An honest question I have for my fellow Bronco fans

[fcspikeit]

First off, this is not just another ski is falling, rant thread we see after each loss. It is an honest question I have for you, one I have been asking myself for the last couple years now.

I’m sure the loss today had something to do with this question making its rounds again. However, I want to point out, I felt we had a chance to win today, but I also knew we would have to overcome a lot to do so. That being said, the loss wasn’t unsuspected.

Even though the odds were we were going to lose today, something is still troubling me. I have stated in the past how I feel about Slowik and his ridicules schemes. But it’s not that. I mean we all knew going in, our D wasn’t going to stop them. Our D wasn’t going to win us the game. The Best we could hope for out of our D was to show up, fight hard and give our offense a chance to win the game. For the most part didn’t they do that?

I am not that disappointed in our defense today, maybe it’s just because I have grown accustom, to accepting their not very good. What I am disappointed in, is our offense.

It just feels like it doesn’t have to be this way. Do you know what I mean? We have talent on our offense. How can we have so much talent and be so flat? I’m not just talking about the individual play either. The entire game plan just seems flat to me. It’s basic to the core. It’s like there is very little planning/scheming involved. We send guys on individual routs and expect they will get open. We do not get open guys because our scheme has set it up. When someone is open, it’s because the receiver just beat his man or he wasn’t open at all and Cutler just made an amazing throw.

Where is the planning, the creativity? Really think about this, when was the last time we had an offensive game plan that was set up based on our opponent’s weakness? A game plan that didn’t solely revolve around the bootleg?

I truly believe we have way too much talent on offense to ever be stopped/shut down. Yet this seems to be the case more then half the time, just about every time the defense stops our bootlegs, our offensive scheme has nothing to offer.

I know cutler threw an INT to a covered guy, but do you really believe that is the problem with our offense? Isn’t that the real problem with our pocket passing scheme, there are no open guys? I mean really open. How can a defense cover all our receiving threats? How can they double Marshall every play, and someone not be wide open? It’s like they have 20 guys on the field. When we try and double a WR, there are always guys wide open. Hell, half the time, as in the case today, the doubled guy is wide open. So what gives? Why do other defenses make it look so easy to stop our 4 viable receiving threats and we make it look so hard to stop their 1? Seriously?

I’m not saying I have the answer. But clearly there has to be one. For instance, we couldn’t even cover Carolinas' 1 receiving threat. Imagine what they would have done to us if they had our 4. There would have been 2 or 3 guys running wide open on every play.

Why can’t Shanahan devise a plan to get at least one of our guys open? I see it all the time with other teams. The defender doesn’t have to fall down to get a guy open.

I guess that brings me to my question.

Do you still believe in Shanahans ability to put a creative offensive scheme together? One that actually works and don’t require 5 + successful bootlegs to be affective. I have always held Shanahan among the best offensive minds in the game. But I am not seeing that from our offense on Sundays, to tell you the truth, I haven’t seen that in a long time.

Is it just me? Are there open guys and Cutler just isn’t finding them?

In closing,

I’m not calling for Shanahans head, but I have lost a lot of faith in his offensive creativity. At one point I felt he could take less talent on offense and get more out of it then just about anyone, lately it seems we have as much talent on offense as anyone and are getting far less production then teams with less talent.

[CrazyHorse]

I think a lot of our inept offense is the lack of a quality running back. Without that it forces us to be one dimensional. This has been a problem since most of our running backs have gone down. We don't have a definite starter going into next year either.

[JKcatch724]

I believe we can thank Shanahan for making this offense what it is minus 700 running backs. To think "he's lost all creativity" is absurd. He has no room to be creative with a one-dimensional attack.

[Hawgdriver]

The lack of a between the tackles running threat allows the defenses we face to play against the pass. Combine that with an offense that leans on play action and it's tough. Our pass/run playcalling was lopsided, and we couldn't rely on the run. Our runs up until the end of the fourth quarter were 2-5 yards, and we could never establish the run. It was run to keep the defense a little bit honest and set up the play action, but we never convinced them that we could just run the ball all day. As good as Jay is at finding the open man, as good as the line is at protecting Jay, as good as Jay is at avoiding the sack, and as good as the receivers are--it's not enough to keep drives going unless we have a credible rushing attack. Plus, Carolina played defense well, especially getting pressure on Jay and making him uncomfortable and hurried.

[fcspikeit]

I believe we can thank Shanahan for making this offense what it is minus 700 running backs. To think "he's lost all creativity" is absurd. He has no room to be creative with a one-dimensional attack.

I'm talking about creativity in our passing game, The Colts had a one dimensional attack for years and they still managed to have open guys. They didn't win the SB until they got a running game. I'm not talking about being good enough to win the SB with a one dimensional passing attack.

There is a big difference between that and being able to put a pocket passing scheme together that actually works.

[fcspikeit]

The lack of a between the tackles running threat allows the defenses we face to play against the pass. Combine that with an offense that leans on play action and it's tough. Our pass/run playcalling was lopsided, and we couldn't rely on the run. Our runs up until the end of the fourth quarter were 2-5 yards, and we could never establish the run. It was run to keep the defense a little bit honest and set up the play action, but we never convinced them that we could just run the ball all day. As good as Jay is at finding the open man, as good as the line is at protecting Jay, as good as Jay is at avoiding the sack, and as good as the receivers are--it's not enough to keep drives going unless we have a credible rushing attack. Plus, Carolina played defense well, especially getting pressure on Jay and making him uncomfortable and hurried.

I understand our troubles with running the ball, I also know the affect it has on the passing game. That really goes to the heart of my question, do you believe Shanahan can put a successful passing scheme together, that don't revolve around our ability to run the ball?

Up until this point, all the success Shanahan schemes has had passing the ball has come of the run. Everything comes off the play action and bootleg. That is not a drop back pocket passing scheme. When the run goes, so does the play action and bootleg, If we can't play action and bootleg, we don't have success passing the ball.

[JKcatch724]

I'm talking about creativity in our passing game, The Colts had a one dimensional attack for years and they still managed to have open guys. They didn't win the SB until they got a running game. I'm not talking about being good enough to win the SB with a one dimensional passing attack.

There is a big difference between that and being able to put a pocket passing scheme together that actually works.

The Colts had Edgerrin James during those years, though. It's a little different when you've got Tatum Bell in the backfield. I can't honestly think of a team that has a less-feared running attack than us.

You know who would be great right now (haters)? Clinton. :D

[PatricktheDookie]

I think Cutler makes our team look a lot better than they actually are.

We are a team that passes to set up the run. Until that changes, expect teams to key in on the pass and expect Jay to have to continue squeezing the ball into tight holes.

I am confident in Shanahan's football mind and his ability to lead this team and this organization, though.

[G_Money]

I agree with everybody about the running game issues.

We can’t get tough yards on the ground without Hillis (and earlier in the year, Pittman) so it’s hard to sustain drives against decent defenses.

We also play a lot out of the shotgun, which makes your running game basically a draw attack if you have one at all.

I worry more about that. Even if we get another good runner in here to pair with a fully-healthy Hillis (see what I’m doing there? Speaking truth into existence. Come back really healthy, Peyton…) we’re gonna have trouble running an offense from the shotgun all the time.

It’s great for Jay. No dropping back to pass, no fumbling the snap from center at least once a game, he can see the whole field instantly…

But our running attack is what keyed our SB runs. Going up on the other team BIG before half-time with a high-powered offense, and then grinding out 10 minute drives in the 2nd half to absolutely kill the clock while we blitzed the bajeezus out of people.

That’s not the only way to win, but it is the way Shanahan has demonstrated he CAN win in the playoffs.

Absolutely dominant running attack + great passing weapons + good play-calling + rocket-armed QB making decent decisions + attacking defense = Broncos Championships.

That’s the way we know how to do it.

And for all our success in the draft the last 3 years, here’s our current equation:

Mediocre running attack with beatup backs + great passing weapons + mediocre play-calling + rocket-armed QB starting to make better decisions + bent-over defense = dogfight to finish above .500 and win the pathetic AFC West.

We’ve still got work to do – and I hope Shanahan realizes it. Coaching needs to get better. Playcalling needs to get better. Talent still needs to get better, at least at RB and on D.

For where we're at in the rebuild (since we apparently thought 2006 was gonna be a championship and we didn’t need any players in 2007) that’s not a terrible equation thus far.

It just won’t cut it for hoisting the trophy. As long as we remember what it’s like to have a dominant running attack and Cutler isn’t so fascinated with 4000 yards through the air that he can suffer through 2200+ yards on the ground and some extra victories, we’ll be okay on offense. I hope we don’t use injuries to our mostly-mediocre RB corps as an excuse for why we don’t even have a shadow of our former glory on the ground. Even if healthy Hall, Pittman and Young weren’t bringing home a championship as our running game.

Shanny has to know that, right?

*crosses fingers*

~G

[fcspikeit]

I agree with everybody about the running game issues.

We can’t get tough yards on the ground without Hillis (and earlier in the year, Pittman) so it’s hard to sustain drives against decent defenses.

We also play a lot out of the shotgun, which makes your running game basically a draw attack if you have one at all.

I worry more about that. Even if we get another good runner in here to pair with a fully-healthy Hillis (see what I’m doing there? Speaking truth into existence. Come back really healthy, Peyton…) we’re gonna have trouble running an offense from the shotgun all the time.

It’s great for Jay. No dropping back to pass, no fumbling the snap from center at least once a game, he can see the whole field instantly…

But our running attack is what keyed our SB runs. Going up on the other team BIG before half-time with a high-powered offense, and then grinding out 10 minute drives in the 2nd half to absolutely kill the clock while we blitzed the bajeezus out of people.

That’s not the only way to win, but it is the way Shanahan has demonstrated he CAN win in the playoffs.

Absolutely dominant running attack + great passing weapons + good play-calling + rocket-armed QB making decent decisions + attacking defense = Broncos Championships.

That’s the way we know how to do it.

And for all our success in the draft the last 3 years, here’s our current equation:

Mediocre running attack with beatup backs + great passing weapons + mediocre play-calling + rocket-armed QB starting to make better decisions + bent-over defense = dogfight to finish above .500 and win the pathetic AFC West.

We’ve still got work to do – and I hope Shanahan realizes it. Coaching needs to get better. Playcalling needs to get better. Talent still needs to get better, at least at RB and on D.

For where we're at in the rebuild (since we apparently thought 2006 was gonna be a championship and we didn’t need any players in 2007) that’s not a terrible equation thus far.

It just won’t cut it for hoisting the trophy. As long as we remember what it’s like to have a dominant running attack and Cutler isn’t so fascinated with 4000 yards through the air that he can suffer through 2200+ yards on the ground and some extra victories, we’ll be okay on offense. I hope we don’t use injuries to our mostly-mediocre RB corps as an excuse for why we don’t even have a shadow of our former glory on the ground. Even if healthy Hall, Pittman and Young weren’t bringing home a championship as our running game.

Shanny has to know that, right?

*crosses fingers*

~G

G, again you make good points, everyone who has posted so far has made good points. I don't disagree, And I know the affect not being able to run the ball has on an offense. Especially a Shanahan ran offense.

Still, something doesn't feel right. When I watch the games it just seems like we could be doing more with what we have now. Do you agree with that? Or do you feel we are getting all we can out of the 11 guys we have and nothing can be done to improve our offense until we get some more pieces.

I realize there is no way Shanahan could, can put a winning scheme together for every single game. The other 31 coaches in the league get paid too and a lot of them have more to work with at this time. So I don't expect us to never hit bumps in the road.

The problem I have is, we only seem to have 1 formula for success. If the other team can stop our run and therefore take away the play action and boots they will stop our offense. Does it have to be that way? If a team is set on stopping one thing, can't we come up with something else that will take advantage of them gearing to stop the play action?

In you opinion is there no way of running a successful scheme without a dominant run game?

On our opening drives we have guys open, we move the ball down the field with ease. Then the defense adjusts and we have nothing to offer for the rest of the game. Guys who were once open are now covered. Why can't/don't we change some things up to take advantage of the new looks the defense is giving us?

One thing I noticed from the game was our RB swinging out, he looked to be open most the time. Cutler should have dropped it to him more then he did. If he had taken advantage of that a bit more, who know what that would have opened up down field? If that was the plan, someone should have told Cutler to throw it in the flat and stop forcing throws down field. The Saints do that with Bush 10+ times a game when needed.

Thanks to everyone who has taken part in this conversation, I have to say, your faith in our offensive scheme has made me feel a bit better. It sucks we lost Hillis for the year. IMO next to Cutler, he was the guy we could least afford to lose... With the loss of him our slim chances of really being able to do something this year, dramatically decreased.

