tackle. He's huge, and should be a better run blocker. Clady has only ever played extremely well in the ZBS, which is what he ran in college and how he looked spectacular here. He kept I-hold-the-ball-for-10-seconds Jay Cutler's jersey immaculate. He got one block, then released for the 2nd block on screens and edge runs. He was terrific at zone, and still is very good when we run it.

But if you asked me which side I wanted to run to, I'd run behind the 50 million dollar man Chris Kuper and giant juggernaut Franklin rather than Clady and his partner and waste of space Beadles.

Nobody can carry Beadles. You've got to run the other way.

Run blocking the way we do it is not a skill, it's a matter of brute strength and leverage. Franklin has brute strength. Next year when we move him to LG and let him kill people next to Clady, we'll be running that was as well. No worries. We're just short-handed and under-talented right now.

~G

Not to mention that teams have historically preferred to run to the right (and usually strong side) of formations, so the better run blockers tend to play on that side.

[Tned]

Franklin is a guard playing tackle. He's huge, and should be a better run blocker. Clady has only ever played extremely well in the ZBS, which is what he ran in college and how he looked spectacular here. He kept I-hold-the-ball-for-10-seconds Jay Cutler's jersey immaculate. He got one block, then released for the 2nd block on screens and edge runs. He was terrific at zone, and still is very good when we run it.

But if you asked me which side I wanted to run to, I'd run behind the 50 million dollar man Chris Kuper and giant juggernaut Franklin rather than Clady and his partner and waste of space Beadles.

Nobody can carry Beadles. You've got to run the other way.

Run blocking the way we do it is not a skill, it's a matter of brute strength and leverage. Franklin has brute strength. Next year when we move him to LG and let him kill people next to Clady, we'll be running that was as well. No worries. We're just short-handed and under-talented right now.

~G

You really think they will move Franklin to guard? When they drafted him, they said his natural position was tackle, but that he could play guard. I guess if they think he's failing at the NFL level, they might change their mind.

[DenBronx]

Studesville is a likeable guy but he isnt that great of a RB coach. If this team does as bad as last year I can see an overhaul on the offense coming.

Royal will likely be traded. I see no point in keeping Larsen, yes he made a good catch last night but he isnt the bruising FB we need. McCoy is off the wall with his play calling, I just dont get most of his calls when the game is on the line.

I think we looking at a new OC and RB coach when the year ends. Possibly OL coach too. Then we need a better RB and QB.

The defense has been impressing me though. Not top 10 impressing but at least we can see glimpses of what is to come. Bunkley has been a beast! Miller looks more and more like the right decision. But were still a few pieces away.

Still alot of work for this team though.

[TXBRONC]

Studesville is a likeable guy but he isnt that great of a RB coach. If this team does as bad as last year I can see an overhaul on the offense coming.

Royal will likely be traded. I see no point in keeping Larsen, yes he made a good catch last night but he isnt the bruising FB we need. McCoy is off the wall with his play calling, I just dont get most of his calls when the game is on the line.

I think we looking at a new OC and RB coach when the year ends. Possibly OL coach too. Then we need a better RB and QB.

The defense has been impressing me though. Not top 10 impressing but at least we can see glimpses of what is to come. Bunkley has been a beast! Miller looks more and more like the right decision. But were still a few pieces away.

Still alot of work for this team though.

Better talent can make a coach look like a genius. Right now we don't we don't have a reallygood running back corps.

I honestly don't think McCoy's play calling is the problem. Execution by the players seems be the culprit to me.

[G_Money]

You really think they will move Franklin to guard? When they drafted him, they said his natural position was tackle, but that he could play guard. I guess if they think he's failing at the NFL level, they might change their mind.

Robert Gallery's "natural" position was tackle too, but he makes a better guard. Ditto Franklin, IMO. If it's to protect Tebow's blind side, then they are absolutely making a change. He's not a good enough pass protector for that, especially since Timmy holds the ball too low and too long. They'll get a true left tackle to do it, somebody smart and capable of the footwork changes needed to make a great left tackle into a great blind-side right tackle. It's potentially a good tackle year (depending on juniors), and could be great up top, where we'd be drafting. Kalil is the real deal, and Fox is VERY familiar with his brother (who I also wanted badly coming out of college).