[LRtagger]

I'm talking about creativity in our passing game, The Colts had a one dimensional attack for years and they still managed to have open guys. They didn't win the SB until they got a running game. I'm not talking about being good enough to win the SB with a one dimensional passing attack.

There is a big difference between that and being able to put a pocket passing scheme together that actually works.

They also had Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison. As good as our skill guys are on offense, we aren't on that level yet. Jay still has a couple years to go before he is on Peyton's level. As good as he has been we all have to remember this is only his second full season as a starter. There are going to be some inconsistencies with an offense this young....especially when he has no running game to fall back on.

[Hawgdriver]

I understand your point better now, and here's my thought: why change a winning formula? Even with mediocre talent at running back we can run this offense. I would rather have Jay continue to run the same plays and the staff stay within the existing philosophy and wait for fresh sets of legs in '09. It's possible that Shanny and Bates could go back to the drawing board and focus on drop-back and shotgun and do very well, but that would take at least one off-season. There might also be personnel issues with the line, since we have trained the guys in ZBS or whatever it's called. I do think this could be done, but plugging in fresh legs makes more sense to me. Especially since, as G pointed out, it's been proven to work.

But perhaps you know better than I the difficulties in making mid-season adjustments with the pass play calling. Is it easier to make a change than I suggest? I know they have been trying to compensate for the run with the wr screens and jailbreaks and quick hitches, but that's been sniffed out.

[CoachChaz]

Cant argue with any of this, but I still have to question running up the middle on 3rd and 7 late in the half or throwing a 2 yard hitch on 3rd and 14 in their territory.

Cutler still misses an open guy from time to time, but I still cant begin to figure out why a kid with an arm as big as his is handcuffed so much by a passing game that never throws the ball 10 yards downfield.

Has Shanny lost his touch? I cant answer that. but it sure as hell looks like NFL defenses have figured him out.

[fcspikeit]

They also had Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison. As good as our skill guys are on offense, we aren't on that level yet. Jay still has a couple years to go before he is on Peyton's level. As good as he has been we all have to remember this is only his second full season as a starter. There are going to be some inconsistencies with an offense this young....especially when he has no running game to fall back on.

So in your opinion, it's the players fault and not the scheme? I agree Manning is/was better then Cutler, IMO Marshall has the ability to have more of an impact on a game then Harrison. Royal is a closer comparison to Harrison then is Marshall. I hope that didn't come out wrong? Harrison is a stud. But he don't have the size to take advantage of the middle of the field like Marshall.

What is the name of the WR in Houston? Is it Johnson? Every game you see him making plays. They get it close and he does the rest. Most the balls coming his way have no business being thrown, yet he has shown time and time again, he will make the play. IMO Marshall has the size and skill set to be like that.

Getting back to your point, I would agree more and put the blame on Cutler if I was seeing him miss open guys.

One thing is for sure, either our scheming isn't taking advantage of the passing threats we have or the passing threats we have aren't as good as I think they are?

I just find it hard to believe there is no way of getting the guys we have open. When the colts were tearing us up, there was nothing we could do. No matter what, we could not cover everyone. We had LB's on Stockley and Clark. Any adjustments made just left Harrison and Wayne open or single covered. When was the last time we seen Marshall, Royal, Stockley or Sheffler wide open? The only time I have seen anyone wide open came off the bootleg, which leads me to believe, Our offensive passing attack lives and dies with the run game. Does it really have to be that way?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I understand our troubles with running the ball, I also know the affect it has on the passing game. That really goes to the heart of my question, do you believe Shanahan can put a successful passing scheme together, that don't revolve around our ability to run the ball?

Up until this point, all the success Shanahan schemes has had passing the ball has come of the run. Everything comes off the play action and bootleg. That is not a drop back pocket passing scheme. When the run goes, so does the play action and bootleg, If we can't play action and bootleg, we don't have success passing the ball.

For as long as I can remember, I have always heard that the running game sets up the passing game. As we all know, with all of the injuries, we do not have much of a running game right now. Therefore, the other team's defense has less to try to stop. In my opinion, the only thing the coaches can do now is get very creative with the passing game, and hope it works.

[Medford Bronco]

Cant argue with any of this, but I still have to question running up the middle on 3rd and 7 late in the half or throwing a 2 yard hitch on 3rd and 14 in their territory.

Cutler still misses an open guy from time to time, but I still cant begin to figure out why a kid with an arm as big as his is handcuffed so much by a passing game that never throws the ball 10 yards downfield.

Has Shanny lost his touch? I cant answer that. but it sure as hell looks like NFL defenses have figured him out.

and why was Selvin young even touching the ball at that juncture:eek:

I agree, I miss the downfield throws as well.

[LRtagger]

So in your opinion, it's the players fault and not the scheme? I agree Manning is/was better then Cutler, IMO Marshall has the ability to have more of an impact on a game then Harrison. Royal is a closer comparison to Harrison then is Marshall. I hope that didn't come out wrong? Harrison is a stud. But he don't have the size to take advantage of the middle of the field like Marshall.

I'd say its a little of both, but mostly the players and the injuries we have incurred at the RB position. I think with a guy like Hillis in the lineup yesterday the game would have been completely different.

The playcalling could be better at times. I think anytime we had an offensive penalty (especially a holding call) I felt like the coaches gave up on the possession. With such a dynamic offense and a piss-poor defense, I would like to see us go for 1st downs even if it is 2nd and 20 or whatever. Seems like if it is 2nd and 20, it is almost a given we will run he ball.

The bubble screens are annoying. They work maybe 10% of the time, yet we keep running them in dumb situations. I remember one in particular, 3rd and 1 around midfield. We run a screen to Royal and he loses 2 yards. I think we ran one to Scheff and it lost yardage and on one, Cutler threw the ball away and we got an illegal man downfield call because the ball was thrown past the LOS.

If we had a consistant runner, we could do away with those plays all together. Also, I think Cutler has a hard time recognizing coverage and blitzes. He did not see that blitz on the second play of the game at all...luckily the tuck rule saved us. He still has a lot of growing and learning to do.

I would like to see Pope get more carries and would like to see Boyd get some carries too. Tater is not cutting it IMO and Pope runs better and is better out of the backfield anyways. I'm not sure why we didnt keep running the wheel play to Pope out of the backfield (the TD play) because their defense never had a defender on him the entire game.

We have to improve on all aspects of the game if we want to contend with Indy, Baltimore, Pitts, Tenn in the playoffs. The coaches and players need to step it up...but I will say I think the offensive coaches have done a great job this season considering the adversity we have faced with injuries. It's hard to gameplan an offense when you arent sure if your running game is going to work or not. It makes it a lot easier when you dont have to worry about your backs.

[NameUsedBefore]

Lions mentality.

"We only gave up 30 points, but I mean should we have expected better?"

[D1g1tal j1m]

I believe that the success that the lower round and unheralded runners have had in the past has been a curse. Coming into the last few seasons, Shan has not significantly upgraded the RB position due to the thought by him, the fans and the media that any guy with two legs could get a 1,000+ yard season in our scheme. We have finally fallen flat on our faces with regard to the running game and the lack of fear from opposing D's of the play-action (which has become non existent) and the lack of designed roll-outs by Cutler (most are now done due to the avoidance of the opponents pass-rush).
Looking at our injured RB's, looking at them I don't feel confident that anyone of them causes concern for the opposing D's. Pittman was a hard runner but probably would have worn down by this time if he was healthy. Young wasn't busting up huge yardage numbers when he was healthy at the beginning of the year, Torain did well in the short time he played but looks injury prone (i.e. not durable). Aldridge at 5'9" and 185 was not going to be the number one guy at that size. Hall is a nice backup but doesn't have the speed to break long runs (in my opinion anyways). Hillis is a hybrid FB/TE with great hands. He should be used like a Dallas Clark and moved out of the RB position.
The offense has been molded and shifted to a passing scheme due to Cutler's arm. Shan has fallen in love with it and has lost the balance that his successful offenses have displayed in the past. He needs to get a bonified stud RB. He needs to stop with the free agent retreads and low and undrafted RB's in the draft (they went low and undrafted for a reason).

[Superchop 7]

Getting our butts kicked by Carolina was a good thing.

I have no doubt they will come out more focused and determined.

We need that.

[fcspikeit]

I understand your point better now, and here's my thought: why change a winning formula? Even with mediocre talent at running back we can run this offense. I would rather have Jay continue to run the same plays and the staff stay within the existing philosophy and wait for fresh sets of legs in '09. It's possible that Shanny and Bates could go back to the drawing board and focus on drop-back and shotgun and do very well, but that would take at least one off-season. There might also be personnel issues with the line, since we have trained the guys in ZBS or whatever it's called. I do think this could be done, but plugging in fresh legs makes more sense to me. Especially since, as G pointed out, it's been proven to work.

But perhaps you know better than I the difficulties in making mid-season adjustments with the pass play calling. Is it easier to make a change than I suggest? I know they have been trying to compensate for the run with the wr screens and jailbreaks and quick hitches, but that's been sniffed out.

Here is the thing, Plummer was good in the play action bootleg system being set up off our running game. From my understanding the reason we Drafted Cutler was because Shanahan wanted to go to more of a pocket passing system. we are more of a pocket passing team now then we have ever been.

As far as adjusting our scheme each week to take advantage of our opponents weakness's, It is something that has to be done. We won't match up against some teams as well as others, But you still have to be able to take advantage of what is given you if you want to be successful passing the ball. Some of the stuff we do leaves me scratching my head. For instance, on 3rd and short the defense was in press coverage. We ran a WR screen. The only chance that could have worked is if Royal would have made a huge play. Any play call can work if only the players can make huge plays. That is not scheme as much as having the best players on the field.

On the first drive when Marshall caught the ball coming across the middle it was a great design, Stockley run a go rout, backing up the S and clearing out the middle of the field. Marshall came underneath and caught the ball. There was nothing his man could do but follow him and try and make the tackle after the catch. Where is the motion? We have sent Royal in motion and quickly snapped the ball as he cleared the tackle. Having Marshall run a go rout to open it up underneath, Royal was able to run a quick out, He will always have a step on his man trying to work through traffic to get over and cover him.

If they put the corner in short zone to stop that, it opens up the intermediate rout for Marshall down the field between the S coming over and the corner releasing him. If they do nothing to stop it, you keep running it until they make an adjustment and open other things up. They adjust to stop what we're doing and we don't seem to have an answer to take advantage of the new openings we now have...

[fcspikeit]

I believe that the success that the lower round and unheralded runners have had in the past has been a curse. Coming into the last few seasons, Shan has not significantly upgraded the RB position due to the thought by him, the fans and the media that any guy with two legs could get a 1,000+ yard season in our scheme. We have finally fallen flat on our faces with regard to the running game and the lack of fear from opposing D's of the play-action (which has become non existent) and the lack of designed roll-outs by Cutler (most are now done due to the avoidance of the opponents pass-rush).
Looking at our injured RB's, looking at them I don't feel confident that anyone of them causes concern for the opposing D's. Pittman was a hard runner but probably would have worn down by this time if he was healthy. Young wasn't busting up huge yardage numbers when he was healthy at the beginning of the year, Torain did well in the short time he played but looks injury prone (i.e. not durable). Aldridge at 5'9" and 185 was not going to be the number one guy at that size. Hall is a nice backup but doesn't have the speed to break long runs (in my opinion anyways). Hillis is a hybrid FB/TE with great hands. He should be used like a Dallas Clark and moved out of the RB position.
The offense has been molded and shifted to a passing scheme due to Cutler's arm. Shan has fallen in love with it and has lost the balance that his successful offenses have displayed in the past. He needs to get a bonified stud RB. He needs to stop with the free agent retreads and low and undrafted RB's in the draft (they went low and undrafted for a reason).

A 1st round RB sitting on the bench is just as unaffective as a late round back.

Point being, the lack of talent there has not hurt us as much as the injuries have. I still believe we could be getting more out of our passing game despite the lack of a stud RB in the backfield.