If they go with a RH QB instead, then maybe we don't move Franklin next year, but I still think he's gonna move. We'll see. If it's Tebow behind him, then he's a guard - and I think our line is MUCH better for it. He's a potential monster in the run game, in a way even Kuper isn't.

Bookended by Franklin and Kuper, I could finally see if Walton's lapses are unavoidable or caused by the collapse happening on his left side on every other play. JD still strikes me as a very game center who fights hard and is willing to get dirty. He may be overmatched and destined for more of a backup role, or he may just not be able to carry Beadles like an anchor but can carry his own weight if allowed. I'd like to find out.

But Khalil is a good run blocker too. The trenches are where everything starts, and I'd love to keep our QB upright and have run-game stalwarts everywhere along the OL and THEN see what happens.

As long as that QB isn't Orton, anyway. I've seen that show before.

~G

[Tned]

Robert Gallery's "natural" position was tackle too, but he makes a better guard. Ditto Franklin, IMO. If it's to protect Tebow's blind side, then they are absolutely making a change. He's not a good enough pass protector for that, especially since Timmy holds the ball too low and too long. They'll get a true left tackle to do it, somebody smart and capable of the footwork changes needed to make a great left tackle into a great blind-side right tackle. It's potentially a good tackle year (depending on juniors), and could be great up top, where we'd be drafting. Kalil is the real deal, and Fox is VERY familiar with his brother (who I also wanted badly coming out of college).

If they go with a RH QB instead, then maybe we don't move Franklin next year, but I still think he's gonna move. We'll see. If it's Tebow behind him, then he's a guard - and I think our line is MUCH better for it. He's a potential monster in the run game, in a way even Kuper isn't.

Bookended by Franklin and Kuper, I could finally see if Walton's lapses are unavoidable or caused by the collapse happening on his left side on every other play. JD still strikes me as a very game center who fights hard and is willing to get dirty. He may be overmatched and destined for more of a backup role, or he may just not be able to carry Beadles like an anchor but can carry his own weight if allowed. I'd like to find out.

But Khalil is a good run blocker too. The trenches are where everything starts, and I'd love to keep our QB upright and have run-game stalwarts everywhere along the OL and THEN see what happens.

As long as that QB isn't Orton, anyway. I've seen that show before.

~G

He would be a monster of a Guard. If he was lining up next to Clady, we might actually be able to punch it in from the 1/2 yard line.

[Lancane]

Better talent can make a coach look like a genius. Right now we don't we don't have a reallygood running back corps.

I honestly don't think McCoy's play calling is the problem. Execution by the players seems be the culprit to me.

Sincerely, I have to disagree... Granted, talent can compensate for short comings as a coach, a great coach can develop talent from nothing, a bad coach can neither develop a scheme or instill a system to utilize greater talent - think about it TX, McCoy learned two variations of the same system from two of the worst coaches to utilize that system and is the only offense he knows in the whole of his career thus far, Dan Henning and then Josh McDaniels, one used the more general Erhardt-Perkins or the variant thereof and his offenses were horrible, almost downright awful. Josh McDaniels the other who used more of a Air-Erhardt variant, well look at his offenses since leaving New England...it's not like McCoy has proven to be anything more then those who taught him those two variants. He hasn't proven a lick of solid coaching ability since coming to Denver, and it's rather obvious. He's not the next Carmichael, Payton, Mularkey, Arians, Weiss or even Whisenhunt.

Yes, we have a lot of problems offensively regarding talent, but we also have a fair bit of talent that has not been used wisely either. We have a two-time all-pro left tackle, we have a steadfast right guard, the rest of the offensive line has been gathered via the draft and is steadily improving week in and week out, they're starting to gel as a unit, it's rather hard to come together when you have two sophomore lineman and a rookie gelling with two linemen who have been part of the same unit for years, we may have to replace one or two, but no one can not deny that the lockout hurt the line as a unit. Another thing I noticed is that we've started to use less and less of the zone and more of the man and the results are better. McCoy runs the offense in accordance with Fox's philosophy, it's as apparent as the lack of good coaches on the offensive side of the ball, hell...if anyone watched film on Royal they'd have realized he's better suited as a slot receiver or the Y position, not the in the X or Z positions. Lloyd should be the flank receiver with Decker at the split receiver spot, instead they didn't watch film or that's my opinion and should have kept Royal at the slot where he's the most dangerous. That's not on Fox, everything is on McCoy...including starting Orton, McCoy could have made a case for any player to start, he's the offensive mind of this team (which is rather depressing) but still, it's his call over Fox's even, because it's his offense...Fox can not run the offense - that would be like Shanahan calling the plays and making the decisions on defense...it's rather a moronic idea. If Fox has that much power over offense after what went down in Carolina then we're going to get a lot worse then we are now, he's made some bad decisions regarding the offense already in his career. Either way, McCoy holds a lot of the responsibility as do the other coaches on that side of the ball. It's not like they have nothing to work with...personally, I would love to run this offense with some of the talent we have, though I guarantee we wouldn't be using the Erhardt-Perkins or any variant of that particular system at least not as the base system for the offense.

McCoy has to shoulder the responsibility for his short comings, just as any other coach.

[Bosco]

Sincerely, I have to disagree... Granted, talent can compensate for short comings as a coach, a great coach can develop talent from nothing, a bad coach can neither develop a scheme or instill a system to utilize greater talent - think about it TX, McCoy learned two variations of the same system from two of the worst coaches to utilize that system and is the only offense he knows in the whole of his career thus far, Dan Henning and then Josh McDaniels, one used the more general Erhardt-Perkins or the variant thereof and his offenses were horrible, almost downright awful. Josh McDaniels the other who used more of a Air-Erhardt variant, well look at his offenses since leaving New England...it's not like McCoy has proven to be anything more then those who taught him those two variants. He hasn't proven a lick of solid coaching ability since coming to Denver, and it's rather obvious. He's not the next Carmichael, Payton, Mularkey, Arians, Weiss or even Whisenhunt.

Dan Henning actually runs the Air Coryell offense, not Erhardt-Perkins.

[Lancane]

Dan Henning actually runs the Air Coryell offense, not Erhardt-Perkins.

I'm sorry Bosco, you're correct...Dan Henning has been noted to run the Air-Coryell, because he has utilized several parts of that system into his own and because he is considered to be from the Gibbs coaching tree. However, stating that the base offense he runs is the Air-Coryell is a bit of a slight on that offensive system to say the least, he utilized parts of the Erhardt offense as well as other spread offensive systems including what could be considered an Option, the Wing-T, Power-I and of course the dreary Wild Cat. So it would be easy to say that he runs the Air-Coryell, he did in San Diego, but he ran the Erhardt in 2000 and has experience in the offense prior to that. If you go back and watch the games you can find from his stint in Carolina and in Miami you'll see parts of the Erhardt and other spread offenses in his play calling.

It should be noted that McCoy was also supposedly under Jeff Davidson, but he was more or less a bona fide ground game coordinator in Carolina, he completely sucked in Carolina even worse then Henning as the offensive coordinator, though still neither bodes well for McCoy.

[Bosco]

I'm sorry Bosco, you're correct...Dan Henning has been noted to run the Air-Coryell, because he has utilized several parts of that system into his own and because he is considered to be from the Gibbs coaching tree. However, stating that the base offense he runs is the Air-Coryell is a bit of a slight on that offensive system to say the least, he utilized parts of the Erhardt offense as well as other spread offensive systems including what could be considered an Option, the Wing-T, Power-I and of course the dreary Wild Cat. So it would be easy to say that he runs the Air-Coryell, he did in San Diego, but he ran the Erhardt in 2000 and has experience in the offense prior to that. If you go back and watch the games you can find from his stint in Carolina and in Miami you'll see parts of the Erhardt and other spread offenses in his play calling.