[sacmar]

Shanahan doesn't fumble the ball, miss coverages, or injure his own players. With the injuries we have, guys playing offence and D, no real chance to gel any real consistant team together etc...with all that's gone on we really aren't in that bad of a situation. Look at the jets, skins, chargers, jags and others with a lot more than we have and doing a whole lot less, all this stuff has to be addressed in the offseason, but the last thing our team needs is our own fans and players not beliving that we at least have a slim shot of still doing a couple of big things this year, we're starting to cry way too early. It's like me giving my kids and early christmas gift to open just to have them bitch about it Let's deal with what we got and worry about the rest after the season. Open the gift and play with it let's stop crying that we got the bratz instead of barbie. How far in first do we have to be to win the super bowl ??? We head into it like the pats and loose when it really matters or be like the giants take our bumps and just pray for a divine intervention. Our team has already shown this year we can beat the nfc all star team on the road one week and loose to USC the next. But if we do who cares how. Nothing is going to change this late in the season our best hope is to get some guys back of injury and let's make the biggest push we can. We're in first damn place on our way probably to the playoffs lets be happy for that. Not complain cause we aren't in super first place and winning every game by 50. Anything short of the superbowl is a failure but look how far we've already come compared to a lot of other teams, i'm in no way content but i am appreciative that for what our guys have been able to do this year so far. A little more of that and maybe the players will belive more as well. Would you rather be a bengal, raider, or chief fan these days...they have a real reason to cry.

[MOtorboat]

injure his own players.

That is being debated.

[sacmar]

That is being debated. Lol.....allright that's pretty funny. I wrote this with my big boy mean face on, and lowered my voice a bit...so stop making me laugh

[NightTrainLayne]

I think a lot of this falls on Jeremy Bates' shoulders.

You can see (now that Kubiak's been gone a few years) that our offense has been dramatically different under each OC we've had. Kubiak, Heimerdinger, and Bates all have very different approaches and Shanny (in my view) has given each a lot of lee-way in running the offense. . .that's evidenced by the much different spin each of them has shown during their tenure.

I hope Bates learns a lot from this season and improves. He's done pretty well really for a first year OC. Better than Heimerdinger was in Denver at least. I'm hoping to see some growth for him as well as he get's more familiar in that role.

[Grover]

First of all, can we get rid of that useless play that is the side out to our receivers that invariably loses us two to five yards? When Cutler passes, he NEEDS to get it past the line of scrimmage.

Second, as other posters have said, the fact that we run a lot of plays out of the shotgun formation seems to limit our options. So that's the place I'd start in order to mix things up a little.

Third, our only truly reliable slot receiver is Brandon Stokley. We don't use Shefler in that role, treating him more as a downfield option. Marshall has trouble holding on to the ball in traffic. Royal is reliable, but he'll get killed going over the middle so I think his best use is outside.

What I hope happens, is that Boyd and Pope continue playing at tailback, as they seem to be reliable options out of the backfield for short passes. Let's use our Tight Ends more for underneath stuff, and I think we'll make more of those third down conversions. I'd throw plenty to Royal and Marshall on first and second down, with enough runs in there to keep the defense honest.

Although I think the offense can be game planned better, what I really think the problem is - lies with Cutler. When he has an "off" day, he doesn't seem to get better. I think he got rattled against the Panthers, the game turned into a struggle, and he couldn't seem to get back on track. Needing to put the whole team on his shoulders at such a young age isn't the best option, but others have done it and succeeded.

Hopefully Boyd will come along as I think we need a larger tailback to take some of the pressure off Cutler. I've watched some of those college highlights of Boyd and I like his running and pass catching abilities. Let's hope he can be NFL ready because we need him.

[D1g1tal j1m]

A 1st round RB sitting on the bench is just as unaffective as a late round back.

Point being, the lack of talent there has not hurt us as much as the injuries have. I still believe we could be getting more out of our passing game despite the lack of a stud RB in the backfield.

A 1st round running back would not be sitting on the bench but would be backed up by the likes of Pittman, Young and Torain.
The RB's are injured because they are asked to do things that they are not suited for.
Our passing game is suffering because we have become 1 dimensional in our offense and the Defenses are teeing off on Jay and the passing game. I am surprised they are doing as well as they have without a consistent running game.

[D1g1tal j1m]

To see what is wrong with the offense just look at the statement that
What I hope happens, is that Boyd and Pope continue playing at tailback, as they seem to be reliable options out of the backfield for short passes.
We are talking about Boyd and Pope being the number 1 guy over Tator-Tot Bell and Selvin "2,000 yard" Young.

[fcspikeit]

A 1st round running back would not be sitting on the bench but would be backed up by the likes of Pittman, Young and Torain.
The RB's are injured because they are asked to do things that they are not suited for.
Our passing game is suffering because we have become 1 dimensional in our offense and the Defenses are teeing off on Jay and the passing game. I am surprised they are doing as well as they have without a consistent running game.

There is no way of knowing if a 1st round RB would be hurt or not? I agree we could do better at the RB position, however, we would be doing a lot better if the guys we already have wasn't on IR right now.

This keeps going back to we need a better running back to be a better team. I don't disagree with that. I don't know if anyone disagrees with that? All I'm saying is despite our running game, there are ways to improve a passing attack that don't involve having AD in the backfield. I'm not sure Shanahan can have a successful passing attack without a 1000 yard runner in the backfield.. At least I have never seen it.

His system is set up around having a capable back, So what happens when we don't have that? Most coaches in this league can win if they have the best players. What separates the good coaches from the great is the ability to work up a successful game plan with the talent you have. Like it or not, we don't have a true RB threat in the backfield, does that mean our season is over? Should they all just pack up and go home? If our FO can't find a way to win with what we have now, this season is over. Do we have faith they can do it?

Just like the Giants, can they win without Burras and Jacobs? If they don't find a way to open up other avenues of success, their season is over.

[fcspikeit]

Shanahan doesn't fumble the ball, miss coverages, or injure his own players. With the injuries we have, guys playing offence and D, no real chance to gel any real consistant team together etc...with all that's gone on we really aren't in that bad of a situation. Look at the jets, skins, chargers, jags and others with a lot more than we have and doing a whole lot less, all this stuff has to be addressed in the offseason, but the last thing our team needs is our own fans and players not beliving that we at least have a slim shot of still doing a couple of big things this year, we're starting to cry way too early. It's like me giving my kids and early christmas gift to open just to have them bitch about it Let's deal with what we got and worry about the rest after the season. Open the gift and play with it let's stop crying that we got the bratz instead of barbie. How far in first do we have to be to win the super bowl ??? We head into it like the pats and loose when it really matters or be like the giants take our bumps and just pray for a divine intervention. Our team has already shown this year we can beat the nfc all star team on the road one week and loose to USC the next. But if we do who cares how. Nothing is going to change this late in the season our best hope is to get some guys back of injury and let's make the biggest push we can. We're in first damn place on our way probably to the playoffs lets be happy for that. Not complain cause we aren't in super first place and winning every game by 50. Anything short of the superbowl is a failure but look how far we've already come compared to a lot of other teams, i'm in no way content but i am appreciative that for what our guys have been able to do this year so far. A little more of that and maybe the players will belive more as well. Would you rather be a bengal, raider, or chief fan these days...they have a real reason to cry.


Come on,

Does it really sound like that's what I'm doing? Of course things could be a lot worse. Things could always be worse. What exactly does that have to do with anything?

We either have a chance to do something this year, with the guys we have or we don't. It's pretty clear if we have a chance, it has to come from the passing game. From what most everyone is saying, they don't really believe we can have success on offense without a legitimate running game.

I believe we can have success on offense passing the ball 65% of the time. If I didn't believe that, there would be no reason to suggest we are underachieving in that department.

I have in no way given up, anything can happen. If we can get some things worked out, this team could surprise some people down the stretch. However, we have no chance of doing that with the offensive scheme we seen on Sunday.

From the FO to the players, the Broncos have to step up their game... At the end of the day, there will always be excuses, they don't help you win games. Either they can find a way to get it done, or we wont. I believe the way is out there, we still have enough talent to get it done.

[Poet]

I'm talking about creativity in our passing game, The Colts had a one dimensional attack for years and they still managed to have open guys. They didn't win the SB until they got a running game. I'm not talking about being good enough to win the SB with a one dimensional passing attack.

There is a big difference between that and being able to put a pocket passing scheme together that actually works.

The Colts usually have a running back with 1200 yards or more.

They also have one of the best QBs to ever play the game.

They have a much worse running game when they won the SB. Their defense showed up in the playoffs and carried the offense. The Colts offense was average throughout the playoffs at best.

Even in the Superbowl.

[fcspikeit]

The Colts usually have a running back with 1200 yards or more.

They also have one of the best QBs to ever play the game.

They have a much worse running game when they won the SB. Their defense showed up in the playoffs and carried the offense. The Colts offense was average throughout the playoffs at best.

Even in the Superbowl.

Your right, the Colts won the Super with a lot more then a passing attack..

the only reason I brought up the Colts was because they were a passing team, that is to say, if you could stop their passing attack you could beat them.

Even despite the fact the Colts kept getting beat out by the Pats, they were a winning team. Because of their passing attack, you had better bring your a game if you want a chance to beat them. That is not the case for us. Most times if you even show up and play for 2 Quarters you can beat us.

We are not in their league, I didn't mean to imply that, I was just using them to point out, you can win a lot of games with a pocket passing attack. Sure you need more then that to win it all, But seriously, who is talking about that? There is a far cry from us having a shot at the SB and what we seen last Sunday.

We scored 10 points! We would have to have a pitt type defense to have any hope of winning games only scoring 10 points. Had we scored 24, we would be talking about how our defense needs to improve for us to have a chance to win big games.

I'm not for a secant letting the D off the hook, the scheme and play on that side of the ball was every bit as bad as that of the offense. However, we have more talent on offense, so I do expect more out of them. Had they played all year the way they did on Sunday, how many games would we have won? SD would be looking to win the division with their 6 wins.

At the end of the year, no matter what, we all will be able to look back and say, the glass is half full. Right now I am saying we still have a chance, it don't have to come to that! They can finish strong and play their butts off. Why start making excuses for this season when it's not even over yet..

We will have the entire off season to do that. :D Right now I expect them to do what needs to be done to finish this season like winners.

[Shazam!]

Ok. Why mention Jake Plummer here I do not know. If Jake was the QB of this team, SD would be winning the West at 8-8 I am convinced. With so much dependence on the passing game now due to the lack of a running game, Jake would be killing the Broncos if he had to throw it 40 or more times every week.

If (when) Denver makes the Playoffs and they can somehow get a W, there will be no more talk of how 'At least Jake led the Broncos into the postseason,' or 'Jake won games for us' as I have read here in the past. In Less than 3 years as a Starter, Jay has a chance to equal that postseason success with a 1st round Playoff win (however unlikely it may be,) on a team decimated by injuries. Not bad for what is technically a 2nd year starter.

I am, and always have been critical of Mike Shanahan in the post-Elway era, since the Dale Carter signing and firing Greg Robinson (great way to repay a 'friend' who helped you win 2 titles.) Shanahan has managed to salvage a season that looked nearly lost in October, into a Playoff berth with either a SD loss and a Broncos win. I don't want to hear how awful the AFCW is. This is the Division Denver plays in and the goal is to win it.

I didn't hear anyone critical about Shanahan's playcalling or gameplan when the Broncos laid the smackdown on a pretty damn good Bretts team in NY. Denver had a running back then. This team will come and go with a Back. They desperately need a featured Back since Portis was dealt. None of us know if Aldridge or Torain can be the guy. Expect Drafted RBs and undrafted FA RBs in 2009. Knowing Shanahan as we do, I believe he will find the one.

I agree us Broncos fans have had a tough few years, getting accostomed to seasons slightly better than mediocrity. But this is what we all asked for. This is what the Broncos needed, instead of Shanahan's past efforts at building the 'Super Broncos' to try and duplicate the successes of yesteryear's Elway-led Broncos. We wanted them to get younger and have better Drafts. No more Simeon Rices, Daryl Gardners, Lional Daltons, Chester McGlocktons, Travis Henrys, Browncos... etc. etc.

Many of us wanted a young and dynamic QB, we are watching him develop before our eyes, and most experts and analysts I've read and listened to agree that he has a brilliant future in Denver.

The only huge complaints and changes I want next year (though they will not happen,) is a new DLine Coach or a pass rush specialist like Teerlinick who was here back in the day to help an anemic and borderline disgraceful DLine. 60 Dlinemen can't ALL SUCK. Shanahan needs a new Strength and Conditioning Coach too and a whole new approach. No more practice w/o pads. Two seasons in a row and this team is decimated by injuries. There has to be a bettter way.

The Broncos aren't that far away. A Division title and playoff game would do wonders for a great group of young guys in the future.

Go Tampa. Go Broncos :defense:

[Tned]

Right now the offense lives and dies on the type of day Jay has. When he is forcing throws and throwing behind guys, chances are the Broncos are going to lose. When he is looking for his tight ends and the crossing routes, and taking the occasional deep shot, and has his accuracy, then the Broncos offense typically plays well.

The Broncos defense played well enough for the Broncos to win, if it wasn't for the turnovers by the offense and if they had been more successful at moving the ball. Granted, they gave up some big passes to Smith, and one long run to Williams, but very few people would have expected the Broncos to slow down the Panther's running game as much as they did.

Now, in Cutler's defense, the fact that we clearly went into the game with the plan to throw early and often, combined with a good pass rushing team on the other side, and the deck was a bit stacked. However, on the other hand, if Cutler had started off and remained accurate, then he might have opened up the running game.

Either way, I am far from panic mode. This defense has gotten consistently better in the second half of the year. We have held some pretty good backs in 'relative' check in the second half of the season, and when Jay is on, the offense can be nearly unstoppable.

If we win one of the next two, and get in the playoffs, I still think we can be a dangerous team and make a run.

[broncogirl7]

I don't care how bad we played I NEVER want to see or hear the name Jake Plummer.
That era is over. We are rebuilding and hopefully Shanahan will pull his head out of the sand and stop experimenting. Why couldn't we play yesterday like we did the week before. Why experiment during the freaking game? Experiment in practice. Oh and DJ...stop saying you are 100% and ready to play and then when you play like shit...suddenly you are not 100%. Sit your ass on the bench until you are 100%!

[gobroncsnv]

Shanny's offenses have always been about keeping the other guys off-balance, when we are at our best. The ability to run a LOT of different plays out of the same formation. Right now, as was previously mentioned, when we're set up in shotgun for the majority of our plays, it's just a concession that we're not gonna butter the bread with a ground attack. The D doesn't have to stack the line with even 7 in the box against us, 'cause we're not gonna sustain a ground attack.
Our 4 receivers can't find a lot of daylight against a 7 man secondary. Once 'lina figured we couldn't tote the rock, their backers just had to either blitz or bail on every snap. We're pretty easy to figure out right now, because we don't present a lot of options.
I don't think the difference between the Jets and the Panthers defenses amounts to a 24 point swing against us. We lost our chance at this game yesterday when we lost Hillis last week.

[fcspikeit]

Ok. Why mention Jake Plummer here I do not know. If Jake was the QB of this team, SD would be winning the West at 8-8 I am convinced. With so much dependence on the passing game now due to the lack of a running game, Jake would be killing the Broncos if he had to throw it 40 or more times every week.

Please everyone, lets not turn this into another Jay VS Jake thread.. I was in no way shape or form even hinting a little bit, we should have kept Plummer over Cutler. Everyone who know me also knows I supported the move to Cutler. I am a Cutler supporter to a fault..

The only reason I brought up Plummer was to point out Shanahan was going away from his formula of success when we drafted Cutler. It was said he wanted to go to more of a pocket passing scheme. I was trying to point that out to the post who suggested we couldn't just change from what Shanahan knows..


If (when) Denver makes the Playoffs and they can somehow get a W, there will be no more talk of how 'At least Jake led the Broncos into the postseason,' or 'Jake won games for us' as I have read here in the past. In Less than 3 years as a Starter, Jay has a chance to equal that postseason success with a 1st round Playoff win (however unlikely it may be,) on a team decimated by injuries. Not bad for what is technically a 2nd year starter.

I am, and always have been critical of Mike Shanahan in the post-Elway era, since the Dale Carter signing and firing Greg Robinson (great way to repay a 'friend' who helped you win 2 titles.) Shanahan has managed to salvage a season that looked nearly lost in October, into a Playoff berth with either a SD loss and a Broncos win. I don't want to hear how awful the AFCW is. This is the Division Denver plays in and the goal is to win it.

I didn't hear anyone critical about Shanahan's playcalling or gameplan when the Broncos laid the smackdown on a pretty damn good Bretts team in NY. Denver had a running back then. This team will come and go with a Back. They desperately need a featured Back since Portis was dealt. None of us know if Aldridge or Torain can be the guy. Expect Drafted RBs and undrafted FA RBs in 2009. Knowing Shanahan as we do, I believe he will find the one.

Why would anyone criticize his game plan when it works? If he gets credit for having a good game plan when it works, shouldn’t he also get blame when it doesn’t?


I agree us Broncos fans have had a tough few years, getting accostomed to seasons slightly better than mediocrity. But this is what we all asked for. This is what the Broncos needed, instead of Shanahan's past efforts at building the 'Super Broncos' to try and duplicate the successes of yesteryear's Elway-led Broncos. We wanted them to get younger and have better Drafts. No more Simeon Rices, Daryl Gardners, Lional Daltons, Chester McGlocktons, Travis Henrys, Browncos... etc. etc.

Many of us wanted a young and dynamic QB, we are watching him develop before our eyes, and most experts and analysts I've read and listened to agree that he has a brilliant future in Denver.

The only huge complaints and changes I want next year (though they will not happen,) is a new DLine Coach or a pass rush specialist like Teerlinick who was here back in the day to help an anemic and borderline disgraceful DLine. 60 Dlinemen can't ALL SUCK. Shanahan needs a new Strength and Conditioning Coach too and a whole new approach. No more practice w/o pads. Two seasons in a row and this team is decimated by injuries. There has to be a bettter way.

The Broncos aren't that far away. A Division title and playoff game would do wonders for a great group of young guys in the future.

Go Tampa. Go Broncos :defense:


Your talking about changes for next year, I’m saying, the season isn’t over, we can still win this year! We can worry about getting better players in the off season. I want us to win this year. If it is possible to do anything over the next few weeks, we will have to do it with what we have now. Either we believe we have a good enough team to get the job done or we don’t. If we believe we have a better team then what we seen on Sunday, someone needs to pull their head out of their butt and give the guys we have now a better chance to win games.

[Lonestar]

Your talking about changes for next year, I’m saying, the season isn’t over, we can still win this year! We can worry about getting better players in the off season. I want us to win this year. If it is possible to do anything over the next few weeks, we will have to do it with what we have now. Either we believe we have a good enough team to get the job done or we don’t. If we believe we have a better team then what we seen on Sunday, someone needs to pull their head out of their butt and give the guys we have now a better chance to win games.



Lets see how the kiddies play with gusto perhaps they can salvage something that the normal starters seem not to have the passion for..other wise


"this season is done stick a fork in it"..

[Shazam!]

Your talking about changes for next year, I’m saying, the season isn’t over, we can still win this year! We can worry about getting better players in the off season. I want us to win this year. If it is possible to do anything over the next few weeks, we will have to do it with what we have now. Either we believe we have a good enough team to get the job done or we don’t. If we believe we have a better team then what we seen on Sunday, someone needs to pull their head out of their butt and give the guys we have now a better chance to win games.

If you are going strictly by the Carolina game, the Panthers are MUCH better than the Broncos with the exception of maybe a few positions, period.

There are a number of teams that if Denver meets in the playoffs I believe they'd be in trouble. There are a lot of physical teams in the AFC playoffs like Baltimore, Pitt and Miami, and a couple of high scoring teams in Indy and NE.

I'm a fan to the bone, but the Broncos are not that good. If they lose Sunday to an awful Bills team that handed the NY Bretts the game Sunday, they deserve to go to SD and get their asses kicked. Frankly, if it comes to the one game in SD, I don't have the confidence Denver can win it after what I witnessed so far. SD would be fired up for that game big time. The Broncos aren't known for getting motivated and emotional with Shanahan.

A Division title and a playoff win, I'd be extremely happy with that this season after an awful 2007. It would show improvement. It'd be a building block for a young core of players and our 3rd year QB.

[Shazam!]

The Broncos aren't that good offensively because of their RB situation. That's all. It's very simple really.

Denver runs well- They win.

[fcspikeit]

What was your question?:confused:

"Do you still believe in Shanahans ability to put a creative offensive scheme together? One that actually works and don’t require 5 + successful bootlegs to be affective"

[fcspikeit]

The Broncos aren't that good offensively because of their RB situation. That's all. It's very simple really.

Denver runs well- They win.

So then you don't believe Shanahan can put a pocket passing game plan together that will work. He has to have a run game to set up the boots and play action...

Many teams have had a lot of success passing the ball without a dominant run game. Shanahan however never has. His success in the passing game has always been set up from his teams ability to run the ball.

Great offensive coaches find a way to attack defenses with their teams strength.

[Shazam!]

Few teams nowadays are able to have a dominant passing game without a good or even decent ground attack. Shanahan's Broncos teams have always come and gone with the running game that sets up everything else.

Your concerns are legitmate, but it is turning into a fire Shanahan-type thing. I do NOT put Shanahan on this god-like pedestal either as some do, but with such a year as it has been, he has managed to put this team in a good position with all the injuries he had to deal with.

As a longtime Broncos fan with pretty shaky expectations for this season, with all the injuries, a borderline awful defense that has a non-existent pass rush (AGAIN,) and a third year (technically second) QB who I believe will be a top-tier NFL QB, I am pretty happy they will likely win the AFC West next Sunday.

If someone told you (or me) in August 'Would you take a Division title and the 3rd or 4th Seed as Denver's finish?" I believe you (and me) would have said hell yeah.

[omac]

I agree with Shazam! and King87; teams need a good rushing offense to be able to attack an opponent's defense. Like King87 said, the Colts have always had a pretty consistent rushing attack, and in the superbowl that they won recently, they played a pretty ball controlled offense, relying heavily on their rushing attack. The rushing offense also helped Peyton settle down.

Not surprisingly, in the stretch this season where the Colts were losing, Addai was severely underperforming, and unsurprisingly, Peyton looked terrible.

You need at least a decent rushing offense to keep teams with good defenses honest, otherwise their defense pigeonholes your offense. On the other end of the spectrum, why has Eli looked so good? Could it have something to do with the Giants strong rushing offense? What happens when the Giants lose Brandon Jacobs and play the Cowboys? A sputtering rushing offense, and Eli having 191 yards and 2 INTs.

Even though our rushing offense hasn't been great this season, it's at least been good enough when we had Hillis, Torrain, Pittman, and even (to a small extent) a healthy Selvin Young and Andre Hall. With them, we had play-action as well as the screens/bubble screens.

On the play calling, I like that Bates is aggressive, but he gives up on the run way too easily. Also, on 3rd and 2 or 3, he'll likes going for a pass play. One of my favorite play calls of his this season was when it was 3rd and 2, and he went with a running play up the middle. We failed to get the 1st down, but at least it wasn't one of his "surprise" deep throws; it was the right play.

In order to run the ball well, you have to keep at it, even when it's not working. Problem with that approach is that you need a defense that you can somewhat rely on. By his playcalling, he obviously has no respect for the Broncos defense.

The offensive plays of Shannahan are still great; we cheer them whenever they work, but get down on them when they don't. :D But without a rushing offense, any passing offense can look really bad.

Although Selvin isn't great, and he may be playing with an injury, I at least liked the effort of trying to get more yards. I was annoyed with Tatum in a play wherein he was rushing to the outside left, and he wasn't going anywhere, then he proceeded to go out of bounds .... I would've at least wanted him to dip his shoulder and try to get 1 or 2 extra yards.

Unless we can unearth a practice squad gem or FA RB to immediately make an impact, our team is dead in the water. I wonder if the Steelers' former backup RB is still out of a job.

[fcspikeit]

I agree with Shazam! and King87; teams need a good rushing offense to be able to attack an opponent's defense. Like King87 said, the Colts have always had a pretty consistent rushing attack, and in the superbowl that they won recently, they played a pretty ball controlled offense, relying heavily on their rushing attack. The rushing offense also helped Peyton settle down.

Not surprisingly, in the stretch this season where the Colts were losing, Addai was severely underperforming, and unsurprisingly, Peyton looked terrible.

You need at least a decent rushing offense to keep teams with good defenses honest, otherwise their defense pigeonholes your offense. On the other end of the spectrum, why has Eli looked so good? Could it have something to do with the Giants strong rushing offense? What happens when the Giants lose Brandon Jacobs and play the Cowboys? A sputtering rushing offense, and Eli having 191 yards and 2 INTs.

Even though our rushing offense hasn't been great this season, it's at least been good enough when we had Hillis, Torrain, Pittman, and even (to a small extent) a healthy Selvin Young and Andre Hall. With them, we had play-action as well as the screens/bubble screens.

On the play calling, I like that Bates is aggressive, but he gives up on the run way too easily. Also, on 3rd and 2 or 3, he'll likes going for a pass play. One of my favorite play calls of his this season was when it was 3rd and 2, and he went with a running play up the middle. We failed to get the 1st down, but at least it wasn't one of his "surprise" deep throws; it was the right play.