It should be noted that McCoy was also supposedly under Jeff Davidson, but he was more or less a bona fide ground game coordinator in Carolina, he completely sucked in Carolina even worse then Henning as the offensive coordinator, though still neither bodes well for McCoy.

The Air Coryell offense is often run out of spread sets (see Indy and Dallas) but yes, coaches are always stealing bits and pieces of different schemes from one another. These days the lines are being increasingly blurred to the point you can only tell offenses apart my their nomenclature.

I was cautiously optimistic on McCoy, and figured that a couple years under McDaniels might have taught him something about offensive scheming and game planning, but he has been rather unimpressive since he took over the offense. Still, I think Fox bears alot of blame for that. Fox hasn't been shy about his insistence of a conservative offense and McCoy's play calling has definitely changed since the end of 2010.

[Lancane]

The Air Coryell offense is often run out of spread sets (see Indy and Dallas) but yes, coaches are always stealing bits and pieces of different schemes from one another. These days the lines are being increasingly blurred to the point you can only tell offenses apart my their nomenclature.

I was cautiously optimistic on McCoy, and figured that a couple years under McDaniels might have taught him something about offensive scheming and game planning, but he has been rather unimpressive since he took over the offense. Still, I think Fox bears alot of blame for that. Fox hasn't been shy about his insistence of a conservative offense and McCoy's play calling has definitely changed since the end of 2010.

The biggest problem with offensive coordinators now more then in the past is that many of them are raised in a set offensive system and usually they adopt it as the base offense for which to build upon, sometimes they'll even adopt another system along the way and believe the two are interchangeable, as I believe McCoy has, I haven't seen much of anything that screams that he's studious of the change or for that matter a true student of the game. I wholeheartedly agree that good coordinators infuse different parts of different schemes or systems, but they must also be knowledgeable enough to know when to continue with a system or change it, even when to add to it. I don't believe there is a pure offensive system remaining in the NFL, their all choppy but worse is when the offense in question doesn't work.

I remember that you had faith in McCoy prior to the season, and I was myself against the idea of him remaining and still am. The problem was or at least IMHO, that he really has learned his craft from those coaches that are somewhat mediocre, Henning was an awful offensive coordinator three-fourths of the time, Davidson was worse without question and McDaniels, he really has proven to be worse then people thought since his time in New England. Granted I am not a fan of the Erhardt-Perkins or other spread offensive systems, I am more of an Ohio River Offense fan myself.

[MeanDean]

Balls to go for it? It was stupid to go for it. In a tight game up by 4 you kick it everytime.

I agreed with going for it. If you gain two yards than you win, if you dont, then your defense has to stop them from going 98 yards. You ALWAYS go for it in that situation.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Sincerely, I have to disagree... Granted, talent can compensate for short comings as a coach, a great coach can develop talent from nothing, a bad coach can neither develop a scheme or instill a system to utilize greater talent - think about it TX, McCoy learned two variations of the same system from two of the worst coaches to utilize that system and is the only offense he knows in the whole of his career thus far, Dan Henning and then Josh McDaniels, one used the more general Erhardt-Perkins or the variant thereof and his offenses were horrible, almost downright awful. Josh McDaniels the other who used more of a Air-Erhardt variant, well look at his offenses since leaving New England...it's not like McCoy has proven to be anything more then those who taught him those two variants. He hasn't proven a lick of solid coaching ability since coming to Denver, and it's rather obvious. He's not the next Carmichael, Payton, Mularkey, Arians, Weiss or even Whisenhunt.