In order to run the ball well, you have to keep at it, even when it's not working. Problem with that approach is that you need a defense that you can somewhat rely on. By his playcalling, he obviously has no respect for the Broncos defense.

The offensive plays of Shannahan are still great; we cheer them whenever they work, but get down on them when they don't. :D But without a rushing offense, any passing offense can look really bad.

Although Selvin isn't great, and he may be playing with an injury, I at least liked the effort of trying to get more yards. I was annoyed with Tatum in a play wherein he was rushing to the outside left, and he wasn't going anywhere, then he proceeded to go out of bounds .... I would've at least wanted him to dip his shoulder and try to get 1 or 2 extra yards.

Unless we can unearth a practice squad gem or FA RB to immediately make an impact, our team is dead in the water. I wonder if the Steelers' former backup RB is still out of a job.

I agree with you, in fact I agree with most everyone who has posted here.

I still however feel we could be doing more. IMO almost every pass play has the same look and feel. Even when we are going deep it's not an over the top throw. Cutler is trying to stick the ball in instead of letting the WR's speed get separation running under the ball.

I would like to see more underneath crossing routs, like Eddy Mac use to do. I would like to see us get creative off the WR screen. Have one thrown back to Cutler, like we have done in the past.

I know we can't run the creative out of norm plays all the time, But we could mix them in here and there to try and get big plays.. We could run more QB designed running plays, something like the Bretts did last week.

The simplest solution would be to get a running game. I don't see that happening this late in the year. If where going to do anything this year it has to come from the passing game.

Our pass could also set up the run. Even though we're throwing it a lot the CB;s are still in press coverage with at least 7 in the box. With our receiving weapons we should be able to beat the 3 cover guys they have on the field. If nothing else, force the defense into dime. If we could do that I believe even Tatur could have some success running the ball.

[fcspikeit]

Few teams nowadays are able to have a dominant passing game without a good or even decent ground attack. Shanahan's Broncos teams have always come and gone with the running game that sets up everything else.

Your concerns are legitmate, but it is turning into a fire Shanahan-type thing. I do NOT put Shanahan on this god-like pedestal either as some do, but with such a year as it has been, he has managed to put this team in a good position with all the injuries he had to deal with.

As a longtime Broncos fan with pretty shaky expectations for this season, with all the injuries, a borderline awful defense that has a non-existent pass rush (AGAIN,) and a third year (technically second) QB who I believe will be a top-tier NFL QB, I am pretty happy they will likely win the AFC West next Sunday.

If someone told you (or me) in August 'Would you take a Division title and the 3rd or 4th Seed as Denver's finish?" I believe you (and me) would have said hell yeah.

We are pretty much on the same page bro..

I am laying a lot of blame on Shanahan and It might sound like it at times but I am not saying we should fire Shanahan. As we know, the NFL evolves, coaches who once had a creative formula for winning runs its course. Defenses figure an offensive game plan out. At that point there must be changes to the formula. IMO we can't live and die off the boot's and play action pass anymore. I think Shanahan knows this, I believe that's one of the main reasons he drafted Cutler.

I don't know if he can pull that off is all. He has never shown he can have a consistent winning formula that don't require us running the ball setting up the boots and play action. I want to believe he can, I'm just not seeing it.

Another thing is, as the NFL seems to be going, the teams with dominant defenses are ruling the league. Week after week, we see the teams with the better defenses coming out on top. Shanahan has always been an offensive minded coach. Even in the SB years we won games with the offense. We were beating teams with better defenses. I know we can't expect to score 30+ every game. Our D has to get better for us to be in the top level of the NFL. But I do expect us to score 21 + every game. IMO, if were not scoring in the 20s our O isn't doing it's job

[omac]

I agree with you, in fact I agree with most everyone who has posted here.

I still however feel we could be doing more. IMO almost every pass play has the same look and feel. Even when we are going deep it's not an over the top throw. Cutler is trying to stick the ball in instead of letting the WR's speed get separation running under the ball.

I think that has to do more with the coverages. Teams usually have someone back to defend against the deep ball against Cutler, and specially with Marshall, they have him covered both short and deep. When they don't, he makes them pay ... the deep one to Scheffler to start one game, the one to Eddie Royal against the Browns for a TD, the roll-out pass to Stokley for a TD (can't recall if that was against the Jets or the Falcons), the one over defenders heads to Marshall in the middle-end of the endzone where Marshall had concentrate on landing each foot in ... those were lobbed over defenders heads, not zipped into them. Also, I think it was the Browns game where he was lobbing balls in between coverages ... very dangerous, but he was doing them well.


I would like to see more underneath crossing routs, like Eddy Mac use to do. I would like to see us get creative off the WR screen. Have one thrown back to Cutler, like we have done in the past.

Stokley goes through the middle a lot. We still see Marshall doing some timed slants, although not as much as Javon did when he was the #1. Graham's also caught some over the middle. We've had a few good screens this season; the one to get Marshall into the endzone, the one to almost get Graham a 1st down. On some fancy plays, the fake handoff to Hillis(?) and quick pitch to Royal that was as effective as a reverse, getting Royal some good rushing yards.


I know we can't run the creative out of norm plays all the time, But we could mix them in here and there to try and get big plays.. We could run more QB designed running plays, something like the Bretts did last week.

We do mix the creative stuff in, in fact my problem with the Broncos isn't that they aren't creative in their passing game; it's that Bates usually gets too cute with his passing plays, instead of leaning on the run when the situation warrants it. Sometimes the situation demands a running play, the defense is set up against the run, but you still run anyway.

A lot of Cutler's runs this season have been situational; he reads the defense and sees the opening for a run, or he finds an opening for rushing while scrambling looking for open receivers. Personally, I don't want our franchise QB to look to run, and I'd call less designed plays where he'd run. That can only lead to injury. If you have decent RBs, there should be little reason to risk having your QB rush the ball with some frequency.

Let the heavy rushing be done by QBs who don't know how to read defenses and dart at the first instance they can ... Vince Young, Michael Vick, Byron Leftwich, etc.

They have been creative in finding ways to get their playmakers into rushing the ball, like the way they do with Royal, and some of the screens to Marshall emulate running plays.


The simplest solution would be to get a running game. I don't see that happening this late in the year. If where going to do anything this year it has to come from the passing game.

Yeah, although we've had bad luck with injuries, we've been fortunate on just how many productive RBs have stepped up this season out of nowhere. I guess we were bound to finally run out of luck on that one after five. :D


Our pass could also set up the run. Even though we're throwing it a lot the CB;s are still in press coverage with at least 7 in the box. With our receiving weapons we should be able to beat the 3 cover guys they have on the field. If nothing else, force the defense into dime. If we could do that I believe even Tatur could have some success running the ball.

Our passing offense this season always has been the one setting up the run, and not the other way around. Although we've had some productive RBs, the rushing offense hasn't been up to par at all. Before finally having to rely on Bell and Pope, our passing offense has opened up the game for our rushing offense.

With the plays you've described, though, that sounds a lot like a hit or miss thing. Deep throws aren't very successful with proper coverage. Besides being hit or miss, they're sound dangerous. Our offense has actually been doing very well moving the ball. They've also been extremely good in the red zone. Though Bates loves to pass, he usually calls high percentage pass plays, and we could see how effective they are in the results ... we're among the top in passing yardages, passing TDs, red zone, and 3rd down completion percentage. That's all despite having a sub-par rushing offense.

Truth is, this game, we needed our RBs to be able to get 3 to 4 solid yards when we called up them, but they couldn't do it; Pittman could, Torrain could, Hillis could, and even an uninjured Young and Hall (before he fumbled) could, but Bell and Pope couldn't. When that happened, our offense played the way their defense prepared for them. They executed their defensive game plan perfectly because our rushing was so ineffective. That was game over before the game was over.

[fcspikeit]

I think that has to do more with the coverages. Teams usually have someone back to defend against the deep ball against Cutler, and specially with Marshall, they have him covered both short and deep. When they don't, he makes them pay ... the deep one to Scheffler to start one game, the one to Eddie Royal against the Browns for a TD, the roll-out pass to Stokley for a TD (can't recall if that was against the Jets or the Falcons), the one over defenders heads to Marshall in the middle-end of the endzone where Marshall had concentrate on landing each foot in ... those were lobbed over defenders heads, not zipped into them. Also, I think it was the Browns game where he was lobbing balls in between coverages ... very dangerous, but he was doing them well.


The deep pass to Stockey came against the Jets and it was a bootleg set up off Hillis being able to run the ball. I wasn't saying Cutler can't throw with touch, he has worked on that and IMO done really well dropping the ball in on the intermediate routs. What I was talking about was the deep throw. When was the last time you seen Cutler put the ball 65 yards in the air? His farthest pass this year, only traveled 50 yards in the air. He under threw Marshall on a deep ball that lead to a pick, it only traveled 50 yards in the air. On both cases he didn't really throw the deep ball, instead he threw a hard ball a long ways :D. It was as if he were trying to stick the ball on the receiver instead of throwing it out there and letting them go get it.


Another thing, if Marshall has the constant double team, CB short and FS deep, wouldn't that open things up for Royal, Stokley and Shefftler? Royal can't beat his man 1 on 1 on the go rout?

Stokley goes through the middle a lot. We still see Marshall doing some timed slants, although not as much as Javon did when he was the #1. Graham's also caught some over the middle. We've had a few good screens this season; the one to get Marshall into the endzone, the one to almost get Graham a 1st down. On some fancy plays, the fake handoff to Hillis(?) and quick pitch to Royal that was as effective as a reverse, getting Royal some good rushing yards.


The Slot and TE’s normally go threw the middle. I was mainly talking about the WR coming underneath after the Slot and TE’s have cleared the middle out going deep. We did that on the opening drive, Stokley went deep and Marshall came across underneath. We used to do that with Eddy Mac all the time. Marshall is a big body, it would be a high percentage play, I will take Marshall running across the middle with a defender giving chase all day, and twice on Sunday. It takes the FS double team away because he us underneath him.



We do mix the creative stuff in, in fact my problem with the Broncos isn't that they aren't creative in their passing game; it's that Bates usually gets too cute with his passing plays, instead of leaning on the run when the situation warrants it. Sometimes the situation demands a running play, the defense is set up against the run, but you still run anyway.


I agree, when we need 1 yard we have to be able to get it on the ground. There were times even when we had Hillis they would try and throw the ball or give it to someone else. When was the last time we seen a QB sneek?



A lot of Cutler's runs this season have been situational; he reads the defense and sees the opening for a run, or he finds an opening for rushing while scrambling looking for open receivers. Personally, I don't want our franchise QB to look to run, and I'd call less designed plays where he'd run. That can only lead to injury. If you have decent RBs, there should be little reason to risk having your QB rush the ball with some frequency.

Let the heavy rushing be done by QBs who don't know how to read defenses and dart at the first instance they can ... Vince Young, Michael Vick, Byron Leftwich, etc.

Rushing up the middle of the field is a bad idea, but coming around the edge where the QB can get out of bounds instead of taking a hit wouldn’t be a bad thing. However, running the QB isn’t the solution to our running game :D but it could be good for 15 – 30 yards a game



They have been creative in finding ways to get their playmakers into rushing the ball, like the way they do with Royal, and some of the screens to Marshall emulate running plays.

We get in wr screen mode and run it 10 times a game. Someone needs to tell Shanny the WR screen won’t work when the defense is in press coverage. You have to throw some deep balls over their head to get them to back up. Even if it’s over the WR’s head. Do it on 1st down when you see their in press. If the CB believes you will throw it deep, he won’t be so eager to keep his shoulders to the endzone ready to jump the rout.

I would also like to see us run more HB screens.



Yeah, although we've had bad luck with injuries, we've been fortunate on just how many productive RBs have stepped up this season out of nowhere. I guess we were bound to finally run out of luck on that one after five. :D


The thing is, we don’t need a stud RB if we can force the defenders out of the box, we should be able to run the ball with just about anyone back there against 5 or 6 guys. Our pass should force them to drop 5 or 6 into coverage



Our passing offense this season always has been the one setting up the run, and not the other way around. Although we've had some productive RBs, the rushing offense hasn't been up to par at all. Before finally having to rely on Bell and Pope, our passing offense has opened up the game for our rushing offense.

With the plays you've described, though, that sounds a lot like a hit or miss thing. Deep throws aren't very successful with proper coverage. Besides being hit or miss, they're sound dangerous. Our offense has actually been doing very well moving the ball. They've also been extremely good in the red zone. Though Bates loves to pass, he usually calls high percentage pass plays, and we could see how effective they are in the results ... we're among the top in passing yardages, passing TDs, red zone, and 3rd down completion percentage. That's all despite having a sub-par rushing offense.


they haven’t been bad, But I see no reason why we shouldn’t be able to get 20+ completions a game out of our WR’s, 10+ out of our TE’s. and 5+ out of the backfield. There might be some give and take, but they shouldn’t be able to stop everything. Cutler has enough time to find open guys, we just need to give him more open guys to find




Truth is, this game, we needed our RBs to be able to get 3 to 4 solid yards when we called up them, but they couldn't do it; Pittman could, Torrain could, Hillis could, and even an uninjured Young and Hall (before he fumbled) could, but Bell and Pope couldn't. When that happened, our offense played the way their defense prepared for them. They executed their defensive game plan perfectly because our rushing was so ineffective. That was game over before the game was over.

Young got tackled by a couple fingers on the one 3rd down. He had a lot of room and could have got the 1st easily. It was a nice play by the defender diving in there, but come on. It made Young look like a chump. I’m curtain even I could have ran threw that tackle. Pope is a harder runner then both Young and Tature. I hope he gets the go on Sunday. If I ever see Bell get the ball on a short 3rd down again, it will have been to soon.

[omac]

When was the last time you seen Cutler put the ball 65 yards in the air? His farthest pass this year, only traveled 50 yards in the air. He under threw Marshall on a deep ball that lead to a pick, it only traveled 50 yards in the air. On both cases he didn't really throw the deep ball, instead he threw a hard ball a long ways . It was as if he were trying to stick the ball on the receiver instead of throwing it out there and letting them go get it.

Another thing, if Marshall has the constant double team, CB short and FS deep, wouldn't that open things up for Royal, Stokley and Shefftler? Royal can't beat his man 1 on 1 on the go rout?

I don't know if Cutler's put the ball 65 yards in the air this season; he could have and maybe it wasn't completed ... I can't remember, although quite a few of those deep passes did happen last 2 seasons for incompletions. Maybe they're going for higher percentage pass plays this season, and it's shown in the stats.


I was mainly talking about the WR coming underneath after the Slot and TE’s have cleared the middle out going deep. We did that on the opening drive, Stokley went deep and Marshall came across underneath. We used to do that with Eddy Mac all the time. Marshall is a big body, it would be a high percentage play, I will take Marshall running across the middle with a defender giving chase all day, and twice on Sunday. It takes the FS double team away because he us underneath him.

Marshall does catch some passes in the middle short, but I'd rather he not. Marshall's a big body, but he's also a big target for defenders. I'd rather he lay on the hits, instead of him getting hit a lot. That's our #1 WR. You don't see Randy Moss going through the middle too much; that's Welker's job. Stokley does a fine job giving Cutler a small, low target in the middle, where Cutler can put the ball low enough that only Stokley can make the play. Also, Stokley makes himself small enough so that he doesn't absorb too much hits. Each time he takes a big enough hit, he goes out of the game for a spell.

When we didn't have much of an OL with respect to pass protection, we had to get rid of the ball really fast, so most of the passes were very short, and guys like Javon were paying the price each time they caught the ball ... not something I'd want for our #1 WR.


I agree, when we need 1 yard we have to be able to get it on the ground. There were times even when we had Hillis they would try and throw the ball or give it to someone else. When was the last time we seen a QB sneek?

Yep, Bates flaw is that he's way too pass happy ... very little confidence in rushing.


Rushing up the middle of the field is a bad idea, but coming around the edge where the QB can get out of bounds instead of taking a hit wouldn’t be a bad thing. However, running the QB isn’t the solution to our running game but it could be good for 15 – 30 yards a game

I don't disagree, but I'd really rather not risk the health of our QB. He had an outside run against the Raiders in the earlier game, where Nandi tackled him low, hitting him in the knee area ... that could've easily been the season. I doubt Shanny would risk putting Cutler in that situation, unless it's a real necessity. That's the difference between winning one game, versus keeping your QB healthy for the whole season.


We get in wr screen mode and run it 10 times a game. Someone needs to tell Shanny the WR screen won’t work when the defense is in press coverage. You have to throw some deep balls over their head to get them to back up. Even if it’s over the WR’s head. Do it on 1st down when you see their in press. If the CB believes you will throw it deep, he won’t be so eager to keep his shoulders to the endzone ready to jump the rout.

I would also like to see us run more HB screens.

We've been forced into doing that because we don't have much of a rushing offense, but I don't disagree with your thinking. They'd probably risk deep balls more if they were more confident in their defense getting stops should the offense 3-and-out.


The thing is, we don’t need a stud RB if we can force the defenders out of the box, we should be able to run the ball with just about anyone back there against 5 or 6 guys. Our pass should force them to drop 5 or 6 into coverage

Our passing game has been supporting the run all season, but the deep, risky passes are a loss of a down when they don't work. Without a good rushing offense and without a dependable defense, we take much less risks with our passes in favor of moving the ball. It becomes more important not to waste a down on a low percentage play.

Also, regarding coverage .... I believe 2 of the sacks on Cutler against the Panthers were coverage sacks. Cutler had the time, but no receivers to throw to, precisely because Carolina was overplaying the pass. That's the situation we'd want ... if our RBs could consistently at least get 4 yards, which they couldn't.


they haven’t been bad, But I see no reason why we shouldn’t be able to get 20+ completions a game out of our WR’s, 10+ out of our TE’s. and 5+ out of the backfield. There might be some give and take, but they shouldn’t be able to stop everything. Cutler has enough time to find open guys, we just need to give him more open guys to find

Let's divide 20 completions per game to 3 WRs each game ... that's 6.67 receptions per WR, projected over 16 games, that's 106 receptions for each WR. 10 for 3 TEs per game would make each have 53 receptions, or 150 receptions total for our TEs. 5 for 2 RBs is 40 receptions each, for a total of 80 receptions for our RBs. Dude, there's not enough football for that, even if we don't run any rushing plays. Sounds nice, though. :cheers:

Truth is, our offense is fine. With one competent RB, that would balance it out. With a better rushing offense, we'd be close to unstoppable. Everything just looks worse after a bad loss.

[haroldthebarrel]

First off, this is not just another ski is falling, rant thread we see after each loss. It is an honest question I have for you, one I have been asking myself for the last couple years now.

I’m sure the loss today had something to do with this question making its rounds again. However, I want to point out, I felt we had a chance to win today, but I also knew we would have to overcome a lot to do so. That being said, the loss wasn’t unsuspected.

Even though the odds were we were going to lose today, something is still troubling me. I have stated in the past how I feel about Slowik and his ridicules schemes. But it’s not that. I mean we all knew going in, our D wasn’t going to stop them. Our D wasn’t going to win us the game. The Best we could hope for out of our D was to show up, fight hard and give our offense a chance to win the game. For the most part didn’t they do that?

I am not that disappointed in our defense today, maybe it’s just because I have grown accustom, to accepting their not very good. What I am disappointed in, is our offense.

It just feels like it doesn’t have to be this way. Do you know what I mean? We have talent on our offense. How can we have so much talent and be so flat? I’m not just talking about the individual play either. The entire game plan just seems flat to me. It’s basic to the core. It’s like there is very little planning/scheming involved. We send guys on individual routs and expect they will get open. We do not get open guys because our scheme has set it up. When someone is open, it’s because the receiver just beat his man or he wasn’t open at all and Cutler just made an amazing throw.

Where is the planning, the creativity? Really think about this, when was the last time we had an offensive game plan that was set up based on our opponent’s weakness? A game plan that didn’t solely revolve around the bootleg?

I truly believe we have way too much talent on offense to ever be stopped/shut down. Yet this seems to be the case more then half the time, just about every time the defense stops our bootlegs, our offensive scheme has nothing to offer.

I know cutler threw an INT to a covered guy, but do you really believe that is the problem with our offense? Isn’t that the real problem with our pocket passing scheme, there are no open guys? I mean really open. How can a defense cover all our receiving threats? How can they double Marshall every play, and someone not be wide open? It’s like they have 20 guys on the field. When we try and double a WR, there are always guys wide open. Hell, half the time, as in the case today, the doubled guy is wide open. So what gives? Why do other defenses make it look so easy to stop our 4 viable receiving threats and we make it look so hard to stop their 1? Seriously?

I’m not saying I have the answer. But clearly there has to be one. For instance, we couldn’t even cover Carolinas' 1 receiving threat. Imagine what they would have done to us if they had our 4. There would have been 2 or 3 guys running wide open on every play.

Why can’t Shanahan devise a plan to get at least one of our guys open? I see it all the time with other teams. The defender doesn’t have to fall down to get a guy open.

I guess that brings me to my question.

Do you still believe in Shanahans ability to put a creative offensive scheme together? One that actually works and don’t require 5 + successful bootlegs to be affective. I have always held Shanahan among the best offensive minds in the game. But I am not seeing that from our offense on Sundays, to tell you the truth, I haven’t seen that in a long time.

Is it just me? Are there open guys and Cutler just isn’t finding them?

In closing,

I’m not calling for Shanahans head, but I have lost a lot of faith in his offensive creativity. At one point I felt he could take less talent on offense and get more out of it then just about anyone, lately it seems we have as much talent on offense as anyone and are getting far less production then teams with less talent.

I think you are overreacting. We get a lot of yards, and we are pretty damn good on offense especially since we are so bad on give/takeaways.
Making us in fact a three point underdog on average in each game.

The only holdover from the offensive line is Hamilton which is one of the reasons Kupers dad states at the orangemane is why they are not as good at zoneblocking. They just lack the experience.

And then we have the insane rb injury situation.
Which I believe, the idea was to make us more pass oriented before the season. But I dont think it wold be too much at the expense of the running game. Our biggest plays has always been to a great degree off playaction designs.
I just think the idea was to become balanced. Let the pass open up the run and the run open up the pass.
And then we have the youth which really is never to underestimated.
Young players always make a few mistakes for every great play.
I just dont think scheming is to fault as much as other factors. A few games like the Oakland loss was bad, but even that could have worked with some better execution.

But all in all the future is set at the offensive line. Esp tackle.
The qb, TE, Wr positions are top ten perhaps top five in the league.
And what to do with Hillis?
And that is not even considering Cutler taking another step forward, because if he does, watch out Canton!

I just think we are being set up for the years ahead. It is just a feeling I get.

Now, that depends a lot on the defense to get at least average. We all have ranted there.

All in all, the future is bright. This offense will only get better and if we get a real rb we could be scoring like Vermeils KC and the other great offenses in league history. Not to mention our own SB years, though sadly we will never see another TD again I guess.

[fcspikeit]

I don't know if Cutler's put the ball 65 yards in the air this season; he could have and maybe it wasn't completed ... I can't remember, although quite a few of those deep passes did happen last 2 seasons for incompletions. Maybe they're going for higher percentage pass plays this season, and it's shown in the stats.


I missed the secant Raiders game, if he threw it over 50 this year, it would have had to of been in that game..


Marshall does catch some passes in the middle short, but I'd rather he not. Marshall's a big body, but he's also a big target for defenders. I'd rather he lay on the hits, instead of him getting hit a lot. That's our #1 WR. You don't see Randy Moss going through the middle too much; that's Welker's job. Stokley does a fine job giving Cutler a small, low target in the middle, where Cutler can put the ball low enough that only Stokley can make the play. Also, Stokley makes himself small enough so that he doesn't absorb too much hits. Each time he takes a big enough hit, he goes out of the game for a spell.

When we didn't have much of an OL with respect to pass protection, we had to get rid of the ball really fast, so most of the passes were very short, and guys like Javon were paying the price each time they caught the ball ... not something I'd want for our #1 WR.


Marshall is a different cat then both Javon and Moss. He is a possession receiver. He doesn’t have the speed to be a true deep thread and I don’t think his rout running is on par with guys like Moss. Think of it this way, if he didn’t have the strength to break tackles and run threw CB’s. What would make him special? It’s his biggest strength, without it he is just an average WR and IMO not good enough to be a true #1



Yep, Bates flaw is that he's way too pass happy ... very little confidence in rushing.


In his defense, except for Hillis we haven’t really had a guy who could be counted on in short yardage situations this year. Although, IMO he could have done more with Hillis on 3rd and short.