Yes, we have a lot of problems offensively regarding talent, but we also have a fair bit of talent that has not been used wisely either. We have a two-time all-pro left tackle, we have a steadfast right guard, the rest of the offensive line has been gathered via the draft and is steadily improving week in and week out, they're starting to gel as a unit, it's rather hard to come together when you have two sophomore lineman and a rookie gelling with two linemen who have been part of the same unit for years, we may have to replace one or two, but no one can not deny that the lockout hurt the line as a unit. Another thing I noticed is that we've started to use less and less of the zone and more of the man and the results are better. McCoy runs the offense in accordance with Fox's philosophy, it's as apparent as the lack of good coaches on the offensive side of the ball, hell...if anyone watched film on Royal they'd have realized he's better suited as a slot receiver or the Y position, not the in the X or Z positions. Lloyd should be the flank receiver with Decker at the split receiver spot, instead they didn't watch film or that's my opinion and should have kept Royal at the slot where he's the most dangerous. That's not on Fox, everything is on McCoy...including starting Orton, McCoy could have made a case for any player to start, he's the offensive mind of this team (which is rather depressing) but still, it's his call over Fox's even, because it's his offense...Fox can not run the offense - that would be like Shanahan calling the plays and making the decisions on defense...it's rather a moronic idea. If Fox has that much power over offense after what went down in Carolina then we're going to get a lot worse then we are now, he's made some bad decisions regarding the offense already in his career. Either way, McCoy holds a lot of the responsibility as do the other coaches on that side of the ball. It's not like they have nothing to work with...personally, I would love to run this offense with some of the talent we have, though I guarantee we wouldn't be using the Erhardt-Perkins or any variant of that particular system at least not as the base system for the offense.

McCoy has to shoulder the responsibility for his short comings, just as any other coach.

I have to disagree a little bit here. Yes, McCoy's schemes and play calls aren't exactly imaginative or groundbreaking, but you do expect to gain more than a yard on a simple run between the tackles with a 235 lb RB. This is very similar to the same type of running game that Carolina used for years very effectively. The same coaching pieces are in place. The difference? Execution. We currently have an interior O-line that gets pushed into the backfield on running plays and a QB who cannot compensate by sliding in the pocket when he gets pressured.

From all accounts, the pass protection wasn't bad in the Tennessee game. Orton just made bad reads and was inaccurate when he did feel a little pressure (or phantom pressure as seen by our 1st and goal from the 2 yard line throw away as soon as his first read wasn't there, even though there was no pressure). When your offensive line can't even run a HB iso play or a run off tackle and get 3 yards anywhere on the field in any down and distance scenario, you are pretty handcuffed as the the plays you can call.

If McCoy was just calling bubble screen after bubble screen or calling the same plays that didn't work over and over, I can see thrashing him about it, but this offense can't even execute a screen pass to the RB effectively because Orton cannot throw for shit while backpedaling and inviting the blitz upfield. He panics and throws it away and has no accuracy when his feet are moving.

Running plays are pretty simple, you either go right or left and you pick the gap to run through. If the O-line can't block it correctly or is constantly getting pushed back, those run plays don't work. Our O-line has been atrocious at blocking runs between the tackles and McGahee just isn't fast enough to run outside, he gets rundown before he reaches the edge. Much like the Moreno hate going on, I still can't place too much blame on McCoy for the offense seeing as how he has an O-line that can't consistently block for a 3 yard run and a QB who can't throw effectively without 5 seconds to wait for his #1 WR to uncover, a clean pocket, and set feet - and even then he gets too many passes batted down or over/under throws his WRs.

[jhildebrand]

So let me get this straight. I want to make sure I have it right.

During McDaniels' time (can't call it an era) people complained about 3-4 straight passes in the RZ and settling for a FG.

Now with Fox we are complaining about 4 straight runs? :confused: We complained about not having a killer instinct and going for the wins to complaining about not kicking a FG and being 'safe.'

Got it.

[Ravage!!!]

I didn't mind the running down from the 1 yard line. I have the same belief, that with 4 attempts, SURELY you can get a single yard.... thats all you need. More things can go wrong with a pass than a run, and you just need one yard. Didn't have a problem with the play calls as I did with the complete lack of executing. Plus, if you fail, you have them on the 1. That generally forces an offense to be conservative on the first down to get OUT of the endzone so that any penalty isn't a safety.


I didn't want McCoy anyway. But it seems his playcalling isn't worse than what we had with the previous HC.