I don't disagree, but I'd really rather not risk the health of our QB. He had an outside run against the Raiders in the earlier game, where Nandi tackled him low, hitting him in the knee area ... that could've easily been the season. I doubt Shanny would risk putting Cutler in that situation, unless it's a real necessity. That's the difference between winning one game, versus keeping your QB healthy for the whole season.


I hear yeah, We can’t afford to lose Cutler. All the rats would be jumping of the sinking ship if we did :D There are always risk’s, the trick is finding the best risk reword combo.



We've been forced into doing that because we don't have much of a rushing offense, but I don't disagree with your thinking. They'd probably risk deep balls more if they were more confident in their defense getting stops should the offense 3-and-out.


At some point we have to go for broke, with this D there is just no way we win another game this year only scoring 10 points. You have to take what the defense gives you, If they take away the short, then you have to at least try and go deep once and a while. If we hit a couple deep plays it will force them to back up and open up the short. We were going 3 and out anyways because they were taking away the short stuff. With that being said, what is a bigger risk, playing to their strength or the risky deep throws? We know sticking to the short only got us 10 points, how much worse could it have been going deep a couple times? Hell even if they get the pick off the deep ball, it will still make them have to worry about you throwing it deep and that alone would help the short passing game



Our passing game has been supporting the run all season, but the deep, risky passes are a loss of a down when they don't work. Without a good rushing offense and without a dependable defense, we take much less risks with our passes in favor of moving the ball. It becomes more important not to waste a down on a low percentage play.

Also, regarding coverage .... I believe 2 of the sacks on Cutler against the Panthers were coverage sacks. Cutler had the time, but no receivers to throw to, precisely because Carolina was overplaying the pass. That's the situation we'd want ... if our RBs could consistently at least get 4 yards, which they couldn't.


Your right, they couldn’t take advantage of the defense playing the pass. What use is there in a RB who can’t even run when they only have 6 guys in the box? It’s mind blowing that their could be guys playing in the NFL who are that bad. I have seen guys on Pro’s vs Joes who could do more then that.




Let's divide 20 completions per game to 3 WRs each game ... that's 6.67 receptions per WR, projected over 16 games, that's 106 receptions for each WR. 10 for 3 TEs per game would make each have 53 receptions, or 150 receptions total for our TEs. 5 for 2 RBs is 40 receptions each, for a total of 80 receptions for our RBs. Dude, there's not enough football for that, even if we don't run any rushing plays. Sounds nice, though. :cheers:


It wouldn’t have to be the same 3 WR, the total would be divided through out every WR who has played. The same for the TE’s and HB’s. 20 + 10 + 5 = 35 completions a game. That is a lot but IMO achievable.



Truth is, our offense is fine. With one competent RB, that would balance it out. With a better rushing offense, we'd be close to unstoppable. Everything just looks worse after a bad loss.

Your right, everything looks worse after a bad loss. It’s one thing when you have 1 or 2 bad losses a season, we seem to have one every 3rd game or so.

[fcspikeit]

I think you are overreacting. We get a lot of yards, and we are pretty damn good on offense especially since we are so bad on give/takeaways.
Making us in fact a three point underdog on average in each game.

The only holdover from the offensive line is Hamilton which is one of the reasons Kupers dad states at the orangemane is why they are not as good at zoneblocking. They just lack the experience.

And then we have the insane rb injury situation.
Which I believe, the idea was to make us more pass oriented before the season. But I dont think it wold be too much at the expense of the running game. Our biggest plays has always been to a great degree off playaction designs.
I just think the idea was to become balanced. Let the pass open up the run and the run open up the pass.
And then we have the youth which really is never to underestimated.
Young players always make a few mistakes for every great play.
I just dont think scheming is to fault as much as other factors. A few games like the Oakland loss was bad, but even that could have worked with some better execution.

But all in all the future is set at the offensive line. Esp tackle.
The qb, TE, Wr positions are top ten perhaps top five in the league.
And what to do with Hillis?
And that is not even considering Cutler taking another step forward, because if he does, watch out Canton!

I just think we are being set up for the years ahead. It is just a feeling I get.

Now, that depends a lot on the defense to get at least average. We all have ranted there.

All in all, the future is bright. This offense will only get better and if we get a real rb we could be scoring like Vermeils KC and the other great offenses in league history. Not to mention our own SB years, though sadly we will never see another TD again I guess.

Hi Harold :welcome: to the conversation :D

We could score every play if the players executed more. No matter what it all goes back to the players, they are on the field. We could put Tim Crowder on Randy Moss, then say if only he would have ran a little faster he could have covered him. It actually would be Crowders fault because he didn't do the job asked of him. But we both know who ever was in charge that day really is to blame for expecting to much out of Crowder. Asking him to do something he couldn't do.

The example is a little drastic I know, But the point holds true, it is the coaches job to put the players in the best position to succeed. They can only try and do what is asked of them, Cutler can only throw the ball to receivers who are running the routs they are supposed to run. If the defensive scheme is set to stop what their doing, there really isn’t much they can do . IMO it falls back on the coaches. That is unless guys aren't doing what their told. I'm sure some of that is going on too..


PS, I hope they give Hillis a shot at HB next year. He really impressed me

[Shazam!]

On Sunday, I think FCS will be happy as the Broncos represent as Division Champs. All will be forgotten, and half the League will wish they were in Denver's position.

[omac]

Your right, everything looks worse after a bad loss. It’s one thing when you have 1 or 2 bad losses a season, we seem to have one every 3rd game or so.

In general, I agree with your points and your approaches. We just have a different idea of where the offense should go, given the injury problems we have. You lean more towards taking more deep shots and looking for even more ways to get the ball to our receivers; maybe that's what this season's come to with our injuries. I'm hoping the Broncos force much more running plays, even if they will most likely be ineffective and cost us downs, to try to avoid good defenses setting up against us like the Panthers did.

[omac]

On Sunday, I think FCS will be happy as the Broncos represent as Division Champs. All will be forgotten, and half the League will wish they were in Denver's position.

We have to beat the Bills first. Remember, early in the season, they were playing great football. Hopefully, Lossman will be under center.

Tampa's coming off of a loss, so they'll want to beat up SD pretty bad. If Gruden were coaching KC instead of Herm, no way they would've lost that game to SD. The only thing with Tampa is that though their consistent, they don't have a lot of firepower in their offense, so this is not a sure thing.

[haroldthebarrel]

Hi Harold :welcome: to the conversation :D

We could score every play if the players executed more. No matter what it all goes back to the players, they are on the field. We could put Tim Crowder on Randy Moss, then say if only he would have ran a little faster he could have covered him. It actually would be Crowders fault because he didn't do the job asked of him. But we both know who ever was in charge that day really is to blame for expecting to much out of Crowder. Asking him to do something he couldn't do.

The example is a little drastic I know, But the point holds true, it is the coaches job to put the players in the best position to succeed. They can only try and do what is asked of them, Cutler can only throw the ball to receivers who are running the routs they are supposed to run. If the defensive scheme is set to stop what their doing, there really isn’t much they can do . IMO it falls back on the coaches. That is unless guys aren't doing what their told. I'm sure some of that is going on too..


PS, I hope they give Hillis a shot at HB next year. He really impressed me

Did you ever see some of the games through another camera?
Would be interesting to see how many receivers he misses.

But to be a bit more specific.
I think you are right that Shanahan isnt the inventor he once was. That happens to every artist, scientist and athlete.
But they can reinvent themselves to some extent. That happens by changing things in ways that are new, but most often through better talent and player execution. Remember, Cowher was a bit on the hotseat until Roethlisberger (luckily) fell into their lap- like Cutler did to us.
And I think we will see a little different offense in the future. A more pass oriented offense, but we wont give up on the run.
The matchups are excellent. We have two TEs, three receivers and a great fb/rb in Hillis. That and with the hopeful addition of Alridge next year will give us an opportunity to give any defense a great deal of different fronts, and still be succesful.
But we need to go back to the running game, which I see no reason why we wont. The naked bootlegs have been so masterfully created and executed in the past to the point of it being artful.

But all in all. Shanahan basically created his version of the WCO with the shotgun and ZBS. It isnt reasonable to think he will invent something new.
It is more reasonable to think he will need talent and execution from the players to do his scheme.
And that is basically the end point of my stance.

Having said that, I think you are right that we are somewhat stale in our playcalls. For the last few years a third and middle was basically a 70 percent or more pass from us. Even third and threes were way way more passes than runs for some reason. And this continues this year. You can run on third and three/four once in a while. Sigh!

And where did the slants go? Why do we playaction when they basically commit to the pass all the time?

Your points are valid, though perhaps a bit exaggerated?

I basically end up thinking that the offense exceeded my expectations before the season. With the injuries, youth lack of a decent running back I see so many positive signs for the future I cannot contain my enthusiasm.

Now, we both agree even the highest homerific view of the offense is all moot unless something is done to the defense.

[haroldthebarrel]

We have to beat the Bills first. Remember, early in the season, they were playing great football. Hopefully, Lossman will be under center.

Tampa's coming off of a loss, so they'll want to beat up SD pretty bad. If Gruden were coaching KC instead of Herm, no way they would've lost that game to SD. The only thing with Tampa is that though their consistent, they don't have a lot of firepower in their offense, so this is not a sure thing.

Funny you should say so, but am I the only one who think we must have a bit off focus. We have always had a few letdown games the past few years.

Doesnt it look like the team isnt getting hammered in to be focused on a game at a time. Or like the great ones say, one play at a time?

[fcspikeit]

On Sunday, I think FCS will be happy as the Broncos represent as Division Champs. All will be forgotten, and half the League will wish they were in Denver's position.



I basically end up thinking that the offense exceeded my expectations before the season. With the injuries, youth lack of a decent running back I see so many positive signs for the future I cannot contain my enthusiasm.

Now, we both agree even the highest homerific view of the offense is all moot unless something is done to the defense.

I expect us to have a great game plan for the Bills, That seems to be the theme for this season anyways. But you do realize if we lose this game, and SD beats Tampa we will be playing SD in SD for the chance to go to the playoffs. How many will be expecting us to win that game after losing 2 strait and SD winning 3 in a row?

Giving the division to SD after having a 3 game lead will make for an exciting off season indeed... If our offensive scheme is as it was against the Panthers we will lose to the Bills. Shanahan better find a way to get the receivers open or he better pull another HB out of his ass or this season is going to get ugly real quick.

This game is a must win! Our players better come in to it as such. If I have to hear Shanahan say he didn't do a good job of preparing the players, or getting them ready this week, I am going to throw something threw my TV :D

Right now we are a better team then the Bills, we don't have to play our best ball to beat them. Just freaking show up and hit someone in the mouth!

[Shazam!]

Tampa will step up on Sunday after a bad loss in a game they could have won.

Denver will play well, at least good enough to beat Buffalo.

Buffalo has nothing to play for and after a demoralizing defeat and handing the Bretts the game, coming into another tough environment to play (despite Denver's recent home record,) against a decent Broncos team will be too much for them. It's hard to believe that team started 5-1.

Broncos clinch on Sunday and go into SD maintaining a 3 game lead.

Then threads like this will be gone and we will be speculating on the Playoffs, and how Denver has a shot to win the finale against SD now, as SD will have nothing to play for except evaluating their 2nd string personnel for 2009.

Us Broncos fans are a spoiled bunch... In position to Clinch on Sunday with a great young squad and FINALLY the young (though inexperienced) star QB we have been salivating for since The Great One retired, and STILL some are not happy! I never thought Broncos fans were spoiled as I have heard in the past, now I agree.

[fcspikeit]

Did you ever see some of the games through another camera?
Would be interesting to see how many receivers he misses.


Obviously not, It could be Cutlers fault? from what I have seen that don't seem to be the case. I also haven't seen any of the annalist guys pointing out all the wide open guys Cutler is missing.


But to be a bit more specific.
I think you are right that Shanahan isnt the inventor he once was. That happens to every artist, scientist and athlete.
But they can reinvent themselves to some extent. That happens by changing things in ways that are new, but most often through better talent and player execution. Remember, Cowher was a bit on the hotseat until Roethlisberger (luckily) fell into their lap- like Cutler did to us.
And I think we will see a little different offense in the future. A more pass oriented offense, but we wont give up on the run.
The matchups are excellent. We have two TEs, three receivers and a great fb/rb in Hillis. That and with the hopeful addition of Alridge next year will give us an opportunity to give any defense a great deal of different fronts, and still be succesful.
But we need to go back to the running game, which I see no reason why we wont. The naked bootlegs have been so masterfully created and executed in the past to the point of it being artful.


I hope we don’t give up on the run, in the future or even this year. All I’m saying is we have to find a way to get the play makers we do have the ball. Even with 5 guys in coverage, with our 5 receiving threats, I just can’t believe they can cover everyone. It doesn’t make any sense, Cutler will throw to Sheffler and there will be 3 guys on or right around him. You would expect to see someone running wide open. I’m not saying I could do better, but there has to be an answer. If Cutler had no time like Brady in the SB last year, that would explain things. That’s not the case, so what’s going on? At times there are 3 receivers with in a 10 yard area. The defenders can easily jump or break up the pass.



But all in all. Shanahan basically created his version of the WCO with the shotgun and ZBS. It isnt reasonable to think he will invent something new.
It is more reasonable to think he will need talent and execution from the players to do his scheme.
And that is basically the end point of my stance.


Old, new, I don’t care. Just put a scheme together that works against the defense we are playing. You see it every week, a lousy team will go out and kick the crap out of a much better team, then the next week they are as sucky as ever. Why do you think that is? Is it because the players somehow magically get skill then lose them? No, it’s because the scheme for that week was spot on against that opponent and what they were trying to do. Except for every now and again the best coaches normally get it at least close. Therefore their team is in every game. We have not seen that the last couple years. We have got our asses kicked more in the last few years then I can remember in the whole Shanahan era.

Losing is one thing, getting embarrassed is another. It’s hard to be confident, no matter who you beat, the fear is always there, we might completely forget to show up the next week. I am looking for some Consistence, at least with the bad team they always suck, At times we look like we could play with anyone, It is because of that, I can’t help but expect them to at least be in the game ever week. They have shown what they can do. Who’s job is it to make sure those guys come every week?

Look, I am speaking out of frustration, I know that. I just want to be able to say, the Broncos will beat this lousy 1 win team, and them actually go out and do it. I really want to be able to say, no matter what, our guys will go out and give it their all and fight to the end. We might not win but we always have a slugger’s chance. There’s no way to have faith in a team this inconsistent. When put in the right position, I have seen our players do great things. I can’t help but believe if given the chance they could do the same every week.



Having said that, I think you are right that we are somewhat stale in our playcalls. For the last few years a third and middle was basically a 70 percent or more pass from us. Even third and threes were way way more passes than runs for some reason. And this continues this year. You can run on third and three/four once in a while. Sigh!


Don’t you know, 3rd and short is a passing down, the only time you run the ball on 3rd down is when it’s + 10. Instead of trying a HB screen we’ll give the ball to Tature and he can run right up the gut with head down and both hands wrapped around the ball like were ahead by 10 and he don’t want to fumble



And where did the slants go? Why do we playaction when they basically commit to the pass all the time?


At one point it seemed we ran the slant’s 20 times a game, 3 or 4 times in a row and always on 3rd and short. The defense figured that out, so I guess we took them out of the playbook :confused:



Your points are valid, though perhaps a bit exaggerated?


Agreed :salute:



I basically end up thinking that the offense exceeded my expectations before the season. With the injuries, youth lack of a decent running back I see so many positive signs for the future I cannot contain my enthusiasm.

Now, we both agree even the highest homerific view of the offense is all moot unless something is done to the defense.


There is a lot of room for enthusiasm with this team, if they could show up and play hard from week to week with a good game plan, they could surprise a lot of people this year.

And yes, we will never be a true contender until we get someone with a clue to build our defense. Then of course we might want to give him or her some tools to build with. :D

[Shazam!]

I'd like to see how you would've overreacted when the Broncos were getting shellacked by the NYG, the Skins and Niners in the 80's SBs. You'd probably be calling for John Elway's head.

I got abused when I went back to School on Tuesdays... I stayed home on Monday.

[fcspikeit]

I'd like to see how you would've overreacted when the Broncos were getting shellacked by the NYG, the Skins and Niners in the 80's SBs. You'd probably be calling for John Elway's head.

I got abused when I went back to School on Tuesdays... I stayed home on Monday.

I cried after all 3. I lost a few friends over that, One of my best friends was a 9iners fan. He was making fun of Elway, After they pulled me off, I didn't see much of him.

You couldn't be more wrong with your Elway comment, He was the reason I liked the Broncos. I was calling for Dan, never had an offensive lineman worth a damn Reeves head. :D

[fcspikeit]

Tampa will step up on Sunday after a bad loss in a game they could have won.

Denver will play well, at least good enough to beat Buffalo.

Which to you have more faith in, Tampa rebounding and beating a hungry Bolts team or us beating the struggling Bills?




Us Broncos fans are a spoiled bunch... In position to Clinch on Sunday with a great young squad and FINALLY the young (though inexperienced) star QB we have been salivating for since The Great One retired, and STILL some are not happy! I never thought Broncos fans were spoiled as I have heard in the past, now I agree.

So your happy?

I am spoiled because I expect a solid team effort each week? :laugh:

We could win this game by 30 and no one would be surprised, we could lose this game by 30 and no one would be surprised, tell me I'm wrong.

Well coached teams don't get blown out a 3rd of the time. You can choose to ignore it if you want, but there have been many times this year were our FO had no answer, against teams we should have beat. Shanahan got out coached by a fill in, in Oakland and the perennial loser that is Herm Edwards, both of which have worse teams then ours.

The facts are Shanahan has to step it up along with the players if they don’t want to let this opportunity slip away… Shanny normally rebounds well after a big loss. Maybe he spends more time at the office? I don’t know but I expect the Broncos to beat the Bills at home. I don’t think that’s unreasonable do you? If they lose it will be because someone dropped the ball. There must be accountability. How can you go about getting a solution, if you can’t identify the problem?

[haroldthebarrel]

There is a lot of room for enthusiasm with this team, if they could show up and play hard from week to week with a good game plan, they could surprise a lot of people this year.

And yes, we will never be a true contender until we get someone with a clue to build our defense. Then of course we might want to give him or her some tools to build with. :D

so am i right that your assertion is that our offense is getting predictable with all the pass formations. Should we become less predictable by play more standardly and conservatively?
If you do, I actually agree on all accounts. Is not good when I as a fan can predict the run or pass play with no education and with horrible tv angles.

I see your points about the gameplan.
But when you think of it, it is actually easy to fix. Just get a running back producing the most third and 6, or less. The playaction and the Shanahans naked bootleg in particular is such a thing of beauty.
And if there is something I am comfort in, is that Shanahan isnt stupid.
I just believe he will fix this, and we will be a really great offense again when we find that special back.
Which incidently I am so thorn on having Hillis at rb, since he is such a match up problem at fb. And we basically just need a Mike Anderson or Olandis Gary to become really good again.


Shanahans views and results on defense? Hmmmmmmmmpf!

[Shazam!]

"Denver never had an offensive lineman worth a damn..."

Kartz and Bishop were actually pretty decent.

[fcspikeit]

"Denver never had an offensive lineman worth a damn..."

Kartz and Bishop were actually pretty decent.

Actually I said Reeves never had an offensive lineman worth a damn.

If I remember correctly, neither were on the team in 89. I could be wrong about that...

I remember Bishop, he was pretty decent, I don't remember Kartz, either I never thought he was worth a damn or he was a bit before my time? Beings I can't even place him I am leaning toward the later. Do you know when both retired? and did Reeves actually get them on this team? I could always look it up. Not that its that big a deal...

[Shazam!]

Bishop played from 1980 to 1989 or 1990.

Kartz played from 86 and was Denver's last C before Tommy N.

I'm not saying they were HoFers, but they were pretty good. Bishop was the best OLinemen on the Broncos during the days of our asskickings by the NFC Champions. He went to a couple of Pro Bowls I'm pretty sure. Someone like Top could descibe them better than I can.

The big problem I remember was on D. Greg Kragen, Denver's NT weighed in at barely 260. How such a small DLine generate pressure on the HUGE OLines of the NYG, Skins and Niners was a problem.

[fcspikeit]

so am i right that your assertion is that our offense is getting predictable with all the pass formations. Should we become less predictable by play more standardly and conservatively?
If you do, I actually agree on all accounts. Is not good when I as a fan can predict the run or pass play with no education and with horrible tv angles.



That is my main point yes, we are predictable, The defense figures us out and Shanahan has no answers. And you’re right, it don't seem very hard to figure us out. It has got really bad the last couple years. Shanahan always used to have an ace in the hole. He would pull some trick out of his bag and catch the defense off balance. It just seems like on 3rd down we try the exact same thing we have tried in the last few games. We could do a flee flicker or halfback pass, anything. At some point we have to take chances, when you know playing into their strength isn’t going to work because they have been stopping you, there has to be a plan B.




I see your points about the gameplan.
But when you think of it, it is actually easy to fix. Just get a running back producing the most third and 6, or less. The playaction and the Shanahans naked bootleg in particular is such a thing of beauty.
And if there is something I am comfort in, is that Shanahan isnt stupid.
I just believe he will fix this, and we will be a really great offense again when we find that special back.
Which incidently I am so thorn on having Hillis at rb, since he is such a match up problem at fb. And we basically just need a Mike Anderson or Olandis Gary to become really good again.


Shanahans views and results on defense? Hmmmmmmmmpf!


I do not think Shanahan is stupid, I’m sure he is smarter then both of us when it comes to football, But it don’t take a football mastermind to see what he is doing didn’t work. There will always be excuses why it didn’t work, the bottom line is you must find a way to win. Or at least be in the game all the way through.

Do you think we would have won those SB’s with a Mike Anderson instead of TD? We have had a few mike Anderson types and Shanahan wasn’t able to constantly win with them. Sure he got more out of them then anyone else could have. That’s not my point, when we played the better teams when it mattered most like Indy and Pitt they crushed us! We haven’t been a real contender since TD left.

I don’t know if we will ever find another TD? Are we destined to win 10 games a year just to lose it all when it matters most because we don’t have the best back in the NFL? That could be the case, unless shanahan finds a way to put a winning formula together that isn’t build solely around running the ball.
Either that or he better find a way to get a great back in here.

On the NFLN Billick was talking about how easy it is now to game study your opponent. Everything is right there on the computer for every team, They could click on the folder for any one players and there was a video right there. You could click on 3rd down plays, and a video every 3rd down play they have called for the entire years was there. They could click on a single WR, then download the footage to a dvd and give that to the corner who would be covering him. I don’t know how long ago they went to this system but I believe it was in the last 4 or 5 years. Maybe it has something to do with why his offenses seem so easy to figure out?

None of that matters really, the why isn’t as important as just getting the job done on the field on a consistent bases. Either he can find a way or he can’t. As I type he has not found a way to do that.

I like shanahan, I really do, I admit, it’s because of what he can do for this team. When the time comes he can’t consistently bring that anymore. It will be time to get someone who can.

[broncofaninfla]

The big problem I remember was on D. Greg Kragen, Denver's NT weighed in at barely 260. How such a small DLine generate pressure on the HUGE OLines of the NYG, Skins and Niners was a problem.

Kragen was a STUD. He was small but he was a true bulldog NT. Despite his size he was still one of the best of his time and way better than anybody we currently have.

[fcspikeit]

Bishop played from 1980 to 1989 or 1990.

Kartz played from 86 and was Denver's last C before Tommy N.

I'm not saying they were HoFers, but they were pretty good. Bishop was the best OLinemen on the Broncos during the days of our asskickings by the NFC Champions. He went to a couple of Pro Bowls I'm pretty sure. Someone like Top could descibe them better than I can.

The big problem I remember was on D. Greg Kragen, Denver's NT weighed in at barely 260. How such a small DLine generate pressure on the HUGE OLines of the NYG, Skins and Niners was a problem.

In those days, our Defense was statistically better then our offense.

I always liked Greg and Simon, Karl Meklenburg (SP?) was my favorite Bronco defender. He made a lot big plays when they were needed the most. Of course I really liked Atwater and Smith too.

[broncofaninfla]

In those days, our Defense was statistically better then our offense.

I always liked Greg and Simon, Karl Meklenburg (SP?) was my favorite Bronco defender. He made a lot big plays when they were needed the most. Of course I really liked Atwater and Smith too.

Man I miss those guys! We had a lot of play makers in that bunch. They were good and they were proud to be Broncos.

[fcspikeit]

Man I miss those guys! We had a lot of play makers in that bunch. They were good and they were proud to be Broncos.

To me they were the definition of heart. Karl was not that fast but he faught is butt off every play. I remember him knocking the ball lose a couple times at the end of the game to give the ball back to John. They were great team players..

I see a lot of them in Hillis, Larson, and Woodyard. I want guys we all can be proud off. Guys who might not be the best in the NFL at their position, but they never quit and really know what the word team means.